Mini 482: Shrek Mafia - Game Over

[Jex]

I'm definitely starting to realize why everyone thinks Ben is scum. I still have grek at the top of my list though, with ben in a close second.

[Adam The Amazing]

I am going to have to agree with Jex. Ben is probably playing the oddest, but not necessarily the scummiest. It's really unorthodox, and the small tells like purposely putting "I'm town" into his posts when it should be implied raise some flags in my head.
With that said, I'm going to

Unvote, Vote: grek

.
Poor logic, arguing a lost point, and coming up with reasoning that was missing before the action; you are not following causality, good señor. I believe that from the way you were wording your posts (which I don't really want to get into, because it's all those big posts in the argument w/ Mirth), that you are not telling the truth. I am a huge LAL fan, because it's very rare that townies should want to deceive the town.
I don't know off the top of my head how many that is. I don't really care, because I think grek is scum and I want him lynched.

[Grek]

Poor logic, arguing a lost point, and coming up with reasoning that was missing before the action; you are not following causality, good señor.

The reasoning was there, I just didn't share it the town until later as part of a stratigic move. Can you point out where I was not follow causality or had poor logic?

I believe that from the way you were wording your posts (which I don't really want to get into, because it's all those big posts in the argument w/ Mirth), that you are not telling the truth. I am a huge LAL fan, because it's very rare that townies should want to deceive the town.

I did not lie at all. What I did was more like a cop not posting the names of the innocents he has found so they aren't nightkilled for being a confirmed innocent. Would you lynch a cop for that?

I don't know off the top of my head how many that is. I don't really care, because I think grek is scum and I want him lynched.

That would be the 5 vote. You should always check how many votes there are before voting. It is bad by at best and scummy at worst not to.

ok, then re-wind.. pull out the place that says soemthing about a reason and replace with random.. my reason is randomness.

That is a very poor reason. Not to be rude, but you seem to have very poor grasp of logic or be realy not good at playing as scum or you are a very unstuble jester. I am leaning toward jester.

[Grek]

EBWOP: "bad by" should read "bad play".

[Jex]

Poor logic, arguing a lost point, and coming up with reasoning that was missing before the action; you are not following causality, good señor.

The reasoning was there, I just didn't share it the town until later as part of a stratigic move. Can you point out where I was not follow causality or had poor logic?

I believe that from the way you were wording your posts (which I don't really want to get into, because it's all those big posts in the argument w/ Mirth), that you are not telling the truth. I am a huge LAL fan, because it's very rare that townies should want to deceive the town.

I did not lie at all. What I did was more like a cop not posting the names of the innocents he has found so they aren't nightkilled for being a confirmed innocent. Would you lynch a cop for that?

I don't know off the top of my head how many that is. I don't really care, because I think grek is scum and I want him lynched.

That would be the 5 vote. You should always check how many votes there are before voting. It is bad by at best and scummy at worst not to.

ok, then re-wind.. pull out the place that says soemthing about a reason and replace with random.. my reason is randomness.

That is a very poor reason. Not to be rude, but you seem to have very poor grasp of logic or be realy not good at playing as scum or you are a very unstuble jester. I am leaning toward jester.

Adam is vote 4 on you if I counted correctly (mirth, pug, jex, adam).

Also, what makes you think our game has a jester? This is the second time you bring it up, and both times it is towards ben. I find it odd that you found him scummy enough to FOS, yet now you are playing it off as a jester type. Possible scum connection?

[Mirth]

I did not lie at all. What I did was more like a cop not posting the names of the innocents he has found so they aren't nightkilled for being a confirmed innocent. Would you lynch a cop for that?

This sounds like you're breadcrumbing a claim. This strikes me as very very very not good. Multiple reasons for why:

1. This is day 1. You are not at L-1. In fact, unless I lost the ability to count, Adam is vote number 4 on you. To clear this up,

Mod: can we get a votecount, please? Thank you

There is another player who is also ringing major alarm bells. There is no need to claim or even breadcrumb right now.
2. This could be misinterpreted by the cop (if we have a cop) as a false claim and cause him to come out of hiding. Which is not good.
3. Confirmed innocents can actually be good for the town if there is definately a cop (and the cop is sane). Scum can't false claim without being called on it, and town players get a core group of people that they can trust, depending on how many confirmeds the cop has. Yes, they become targets at night, but during the day it raises the probability of catching scum. But this right now is a non issue. Why bring it up?

Also, on the topic of Jester/Villiage Idiot/what have you. I do not believe we have one in this game based on the fact that this is a mini and its not a very common role. Also, I'm in another game with Ben, and he's acting pretty much the same way. (I'm not sure what to make of him in either game, but I'm going to keep my eye on him because he is most certainly not being helpful).

And once again, keeping your "plan" secret is a moot point. We can argue it to infinity, but it will still be moot.

[Grek]

This sounds like you're breadcrumbing a claim. This strikes me as very very very not good.

You are reading far to much into this. I am not breadcrumbing anything. I am not claiming anything. The cop, if we have one, shouldn't claim anything.

Why bring it up?

As an example of how what I was did is not lieing and thus is not a reason to lynch me.

Also, on the topic of Jester/Villiage Idiot/what have you. I do not believe we have one in this game based on the fact that this is a mini and its not a very common role. Also, I'm in another game with Ben, and he's acting pretty much the same way. (I'm not sure what to make of him in either game, but I'm going to keep my eye on him because he is most certainly not being helpful).

I know it's unlikely, but that's to only sort of role where acting overtly scummy makes sense. But if you say he acts like that in other games, so I don't know what to think.

And once again, keeping your "plan" secret is a moot point. We can argue it to infinity, but it will still be moot.

Exactly, it is a moot point. That means it's not a good reason to vote for me.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

Vote Count

Grek (4): Mirth, Pug89, Jex, Adam The Amazing
benhalkum (4): Nox, Haschel Cedricson, DeliciousGoldfish, camisade

Nox (1): InHimshallibe
Mirth (1): benhalkum

Not Voting (2): Grek, Zindaras

7 to lynch

[Nox]

I'm definitely starting to realize why everyone thinks Ben is scum. I still have grek at the top of my list though, with ben in a close second.

The both of them seem sketch In my opinion. I find Ben's behavior odd- If it was a random vote, so be it. But saying it was founded, and then denying it saying it was random when pressed for explanation, is just plain scummy to me.

On the other hand, Grek just seems to be digging himself a hole. I see distancing between him and Mirth, but it could be just due to vastly differing opinions and thought processes- Most of the arguing seems to be going on between these two. However, I find most of Grek's logic is poorly thought out, in any case, his points don't match Mirth's.

One thing I'd like pointed out ( I may be blind). How did Grek lie? If I can see a quote or something (Your combined posts are rather extensive), I think it will be enough to sway my vote, as Ben's behavior might just be... Ben's behavior.

[Zindaras]

I really don't need to explain a day one vote, no one does. NONE of us know who's who, and day one its never easy to choose.

If you lynch me, just look back to who pushed the hardest and who jumped right on the bandwagon

But if no one explains their votes, then what do we have to go on Day Two? Roles? For one, roles aren't very likely and the scum's nightgame has to be stronger than the town's (after all, the game wouldn't be balanced if it weren't).

There's also Mirth's point, which I heartily agree with.

Also, on the topic of Jester/Villiage Idiot/what have you. I do not believe we have one in this game based on the fact that this is a mini and its not a very common role. Also, I'm in another game with Ben, and he's acting pretty much the same way. (I'm not sure what to make of him in either game, but I'm going to keep my eye on him because he is most certainly not being helpful).

Scope's last Mini (I believe it was 426, Confusion in the Ranks was the name) had a Jester. I also believe Scope is fond of the role (I believe he enjoyed it when he was one). If there'd be a Mini with a Jester, it'd be this one.

Mirth, could you please explain why Grek deserves to die?

[Mirth]

Mirth, could you please explain why Grek deserves to die?

I don't know yet if I think Grek deserves to die. Don't put words in my mouth please. I find his gameplay poorly thought out and his backpedaling explanations to be total crap!logic. I really really don't like his fifth vote on Nox on page 1 and his ridiculous justification of it. (I'm not going to get into this again) I also really don't like how he even brought up the role of cop. I don't like speculation on power roles unless there are actual claims as such. Why? It sounds like fishing. I don't see a need to fish. Yes, his post wasn't exactly speculation, but why compared himself to the role of cop? This bothers me.

Additionally, the only other person who has been setting off my alarm bells thus far is Ben, and I really don't know what to think there. As I said, I'm currently in another game with him, and he's just as unsettling. I'm really not sure what to make of it. Newbie? Newbie-scum? Someone with a twisted sense of humor? I don't know. Even if the Mod does have a Jester in this game, it would be a bit too coincidental is Ben ended up with that role.

Right now my vote is on Grek mostly because I don't see a reason to move it. (The only person I would concievably move it to is Ben, because of unhelpfullness.) Right now I think Ben would be easier to lynch, with more people giving him grief than Grek. Either way, I am no where near ready for a lynch yet, as I am not satisfied with the day's amount of discussion thus far. My vote stays where it is though, as there is no immediate danger of a lynch and I am not satisfied with Grek. (I also don't think that keeping a pressure vote on Ben will yield anything remotely helpful).

Furthermore, I'm going to have to add Nox and a few other people to my list of people to keep a closer eye on. It bothers me that I keep being suspected of distancing. The distancing accusation makes it sound like you lot are a lot surer than I am about how, if Grek were lynched, he would turn out. (This however, is, of course, total WIFOM. As are your accusations of distancing.) As I've said before, I have a low tolerance for crap!logic.

[Grek]

Haschel Cedricson, got anything to say? You seem a bit quiet.

[Jex]

Also, I'm in another game with Ben, and he's acting pretty much the same way. (I'm not sure what to make of him in either game, but I'm going to keep my eye on him because he is most certainly not being helpful).

I'm also in another game with ben and he acts the same way. I don't know his role because it is also just beginning, but it seems his play style may just be that way. Hence the reason I'm keeping my eye more on Grek then Ben at the moment.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Here's a pbpa of Grek:

First Post:

Random vote on DG. Nothing suspicious here.

Second Post:

Unvotes DG and places the fifth vote on Nox. No explanation is given, which appears scummy but also has a town explanation that I will mention later.

Third Post:

Here he explains the vote on Nox:

f the scum quicklynch, we find 2 scum for 1 townie. If they don't, we lose nothing.

This is technically true, but how likely are scum to quicklynch on day one? I actually like the fact that he had an explanation ready that he did not explain when he made the vote; if he's telling the truth, then it would have been a bad idea for him to claim this from the beginning.

Fourth Post:

Is concerned mostly with the mechanics of a quicklynch, which is a null tell. He unvotes Nox, which is consistant with a townie who attempted a trap that did not spring.

Fifth Post:

Actually, the first thing I notice in this post is actually the second quote by Mirth, who claims that his unvote above is suspicious. I disagree; the unvote and the circumstances around it make sense from the standpoint of a town-Grek trying a failed gambit, and anything ELSE would have been wierd. I'm getting more town vibes here; his plan, albeit flawed, was concerned with a Nox QUICKLYNCH, not a Nox Lynch. There is a difference, and despite the fact that a quicklynch s unlikely, Grek's explanation has been consistant with itself so far.

Sixth Post:

More of the Grek/Mirth Show. His answers to Mirth's questions are less satisfatory here; his reason for unvoting in post 4 is now "To get [Mirth] to stop complaining about it". Grek is getting frustrated here, and it's showing.

I realize that this is unlikly to work, but it isn't going to hurt us either so it's worth a shot.

I agree. In fact, the discussion we're getting is arguably just as good as a quicklynch, and I hate the random voting stage anyway.

Seventh Post:

Mirth is questioning heavily, and Grek is flailing to come up with answers. To me it doesn't matter if Nox is town or scum for purposes of this argument, and I don't see why Mirth and Grek are spending so much time on it.

Eighth Post:

If I posted that I was voting to try to trap the scum, it wouldn't be a very good trap, would it?

Agreed.

Nineth Post:

Calls out benhalkum, and adds "Leaning heavily towards him being scum." Nothing inherently wrong here, although I would like SOME elaboration at this point. Remember, if you're Grek, the town is pressuring you pretty hard. You need to more than FoS ben, you have to convince the REST of us that ben is more suspicious than you. See my sig for elaboration.

Tenth Post:

I'm not a fan of the jester role in general, and I don't like it when suspicious people get labeled as jesters. I've been in games before where scum were playing scummily and then made it to endgame because the town gave them the Jester Free No-Lynch Pass. In fact, if Grek or ben got lynched right now and were scum, I would take a long look at if those two were partners based on the above comment. But that's just me, and not everyone shares my jester distaste.

Eleventh Post:

Nothing of note here, due to Jex's mistake.

Twelveth Post:

This has some good and some bad in it. For simplicity, I'm going to quote the whole thing. Underlined comments are mine:

Poor logic, arguing a lost point, and coming up with reasoning that was missing before the action; you are not following causality, good señor.

The reasoning was there, I just didn't share it the town until later as part of a stratigic move. Can you point out where I was not follow causality or had poor logic?

Grek is right here; his logic is consistant with itself, and he's not arguing a lost point, he's defending it, which you can't fault him for. As stated above, if he had just presented everything from the beginning, that would actually be MORE suspicious.

I believe that from the way you were wording your posts (which I don't really want to get into, because it's all those big posts in the argument w/ Mirth), that you are not telling the truth. I am a huge LAL fan, because it's very rare that townies should want to deceive the town.

I did not lie at all. What I did was more like a cop not posting the names of the innocents he has found so they aren't nightkilled for being a confirmed innocent. Would you lynch a cop for that?

Okay, I don't like Adam saying "You're lying and should be lynched on LAL, but I'm not going to prove any lies." I also don't like Grek's cop analogy. I don't even see how the analogy applies here. What you did is nothing like a cop withholding innocent results.

I don't know off the top of my head how many that is. I don't really care, because I think grek is scum and I want him lynched.

That would be the 5 vote. You should always check how many votes there are before voting. It is bad by at best and scummy at worst not to.

Grek is correct here.

ok, then re-wind.. pull out the place that says soemthing about a reason and replace with random.. my reason is randomness.

That is a very poor reason. Not to be rude, but you seem to have very poor grasp of logic or be realy not good at playing as scum or you are a very unstuble jester. I am leaning toward jester.

Ben is a horrible player. Grek brings up the jester again, which I don't like, but whatever.

[/quote]

Thirteenth Post:

An EBWOP.

Fourteenth Post:

Back to Mirth and Grek. I don't know how to read the part about the cop analogy, because it was such a crappy analogy in the first place. I didn't read it as breadcrumbing, but I don't know how to take it. I hope that Mirth is right about the jester.

Fifteenth Post.

Asks me to post. Hopefully this pbpa will do.

Overall Analysis:

Grek isn't lily-white, but I do believe that he is town. I'm sympathetic to gambit-play, and I don't see any major slip-ups that make me believe Grek has been doing anything other than what he claims to have been doing. We can look back at Grek later, but I do not believe that he is the lynch for today.

Later I will do a pbpa of Mirth and benhalkum. Not now, though. Food now.

[Grek]

Okay, I don't like Adam saying "You're lying and should be lynched on LAL, but I'm not going to prove any lies." I also don't like Grek's cop analogy. I don't even see how the analogy applies here. What you did is nothing like a cop withholding innocent results.

The analogy intended was to show that waiting until later to post some information is a protown move if the information you are posting would help the scum more than it helps the town. Me posting that I was trying to trap scum before it was clear that they where not going to fall for the trap would help the mafia(by leting them avoid the trap) more than it would help the town(wouldn't help at the town all).

[Mirth]

Grek, why specifically Haschel? Why not Camisade or Pug or Goldfish or InHim?

Haschel, I will concede that Grek's moves follow in a logical pattern, but I will stand firm that the logical pattern is innately flawed and thus does not count in his favor. Here is an example like Grek's logic:

T. All ravens are black.
L1. Everything that is black must be a raven.
L2. Microwaves are black, so they therefore must be ravens.
L3. Microwaves heat stuff up, so therefore ravens must also heat stuff up.
L4. I could use a raven to bake a potato.

While statements L 1-4 follow follow a logical pattern, the underlying principle is a false assumption. The problem I mainly see with Grek is not that he didn't state his theory immeadiately before the vote, but rather that he developed the theory at all. I honestly don't think that's a very well thought out plan, and therefore wonder if he thought of it before he placed the vote, or hastily threw something together after the fact.

Also, my problem with the unvote is this: After we jumped on him for the vote, there was already 1 unvote, and nobody would have voted Nox after that because of the interrogation that would surely follow. (Unless Nox did something really scummy). So unless his vote was meant to go somewhere else, the unvote was in fact unnecessary. No immediate threat or better suspect. It seemed like a "just leave me alone" unvote, which is what it basically was. Leave him alone, why?

Also, I think Nox's alignment does very much matter, because Grek says he voted under the assumption that two scum would lynch. Now this assumption basically translates to Grek thinking Nox is a townie. If Nox is scum, the two imaginary scum have even less incentive to hammer. Not only do they lose one of their buddies, but they set themselves up for a load of suspicion the next day. Assuming for a second that two scum are dumb enough to quicklynch on the first page, why would they quicklynch one of their own? Thus Grek's plan implicitely assumes Nox is town. Why? We don't know if Nox is town. If Nox *is* town, then Grek is even more suspicious. If Nox *isn't* town, then Grek possibly looks more credible as a victim of badly utilized logic. So Nox's alligment matters here.

[Grek]

Grek, why specifically Haschel? Why not Camisade or Pug or Goldfish or InHim?

No real reason for him specifically, just was looking at the list of players noticed I hadn't seen him post lately.

Haschel, I will concede that Grek's moves follow in a logical pattern, but I will stand firm that the logical pattern is innately flawed and thus does not count in his favor. Here is an example like Grek's logic:

T. All ravens are black.
L1. Everything that is black must be a raven.
L2. Microwaves are black, so they therefore must be ravens.
L3. Microwaves heat stuff up, so therefore ravens must also heat stuff up.
L4. I could use a raven to bake a potato.

While statements L 1-4 follow follow a logical pattern, the underlying principle is a false assumption. The problem I mainly see with Grek is not that he didn't state his theory immeadiately before the vote, but rather that he developed the theory at all. I honestly don't think that's a very well thought out plan, and therefore wonder if he thought of it before he placed the vote, or hastily threw something together after the fact.

Can you point out a flaw in my logic instead of comparing it to a fictitious example? If not, please stop saying it isn't well thought out.

Also, my problem with the unvote is this: After we jumped on him for the vote, there was already 1 unvote, and nobody would have voted Nox after that because of the interrogation that would surely follow. (Unless Nox did something really scummy). So unless his vote was meant to go somewhere else, the unvote was in fact unnecessary. No immediate threat or better suspect. It seemed like a "just leave me alone" unvote, which is what it basically was. Leave him alone, why?

My vote wasn't doing anything useful where it was and you where complaining about it, so I moved it.

Also, I think Nox's alignment does very much matter, because Grek says he voted under the assumption that two scum would lynch.

I didn't. I said they might.

Now this assumption basically translates to Grek thinking Nox is a townie.

It doesn't.

If Nox is scum, the two imaginary scum have even less incentive to hammer. Not only do they lose one of their buddies, but they set themselves up for a load of suspicion the next day.

That is true, the scum most likly wouldn't vote for their scum partner. I had thought about this and decided it was still a good idea to go ahead and try because there was a chance of it still working.

Assuming for a second that two scum are dumb enough to quicklynch on the first page, why would they quicklynch one of their own? Thus Grek's plan implicitely assumes Nox is town.

It doesn't. It wouldn't work if she is scum, but she could be town and it could have worked.

[Zindaras]

I don't know yet if I think Grek deserves to die. Don't put words in my mouth please.

You're voting him and he's at four votes. That seems like pretty far to push a lynch you're not very interested in.

As an aside, you are right. I used the wrong words here. It's something I have more often. I should've said "Why should we vote Grek?"

Your Grek case is nice. I think Grek is severely understating (or underestimating) the importance of the fifth vote in this case, instead taking the approach of putting the blame on the sixth and seventh votes. I'm personally leaning to underestimating, which puts him in my townie book. His gambit just really doesn't work.

[Mirth]

Why should you vote Grek? I don't know *if* you should vote Grek. Just because I'm suspicious of him doesn't mean you have to be. The whole of my case rests on his refusal to acknowledge that his plan was innately flawed.

I see no point in unvoting him as he's three votes away from a lynch, so my vote poses no actual threat at the moment. I'm not going to move my vote off him unless one of two things happens: 1. someone else acts suspicious. 2. Somebody adds a sixth vote to Grek before I'm satisfied with my opinion of him.


Why are you trying to get me to act like I'm trying to push a lynch on Grek? Yes, I'm obviously the most vocal about his crap!logic, but my arguments all boil down to how I don't agree with his premise and how I don't like his staunch support of it even after it has been debunked quite thoroughly. I have stated before that I'm not convinced that he's scum, just that I find him to be one of the most suspicious people here at the moment.

[Zindaras]

Look, if you think someone is scum, call that person out, and are voting that person, I'm going to assume that you want that person lynched, or, at the very least, that that person is the one you would most gladly have lynched at that time.

[Mirth]

Or I'm keeping my attention focused on the person who a) gives reason for suspicion and b) is likely to provide information in response to my actions.

You also haven't answered my question.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Alright. Here's Mirth, post-by-post.

First Post:

A random vote. Nothing to analyze.

Second Post:

Blatant buddying-up to Jex. Nah, not really. It's a joke post, so it gets a joke analysis.

Third Post:

This is where it begins. Grek has placed the fifth vote on Nox, and Mirth votes him for it. I can't fault this vote at all, as Grek looks suspicious at this point.

Fourth Post:

Here Mirth makes an assumption that I disagree with, although the point has been debated elsewhere: by using Nox as the bait, Grek is assuming that Nox is town. I don't think this is necessarily true, because if Nox is scum, there will be no quicklynch, and nothing will be harmed. Now, not being QLed will reveal nothing about Nox's alignment, but if Grek's plan had worked (which admittedly is not very likely), a foiled QL could potentially confirm Nox as town. Of course, this is all hypothetically assuming that the scum are poor players, but it is within the realm of possibility.

I also disagree with Mirth's second statement: Grek is trying to push a lynch on Nox. Nox is bait in a trap. This is the post where Mirth goes from viewing Grek as a poor player to viewing Grek as a scummy player.

Fifth Post:

Tags messed up. See next post.

Sixth Post:

Mirth makes good points about the potential loss of a days information, explaining that scum won't be dumb enough to QL, and the point that scum sacrifice is pointless on Day One. The only thing I don't like about this post is that Mirth turned Grek's unvote into something scummy, when I feel anything OTHER than an unvote would have been scummy. Grek's trap failed, there was no logical reason to keep the vote on Nox.

Seventh Post:

Again, Mirth makes some strong points about why Grek's plan was flawed from the beginning: scum are not going to quicklynch. However, Mirth also says "quicklynch = bad". The entire premise of Grek's plan was to get TWO scum to reveal themselves. Almost all of the rebuttal to Grek's plan was not that a quicklynch hurts the town, but rather that a quicklynch

will not happen

. Again, Mirth brings up Nox's alignment which I still posit is not directly relevant to the discussion. Indirectly perhaps. But not directly.

It is true that Grek is being hypocritical; assuming town to be smart and scum to be dumb, and Mirth does point that out.

Eighth Post:

I'm like a dog. Once I get my teeth into something, I don't let go of it.

So I see.

Again, the point about hypocracy is a good one. However, the following quote strikes me as off:

Why should we move on to something else? Your argument is clearly not satisfactory to at least a few other people besides myself.

If you read Grek's post, he's suggesting that IF the trap does not work THEN we try some other way to catch scum. I'm not sure how Mirth interpreted Grek as trying to defelct suspicion.

Mirth is absolutely right that we need discussion from more people.

Ninth Post:

This post has nothing scummy in it, but all of the points have been made before, so I'm not going to comment further.

Tenth Post:

This is the first post in which Mirth addresses something other than Grek. However, Mirth has no strong feelings about Nox, Jex, or inHim. Mirth's reason for voting Grek is justified, however, I disagree that inHim's vote is equal to Jex's or Nox's votes. I'm a fan of the school of thought that says "Third person on a bandwagon is possibly scum; fourth person on a bandwagon is probable scum." I would like to see Mirth take another look at inHim, although IIRC, he hasn't posted much. I guess I can wait.

Eleventh Post:

Not too much of note here. Newbie 431 is ongoing, so we probably shouldn't talk about it.

Twelveth Post:

Thanks to dial-up, I'm doing this pbpa offline. As such, I have no idea what Mirth is talking about here, but I will check later.

Thirteenth Post:

Mirth demands accountability from ben, which is consistant with her attitude towards Grek. No problems here.

Fourteenth Post:

Again, heavily questioning towards ben. I think it would be fair to classify Mirth as a seeker of intent rather than content.

Fifteenth Post:

Mirth's actions here are consistant with her playstyle. Incidentally, Adam the Amazing seems sure that there are three scum players out there instead of two or four. Guess... or insider knowledge?

Sixteenth Post:

A question to Jex. Nothing to analyze.

Seventeenth Post:

I would like to point out, in regards to Ben, that a day one vote does require an explanation, unless it's a random vote.

I disagree with this. I can think of several scenarios where one might want to vote with no explanation. One of those scenarios might have already happened in this thread.

Remember, votes can also be used for pressure, and pressure is often more effective if it is unaccompanied by explanation.

Eighteenth Post:

I didn't interpret Grek as breadcrumbing, but if everybody else did, then Mirth is absolutely correct here. There's another reference to Newbie 431, which as I've said should not be commented on here. Mafia in a vacuum and whatnot.

Nineteenth Post:

It's apparent how Mirth feels about Grek, and the first paragraph here matches up with that. I also like that Mirth is wanting more discussion before either a Grek or ben lynch.

As for the distancing: at least Mirth acknowledges that it's all WIFOM on everybody's parts.

Twentieth Post:

Ah, the raven analogy. I agree that Grek's premise (scum will quicklynch and give themselves away) is flawed. However, let's assume I honestly believed that I could use a raven to bake a potato. And then you went back through my posts and saw that everything I did was consistant with the actions of a person who believed that a raven could bake a potato. I think that does count for something.

I honestly don't think that's a very well thought out plan, and therefore wonder if he thought of it before he placed the vote, or hastily threw something together after the fact.

Nothing I've seen from Grek suggests to me that he's making this up as he goes along. Despite the flawed premise, he has shown no signs of being scum pulling a defense out of his ass.

I guess this is the crux of this analysis: yes, Grek has a poor premise. Yes, Grek's plan did not work, nor was it likely to. However, most of the signs point to poor town, not scum. The majority of Mirth's posts deal with Grek and Grek only. I think it is possible that Mirth is trying to keep attention on a suspicious-yet-ultimately-town Grek. I think that Mirth is more likely to be scum than Grek, but less likely to be scum than inHim or benhalkum.

I would like to see more from inHim and DeliciousGoldfish.

As for me, my vote is on ben right now, and that's where I will leave it for now.

[Mirth]

However, let's assume I honestly believed that I could use a raven to bake a potato.

If I ever get a signature, I am so quoting that (with your permission of course.)


I have a couple of questions for you, though:

1. Why do you think InHim is scummy? I honestly don't see anything all that scummy coming from him (yet, anyways. He hasn't posted much.)
2. Why do you think Ben is scummier than Grek? (I'm not saying that I don't, I have made no choice in regards to that, regardless of the fact that my vote is on Grek at the moment, but I would like to hear your opinion here.)

As to why I keep focusing on Grek well, he keeps arguing with me, and I can't back down from an argument ^_^

I would also like to hear some more from Pug, Camisade, Jex, and Nox, on top of InHim and Goldfish. (I would also like to hear some more from Ben, but I'm not getting my hopes up there.)

[Haschel Cedricson]

[quote="MirthIf I ever get a signature, I am so quoting that (with your permission of course.) [/quote]

Go for it. You don't even need permission.

1. Why do you think InHim is scummy? I honestly don't see anything all that scummy coming from him (yet, anyways. He hasn't posted much.)

The "third vote = good enough" comment sounds like a willingness to follow bandwagons, which I don't like. It also was the fourth vote, which is a position I hold to be important. I also don't believe it's that easy to confuse Nox and Jex, and he's mentioned it twice. To me that sounds like a near-abdication of responsibility.

2. Why do you think Ben is scummier than Grek? (I'm not saying that I don't, I have made no choice in regards to that, regardless of the fact that my vote is on Grek at the moment, but I would like to hear your opinion here.)

Aside from the fact that I believe Grek to be town right now, ben has flat-out told us that he will vote for whatever seems popular. His vote on you makes no sense given the reasons he gave, and he gave a weak sort-of-claim that he was town that I felt was both unwarranted and unconvincing.

[camisade]

Can someone tell me how to get into the view that lets you see 1 person's posts in the thread so I can understand Haschel Cedricson's post?