Newbie 384: All over 'cept the finger-pointing!

[thedocsalive]

I know it's a risky play,

but as I said before, worse things have happened.

I really don't like that wording (see underlined).
Is it just me?

Well, if he placed the vote knowing that it was a third vote, it is a risky play. The pro is that it can generate discussion, and the con is that it runs of the chance of someone accidentally lynching him. That's a risk, isn't it?

I feel like a lot of newbie games end quickly because of bandwagons like this: a newer player does something questionable in the first few pages, the rest of the thread ultimately deems it unforgiveable, lynches him, he shows up innocent, and the town's in lylo day two.

1. How do we 100% sure he's new, and hasn't played elsewhere, and knew what he was doing?

That's a fair point; I don't know exactly how new he is. All I know is that he's a newbie on mafiascum, so it's possible that he's truly new to the game (whereas I know the IC's, Yos2 and I, are sufficiently experienced).

thedocsali8ve: I do appriciate your caution in not putting truncator at -1 just yet. However, just because he's new, dosn't mean we should just ignore anti-town behavior on his part; how else can we figure out his alignment?

Yos2: I'm arguing that his vote there isn't as anti-town as you might believe. It's certainly not typical play, but it's just as likely (if not moreso) to be risky (or, if you don't like that word, questionable) town play than scum play. The third vote itself isn't great for the town, but do you really believe that a mafioso would put on a third vote early, put himself in the spotlight, and hope for a speedlynch?

[MeMe]

Vote Count

:

truncator

(2):

Windfish, pickemgenius

pickemgenius

(1):

truncator

Albert B. Rampage

(1):

notehead

Windfish

(1):

Albert B. Rampage

notehead

(1):

thedocsalive

not voting

(1):

Yosarian2

Four'll do it.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Unvote, vote Yosarian2

I don't like him much, and would readily lynch him today unless something unexpected happens.

He acts defensive, then quickly jumps on the offensive. He states the obvious. Also, as an side-reason, he is more chatty than his other games, as pickem has said.

[pickemgenius]

Unvote, vote Yosarian2

I don't like him much, and would readily lynch him today unless something unexpected happens.

He acts defensive, then quickly jumps on the offensive. He states the obvious. Also, as an side-reason, he is more chatty than his other games, as pickem has said.

Yos is usually pretty quiet.

From what i've seen from Yos, is that he's pretty quiet, and straightforward.

[WindFish]

He acts defensive, then quickly jumps on the offensive. He states the obvious. Also, as an side-reason, he is more chatty than his other games, as pickem has said.

Do you consider those actions to be pro-scum? To be anti-town?

What was Yosarian's alignment in those games where you claim he was less chatty? Could you to link to them so I could see?

[pickemgenius]

Newbie 334

[Albert B. Rampage]

He acts defensive, then quickly jumps on the offensive. He states the obvious. Also, as an side-reason, he is more chatty than his other games, as pickem has said.

Do you consider those actions to be pro-scum? To be anti-town?

Definitely scummy.

[Yosarian2]

Truncator, did you know you were putting him at -1 when you voted?

Yes. I also knew that someone would change their vote and I hoped it would be before the 4th vote came in. I wanted to see who was quick to change. It may have been risky, but you don't always get the information you need by sitting on your thumb.

There's no way you could have "known" that.

If you KNEW you were casting the third vote, then WHY DIDN'T YOU SAY SO at least???

[pickemgenius]

Truncator, did you know you were putting him at -1 when you voted?

Yes. I also knew that someone would change their vote and I hoped it would be before the 4th vote came in. I wanted to see who was quick to change. It may have been risky, but you don't always get the information you need by sitting on your thumb.

There's no way you could have "known" that.

QFT

[Yosarian2]

Unvote, vote Yosarian2

I don't like him much, and would readily lynch him today unless something unexpected happens.

He acts defensive, then quickly jumps on the offensive. He states the obvious. Also, as an side-reason, he is more chatty than his other games, as pickem has said.

"More chatty then my other games?"



I'm quite often one of the more active people in whatever game I'm in; not always, I wasn't in that one other newbie game I played in, but usually. How many of my games have you looked at to come to the conclusion that I'm "more chatty here then in other games"?

And yes, when someone attacks me, I defend myself, and when I see someone do something scummy, I go on the offensive. That's how the game is supposed to be played! Geez. Pro-town players NEED to go on the offensive, because that's the ONLY WAY TO FIND SCUM. And everyone should defend themselves whenver attacked, that's just common sense.

Everything you're attacking me for (defending myself, posting a lot, going on the offensive to try to put pressure on someone who looks scummy, and "stating the obveous") are all EXACTALLY what EVERY pro-town person should do in EVERY game. If you want to find scum, look for people who aren't doing those things.

[pickemgenius]

Unvote, vote Yosarian2

I don't like him much, and would readily lynch him today unless something unexpected happens.

He acts defensive, then quickly jumps on the offensive. He states the obvious. Also, as an side-reason, he is more chatty than his other games, as pickem has said.

And yes, when someone attacks me, I defend myself, and when I see someone do something scummy, I go on the offensive. That's how the game is supposed to be played! Geez. Pro-town players NEED to go on the offensive, because that's the ONLY WAY TO FIND SCUM. And everyone should defend themselves whenver attacked, that's just common sense.

QFT X 3



:good posting X2:

[Albert B. Rampage]

Not quite, Yos. You sounded over-defensive when WindFish made a mistake. Then the next post you submitted, you stated the obvious, and FoS'd me with questions instead of explanations. I find that scummy. Your reactions ?

[Yosarian2]

Not quite, Yos. You sounded over-defensive when WindFish made a mistake. Then the next post you submitted, you stated the obvious, and FoS'd me with questions instead of explanations. I find that scummy. Your reactions ?

Um

WindFish attacked me, and I pointed out his mistake. That's not "overly defensive", that's exactally the right amount of defensive. That's what every pro-town player should do; if someone attacks you, you should point out the holes in their logic. Which I did.

And I FOS'd you because your move didn't seem to make much sense to me at the time. You voted windfish, even though windfish seemed to be saying the exact same thing that you were, that we shouldn't end the day so quickly with a rapid bandwagon. The apparent contradiction in your vote seemed odd, and possibly scummy to me, so I fos'd you and demanded an explination. I never really got a good one from you on that issue, btw.

And now you're voting for me...because I FOS'd you?

[Albert B. Rampage]

Um

WindFish attacked me, and I pointed out his mistake. That's not "overly defensive", that's exactally the right amount of defensive. That's what every pro-town player should do; if someone attacks you, you should point out the holes in their logic. Which I did.

Way to go to misrepresenting facts. WindFish did

not

attack you. He asked why we haven't heard of you because he didn't see your post. You responded in what seemed like an overreaction to me.

And I FOS'd you because your move didn't seem to make much sense to me at the time. You voted windfish, even though windfish seemed to be saying the exact same thing that you were, that we shouldn't end the day so quickly with a rapid bandwagon. The apparent contradiction in your vote seemed odd, and possibly scummy to me, so I fos'd you and demanded an explination. I never really got a good one from you on that issue, btw.

Here are the posts made.

Whoa, putting pickem at lynch-1 out of the gate? Is it bandwagon?

And why haven't we heard from Yosarian?

I'm going to swing my vote over to alter the pressure balance.

Unvote: Yosarian2
Vote: truncator

Remember guys, short days hurt the town.

With that,

Unvote, vote WindFish

Granted, we both unvoted for the same reason, but I would not put someone in the same predicament I just got someone out of. Therefore I didn't put my vote at the same place WindFish did. Why I put my vote on WF was a) There were no votes on him at the time and b) Some fling of the moment with his pressure-balance sentence, which he clarified.

And now you're voting for me...because I FOS'd you?

You are a scumbag because you misrepresent people and their intentions, which are both very strong indicators of your scumminess.

[Yosarian2]

Way to go to misrepresenting facts. WindFish did

not

attack you. He asked why we haven't heard of you because he didn't see your post. You responded in what seemed like an overreaction to me.

This is an over-reaction?

And why haven't we heard from Yosarian?

Um, I posted just two posts before you did, windfish...

I think it was a perfectly normal response to an odd question, myself.

And I FOS'd you because your move didn't seem to make much sense to me at the time. You voted windfish, even though windfish seemed to be saying the exact same thing that you were, that we shouldn't end the day so quickly with a rapid bandwagon. The apparent contradiction in your vote seemed odd, and possibly scummy to me, so I fos'd you and demanded an explination. I never really got a good one from you on that issue, btw.

Here are the posts made.

Whoa, putting pickem at lynch-1 out of the gate? Is it bandwagon?

And why haven't we heard from Yosarian?

I'm going to swing my vote over to alter the pressure balance.

Unvote: Yosarian2
Vote: truncator

Remember guys, short days hurt the town.

With that,

Unvote, vote WindFish

Granted, we both unvoted for the same reason, but I would not put someone in the same predicament I just got someone out of. Therefore I didn't put my vote at the same place WindFish did. Why I put my vote on WF was a) There were no votes on him at the time and b) Some fling of the moment with his pressure-balance sentence, which he clarified.
[/quote]

The thing is that, you said you were in favor of avoiding short days. He has just managed to do a large part of saving the town from having short days, by pointing out that we were now at -1; if he had wanted a short day, he could have just lurked and waited and hope some other newbie voted without thinking. And you vote for him in the very same post, for some odd reason that didn't (and still dosn't) make sense to me.

Is that a big deal? No, it's not really. Which is why I just FOS'd you instead of voting for you. There is so little information day 1, that any minor thing I see that's wierd, I draw attention to, in order to try and advance the game.

If anyone is over-reacting or being over defensive here, Albert, it's you. I FOS's you and asked you a question because you did something that looked odd to me. I never even voted for you. And you're lashing out at me in response.

You are a scumbag because you misrepresent people and their intentions, which are both very strong indicators of your scumminess.

You were the one that characterised my response to Windfish as a "defense", so I naturally refered to Windfish's question as an "attack". I wasn't trying to say "misrepresent" Windfish, I was just trying to respond to you. If WindFish's "Where's Yos?" comment isn't an attack, then I don't see how you can call my "Um, I just posted" comment a defense, let alone "over-defensive".

Your behavior here is really bothering me. You're acting like you're sure I'm scum, based on absolutly nothing. What, exactally, have I "misrepresented"? Who's "intentions" did I misrepresent to justify your vote on me? And don't use the Windfish thing as an excuse here, becuae that happened after you voted for me, not before.

It's rather ironic that you're misrepresenting me here in order to accuse me of misrepresenting others, and that you're accusing me of being over-defensive while your whole attack on me seems to pretty clearly be a massive over-reaction to a page 2 FOS I made against you.

[Yosarian2]

Bah, messed up the quote tags there, but you get the idea.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Me and WindFish, as well as the other

townies

all agree that short days hurt the town. So what ? That doesn't mean he is town. Besides that, I was fishing (pardon the pun) for a reaction.

In your original "defense", I find it awkward that you took the trouble to start your reply with "Um", the exact same thing you started your major defense to my accusations with.
This has become my 2nd, and slightly stronger tell. The other thing that amused me was that you finished it with "...", maybe signifying annoyance. I think a townie in that situation would just re-quote his post, or make a polite joke about the mistake, or perhaps ask a question to WF.

Excuse me, Yos, but I don't see the irony. What I see, is possible scum that I would like to continue to interact with.

[Yosarian2]

Me and WindFish, as well as the other

townies

all agree that short days hurt the town. So what ? That doesn't mean he is town. Besides that, I was fishing (pardon the pun) for a reaction.

(shrug) Like I said, it wasn't a big deal, just something that didn't make much sense to me. And still dosn't, honestly, although I've got no problem with fishing for reactiosn this early, I don't quite see why you picked him. Anyway, I don't see why that makes ME scummy, for pointing out some wierd behavior in your play; obveously I was fishing for reactiosn myself.

In your original "defense", I find it awkward that you took the trouble to start your reply with "Um", the exact same thing you started your major defense to my accusations with.

So, what's wrong with that? It's just an expression I use when the person I'm talking to is overlooking the obveous, I suppose; I often say things like "Um" or "(shrug)" or "(sigh)" or whatever. Want me to find examples of me saying "um" as town?

This has become my 2nd, and slightly stronger tell. The other thing that amused me was that you finished it with "...", maybe signifying annoyance.

Not annoyance, so much as surprise/ confusion at his post.

I think a townie in that situation would just re-quote his post, or make a polite joke about the mistake, or perhaps ask a question to WF.

...or just calmly point out that I already posted and ask for clarification, which was what I did. "Re-quoting my post" would be silly when it was just two posts up, and at that point it wasn't so much a matter of "oh, he made a mistake" as "what the heck?" There was certanly no way I could have know he was "just making a mistake" until after I asked him.

Excuse me, Yos, but I don't see the irony. What I see, is possible scum that I would like to continue to interact with.

What I see is that you're OMGUS voting me here, attacking me because I attacked you. You're also misrepresenting my posts and trying to make a case out of air. And what's worse, you yourself are more guilty then I of the very scum tells you're accusing me of, namely being over-defensive, misrepresenting posts, and being illoigically agressive.

Every time you post, you come up with a new excuse for voting me, and none of them make much sense. I'm just not sure at this point if you're scum trying to invent an excuse to get me lynched, or just a newbie townie who's unwilling to consider the fact that he might be wrong.

And I also see that you've refused to answer my question. What "misrepresentations" did I make, exactally?

[WindFish]

I'd just like to weigh in to thank pickemgenius and Albert for responding to my questions, though I am not convinced much to change my position.

Regarding the recent back-and-forth between Albert and Yosarian, my feeling on my "where's Yos?" post was not much of an attack; more like an observation, and a clearly faulty one, right? And Yos's response was also measured, IMO; he didn't flip-out, and he used some hedging "ums" and stuff because he was being conversational and trying to embarrass me by pointing out something I mistakenly overlooked.

Albert, you appear to be stirring something up out of nothing down this path.

[WindFish]

Ah, my grammar failed me (and I even previewed too).

It should read that Yosarian "was being conversation and trying to

not

embarrass me".

(Even that splits an infinitive. Gah!)

[WindFish]

*sigh*

0 for 2

Yosarian was being conversation

al

and trying to not embarass me.

Isn't there some Internet law of nature that pointing out grammar and spelling mistakes only introduces more of them?

[thedocsalive]

Albert, you appear to be stirring something up out of nothing down this path.

Yeah, I agree here. Yos' "defense" wasn't an overreaction; he merely pointed out that he did indeed post in the game.

[truncator]

If you KNEW you were casting the third vote, then WHY DIDN'T YOU SAY SO at least???

Why state the obvious?

[Albert B. Rampage]

And I also see that you've refused to answer my question. What "misrepresentations" did I make, exactally?

I did, and its behind us. You said that you only said "attack" because I called what you did a "defense".

[Yosarian2]

If you KNEW you were casting the third vote, then WHY DIDN'T YOU SAY SO at least???

Why state the obvious?

I don't know that it was that obvious. Your vote just looked like another random vote, and I might not have noticed he was at lynch -1 until the next votecount.

Basically, putting someone at lynch -1 that early in a game where we lose where we lynch wrong twice is a bad idea no matter what. In any case, if you are going to put someone at lynch -1, you should generally point out that you're doing so, just so no one accidently lynches him without noticing the current votecount (or, conversly, drops the hammer and then later tries to say "hey, I didn't notice he was at lynch -1!"). It was a very dangerous play, and the fact that you didn't even point out that you were putting him at lynch -1 makes it more dangerous. Because anyone who wasn't paying attention to the game very closely would have probably just mistaken this post for a random vote and not noticed the danger:

Anyone who proclaims them self a genius, especially in an area in which I am also a genius, deserves to be lynched, guilty or not.

Vote: pickemgenius