Mafia 88- Return to New Catania- Game Over!

[Yosarian2]

Voting No lynch doesn't seem all that controversial to me

FYI: No lynching on day 1 is generally considered a Very Bad Idea (tm), so voting no lynch is usually a good way to get a few people to vote for you.

And thats a good summary, if GC isn't scum, one of the ones voting for him probably is. Though most likely it would be the one who lead teh assault against him, since anyone the town is willing to listen to could prove to be bad for the Mafia if he rallys them behind that person. Basically Scum already have a reason to want him dead. :p

I don't really think that's valid. For one I don't really thing people were following him as much as reacting the same way on their own. Besides which, I don't think "voting X while some other people are following X" can really be considered an inherent scumtell.

[Yosarian2]

If the 'ploy' fails, then it's just one wasted post.

No; if you are pro-town, then your ploy fails if it just leads to pro-town people fighting with each other all day. Which, in my experence, is usually what happens.

[Hoopla]

If the 'ploy' fails, then it's just one wasted post.

No; if you are pro-town, then your ploy fails if it just leads to pro-town people fighting with each other all day. Which, in my experence, is usually what happens.

So, at this stage you believe it's very possible everyone involved in this debate is pro-town, under the premise mafia wouldn't bother getting involved?

[Yosarian2]

If the 'ploy' fails, then it's just one wasted post.

No; if you are pro-town, then your ploy fails if it just leads to pro-town people fighting with each other all day. Which, in my experence, is usually what happens.

So, at this stage you believe it's very possible everyone involved in this debate is pro-town, under the premise mafia wouldn't bother getting involved?

Eh, I don't think any ofit is indicitive of alignment. I've seen the pattern many times, and I don't think scum are any more or less likely to vote no-lynch, or to vote someone for voting no lynch, or to vote someone for voting someone for voting no-lynch. Any step of that, some town people will do it and think they're doing the right thing.

[Battle Mage]

If the 'ploy' fails, then it's just one wasted post.

No; if you are pro-town, then your ploy fails if it just leads to pro-town people fighting with each other all day. Which, in my experence, is usually what happens.

So, at this stage you believe it's very possible everyone involved in this debate is pro-town, under the premise mafia wouldn't bother getting involved?

Eh, I don't think any ofit is indicitive of alignment. I've seen the pattern many times, and I don't think scum are any more or less likely to vote no-lynch, or to vote someone for voting no lynch, or to vote someone for voting someone for voting no-lynch. Any step of that, some town people will do it and think they're doing the right thing.

I somewhat agree with you that this is largely WIFOM, but the way i see it is this:

Scum will naturally want to look as protown as possible. As such, scum are less likely to do something that is often seen as scummy, and will put them under scrutiny early on (such as vote No Lynch) and are more likely to do something seen as protown, that might stand in their favour later on (such as promoting good practices, like NOT No-lynching day 1). Town are less afraid to be controversial, because their win condition isnt to survive, but to out scumbags.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Large post but a few issues Ecto:

1. You claim that content has been ignored. Yet, you do not deign to state what this content is. If you choose to do so, it might give your comments some credibility, and heaven forbid, give me the chance to respond!

Umm...yeah, he did...

What his point is as I read it, is that Hoopla made a move that revealed no alignment information.
That point is correct.

Thanks, but i really hope this is not IT. 0.o
If his point was merely that Hoopla made a move that didnt reveal alignment information, then he begs the question of how ANY vote in the random stage reveals alignment information. Until somebody is dead, and we can possibly draw relationships between players, his vote was no less informative than any other. Granted, he didnt leave himself open to speculation about who he interacted with BY THE VOTE ITSELF, but by voting No-Lynch, he was bound to invoke a response, which itself would become the interaction that i believe George was seeking.

Now Ecto, i guess the ball is in your court, to explain how you think his vote for NL was less informative of his alignment than a vote for a player.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Just as I was about to berate you for not reading the game properly, to my chagrin I found that you had made your retracted fos a

conditional

statement. That would make it impossible for you to retract your fos before the vote was removed. What I saw was the bolded section.

This is why some people say 'reading is win'. I won't pretend to understand your stance on it. It isn't of any relevance anyway.

Now, as turnabout is fair play, you now get to go back and read GC's statements thoroughly for the answer to #1. You can even find the answer to #1 in my posts as I addressed that issue there. Both questions were already answered. If you can't find the answers, ask them again later after you've put in the effort.

Lol, nice try buddy. Sadly, that's just not how it works. You make a point, you back it up. If you dont back the point up to a good enough degree that it can be ASSESSED, then it is of no value.

As for #3, attacking people for false arguments is quite a bit different than defending their target. Trying to distract from the argument being made by presenting a different one? Go back and get the answer for #1, and see why your question #3 is based upon a false premise.

Lol, how can a question be based on a false premise? Especially one which was 80% humorous speculation.

Also- Please watch the attitude. You might be a good mafia player, but that doesnt mean you can boss people around and expect them to bite. Maybe if this was Kingmaker, and you were confirmed innocent. I dont think either of these is true here.

BM

[Battle Mage]

But as you just admitted yourself, the reason was not legitimate, because Hoopla did not make any discernible attempt to kill conversation about his move. He merely responded in the way any townie would when confronted with scummy play.

BM

I still need you to explan how George Carlin's play there was scummy, btw.

He cast a vote, which led to a bandwagon, on a healthy combination of inherently flawed reasoning, and utter bs. What is perhaps more unnerving is the fact that, i dont think he considered it to be a random vote-he seemed like he genuinely believed what he was saying...

BM

[Battle Mage]

vote: no lynch

obvscum

Don't like this. Although the random voting stage isn't particularly vital, it can often help jumpstart conversation, get reactions going, etc. This vote provides no information to the town that can be discussed later, such as voting patterns, etc. In addition, it provides very little discussion or reacting by itself, while votes on a player can help create reactions, and start conversation.

In fact, I find that depriving the town of information, even information this small, to be somewhat scummy. Although it's more definately not a solid case, it's a start, and I feel that this has more potential to get the conversation going than simply ignoring it and random voting. Therefore,

Vote: Hoopla

Unvote, Vote: GeorgeCarlin

Well done buddy. You just disproved your own argument. If voting No-Lynch didnt provoke discussion, YOU WOULDNT HAVE BEEN DISCUSSING IT. If voting no-lynch didnt illicit reactions, YOU WOULDNT HAVE VOTED FOR HOOPLA.

He left a trap, and you fell right into it.

BM

First off, he disproved nothing. The point was that vote couln't be used later for any reason, and that it seemed hoopla didn't want to start a discussion, as it would draw attention to him.

This is clearly incorrect. If he didnt want to start a discussion, why would he vote No-Lynch? Unless you really think he was expecting people to go along with it?? 0.o
If he didnt want to draw attention to himself, why would he vote No-Lynch? He did the most controversial thing, which, in my experience, means he is very unlikely to be scum. However, those attacking him are pinging my scumdar quite significantly.

Secondly, I always have issues trusting the guy who jumps on the first dude who tries to make a point about something. Also the fact people seemed to start voting Hoopla, which shows he might be able to convince people who to vote for. Seems like someone a Mafia would want to get rid of, under the assumption he himself isn't Mafia.

Lol, i dont really see your point here. So you're saying that, if he isnt scum, those people attacking GC are probably scum? Lol, seems a fair enough assumption-its the assumption i made about Hoopla and GC.

I would say vote for you, cause if you are Mafia I doubt Carlin is, at least not in the same factin you are, again assuming there are more then 1. Don't get me wrong though, if you are town it doesn't show if he is one way or another. I don't see him as suspicious, so even if you get lynched and flip town, I wouldn't encourage anyone to vote Carlin yet, not until he does something incriminating.

I'll give you some words of defense though.

Rofl. I think you're floundering mate. If you wanna vote me, stop tying yourself up in knots, and do it! But you're gonna need a better reason than "he's picking on GC".

BM

Voting No lynch doesn't seem all that controversial to me, as its easy to see why one wouldn't want to take the chance of lynching town. I'd assume he voted no Lynch and hoped people would pass right over his post and not pay it much mind. AFter all, he did vote, which makes it look like he's doing something.

Is this your first game on site? Over here, Voting No Lynch at any time where it is not an optimal play is something that people LOVE to jump on.

And thats a good summary, if GC isn't scum, one of the ones voting for him probably is. Though most likely it would be the one who lead teh assault against him, since anyone the town is willing to listen to could prove to be bad for the Mafia if he rallys them behind that person. Basically Scum already have a reason to want him dead. :p

That is on the assumption he is town, which isnt one id be looking at currently. It also makes the claim that scum are more likely to start a case rather than tag along to one, something which i also disagree with in general.

And my reason is more then he's picking on GC, my reason is GC would be a good target for scum to eliminate if he's town. So basically I'm deciding if he's more likely to be town, or if you are. I'm much more inclined to lynch you though, since that will at least show GC isn't aligned with you. Though sadly if you flip town we effectively learn nothing.

Joy. So you want to lynch me in order to 'prove' that GC isnt scum, excluding the obvious possibility of bussing, and acknowledge that if i am town, not only do we waste a day completely, but we have night to contend with, and you ignore the possibility that i am a power role. Joy.

Though between the two of you, I think I'll vote you. :p

unvote

vote

Battle mage

*sigh*

Why?

BM

[Battle Mage]

I disagree with the strawman argument that GC disproved his own case. He did not say that a no-lynch vote would

not

generate discussion, in fact, he said it

would

.

What his point is as I read it, is that Hoopla made a move that revealed no alignment information.
That point is correct.

He says a no lynch vote is useless if nobody reacts to it (which you also reference later in your post). This does disarm his argument, as he does respond, and so do several other players. A random vote is also useless if nobody reacts to it.

The bolded point you can use on any of the first page random votes. If you disagree, link me to a game where a random vote does reveal alignment information.

1: Hoopla - for using what apparently has become a rather common method of starting a game, and then voting for the player that began chasing after it,

when the ploy fails entirely if everyone ignores it

. Additional suspicion for creating the false statement that GC was contradicting himself.

If the 'ploy' fails, then it's just one wasted post. I've never seen a game where a no lynch vote has been ignored - please show me one. My retaliation further validated the purpose for my no lynch vote.

QFAT. If you're scum, i think i might actually cry.

BM

[Yosarian2]

As such, scum are less likely to do something that is often seen as scummy, and will put them under scrutiny early on (such as vote No Lynch) and are more likely to do something seen as protown, that might stand in their favour later on (such as promoting good practices, like NOT No-lynching day 1).

Ok...but, by the same token, town are also likely to want to "promote good practices". So I tend to consider it a null-tell, all around.

You are probably right that. if Hooper knew it would attract him negitive attention, it would probably be a small town tell (unless he also knew we would see it as one..lol). I still hate the reflexive vote he made on GC, though, especally since GC's reasons were logical, at least in a first-iteneration kind of way. It's not especally strong, but I don't expect strong arguments that early.

[curiouskarmadog]

just back into town...will read and comment tomorrow

[Ectomancer]

Also- Please watch the attitude. You might be a good mafia player, but that doesnt mean you can boss people around and expect them to bite. Maybe if this was Kingmaker, and you were confirmed innocent. I dont think either of these is true here.

BM

Hello Kettle? This is Pot. You are black. (to prod your failing memory, remember ordering someone to remove their vote?)

As for making a point, and then backing it up, I made the point, I backed it up, YOU just simply failed to read it, then had the balls to make this response, even after it was pointed out to you before this post, and both before and after mine, that I already

had

answered the question.

I'm going to disagree with the whole "someone who votes self or no lynch is probably town" based upon a meta. From what I've seen, this has become a common method for a game to be started, and as you know, anything that becomes recognized as a standard move for town becomes a standard move for scum as well.

I disagree with the strawman argument that GC disproved his own case. He did not say that a no-lynch vote would

not

generate discussion, in fact, he said it

would

.

What his point is as I read it, is that Hoopla made a move that revealed no alignment information.
That point is correct.

He says a no lynch vote is useless if nobody reacts to it (which you also reference later in your post). This does disarm his argument, as he does respond, and so do several other players. A random vote is also useless if nobody reacts to it.

The bolded point you can use on any of the first page random votes. If you disagree, link me to a game where a random vote does reveal alignment information.

1: Hoopla - for using what apparently has become a rather common method of starting a game, and then voting for the player that began chasing after it,

when the ploy fails entirely if everyone ignores it

. Additional suspicion for creating the false statement that GC was contradicting himself.

If the 'ploy' fails, then it's just one wasted post. I've never seen a game where a no lynch vote has been ignored - please show me one. My retaliation further validated the purpose for my no lynch vote.

QFAT. If you're scum, i think i might actually cry.

BM

Yeah, a bad defense and BM right there agreeing along. I guess you're a little too far down that road to turn back now BM?

He says a no lynch vote is useless if nobody reacts to it (which you also reference later in your post). This does disarm his argument, as he does respond, and so do several other players. A random vote is also useless if nobody reacts to it.

His response and others to the no lynch

still does not invalidate the statement that a no lynch is useless if nobody reacts to it.

Reactions to it are not addressed at all by that argument. Whether random votes are also useless does not invalidate his statement either. Straw Man here.

The bolded point you can use on any of the first page random votes. If you disagree, link me to a game where a random vote does reveal alignment information.

Again, does not invalidate his statement. If you want to say that your move is as valid as any other page 1 move, then say

that

. But you aren't. You are making a bad argument in order to simply make an argument and in doing so, trying to make GC look bad, and that

is

anti-town.

If the 'ploy' fails, then it's just one wasted post. I've never seen a game where a no lynch vote has been ignored - please show me one. My retaliation further validated the purpose for my no lynch vote.

Again, this isn't pertinent to GC's statement. It doesnt matter if you've never seen a no lynch ignored, or whether I can show you one. The same problem exists, is that it gives no information on your alignment.
Your retaliation doesnt validate a thing. All it proves is that you are willing to attack the

person

that questioned you, and not the

argument

that they are presenting. This is evident by the arguments you made then, and the arguments you are trying to apply now.
Why did you not give the reasons for your actions that you gave in this post? Why did you instead choose to pretend GC's points were wrong, rather than admitting the truth of them, and

then

explaining your points that are valid that would explain your actions despite GC's points?
Inventing debate by using strawmen to contradict statements that are true is very, very naughty.

[Sobeahero]

So, No lynches always get that kind of flack around here? Good to know. And yes, this is the first game on this site, the other games I've played never had the option of No Lynch, so seeing it now it doesn't really seem like a big deal to me. :p

vote: no lynch

obvscum

Don't like this. Although the random voting stage isn't particularly vital, it can often help jumpstart conversation, get reactions going, etc. This vote provides no information to the town that can be discussed later, such as voting patterns, etc. In addition, it provides very little discussion or reacting by itself, while votes on a player can help create reactions, and start conversation.

In fact, I find that depriving the town of information, even information this small, to be somewhat scummy. Although it's more definately not a solid case, it's a start, and I feel that this has more potential to get the conversation going than simply ignoring it and random voting. Therefore,

Vote: Hoopla

Unvote, Vote: GeorgeCarlin

Well done buddy. You just disproved your own argument. If voting No-Lynch didnt provoke discussion, YOU WOULDNT HAVE BEEN DISCUSSING IT. If voting no-lynch didnt illicit reactions, YOU WOULDNT HAVE VOTED FOR HOOPLA.

He left a trap, and you fell right into it.

BM

First off, he disproved nothing. The point was that vote couln't be used later for any reason, and that it seemed hoopla didn't want to start a discussion, as it would draw attention to him.

This is clearly incorrect. If he didnt want to start a discussion, why would he vote No-Lynch? Unless you really think he was expecting people to go along with it?? 0.o
If he didnt want to draw attention to himself, why would he vote No-Lynch? He did the most controversial thing, which, in my experience, means he is very unlikely to be scum. However, those attacking him are pinging my scumdar quite significantly.

Secondly, I always have issues trusting the guy who jumps on the first dude who tries to make a point about something. Also the fact people seemed to start voting Hoopla, which shows he might be able to convince people who to vote for. Seems like someone a Mafia would want to get rid of, under the assumption he himself isn't Mafia.

Lol, i dont really see your point here. So you're saying that, if he isnt scum, those people attacking GC are probably scum? Lol, seems a fair enough assumption-its the assumption i made about Hoopla and GC.

I would say vote for you, cause if you are Mafia I doubt Carlin is, at least not in the same factin you are, again assuming there are more then 1. Don't get me wrong though, if you are town it doesn't show if he is one way or another. I don't see him as suspicious, so even if you get lynched and flip town, I wouldn't encourage anyone to vote Carlin yet, not until he does something incriminating.

I'll give you some words of defense though.

Rofl. I think you're floundering mate. If you wanna vote me, stop tying yourself up in knots, and do it! But you're gonna need a better reason than "he's picking on GC".

BM

Voting No lynch doesn't seem all that controversial to me, as its easy to see why one wouldn't want to take the chance of lynching town. I'd assume he voted no Lynch and hoped people would pass right over his post and not pay it much mind. AFter all, he did vote, which makes it look like he's doing something.

Is this your first game on site? Over here, Voting No Lynch at any time where it is not an optimal play is something that people LOVE to jump on.

And thats a good summary, if GC isn't scum, one of the ones voting for him probably is. Though most likely it would be the one who lead teh assault against him, since anyone the town is willing to listen to could prove to be bad for the Mafia if he rallys them behind that person. Basically Scum already have a reason to want him dead. :p

That is on the assumption he is town, which isnt one id be looking at currently. It also makes the claim that scum are more likely to start a case rather than tag along to one, something which i also disagree with in general.

And my reason is more then he's picking on GC, my reason is GC would be a good target for scum to eliminate if he's town. So basically I'm deciding if he's more likely to be town, or if you are. I'm much more inclined to lynch you though, since that will at least show GC isn't aligned with you. Though sadly if you flip town we effectively learn nothing.

Joy. So you want to lynch me in order to 'prove' that GC isnt scum, excluding the obvious possibility of bussing, and acknowledge that if i am town, not only do we waste a day completely, but we have night to contend with, and you ignore the possibility that i am a power role. Joy.

Though between the two of you, I think I'll vote you. :p

unvote

vote

Battle mage

*sigh*

Why?

BM

I never ignored the possibility you are a power role. I'm just not ignoring the possibility that you are Mafia either. You voted GC. Ever though maybe HE might be a power role? That seems like a very weak defense. :p

And I only acknowledge that if you are town and lynched, we waste a lynch on a town and learn nothing. But guess what? Same thing happens if GC is town. If he's lynched town, we learn nothing. Unless you can give me a reason why him flipping town yields any additional information, you're voting at the same risks I am. :p

next, Scum aren't inherently going to lay dormant or be active, I just tend to notice in a few games Scum like to take out those with an opinion early on in the game.

And on the Case of GC, its hard to tell how many people voted Hoopla because of him. But he both had an opinion, and people started voting hoopla after him, so its entirely possible Mafia would want him dead.

Yes, everything so far is based on possibility and guesswork, but its not like anyone can do much better day one anyway.

And I pick you over GC for this simple reason, you've been rather redundant with yoru reasonings why me voting for you is silly.

-We get no info if you flip town? We get no info if GC flips town either. We are both taking the same risk if we are both town, so its a silly argument.

-Saying you disagree with the sentamant that Scum would start instead of follow? They can do both, so thats not much of a point. :p

- The whole 'I could be a power role' line? Same goes for GC.

In short, I vote for you for redundant and pointless defenses. :p

[Hoopla]

I'll be very interested to learn what George Carlin makes of all this when he checks in again.

[Battle Mage]

Also- Please watch the attitude. You might be a good mafia player, but that doesnt mean you can boss people around and expect them to bite. Maybe if this was Kingmaker, and you were confirmed innocent. I dont think either of these is true here.

BM

Hello Kettle? This is Pot. You are black. (to prod your failing memory, remember ordering someone to remove their vote?)

I made a request, which was not unreasonable, and involved me making a concession aswell. If Seraphim has an issue with my tone, he can raise it with me.

As for making a point, and then backing it up, I made the point, I backed it up, YOU just simply failed to read it, then had the balls to make this response, even after it was pointed out to you before this post, and both before and after mine, that I already

had

answered the question.

If you're referring to what Yos2 quoted, i've already responded to that.
I'll probably be back later today. Really dont have the inclination for this right now...

BM

[Ectomancer]

Good to see you again BM

[Battle Mage]

I never ignored the possibility you are a power role. I'm just not ignoring the possibility that you are Mafia either. You voted GC. Ever though maybe HE might be a power role? That seems like a very weak defense. :p

It's not a defence. I havent got anything to defend AGAINST. You put forward the scenario that i was lynched as town merely to gain information-neglecting to mention that i might not be Vanilla.
Notice, whilst i have voted GC, im not expecting him to be lynched just yet. Mafia on Day 1 is best played when the town jumps about alot, and keeps everyone on their toes.

And I only acknowledge that if you are town and lynched, we waste a lynch on a town and learn nothing. But guess what? Same thing happens if GC is town. If he's lynched town, we learn nothing. Unless you can give me a reason why him flipping town yields any additional information, you're voting at the same risks I am. :p

Him flipping town will give additional info, just like me flipping town will. You then look at who put pressure on them. If he comes up town, we would think "would scum have attacked or defended him?" and attack accordingly. Same with me pretty much.
Btw, your point isnt that a vote for me is the same as a vote for GC-you need to back up why you chose me INSTEAD OF him.

next, Scum aren't inherently going to lay dormant or be active, I just tend to notice in a few games Scum like to take out those with an opinion early on in the game.

seems a little unlikely here, given we have 2 month deadlines, and MS players are timid of lynching at the best of times.

And on the Case of GC, its hard to tell how many people voted Hoopla because of him. But he both had an opinion, and people started voting hoopla after him, so its entirely possible Mafia would want him dead.

Only is Hoopla is scum. Pretty fundamental that! Scum dont mind keeping influential townies around who arent a direct threat to them.

And I pick you over GC for this simple reason, you've been rather redundant with yoru reasonings why me voting for you is silly.

-We get no info if you flip town? We get no info if GC flips town either. We are both taking the same risk if we are both town, so its a silly argument.

-Saying you disagree with the sentamant that Scum would start instead of follow? They can do both, so thats not much of a point. :p

- The whole 'I could be a power role' line? Same goes for GC.

Lol, i sense a logical flaw here.

You voted for me, because WHEN YOU VOTED FOR ME, i didnt really defend myself. But why did you vote for me in the first place?

In short, I vote for you for redundant and pointless defenses. :p

1. There was nothing to defend until after you voted me, hence your reasoning is nonsensical.
2. You have given me nothing to defend against-as you yourself have acknowledged.

BM

[Battle Mage]

As such, scum are less likely to do something that is often seen as scummy, and will put them under scrutiny early on (such as vote No Lynch) and are more likely to do something seen as protown, that might stand in their favour later on (such as promoting good practices, like NOT No-lynching day 1).

Ok...but, by the same token, town are also likely to want to "promote good practices". So I tend to consider it a null-tell, all around.

This is true. But it doesnt make it a null tell.

People who will vote NL at the start of the game = Town

Hence, it is a towntell.

You are probably right that. if Hooper knew it would attract him negitive attention, it would probably be a small town tell (unless he also knew we would see it as one..lol). I still hate the reflexive vote he made on GC, though, especally since

GC's reasons were logical

, at least in a first-iteneration kind of way. It's not especally strong, but I don't expect strong arguments that early.

*facepalm*

BM

[Battle Mage]

His response and others to the no lynch

still does not invalidate the statement that a no lynch is useless if nobody reacts to it.

Reactions to it are not addressed at all by that argument. Whether random votes are also useless does not invalidate his statement either. Straw Man here.

Yes it does.

The bolded point you can use on any of the first page random votes. If you disagree, link me to a game where a random vote does reveal alignment information.

Again, does not invalidate his statement. If you want to say that your move is as valid as any other page 1 move, then say

that

. But you aren't. You are making a bad argument in order to simply make an argument and in doing so, trying to make GC look bad, and that

is

anti-town.[/quote]

Don't be pedantic. Whether or not the point was worded correctly or not, the fact is, GC's argument was nonsensical. Rather than fill the game with irrelevant bs, how about we keep to the facts?

BM

[Battle Mage]

jesus....

This is gonna be a long game. I can feel it.

BM

[farside22]

Vote: Natirasha

Also, see sig.

Explain yourself

?

BM

I think he is asking about the self vote that Nat does every game and every game someone ask him why he self voted.

[Battle Mage]

Vote: Natirasha

Also, see sig.

Explain yourself

?

BM

I think he is asking about the self vote that Nat does every game and every game someone ask him why he self voted.

Given that information, do you think it is wise to interrogate Nat?

BM

[Sir Tornado]

unvote

FoS Seraphim

Why on earth would a townie, with no guilty feelings feel there is a trap somewhere?

BTW, I have changed my view on Hoopla. I don't think his early actions were scummy anymore. I don't think GC is scummy at this point either.

BM, stop multi posting please. It increases the page count too much and starts depressing me when I turn up at this thread after a gap of couple of days.

[Battle Mage]

unvote

FoS Seraphim

Why on earth would a townie, with no guilty feelings feel there is a trap somewhere?

BTW, I have changed my view on Hoopla. I don't think his early actions were scummy anymore. I don't think GC is scummy at this point either.

BM, stop multi posting please. It increases the page count too much and starts depressing me when I turn up at this thread after a gap of couple of days.

Lol, we seem to have this discussion every game. We voted on it, and the majority concluded that they'd rather have lots of small broken up posts, than 1 or 2 massive, frightening ones. If you arent looking for a long game, this probably wasn't the one for you.

BM