<Mini 435> Julius Caesar Mafia, Player Abandoned


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Post Post #150 (ISO) » Sun May 06, 2007 11:32 am

Post by Miztef »

oh my, we have a situation going on here! exciting.

I'm seeing the light in phoebus's arguement, thanks to his well-written post 144. So, for now I will
unvote
. I'm not sure I agree with the reason to lynch guardian, but I do see why phoebus would choose to.

Here's what I got:

Not good lynches


Lawrencelot
Vandamien
Miztef


-all have claimed and each claim makes sense (maybe it's a bit selfish to put myself in there, but that's where I am so, meh)

Neutral


eteocles
nightfall
emptyger
patrick


-none of these players have been under any serious suspicion

possible lynches


Illumina
Ryan
Sacastro


-Slight accusations have been put on these players, but no one has really started a bandwagon on them or anything.

Likely lynches


Guardian
Phoebus


-both have been under heavy suspicion, and have come close to a possible lynch.


Is that about where we are at? If so, I think some more examination of the "possible lynches" is my next move.
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Post Post #151 (ISO) » Sun May 06, 2007 12:28 pm

Post by Guardian »

I disagree with most of your analysis: I think allowing
unvote vote: emptyger
and nightfall to get a lynch day one without posting at all is a horrendous idea, you and VanDamien are
claimed
non vanillas,
you are not anywhere near
to being confirmed bad lynches in my book, and making Phoebus and I centers of attention because we were near lynch makes absolutely no sense.
Do not lynch me.
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Post Post #152 (ISO) » Sun May 06, 2007 1:34 pm

Post by Illumina »

Poebus:
Phoebus wrote: I don't like Guardian's behaviour because it does not seem pro town. That is why vote is on him currently.
Ok. It seemed to me that you weren't sure he was scum or not, and voted him solely because his restriction was annoying. In fact, you said so:
Phoebus wrote: my stand is crystal clear I believe.
1] Don't like the restriction.
2] Could do without Guardian
3] Have no concrete information about Guardian being scum (refer to points 1 and 2]
Phoebus wrote:this day 1
we have nothing better to go on
the restriction is annoying

it could potentially be fake
it would be very annoying if the restriction carried on indefinitely.
Wanting to vote someone just because of an annoying restriction alone is bad pro-town play. It is also a convincing reason to vote for you, regardless of your behavior. The real debate here is whether Guardian is scummy enough to warrant killing day 1, and I would argue that isn't the case. I'm not giving him a free pass because of the restriction, but I haven't seen convincing reasons to lynch him rather than waiting and possibly trying to confirm him later.

The degree to which you've been transparent about this makes me question whether you're scum, even though I think your reasons have been poor. I'm going to
Unvote: Phoebus
for now and give you a
FoS
. You need to get beyond the fact that you dislike the post restriction -- it's bad play, doesn't help the town, and doesn't make you look pro-town either.
Phoebus wrote:*All* actions of a pro town player are useful.
I'm going to disagree on this. What if a cop outs himself accidentally?

Mitzef:

I also disagree with your reasoning. As Guardian pointed out, you have claimed but are not cleared. Are you trying to show who you think is likely to be lynched, or rank who would make the best lynch candidates? (hint: either way, I disagree with your list =P)
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Post Post #153 (ISO) » Sun May 06, 2007 1:57 pm

Post by Miztef »

well, I assumed people would disagree with my list, but I'm surprised that you focused on the people I said were "not good lynches". I would have thought more attention would be payed to the likely to be lynched candidates. I am basically trying to scope out where everyone is at with their analysis. I'd say it's a fairly good estimate.

To clarify, the list is about where I think everyone is about at overall in likelyhood of being lynched.

I agree that vandamien is probably more suited in the neutral category though.

@guardian: You and phoebus are and have been centre's of attention for a while now. So, ya, it makes perfect sense. I don't even understand what you are saying with your defence on emptyger and nightfall, I put them as neutral and your saying that I'm assuming they are gonna get lynched? I just don't get it.

@Illumina: After my claim, most people seemed to agree I was more likely pro-town, and therefore, I don't see myself as being lynched today, unless I royally screw up and make you guys believe I'm scum.
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Post Post #154 (ISO) » Sun May 06, 2007 3:05 pm

Post by Illumina »

I see. Don't take this the wrong way, but I think it would be more productive to post your reasons for why various people should or shouldn't be lynched. A likely lynch is not synonymous with a good lynch choice, after all.

Insofar as its an effort to keep track, though, I'm fine with any list you want to make :).
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Post Post #155 (ISO) » Sun May 06, 2007 4:06 pm

Post by ryan »

Sarcastro wrote:
Miztef wrote:Ryan and Sarcastro's little disagreement doesn't seem scummy to me. Just a quirky misunderstanding. Ryan does not want to lynch anyone while people are not participating and sacastro took it as ryan not wanting to contribute.
No, it wasn't a misunderstanding. I know exactly what Ryan said, but I believe that his
refusal to "lynch"
(which is ridiculous, because nobody's even close to a lynch) is really just an excuse for not contributing.
That is completely out of context and you know it. I never refused to lynch anyone and I'm not making an excuse, I agree that there are motives for a few people but nothing that has jumped out at me and said "vote them" give me a reason to vote for somebody and I'll take it under consideration.
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Post Post #156 (ISO) » Sun May 06, 2007 4:24 pm

Post by Sarcastro »

I must admit I'm a little confused about Miztef's list. Why are Illumina and I in the "possible lynches" category? I don't remember any accusations against either of us, at least not since Guardian attacked me near the beginning for calling him out on his vote for Miztef.

In any case, I don't really think a list of "most likely lynches" is all that helpful, Miztef. No offense, but as Illumina said, a list of who you think should or shouldn't be lynched would probably be more helpful.
ryan wrote:
Sarcastro wrote:No, it wasn't a misunderstanding. I know exactly what Ryan said, but I believe that his
refusal to "lynch"
(which is ridiculous, because nobody's even close to a lynch) is really just an excuse for not contributing.
That is completely out of context and you know it. I never refused to lynch anyone and I'm not making an excuse, I agree that there are motives for a few people but nothing that has jumped out at me and said "vote them" give me a reason to vote for somebody and I'll take it under consideration.
ryan wrote:Or I don't want to lynch somebody with two people not even voting. :roll:
What’s out of context? Your justification for “hang[ing] tight with [your] random vote” was that you didn’t want to lynch anybody. Nobody ever asked you to lynch anybody. The fact that two people are lurking is not a good justification for not contributing, and I don’t understand why you think that simply insisting that it is proves the conclusions I drew from it incorrect.

You used a weak reason to justify not contributing. That, to me, looks an awful lot like scum not wanting to make a decision about what to say about his buddy, or perhaps about which pro-town player would be easier to lynch. Wishy-washiness is a scumtell, and you’re extremely guilty of it. You can complain all you want that I’m taking what you said out of context, but that doesn’t change the fact that you used a weak reason to justify not contributing. Why don't you actually commit to a decision? There are seven pages worth of reasons, and yet you can't find a single convincing reason to vote for anyone? Excuse me if I'm a little incredulous.
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Post Post #157 (ISO) » Sun May 06, 2007 4:52 pm

Post by ryan »

Sarcastro: Please tell me who else hasn't stuck with their random vote
[i]Please remove your head from your ass before you vote.[/i]
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Post Post #158 (ISO) » Sun May 06, 2007 5:13 pm

Post by Sarcastro »

What do you mean? You can simply look at the votecount. As far as I can tell only, you, Eteocles and VanDamien all still have your random votes. While I would encourage all three of you to move on to voting for people who you actually find scummy (or justifying your existing votes), I don't see how this is relevant. Don't try to turn my argument into "Ryan is scummy because he won't change his vote", because that's not what it is at all. It's about what you said and how you said it. Neither Eteocles nor VanDamien felt the need to say that they weren't prepared to lynch someone while two people were lurking, and neither did they use this as justification for non-contribution.
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Post Post #159 (ISO) » Sun May 06, 2007 10:08 pm

Post by Lawrencelot »

About Miztef's list: it's not inaccurate if it shows who currently has the most chance of lynching, but I agree with the others that it isn't helpful, you'd better make a lynch of who you think should be lynched, with arguments.
It's a blatant restriction/requirement.
Yes. He could get a powerful bonus out of it.

There are 3 situations as I see it.
One was the one above.

Another is: Fake a ludicrous restriction and establish trust in the town's eyes because of the reason that: scum could just not be hampered with such a restriction.
The statement is true to a certain extent where it can be used by scum to be established as an alibi and be used in exactly this same manner/effect.

Third scenario: Horrible restriction. Mediocre power/bonus.
Given the fact that all power roles have 50% chance of occurring at this time, that makes him annoying, as well as potentiall useless.
The first situation is one I find likely, and you don't. I can understand that you don't find it likely, but from previous posts I understood that you don't even find it possible. That's one small reason to vote you. The second situation is one that I don't find likely, and you do. I still find it possible, but the chance that he's faking it is very small in my eyes, I totally don't see a reason why Guardian would fake his restriction. The third situation I also find possible, maybe as much as you. But if this situation was correct, I wouldn't think it was a reason to vote Guardian, as a power role with 50% chance of working with an annyoing restriction is still better than a townie. If you'd vote Guardian for this, you could even vote all townies, it doesn't make sense.
this day 1

we have nothing better to go on

the restriction is annoying

it could potentially be fake

it would be very annoying if the restriction carried on indefinitely.
We do have better things to go on. There is no deadline, and the random voting phase was over remarkably quickly. The restriction could be annyoing to you, but even so it's no reason to vote for someone. The fact that it could be fake, is something I find possible, but not very likely. If it was carried on indefinitly it would be annyoing, but again, that wouldn't be a reason to vote him.

To me, your only good argument to vote Guardian is that he could be faking his restriction. So we would have to discuss about that. I don't think it's likely, because he did so from the beginning of the game, and I don't believe Guardian likes this restriction, and the mod used 5 red words when Guardian forgot that.
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Post Post #160 (ISO) » Mon May 07, 2007 1:01 am

Post by Miztef »

well, on to better things it seems.

about the ryan vs. sacastro argument:
This just seems like bickering between 2 townies. It would be nice if ryan would contribute more, but it isn't really screaming scummy to me, I think it would be better just to back off of him for a while and see what we get from ryan.

About Phoebus: I agree with lawrencelot's opinion about your lynching guardian. It is not very likely that guardian fabricated the restriction to me. The mod has already pointed out that emptyger is not posting for "good reason" (probably another post restriction). [post 118]

However, lawrencelot's last line about the 5 red words has already been solved. The mod stated it had no relevance to the game. [post 100]
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Post Post #161 (ISO) » Mon May 07, 2007 1:04 am

Post by ryan »

Sarcastro wrote:What do you mean? You can simply look at the votecount. As far as I can tell only, you, Eteocles and VanDamien all still have your random votes. While I would encourage all three of you to move on to voting for people who you actually find scummy (or justifying your existing votes), I don't see how this is relevant. Don't try to turn my argument into "Ryan is scummy because he won't change his vote", because that's not what it is at all. It's about what you said and how you said it. Neither Eteocles nor VanDamien felt the need to say that they weren't prepared to lynch someone while two people were lurking, and neither did they use this as justification for non-contribution.
I'm not going to continue arguing in this post, simply put I'm not gonna switch my vote when there are two people lurking and not posting, I find it interesting that I make a statement that you jump down my throat about, yet two people haven't said a dang thing and you seem to be silent. :? Why vote and start a potential lynch with two people not saying a dang thing? You want to call that scummy, do what ya gotta do but I'm calling it "waiting till all the evidence is in".
[i]Please remove your head from your ass before you vote.[/i]
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Post Post #162 (ISO) » Mon May 07, 2007 1:35 am

Post by Eteocles »

Meh. Too many things to comment on right now... I'll be back to make a full post later.
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Post Post #163 (ISO) » Mon May 07, 2007 3:33 am

Post by Guardian »

I agree with
unvote vote: ryan
, the two not posting are the weak link(s), and
we definitely need some contributions
from them before we can reasonably decide upon the best lynch candidate for today; this is a bad reason for ryan himself not to contribute, though.
Do not lynch me.
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Post Post #164 (ISO) » Mon May 07, 2007 3:36 am

Post by ryan »

Guardian wrote:I agree with
unvote vote: ryan
, the two not posting are the weak link(s), and
we definitely need some contributions
from them before we can reasonably decide upon the best lynch candidate for today; this is a bad reason for ryan himself not to contribute, though.
I'm posting aren't I? I'm asking questions, I'm looking into possible scum, how is that not helping? I don't understand you two, I never said I wouldn't help try and find the scum in this game, yet you two are constantly claiming I'm not interested in playing the game and helping. I'm 110% on board in finding scum, hell maybe I'll just vote one of you two, the constant nagging and whining is either my ex wife speaking through one of you or a big bag of mafia scum. There's a claim for ya both :?
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Post Post #165 (ISO) » Mon May 07, 2007 3:54 am

Post by Guardian »

I did not make any claim
as to whether you were or were not in fact contributing, I just stated that them not is a bad reason for you (or anyone else) not to contribute;
unvote vote Nightfall
.
Do not lynch me.
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Post Post #166 (ISO) » Mon May 07, 2007 3:55 am

Post by ryan »

What's with the vote switching? First me and than 20 minutes later you jump to Nightfall? Explain that reasoning for me
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Post Post #167 (ISO) » Mon May 07, 2007 4:01 am

Post by Guardian »

For the last time,
unvote vote: ryan
, and everyone else, pay attention to my
FOS
s if any more appear,
not my votes, please, thanks
.
Do not lynch me.
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Post Post #168 (ISO) » Mon May 07, 2007 4:05 am

Post by ryan »

I've searched the net with no success, WHAT the hell does FOS mean?
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Post Post #169 (ISO) » Mon May 07, 2007 4:12 am

Post by Miztef »

ryan wrote:I've searched the net with no success, WHAT the hell does FOS mean?
"Finger of Suspicion", it is a term used to claim that you suspect a player, but are not voting for them. check the wiki for more info.
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Post Post #170 (ISO) » Mon May 07, 2007 4:14 am

Post by ryan »

Miztef wrote:
ryan wrote:I've searched the net with no success, WHAT the hell does FOS mean?
"Finger of Suspicion", it is a term used to claim that you suspect a player, but are not voting for them. check the wiki for more info.
GOOD lord, thank you much. Sometimes I think this forum gets WAY into using freaking terms instead of just saying, "I think it could be you but I'm not sure" I mean YIKES, just say it already :D
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Post Post #171 (ISO) » Mon May 07, 2007 7:55 am

Post by Sarcastro »

ryan wrote:I'm not going to continue arguing in this post, simply put I'm not gonna switch my vote when there are two people lurking and not posting, I find it interesting that I make a statement that you jump down my throat about, yet two people haven't said a dang thing and you seem to be silent. :? Why vote and start a potential lynch with two people not saying a dang thing? You want to call that scummy, do what ya gotta do but I'm calling it "waiting till all the evidence is in".
Ryan, for the last time, the fact that other people are contributing is not a good reason not to contribute yourself. It's pretty difficult to find a game where, on day one, not a single person was lurking at all. In fact, this game has extremely good participation compared to some other games on the site. All we can do is let the mod do his job. Nightfall and EmpTyger (or their replacements) will post when they post, and we'll just have to wait.

I realise that you're still posting and commenting. That's good, and it does make you less scummy in my eyes. However, my suspicion stems simply from what you said in those two posts - that you didn't want to change your vote or lynch someone while two people were lurking so heavily. It is simply the fact that it looked (and still looks, despite your continued activity) like you were just using the fact that we have two lurkers to avoid committing to Guardian, Phoebus, or someone else. It's generally a lot easier for scum to make more peripheral contributions (asking questions, pointing out minor scumtells, etc) than it is for them to actually commit to thinking that one person is scummy enough to be lynched.

I don't expect to actually convince
you
of your scuminess, and I don't blame you if you don't want to argue about this anymore. I'm just trying to let you understand exactly what I have a problem with and why I think you're scummy. You don't have to agree.
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Post Post #172 (ISO) » Mon May 07, 2007 9:33 am

Post by EmpTyger »

Salvete omnes, et mea culpa for the absence- real life has been uglybusy this past week. The worst of it is over, and I’ll be completely unconstrained by Thursday, although I still don’t really have time to even begin to analyze VII pages. Apologies again.
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Post Post #173 (ISO) » Mon May 07, 2007 9:43 am

Post by VanDamien »

Phoebus wrote:*All* actions of a pro town player are useful.
If you don't like what I'm doing now and decide to get rid of me, my thoughts, people's reactions will all form the basis on which to proceed in later days.
This is just simply not true. If a townie player acts especially scummy, then reactions to that diminish greatly in value, as other townies are going to call them on it, and press.
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Post Post #174 (ISO) » Mon May 07, 2007 10:18 am

Post by Phoebus »

This is just simply your opinion.


Who gets to quantify what is scummy, slightly scummy, horribly scummy or especially scummy?



As for a cop accidentally revealing himself, it will force reactions as well.
There are always reactions.

Strange example to give though...whoever it was that mentioned that.
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