Mini 586 - Blood Red Mafia - Game Over!

[DarlaBlueEyes]

I would like to hear from Mac. His somewhat sudden Lurkdom once he accrued multiple votes doesn't help my FoS.

and I agree the whole 'Everyone is Scummy until proven innocent' thing seems backwards as well. Innocent until Proven Guilty. Or as Amor said, at least until we have compelling evidence otherwise.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

first, unvote.

I gave an FoS because I thought that a vote on someone

would

sound

more scummy

right now then a FoS.

Interesting choice of words. Why are you so concerned with what might sound scummy?

I was so worried about

looking

scummy

because at the time (bottom of pg.2)

no one else

had really

done

any scummy things

. I realize now it might not have been the best move (hey, I'm no expert) but that was the

best move in my mind

at the time.


Vote: Macavenger pressure time![/b]

Attention!

We simply cannot pass these statements up. This is blatantly obvious that he is SUPER worried about his APPEARANCE. Only foul people worry about their appearance. He does not want to "sound" or

be caught

"looking" scummy. And that is exactly what he has done. Malthusis, you, of most people, are "looking" like and very much "sound" like scum. Well, Malthusis, you have "done" the "scummy things".

Unvote: Travis; Vote: Malthusis

Now, this does not clean my palate with Travis, but more than adequate evidence compels me to vote for Malthusis.

[DarlaBlueEyes]

Is it not possible that malth is a nervous Vanilla? or a Cop or something who it will harm the town to kill? Yea his statements are suspect but just because one is nervous doesn't automatically make them scum in my book. Hell if i had 3 votes I would be nervous too. No one wants to get killed, cos no one wants to lose.

I am wondering why you are so dead set and over zealously hunting SoW. To me that says a SK or a Scum, or it could just an excited townie, I dunno but I think we need to focus more on solid scumtells like Mac's semantics and dodging than we do what some otherwise townie seeming poster's reactions are to being bandwagoned.

again if Mac can convince me otherwise of his scummy/not scummy-ness, and I see more scumtells from Malth, I just might vote for him, but not yet. I am not convinced.

[caf19]

I'd just like to say that I think it's legitimate to be concerned about looking scummy as a townie. If you're a townie and you act suspiciously and get yourself lynched, then you've hurt your own team. Of course, if you're worrying about it so much that it prevents you from properly scumhunting or expressing your opinions, then it becomes a problem.

That's mostly theory, though - I don't really want to defend Malth in this instance. Malth's response worries me not because of his concern about looking scummy, but because he seems to be saying that he thought a vote would stand out and a "Major FoS" would not. To me, this is clearly the opposite of how it actually works, given that this was still Page 2 and we'd just seen a page full of random or semi-random votes. So I doubt the honesty of that particular response.

Everyone is scummy until proven otherwise. A good method is to apply some pressure and see if they provide any/more scum tells or not.

While I admire the aphoristic tone of this response, it wasn't really a straight answer to my question. Do you actually find Mac to be one of the most suspicious players?

While I'm not a huge fan of the Mac wagon, it would be helpful if he actually posted something at this point. Prod, maybe?

[Riceballtail]

While I admire the aphoristic tone of this response, it wasn't really a straight answer to my question. Do you actually find Mac to be one of the most suspicious players?

Yes, I do. I also think Mal is starting to get suspicious, but Mac is showing up fairly well on my scumdar.

[DarlaBlueEyes]

can we get a

mod prod on Mac

pls?

[Macavenger]

Sorry about the lurking, had a couple busy days crop up here. Should be able to post something meaningful tomorrow barring more surprises; I'm tired and going to bed right now.

[CoheedCambria09]

Im' waiting for Malthusis and Macavenger to make their statements, both not looking good in my eyes right now.

[Cogito Ergo Scum]

Notice:

I'll unexpectedly be unable to post from Monday to Friday this week. Sorry for the inconvenience. Friday evening, I'll be back and fully active.

[populartajo]

Waiting for Macavenger.

[Travis]

Alright long weekend working I will read through the thread and get some thoughts posted. Sorry for any delay.

Travis

[Travis]

Malthusis,

I would like to know how many games of mafia you have played online in the past?

Also

Would you agree or disagree that everyone looks scummy at some point?
Is it better to lynch a scummy looking person or wait for more concrete evidence?
What color hair do you have?

Thanks
Travis

[Macavenger]

I was testing a theory that you seemed a bit jumpy in your responses to stuff flying around in the random voting stage.
You just flunked the test. Badly. And get to keep the vote as a result.

Why did he flunk the test? For being jumpy? What does his reaction prove?

He was jumping way too hard at shadows in the random voting stage, and tossing way more suspicion around than events warranted. A second vote in the random voting stage is virtually meaningless. I agree that my method of putting it on was slightly suspicious; that was intentional. Questioning why I voted in that matter is perfectly legitimate. Even throwing a normal FoS in with it probably would be. Calling it "extremely bad" and throwing a "major FoS" without asking for any clarification first is someone reading a lot more into a page 2 vote than they should be. This is more likely to come from scum, because scum have more to lose from being lynched than town does.

A) Possibly. But it's far more likely to catch scum.

Why? Because eager townies are scum too?

Of course they aren't. Eager townies are more likely to respond with questions, trying to figure out the motives of odd behavior, rather than with near OMGUS levels of suspicion.

B) Reactions are what this game is all about. Scum are more likely to overreact because they have more to lose by dying than a townie does.

No, scum can simply ignore you and a townie can overreact to an acussation because duh, you're accusing of something he or she is not.. My point is that although reactions are helpful, your "test" doesnt prove who's scum or who's not.

Sure, those things could happen. It's just less likely. I never said it proved anything. I saw something on page 2 that I thought was worth looking into. I looked into it, and the reaction I got made me think it was worth looking at more.

I never said I thought Malthusis is clearly scum or called for him to be lynched. I think he's more likely to be scum than town currently, but it's not like I've made a total decision there. My request for more pressure votes was certainly genuine, but this is again aimed at seeing how he reacts. One reaction on page 2 is not worth lynching on. It is worth asking more questions about, though. If it looked like I was calling for him to be lynched, it's because I wanted to see if Malth read that into my statements and reacted to it. He didn't, which is a point in his favor. More on that later, though.

Everyone is scummy until proven otherwise. A good method is to apply some pressure and see if they provide any/more scum tells or not.

Ok, what made you decide to pressure me specifically, instead of one of the other 10 players in the game?

About reactions, it seems to me that everyone can react differently, they're helpful, I know, but they dont prove anything.

When did I ever say I thought it proved anything? The only real proof in mafia comes with death.

This is dodging the question. Tajo questioned whether this method would lead us to scum and Mac dodged with semantics. Obviously you thought it was valuable or you wouldn't have voted based on it. Also, the last sentance seems to be setting up for a "Oops, he was town" post later. This makes me more than a little suspicious, but probably not enough to hop on the bandwagon.

You either weren't reading carefully or you just made this up. The part I quoted was a reply tajo made to something Darla said, it was not a question for me. Technically, if you want to accuse someone of dodging the question, tajo never replied to that specifically; however since I was asking in order to gauge his reply and his reply to my other part didn't ring any scum alarms with me, I don't really care. Yes I voted based on it and thought it had some value. That is not the same thing as thinking it proves he's scum.

I was still being deliberately opaque at this point because I was still testing to see what kind of replies I would get from tajo and Malth. They've both pretty much reacted to everything I wanted to see though, so there's not much point in me continuing to be so obscure at this stage.

Is it not possible that malth is a nervous Vanilla?

or a Cop or something who it will harm the town to kill?

Where the heck did this italicized part come from?

I am wondering why you are so dead set and over zealously hunting SoW. To me that says a SK or a Scum, or it could just an excited townie, I dunno but I think we need to focus more on solid scumtells like Mac's semantics and dodging than we do what some otherwise townie seeming poster's reactions are to being bandwagoned.

Zealous scumhunting is a very good thing. The idea that someone scumhunting too hard is suspicious is not a good one; see Too Townie. If you think he's making flawed arguments, call him for that, but thinking he's suspicious for trying too hard is not productive.

Reactions to eing wagoned are usually a great way to tell if someone is scum, btw.

I'd just like to say that I think it's legitimate to be concerned about looking scummy as a townie. If you're a townie and you act suspiciously and get yourself lynched, then you've hurt your own team. Of course, if you're worrying about it so much that it prevents you from properly scumhunting or expressing your opinions, then it becomes a problem.

I pretty much agree with this. Town certainly doesn't want to look scummy, but that should be a lower priority for them than finding scum. For scum it's their top priority. I asked that question of Malth not because I think townies shouldn't be worried about it, but again because I wanted to see what kind of response I would get. Which leads nicely into my last point here:

I was so worried about looking scummy because at the time (bottom of pg.2) no one else had really done any scummy things. I realize now it might not have been the best move (hey, I'm no expert) but that was the best move in my mind at the time.

I have to agree with SoW and caf19 here. This doesn't look so good both because it appears that not looking scummy is more of a concern than finding scum, which isn't good, and also because you were wrong - votes at that stage of the game would be less suspicious than a "major FoS."

In fact, Malthusis has not actually done any scumhunting in this game, unless you want to count his overblown, OMGUSy accusation of me on page 2. My vote is staying on him now for this reason.

[Riceballtail]

Everyone is scummy until proven otherwise. A good method is to apply some pressure and see if they provide any/more scum tells or not.

Ok, what made you decide to pressure me specifically, instead of one of the other 10 players in the game?

I chose you as you already had a wagon formed, making it a bit easier than trying to pull four or five people onto a different wagon when you had some scummy behavior.

Is it not possible that malth is a nervous Vanilla? or a Cop or something who it will harm the town to kill?

Defending a scumbuddy?

I am wondering why you are so dead set and over zealously hunting SoW. To me that says a SK or a Scum, or it could just an excited townie, I dunno but I think we need to focus more on solid scumtells like Mac's semantics and dodging than we do what some otherwise townie seeming poster's reactions are to being bandwagoned.

Zealous scumhunting is a very good thing. The idea that someone scumhunting too hard is suspicious is not a good one; see Too Townie. If you think he's making flawed arguments, call him for that, but thinking he's suspicious for trying too hard is not productive.

Reactions to eing wagoned are usually a great way to tell if someone is scum, btw.

Agreed, which is why this was being used on you by me. I have what I want from you now.

I'd just like to say that I think it's legitimate to be concerned about looking scummy as a townie. If you're a townie and you act suspiciously and get yourself lynched, then you've hurt your own team. Of course, if you're worrying about it so much that it prevents you from properly scumhunting or expressing your opinions, then it becomes a problem.

I pretty much agree with this. Town certainly doesn't want to look scummy, but that should be a lower priority for them than finding scum. For scum it's their top priority. I asked that question of Malth not because I think townies shouldn't be worried about it, but again because I wanted to see what kind of response I would get.

I've done this before too. A good strategy to use, and it's done wonders before.

UNVOTE

FoS:Darla

for defending your buddy.

[DarlaBlueEyes]

I simply meant that whether malth is scum or not, he obv. doesn't want to be lynched (again no one does) and yeah he seems especially focused on not being lynched. I was just giving him the benefit of the doubt, is thinking *maybe* he could be a power role that was pro-town. I need to hear from him on that before he has my vote.

Certainly not defending him, just trying to be understanding. I know when you get a bad start how the littlest slip up can landslide into a big problem. Not ruling him out by anymeans. But trying t give him a fair chance to 'redeem' himself if you will.

Malth, You can really recover here by working with us to find scum like said above you seem more focused on defending than hunting, and im afraid that does make me suspect you somewhat.

and I am pretty pleased with your explanations Mac,

unvote

[DarlaBlueEyes]

This would be a lot easier if we could get posts from more people, Hard to find scum with such small amounts of activity.

[Macavenger]

I chose you as you already had a wagon formed, making it a bit easier than trying to pull four or five people onto a different wagon when you had some scummy behavior.

Good answer. I actually found nothing particularly suspicious about your vote, but it never hurts to check.

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Love the developments. Now, I think we may be getting somewhere in the game. I have more to say, but it will come this afternoon. I have a deadline with one school project today. But, after it is in, I will say my piece. I just want to let you know that I am still in the game and will present my thoughts soon.

[goborage]

Is it not possible that malth is a nervous Vanilla? or a Cop or something who it will harm the town to kill? Yea his statements are suspect but just because one is nervous doesn't automatically make them scum in my book. Hell if i had 3 votes I would be nervous too. No one wants to get killed, cos no one wants to lose.

I am wondering why you are so dead set and over zealously hunting SoW. To me that says a SK or a Scum, or it could just an excited townie, I dunno but I think we need to focus more on solid scumtells like Mac's semantics and dodging than we do what some otherwise townie seeming poster's reactions are to being bandwagoned.

again if Mac can convince me otherwise of his scummy/not scummy-ness, and I see more scumtells from Malth, I just might vote for him, but not yet. I am not convinced.

I'd like to point out again that there isn't such a thing as too much scum-hunting. The more discussion the better. What I don't like is your constant defending of everyone. I'm not saying this makes you scum, but you should let the accused defend themselves.

[DarlaBlueEyes]

very well, I can do that

[populartajo]

A) Possibly. But it's far more likely to catch scum.

Why? Because eager townies are scum too?

Of course they aren't. Eager townies are more likely to respond with questions, trying to figure out the motives of odd behavior, rather than with near OMGUS levels of suspicion.

Whats the problem with Malthusis reacting with an OMGUS? Its pretty possible that a townie could have reacted like that because again, the only thing you did was post : "Vote: Malthusis" with no explanation at all. Again, he could be scum, I know that someone will come up with : oh, god he's so defending him, but my point is that his reactions dont prove anything and make wonder abour your reasoning, Macavenger. Seriously.

Everyone is scummy until proven otherwise. A good method is to apply some pressure and see if they provide any/more scum tells or not.

Ok, what made you decide to pressure me specifically, instead of one of the other 10 players in the game?

I bet Malthusis is asking himself the same question.

Zealous scumhunting is a very good thing. The idea that someone scumhunting too hard is suspicious is not a good one; see Too Townie. If you think he's making flawed arguments, call him for that, but thinking he's suspicious for trying too hard is not productive.

I know about too townie but theres something that feels weird in his posting, I dont know yet.

In fact, Malthusis has not actually done any scumhunting in this game, unless you want to count his overblown, OMGUSy accusation of me on page 2. My vote is staying on him now for this reason.

So, conclusion, what are your reasons for voting him: reacting or not scumhunting?

Is it not possible that malth is a nervous Vanilla? or a Cop or something who it will harm the town to kill?

Defending a scumbuddy?

Is this a serious accusation?

FoS: Rice

Rice, who do you suspect and why?

[malthusis]

Macavenger wrote:
Riceballtail wrote:
Everyone is scummy until proven otherwise. A good method is to apply some pressure and see if they provide any/more scum tells or not.
Ok, what made you decide to pressure me specifically, instead of one of the other 10 players in the game?

I bet Malthusis is asking himself the same question.

Good point.

Malthusis,

I would like to know how many games of mafia you have played online in the past?

I have played 3 previous to this. If you're looking for meta, the one that I was active in most is in Omod in this forum.

populartajo wrote:
Quote:
A) Possibly. But it's far more likely to catch scum.

Why? Because eager townies are scum too?

Of course they aren't. Eager townies are more likely to respond with questions, trying to figure out the motives of odd behavior, rather than with near OMGUS levels of suspicion.

Last time I checked 'Why would you vote for no reason at all?' (#48) was a pretty valid question.It was fairly obvious that I was trying to figure out why you did that.Heck, even after you said what it was I was trying to figure out why.

I would ask to prod some people right now, but it's not going to help considering the fact that the mod is gone till Friday

[Shepherd_of_Wolves]

Is it not possible that malth is a nervous Vanilla? or a Cop or something who it will harm the town to kill? Yea his statements are suspect but just because one is nervous doesn't automatically make them scum in my book. Hell if i had 3 votes I would be nervous too. No one wants to get killed, cos no one wants to lose.

Recount the votes. Before I voted Malthusis he had 2 votes. Since I have voted, making it 3, he has only said one pointless thing. All of his suspect comments were prior to 3 votes.

I am wondering why you are so dead set and over zealously hunting SoW. To me that says a SK or a Scum, or it could just an excited townie, I dunno but I think we need to focus more on solid scumtells like Mac's semantics and dodging than we do what some otherwise townie seeming poster's reactions are to being bandwagoned.

again if Mac can convince me otherwise of his scummy/not scummy-ness, and I see more scumtells from Malth, I just might vote for him, but not yet. I am not convinced.

Again, Malthusis was under no duress, no "bandwagon". If you are defending him, you should correctly defend him. Show us how he has credibility. I would prefer for him to show some too.

I am inclined to think he scum at this moment. It does not take long to evaluate what Malthusis has said so far. He has 8 super short posts. Here are some things to consider:

1) None of his posts have any substance.
2) He is excessively worried about "looking" and "sounding" scummy.
3) His reason for worrying was "

because

at the time (bottom of pg.2) no one else had really done any scummy things". His reason does not convey a feeling of innocence.
4) He has jumped in voting & FoS (again, with no substance to his shifting). His voting pattern is as follows:
a)vote: Mac
b)vote: Coheed
c)min FoS: Amor
d)maj FoS: Mac
e)vote: Mac (pressure time!)
What reason has he given?
5) He quickly jumps on the bandwagon when others have lead (not taking his own initiative), having no real explanation for his reason for joining, and on the person who was his main accuser (OMGUS is his only explanation to bring it to 4 votes).

I am accused of being too interested in scum hunting. I have very clear and reasonable explanations for my vote. I would like to know why I should remove my vote from Malthusis. I just I am not convinced that it is his townie/newbie anxiety. Malthusis, you have the opportunity to explain yourself. In this last post, you totally overlooked my concerns and inquiries. For the sake of town, if you are innocent, please give some indication.

[Riceballtail]

Rice, who do you suspect and why?

Right now, Darla has my highest suspicion, followed by mal. Amor shows up as moderately scummy, but not enough for me to be too concerned... yet.

Darla, as she is constantly "defending" with posts, but I feel like there could be some better help on the scumhunt and less focus on rationalizing other people. She seems quite focused on helping mal, which at minimum leads me to believe she's working with him in some way.

Mal, as many have stated already, has made several scummy statements, and not particularly done anything outside attempt to be defensive. He claims to have knowledge about online games, and yet people are attempting to say he just has "newbie anxiety". I disagree, as even though I haven't completed a game online yet, I know full well after one day that "newbie anxiety" should disappear after a week. If you're still worried about every possible thing you can do to make you scummy, that likely means that you are scum. As we have yet to see him take a very good defense or pro-town move, he indeed shows on my scum radar.

I see a strong link between Darla/Mal... and I don't like it at all. I see Mal having the better wagon right now, but Darla is the one I want to see under fire next.

So, for now,

VOTE: Malthusis

until you start being even remotely pro-town.

[DarlaBlueEyes]

I am still pretty new to all this, so my approach and my style if you will arent solidified.

I don't know for sure that Mal isn't scum at this time, but based on above posts about what he has done so far he really hasn't done that much. The same could be said of others too, I am only defensive of others because I am not really needing to (or up to now) defend myself, and I just didn't see the scumtells.

Now I will admit Malth is on my radar now, but as said above I am still not convinced. (on anyone)

I still find SoW fishy, Yeah scum hunting is great and benefits us all, it just seems he is too zealous.

My main FoS is on Travis, and it is a weak one, He is semilurking and hasn't offered much to the table. He has jumped on the questioning of Mal, but hasn't presented any thing himself.

My question for Travis: who do YOU think is scum reading this thread? why?

Same for Mal,

and feel free to question me too Rice, I am happy to answer for anything I have done so far.