Open 106 - Impotence Mafia (Game Over!) before 714

[Caboose]

I didn't want to revote EmpTyger so soon after unvoting him, but given my vote on him was for the ultimatum against Natirasha and he explained why he felt it necessary, I removed my vote. I had nothing new to contribute to his massclaim idea, which is why I didn't originally addressed it. Yes, I revoted in response to mrfixij, but that was because I realized that I should have taken his massclaim suggestion into account before unvoting, which I failed to do.

Why is Emp's suggestion of vig claim scummy?

I answered this already. Post #67.

True, Emp's idea is a bad idea in the end. However, it's not completely without pros to it. It gives the Town RB 2 nights to poke around, possibly stop a kill and investigate at the same time, which could end up being more valueable than the vig kill.
You explained why Emp's idea is a

bad

one. Now, convince me that it's a

scummy

one.


-----

Vote Count:

ZazieR

(1) - yorgi

mrfixij

(0)

chenhsi

(1) - EmpTyger

yorgi

(0)

EmpTyger

(2) - chenhsi, StrangerCoug

afatchic

(0)

BlondeSoWut

(2) - ZazieR, Appassionata

StrangerCoug

(1) - Caboose

Appassionata

(1) - BlondeSoWut

Zakeri

(0)

Caboose

(1) - mrfixij

Natirasha

(2) - afatchic, Zakeri

Not voting

(1) - Natirasha

With 12 players alive, 7 votes will achieve a lynch.

Deadline for Day 1 is January 3.

[StrangerCoug]

Anything that helps the Mafia more than the town is scummy in my eyes, thus the idea is scummy in my eyes.

[Caboose]

So you don't think it's possible for townies to have bad ideas?

[StrangerCoug]

It's very possible for townies to have bad ideas. Miserable ideas, even. But EmpTyger admitted that he didn't think it through all the way before bringing it up, and he should have thought it through all the way.

[Caboose]

Have you ever said something that seemed like a good idea at the time, but it really turns out to be a bad one? And have you done so as town?

[StrangerCoug]

I believe so on both counts, but the one example I can think of off the top of my head is unfortunately ongoing. Your question convinces enough for me to go ahead and

unvote EmpKing

, however.

I believe you mean EmpTyger.

Natirasha's general anti-town behavior is still helping nobody, so

vote: Natirasha

.

[Caboose]

I don't get this Nat wagon. I don't think he's been particularly useless this game.

Vote: Natirasha For claiming NK-Immune GF.

Joke vote. I'll write this off as usual.

Actually, I'm making it my thing to claim serial killer in any massclaim situations from now on.

Useless post.

EmpTyger, I understand you hate self voting, me, and jokeclaiming, but are you serious.

I, too, support a mass-vig claim.

Actually expresses his opinion on the mass claim. Not useless.

Have you known me to ever not support a claim?

Useless.

EmpTyger, you are voting someone for something they haven't done. I've had 4 posts in this game. One, of course, is my self-vote which I do in every game. The second and third are content. This is my fourth. So, can you present to me some of this "anti-town behavior"?

Additionally, I find your "We're under strict deadline" speech to be a false dilemma. We have a month. That's more than enough time to get a lynch in a open game. Heck, I've finished open games in half that time.

unvote, vote: Emptyger as a matter of principle.

Has content, not useless.

If we have 4 claimed vigs, one is scum.
If we have 3 claimed vigs, the roleblocker acts as a doc-cop to the other 9 players.
If we have more than 4 claimed vigs, we essentially win the game because the mafia is retarded.

Lays out scenarios.

There's more posts that I don't have time to lay out right now, but I'll get to that later.

[StrangerCoug]

I thought I said Nat was helpless, not useless.

[yorgi]

While I appreciate Emp's point of view I disagree with it. I just think all he it does is help the scum. I agree that a mass claim would be in order later in the game. Most likely lylo or just before lylo depending on number of vig's alive in game.

[Caboose]

I thought I said Nat was helpless, not useless.

I don't think Nat has been anti-town today thus far.

[Caboose]

Vote: EmpTyger. Why don't I have stripes like you?

Joke vote, will write this off.

Soo I just noticed. We have to catch the mafia, right? Well they are gonna try to play like the town. So how do we know who is in the mafia?

That's what we will hope to find out.

Anyway, all other random votes are irrelevent as we will by lynching StrangerCoug today.

Vote: StrangerCoug

I know there are joke votes and random voting but what is with this comment.

Oh I know he's just kidding with me xD

Also do we really need to confuse people with fake claiming scum roles Nat?

Not to meta-defend him, but keep in mind that Natirasha acts anti-town in general. He has admitted to being the serial killer in at least one game, though.

Why did you call Nat anti-town in this post? I thought that the scumclaim by Nat was clearly a joke.

Hence "at least one"—the one game I played with you where you did so and actually were the serial killer.

Not much here. Factual statement.

I'm officially making my random vote a real vote for threatening to vote another player.

Voting for EmpTyger for something that's not a scumtell.
+scumpoints

Some people consider it so, and knowing Natirasha the way EmpTyger's post is worded rubs me the wrong way. (EmpTyger may not be familiar with Natirasha's meta, but seriously, why give another player an ultimatum?) The massclaim issue is another thing against Emp, and I don't like the idea of it at this stage of the game.

EmpTyger was trying to get Nat to not be useless, and you vote him for it? I don't get that. How is offering an ultimatum to get someone to stop acting anti-town scummy? And the fact that you're voting Nat yourself for being useless just adds to the hypocrisy here.
+more scumpoints

I don't think unhelpful players should be tolerated, but I don't like the concept of an ultimatum in Mafia either. I buy your defense for the ultimatum, however, so I will unvote you. I'll look at reactions when I check on my other games.

I don't see what your hang up is over Emp's threat. He's pretty much doing what you're doing now, which is basically saying "Be helpful or be lynched."
I don't like the unvote, either. You tried to make a crap case on Emp and then you backed off when you saw that it would blow up in your face.
+even more scumpoints

OK, looking at this EmpTyger/Natirasha deal again, I'm still looking at EmpTyger, but for the massclaim suggestion instead of the ultimatum. As I said, I see why EmpTyger's is going after Natirasha, and I'm not liking Nat either. I'm pretty sure at least one of these two people is scum at this point, but page 3 is too early to say anything definitive.

FoS: Natirasha and EmpTyger

Don't know why you FoS'ed Nat since he didn't do anything particularly scummy. This post also suggests fencesitting which = more scumpoints.

Any particular reason? We're clearly out of random voting.

Nothing anti-town in this post.

Not sure which one's really scummier than the other, but I'm leaning EmpTyger at the moment.

...Ah, what the hell. Vote: EmpTyger again.

This comes after a mrfixij post asking why SC doesn't have a vote on either Nat or Emp. Knee-jerk reaction? This post looks forced.

When two people are pretty high on my scum list, them both being innocent is simply not something I think about. I know that I could be completely wrong, and I may find people more suspicious than you two, but that's my current stance.

It's already been addressed, so I didn't talk about it, but since you asked so nicely, I will: A vig massclaim supports the Mafia more than the town. To massclaim vig/not vig means that it takes at most two nights to completely shut down the vig. The first night, the mafia roleblocks one claimed vig and kills another. If the town gets a nightkill, the roleblocked vig has to be one of the two shooting blanks, so the best roleblocking target is the vig that the Mafia didn't do anything to the previous night.

Most people seem to be going pro-town about it.

You explain how Emp's idea is a bad one very well. However, you fail to explain how Emp's idea is scummy. Still waiting for case on Nat from you at this point.

I didn't want to revote EmpTyger so soon after unvoting him, but given my vote on him was for the ultimatum against Natirasha and he explained why he felt it necessary, I removed my vote. I had nothing new to contribute to his massclaim idea, which is why I didn't originally addressed it. Yes, I revoted in response to mrfixij, but that was because I realized that I should have taken his massclaim suggestion into account before unvoting, which I failed to do.

So still. Why is Emp's idea scummy?

I answered this already. Post #67.

Again, you explained why it was

bad

. You didn't explain why it was scummy.

Anything that helps the Mafia more than the town is scummy in my eyes, thus the idea is scummy in my eyes.

So it's impossible for townies to have bad ideas that will help scum in the end without the townie realizing it?

It's very possible for townies to have bad ideas. Miserable ideas, even. But EmpTyger admitted that he didn't think it through all the way before bringing it up, and he should have thought it through all the way.

Not thinking off all possibilities before bring up an idea =/= scummy

I believe so on both counts, but the one example I can think of off the top of my head is unfortunately ongoing. Your question convinces enough for me to go ahead and unvote EmpKing, however.

Natirasha's general anti-town behavior is still helping nobody, so vote: Natirasha.

You jump off of Emp and go onto Nat, still with no explanation as to all this anti-town behavior Nat is showing.

I thought I said Nat was helpless, not useless.

WHY?

[StrangerCoug]

Soo I just noticed. We have to catch the mafia, right? Well they are gonna try to play like the town. So how do we know who is in the mafia?

That's what we will hope to find out.

Anyway, all other random votes are irrelevent as we will by lynching StrangerCoug today.

Vote: StrangerCoug

I know there are joke votes and random voting but what is with this comment.

Oh I know he's just kidding with me xD

Also do we really need to confuse people with fake claiming scum roles Nat?

Not to meta-defend him, but keep in mind that Natirasha acts anti-town in general. He has admitted to being the serial killer in at least one game, though.

Why did you call Nat anti-town in this post? I thought that the scumclaim by Nat was clearly a joke.

I implied that being anti-town was his meta. Not that he was really antitown in this game yet.

I'm officially making my random vote a real vote for threatening to vote another player.

Voting for EmpTyger for something that's not a scumtell.
+scumpoints

I'd explain my experience with this, but it's in an ongoing game. But depending on the circumstances, it can be a scumtell.

Some people consider it so, and knowing Natirasha the way EmpTyger's post is worded rubs me the wrong way. (EmpTyger may not be familiar with Natirasha's meta, but seriously, why give another player an ultimatum?) The massclaim issue is another thing against Emp, and I don't like the idea of it at this stage of the game.

EmpTyger was trying to get Nat to not be useless, and you vote him for it? I don't get that. How is offering an ultimatum to get someone to stop acting anti-town scummy? And the fact that you're voting Nat yourself for being useless just adds to the hypocrisy here.
+more scumpoints

I think EmpTyger and Natirasha are scummy independent of each other. Unlike EmpTyger, I never said anything along the lines of "stop doing this unless you want me to vote you". My first vote on EmpTyger was for the threat itself, not the reasons thereof which was the basis of my unvote. I felt was right for EmpTyger to call Natirasha out for his actions. I did not feel it was right, however, for EmpTyger to give Natirasha an ultimatum. Clear?

I don't think unhelpful players should be tolerated, but I don't like the concept of an ultimatum in Mafia either. I buy your defense for the ultimatum, however, so I will unvote you. I'll look at reactions when I check on my other games.

I don't see what your hang up is over Emp's threat. He's pretty much doing what you're doing now, which is basically saying "Be helpful or be lynched."

My later posts reflect my understanding of why Emp did what he did. I do not see myself as a hypocrite regarding this given I dropped the ultimatum case when I started pressuring Natirasha.

I don't like the unvote, either. You tried to make a crap case on Emp and then you backed off when you saw that it would blow up in your face.
+even more scumpoints

See response to my #5 in isolation.

OK, looking at this EmpTyger/Natirasha deal again, I'm still looking at EmpTyger, but for the massclaim suggestion instead of the ultimatum. As I said, I see why EmpTyger's is going after Natirasha, and I'm not liking Nat either. I'm pretty sure at least one of these two people is scum at this point, but page 3 is too early to say anything definitive.

FoS: Natirasha and EmpTyger

Don't know why you FoS'ed Nat since he didn't do anything particularly scummy. This post also suggests fencesitting which = more scumpoints.

I don't like rehashing what I or other people have said, and once again I was hesitant to revote Natirasha so soon.

Skipping over your case on my #9–#13 in isolation as either stuff I've addressed the best I can already or stuff I'll address below.

It's very possible for townies to have bad ideas. Miserable ideas, even. But EmpTyger admitted that he didn't think it through all the way before bringing it up, and he should have thought it through all the way.

Not thinking off all possibilities before bring up an idea =/= scummy

It's still more pro-town to think things completely through than not.

I believe so on both counts, but the one example I can think of off the top of my head is unfortunately ongoing. Your question convinces enough for me to go ahead and unvote EmpKing, however.

Natirasha's general anti-town behavior is still helping nobody, so vote: Natirasha.

You jump off of Emp and go onto Nat, still with no explanation as to all this anti-town behavior Nat is showing.

Again, I don't like rehashing stuff already said. You yourself have said that some of his posts are useless. Not all of them, but I find fluff posts like those you brought up scummy.

I thought I said Nat was helpless, not useless.

WHY?

Has Natirasha contributed to scumhunting worth squat yet, for example?

[BlondeSoWut]

Why are people only looking at Emp and Nat as mafia? What about Ap and Chen?

[StrangerCoug]

Why are people only looking at Emp and Nat as mafia? What about Ap and Chen?

Why Appassionata and chenhsi?

[Natirasha]

Why are people only looking at Emp and Nat as mafia? What about Ap and Chen?

Why Appassionata and chenhsi?

Lurkers.

[Zakeri]

Vote Natirasha

since he's already claimed to refuse to be of any help during the plan's activation, if not the entirety of the game.

Where did I ever say this?

Actually, I'm making it my thing to claim serial killer in any massclaim situations from now on.

Q.E.D.

Why are people only looking at Emp and Nat as mafia? What about Ap and Chen?

Why Appassionata and chenhsi?

I think the point of her post was "Why not Appassionata and Chenhsi?" Frankly, I sort of agree, and I would like to throw afatchic into that mix as well.

Chenhsi also has the bonus of not having posted since his joke vote on Emptyger. Were you planing on leaving that there in case he got lynched?

[EmpTyger]

[I have not/am not having a particularly simple weekend- forgive me for being less comprehensive than I like in this post, at least through Monday.]

---

Natirasha:
One step forward, 2 steps back. Not paying attention? Lying about your reason for a vote?

---

SC:

When two people are pretty high on my scum list, them both being innocent is simply not something I think about. I know that I could be completely wrong, and I may find people more suspicious than you two, but that's my current stance.
<snip>

Your suspicions happen to align with who has the most votes and why they’ve gotten them, even to the point of contradiction. Why would you attack me for attacking Natirasha, when Natirasha is your second highest suspect?

And with [69]- you seem more concerned with how other people perceived your vote than what you were actually doing with it.

<snip>
I'll look at reactions when I check on my other games.

Did you find anything?

Most people seem to be going pro-town about it.

That’s nice and vague. Which people- more importantly, who not?

It's very possible for townies to have bad ideas. Miserable ideas, even. But EmpTyger admitted that he didn't think it through all the way before bringing it up, and he should have thought it through all the way.

I *strongly* disagree. To take an extreme example: in lynch-or-lose, then, you’d argue that a player should just cast a vote when they think they’re ready, and do nothing- no discussion of thoughts, no seeking of feedback until then? Of course not.
No, it is antitown to do nothing until you’re sure. That is how mafia get to not commit to anything, giving them maximum potential opportunism.

---

yorgi:
Why [83] ignoring Zakeri’s [71], which says the opposite?

[Natirasha]

Natirasha:
One step forward, 2 steps back. Not paying attention? Lying about your reason for a vote?

You caught me on the not paying attention. I coulda swore you vote me though...

On the lying about my reason, the principle was you were voting me, I suppose.

[StrangerCoug]

SC:

When two people are pretty high on my scum list, them both being innocent is simply not something I think about. I know that I could be completely wrong, and I may find people more suspicious than you two, but that's my current stance.
<snip>

Your suspicions happen to align with who has the most votes and why they’ve gotten them, even to the point of contradiction. Why would you attack me for attacking Natirasha, when Natirasha is your second highest suspect?

I just clarified it's the ultimatum itself that was the reason for my first vote on you, not specifically you issuing it against Natirasha. I unvoted when you explained that you were using it to try to get Natirasha to, in a word, behave.

<snip>
I'll look at reactions when I check on my other games.

Did you find anything?

Most people seem to be going pro-town about it.

That’s nice and vague. Which people- more importantly, who not?[/quote]
I thought Zakeri's and Caboose's responses were the most helpful, and BlondeSoWut seems to be pro-town. I don't like how Natirasha acted, but probably because I'm against massclaiming vig/non-vig on Day 1. I wasn't specific because I thought the town in general reacted in a pro-town manner.

It's very possible for townies to have bad ideas. Miserable ideas, even. But EmpTyger admitted that he didn't think it through all the way before bringing it up, and he should have thought it through all the way.

I *strongly* disagree. To take an extreme example: in lynch-or-lose, then, you’d argue that a player should just cast a vote when they think they’re ready, and do nothing- no discussion of thoughts, no seeking of feedback until then? Of course not.
No, it is antitown to do nothing until you’re sure. That is how mafia get to not commit to anything, giving them maximum potential opportunism.

I understand you here, but I don't remember saying town wasn't allowed to think out loud; in fact, if thinking out loud was forbidden, this game would go nowhere.

[afatchic]

Hey sorry I haven’t been very helpful, but ill get into it now. I’m still liking my vote on Nat. while its still early and I don’t have a whole lot to go on… this is why im still voting Nat.

unvote, vote: Emptyger

as a matter of principle.

the principle was you were voting me, I suppose.

First, she puts Emptyger at L-2 on page three, and I could easily see in danger of a mishammer, with how quickly the wagon had already filled. But she used the excuse “as a matter of principle”, which implies she may have a decent reason for the L-2 this early. But then she says the “matter of principle” was am OMGUS vote, which puts a player at L-2, out of the RVS.
Then in post 65 she uses the excuse of not paying attention. This seems like a cop-out for carelessly putting someone at L-2. She says that its her meta to not care when she plays as vanilla, thus implying a vanilla role. Yet she has cared enough to be one of the more talkative people. So therefore im not believing this excuse.

My next suspect is Zakeri:
However she hasn’t really posted much so I can’t really post much against her. But what I don’t like is her excuse to jump onto Natirasha. She uses the excuse because she has said she would be no help, which for multiple reasons is wrong.
1) I don’t really know where you are getting this, but I sure didn’t see it.
2) this isn’t scummy in itself. And if she refuses to be helpful, get the mod to replace her.
3) Majority of the time when someone places a vote, jumping the wagon, on a reason that is false and not scummy, they are scum.

FOS Zakeri

[StrangerCoug]

My next suspect is Zakeri:
However she hasn’t really posted much so I can’t really post much against her. But what I don’t like is her excuse to jump onto Natirasha. She uses the excuse because she has said she would be no help, which for multiple reasons is wrong.

Natirasha is male.

2) this isn’t scummy in itself. And if she refuses to be helpful, get the mod to replace her.

I'm not a fan of getting the mod to eject people for refusing to be of any help per se, but there are some case where I find this warranted (e.g. the only thing someone's done all game is spew insults).

[mrfixij]

My apologies for not being more active, I've been busy with work and haven't had much time to log on. I'm going to get caught up with the recent activity. So far it seems like the big issues are Nat's attack on EMP, which then fell through and redirected attention to nat due to a meta of unhelpfulness.

Meta is a dangerous weapon. On one hand, it's great for finding scum if they have two distinct styles of play. On the other, it turns a player into an instant-lynch as either faction if they're known to be unhelpful.

As far as putting EMP at L-2, how is that scummy or unhelpful? If EMP is scum, then it's proceeding towards a scum lynch. If EMP is town, odds are very high that someone on that wagon is scum.

As far as my opinion on EMP/nat goes, neither looks particularly scummy. You're voting nat based on a meta and voting EMP based on a suggestion that shows great benefit to our roleblocker. I don't see how this makes either of them scum. I also think it would be a hell of a gambit to get into that kind of debacle if both were scum.

I think it's interesting that dumbblonde wanted info out of two lurkers who both stepped forward on P3 to say no to a massclaim and then step back into the shadows. I'm not entirely certain what it means yet, but I do think it's noteworthy.

But right now my biggest suspect is Zakeri. For starters, he's been on both the EMP and nat wagons, and both seem more town than scum to me right now. Also, this.

You have to weigh everything when if comes to the pros and cons of a plan.

If the three Vigs come out, We will get 9 Vanilla Claims. 1/3 of these people are Mafioso, 1/9 of these people is the protown RB

Pros:
-This prevents the PTRB from targeting Vigilantes
-Three people are confirmed town, which slightly tips the scale in favor of Town

Cons:
-This allows the MRB to block the Vigilantes
-Three people are confirmed NKed for the next three days, tipping the scales in the balance of mafia from non-informal NKs.

Of course, what we should be doing is scumhunting, not rolehunting. Unvote, Vote:EmpTyger

The thing about the Massclaim is that it truely is a good idea.

The problem however is that the long term effects begin weighing on the Mafia's side, while the shortterm effects weigh heavily on the town's side. Since this is an open set-up and we know how long we have until lylo, I propose that we do not utilize the plan until the day before lylo, to get maximized results from this while preventing the Mafia from confuse-lynching us.

Also, Question for the Mod: Will you be posting who got shot by the blanks as well as posting who died?

Emphasis mine. The first post seems to say that the cons outweigh the pros and that we shouldn't be rolehunting. The second quote says it's a genuinely good idea. While those aren't explicitly contradictory, they are divergent enough to warrant a vote from me.

unvote
vote:Zakeri

[Zakeri]

Emphasis mine. The first post seems to say that the cons outweigh the pros and that we shouldn't be rolehunting. The second quote says it's a genuinely good idea. While those aren't explicitly contradictory, they are divergent enough to warrant a vote from me.

Okay, you seem to be missing the point. The plan is a good one, but implimenting it now means that Scum can easily recover, take out our vig, and go on their merry way.

You say you catch me on saying it's a bad idea because the cons out-weigh the pros, and then I flip flop and say it's a good idea, but you

ignore

the fact that I actually went through attempting to remove and minimalize the cons between those two posts.

[Caboose]

I implied that being anti-town was his meta. Not that he was really antitown in this game yet.

And that's worthy of a vote because...
I'm personally willing to give Nat a chance.

I'd explain my experience with this, but it's in an ongoing game. But depending on the circumstances, it can be a scumtell.

I will have to disagree with you on that.

I think EmpTyger and Natirasha are scummy independent of each other. Unlike EmpTyger, I never said anything along the lines of "stop doing this unless you want me to vote you". My first vote on EmpTyger was for the threat itself, not the reasons thereof which was the basis of my unvote. I felt was right for

EmpTyger to call Natirasha out for his actions

. I did not feel it was right, however, for

EmpTyger to give Natirasha an ultimatum

. Clear?

What does it matter that Emp gave Nat an ultimatum?

My later posts reflect my understanding of why Emp did what he did. I do not see myself as a hypocrite regarding this given I dropped the ultimatum case when I started pressuring Natirasha.

So wait a second. Giving ultimatums is a scumtell, and it's basically what you're doing.
What's your current stance on ultimatums being a scumtell?

It's still more pro-town to think things completely through than not.

So the person who deserves your vote has the most scumpoints or the least townpoints?

Again, I don't like rehashing stuff already said. You yourself have said that some of his posts are useless. Not all of them, but I find fluff posts like those you brought up scummy.

Is it possible

not

to have a few fluff posts in a game?

Has Natirasha contributed to scumhunting worth squat yet, for example?

Go down the list of players and tell me the people who have contributed to scumhunting worth a "squat" then, according to your judgement.

[StrangerCoug]

What does it matter that Emp gave Nat an ultimatum?

It doesn't and it never has. It mattered that Emp gave an ultimatum period. Why is this still unclear?

So wait a second. Giving ultimatums is a scumtell, and it's basically what you're doing.

Show me where I personally am giving another player an ultimatum.

What's your current stance on ultimatums being a scumtell?

Still think so. Scummy kind of pushy.

So the person who deserves your vote has the most scumpoints or the least townpoints?

To be grammatically correct, the fewest townpoints pretty much. I generally equate anti-town with scummy unless otherwise is obvious.

Is it possible

not

to have a few fluff posts in a game?

Yes, whether I like them or not.

Go down the list of players and tell me the people who have contributed to scumhunting worth a "squat" then, according to your judgement.

I will when you answer my question.