Mini #553: Over!

[Khelvaster]

As of this post Vote Count!

Votes required:

7 to lynch

3, Matt_s

-

RangeroftheNorth, massive, Khelvaster

2, Khelvaster

-

crazy_vlad, Coolbot,

1, Destructor

-

ting =)

1, Ting =)

-

eljcko

Not Voting:

5, Zyrconium, Spindax, destructor, GSGold, Matt_S

I'm voting because I want to. I don't get why anyone would suggest a name claim on day 1, but I'd think it would probably benefit the town more. And I haven't "constantly apologized", I've expressed my dislike for the situation. I'm voting for someone whose motives confuse me. If you have a problem with that, that's fine. But your problem is that nobody else has done anything to get as much attention, and you're saying I'm fishy for attacking Khelvaster for his actions. But if it makes you happy I'll target someone else.

FoS eljcko

. Khelvaster says that if people weren't Fellowship, they just had to tell everyone. Yet he says there aren't 9 power roles, and says that because of that there's nothing wrong with asking if people are in the fellowship or not. The only thing I can guess is that he thinks names are connected with power roles. So in other words, "nonfellowship people, a.k.a. vanilla townies, come forward so we don't accidentally night kill you".

Of course he says this isn't what he meant, but the more I read his posts the less I believe him. I don't believe you either, eljcko. You seem to think that my vote is just to conform. It's not. I don't really know what else I can say that hasn't been said. Oh, except this: you said Khelvaster was "very suspicious" in your first post, yet you now start defending him once more people are looking at him. Realize this: if Khelvaster comes up scum you're my next vote.

You are incredibly wrong, Matt. What I'm saying is that being in the fellowship won't affect whether you are a power role or not. Thus, I doubt there are 9 powerroles. You've been misinterpreting me throughout the whole game, and I'm sick of it. If I saw exactly three people say they weren't in the fellowship, we would win because the 9 townies were in the fellowship.

I've had it with your putting words into my mouth.

Vote: Matt

[Matt_S]

Moving off of the lurky lynch, he says "the more I think about it, the more likely it is he's town, but since you all are voting for him, why not?"

The logic that Matt_S seems to be missing seems pretty obvious to me:

1. I'm Fellowship.
2. If I'm Fellowship, there are probably other Fellowship roles out there.
3. If there are other Fellowship roles out there, there is a possibility that all nine are out there.
4. If there are nine Fellowship roles, they are the town.

That's not even hard to follow. Khelvaster readjusted his attacking points, but that is the logic flow of it, in a nutshell.

unvote, vote Matt_S

I think Matt_S got lucky, in that CoolBot came out as a non-Fellowship-er before he had to make a definitive stand. I think vanilla townie is the safest fake claim a scum can make. I think he is bandwagoning despite admitting that he thinks the actions of Khelvaster are more likely those of a townie. Is this the part where I type DIE SCUM DIE?

Good reasoning except for post 79 by me:

Post 75(which has a typo, I said would when I meant wouldn't >.>)

Other than my post there I can't prove one way or the other. But let me ask you this: Where would we be if I came out immediately after Khelvaster's post and said I didn't have a name? As I've said before, the reason I didn't do this was I wanted to see how people would react, thinking the people for the claim would be scum. If I had said I had no name, then the scum wouldn't have to claim and potentially get caught lying. As for the logic that you say is easy to follow, try looking from my perspective:

1. I'm a townsman with no name and no powers
2. Other people without powers are townsmen without names
3. If someone has a name, they aren't vanilla, a.k.a. power roles or possibly lying scum.
4. Everyone who asks for a name claim has a name or is scum.

It's pretty much the same as Khelvaster's logic, just using what I thought instead. Yeah, it was shown to be false, but so was Khelvaster's logic. It doesn't change the fact that at the time there was no reason to think either was false. I still think Khelvaster's assumption that we could end the game in 3 days without danger was suspicious, since I assume that a mod would know that would be no fun for either side.

And lurky lynch? I don't remember suggesting a lynch on him. I said vote for him, as in force him not to lurk.

You are incredibly wrong, Matt. What I'm saying is that being in the fellowship won't affect whether you are a power role or not. Thus, I doubt there are 9 powerroles. You've been misinterpreting me throughout the whole game, and I'm sick of it. If I saw exactly three people say they weren't in the fellowship, we would win because the 9 townies were in the fellowship.

I've had it with your putting words into my mouth. Vote: Matt

What you say is open to interpretation. It's easy to say after the fact that you meant something else. I don't like it when people think I'm trying to put words in their mouth, but I hate it when people act like they wouldn't do the same when on the attack. So think about this: What would you do if I suggested a mass name claim when you didn't even have a name? What if I got hell for suggesting it? Would you just assume I had the town's best interests in mind?

Since we know there are townies that weren't in the fellowship, voting someone who claims to not be in the fellowship wouldn't be a guaranteed win. Rather than give someone the benefit of the doubt, I chose to press them on it. Are you saying you wouldn't do the same? Up until now I didn't see a satisfactory explanation. Still though, there's no way for you to prove that's what you were thinking, the same way I can't prove what I was thinking.

Off topic: Vista randomly restarted and installed updates while typing this. Boo!
Firefox was nice enough to save my whole post in progress. Yay!

[massive]

1. I'm a townsman with no name and no powers
2. Other people without powers are townsmen without names
3. If someone has a name, they aren't vanilla, a.k.a. power roles or possibly lying scum.
4. Everyone who asks for a name claim has a name or is scum.

I don't make the logical connection between three and four here. I got to three. I fail to see how "having a name" immediately translates into "asking for names."

As for what would have happened if you had immediately said, "I have no name?" I think it's probably a moot point to discuss, but since it's been established that there DID exist other people who had names but weren't in the Fellowship, I think you would have been easily vindicated. It's fairly safe for someone (as CoolBot did, and others if I remember correctly) to come out and say "I'm not in the Fellowship." CoolBot did on the first page.

I don't believe that any scum could have been caught by watching people's reactions to the idea. It is simple enough for any Mafia member to abstain long enough to see how the town is leaning, and then to put in their opinion. Especially considering a topic so volatile as mass-claiming -- that idea is sure to see townspeople on both sides of the argument.

Nor do I believe you could have had any fear of being lynched simply for not going along with Khelvaster's suggestion -- it would have required eight Fellowship members, three Mafia, and a generic townie (you). Even THAT seems like a preposterous setup.

[Khelvaster]

Moving off of the lurky lynch, he says "the more I think about it, the more likely it is he's town, but since you all are voting for him, why not?"

The logic that Matt_S seems to be missing seems pretty obvious to me:

1. I'm Fellowship.
2. If I'm Fellowship, there are probably other Fellowship roles out there.
3. If there are other Fellowship roles out there, there is a possibility that all nine are out there.
4. If there are nine Fellowship roles, they are the town.

That's not even hard to follow. Khelvaster readjusted his attacking points, but that is the logic flow of it, in a nutshell.

This is indeed my logic flow. I felt it was so blatantly obvious that I didn't need to list it. Thanks for making it a little more apparent.

I think Matt_S got lucky, in that CoolBot came out as a non-Fellowship-er before he had to make a definitive stand. I think vanilla townie is the safest fake claim a scum can make. I think he is bandwagoning despite admitting that he thinks the actions of Khelvaster are more likely those of a townie. Is this the part where I type DIE SCUM DIE?

Vanilla townie is also the most common claim a non-scum can make. That neither proves nor disproves guilt. The bandwagonning is what worries me the most, and what provoked me to vote Matt.

Good reasoning except for post 79 by me:

Post 75(which has a typo, I said would when I meant wouldn't >.>)

Other than my post there I can't prove one way or the other. But let me ask you this: Where would we be if I came out immediately after Khelvaster's post and said I didn't have a name?

I would have asked for one person who was in the fellowship and was vanilla to claim their exact name. I wouldn't have claimed vanilla town myself, as that would have seemed a bit too manipulative. Better to have another townie verify that what I was saying was true. Anyway, given one pro-town outside the fellowship and one vanilla inside the fellowship, I would have given up the massclaim. The town would have gained one confirmed vanilla townie and one confirmed pro-town.

As I've said before, the reason I didn't do this was I wanted to see how people would react, thinking the people for the claim would be scum.
If I had said I had no name, then the scum wouldn't have to claim and potentially get caught lying.

And it obviously follows that saying "this is a bad idea, but I can't say why" is not going to influence reactions in any way...

As for the logic that you say is easy to follow, try looking from my perspective:

1. I'm a townsman with no name and no powers

That works as a valid assumption for this logical process

2. Other people without powers are townsmen without names
3. If someone has a name, they aren't vanilla, a.k.a. power roles or possibly lying scum.

Now, where might I ask did you figure this out? A Lord of the Rings mafia probably has all named characters. Merry might be town, but he is still Merry Brandybuck.

4. Everyone who asks for a name claim has a name or is scum.

This only works if everyone accepts 2 and 3. If you accept 2 and 3 as true, but not everyone does, then this falls apart. Furthermore, even if 4 is true, I still could be named and scum, or named and not scum. I don't have to be a nameless scum.

Your logic fails miserably. Only one assumption is any good, and none of your conclusion is.

It's pretty much the same as Khelvaster's logic, just using what I thought instead. Yeah, it was shown to be false, but so was Khelvaster's logic.

If you had posted the logic sooner, it would have been thrown in the trash. It's completely idiotic.

It doesn't change the fact that at the time there was no reason to think either was false.

Yes, there was. Maybe Merry and Pippin are town. Maybe Aragorn is the doc, Gandalf is the cop, and everyone else is town. Maybe Merry and Pippin are a masonpair, along with Frodo and Sam, and everyone else is town.

I still think Khelvaster's assumption that we could end the game in 3 days without danger was suspicious, since I assume that a mod would know that would be no fun for either side.

[quote="Khelvaster]I was hoping to trap the mod, if he ended up giving 9 fellowships and 3 non-fellowships.[/quote]

Mods mess up occasionally. If he did, we'd get a nice, easy win.

And lurky lynch? I don't remember suggesting a lynch on him. I said vote for him, as in force him not to lurk.

Lynch all lurkers is a great scumtell. Voting people without wanting to lynch them just doesn't happen. Have mods prod lurkers, don't vote them.

You are incredibly wrong, Matt. What I'm saying is that being in the fellowship won't affect whether you are a power role or not. Thus, I doubt there are 9 powerroles. You've been misinterpreting me throughout the whole game, and I'm sick of it. If I saw exactly three people say they weren't in the fellowship, we would win because the 9 townies were in the fellowship.

I've had it with your putting words into my mouth. Vote: Matt

What you say is open to interpretation. It's easy to say after the fact that you meant something else. I don't like it when people think I'm trying to put words in their mouth, but I hate it when people act like they wouldn't do the same when on the attack.[/quote]

Well, I don't do this unless I am some anti-town role. When I'm town attacking people, I avoid doing things to get them lynched unfairly. I admit I'm wrong when I misinterpret people. You don't seem to be doing either of these things much.

So think about this: What would you do if I suggested a mass name claim when you didn't even have a name? What if I got hell for suggesting it? Would you just assume I had the town's best interests in mind?

I would post and say that I didn't have a name and that the mod obviously didn't mess the setup up. I would assume you had the town's best interests in mind. If you got hell for suggesting it from three or two players, I would put them high on my scumdar. If most of the town gave you hell, I'd assume it was was a newbie mistake on your part, unless you were flying with blatant disregard towards logic.

Since we know there are townies that weren't in the fellowship, voting someone who claims to not be in the fellowship wouldn't be a guaranteed win.

Now we know. Before we knew, if there were only three people outside the fellowship, chances would be high the mod screwed up and we'd win.

Rather than give someone the benefit of the doubt, I chose to press them on it. Are you saying you wouldn't do the same? Up until now I didn't see a satisfactory explanation. Still though, there's no way for you to prove that's what you were thinking, the same way I can't prove what I was thinking.

Giving me the benefit of the doubt isn't necessary to follow logic. I just disproved your logic--it has hardly any basis in reality. You've been single-mindedly blasting me the entire game. You haven't helped the town at all.

You can see my response to your whole post. I strongly feel you are scum, and would love to see you lynched today.

[Khelvaster]

Wow...I'm sorry for such a monster post.

[ting =)]

Haha, yes, that is a really long post. You should be sorry. =P

Okay, I've laid off actually mentioning much about the whole khelvaster v matt thing because I thought it was a messy arguement and I wasn't really inclined to either side. I think it's time I do though.

Like I said in the beginning, I thought khelvaster's logic went, and he just confirmed:

A name-claim would only be good if we assume that

a) all named people in the fellowship are town.
c) all 9 names in the fellowship have been used.

And I thought:

Anyway, since I really don't think 9 power roles would be appropriate, and giving a player a fellowship name but making him vanilla townie is pretty stupid, I think it's more likely that there are only as many fellowship members here as power roles, and claiming any name would mark you as a probable power role.

I haven't changed my opinions on khel. I still don't think the mod would have used all 9 fellowship names, which is why I wasn't inclined to agree to a name claim, but his logic on its own is not scummy, which is why I said I didn't really suspect khel.



What I'm posting about now though, is Matt. I'm inclined to think that Matt is really vanilla townie. As I see it:

1. I'm a townsman with no name and no powers

2. Other people without powers are townsmen without names

Read posts 12, 14, 15 and 28. Especially 12 and 28. I can't quote, because you need to take the whole thing in context, and I dont' want to quote his whole post. HE DID NOT KNOW THERE WERE PEOPLE WITH NAMES. His PM did not give him a name, or indicate that there were people with names. He thought all vanillas got the same PM as him. Before he came right out and explicitly said that he was unnamed in post 28, no one, except coolbot hinting, but not saying in 14, mentioned anything about nameless people.

In fact, Khelvaster's post 8 does not take into account nameless people. He mentions fellowship names, nazgul names, suggests unorthodox names, but NO NAMELESS PEOPLE. I'm inclined to think you had no idea there were nameless people until Matt came right out and said it. If you knew there were nameless people, you wouldn't have been so sure in your plan working.

3. If someone has a name, they aren't vanilla, a.k.a. power roles or possibly lying scum.

I think his PM did not in any way indicate other people had names. That's why he FOSd me and gsgold in post 28 for not saying, or implying, that we knew there were nameless people. He figured he wsn't the only one, and was looking for other people who had no names to come out and say it. That's why to him, named people were either power roles or scum. I think that's why you never mention the possibility of named vanillas, Matt - because you're vanilla and nameless, so you assumed all other vanillas must be too.

4. Everyone who asks for a name claim has a name or is scum.

The link between his 3rd and 4th point, is that he's a nameless vanilla. To him, that makes all other vanillas nameless. Anyone with a name then, is either a power role or scum.

Also,

4. Everyone who asks for a name claim has a name

He had no name, and didn't know others had names. People with the same PM as him, wouldn't have known of names, and wouldn't have asked for a name claim.


I think that khelvaster is a power role. I think that Matt is a vanilla townie. If you read back on the first few pages, you can tell quite easily that some people knew there were names and had no idea there were nameless, and some were nameless and had no idea there were named people. That's why Matt was looking for nameless people.

There's too many posts to quote, but if you read back the first few pages in this context, you can sort out everyone into one of those two categories based on their posts. It's no indication of scumminess either way though, which is why Matt dropped this line of reasoning.

The whole khelvaster v matt arguement won't lead to any scum either. Both of you, and everyone, were running on completely different understandings on the game, until after everyone became nameless. That's why khel didn't think his idea wouldn't work until it was pretty clear quite a number of us were nameless, and that's why matt is no longer hunting for nameless people. Granted, we're all nameless now, but he, and the other nameless, could have attacked people now based on who had names before, but didn't bother.

We need to hunt for scum from a different perspective and drop the wagons on khel and matt.

Also, =) for khel for knowing Merry's last name. Lord of the Rings kicks ass.

[CoolBot]

Ting, regarding Khel, that makes sense. I still think Khel jumped to mass claim too quickly, but I can see why he'd do it.

unvote: Khelvaster

I less comfortable with matt, though. In particular, posts 69 and posts 71 raise red flags for me. He changed his mind from Zyconium to khel for no reason. The post in between was one of mine where I explain my vote on khel, but with emphasis that my vote was there only because there wasn't really anywhere else to put it. Looks like he was just looking for an excuse to put his vote there.

vote: Matt_S

[eljcko]

WOW. That was a lot too take in. First and foremost,

unvote

. Ting made pretty good defense and I can't really argue too much about it. I still don't trust you though, still fishy behavior IMO.

Matt_S has a lot of things hanging over him, but I have things that point to him being scum AND town respectively.

I'll wait for another townie to come and tell you why that won't work. But trust me, it won't.

That was post nine. He seems to know a lot about the townie PM, but there is no townie PM posted by Shaka. Two possibitites strike me right away.

1. Matt S is vanilla townie
2. Matt S is scum with the safe claim of vanilla townie. (i.e. knowing what the townie PM is)

From the beginning, I have always leaned towards #1, it seemed most logical and most likely. But, Matt_S started digging himself a grave.

Throughout, Matt S did not want to vote on Khelvaster, but oh well "its just too fishy to let go. After CoolBot pointed this out, he offers this in defense.

I didn't want to vote him at first because I didn't think scum would ask for a mass name claim. The more I thought about it, the more I've been thinking that a townie would ask for one on day 1. I just don't get what Khelvaster's logic would be no matter what side he'd be on, and like you said we really don't have anything else to go on. Right now, this seems like the only good play other than voting Zyrconium for lurking, which we can do later.

You just contradict yourself way too many times. We have had this discussion before. Its reallt pro-town, but I think he's scum. But let me present posts #69 and #71 about three hours apart.

Even if I had a name I wouldn't have gone with your plan. But I still can't believe a scum would suggest a name claim. I can see how people would be suspicious though, so I'm having trouble seeing who's most deserving of a vote. So I say we vote Zyrconium to get him to post here.

3 hours later

Well, I guess he is too fishy to let go. Unvote, Vote Khelvaster

I really wonder what would have happened if I hadn't said anything though...

Seriously, what the heck where you thinking Matt. It was really convienient that there was a solid bandwagon at the time of the vote, wasn't it? Trying to get a quick lynch? That's all it points to. My gut is leaning toward voting for you, I am going to go with that feeling.

Vote Matt_S

This is not my final vote, I am still not 100% on you. If you give me a solid reason to not vote for you, I'll unvote.

[Khelvaster]

<3 Ting for the shared Lord of the Rings love. It's a shame the book butchered the only two quotes I memorized. It's like memorizin

You cannot pass. I am a servent of the secret fire, wielder of the flame of Arnor. You cannot pass. Dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun. Go back to the shadows. You cannot pass.

The movie made this cool with graphics, but took out a couple of words from this.

Where now the horse and the rider?
Where is the Horn that was blowing?
where is the helm and the hauberk, and the bright hair flowing?
Where is the hand on the harpstring, and the red fire glowing?
Where is the spring and the harvest and the tall corn growing?
They have passed like rain on the mountain, like a wind in the meadow;
the days have gone down in the west behind the hills into shadow.
Who shall gather the smoke of the dead wood burning,
or behold the flowing years from the sea returning?

After ...blowing, they skip to ...they have passed, then the end after "shadow."


Bah, back to the game...All this Lord of the Rings stuff got me thinking about Ting.

I am getting incredibly powerful pro-town vibes from Ting. Ting is playing quite unagressively. There has been my bandwagon, and now there is Matt's bandwagon. He has gone out of his way not to hop these bandwagons. If he were scum, he could jump on without much effort.

[ting =)]

Of course you're getting powerful pro-town vibes from Ting. What did you expect? =P

Right-o then, you guys realize that there are 5 of you voting for Matt, yes? There's Khel, Eljko, Massive, Ranger, Coolbot - which puts Matt at L-2. I'm not going to deny that Matt's behaviour could be interpreted as scummy, but I maintain that I think he's vanilla townie.

For the moment, I honestly think you guys should unvote. I doubt anyone will hammer Matt, but there's no need to hold him so close to a lynch without any comment from him, and without a more concrete reason.

I've been looking at things from a different way and have a tentative scum list now, and destructor's not on it, so

unvote

. I wish I had time to posts my thoughts, but I don't. I'll try to post within 24 hours, but no guarantees.

p.s. The part that made me slightly miffed about the movie was that they changed the ending with the scouring of the shire. I wanted to see that... =(

Oh, and you mean it's a shame the MOVIE butchered, yes? *takes out matches to get ready for a flame war.* =)

[crazy_vlad]

mod

there are several players more absent than present in this game. it seems that ther are only 6 or 7 out of 12 in this game.
please send some prods as is difficult for me to say who's who in this game also I haven't seen yet a replacement for zycronium.

[shaka!!]

mod

there are several players more absent than present in this game. it seems that ther are only 6 or 7 out of 12 in this game.
please send some prods as is difficult for me to say who's who in this game also I haven't seen yet a replacement for zycronium.

I am looking for a replacement. I will prod anyone who hasn't posted in more than 5 days.

[Matt_S]

It seems I've kind of screwed up. I had questions for Khelvaster, and once I saw that I wasn't the only one suspicious, I figured I'd be able to get some answers. I thought I wouldn't be able to get anything if I was the only one suspicious, so it wasn't until I saw that there was pressure that I decided that voting for Khelvaster would work. It worked in the sense that I got answers, but I don't think I'll ever be able to see things from the same perspective. And I have to thank ting for being able to read my mind and defend me.

I didn't want to vote him at first because I didn't think scum would ask for a mass name claim. The more I thought about it, the more I've been thinking that a townie would ask for one on day 1. I just don't get what Khelvaster's logic would be no matter what side he'd be on, and like you said we really don't have anything else to go on. Right now, this seems like the only good play other than voting Zyrconium for lurking, which we can do later.

You just contradict yourself way too many times. We have had this discussion before. Its reallt pro-town, but I think he's scum.

Again I'll have to point to post 79, where I said that I meant to say wouldn't instead of would. As in, at the time I didn't see why a townie would suggest it.

[ting =)]

*blushes. Nah, it's no biggie. I mindread people all the time anyway.

Okay, I'm suspicious of Eljko, Coolbot and GSGold. Mostly Eljko though. I'd vote for him now, but to clarify my reasons, I need to put down what I'm seeing so far in my terms, just so I don't get confused later on.

The Named Town perspective.

For the last time, we didn't know that there were some townies outside of the fellowship.

...What I'm saying is that being in the fellowship won't affect whether you are a power role or not... If I saw exactly three people say they weren't in the fellowship, we would win because the 9 townies were in the fellowship.

I am associating the fellowship with not being scum, if all 9 fellowship members are present...

1. I'm Fellowship.
2. If I'm Fellowship, there are probably other Fellowship roles out there.
3. If there are other Fellowship roles out there, there is a possibility that all nine are out there.
4. If there are nine Fellowship roles, they are the town.

I chose these posts because they were the clearest summary of this way of thinking. Lots of people have cited this arguement, sometimes in contradictory directions, how you interpret whether you think they're actually town is up to you.

The Unnamed Townie perspective.

Anyways, I had no name, so I figured all other vanilla townies had no name. Thus I expected a lot more resistance to a name claim.

...I assumed that anyone who does have a big name is either a power role or scum, seeing as I don't....

You did just ask for names of the 9 in the Fellowship. Now think. If only power roles had had names, you would have ousted all of them.

I'm not part of the Fellowship. That's shouldn't be surprising, as the game would be seriously broken if the town was only the Fellowship. So it's likely all a mass claim would accomplish is give the mafia clues to who our power roles are.

...thinking the people for the claim would be scum. If I had said I had no name, then the scum wouldn't have to claim and potentially get caught lying. As for the logic that you say is easy to follow, try looking from my perspective:

1. I'm a townsman with no name and no powers
2. Other people without powers are townsmen without names
3. If someone has a name, they aren't vanilla, a.k.a. power roles or possibly lying scum.
4. Everyone who asks for a name claim has a name or is scum.

It's pretty much the same as Khelvaster's logic, just using what I thought instead.

[ting =)]

Now, a lot of the arguements so far are because everyone isn't seeing eye to eye. Post 89 is Matt clearly misinterpreting Khel. Post 103 is Khel not understanding Matt.

Both perspectives are broken ways of looking at the game. The Named because they didn't know there were unnamed vanillas, and the Unnamed because they didn't know there named vanillas.

If anyone is voting for anyone because of these reasons, they really should just unvote for now.


On the current Matt wagon: This grew big really fast. I'm inclined to think that at least one scum is on this wagon.

Ranger has been on this wagon from the beginning. It was a random vote.
Massive & Khel are on this wagon because they can't see how the Unnameds see things. Or maybe they could, but they just saw things more from the named perspective. I don't know, but I think they're clean.

Coolbot:

He changed his mind from Zyconium to khel for no reason. The post in between was one of mine where I explain my vote on khel, but with emphasis that my vote was there only because there wasn't really anywhere else to put it. Looks like he was just looking for an excuse to put his vote there.

He did not change his vote for no reason. If you read all of Matt's posts from the top, he's always suspected Khel, but he's always held back because he could see that a name claim would have been bad for named scum. He changed his vote once it was apparent that everyone suspected khel too. You could call it herd mentality, or maybe he thought the wagon justified his suspicions.

Eljko:

Seriously, what the heck where you thinking Matt. It was really convienient that there was a solid bandwagon at the time of the vote, wasn't it? Trying to get a quick lynch? That's all it points to. My gut is leaning toward voting for you, I am going to go with that feeling.

Eljko's seems the most suspcious. It's really convenient for you too that there's a bandwagon on Matt right now to - shiot, i have to go. your actions on the first few days raise red flags for me. you're clearly named. but you were against the claim, even before you found out there wre unnameds. other nameds were for it then, because it would have worked.

[shaka!!]

Prods sent to destructor, GSGold, RangeroftheNorth and Spindax.

Still looking for Zycroniums replacement.

[crazy_vlad]

thanks

mod

I've come to some conclusion, but as 5 out of 12 are not here I think its quite risky for any judgments.
As for what's being said...I don't agree with a L-2 situation - the reason can be found right above. I started a debate mend to clarify whether Kel was or not a good guy. it seems now that he is of the hook, and replaced by Matt.
I've said in one of my first posts that I don't think Matt's a scum because he was very active when it would have been more easier - as a potential bad guy- to keep a low profile. I admit some of his moves were not maybe so inspired and I agree to put some of them into discuss. But as I didn't agree with a bandwagon on Khel, but just with a vote or two just to start a debate, I also don't agree with starting that one on Matt and right now on any of the 7 players (including me) who were in this game so far. From what I know maybe the bad guys are not among as. Maybe is just one, or maybe more. I don't know and again I won't rush in any judgments. So far, I've voted only once, as a first vote for Khelvaster. I've made my point: the debate was carried out even though there was no conclusion. At this moment I

Unvote

and I'll wait for messages from the 5 inactive players. Messages with some content. Not just hi and some bla blas.
Till we meet again...[/b]

[destructor]

Got a prod. Sorry, will get to this game in a few days. =/

[crazy_vlad]

I rest my case

[Khelvaster]

I lol at that.

[shaka!!]

Imat

replaces Zycronium.

Effective immediately.

[destructor]

That's a little embarrassing. I'm halfway through page 3 in my reread. Will have the rest read and post up my summary tomorrow.

[eljcko]

Eljko's seems the most suspcious. It's really convenient for you too that there's a bandwagon on Matt right now to - shiot, i have to go. your actions on the first few days raise red flags for me. you're clearly named. but you were against the claim, even before you found out there wre unnameds. other nameds were for it then, because it would have worked.

I got that you are accusing me of being named. But are you accusing me of being a power role or scum. (or either.) I'm sorry, I just got confused.
And in the meantime, Imat, you are responsible for

every

post from zyrconium. Just informing you.

[Khelvaster]

Guys, don't hassle Imat needlessly. Let him give his side of the story before asking him things.

[Matt_S]

I feel sorry for Imat for having to read through all this confusion.