Mini 508- Trouble in New Catania-Game Over

[someone2]

someone2 wrote:
Sorry for my inactivity of these last days...

Today I won<t have time to post content. Gonna post my thoughts tomorrow


At least you have time to lynch me...

Huh? What you mean by that?

For me, I don't find Kuribo very scummy.Rishi's post 125 and after has touched my scumdar. Seems to be protecting Lowell too much there.

I think that Lowell's actions were marginally scummy. I think, knowing that he was about to be lynched, he made some kind of effort, posting his analysis of the game. The main argument against him was that he wasn't being helpful. So he actually tried to be helpful.

His attitude is a little flippant. The "now unvote me" comment almost made me want to drop the hammer. But, even if we don't like his reasoning or tone, he did make more of an effort to participate. So, I think it's too soon for a lynch.

I think that what Lowell did, his analysis post, is not enough to get out all of the accusations on him. It is possible than a mafia post something interesting when he is at lynch-1 close to a deadline, it's even normal, but then I'm entering WIFOM reasoning. Then in your second paragraph you seem to be distancing yourself from him.

Your post 144 has no sense, maybe LML changed his vote 1 or 2 times more than Lowell, but he has posted much more than Lowell. When you don't post, you can't change your vote so...

However, my vote stays on Lowell. Death Omen and Rishi confirmed me that he has much more chance to be scum that any others here. It's stange that two players says: I would have hammer him but I was confused, or I would have hammered him but it's just his reasoning or tone that makes him look scummy.

[CrashTextDummie]

Details on each of these, please? To me, for reasons previously stated, it seems entirely obvious that Lowell has been giving off a nearly overpowering scum vibe. More importantly, back up your Kuribo claims

1. I've been in a number of games with Lowell, and his playstyle here is pretty much standard Lowell. Naturally, this means that I have no real read on him at this point in time, but the fact that he was bandwagoned to Lynch -1 by page 6 indicates to me that there's scum pushing for his lynch. The "overpowering scum vibe" you speak of is simply non-existent in my eyes.

2. I am suspicious of Kuribo because his push for a Lowell-lynch was particularly unreasonable. By page 4, he was already asking for a lynch ("We should string up Lowell and see what happens tonight"). His reasoning for this was weak at best and fallacious at worst. Stuff like this:

Even if we're wrong by lynching Lowell, we'll still be able to find out his allegiance one way or another and analyze the events of the day armed with that knowledge.

Sounds like overeager scum to me. He wants to go to night more than anything. And advocating an informational lynch on page 6 is just nasty.

The size and speed of his bandwagon? Please. It's been going on for at least three pages, and has carried us up to about a week and a half before our imposed deadline. Lowell's evasiveness only serves to hasten that deadline, and we all know that only scum benefits from a no-lynch. If he's town, he could absolutely be more helpful. As for the size, in case you haven't noticed, the "bandwagon" hasn't exactly been a runaway freight train.

1. A week an a half to deadline is plenty of time, and it's in the town's best interest to use all the time it has at its disposal, especially when the deadline is imposed this early.
2. Correspondingly, the town was never in danger of a no-lynch so far. Attempting to use a potential no-lynch in order to speed up a lynch in this situation amounts to lynch-mongering in my eyes. Which is not a pro-town trait.
3. You say he could be "more helpful", completely disregarding his fairly extensive analysis. Regardless whether you think it's accurate or not, accusing him of being unhelpful when several players have done less is not kosher.

@CTD: You still think the Lowell wagon smells bad?

Yeah.

[kuribo]

2. I am suspicious of Kuribo because his push for a Lowell-lynch was particularly unreasonable. By page 4, he was already asking for a lynch ("We should string up Lowell and see what happens tonight").

My reasoning was clearly stated in that Lowell was being extremely unhelpful to the town with sarcastic replies as well as cryptic and baseless accusations. You said you've played with him before. Does he always act like this? He didn't bother being helpful in the least until Page 6.

Sounds like overeager scum to me. He wants to go to night more than anything. And advocating an informational lynch on page 6 is just nasty.

No, I'm not overeager scum, I don't feel like Lowell is going to be any more helpful, even if we give him 100 more pages. Not to mention, at the time, I was under the impression that we were facing a deadline.

1. A week an a half to deadline is plenty of time, and it's in the town's best interest to use all the time it has at its disposal, especially when the deadline is imposed this early.

A week and a half is hardly any time at all when the thread was only getting one or two replies every day, like this thread was. There was alot of lurking / inactivity going on. Hell, to a certain extent, there still is.

2. Correspondingly, the town was never in danger of a no-lynch so far. Attempting to use a potential no-lynch in order to speed up a lynch in this situation amounts to lynch-mongering in my eyes. Which is not a pro-town trait.

And yet it's pro-town to reply to accusations (even against Claus) with vague and sarcastic replies? Tell me, CTD, how did THAT help the town, other than leading us to suspect Lowell in the first place?

3. You say he could be "more helpful", completely disregarding his fairly extensive analysis. Regardless whether you think it's accurate or not, accusing him of being unhelpful when several players have done less is not kosher.

The analysis came only AFTER he was pushed to L-1 and criticized repeatedly for not being helpful. When it finally looks like it's go-time, he manages to eke out a complete analysis of the game thus far. So, yes, he has been unhelpful. At least until it has served him to be otherwise.

[death_omen]

Guys just a reminder that there

is no current deadline

as the mod stated previously, so we shouldnt be under pressure to lynch anyone not even Lowell. I agree with CTD kuribos previous actions lately have been scummy pushing for a lynch and claiming we would have enough info to get a scum the next day isnt good enough reason in any circumstances because 2 misreads can result in a minimum of about 4 town alligned players to die.

[Lowell]

kuribo, in hindsight, has a lot of reasons for voting me, which to me looks like scum (a) getting caught for voting, and (b) trying to justify it. This last post in particular really reeks of desperation. "I don't feel like Lowell is going to be any more helpful, even if we give him 100 more pages". Really? Why not? You're not even curious?

I'm a little unclear as to why, if your reason for voting is you THOUGHT we were on a deadline, your vote remains on me still. Especially since now you seem to be certain CTD is scummy-looking.

[kuribo]

Lowell, my vote remains on you for the reason that I imagine five other votes currently rest on you--- you're the prime scum suspect. I will not remove a good-faith vote against someone I believe to be scum. Even now your behavior is scummy- You're trying to misdirect the town away from you to give yourself some breathing room. Make up your mind, Lowell, am I newbie town, or scum? You've voted against me, removed the vote a few minutes later, calling me newbie town, and then gone right back to calling me scum. Which is it? At least MY vote rests on someone I believe to be scum. You, however, are abstaining even as you condemn me, having removed your vote from me.

If Claus was scum, as alot of us had thought, then CTD as his replacement would be scum as well, correct? It's difficult to judge CTD without using Claus' posts as a comparison. But, for what it's worth, Lowell has been more scummy than either of them, in my mind, for the reasons I've laid out previously.

D_O, You point out that pushing for an informative lynch was scummy, but again, I'd like to say that at the time, I was still under the impression that we had a deadline.

[Rishi]

Lowell, my vote remains on you for the reason that I imagine five other votes currently rest on you--- you're the prime scum suspect. I will not remove a good-faith vote against someone I believe to be scum. Even now your behavior is scummy- You're trying to misdirect the town away from you to give yourself some breathing room. .

Lowell is scum because he is trying to avoid being lynched? Great logic there.

[kuribo]

Lowell is scum because he is trying to avoid being lynched? Great logic there.

No, but instead of trying to explain his actions, he's simply trying to pile everything onto someone else.

[LoudmouthLee]

Lowell is scum because he is trying to avoid being lynched? Great logic there.

No, but instead of trying to explain his actions, he's simply trying to pile everything onto someone else.

QFT. I couldn't explain it better.

[CrashTextDummie]

My reasoning was clearly stated in that Lowell was being extremely unhelpful to the town with sarcastic replies as well as cryptic and baseless accusations. You said you've played with him before. Does he always act like this? He didn't bother being helpful in the least until Page 6.

For the record, I didn't find him overly unhelpful or cryptic considering how early in the game it was. And as I said, this behavior is not unusual for him based on my experience.

No, I'm not overeager scum, I don't feel like Lowell is going to be any more helpful, even if we give him 100 more pages.

I have no idea how you can say stuff like this with a straight face, considering he has

already

been helpful with his analysis, which is valuable whether he is scum or not. Your accusations that he is unhelpful are completely baseless at this point.

A week and a half is hardly any time at all when the thread was only getting one or two replies every day, like this thread was. There was alot of lurking / inactivity going on. Hell, to a certain extent, there still is.

The purpose of a deadline is to encourage discussion, not to encourage a quicklynch. Activity almost always picks up the closer to deadline you get. How the hell do you think games with fixed one- or two-week deadlines work?

And yet it's pro-town to reply to accusations (even against Claus) with vague and sarcastic replies? Tell me, CTD, how did THAT help the town, other than leading us to suspect Lowell in the first place?

Finger-pointing is not a valid defense. You pushing for a quicklynch to "avoid a no-lynch" has absolutely nothing to do with Lowell's behavior.

The analysis came only AFTER he was pushed to L-1 and criticized repeatedly for not being helpful. When it finally looks like it's go-time, he manages to eke out a complete analysis of the game thus far. So, yes, he has been unhelpful. At least until it has served him to be otherwise.

You accuse him of being unhelpful. He starts being helpful. You accuse him of only being helpful "when it serves him". You do not have the open mind of a pro-town player.

QFT. I couldn't explain it better.

FoS: LML

I can't believe you're supporting this nonsense.

[Beastly]

Many apologies for being absent, I will endeavour to post thoughts before the weekend.

[The Fonz]

BrianMcQueso has requested replacement.

[someone2]

Ok there's like two group of people here:One that finds Lowell scummy and the other not. For the two last pages, the only thing we've done is a fight between the two groups. One is accusing the other of protecting Lowell and the other accuses the one to push too far for a quicklynch.

Mafia Lowell group:
-Kuribo
-LML
-rite
-Happiest Sadist
-Me

Town Lowell group:
-CTD
-Rishi
-Death Omen
-Beastly

The ones missing are Lowell, for sure. Strefflo, who posted last week before this group fight, and BrianMcQueso, that would need a prod.

Mod:

Could we have a prod on BrianMcQueso please?


Now see how much information we can get by that. Lowell lynch is the one that will procure the town the most information. If Lowell reveals himself to be town, then the one that were pushing for his lynch, on the Mafia Lowell group have much more chance to reveal themselves to be scum. Howver, if he turns out to be scum, there will be one scum left and we'll be able to say that the ones on the Town Lowell group have much more chance to reveal themselves to be scum. In each cases, we can eliminate half of the suspects has scum candidates. I think it's great for day 1, isn't it?

I think that this day should continue the longer possible but at the end a Lowell lynch. In that way, we,ll get a max off info for day 2!

Unvote

for now. Don't want someone to drop the hammer before the town is ready to

[CrashTextDummie]

Now see how much information we can get by that. Lowell lynch is the one that will procure the town the most information. If Lowell reveals himself to be town, then the one that were pushing for his lynch, on the Mafia Lowell group have much more chance to reveal themselves to be scum.

Howver, if he turns out to be scum, there will be one scum left

and we'll be able to say that the ones on the Town Lowell group have much more chance to reveal themselves to be scum. In each cases, we can eliminate half of the suspects has scum candidates. I think it's great for day 1, isn't it?

Where did you get the idea that there is only 2 scum?

[someone2]

oops, left in the sense gone...

[The Fonz]

Mod:

Could we have a prod on BrianMcQueso please?

Nope, for the reason stated above.

[CrashTextDummie]

In addition:

Unvote for now. Don't want someone to drop the hammer before the town is ready to

What made you think the town was ready earlier? You were the one that put him at L-1.

[someone2]

When did I say that I thought that the town was ready earlier? I just didn't want a scum that would put the hammer on Lowell right now using what I said as a reason for his hammer in order to not leave the town time to accumulate more info, considering Lowell is town.

[CrashTextDummie]

When did I say that I thought that the town was ready earlier?

You put him at L-1. That implies that

you

were ready at the very least, and when a pro-town player is ready to so something, he usually thinks it's in the best interest of the town.

Either you thought the town was ready, or you're not a pro-town player.

I just didn't want a scum that would put the hammer on Lowell right now using what I said as a reason for his hammer in order to not leave the town time to accumulate more info, considering Lowell is town.

You seriously think a scum would hammer in this situation, considering it's pretty clear we're getting some good information right now and doing so would pretty much give him away?

Also, if I am to take you literally here, you're pretty much saying that you know Lowell to be town, although I have a feeling this might have something to do with English not being your first language.

[LoudmouthLee]

Now see how much information we can get by that. Lowell lynch is the one that will procure the town the most information. If Lowell reveals himself to be town, then the one that were pushing for his lynch, on the Mafia Lowell group have much more chance to reveal themselves to be scum.

Howver, if he turns out to be scum, there will be one scum left

and we'll be able to say that the ones on the Town Lowell group have much more chance to reveal themselves to be scum. In each cases, we can eliminate half of the suspects has scum candidates. I think it's great for day 1, isn't it?

Where did you get the idea that there is only 2 scum?

This, seriously, is a freudian slip.

Could we have two sets of two mafias?

I think Lowell is definately a nice lynch today, but I am again increasingly happy with a Someone2 lynch.

[Lowell]

Wow that's a terrible slip by someone2.

unvote, vote someone2

Well at least he has only 1 scumbuddy!

[death_omen]

Wow, that was

real

bad, you put someone on -1 lynch then you claim there only 1 scum will reamin after Lowell gets lynched. Mini Games have 12 players there is usually only 2/3 mafia but how can you be so sure that there is 2?

HOS:Someone2

[rite]

major FoS: someone2

. I'm still convinced of Lowell's scumdom, but I'm almost as convinced of yours. Quite a slip.

[someone2]

??? What are you talking about? I just made an English mistake. The verb left have two meanings. I wanted to say that there would be one scum gone, one less.

To answer CTD in post 168, English isn't my first language so it is normal that I make some meaning mistakes but I think what I say is understandable.I'd be quite happy if you find me a Mafia site in French, but I have never found one

[CrashTextDummie]

I'm willing to believe that this was not a scum-slip, even though it seems kinda redundant to say something like "if he turns out to be scum, there will be one scum gone".

What still bothers me though is the whole "putting someone at L-1, yet not thinking the town is ready for a lynch" deal. I get the feeling that you were trying to appear pro-town by taking your vote off after the lynch didn't go through as you intended. The fact that you still want him lynched at the end of the day despite this ("for max info!") reinforces that feeling. I can sense the disappointment.

Unvote, Vote: someone2