Large Normal 241: Random Pictures and Other Stuff | Endgame

[Dannflor]

[Dannflor]

why does a gamma vote need much explanation

[Dannflor]

i think gamma is town btw

[Dannflor]

Hi Xof!

[Dannflor]

hey gamma

do you have any fresh reads you wanna share

xof and nero I think I'm willing to call town atp
why you asking?

Do you think it's unreasonable in some way for Datisi to ask you for reads

I give reads at my own pace so I wanted to know why Datisi wanted more from me

I liked this post. I'm pretty sure someone else commented similar but:

1. the independent kinda indignant attitude strikes me as town
2. it seems to show some reflexive curiosity about Datisi

gamma seems to be on the lower half of the player list consensus reads wise so I'd also suspect them of trying a little harder to look towny by explaining reads when prompted or offering up as much as they can. instead they are very relaxed and when prompted - doesn't share much and instead prods Datisi based on what seems to be a natural reason

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Frogsterking

[Dannflor]

I'm currently reading in a helter skelter fashion, GL

I also think Datisi is town

[Dannflor]

I don't town read marci and I think their emotional response to Ausuka can very much be genuine regardless of their alignment

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Frogsterking

y?

I don't think coming in as a replacement and automatically town reading all (or almost all) the active slots immediately shows you are critically thinking about the game at all

I think it shows you want to blend in with the crowd and survive

plus the survey as a substitute for content is icky

[Dannflor]

also idk about their meta but scum usually doesn't behave the way my predecessor did of giving out 0 content

they didn't even throw out a hedged read or some wishy washy faked reads

they were like, sorry my brain is overloaded and dipped. they didn't try and were perfectly content about that. they were a townie who got overwhelmed by the volume of the game.

I think Fireisred pushing there makes some sense because they were looking for something specific but I'm skeptical about genuine scum reads on the slot. Scum usually doesn't behave like that and I'd challenge people to find instances of scum behaving like that.

[Dannflor]

I don't town read marci and I think their emotional response to Ausuka can very much be genuine regardless of their alignment

have i done anything scummy?

I'm not sure yet

but you haven't done anything towny that I've read yet

[Dannflor]

I also think Datisi is town

y

largely your initial reactions to being scum read by several slots

I felt like I recognized it as a place I've been in multiple times before where it is difficult to keep your cool

I generally think scum tends to be more self conscious and you also strike me as a self-aware player in general, and as such I think you'd be a little more cognizant of going hyper defensive right off the bat.

particularly the post where you outlined your thought process in bullet points struck me as particularly natural frustration.

[Dannflor]

someone call me a deepwolf again. i will throw things

[Dannflor]

I townlean almost all of the active players, skitter specifically.

I'm sorry this is bothering me so much this is so weird

This is a high volume game with a lot of people who are great at faking tone

but *even still* I would expect at least some caution, especially when there is a lot of in-fighting between the active players? Adding skitter specifically just seems like a detail added to make the statement appear more real

[Dannflor]

I mean, I think in general most players ARE going to town read more active players. Now obviously, not all scum are going to be lurksacks but I feel like in the games I've played recently there's always been less active scum.

Yes, I agree with this generally

but if your role PM is green you should have some natural paranoia and curiosity that you won't have with a red pm

also townies love to find deepwolves

I don't know it's very strange to me to enter a game and be like let's kill the lurkers when you are replacing into a slot that made 2 posts

[Dannflor]

Do you think that post was all that serious? He just replaced in so he likely hasn't read that much and he's

specifically

town reading Skitter, despite not really being active. So it read kinda jokey to me?

I highly doubt he was joking

[Dannflor]

I do not consider that level 0 and I think it's very charitable to read that as a joke

[Dannflor]

I am unable to distinguish it tonally from the "xof and dann are scum" stuff it's sandwiched between which also seems serious

[Dannflor]

I've seen many players open with RQS or something similar and I think more than half the time they have been scum

it's not something I would base a confident read on alone but I've seen it happen enough times that my reaction is always negative

[Dannflor]

why would it seem serious

because it seems to be?????????????????????????

the part where he's talking about meta on my predecessor seems like he's trying to make a serious point?

I don't understand why I'm not supposed to be taking this seriously

am I pulling a skitter from the start of the game here

[Dannflor]

I was just reading the part where you were obviously making a joke and she was stuck on it as a genuine read you had for a couple pages

[Dannflor]

I don't think it's performative when they are actually going back to their ISOing

[Dannflor]

I really like DV's push on GL

[Dannflor]

Related question, what are your feelings on the elephant in the room?

OG i think elephant is townie because their posts are geared towards solving, i still think so. i think maybe elephant is the most townie seeming person on pl rn, but i have had a few doubts but i choose to ignore those!

could you put into more specific words why elephant is the more townie than anyone else?

[Dannflor]

frog do you have an opinion on me or my reaction to your entrance?

[Dannflor]

ok

[Dannflor]

VOTE: GuiltyLion

I think you got a little too excited

[Dannflor]

yeah I hate sifting through games of this size

[Dannflor]

I think as far as reactions to my entrance goes I liked HEM and Nero Cain

I expected Guilty Lion to want to engage with me more. It felt like he waited an obligatory amount of time to see what the vibes would be and then moved back to my wagon. And I sort of expect GL to be the type of player who likes to sort every player for himself

[Dannflor]

what are those silly little reads about danni

?

[Dannflor]

ydrasse came across as way more forced the one time I saw her as scum but also that Team Mafia which may have had some bearing on that?

[Dannflor]

I would join a wagon on Marci now I think

[Dannflor]

nothing mechanical has happened, we still have a lot of d1 left.

I'd recommend just focusing on staying present and responding to content that happens now. I generally think that's a lot more valuable than reading back but ymmv

welcome!

[Dannflor]

I would join a wagon on Marci now I think

whats your read on marci

meh

I'm waiting for more on "elephant is townie because their posts are geared towards solving" I don't really find that read scummy but I'm intrigued by the strength yet seeming lack of depth to it

idk marci occupies this weird liminal space where they are not really doing anything beyond just following the status quo reads wise. in fact I get the vibe that their main goal right now is to situate themselves among the big blob of active vaguely towny ppl. And I don't get the sense its a case like ydrasse where marci secretly has a bunch more reads and conspiracy theories behind the scenes that she's just not sharing

there's nothing in particular I can point to that's like, scummy on its own

but I'd like to see her do more

[Dannflor]

and it's weird because ydrasse has posted a lot less and you would think have done a lot less but I feel like I can track ydrasse's thought process better, or at least see that there might be one ticking away

[Dannflor]

I no longer have a read on Frogster

I guess lean town but I have a feeling I'm gonna find out they're always like this

[Dannflor]

We just played in a game together where I made very similar posts at the start of the game

[Dannflor]

I no longer have a read on Frogster

I guess lean town but I have a feeling I'm gonna find out they're always like this

can you tell me more about this read

mmmmmm

I thought they were being serious and it was scummy

but turns out they were actually being serious in a rlly pure way

is what I'm coming around to

[Dannflor]

- no
- he did throw scum reads at me and xof? that looked very much like fake sorting to me at the time. I think replacing into a game you're always looking to "catch up" so to speak which is where those motives can come from

[Dannflor]

I typed out a post I shouldn't have

I'm sorry I'm getting annoyed I'll come back later

[Dannflor]

You're not being annoying

You're right I don't know why I'm trying to defend this when I've moved on from it

I'll reset a bit and talk about those

[Dannflor]

Catching up now

[Dannflor]

Hey dannflor I want you to post your thoughts on the identity of the scum team

I’m not gonna do that while my grasp of the game is so gelatinous

[Dannflor]

I’m not done catching up but I have limited time so I will use it to respond to things that were directly pointed at me

I have historically never known how to read Firebringer and generally have been bad at attempting

The only thing that leapt out to me from him was his reaction to Datisi, where he reflexively prodded datisi when he was prodded

I thought that interaction was mildly townie from both slots

[Dannflor]

I’ll try to stay caught up but activity will be low until Monday

Also, sorry GL for being a little bratty last I was in thread. I think my fragile ego took a bit of a bruising from everyone calling my reaction to Frogster level 0, because jumping on that sort of thing and sussing out reactions is generally how I start every game

I thought you might’ve recognized that from me jumping on Kuti at the beginning of Turing Test

But I’m not gonna hash that out anymore because I’ve largely moved past it

[Dannflor]

I think my reads of Marci and Gamma have flipped

[Dannflor]

Didn’t vote CMM because I low key want to see some people explain they’re voting there

This feels a little inconsistent with joining the wagon on Eiralox and not explaining for the purposes of pressure?

I feel like you can work out why people might be voting there?

If I recall a few people joined the Eiralox wagon without much explanation after fireisred, why is this different?

[Dannflor]

Oh I like Nero for town but that seems pretty consensus

[Dannflor]

I’m town

[Dannflor]

Checking in, I’ll be able to catch up tonight but it might be best if day ends before then

[Dannflor]

Token game related content:

I don’t really like that xofelf didn’t place their vote somewhere especially after their big vibes list, it slightly gives the impression of caring more about having reads than curiosity or wanting to put their vibes to the test

[Dannflor]

hi im still alive

[Dannflor]

mmm not today

[Dannflor]

I think Shea's entrance is towny but it's also the easiest type of post to make replacing a scum slot in night phase

like that's the exact type of post I've made multiple times as scum who wants to impress

I think my read is overall net positive because of the way Shea just sorta dumped his thoughts and then tried to reset and get into live vibing mode. I think scum in that situation is more likely to cling to their catchup wall post and stick to a direction from there if that makes any sense. Shea is a little more all over the place

[Dannflor]

Frogsterking simply said I was scummy for even asking.

tbf scum aren't usually so bold in this regard

[Dannflor]

vig baltar

[Dannflor]

gamma can you elaborate on your HEM read? that feels unpopular

[Dannflor]

dannflor felt townier in the moment when i first started reading the thread, but i thought the person they subbed in for was really scummy.

obscure, what about my 8 post predecessor was really scummy?

[Dannflor]

@thestatusquo I am a new player. I'm not asking to be seen as townie for it as I do have experience with social deduction games but I would prefer if you respect the fact that I am new regardless because... what you're saying is coming across as quite offensive when I'm only trying to figure things out. Maybe I seem dumb but subbing into a game for the first time in so many pages as my first game ever isn't exactly easy.

More thoughts tomorrow.

mmmmm over under on the sincerity here?

[Dannflor]

VOTE: gamma

[Dannflor]

Gamma why is HEM scum

[Dannflor]

vig baltar

Dann is this a vig soft

if you're going to soft vig be explicit so real vig knows to shoot you

thanks

no not at all that was just me seeing that post and being like huh i wonder what that means for ausuka's alignment

[Dannflor]

dannflor can you tell me what you think about the suspicions against you from day 1?

it is annoying to be treated with sarcasm and suspicion with every post i make and it has made me not really want to try that much

it is hard for me to root out what suspicions on me are genuine and what is not, everyone seems pretty tunneled

I had thought GL didn't seem genuine in the way he was interacting with me but I think it's pretty clear now that I'm being saved for a mis-elimination and I would think that generally scum might try to interact with my slot in a more curious way or might even town read me

[Dannflor]

@Dann if it'd help to offer a specific launching point, I wanna know if you have a gut take response to 1565

but if you wanna take your time and give a read on Firebringer considering more context, that's fine too

Dann diid you ever address this

I was being coy but I'll just assert now that 1565 strikes me as a fairly scummy post from FB

I thought I did but maybe I dreamed it

Fire struck me as slightly towny based off his interactions with Datisi, albeit I'm historically terrible at reading him

I don't find the post your pointing at to be scummy, what is your logic there

[Dannflor]

i decided probably town

[Dannflor]

maybe I should be more suspicious of Shea for town reading me

I'm probably the defacto elimination for today that's probably a good play

[Dannflor]

you’re very wrong fire

I’m sorry I don’t have the motivation to prove it right now

[Dannflor]

I don’t have any scum reads I feel good about I’m so frustrated

[Dannflor]

Fire can you go into your read on HEM

[Dannflor]

I think you’re right that normally I would see this as a challenge and be tryharding my ass off

I love replacing into “doomed” slots, it’s absolutely the most fun thing to do in this game

But I take that mindset regardless of alignment and right now I’m not in the right mindset so you trying to psychanalyze me is just going to be off base no matter what

I am just not in a good mindset right now

I will try to snap out of it and summon the motivation because I feel really bad that this is my level of play right now but I have 0 confidence in my ability to show my towniness in general right now for a number of reasons and I’m hoping if I just keep posting to post that eventually I’ll shake that off

Anyway this is probably not a productive line of discussion

[Dannflor]

I don’t have any scum reads I feel good about I’m so frustrated

ok, me neither. what about townreads?

Off the top of my head, ausuka, you, and the person with the wolf avatar(?) sorry I’m phoneposting and too sleepy to check right now

I’ve come around to town reading GL too

I thought I was town reading Frogster but I’m getting the feeling I’m town reading their playstyle and I’m sure they don’t have trouble relocating their particular brand of uh posting. Idk I’ve never seen them play before you can give me the over under on that

I’ve also cooled off on my datisi town read but maybe you can help reinforce that again for me

Oh I think Nero Cain is town too, I think he goes up there with you and ausuka

[Dannflor]

Off the top of my head DV was the widely town read slot that I got the most “making a push to make a push - attempted deepwolf” vibes from so that is a read I’ll commit to re-examining in the morning

[Dannflor]

Fire can you go into your read on HEM

yea i just buy what he's saying mostly

when i played with scum HEM before his fake aggression came off as super fake to me. and he was playing a very positional game, always trying to push people, getting in 1v1s, creating presence, being a leader

here it feels like he is solving on his own terms and not being performative and it just feels a lot closer to what i remember from his town game. when he is reaching out to people it's to try to better his own solves and work together with his townreads to sort others, not to push an agenda

i don't agree with all of his takes but they feel right. the reactions to things make sense. nothing really has felt off to me

it's possible he's making the choice to play this game in a different style and go for the deepwolf route and he's probably worth another look later but for now im ok with trusting

Okay thanks

It felt to me that HEM was just posting a lot and people were generally town reading them for being high presence and looking like they’re doing things, but that helps a little

[Dannflor]

Okay Frogster can be townbinned for now then

I’m not really afraid of Frogster winning the game on his lonesome for some reason

I need to sleep now but thank you for talking with me fire, I’ll try to be less depressing tomorrow

[Dannflor]

responses to HEM and Ausuka from pages ago

Spoiler:

i also dont know why you think it's the best choice to elim you here when you're not really in any unique danger.
just feels like hopeless scum more than frustrated town. you dig me?

I dig you. I think it was less about the unique danger and more feeling very not confident in myself. I've not really latched onto anything much this game and I hold myself to pretty high standards so I'm overall pretty unhappy with my play this game and was hoping I would just get killed in the night.

Dann I find it kind of weird that you felt like you were shading me a bit and now I'm your strongest townread?

(sorry, it's not personal or anything and you don't have to answer right now if you don't feel like it! But scum can get demotivated too and like... I can't just not suspect you)

I don't recall shading you. My town read on you is relatively recent though.

I'd like to drop the motivation angle now. I feel like I'm getting into too much "pity me" mode or self deprecating or something and I don't want people to feel like they have to push me with kid gloves because of it. I just got really relieving IRL news and am feeling a lot better about playing mafia so uh, I'll drop the ATE / motivation garbage. I'm gonna get into this game.

I'm catching up now

[Dannflor]

Gamma why do I feel like you're only half paying attention to this game when I read your posts

[Dannflor]

I don't recall shading you. My town read on you is relatively recent though.

The shading thing was like "not sure what to make of this Ausuka post" which felt like testing the waters but I concede that's debatable

Can you explain your trajectory on me then

Was that the "vig Baltar" post? I was genuinely just mulling that over. I think it's a bit too cheeky for scum but that's not enough to base a solid read on.

I don't have much of a trajectory on you (or many other people) to speak on other than I started reading your ISO more closely and decided you were town

Your two main pushes on D1 were Baltar and Datisi

Baltar obviously was scum. And on its own that is not clearing in a game of this size but when taken in conjunction with the fact that you campaigned to vig him and that your other primary push was Datisi, it feels like a very unusual bus to me.

I think when there were a number of other *easy* vig shots like ConMan or me or froggy or firebringer, campaigning for that directly is a weird route to take as scum because its very likely the vig will shoot one of the other LHF and then you can get your bus credit D2 or whatever.

I also think just in general your push on Datisi D1 was towny. Your progression on him wasn't static and it was obvious he was wavering up and down in your reads quite a bit, which gives me the impression Datisi wasn't just your a target you chose to push but someone you saw something scummy in, and I find the *strength* of your push to be overall towny when you could easily dial it back a bit and let the easier wagons on me or whoever else was inactive at the time gain votes. Datisi is a good player and he doesn't strike me as the easiest person to push just going off of this game's D1, so that sense is getting reinforced today with your latest wall (that I haven't read in full yet) because 1. I don't see what you gain from this push as scum as it seems to be an uphill battle 2. your trajectory makes me think this is genuine and doesn't align with what I'd expect from scum deciding to powerwolf

[Dannflor]

???
Can you like, provide a specific example?

I guess I don't really have one, it's just like a vibe I'm getting. It seems like your reads are coming a lot from places of "I just got bad vibes from x person" or "something feels off about y behavior but I dunno what". Not exactly like that but you get my point?

I feel like seeing you play before I've seen you latch onto more specific things than that? Does that seem inaccurate? or am I just imagining a different Gamma here

[Dannflor]

I'm reading this thread like its a doctor who timeline and I really need to stop its giving me a headache

[Dannflor]

Spoiler: deasvail

my impressions of DV have soured. I had originally skimmed his spat with GL and just thought ooh towny posts but revisiting them I feel that they drift a little too performative

I don't feel satsified, but there's nothing more I want to explore right now. I'll need to sit on the read and see if I still the same way after that.

Happy to engage on anything that you/anyone else needs from me though

there's just moments like these that make me feel like DV is trying to put on the air of having shifting reads and thoughts without actually having a towny trajectory. Like he's a little too conscious about needing the "correct" amount of time and space to change his read on GL when I feel like the more towny response would've just been to not care about it and be like oh okay I'm feeling better about you now GL.

I mean maybe DV really just needs time to "sit with his read"

I will be able to catch up properly within the next 24 hours but my initial feels are that Dann is town. Do I have reason for it? Not really, but maybe I will later.

Conman I could go either way on and I’ll need to do a bit more of a read.

I’m stiiill comfortable with the vote on GL and a lot of his posts make me twitch a bit but I’m not going to be passionately advocating for that until I’ve had a chance to really think about it because obviously confirmation bias can be a thing

VP I also had the thought of a lot of GL’s posts being busy work, but I don’t think it’ll take off Day 1 (

also I probably need more time on that read

)

Leaning town on GL too because it felt like he was trying to stir up suspicion on GL by piggy-backing on my (likely incorrect) read.

Twice more throughout the day DV reiterates that he needs more time with the read, and then he opens today by saying he's town leaning GL because scum agreed with him. It just feels like DV was looking for a reason to back out of that read and finally found one if that makes sense? It fits the overall profile of scum who has chosen a high-profile player to hard push in order to look towny a lot more than say Ausuka's push on Datisi. The trajectory just seems faked?

idk

@DV

I'd like to hear from you more on why Baltar made you swing your read in the opposite direction. Because it feels like none of your actual concerns with GL was addressed, you just kept claiming you might be wrong.

[Dannflor]

For me the deciding factor is multiple instances where Gamma has posted in such a way that is displaying outrage/disbelief in response to a certain/person event that is actually benign to the point where I struggle to believe that she can feel so passionate about it.

798

2111 through 2114

And more recently the ??? at marci

like ausuka says, these types of emotional reactions are not really alignment indicative for Gamma

I think the self vote is probably along those lines too

that said the jump from OMGUSing Marci to self voting to voting conmanmick to back to voting marci today feels... a little more scattered than I would expect scum (even scum exhibiting real emotional reactions) to behave? that might be a stretch though

[Dannflor]

I'm unsure why dannflor is basically parroting my points re gamma but does not seem to give any indication that he knows I'm making them.

I'm sorry I've read like 10% of the game since I last posted and pretty much haven't read your push on him much at all

I'm not even really pushing gamma here I don't know where I stand on her

[Dannflor]

shea forgive me if you've already stated this recently but who are your other primary not-gamma suspects?

[Dannflor]

I like scamper theorizing tsq and hem are scum together

I don't think I agree but I like it for him

[Dannflor]

thats weird temporally because it felt like you started making these arguments directly after I made them but I guess I'll just file that away under weirdness for now.

I'm sort of reading the game via iso and random pages that interest me right now so my temporal handle on the game is all fucked up right now

[Dannflor]

oh I did not realize you self voted

ok I'll actually read in proper order now

[Dannflor]

Dann, if I were town here, would you expect me to still be scumreading GL? Do you still scumread GL?

I don't *town read* GL

Can you elaborate more on what parts of Baltar's play makes you think GL is town?

[Dannflor]

couldn't marci just make up a read on you datisi

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Marci

[Dannflor]

DV, what's your read on Marci? is the preference of me over her a greater of two evils sort of thing or do you town read marci?

[Dannflor]

I feel like people should just start voting and we can see what happens

[Dannflor]

Interested to know your read on DV!

[Dannflor]

And how that might or might not change as you catch up

[Dannflor]

VOTE: S_S

[Dannflor]

Shea really feels like an example of everyone getting distracted by the bright, shiny, loud townie who isn’t afraid of saying stuff that can very obviously come off as off-putting or offensive or outrageous instead of focusing on the scum sitting on the sidelines

I think it was NSG that once said that the biggest mistake towns mistake is focusing on the townies who do outrageous things rather than focusing on the silently scummy people

Mind you, I don’t really think most of what shea has said is all that outrageous but he’s definitely not out here trying to make friends. And I really think mafia in his position would be trying to make more friends or at least attract a little less attention.

Here is where I’m at

I would have expected S_S to attempt more analysis of some part of the game by now. I don’t have a good record of reading him but he’s good at sound and often useful logical reads but my general vibe of him so far has been a pale imitation of what S_S should sound like. Good wagon.

I don’t know about Marci. I think the fact her wagon didn’t really gain any steam despite the charismatic Datisi pushing it is a little odd but I also don’t really have a reason to scum read her.

I think DV might be town

I think obscure is scum and another good wagon. Something about their reaction to someone insinuating their newbieness could be played up as an act felt really wrong to me. It feels to me like a townie would be more understanding of that suspicion and either laugh it off or at least engage with that suspicion more generously. The highly defensive reaction makes me believe in obscure’s newbieness, but it also makes me think that maybe he is scum who reacted to such suspicion so strongly because it would be catching him “for the wrong reasons”

#2594 is the post I’m thinking of in particular

I have generally liked GL’s read trajectories (not necessarily the reads themselves) but the way he is reevaluating and evolving his reads feels very in line with what I saw from him in our last game. I will not dig up examples because I’m phoneposting add that sound like hell

Gamma no idea but I feel like I should have an idea

[Dannflor]

I want to think Frogster is town because he comes to his reads in such odd ways but idk if that’s just personality or not

I could meta him soon or someone more familiar with him could just tell me what he is

[Dannflor]

Datisi randomly having the theory that fire and I are buddies is +town

Random connections like that are always easier to make as town than scum, although definitely good scum can fake them

But in this case I feel I know exactly why Datisi had that thought

Datisi can you confirm what lead to that thought

[Dannflor]

Oh I guess maybe I don’t have to try to sort Datisi but I want to know if I’m right on this anyway

[Dannflor]

Thoughts on obscure?

[Dannflor]

It’s possible I’m waxing nostalgic about a town S_S that never existed

[Dannflor]

eh idk there were a couple posts that felt a little too much like S_S trying to do a cosplay of himself but I’m not really getting that vibe looking back over

[Dannflor]

VOTE: obscure

I think this is the only vote I feel a little bit good about right now

[Dannflor]

I still don’t scum read FB I suppose I should take that into account

GL tried to engage me on a post of FB’s and I just don’t find that analysis engaging or convincing at all. I’ll explain more when I’m at a computer and less lazy but I think it’s an example of trying to guess at what scum seem like they would do rather than looking at what scum tend to actually do and say.

[Dannflor]

Town

Ausuka
scamper
Datisi
humaneatingmonkey
fireisredsir
Shea
Nero Cain

If there is scum in that category then I will take Fireisredsir for 500

Lean town I guess???

GuiltyLion
Frogster
Ydrasse
DV

Any of those could be wrong

Ahhhhhhhhhh

marcistar
xofelf
Something_Smart Firebringer*
Gamma Emerald

Idk if i’ll ever be able to have reads here but I will try. Probably the most important slots to accurately sort

I feel not like shit voting here

Obscure

[Dannflor]

I think I partially have úrdase as like maybe town because everyone else said she was town and then also because I thought she hasn’t really tried to look town

And my most memorable memory of her is team mafia where I thought she tried really hard to be sweet and bubbly and towny as scum

[Dannflor]

Odds are my ahhhhhh category has all town and my lean town category contains multiple scum but that sounds like it’ll take brain power to work out

Goodnight

[Dannflor]

I think people need to stop focusing on shea

[Dannflor]

Marci what do you want to talk about

[Dannflor]

dann, can you explain your earlier q at me about my you/fire take

Oh I was thinking that maybe you thought I should be more suspicious of him because I was so suspicious of him in Turing test

But it seems I was wrong

[Dannflor]

...yes and the ss wagon has more momentum rn

it feels like again you're just making statements about things that aren't actually based in reality and then not taking any interest in backing them up and it's weird bc that's not really the kind of player you seemed to be when you first got here so im not sure where it's coming from

Tbf fire you kinda missed this with me too

The objective reality of the game doesn’t match up with the subjective experience of having multiple people call you scum and or dismiss what you have to say with sarcastic remarks about you being scum

Even if there isn’t a heavy push or a lot of actual votes

That feels psychologically very suffocating even if from an objective standpoint you’re fine. And Shea strikes me as an emotional player who is going to react quite strongly to that. I don’t think he’s trying to intentionally misrepresent the game state here

[Dannflor]

I don't think i like the ss wagon and i don't think I'll be voting there for the reason i just mentioned.

How about Obscure

[Dannflor]

Dannflorr why do you think I'm mafia?

I feel like it'll be easier for me to engage if I can in the moment instead of always feeling like I need to backread.

Obscure I think it would help if you tried to comment on things currently happening and maybe offering some opinions on the current wagons

You keep popping in to ask people to engage you and it’s hard to know what to engage you on because most of your posts are just reactions to things that have long since been discussed

I think you’re mafia because 1. I don’t think you are actually interested in discerning peoples alignments and figuring out who is scum. Your posts feel like the main motivation behind them is to look down.

And 2. Slightly smaller point I feel like you would’ve been more accepting and curious about Shea’s suspicion of you playing up your newbie card rather than offended as town

[Dannflor]

Everybody’s like potentially interested in obscure wagon

Just vote there and make him do things

Shea wagon is bad

S_S wagon probably won’t make him behave any differently and I don’t really see a compelling argument for why he’s scum anymore

Ydrasse may be an annoying slot to resolve but she is self resolving

I like this wagon please help me

Scum are most often found in the dead center of everyone’s reads lost and obscure feels dead null precisely because they have played to evade attention and look milque toast townie

Stop getting distracted by the outrageous townies

[Dannflor]

dann have you considered that scum can also be outrageous and noisy

Yes of course

In this instance though I feel I have other reasons to town read Shea

While I feel like this is the main reason people are scum reading Shea

[Dannflor]

I could be wrong. I’ll articulate myself better without just repeating the same things over and over again when I get to a computer tonight.

But I’m really just not in love with the two current wagons and there’s an unusual amount of resistance to changing the game state it feels like

I would like to vote somewhere I feel good about and not have it be a vanity vote

[Dannflor]

there’s an unusual amount of resistance to changing the game state it feels like

I don't know if I really agree with this. Its been roughly the same people posting while the bottom half aren't doing anything.

Something_Smart (4): GuiltyLion, Frogsterking, scamper, Ydrasse
Thestatusquo (3): Gamma Emerald, Nero Cain, fireisredsir
obscure (3): Dannflor, Thestatusquo, Datisi
------------------------------------------------------
Datisi (2): humaneatingmonkey, Ausuka
DeasVail (1): obscure
Frogsterking (1): DeasVail

Not voting (3): Something_Smart, marcistar, xofelf

I think the problem is actually the seven votes below the dotted line

[Dannflor]

Like they aren’t actually pushing anything

They aren’t trying to change the game state because they are just cavity votes

[Dannflor]

Tmi ing scum looks different nero

[Dannflor]

Less blatant mainly

Less actively trying to stop an elimination and more giving a read while letting the wagon go through

It makes more sense to think we’re buddies here

I’m just confident on a read and I would like him to not get killed, I also think all the current discourse around his slot isn’t very productive or moving the game forward

[Dannflor]

Also Team Mafia is my main experience with town Shea and I feel like my experience of him there lines up with what I’m seeing this game

[Dannflor]

Granted I do not know how he plays scum

[Dannflor]

VOTE: S_S

[Dannflor]

VOTE: obscure

[Dannflor]

S_S wagon probably won’t make him behave any differently and I don’t really see a compelling argument for why he’s scum anymore

how did you get from the readslist before to this to voting s_s again

I have changed my mind a couple times and am still oscillating.

It's not worth talking about because I have nothing valuable to say about S_S yet. I guess I'm not opposed to his wagon. I just really think I'm right on obscure and want to feed my ego.

[Dannflor]

ah yes nero scum famously don't care about the consistency of their posts and trajectories

you're so conf biased

[Dannflor]

look there's nothing clearing about the interactions between baltar and skitter/obscure (which is another ???? take from nero) because there really aren't any

obscure does not mention Baltar at all until today when he does some retrospective analysis of Baltar's flip which ends in shade on datisi, guilt lion, and ausuka ???

doesn't mention Baltar at all in his analysis of the first 25 pages despite Baltar definitely being present and obscure giving plenty of thoughts on other slots

Baltar's only real interaction with the slot is to give a milque toast town read?

if anything that's a scum connection

[Dannflor]

it's also possible I'm tunneled on a pet scum read so if people are actually town reading obscure for other reasons I'd love to hear why

[Dannflor]

is it inherently bad faith to push you while you aren't active?

[Dannflor]

I'm not sure how you would expect town me to behave if I genuinely scum read you here then. Wait for you to get more involved in the game?

Can you talk to me about the current main wagons of SS/Shea? Are you inclined to join either of them?

[Dannflor]

not necessarily townreading.. it just to me comes off as building a case on someone who would be very easy to execute rather than going for actual mafia. like, i don't think there's been a lot of meat behind it beyond latching onto status's idea of me faking being new.. i don't think i've done anything scummy either aside from not be as engaged with the thread as other people.. but, that's due to availability, and some of it being overwhelmed by volume.

your reaction there triggered me to look more closely at you but my main problem is that you've taken 0 hard stances or significant pushes

from my standpoint, you seem content to constantly be pointing at things and giving some analysis but not really acting on any of it with significant fervor. now, this *could* very well be for a combination of factors, your newness to the format, or your inability to keep up with the game

but I cannot shake the feeling that even when you are engaging with stuff, it's more superficial than not.

honestly, I'd rather see you focus sorting out your scum reads and making a concerted push somewhere than defending yourself here. or talking more about why you're for or against the current main wagons. I think it would be more productive for everyone

and I mean if I'm the one you scum read, why aren't you voting me?

[Dannflor]

who is S_S in for? i'll ISO them first.

firebringer

[Dannflor]

VOTE: fireisredsir

[Dannflor]

ok maybe this is silly but i actually kinda like SS intervening there

UNVOTE:

intervening in two presumably townies shit fighting is like "how to get town cred 101"

this is a weak reason to jump off and i feel like you absolutely know how weak it is "maybe this is silly"

so why even say it at all

[Dannflor]

is this the time to reveal I've been bad and looking at preflip associatives between fire and obscure all morning

[Dannflor]

ok maybe this is silly but i actually kinda like SS intervening there

UNVOTE:

intervening in two presumably townies shit fighting is like "how to get town cred 101"

this is a weak reason to jump off and i feel like you absolutely know how weak it is "maybe this is silly"

so why even say it at all

bc until then id seen nothing that i thought was AI from SS so far and his latest posting feels like he actually cares about town winning the game

ik it's fakeable but i believe it anyway. im aware that this is the response people would give to me thinking that but i don't care, i believe it anyway

I don't believe you.

I think the number one strategy for a slot that is in the position S_S is in is to play it cool and act like they don't really care about the pressure while slowly gaining town cred. Especially for a player like S_S. Honestly, that's probably the way to go regardless of alignment.

I don't really know what it is but the way you phrased that post feels so very faked genuineness. I don't believe that you as town would make that judgement so easily. I think you could think its genuine but I don't think you'd phrase that post like that as town.

I think fire is scum posting and the only reason I have is gut and vibes. But I've had this feeling before and that was an awkward pivot.

Especially the like 30 second wait between unvoting and then voting me. it's so, like. perfect. It's like here let me replicate a towny thought process with a clear trajectory.

[Dannflor]

is this the time to reveal I've been bad and looking at preflip associatives between fire and obscure all morning

why move off obscure to vote fireisred then, if you still see obscure as scum?

I'm making a statement

[Dannflor]

okay

I think obscure is town

[Dannflor]

VOTE: HEM

[Dannflor]

humaneatingmonkey (6): scamper, guiltylion, fireisredsir, datisi, ydrasse, Dannflor
Something_Smart (1): Frogsterking
obscure (1): Thestatusquo
Thestatusquo (1): Gamma Emerald
DeasVail (1): obscure
marcistar (1): DeasVail
Dannflor (1): Nero Cain
Datisi (1): Enchant
Not voting (4): Something_Smart, marcistar, humaneatingmonkey, ausuka
Day 1 will end in 6 days, 6 hours, 31 minutes

[Dannflor]

still working on deas but,

okay

I think obscure is town

why change this easily?

I think you've stayed remarkably consistent and natural sounding with a fair amount of pressure on you, and in a real time interaction setting to boot

I think your trajectory on me makes sense

there's a lot of minor stuff in your tone

honestly half the reason I was so aggro about pushing you was because I wanted to get some of this out of you and to see whether you'd crack or suddenly change trajectories or otherwise change your behavior. I don't really see that at all

[Dannflor]

something about fire's natural tone is just so scummy to me I think so I think I'm gonna have to figure out how to read him some other way

[Dannflor]

I think fire is a little bit performative even in their town play which can come off as scummy

which is definitely something im guilty of as well

[Dannflor]

btw, while i'm sorting things, is there anything mechanical i should know that's good or bad for anyone?

what prompted this question?

[Dannflor]

kinda back to wanting to wagon marci or gamma but the only reason i have is them just not being present

[Dannflor]

kinda back to wanting to wagon marci or gamma but the only reason i have is them just not being present

im here wtf

i literally told u im interested in talking w u but u never started a convo

Marci what do you want to talk about

[Dannflor]

VOTE: gamma

I'm fine with doing this actually

[Dannflor]

I just find

Ate

inherently scummy. I hated when Dann did it, I hated when Gamma did it, I hated when TSQ. I am so full of hate.

I apologize for this nero

I didn't like that I did that

[Dannflor]

kinda back to wanting to wagon marci or gamma but the only reason i have is them just not being present

im here wtf

i literally told u im interested in talking w u but u never started a convo

Marci what do you want to talk about

anything bb u start the convo

what are your feelings towards gamma?

[Dannflor]

mm then again ig scum dann would probably be making a specific effort to have a trajectory of paranoia on me

and it's maybe kinda weird how quickly he backed off when i don't think i really did anything that would defuse the paranoia he had

I don't think you actually did anything that scummy in the first place

I think one post triggered it and it was further exacerbated by you moving your vote to me

after the initial emotional reaction wore off I still definitely have some paranoia about you but I don't feel willing to thunderdome

[Dannflor]

I agree with everything fire just said

[Dannflor]

I think there's probably more scum off-wagon if HEM is town lol

[Dannflor]

idk does anyone really white knight HEM besides Frogster?

I see S_S calling HEM slightly town and insinuating HEM vs. scamper is TvT but not much beyond those things

[Dannflor]

I definitely thought multiball was just explicitly not-normal

I've had a busy couple days at work. Catching up now

[Dannflor]

i think if hem is scum and claiming to try to out the vig then he claims the vp shot

rn there isn't anything to be cc'd bc he said he didn't shoot vp

he could still be scum ig but i think he just will die later if he never confirms himself?

UNVOTE:

This is a strange assumption. He buys more time for himself this way? I don't know that outing the vig is explicitly more valuable than living an undetermined extra amount of days

[Dannflor]

What do mafia really gain from living slightly longer if it doesn't help them endgame

I mean theoretically hem could just be lying but eh i don't think this is a good idea

He could be a mafia PR?

[Dannflor]

I'm not arguing he is or that we should kill him today - we probably shouldn't - I'm just saying it doesn't make sense as a reason to clear him

[Dannflor]

fire I feel like you have felt the need to overexplain your vote switches this game

do you feel like you tend to do that or am I just seeing things

[Dannflor]

fire I feel like you have felt the need to overexplain your vote switches this game

do you feel like you tend to do that or am I just seeing things

i think i always do that

do you think there's, like, an anxiety to be town read behind that?

[Dannflor]

if we're wagoning obscure then HEM needs another target

[Dannflor]

fire I feel like you have felt the need to overexplain your vote switches this game

do you feel like you tend to do that or am I just seeing things

i think i always do that

do you think there's, like, an anxiety to be town read behind that?

maybe yea, i am v self conscious and v anxious all the time lol

i think maybe also like i want to explain myself fully bc i don't want to be misinterpreted? or something like that

I relate to that - ironically I think its also exactly the reason I keep scum reading you

I think if I take myself away from that aspect you've been pretty towny this game

[Dannflor]

okay then who do you want me to kill

who would you want to kill if you had the choice?

[Dannflor]

I feel like my vote for vig target would be marci

pedit: and i sorta have a theory that marci's trajectory on gamma was an attempt to pocket her

and I sort of just get the feeling her interactions with everyone are to pocket them instead of actually sorting them

pedit pedit: i mean i dont rlly think marci/gamma are s/s so maybe either is fine

[Dannflor]

I feel like a wagon on marci gives us the least info so ergo she's the best vig target but shrug

[Dannflor]

pedit: and i sorta have a theory that marci's trajectory on gamma was an attempt to pocket her

why would she decide that the best person to start pocketing is the one she tunneled all of the previous day?

I don't think she started with Gamma. I just think the way she interacts with people is more geared towards getting people to like her than to solve people's alignments? Like her conversation with me, it felt like she wanted me to feel like "oh marci is reaching out to me she must be town," and not because she specifically wanted something from me

Maybe Gamma wasn't someone she intentionally tried to pocket

[Dannflor]

idk obscure i thought had townie sounding posts when I finally got them to show up but they were still just mostly focused on self-defense and Deasvail

there's not really direct scum-motivation to be tunneling DV but maybe it's easier for obscure to just focus on that push rather than commenting on any of the present wagons at the time

[Dannflor]

VOTE: obscure

[Dannflor]

yikes

[Dannflor]

my head is hurting

[Dannflor]

I, too, think GL is town

[Dannflor]

I think GL is replicating a kind of wobble in their trajectories and reads on people that is difficult to authentically replicate on scum

If you track his read on me for instance he has gone back and forth a lot, but it hasn't been adjusted in the fake scum way of "oh look I'm changing my reads I'm town", but does genuinely seem to be in response to new information every time, and it's done so smoothly I have to think its natural

idk that is the first thing that pops out to me about GL

[Dannflor]

I guess I would join a DV wagon

or S_S or I guess Gamma

making a decision sounds hard

[Dannflor]

VOTE: S_S

[Dannflor]

VOTE: obscure

[Dannflor]

is the game still the same game if over time all the players have been replaced by different players?

[Dannflor]

I’m in a similar boat as GL

I think part of it has to do with the fact that obscure was my original tunnel and I want to be justified though so that’s not a great reason

I also promise content ™ when I get off work

[Dannflor]

Good vibes

[Dannflor]

put a cat in there idc

[Dannflor]

why do you think it's because you're busy?

[Dannflor]

why do you think it's because you're busy?

because whenever i'm able to participate people find me as town, then i come back and i'm being voted.

there has not been a significant wagon on you until now

previously I was basically the only person campaigning for your wagon

I am unsure why that is the conclusion you assume instead of, say, asking people why they are voting you

[Dannflor]

i sort of think at this point we should just kill someone who says "feel free to just off me"

[Dannflor]

i think we have to kill you rather than risk outing another PR

[Dannflor]

does it not?

I'm trying to avoid a situation where we run up DV or S_S or something and they are yet another confirmable PR

I'm generally not good at understanding best mechanical decisions though so I'll defer to people who actually know what they are talking about

[Dannflor]

it is very hard to be motivated to give a fuck right now

[Dannflor]

oh yes that makes sense, don't mind me

[Dannflor]

I guess if someone has something they feel passionate about we should go there

I will take one person's passionate read over an apathy wagon

I'll try to effort tonight and see if I can get that myself

[Dannflor]

oh yeah that one famous time datisi shot an IC i know about that who doesn't know about that

[Dannflor]

I'm reconsidering my read on Shea

[Dannflor]

asking people to use logic to explain emotion is... an interesting way of questioning people

[Dannflor]

oh boy you're gonna hate reading this game

[Dannflor]

UNVOTE:

basically everyone was pushing S_S and Shea as competing wagons and I thought obscure's pop-ins were very surface level towny but kinda designed to be and i thought a lot of people were writing him off as town when he was actually scum

I don't really feel great about my initial reasoning anymore but there is a part of my ego that wanted to be right while everyone was pushing something else

[Dannflor]

VOTE: Tweet

[Dannflor]

#5245 feels like the type of question that comes out of trying to think of questions to ask, not a real thought, if that makes sense

like i dont think you can really read mine and ausuka's posts and think "bruteforcing a decision"

plus it is not that hard to read a little bit more to really confirm that

[Dannflor]

can I just stab everyone the doesn't link to the post?

viewtopic.php?p=13504415#p13504415

[Dannflor]

I meant that it came across like Frog was saying you were rushing, but from you and whoevers it looked more like the game was stagnating. It was more or less an open ended question as to who was right

are you familiar with Frogster?

[Dannflor]

i always use the url tags

[Dannflor]

I meant that it came across like Frog was saying you were rushing, but from you and whoevers it looked more like the game was stagnating. It was more or less an open ended question as to who was right

I'm still sort of wondering what you hoped to gain from this question

I feel like this is a question where you'd get more value out of simply skimming a little further and forming your own opinion?

[Dannflor]

I love Frogster's posting now

[Dannflor]

My rep in was abominable is my guess I have no soul present really

I think it's hard to have a good rep-in considering the size and state of this game

I would hope you can keep posting thoughts about the game though

[Dannflor]

VOTE: obscure

[Dannflor]

Skimmed obscure's ISO. Thinking town there since his posting is extremely involved and detailed for someone completely new to mafia. Unless it's an alt and the "I'm new" thing is a schtick to hide the alt, seems unlikely someone gives that much spew as a first time scum.

That being said, GL and Ausuka seem to be his top town reads, and that's inherently bad. You have much to learn young padawan.

this is the only interaction in the game between the two slots