Newbie 2039 | Endgame

[Flavor Leaf]

Hey, everybody.

I know one of the SE’s, and that is all. I guess I’ll do the stereotypical “what is your experience with Mafia?” Post.

[Flavor Leaf]

Awesome. Hope we can have a fun game. I like to know previous experience of newer players in newbies, because sometimes people know mafia really well, just new to the site. Helps me see if they’re genuine or not.

[Flavor Leaf]

Asking also allows for types of early game play other than RVS.

[Flavor Leaf]

Flavor leaf it would probably not be fair to the newbies if youre scum here, so why dont you just confess for us

In my like 20+ newbie games, I've only been scum once, and I lost.

[Flavor Leaf]

Any particular reason that you two aren't doing RVS?

RVS is one way to start the game, and how most games start. If I were to join in RVS, it would be simply that, RVS, so in the end, actively not voting in RVS is making a choice in itself for you guys to read. If you think it's scummy, you can vote me, and then you have officially moved past RVS.

[Flavor Leaf]

Once mentioned, I added in the spirit of clarity. IMO a flustered player would try to posit a excuse or distract. My fault happens to just be ignorance.

I like this.

[Flavor Leaf]

So... this doesn't really address my question. I understand there are reasons why someone may or may not choose to participate in RVS. I am curious what your reasons (as well wiyern's) for choosing not to are.

I think it does address your question; it shows my philosophy towards RVS in general, which I believe was a fine explanation.

What is anyone's reason for voting anyone in this stage?

If there were real reasons for voting/not voting, then it wouldn't be RVS anymore.

[Flavor Leaf]

Can you explain what you mean here?

i mean that flavor leaf won the award for best scum player last year, so it would be bad if flavor leaf rolled scum in most newbie games.

One of my only losses in 2019 as scum was in a newbie game. The only newbie game I had ever been scum in too.

[Flavor Leaf]

I'm the type who will actively do weird things, like a dollar on a string, type of deal, to watch and see if scum thinks they can get the dollar before I pull it away, if that makes sense. It doesn't matter if I see them pull the dollar off the string, or if they see me holding the string. All that matters is who gets the dollar.

And I like to set that kind of thing up, it helps me scum hunt. Not participating in RVS often can get me wagon'd, so that's always fun to say.

However, in newbie games, l try to explain every weird or unorthodox move I would play so that it's understood why it's happening.

[Flavor Leaf]

Can you explain what you mean here?

i mean that flavor leaf won the award for best scum player last year, so it would be bad if flavor leaf rolled scum in most newbie games.

One of my only losses in 2019 as scum was in a newbie game. The only newbie game I had ever been scum in too.

You replaced another player in that newbie game, like halfway through. Was that the reason or one of the reasons you lost?

This is a good point. Yeah, I replaced into a game where my partner, who was new to Mafia, was getting ran up, and I hard hard defended them. Then it went south still.

I actually might have lost a 2nd Scum Newbie game, but I might just be thinking of the same game.

I've played like 20+ town games in newbies, which is weird because everywhere else on site I used roll scum like constantly for some reason.

[Flavor Leaf]

Were my posts deleted?

[Flavor Leaf]

I guess I lost like two posts. It was me explaining why I started to lean town on Hank, amongst some other thoughts of my Mafia Philosophy. I'll retype it up later, I guess. =/ Shame, I'll likely be away today and tomorrow.

[Flavor Leaf]

Just checking in, I’m still out of town until late tomorrow, I just wanted to do a quick read through, so I don’t feel super out of the loop. I’ll hopefully have more to say later.

I’m vibing with Hank a lot. I’m really afraid I could get pocketed there because of lines like “i like your thoughts on Mafia Philosophy” or whatever he said, so in addition to already lean towning, I just feel comfortable with Hank? Does this make sense? I almost half hope he’s scum because I’m giddy to see how he keeps this dynamic of ours going. I’ll happily jump in your pocket right now. This is one of those things where if you’re scum, I’m telling you exactly what you want to hear, and that’s specifically part of the play I am choosing to try to get an accurate read on you, and I think it’ll be really interesting to see what happens.

Bice straight up called me out for not answering something, and I liked that a lot. I don’t even know if I mean that in an alignment way. She just makes me smile, I don’t know if I would call it a town read or not, but yeah.

[Flavor Leaf]

You can call it flirting if you want.

I’m still working my way up to that, I haven’t built up the confidence quite yet.

[Flavor Leaf]

And thank you, Sals. It’s from the show Shameless.

[Flavor Leaf]

You can call it flirting if you want.

I’m still working my way up to that, I haven’t built up the confidence quite yet.

You would flirt your way to winning, if you could, wouldn't you?

What do you mean, if I could? That’s exactly what I’m doing now

I’m hoping to flirt so well, the scum team just goes “he’s so charming, we should tell him we’re scum. I think he’d like that.”

[Flavor Leaf]

@Flavor, it doesn't work. You had been ignored, bro.

Rough life. I didn't even get noticed.

[Flavor Leaf]

I'm working with a Zurel/Hank town block for now. I could be wrong, but both to me seem like town.

Zurel seems natural, and generally, the conversation we had the other time seemed really natural, and the post they said about them just posting for the sake of talking I think comes from a town perspective.

I don't remember anything anyone else has done besides like some NAI things like just chatting.

[Flavor Leaf]

I don't remember anything anyone else has done besides like some NAI things like just chatting.

Salsa for me is one of the people I remember stuff from, but none of it is really AI, unless she's trying to pocket me by trying to charm me. A counter charm. She laughs a lot at my posts, and she talked about my avatar, but that's me jumping to that as a possibility moreso than me think that's actually happening, so I guess I could see Salsa as town too.

Who else does that leave?

Taylor
Bife
Frank Lucas

is this 9p?

[Flavor Leaf]

Taylor
Bife
Frank Lucas
Wiveryn
Trendall

I'm fine with the top 2, so I'm gonna look into the other 3 to pressure.

[Flavor Leaf]

im largely a tone reader, and flavor's tone feels different than previously. ive only seen town flavor though, so not sure that it makes flavor scum.

Yeah, I actively play Newbie games differently. I'll probably take a more active role soon. I just got home from a trip today.

[Flavor Leaf]

Taylor
Bife
Frank Lucas
Wiveryn
Trendall

I'm fine with the top 2, so I'm gonna look into the other 3 to pressure.

this doesnt feel like town!you

actually, this is kind of weird. This is what I do in most of my town games. I create town blocks and poe pools, and then analyze from there. I did this in the game I vig shot you, and cleared Battle Mage from it. Why does this feel different to you?

[Flavor Leaf]

I've been tricked, backstabbed and quite possibly bamboozled! Now... whilst I've always been partial to these kinds of strategies, what exactly differentiates a scum read from a town read in this instance?

I scum read people if I feel they're fabricating reads. I town read them if I think they have a genuine mindset, and I see their thought process.

This is early Day 1, so I am very aware I could be town reading scum, which is why sometimes I am able to specifically figure out a town read of mine is scum or vice versa. I like to figure out gamestates and look at every dynamic between players and look at why certain people are getting town read and where scum is trying to pocket/where scum want the momentum.

[Flavor Leaf]

not sure. partly it feels like youre being a bit too transparent. which makes sense from an SE perspective. but its different and im concerned.

I'm just saying what comes to my mind so people know what I am thinking in a way this specific playerlist would be able to understand me.

I also don't have any complete or overly strong town reads, so I'm trying to actively make things happen, or force people to talk, if even about me.

That was kind of why I brought up the No RVS vote as an action in itself. I'm half waiting for someone to try and discredit me, not unsimilar to what you're doing, but I think you're not necessarily doing it in a scummy way, which is good because you're a slot I have far less thoughts about this game.

[Flavor Leaf]

Kinda down just flipping Bife here, and moving to the next day.

[Flavor Leaf]

@Mod, can you check that the VC is accurate? I think Faria is still voting for me.

Don't have a lot of time right now, but I think I'm at L-1. Will claim and post some other thoughts/reads when I get home.

This is kinda townie because they're waiting on L-1 when someone could just hammer, but it could just be them waiting to talk to a scum partner. I usually would have hammered right here if it wasn't a newbie game.

[Flavor Leaf]

I mean, they either claim VT or a PR, and either alignment would claim either, so in the end, I don't know how much it matters to wait, if that's who we're deciding to go with.

[Flavor Leaf]

Can I hammer?

[Flavor Leaf]

lol @taylor hard mason slipping.

[Flavor Leaf]

Zurel and Wyvern are clear for me, no clue where in the rest of the lot scum is.

[Flavor Leaf]

hank kind of looks like a bus vote to me, so I'm starting there.

@Hank - Who is scum? You realize your vote looks like a bus vote, right

[Flavor Leaf]

The distinction between an SE and a noob is like the sky and the earth. I don't understand anything.

to be fair, there used to be an additional slot in newbies called the IC alongside SE's, the teaching position, and I did that almost constantly. I like that it's just SE now, though. I can play around a bit more and show my own Mafia Philosophy, in conjunction with site meta, of course.

Zurel would have to be feigning some major confusion if they are scum, and off the bat, I don't think that's what's happening.

[Flavor Leaf]

Frank, Salsa, Hank, Trendall

scum is in that 4, we have 3 fades to get them.

From other perspective's, I am also on that list, but if you see me as town, scum has to be in those 4 unless Zurel is scum faking all of this. I personally don't think they are, and would probably lose the game on that.

I need to find 1 townie in those other 4 that mean, and I believe we can squeeze a conf victory out.

[Flavor Leaf]

The distinction between an SE and a noob is like the sky and the earth. I don't understand anything.

to be fair, there used to be an additional slot in newbies called the IC alongside SE's, the teaching position, and I did that almost constantly. I like that it's just SE now, though. I can play around a bit more and show my own Mafia Philosophy, in conjunction with site meta, of course.

Zurel would have to be feigning some major confusion if they are scum, and off the bat, I don't think that's what's happening.

In my minimal experience of playing mafia, I have constantly rolled vanilla. So I don't have much knowledge about roles and mechanics and whatnot. (Also, I'm not bright but let's ignore that)

just need to find your other strengths. If you are town here, you're good at obv towning. If you are scum here, you're good at feigning like newbie obv town

[Flavor Leaf]

hank kind of looks like a bus vote to me, so I'm starting there.

@Hank - Who is scum? You realize your vote looks like a bus vote, right

bus vote means?

Bus means someone decided to vote their own partner to make themselves look townie, but in this case, I think it's far more likely that scum is on the wagon, if only because there's more people on it than off of it that are possible.

[Flavor Leaf]

Mason shares a private thread, but who is a mason talking to in that private thread??

Another mason.

and what are they talking about (because they have no active abilities)?

Masons know each other are town.

Taylor knew Bife was scum because Bife claimed Doctor, and Taylor was a Mason, and if you look at the setup, there's no possible way there can be a Doctor in a game with a mason.

[Flavor Leaf]

Mason shares a private thread, but who is a mason talking to in that private thread??

Another mason.

and what are they talking about (because they have no active abilities)?

Masons know each other are town.

Taylor knew Bife was scum because Bife claimed Doctor, and Taylor was a Mason, and if you look at the setup, there's no possible way there can be a Doctor in a game with a mason.

Why try claiming such a risky role?

She probably didn't realize the risk. Means her partner is probably Trendall or Frank then if you're thinking about her risk. I can see both of them not helping her out just because of activity reasons.

[Flavor Leaf]

hank kind of looks like a bus vote to me, so I'm starting there.

@Hank - Who is scum? You realize your vote looks like a bus vote, right

bus vote means?

Bus means someone decided to vote their own partner to make themselves look townie, but in this case, I think it's far more likely that scum is on the wagon, if only because there's more people on it than off of it that are possible.

understood, and for my case, I was the one who voted Birefringence first and didn't change my vote cause she didn't/couldn't prove herself as a townie, so the bus vote point is not applicable for me.

Well, I would say it's still applicable to you, but yeah, I'm not scum reading you at all, I think you're obv town, and Hank not having you in his POE means he's probably town as well.

[Flavor Leaf]

I think no need to answer my #171, Taylor. My stupid brain had caught up.

I asked this question to Tayl0r Swift but she didn't get the chance to answer me, so I want to know from you:

We do have the wild card called Wiyvern, though. I don't know when they will make a reappearance, if ever.

this post proves that bire is scum.

sorry I don’t understand, how do you come up with this idea?

When this happened, I thought it was because Wiyvern could be doctor and scums could use inactive players with possible PR as excuse there was no CC. But Taylor turns out to be Mason. So screw my dumb brain, she already knew Bire was scum because in Mason setup, there could not be Masons. So she had only been acting so scums didn't catch her as having PR and NKilled her.

I read it like she forgot she was a mason, probably because Wiyvern was MIA, so she legit forgot, then realized it when you brought Wiyvern up.

[Flavor Leaf]

Hank, if you're scum, you probably win this in lylo against me.

[Flavor Leaf]

poe = process of elimination.

used when people have multiple possibilities of where the scum is and narrow it down into a small pool

[Flavor Leaf]

I think no need to answer my #171, Taylor. My stupid brain had caught up.

I asked this question to Tayl0r Swift but she didn't get the chance to answer me, so I want to know from you:

We do have the wild card called Wiyvern, though. I don't know when they will make a reappearance, if ever.

this post proves that bire is scum.

sorry I don’t understand, how do you come up with this idea?

When this happened, I thought it was because Wiyvern could be doctor and scums could use inactive players with possible PR as excuse there was no CC. But Taylor turns out to be Mason. So screw my dumb brain, she already knew Bire was scum because in Mason setup, there could not be Masons. So she had only been acting so scums didn't catch her as having PR and NKilled her.

I read it like she forgot she was a mason, probably because Wiyvern was MIA, so she legit forgot, then realized it when you brought Wiyvern up.

What the hell. That's hilarious in its own right.

But this is making me suspicious of you, Flavor. An inexperienced player like me might not have noticed the possibility of Mason just from the exchange between me and Taylor. Wiyvern would have been a more viable NK, at least if I were scum.

Sure, that's fair. I personally think it was out right there and open, and I'm half suspicious of Hank faking not seeing that, but at this point, scum is going to act like they didn't see it no matter what.

Scum might not have even known they were masons, and just thought they were townie who caught scum.

[Flavor Leaf]

frfr, fair enough on that. I'd probably lynch me too, if I wasn't so damn handsome.
I mean, just

look

at that pfp

Lucky for you, hun. Because I don't care for appearance <3

Then you will

adore

my personality. I'm not like the other Heisenberg's, I assure you.

I mean, sure it looks like I'm bussing, but that could very well be anyone who piled onto the vote. If I were scum, I wouldn't have even voted there. I would have just waited for flavour to hammer it, or something. If I'm scum, I can vote and draw attention to myself, orrr alternatively I can just not vote, blend in with a couple of the others and be in a much better position that where I am now. I might be inexperienced, but I'm not dumb. I know what leaves me better off. Please tell me if there's something more 'towny' I can do to convince you all.

What's your take on Frank, Flavor?

I don’t remember Frank too much. I feel like scum is either in Frank or Trendall because they’re the 2 I’ve interacted with the least, so it’s almost like they’re hiding.

[Flavor Leaf]

You're right, yeah. It seemed like an easily counter-able role and I didn't put in the time to think the others might be equally so. I guess the crux of the question is: Was the situation so dire for Bire that she felt that a risky claim was the only solution to get out of being voted?

And yes, I get claiming to oust a power role, but I'd hardly consider a 1 for 1 trade any good. Especially in the first day, might I add.

What could have a scum done in that situation? It's quite formulaic: you get to E-1, you claim, someone CC, you get lunched. In some cases, the PR refuse to CC because they don't want to oust themselves. But the claim usually happens before that, so whether or not you can talk your way out of it is another story.

The way I see it, it's a last resort. Better try ousting one of the PRs rather than just dying like that, when you obviously know you're going to die.

Scum should have realized the threat Bife was in before she claimed, and been ready to try to pivot away a few irl days earlier, and pivoted.

It's why I'm leaning Frank/Trendall because they were more MIA.

[Flavor Leaf]

I don't see a world where we don't fade Trendall today.

[Flavor Leaf]

@Trendall - who you want tomorrow if you're town?

[Flavor Leaf]

i would bet the game its in those bottom 3. I think Zurel and Salsa bleed town, but I don't know if either of them are capable of feigning their obv townness and taking advantage of the fact they are newbies. I would be happy if either of them end up being scum because of that.

only 1 of them are scum, so we're in a good place. I'm hoping scum get afraid of me, and kill me off, because then it's essentially auto win.

[Flavor Leaf]

@Zurel - I'm like 85% sure Trendall is just posturing setting up for a turn onto me.

[Flavor Leaf]

I'll just say it how it is, I'm a giant threat to whoever is the last scum. They are going to have to figure out a way to get me faded this game for them to win here.

Trendall hasn't interacted with me at all, and I feel like it's because they're hiding from me.

[Flavor Leaf]

I’m the only other SE in the game is why.

VOTE: Trendall

[Flavor Leaf]

i'm 50-50 with whether I think this is fake or not

[Flavor Leaf]

I feel like they’re scum who is mad that we’re right for the wrong reasons.

Taylor, as the mason, knew there Can’t be a Doctor in the setup based on the setup in the rules post.

[Flavor Leaf]

Moot WIFOM point because Taylor pushed Bife hard, so that could easily be the reason they were killed instead, so i don’t know why you’re so hung up on that part of things. It made me not wanna read like any of your posts.

[Flavor Leaf]

I’m not even saying you’re 100% scum, Trendall.

It could be Frank or Hank. Get outta that nonsense

[Flavor Leaf]

I could have been wrong, but I’m like 99% sure I’m not wrong, and I’m even more positive that Wiveryn is the other Mason.

Normally, in this situation, we shouldn’t ever talk about that, but like, I guarantee whoever is scum has figured it out.

[Flavor Leaf]

Well, I’m town, and don’t care. You’re just being salty.

[Flavor Leaf]

And literally everything you brought up about me pushing is factually incorrect.

It’s Mafia’s job to find threats in town.

If you don’t understand that, you don’t understand how to play Mafia.

[Flavor Leaf]

I wouldn’t have.

[Flavor Leaf]

I’m the one who straight up said let’s full send her. I didn’t even care to wait for her to claim

[Flavor Leaf]

Scum has to eliminate me to win. That’s not an opinion. It’s a fact.

One of Frank, Hank, or Trendall is scum.

I don’t think Zurel or Salsa are ever scum this game.

It’s a fact that scum will have to misfade me to win this game

[Flavor Leaf]

That’s not an opinion. It’s a fact.

There is nothing 'factual' about this.

Hypothetically speaking, what if we eliminate you, Flavor?

You can eliminate me, but then you have to correctly fade the next 2, and I think HankScum sweeps in that area.

[Flavor Leaf]

That’s not an opinion. It’s a fact.

There is nothing 'factual' about this.

Disagree, but you’re actively not understanding the game of Mafia in and of itself, and I can’t tell if it’s because you’re town playing on not even really that much higher than a newbie level.

[Flavor Leaf]

But you could die this Night, Flavor. And if you don't die, I think the suspicion against you is only getting stronger.

I agree.

I think it’s worth letting me possibly get killed at night, though.

Killing me at night is probably a town victory because I need to be misfaded.

You should never fade Salsa or Wivern here. You understand why on both of those, right?

I think Trendall is just scum, because they’re actively ignoring logic. I don’t know of them really well, so I could just be expecting them to be a stronger player than they are, and if they are scum here, this is true that they are faking like they are a weaker player.

Frank hasn’t really talked, and Hank I want to say is town.

Trendall just took the bait. Scum has to take care of me. This isn’t opinion. This is fact.

Scum also has to take care of the town in Trendall, Frank, Hank.

This isn’t opinion. This is fact.

These are the slots that scum have to fade through and essentially be the last one standing within those 4. Killing in those 4 actively take the fade away which means that scum would have to fade in Zurel/Salsa, things I don’t see happening.

Does this make sense as to why? I’m trying to explain it as well as I can. It’s all the mathematical side of things.

It is 6-1 right now, 6 town, 1 scum, wiveryn, salsa are as good as conf town, Wiveryn because everyone else “doesn’t seem to understand” which means the other mason is obviously Wiveryn here.

Salsa i don’t think is faking their posts and is genuine town.

This means fades for scum have to be within the 5 remaining, kills probably Salsa and Wiveryn.

In theory, I shouldn’t say this in case scum actually don’t know where to kill, but I figured since it’s a newbie game, I would explain the factual evidence and math side of it all.

[Flavor Leaf]

actively ignoring logic

Again anyone can read the thread and see that this just doesn't resemble reality in any way.

Incorrect

[Flavor Leaf]

So basically NK are those who are believed to be town and cannot be removed by elimination, and elimination is those that can be used by scums to hide behind, and get miselimination?

Right.

Kill off the people who aren’t going to be eliminated by votes, and the ones that are less likely to vote where you want them to vote when you play scum.

[Flavor Leaf]

Honestly, just fade Trendall today, if the game continues, we can do a deep solve tomorrow, and decide together who of the 2 of the remaining 3 gets faded.

[Flavor Leaf]

Really, Hank? I'm thinking Frank has scum potential from no resistance on Bire, and then not really playing anymore could be scum feeling like they already lost.

[Flavor Leaf]

I think it's E-1

[Flavor Leaf]

Btw Flavor, how does one get better at learning about roles and mechanics? Aside from continuing to play, of course.

Looking at past setups, playing different types of games.

The wiki has a bunch of roles, and the Normal Queue is a good next step for game after the newbie game. I was interested in designing games and modding, so I naturally started looking at roles. Sky is the limit on what can be in Mafia games. Newbie games have one setup for every game, but the setup can be 1 of 9, which is what's called a Semi-Open game.

It's really just about experiencing many different types of games, roles, and situations. Like you won't know what buddying looks like until you see it, same with bussing.

You won't know how to bus perfectly until you've practiced it a few times, same with defending partners.

[Flavor Leaf]

There’s a whole section on the wiki for what’s allowed in the Normal Queue. All normal games go through a process of being balanced by the Normal Review Group.

They don’t have to be closed, but most are. That’s up to the Mod of the games.

[Flavor Leaf]

I am not scum, Salsa. I pushed Trendall, but I already said the list of players that can be scum from my POV.

It’s Frank or Hank.

[Flavor Leaf]

in theory, it can be Zurel, but i feel the amount they would have to fake here is a lot.

[Flavor Leaf]

Good day, everyone. You're looking well, Zurel and I absolutely adore that jacket, Flavor.

Onto business.

Wiyvern seems like an odd pick, all things considered. Can anyone find reasoning as to why Wiyvern was chosen over say, Zurel?

Good morning. Apologies for my absence from the previous day. I agree with Hank, I am unsure as to why Wiyvern was chosen, other than the fact it may have been a low risk NK.

So one of these are fake.

Wiveryn was a mason so they were confirmed town. I straight up said this last day phase.

[Flavor Leaf]

I was trying not to talk about it too much yesterday in case scum made a Miskill, but Wiveryn was the correct kill.

Taylor knew Bire was scum when they claimed and Zurel said something about Wiveryn because Taylor remembered they were masons with Wiveryn.

Everyone in the game besides Wiveryn also brought up confusion to why Taylor was killed, however, I think that could have been lucky.

I made sure people wouldn’t confuse it yesterday, so one of Frank and Hank are faking. Frank was mia yesterday, Hank’s vote on Bire looks like a bus. I’m leaning Hank.

[Flavor Leaf]

That is a good point. I completely planned on hammering, and was a little upset I didn’t get to.

Interesting take if you’re scum here, absolving you’re possible bus vote.

[Flavor Leaf]

Your* iPad bad

[Flavor Leaf]

I liked Hank’s defense about why ScumHim didn’t need to bus there, what about you, Zurel?

It hides the fact that he could have been voting specifically because they wanted to be on the wagon and use that excuse since it was happening anyways, but I’m kinda wanting to go Frank today, and if Hank is scum, deal with it if the time comes to it.

[Flavor Leaf]

Frank disappearing yesterday looks rough, and it looks like they’re trying to convince me specifically to go Hank.

[Flavor Leaf]

Maybe not. I just read it that way because they were just talking to me because I was posting. Forget that last post.

[Flavor Leaf]

Yeah, the time you guys were posting earlier is 6 am-7 am for me.

This is noon, and probably the earliest i can make it. I do stay up until like 2am-3am.

I think you did well here, Hank, for what it’s worth.

[Flavor Leaf]

Yeah, I really just don’t think it’s Zurel, and you did look like you bussed Bire, and your Frank push was something.

I didn’t even have time to come back to the day yesterday.

I would have likely went Frank anyways.

I know that one of you have been lying about questions like “why was “so and so” killed”, which also leans to Hank.

[Flavor Leaf]

Yeah, that’s fine.

I did like your answer. It was a good answer. It doesn’t mean you’re town. I know that I’m town, and the answer is good, I just think scum you has done generally well throughout this game, but the bus on Bire is what’s going to make me go you over Zurel if we aren’t talking about my gut read on Zurel being genuine.

[Flavor Leaf]

I can’t remember, but i feel like you slightly modifier yours avatar?

I’ve seen scum do that before, where they essentially gave up, added mustaches to their avatars to see if anyone would notice, then tried their hardest anyways.

Maybe I’m scarred from thaT fun happening, but i feel you might have done the same thing. I don’t remember the red eyes.

[Flavor Leaf]

I won’t. I’m waiting on your time.

I was just bringing a funny anecdote up about a time scum put mustaches on their avatar. I think it’s fair of me to think that would be happening again.

[Flavor Leaf]

Zurel wins this if he's scum and I'm happy to play that. We're just going to compete for his vote at this point.

You mentioned earlier that I win in lylo against you. Do you still see that as being the case?

Assuming that Zurel is innocent, do you find it a more likely conclusion that I've been bumbling through the game, perfectly embodying a new player, who knows exactly who to kill when... or would you say, from a neutral perspective, that the best maf player of 2019 is probably a more likely culprit?

It's a fair, if not divisive point to raise.

No, I think there’s a few things you could have done differently. But at the same time, if you expected it to get down to the 3 of us, then you didn’t need to convince me you aren’t scum, you needed to convince Zurel.

I think you fully expected me to come in today knowing you are scum.

I think your case on why ScumYou wouldn’t hammer Bire is exactly a reason why you chose to hammer Bire. Like you said, I was going to come in and hammer her anyways, it would look good for you to make a vote like that to stop more discussion.

Newer players as scum are more than capable of seeing where the correct kills should be than town, so I did note some fairness within you, however, Frank was making similar posts at the same time as you.

I quoted yesterday about how I believed one of you guy were faking like you were newer than you were, especially considering I laid out exactly why the mason kills were the right ones.

Everyone had an equal chance of being scum this game, just because I am good at playing scum doesn’t mean I’m going to be scum.

[Flavor Leaf]

In post 381, You also seemed to place special attention on how to bus well, which wasn't previously a topic of conversation. Whilst you could tie this back in with me, what

does

a good bus actually look like? Assumedly, one that draws as little suspicion as possible and what better a way to do it than asking for town consent first. You earlier mentioned that you were a little annoyed you

didn't

get to hammer Bire... why is that? As far as I'm aware you don't have any prior interpersonal dynamic, so why did it matter to you who hammered her in the first place?

Would I have looked better or worse if I hammered Brie?

The scum guide I wrote linked on my SIg breaks down a game where I bussed well.

It didn’t matter to me who hammered, I never said it did. All I said was yes, I would have hammered.

Taylor made it obvious they knew they were scum, and I saw that Taylor was town.

You also say I’ve been trying to get as little suspicion as possible, but I feel like I’ve been putting myself front and center.

[Flavor Leaf]

Oh, and do I need to remind you that Taylor, someone who has veritable experience with you, called you out on acting strange. It seems like you started becoming less openly transparent after this moment, too, might I add.

She had played exactly 1 game with me, I replaced in during Night 1 of the game, and I vig shot her Night 3. I did play differently this game because I'm in a newbie SE mode.

The same works in reverse here. Difference is, it seems far less likely for you to even still be alive than the inverse

I had to live. I explained this early. If scum killed me, they would have lost the game because of the Mason pair having to be killed.

Last night was the first night I was able to be killed off without scum throwing the game. If you had killed me, you'd be in a Hank-Zurel-Salsa situation, where you would lose every single time. At least in this scenario, you have the "Flavor is good" play to possibly get Zurel to paranoia vote me.

You're getting into WIFOM territory there and it speaks to the fact that your case against me is built on a tower of cards.

Where is this happening? And WIFOM is just a thing in the game to analyze. I don't believe I am throwing WIFOM around, and if I am, it's in the manner of me making sure not to just give Zurel a free pass, but I'm going to state right now, I'm not gonna vote Zurel. If that clears things up for you.

I have no doubt that newbies can see the right kills, however ScumMe would be having it a lot easier in the top 3 without you alive. Both Trendal and Frank are far more beneficial to top 3 as scum than you are.

This right here is coming from a scum perspective by you. You didn't get to choose. I pushed Trendall first because they were the only one off the wagon, and you were actively engaging me, so I figured that the more I let you talk, if you were scum, it would come out. I also don't think you were fully trying to convince me you were town, you expected and knew you were going to have to face me in final 3.

I pushed Trendall, who then piggybacked onto me. I looked bad after that. I wasn't even on the Frank wagon. You were unable to fade me before this day phase because it would make you look bad if you pushed me to be faded when I pushed Trendall, and yesterday, Frank was town reading me, so you cut off discussion early.

If it didn't matter who hammered, then why do I stand out as so very suspicious for hammering?

you're hung up on this. it didn't matter who hammered, you could have picked either one. You took an action. That is a scum move. Scum are forced to make actions in the game, and that's how townies figure it out. They figure out what actions scum choose to make and why. You chose to hammer Bire because you knew I was going to come in and hammer, so the fact you are using that to such a degree makes me believe the reason you did that was so you could specifically use the defense of "why would I hammerbus here as scum if you were going to do it anyways".

post 43 also has an interesting twist to it. You speak in the past tense. If you are currently town, then it's still the only newbie game you

have

ever been scum in. Seems you might have made a Freudian Slip on this one.

I will speak of every game in the past as in the past. This game will not change the sentiment of that being the only newbie I rolled scum in.

[Flavor Leaf]

And finally, if it didn't matter who hammered, then why are you annoyed by the fact that you didn't get to do it?

I like hammering.

In non-newbies, I'll hammer without letting people claim on Day 1 specifically.

In newbies, I will always teach and play by site meta, however.

[Flavor Leaf]

In newbies, I will always teach and play by site meta, however.

this is also why Taylor noticed something different. I have an incredibly unorthodox playstyle, but like, I can't play that way in newbie games because it would just cause a lot of confusion, so I play straightforward down the middle. A role model player, if you will, at least to the site's standards.

[Flavor Leaf]

VOTE: Hank

Respectful duel, respectful game. I'll be happy for you if you end up winning this, but I don't see any reason to wait to cross vote each other.

Zurel will make the decision, and hammer when they are ready.

[Flavor Leaf]

I am around, but I’m going to be in and out for a while, and might get caught up with stuff in real life.

Yeah, Zurel, you’re in the stereotypical final 3. I don’t envy your position.

It’s what makes playing the game of Mafia fun.

Zurel is conf town because they didn’t hammer. Scum never doesn’t hammer in this situation, so that’s what being hammer cleared means.

[Flavor Leaf]

Fun my foot.

It's all right to take your time answering. I too am going to be quite slow.

So my question for you Flavor, why am I still alive instead of Faria?

Salsa was obv town, and I was pushing like you had potential to be scum still, I would guess.

It'll be fun in hindsight, if that makes sense. haha

[Flavor Leaf]

for me, the stressful part is over. I'm just here living in the moment now that it's like confirmed Hank is scum for me.

[Flavor Leaf]

I’m here to answer any questions. I don’t know how immediate my responses will be, but if you post, I should be able o answer within the hour usually.

[Flavor Leaf]

I do see it, Zurel.

I just know that it’s not the case because I know I’m town here.

[Flavor Leaf]

That’s part of the reason I think she was killed, but more I believe it’s just Salsa was the most obvious town and never to be faded.

I had potential to both push you, and there was the paranoia all game.

Especially considering you said you would pick Hank over me in a 3p situation.

Like it sucks, but Hank’s hoping you see this final 3 and flip because of it.

[Flavor Leaf]

Hank’s played a good scum game.

[Flavor Leaf]

If you need to pick me, pick me. I understand the paranoia you’re having here. It’s what I like to call Flavor Fever.

[Flavor Leaf]

I do see it, Zurel.

I just know that it’s not the case because I know I’m town here.

And I'm Queen Victoria of England.

You can say anything you want, Flavor. Doesn't mean it's the truth.

You’re right. I said my casing on the page before, though.

I can already see you’re leaning me, I’ve just said what I had to say. I know Hank is scum who did exactly what I’ve stated, but I’ve seen my role PM, you haven’t.

How would you like me to help you show you I am town?

[Flavor Leaf]

Especially considering you said you would pick Hank over me in a 3p situation.

When did I say that? Day 2, I said I would choose you over Hank.

I meant pick to vote.

[Flavor Leaf]

When you said that, I immediately was like “hmm, that might very well be the final 3.”

It was the correct final 3 for them to bring.

I am fully confident I would have been able to convince Salsa. She was very susceptible to learning new stuff, and Hank hammered both Frank and Bire.

[Flavor Leaf]

And yet she voted you for wagoning trendal

Yeah, but that makes sense. Trendall and I were in a 1v1, that doesn’t make me scum.

[Flavor Leaf]

I would have been able to capitalize it as well.

Bringing this final 3 to the game automatically would bring in forth Zurel’s comment on fading you over me which brings extra paranoia to Zurel slot. While I can’t say for sure that I wouldn’t have made that Salsa slot, I know you killed Salsa specifically for some reason, and it looks like you have stuff ready to debate against me completely.

I am reacting to everything, and you came in here completely ready to push me.

That is why you are scum here, and hopefully will be your downfall.

I think you were having a fun time and wanted this 3 in the game anyways.

Salsa is also much more unpredictable and throws her vote around, I wasn’t thinking about that until now, but that could be another reason you killed Salsa.

[Flavor Leaf]

And to go back to Flavor, convince me why you didn't bus Bire. I was the one who made defense for you before, but I want to hear it from you yourself.

Technically, if I were scum, I didn't bus her. I just would have been condemning her to death.

Had I stated "No, let's not kill Bire." She wouldn't have been forced to claim.

Also, I would have coached her through the game, and had a plan for anything in the case that it went south. I'd have had it completely ready for her.


I also wasn't on Frank yesterday, although, again, yes I would have.

[Flavor Leaf]

Really, I kind of just went through this game hoping Hank wasn't scum so we could win together, which is why I wanted Trendall-Frank first, especially because Hank was talking, but like, all of Hank's posts are super scummy looking in hindsight, and I noticed the possibility of it before, I just more wanted him to be town, if that makes sense.

[Flavor Leaf]

Bringing Frank into Final 3 would have been the best play for me if I were scum, especially considering he said he town read me.

Hank just made sure to end the day before it came out.

I wouldn't have hammered Frank at the end of the day until we had more discussion. Maybe I would have, I'm not sure what or what I wouldn't have done if I showed up and saw him at E-1.

I didn't expect that day to end that fast.

[Flavor Leaf]

It was quite strange for me at least, considering I and Flavor were the ones making more decision on whom to kill. So for me those are kinda moot point, because you had always been careful following our decisions, and maybe mine particularly.

Do not mistake agreeance with compliance. I agreed with the kills we were making.

Doesn't this also mean you were compliant?

[Flavor Leaf]

Still enjoyed playing the game with you, Hank. Was good.

[Flavor Leaf]

@Mod, can you check that the VC is accurate? I think Faria is still voting for me.

Don't have a lot of time right now, but I think I'm at L-1. Will claim and post some other thoughts/reads when I get home.

This is kinda townie because they're waiting on L-1 when someone could just hammer, but it could just be them waiting to talk to a scum partner. I usually would have hammered right here if it wasn't a newbie game.

Geez, not used to people being so keen to lolhammer. Fine, I'm the doctor. More later.

Bire claimed because I was going to end the day.

[Flavor Leaf]

The Doctor claim completely outed her as scum. I would not have told her to claim doctor.

[Flavor Leaf]

You can call it flirting if you want.

Oh sweetie, if I was flirting with you, you'd know.

No comments from you, Hank

Also, look at this post, Zurel.

Not only did she not realize it was me trying to flirt, she also made a comment towards Hank.

[Flavor Leaf]

The Doctor claim completely outed her as scum. I would not have told her to claim doctor.

Titus claimed Doctor my last game. Isn't Titus really experienced?

what setup was it?

[Flavor Leaf]

it's different. doctor's a good claim for other possible setups rolled in this game, but I don't think this was.

I think she just claimed whatever first came to her mind.

[Flavor Leaf]

You can call it flirting if you want.

Oh sweetie, if I was flirting with you, you'd know.

No comments from you, Hank

Also, look at this post, Zurel.

Not only did she not realize it was me trying to flirt, she also made a comment towards Hank.

Read the context. She got the names confused similarly to how she got the flirting confused.

I wonder why you know that

[Flavor Leaf]

It doesn't necessarily matter to me what the context was regarding you, moreso the fact she knew to mention you.

I'm also coming from a biased position because I know Hank is scum, so I might be reaching a little and not realizing it.

[Flavor Leaf]

In other news, calling all of my posts scummy in hindsight is just... could you be any more obvious??

I was just thinking out loud.

[Flavor Leaf]

The Doctor claim completely outed her as scum. I would not have told her to claim doctor.

Titus claimed Doctor my last game. Isn't Titus really experienced?

what setup was it?

Mafia Rolecop, Mafia Goon, Town Tracker, Town Doctor, Vanilla Townie x 5

For a long time there was no CC and we almost believed her claim.

Yeah, that was a good claim in that scenario because there were other town PR's.

We had a Mason setup. Scum inherently know more than town because they know which column the game is set in because they know their own role layout.

[Flavor Leaf]

It doesn't necessarily matter to me what the context was regarding you, moreso the fact she knew to mention you.

I'm also coming from a biased position because I know Hank is scum, so I might be reaching a little and not realizing it.

This is yet another non-existent point.

Sure, but that was me actively acknowledging that I could have been pushing something that is just coming from my biased position, so I don't know why you're starting to discredit me harder.

[Flavor Leaf]

I can tell your bloods really fueled right now, this is probably a lot of adrenaline for you. Scum in final 3 is always super tense.

[Flavor Leaf]

I did.

[Flavor Leaf]

Yeah, I felt so bad. I was like "Maybe I shouldn't play newbie games for the chance I roll scum"

But yeah, I totally meant to save Bire, I just wasn't around during that time. I told her to claim Cop, I think which would have ended in the same situation.

I thought I was going to get caught out because I was the ONLY one to see that Taylor and Wyvern were the masons.

[Flavor Leaf]

I pushed her, so I could flip on her again. It would have looked pretty rough if I started defending her.

I have a big problem hard defending my scum partners who are newer, so I was trying to do it more indirectly. I was half expecting to go down and then have her win without me by me spewing her as town.

We had a big Mason gambit we were gonna setup to play.

[Flavor Leaf]

The Trendall push had me because new site players see different things than players who have been here a while, so I really really really wanted to 1v1 Trendall harder, but I actively took a more passive route there.

I had a lot of stuff ready to go at Hank, but I didn't want to make it look like I was ready, and I felt if I went more offensive, you would have voted, so I chose a more reactionary/passive route with Hank, while Hank came after me, so I think that made it look like Hank had an agenda. That was my idea, at least.

[Flavor Leaf]

Yeah, I can see that coming together nicely for you, Flavor. I wanted to take a similar approach, but I did get impatient

I was trying to actively poke at you a little bit to get your posts to look a little more chaotic. I did the same thing to Trendall.

[Flavor Leaf]

The thing with Trendall though, I could see the both point of views. So regardless of you being a scum, your points were right. I really, really wish that Trendall had not given up like that because I might have chosen him over you. I could read him but I couldn't read you. But Trendall was more insistent on proving he was right.

If you had played with scumMe before, I feel like you would have caught me here. I come across as much townier when I am scum.

Town me comes across as scum super easily.

[Flavor Leaf]

The paranoia people have against me when I'm town frustrates me, so my town game looks scummier. But the Flavor Fever is real.

[Flavor Leaf]

I shine as scum in closed setups because I don't necessarily get caught up in the structure of the "it's this or that", so I could have helped Bire claim a more untouchable role if this was closed. It's a great setup, though, the newbie one. My skillset just works better in closed.

[Flavor Leaf]

I'm good for you to release the PT

[Flavor Leaf]

is there a dead thread?

[Flavor Leaf]

I learned a lot from you though, Flavor. So thanks for that.

Though I'm so going to take a break. Fun fact: I played this game while having series of anxiety attack and I had to go the hospital, thus the V/LA.

Yeah, I always make sure to explain everything in newbies, even if it almost would have hurt my chances of winning as scum. I just think it's fair to both explain everything and make sure that everyone knows I'd do that as both alignments.

I hope everything starts to get better for you. Would love to play again.

[Flavor Leaf]

I do mod a lot of games, however, the games I mod are usually like 15-23 people, and they get pretty complicated sometimes, but I mod smaller Micros and Normals every now and then on my account called Boonskiies. Eventually would love to mod a game for you guys to play in. I had a good time this game.

[Flavor Leaf]

You're sheer willingness to talk over that last day Zurel was great, and like, I knew you would on Night 1 when I decided to take you and Hank both to final 3.

[Flavor Leaf]

Zurel's vote gave me a sigh of relief. This wasn't easy, I had to be extremely careful this game. One wrong statement would have caused me to be the fade here, and I was aware of it.

I knew this day wasn't going to be easy, and Hank put up an amazing fight.

Dude, you should have kept pushing that Freudian slip line.

Like, I'm not sure if it actually was, but for the life of me, I couldn't figure out how to respond to it. I don't think I did there, but it definitely looks like it, and I think that could have won the game for you if you kept that thread. I tried to brush it away like nothing.

[Flavor Leaf]

I've talked my way out of Cop guilties before, and have 7 years of experience on this site alone of Mafia, so the fact it got that close is super exciting to me. (My Boonskiies account is the one I used to play on, now I use it for Modding.)

[Flavor Leaf]

Salsa obv towned so hard. I almost killed her before killing Wyvern, and in hindsight, that might have been the better play.

[Flavor Leaf]

Thanks.

Yeah, you'll see in the Mafia PT whenever it gets released that Bire actually thought she was responding to me with that flirting line, she thought I was the one that said your post.

[Flavor Leaf]

I have updated my signature.

Haha, we both got Zurel quotes in our sig now.

[Flavor Leaf]

you replaced the quote in my sig "If scumFL sets out to make you town read them, you'll town read them, you just don't know it yet." good one, but it had been there a few years.

[Flavor Leaf]

you replaced the quote in my sig "If scumFL sets out to make you town read them, you'll town read them, you just don't know it yet." good one, but it had been there a few years.

Yeah, that did bother me. I kept going back and forth in my mind about you. So if I read him as scummy, then he's not? Vice versa? But I'm paranoid, though.

you just didn't know the level of the "you just don't know it yet" and how far it went.

Yeah, i have other games in play rn, but I gotta call it for a day or so after this one

[Flavor Leaf]

I liked the laser eyes.

I had no intention of ever trying to case Zurel this day phase. I knew it was coming down to a 1v1 between us since Bire died.

I think it was one of my only paths to victory this game, at least the cleanest way that didn't have things like Salsa voting out of nowhere.

Gladly would play again.

Yeah, it's a zoo. I would have been more aggressive playwise, push harder, come up with more cases if this wasn't here, specifically because that's what would get me town read. Here, the passive play worked really well, and I kind of liked it? I might try to use that more. Hmm.

Thanks for the game, everyone.

[Flavor Leaf]

easy.

You were dead, play the people in the game, not the outsiders

[Flavor Leaf]

If you think I’m scum, gotta get me faded, elsewise that scum read is pointless.

[Flavor Leaf]

Yeah, I definitely play in a way where I want people outside of the game to see me as obvious scum, that’s my own little game.

Doesn’t matter if you know I’m scum in game either, you gotta get me faded.