Newbie 2087 | Celebrating Betty White | End!

[fferyllt]

Vote Count 3-3

Betty White's next sitcom was the beloved Mary Tyler Moore series from 1973 to 1977. The character of Sue Ann Nivens was originally a one-time appearance on a single episode in Season 3. Sue Ann was the star of the "Happy Homemaker Show". On the show she was incredibly saccharine and bubbly. But when the cameras stopped rolling she was acerbic, judgmental and man crazy. She was a hit, and the single episode became regular appearances during the last 3 seasons of the Mary Tyler Moore Show. She won 2 Emmys for her portrayal of Sue Ann.




5-ish minutes of Betty and other members of the cast and crew talking about Sue Ann's personality along with some great clips of her performances.

ProgoWoshua

(1): Ahri

Ahri

(1): ProgoWoshua

Not Voting

(4): Somnus, MalcolmTucker, Cape90

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to eliminate.

Deadline: February 8, Noon US Eastern Time.

Countdown: (expired on 2022-02-08 09:00:00)

Mod Notes:

-

[MalcolmTucker]

Ok. For starters...can people stop proposing these ridiculous 1v1 gladiator battles? This is a team game. If I agreed to this nonsense, which I don't, you'd easily get my vote right now, Progo, just based on today.

Ahri has been convinced you scum-slipped on Day One. I'm not, but it's something that has loomed over your head since post 436. Lickety planned on tunneling you hard Day 2 and he ends up dead Night One. Ok, there's a lot of reasons he could have been the night kill though. They certainly don't all involve you. He also wanted to push hard on Malcolm and Korina after you.

I hate that Ahri has basically given up on this game since early in Day 2. I really wish I read her as scum because it would be a pretty easy vote on Day 3. Unless she set up a bussing situation with Korina starting late Day 1 and then decided to coast to a quiet victory the rest of the way, I don't think she's scum. If we see a Day 4 and she and I are both somehow still around, I'll reassess my stance here, as I've done at the start of both Day 2 and Day 3.

With that said...no one should EVER read someone voting for themselves and then open-claiming mafia as pro-town. And then you changed your mind roughly an hour later (regret for throwing the game?). I hated when Ahri self-voted on Day 1 and thought it was a bad play, but I at least understood the situation she was setting up. I disagreed with it, and still do, but I at least understood her reasoning. Anyone who sees that play that you made here and says, "Wow! Such town!" will look arguably scummier than you.

This isn't personal. I like you as a person and you seem like a good dude. I don't know how you survive Day 3 with those posts though. And I say that for a few reasons. We went into Day 3 with two shots to lim the remaining scum. Despite not having any power roles left, that's not too bad. Let's say you somehow now survive Day 3 and we do in fact end up in a Day 4. Out of myself, Malcolm, Ahri, and Cape, 2 of those 4 are going to be in a vote with you still around and the insanity/open-mafia claim you just did is going to weigh in on the decision, rather than looking at everything else.

Here's the Outcomes I see:

1. If you're scum and you did this, I feel bad for Korina, and it's going to feel somewhat hollow if this is how we win. I'd still take it, but it'll feel kind of cheap.

2. You're town, and you go into a 2:1 on Day 4 (what mafia in their right mind is going to night kill you now?) with what you just did weighing heavily on the decision and potentially costing town the game.

3. You're scum and somehow coast to an easy scum victory now because people were insane enough to read what you pulled here and go, "Wow! What a townie move! Definitely not scum!". This one seems the least likely, as I doubt anyone is giving you townie points for any of this.

4. You're town and get voted off Day 3 for putting yourself at E-1 and open-claiming mafia after someone put a single vote on you with their entire argument literally being, "bc ur maf".


All four scenarios suck, with the first one sucking the least. In addition to all of that, with this post:

"I just picked one at random. But if you insists" (1145), I'd be concerned with you casting the game-deciding vote if we see a Day 4.

If you're scum, Korina is likely going to have a bone to pick with you post-game. If you're town and you helped give the game to scum by doing this, myself and 5 other people are going to have a bone to pick with you post-game. Even if you somehow flip town, I can't say I would have blamed Cape for quick-hammering you there. Same goes to Malcolm if he had been around during that. If ever there was a reason to quick-hammer someone, I'd say open-claiming mafia is right up there near the top of the list.

Again, you seem like a good dude and regardless of your alignment, I hope this isn't you basically quitting the game and mafia in general and then having regrets shortly thereafter. But to me, for all of the reasons I just outlined, I don't see how you can survive Day 3 here.

I'd like Ahri, Cape, and Malcolm to weigh in before I vote.

I'm largely in a similar boat to you here. I suspected Ahri for this early on - using erratic and odd plays which would ideally implicate you as a player, but which end up convincing the town you're actually one of them because it's such an odd approach to go on.

But yes, it's really difficult. Aside from me and you, we've got one player voting for themselves here, one player who's basically clocked out which is just incredibly poor form if you're going to commit to a game, and another player who is a replacement for someone else...if the latter is mafia, another player basically backed out over a turn into a game when they were under a bit of heat.

Anyway, logically, I'm still thinking Cape based on my theory we had one mafia on bandwagon in turn one and one person off it. I reckon SM joined with me because they saw Ahri as a reasonable target (in the way I did as a townie).

Considering we're not exactly convinced we've won so far, it'd make sense if we've got a fairly strong player still remaining at this point. When Cape entered the game they made a fair few good posts and managed to throw a lot of suspicion onto town players like CSF, who was of course eventually drawn out as mafia. Cape briefly put a bit of suspicion on Korina but never particularly sustained it.

This isn't in a bad way to Cape either...if anything it's a compliment, managed to conceal their position quite well given when they came into the game, and given the mess they've had to mop up since in certain regards with original mafia choices dropping out.

[MalcolmTucker]

If I were to put my suspicions in order, I'd go:

1. Cape
2. Progo
3. Somnus
4. Ahri

I dunno, reading through the game I can't just see an Ahri/Korina team. I've suspected Ahri throughout but in retrospect it increasingly seems like she was just erratic early on and can't be bothered playing now.

Progo's posts on the last page were incredibly suspect but my gut has said they're townie for a lot of the game so far. I'd have also said it'd have been unlikely for a Progo/Korina team to both go for Ahri at certain points, but then SM and Korina both went for Ahri. Hard to read.

[MalcolmTucker]

I wanted to make sure it wasn't someone else like Somnus, or Ahri.

I'm finding this post from Korina really interesting but extremely risky and odd. Korina was outed mafia by this point. It's one of the few posts we have in the game we have from someone who was confirmed mafia while still commenting.

What do we reckon Korina stands to gain from naming Ahri and Somnus specifically as other mason targets? Outright naming your teammate as someone you were suspecting for mason seems like an incredibly ballsy move if someone makes a connection or two between you. But by the same token, being honest and naming people you actually thought were masons vastly reduces the possible mafia pool! Especially when you've reached the endgame and there's only a few players left.

Do we think Korina was being genuine here, or aiming for a misdirect? It's an interesting post.

[Cape90]

VOTE: ProgoWoshua

go next

VOTE: ProgoWoshua

go next

Why me?

Okay I don't see mafia actually making this play today

[Cape90]

VOTE: ProgoWoshua

go next

Why me?

bc ur maf

and im in too many games so this one needs to finish so I can play more

meant to quote this instead of the why me thing

[Cape90]

If you're scum, Korina is likely going to have a bone to pick with you post-game. If you're town and you helped give the game to scum by doing this, myself and 5 other people are going to have a bone to pick with you post-game. Even if you somehow flip town, I can't say I would have blamed Cape for quick-hammering you there. Same goes to Malcolm if he had been around during that. If ever there was a reason to quick-hammer someone, I'd say open-claiming mafia is right up there near the top of the list.

I mean I vibe with everything in this post here, did you expect anything you said to be disagreeable Sommus?

But as for why I didn't hammer that, well, I was just confused by whatever play Progo was going for whether that would have been trying to bait mafia into hammering you or just claiming wolf because you believe you can't win in this gamestate, idk the motivation at play and the first one is flawed since I feel like a towny could have quite easily hammered there and understandably so.

[Cape90]

I would find it funny if both mafia have been just antagonizing me the whole game like Korina and Malcolm. As for Malcolm, I mean there is his POV today and lets note 1195. Also I would like to point out that Korina was pretty much on the same page as Malcolm as they were with me, look at 1068 for instance. This is before you get to the part where Malcolm gets voted over me by Korina despite saying more things about me 1133.

I suppose a counterargument to where Malcolm could be mafia is 918 where Malcolm looks especially paired with Korina.
Though I would say Malcolm said a similarish post on Progo, sort of not really in 346.

[ProgoWoshua]

Ahri will keep voting for me while I am alive. Because she's not really playing the game anymore, nothing that happens will convince her otherwise.

With that in mind, today can end in three ways:

• Case 1: We eliminate Mafia.
  Regardless of who they are (me, Ahri or someone else entirely), we find them and eliminate them. In this case, the Town wins.
  
  
  Case 2: We mis-eliminate me or Ahri.
  In this case, the game will be reduced to a 3 player ELo.
  
  
  Case 3: We mis-eliminate someone else.
  Both me and Ahri will survive the night. There's no way the Mafia will kill either of us. In this case, there's two possibilities:
  
  • Case 3.1: Ahri is Mafia.
    In this case, the third player will have to choose between me and Ahri anyway.
    
    
    Case 3.2: Ahri is Town.
    She'll vote for me, of course, and the real scum would hammer. In this case, the Mafia wins.

My point is

we can't afford to mis-eliminate someone that's not me or Ahri

. So, unless you're confident that you can sniff out and eliminate Mafia today, then you should vote for one of us.

I would prefer to eliminate Ahri because I know I'm Town, and I can't be certain about Ahri. But if you think I'm the most suspicious person out of the two, then vote for me.

[Somnus]

I think we have a pretty good idea of where everyone would stand in a potential Day 4. I'm not worried right now about who I would vote for in Day 4 though. I reassess at the start of each Day anyway after going through notes and ISOs. What I am worried about is going into a potential Day 4 with the uncertainty of this Day 3 incident still clouding a game-deciding vote. I'm going to be a little annoyed if Progo ends up flipping town, but I think it would be a bigger disaster to go forward without having an answer from what occurred here on Day 3, and letting an open-mafia claim and self-vote stroll into the end-game with no answer.

I think most of us have it narrowed down to 1 of 2 people who would likely be night-killed now, especially after yesterday's debacle, but I'm not going to do mafia's job for them and name who would make the most sense. I also think all of us have it narrowed down to 1 or 2 people if we see a Day 4. Like I said though, I'm not concerned with deciding my Day 4 vote now, especially since we may not even see a Day 4. For Day 3, I'm going to make the play that I think gives us a better than 1/5 chance (1/4 when you remove yourself) of catching scum on Day 3 and ending the game, and at worst, removes the uncertainty from yesterday.

VOTE: ProgoWashua

This is E-1

[Somnus]

I misspelled the name, but close enough.

@mod: Also, not that it matters now, but the most recent vote count says 4 were not voting instead of 3. Now it's 2.

[MalcolmTucker]

At this point I doubt Ahri is mafia. Don't see why it has to be one or the other.

[MalcolmTucker]

It seems like we may have a consensus on Progo potentially? Going by own logic re vote 1 I'm still thinking it's Cape now and we've ended up in this bizarre position where we had two replacement mafia.

VOTE: VOTE: Cape90

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm not 100% on Cape but most people seem to have a consensus and I doubt it was Korina with Ahri or Progo at this point. Happy to speed the game up a bit and go on what I reckon.

[Cape90]

Well, if I actually go over as a mislunch, I just want Progo to know that I don't think he should be going after Ahri in final 3 as the motivation they presented is pretty far from a scum motivation that I would expect mafia to have today at all, like the motif just doesn't fit in. Life kinda hit me all at once so, I would have loved to be more active today but yeah

[Cape90]

Well, if I actually go over as a mislunch, I just want Progo to know that I don't think he should be going after Ahri in final 3 as the motivation they presented is pretty far from a scum motivation that I would expect mafia to have today at all, like the motif just doesn't fit in. Life kinda hit me all at once so, I would have loved to be more active today but yeah

In other words, final 3, I would vote the other person unless Ahri just puts a vote on you before

[Ahri]

UNVOTE: ProgoWoshua

who's mafia, Progo?

[fferyllt]

Vote Count 3-4

After the Mary Tyler Moore show ended in 1977, several spin-off shows were spawned...Rhoda, Lou Grant, Phyllis all were based on MTM actors playing their characters from the earlier show. Except for the Betty White Show. She played Joyce Whitman, a sharp-witted actress in Hollywood who stars in her own TV show called Undercover Woman. It was a sitcom based on a fictional TV show, but that's pretty much where the parallels end. Although it was good, it wasn't a huge success. Fans wanted to see Sue Ann Nivens, and that's not what the show was about.



The first episode

ProgoWoshua

(1): Somnus

Ahri

(1): ProgoWoshua

Cape90

(1): MalcolmTucker

Not Voting

(2): Cape90, Ahri

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to eliminate.

Deadline: February 8, Noon US Eastern Time.

Countdown: (expired on 2022-02-08 09:00:00)

Mod Notes:

-

[ProgoWoshua]

UNVOTE: ProgoWoshua

who's mafia, Progo?

UNVOTE: Ahri

Malcolm and Cape are my two picks.

[Somnus]

UNVOTE: ProgoWoshua

who's mafia, Progo?

UNVOTE: Ahri

Malcolm and Cape are my two picks.

I won't be back on until much later this evening/tonight, but you do realize that this completely destroys the entire narrative you've set up over the last two days, correct? It also contradicts the assertion you've had for most of the game that one of the three people who had votes on you on Day 1 had to be mafia (2 of them are dead). That second point, I can easily explain away as a read naturally changing. That happens. Some of mine have as well over the course of the game. The first point though, based not just exclusively on the timing, just looks opportunistic, as Lickety said at the end of Day 1.

[ProgoWoshua]

UNVOTE: ProgoWoshua

who's mafia, Progo?

UNVOTE: Ahri

Malcolm and Cape are my two picks.

I won't be back on until much later this evening/tonight, but you do realize that this completely destroys the entire narrative you've set up over the last two days, correct? It also contradicts the assertion you've had for most of the game that one of the three people who had votes on you on Day 1 had to be mafia (2 of them are dead). That second point, I can easily explain away as a read naturally changing. That happens. Some of mine have as well over the course of the game. The first point though, based not just exclusively on the timing, just looks opportunistic, as Lickety said at the end of Day 1.

Yes, I do realize that. I was operating under the impression that Ahri wasn't playing the game anymore, and wouldn't change her vote for nothing. That was wrong.

[MalcolmTucker]

UNVOTE: ProgoWoshua

who's mafia, Progo?

UNVOTE: Ahri

Malcolm and Cape are my two picks.

I won't be back on until much later this evening/tonight, but you do realize that this completely destroys the entire narrative you've set up over the last two days, correct? It also contradicts the assertion you've had for most of the game that one of the three people who had votes on you on Day 1 had to be mafia (2 of them are dead). That second point, I can easily explain away as a read naturally changing. That happens. Some of mine have as well over the course of the game. The first point though, based not just exclusively on the timing, just looks opportunistic, as Lickety said at the end of Day 1.

Yes this is bizarre. Ahri has made like two posts and now he's reneged completely? Not getting the logic here.

[Ahri]

a c t i v i t y
p o s t

[Somnus]

Yeah this just isn't adding up to me, Progo. Ahri has made it clear that she believes the pool is down to you and Malcolm and that she doesn't care which one goes first (assuming we even see a Day 4). I don't operate that way and I reassess at the start of each Day phase, but it's just a difference in playstyle. I don't think Ahri temporarily unvoting you really changes her overall stance here.

And since you quickly walked back your mafia claim and now are saying that you believe Ahri is town, it means that the 1v1 you proposed on Wednesday and then reinforced on Thursday was going to be between two people you believed to be town.

The timing of this couldn't have been worse. Both your unvote, as well as your whole perspective changed once Cape had a vote on him and Ahri at least temporarily unvoted you. Opportunistic. The amount of effort Ahri is putting into the game at this point bears little to no consequence.

If you're scum, then great. Game over. If you're town, I don't think going into a game-deciding vote with this still clouding the decision is beneficial to town at all. You potentially flipping town isn't great, but as I said before, going into an end-game vote without any clarity here seems like the worst possible scenario to me.

[Somnus]

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... _All_Liars

Eliminate (Lim) All Liars is a longstanding mantra in the mafiascum.net community. Quite simply, most Townies have no reason to lie about their actions, motivations, or roles. Many newish Townies will attempt to lie in attempts to gambit, and fail miserably by hurting the Town in the process.

These lies can be indistinguishable from deliberate scum gambits, and leaving them unpunished reinforces the behavior as a viable option for scum.

For example, Vanilla Townies who try to roleclaim Doctor in an attempt to draw the Mafia's Night-kill tend to cause the real Doctor to counterclaim them, thus definitely causing the Mafia to target them. In addition to this, scum have been known to deliberately fakeclaim Doctor with the express purpose of drawing a counterclaim for this reason. The elimination of the Vanilla Townie is then justified.

Generally, gambits are not successful. If they were, they would probably be on this wiki or otherwise public knowledge. Thus, rather than wind up on the receiving end of Eliminate All Liars, it is best not to try to gambit unless you fully understand the implications of your actions. This comes primarily with experience.

Eliminate All Liars is also why scum should not wantonly gamble with the Town's patience as well.