Newbie 2040 - The First Dark Age: End!

[Battle Mage]

I can't trust a man who votes me in his first post. especially when he knows I'm V/LA

VOTE: manwithnoname

[Battle Mage]

nameless and shameless!

[Battle Mage]

VOTE: donkihott

OMGUS.

Do you like Tayl0r Swift? I don't. We may get along

What's your beef with Taylor?

[Battle Mage]

VOTE: BattleMage because mages should know their places as support smh

Just realized I'm wagoning, ewie. Didn't see the vote before. Give me a bit and I'll come up with something witty for my next vote.

UNVOTE: Battle Mage

Hmmmm....

my thoughts exactly

VOTE: flowr

[Battle Mage]

this is the most skittish start to a newbie game i can remember. is putting somebody at 2/3 votes on page 2 really that scary?

[Battle Mage]

I think flowr should be prodded soon, so perhaps it would be better to look elsewhere for now.

Someone lurking/being due a prod is never a reason to "look elsewhere". Very important to pressure the quiet ones on Day 1.

Flowr's entrance was awkward, but I can't say I have the same scum read others do.

Manwithnoname feels towny to me. I like how he questioned flowr where he was awkward, but remains skeptical.

In post 38, AuroraDash wrote:
I wouldn't consider having two votes on one person during RVS to be at all interesting. On the other had, the "oops, my bad" post immediately after it shows, to me, a degree of image-consciousness.

Hmmmm...

VOTE: AuroraDash

Syryana seems slight scummy to me for this. It seems like he voted on AuroraDash for calling out flowrs for the thing others and himself are voting him for. Perhaps just RVS, but the way he doubled back from AD to flowr makes me think he has some kind of reads behind it.

I don't understand what you're saying with your Syryana-read here? Just hypocrisy? Although perhaps hard to judge given he didn't explain his AD vote.

You seem very reasonable and conservative in your approach to flowr, yet my sense is you haven't got a clear picture of the scum motivation here to support your vote on Syryana. Which feels like an inconsistent approach - I'd have expected more of a questioning style.

[Battle Mage]

this is the most skittish start to a newbie game i can remember. is putting somebody at 2/3 votes on page 2 really that scary?

QFT. Accidental quickhammers happen pretty much never and deliberate quickhammers are pretty much scumclaims as far as I'm concerned, so there's no reason to be so paranoid about putting someone at E-2 or even E-1.

For example:

VOTE: flowr

I mean, quickhammers do happen more often than that in my experience. But agree the starting-position should be to always assume a quick-hammer on town comes from scum.

[Battle Mage]

The inconsistency in Syryana's votes bothers me. Actually I'm okay with flowr's statement of not wanting to go on a wagon since it is his first game and I had (have) some of these thoughts as well.

Why'd you ask me about Tayl0r then?

What's your beef with Taylor?

Don't worry about it, in a couple of days I will be probably able to tell you. But it doesn't matter it was just a joke I was trying to set up for the chat and it is not serious at all. I was actually pretty impressed by her average of 50 posts per day.

inconsistency in Syryana's votes? it was page 2...my vote would've been a lot more inconsistent if there had been opportunities to do some wagonning.

[Battle Mage]

Syryana seems slight scummy to me for this. It seems like he voted on AuroraDash for calling out flowrs for the thing others and himself are voting him for. Perhaps just RVS, but the way he doubled back from AD to flowr makes me think he has some kind of reads behind it.

Not why I was voting AuroraDash. I didn't like the latter half of his post:

On the other had, the "oops, my bad" post immediately after it shows, to me, a degree of image-consciousness.

This looks like the sort of subtle thing scum say when they're testing the waters on someone. It implies I'm scum because I'm concerned about my image (as town typically don't care how they're perceived anywhere near as much as scum do {as a side note, players do exist that like to be townread when they're town, Bell for example, but by and large town doesn't care as much}). Yet even with the implication that I'm scum there's no vote to back it up, which adds to my testing the waters theory. This led into my vote. Now, he reacted fairly quickly and at the time I liked his response, so I moved back to flowr.

Further question, you mentioned my vote swapping implies I have some kind of reads behind it. Why did you point this out?

The inconsistency in Syryana's votes bothers me.

What bothers you about my voting pattern?

Pedit: Battle Mage, I think we're going to get along just fine.

don't get me started on Bell...I have never seen anybody seem so scummy when they are town - not surprised he would love to be townread for a change!

[Battle Mage]

eh UNVOTE:

[Battle Mage]

not reluctant no, but ask me again later.

[Battle Mage]

i'm fine with the votes on me for not posting much content, although in fairness we are barely 4 pages deep and I'm one of the higher posters.

I'll share my wisdom shortly.

[Battle Mage]

ill be back after work

[Battle Mage]

on the first 2 pages, my thoughts:

some townpoints to Syryana for moderately inconsistent and erratic voting
some scumpoints to manwithnoname for pointing out scummy open from flowr but not committing to a vote
some townpoints to AuroraDash for a good take on flowr (calling out scummy open as scummy)
more scumpoints to RLotus and Donkihott for possible whiteknighting of flowr. RLotus worse because it was more conspicuous, but Donkihott worse because it was sheeping RLotus.

going from top of page 3 now

[Battle Mage]

Syryana seems slight scummy to me for this. It seems like he voted on AuroraDash for calling out flowrs for the thing others and himself are voting him for. Perhaps just RVS, but the way he doubled back from AD to flowr makes me think he has some kind of reads behind it.

Not why I was voting AuroraDash. I didn't like the latter half of his post:

On the other had, the "oops, my bad" post immediately after it shows, to me, a degree of image-consciousness.

This looks like the sort of subtle thing scum say when they're testing the waters on someone. It implies I'm scum because I'm concerned about my image (as town typically don't care how they're perceived anywhere near as much as scum do {as a side note, players do exist that like to be townread when they're town, Bell for example, but by and large town doesn't care as much}). Yet even with the implication that I'm scum there's no vote to back it up, which adds to my testing the waters theory. This led into my vote. Now, he reacted fairly quickly and at the time I liked his response, so I moved back to flowr.

I'd assumed AuroraDash was talking about flowr re: the "oops my bad" post, not you?

[Battle Mage]

I mean, quickhammers do happen more often than that in my experience. But agree the starting-position should be to always assume a quick-hammer on town comes from scum.

I'll be honest I mostly belayed the SE wagon request because it occurred to me this was a micro. I haven't been in a game with fewer than 13 players in years. Not a scooby doo what site meta is in games this size anymore.

Better safe than dead. Which I say IRL a lot more than one would think, these days.

Pedit: Oh god I adore Bell. He takes some getting used to but once you figure out how to read him he's a shining beacon of towniness in an otherwise drab and depressing landscape. By the gods does he rack up a postcount though. Him and pooky.

Ah I love me some Pooky! My experience of Bell isn't that he's a big poster though - in our last game, he was definitely one of the quiet ones. although we did rack up 300 pages in a few weeks.

[Battle Mage]

I don't understand what you're saying with your Syryana-read here? Just hypocrisy? Although perhaps hard to judge given he didn't explain his AD vote.

You seem very reasonable and conservative in your approach to flowr, yet my sense is you haven't got a clear picture of the scum motivation here to support your vote on Syryana. Which feels like an inconsistent approach - I'd have expected more of a questioning style.

The reasoning behind the read on Syryana was because he scumread this post where AD is describing how he read flowr's post about not wanting to wagon.

On the other had, the "oops, my bad" post immediately after it shows, to me, a degree of image-consciousness.

While just before he had also jumped on the flowr wagon, which seemed contradictory to me. But, he elaborated on why he voted AD so the read on him is gone.

I think I'm ok with this

[Battle Mage]

It implies I'm scum because I'm concerned about my image (as town typically don't care how they're perceived anywhere near as much as scum do {as a side note, players do exist that like to be townread when they're town, Bell for example, but by and large town doesn't care as much})

I've seen this logic on this site several times, so it must just be standard here. I get that mafia tend to be more self conscious about what they say and you can make reads based on that, but why wouldn't town care about how they are perceived? If towns can all read each other town you can deduce the mafia by poe. By my estimation, projecting town is the second most important thing town can do, other than finding scum.

I think the logic often holds as town should care but care less because their wincon is not about survival. But I also agree projecting town is very valuable. I often compensate for being crap at finding scum by being obvtown

[Battle Mage]

This looks like the sort of subtle thing scum say when they're testing the waters on someone. It implies I'm scum because I'm concerned about my image (as town typically don't care how they're perceived anywhere near as much as scum do {as a side note, players do exist that like to be townread when they're town, Bell for example, but by and large town doesn't care as much}). Yet even with the implication that I'm scum there's no vote to back it up, which adds to my testing the waters theory. This led into my vote. Now, he reacted fairly quickly and at the time I liked his response, so I moved back to flowr.

To clarify, that part was supposed to be pointed at Flowr, not you, with regard to this post:

Just realized I'm wagoning, ewie. Didn't see the vote before. Give me a bit and I'll come up with something witty for my next vote.

RLotus: I'm thinking Syryana misunderstood my post, which I think kind of nullifies your reasoning. I don't actually have much of a read on him yet.

UNVOTE:

I don't think the fact Syryana misunderstood your post means RLotus' reasoning is nullified. RLotus suggested that Syryana had no good reason to vote you, Syryana did have a reason albeit one which was based on a misunderstanding.

The bigger question is whether the fact Syryana mistook a post criticising someone else, as a post criticising him, is a sign of self-consciousness?

[Battle Mage]

. I get that mafia tend to be more self conscious about what they say and you can make reads based on that, but why wouldn't town care about how they are perceived? If towns can all read each other town you can deduce the mafia by poe. By my estimation, projecting town is the second most important thing town can do, other than finding scum.

I'm just

piggybacking

Pig immediately returns from a prod:

SO far I don't have any strong or weak scum reads.

I am liking what BM and Syryana are saying in terms of townliness.

[Battle Mage]

While I still don't feel good about flowr, it feels a bit too easy. I don't have anyone else to pressure right now, but do I really believe we caught scum on the first page?

SO far I don't have any strong or weak scum reads.

I am liking what BM and Syryana are saying in terms of townliness.

Be careful not to equate an SE being helpful to the newbies to an SE being town.

Unless it's me

, then, feel free to always think I'm town because I'm just awesome.

somebody jealous?

it's possible to catch scum on first page! But i'm surprised you didn't feel good about flowr at this point, and continuing to push from the sidelines.

[Battle Mage]

UNVOTE:

Yeah I agree with the principle here, I too was interested in seeing how flowrs reacted. But, the game has practically revolved around him and still no response. So,

VOTE: AGamblingPig

Has flowr's response done anything for you? What about Pig's?

I am liking what BM and Syryana are saying in terms of townliness.

What in particular do you find towny about myself and BM?

Actually I'm okay with flowr's statement of not wanting to go on a wagon since it is his first game and I had (have) some of these thoughts as well.

Couldn't have said it better. In hindsight, I guess the thing about quickhammering being a scumclaim should've reassured me about starting a wagon that early. I usually play in Meat World and lurk the wiki, and this is my first game. Was afraid of issuing a fake scumtell and somehow managed to make myself even more suspicious.

Do you play/have you played a lot of F2F mafia?

Actually I'm okay with flowr's statement of not wanting to go on a wagon since it is his first game and I had (have) some of these thoughts as well.

Couldn't have said it better. In hindsight, I guess the thing about quickhammering being a scumclaim should've reassured me about starting a wagon that early. I usually play in Meat World and lurk the wiki, and this is my first game. Was afraid of issuing a fake scumtell and somehow managed to make myself even more suspicious.

I find this believable but the fact that it's latching onto someone else's explanation makes it hard to give much town cred for it.

Interestingly, that post you quoted makes flowr damn near locktown. I'm not explaining why right this second because ~reasons~, though. I have interrogations to conduct first~

I like the questions, but not convinced on the last bit. I thought we were on the same page with flowr, and we agree on the read, but apparently for different reasons and you have a much higher level of confidence. To discuss later.

[Battle Mage]

There didn't seem to be some attempt to create a counter wagon though. The scum!Flowr I would see right now also hints at a very experienced partner who may very tactfully move us to a different wagon. It's early yet, though, I need to find the towns. Town hunting, in my opinion, works better than scum hunting

...it was page 3. i dont think anybody would expect an elim to have happened, so why would Flowr-scum's experienced partner create a counter-wagon?

[Battle Mage]

Flower's original posting was pretty weak but the wagon built a little too fast on it. At the same time, the recovery seems a little bit too experienced for someone who's saying this is their first game.

I don't think "the wagon built too fast" is much of a basis for anything here. Firstly, I have seen scum wagoned early--not literally

as

often as town, but at least as often as you would expect of a random selection if not more. Secondly, the wagon broke down at least as fast as it built up.

I agree at this point -- the whole case against Flowr comes down to two awkward looking posts way back on page 1. It was worth bringing up at the time because it was the first vaguely interesting thing that happened, but it was really weak evidence to begin with and now the game's moved on and in my eyes Flowr is back to null.

I disagree on two counts. I think it was moderate evidence, and I think Flowr is a townlean as a result of that interaction which is something positive.

The inconsistency in Syryana's votes bothers me.

I, too, would be interested in an explanation of this statement.

ManWithNoName may be right. I may be misreading SEs being helpful to newbies as town, but both of you have had posts that read as explicitly pro-town to me

That's interesting. I was thinking just a little while ago that BM's posts in particular have seemed rather lacking in substance so far, with one or two exceptions. Understandable given the slow start, but not something I'd consider towny. Which posts in particular, for both him and Syryana, are you referring to?

Still a pretty weak read at this point but VOTE: Battle Mage

Well if you're looking for high-substance posts from me...eh....that's not really my style. high-volume, i can deliver

[Battle Mage]

That's interesting. I was thinking just a little while ago that BM's posts in particular have seemed rather lacking in substance so far, with one or two exceptions. Understandable given the slow start, but not something I'd consider towny. Which posts in particular, for both him and Syryana, are you referring to?

Still a pretty weak read at this point but VOTE: Battle Mage

yess, precisely where my head is at as well

VOTE: BattleMage

again, I'm finding it difficult to square this bold RLotus who votes first, and asks questions later, with the RLotus who gave so much benefit of the doubt to flowr earlier. Also I'm not sure I buy that you really thought same as AD here.

[Battle Mage]

The inconsistency in Syryana's votes bothers me.

What bothers you about my voting pattern?

Pedit: Battle Mage, I think we're going to get along just fine.

I'm currently re-reading the thread over and over trying to figure something out. What bothered me is that you were quick to cross AD out your list from just one sentence which to me doesn't vibe as town.

Overall his participation in the thread doesn't give me any information and in the ned I don't understand his stand with flowr's case.

So as a direct question to AD - what is your read on flowr at the moment?

My state of mind is currently like this: My suspicion on AD is rising, while Syryana's are decreasing. However I am okay with AD's vote because another thing that "bothers" me is that Syryana and Battle Mage are sticking up for each other and I don't know why.

Do you think Syryana and I are scumpartners in this game? And we opened by being nice and chatty with each other? Seems unlikely to me!

I'm inclined to agree on Syryana jumping off AD quite easily, especially given we now know he thought AD was attacking him, being noteworthy.

[Battle Mage]

How do you read the people that wagoned you and the people that defended you so far?

Still waiting on flowr to answer this

because you want flowr to recognise that you were one of the people defending, and stop voting for you?

I'm not ready to put him in a town block but it was a weird thing worth considering as more information comes out and reads are better formed.

This game is on page 4 and I feel like I'm doing real time commentary.

Do you have any more substantiated reads? It seems like most of the things you have said have been pretty surface level.

Currently my strong towns are Syryana and AD, with Umlaut moderate town. My preferred kills atm would be in BM, MWNN, or Pig. None of those kills are confident so will hopefully evolve as the day goes on.

Killing me today is no bueno.

[Battle Mage]

There didn't seem to be some attempt to create a counter wagon though. The scum!Flowr I would see right now also hints at a very experienced partner who may very tactfully move us to a different wagon. It's early yet, though, I need to find the towns. Town hunting, in my opinion, works better than scum hunting

...it was page 3. i dont think anybody would expect an elim to have happened, so why would Flowr-scum's experienced partner create a counter-wagon?

It's a newbie game, people are jumpy I'd hard push early if I needed to

i think only a very inexperienced scumpair would panic there

[Battle Mage]

Balfruss can be town, this looks like his town to me.

assuming i'm Balfruss, this is a good read!

hold on...are you who i think you are?

[Battle Mage]

VOTE: RLotus

lowkey scummiest so far

[Battle Mage]

haha my last completed game lasted 4 or 5 day phases, and was only 20 pages. but the game before that, was over 300!

[Battle Mage]

again, I'm finding it difficult to square this bold RLotus who votes first, and asks questions later, with the RLotus who gave so much benefit of the doubt to flowr earlier. Also I'm not sure I buy that you really thought same as AD here.

Tbf I did ask you a question about your vote on flowr before voting you

But I get your point, the aggressive voting and my behavior with flowr are contradictory. However, as I explained flowr was getting pressured and pressured but wasn't giving any reaction. It wasn't that I hated the pressure on him, but I had scum pings from Syryana and later on you that I wanted to explore as well. My logic was if flowr wasn't going to give anything, I would try to move the game forward by getting reactions from others. Which, in the end did prove to be more helpful, at least to me.

What exactly about this do you find scummy? Because I figured I was doing something helpful. Was it solely the contradiction, or something else entirely that you are reading me for?

But I want to comment on this, because I sort of had similar feelings but wrote it off to playstyle differences, where RLotus' early posting was more declarative and observational rather than what I'd expect from a newbie (i.e. questions, interest in moving the game state, etc.). I think Battle Mage (Balfruss) pointed this out earlier, and curiously RLotus started asking questions after this was pointed out. I haven't really thought about it in any depth though and as I said I'd chalked it up to playstyle differences and written it off until I saw this

About the first point: For context, this is my first game of mafia and everything I know about the game comes from watching video mafia on twitch. The way that video mafia is played is much different from the mafia here, from what I am learning. They are more proactive about giving reads and pushing on people, and use this to gather reads. It seems here it is more conversational and people withhold their reads until they are ready to push. So, that explains if I seem to be playing weird, that is the way I know how.

Yes, BM called me out for calling you scummy and voting instead of questioning you, which was a good point. I could have avoided the scumread by asking you to explain your vote on AD. So, I took this as criticism and began questioning someone before I voted them.

I've never heard of this "video mafia" thing, although I'm probably a little old to twitch anyway. But what you describe as the principle there is basically how it should be here. I'm not a fan of withholding reads - openness and honesty should be the norm, unless there is a specific reason to keep your cards close to your chest.

To be clear, I wasn't criticising you in a personal way, I simply pointed out what I felt was a contrast in approaches which I couldn't really explain. If anything, it was more tonal, or at least more nuanced than simply not asking a question. It's that you seemed to assume flowr was town and went to some length to give him the

benefit of the doubt

in your early posts, (although you later claim you

did

actually want to pressure him). I didn't think you had a strong reason to take that line given Flowr's early play was scummy, and I feel more comfortable with those who were pinged by Flowr early, than those who jumped to his defence. But more importantly, in your posts immediately following that, you went to the other extreme, not giving people the

benefit of the doubt

and jumping on them quickly without any real substance or sense that you were trying to sort them. I'm going to have another look - it might just be worth you talking me through the logic of your subsequent approach so I can understand how/why it shifted so much in the space of a couple pages.

[Battle Mage]

VOTE: RLotus

lowkey scummiest so far

Can you say more about this? Because I had mild I-can't-justify-this-at-all gut pings from RLotus' early posts but I couldn't really put a finger on anything scummy about them so I didn't bring it up.

Think I covered this above!

[Battle Mage]

A page in the last hour? Damn it Balfruss, I wanted a nice plodding slow newbie!

I'll film my reaction to BM reacting to reactions in the thread soonish

I'd like to see this. If it's entertaining, I may film my reaction to your reaction to my reaction to the reactions in thread.

VOTE: RLotus

lowkey scummiest so far

Can I just confirm for sure this is not an OMGUS?

well I mean it was an OMGUS insofar as I voted for someone who voted for me. But I do have an actual reason.

[Battle Mage]

The inconsistency in Syryana's votes bothers me.

What bothers you about my voting pattern?

Pedit: Battle Mage, I think we're going to get along just fine.

I'm currently re-reading the thread over and over trying to figure something out. What bothered me is that you were quick to cross AD out your list from just one sentence which to me doesn't vibe as town.

Overall his participation in the thread doesn't give me any information and in the ned I don't understand his stand with flowr's case.

So as a direct question to AD - what is your read on flowr at the moment?

My state of mind is currently like this: My suspicion on AD is rising, while Syryana's are decreasing. However I am okay with AD's vote because another thing that "bothers" me is that Syryana and Battle Mage are sticking up for each other and I don't know why.

Do you think Syryana and I are scumpartners in this game? And we opened by being nice and chatty with each other? Seems unlikely to me!

It's probable, yes.

...

Sorry to be prodded, time flies. I'm still between AD, BlackMage and Syryana. If you have any particular questions I'll be happy to answer my opinion on them cuz atm I can't form a solid case.

Black Mage? FUck racism man...

Tell me why you think it's "probable" that Syryana and I are scum here?

[Battle Mage]

on the first 2 pages, my thoughts:

some townpoints to Syryana for moderately inconsistent and erratic voting
some scumpoints to manwithnoname for pointing out scummy open from flowr but not committing to a vote
some townpoints to AuroraDash for a good take on flowr (calling out scummy open as scummy)
more scumpoints to RLotus and Donkihott for possible whiteknighting of flowr. RLotus worse because it was more conspicuous, but Donkihott worse because it was sheeping RLotus.

going from top of page 3 now

I didn't actually vote Flowr either, so, why did you read MWNN differently from me?

You're right - I think I just read them slightly differently. If I remember rightly, you basically gave a brief comment to say it was scummy, whereas MWNN was more conspicuous in pointing out Flowr was scummy on a couple of occasions which made me feel that a vote would have been a more natural progression. Both fairly minor things, although you can have some more town points for pointing this out.

[Battle Mage]

RLotus deep dive:

47: Brushes over Flowr and appears to townread him (or at the very least doesn't scumread him), townreads MWNN and scumreads Syryana. Could be interpreted as a scum!RLotus rejecting the Flowr wagon as too soon and too obvious – doesn't want to draw unwanted attention to himself by being seen as sheeping more experienced players or pushing somebody to E-1 "too" quickly, which I saw someone get slammed for in my other game. From a town!RLotus perspective, his scumread on Syryana would have been sincere – he thought Syryana voting me and then swapping back to Flowr was scummier than anything Flowr did. Infers that Syryana has "some kind of reads behind it". Don't like this post.

48: Actually votes Syryana.

57: Accepts Syryana's explanation of his votes on me and Flowr, calling it a "good explanation". Clarifies the "some kind of reads" comment as meaning Syryana wasn't in RVS at the time and thus those votes are open to scrutiny. From a scum perspective, could be a way to pivot away from Syryana while leaving the option open to push him again at some later point.

58: Elaborates on his reasons for the Syryana vote then says he no longer scumreads him. Shows that he understood that the post Syryana scumread me for was about Flowr while Syryana thought it was about him, even though he just called Syryana's explanation good. Don't like this post either.

60: Makes a reasonable point about how town should also like to appear town, which I'm inclined to agree with. Wants to leave Flowr alone because pressing him had not produced a response and it might be more productive to press somebody else. Votes Pig with no reason given. From a town perspective, he would be looking to get information out of a quiet player based on BM's suggestion in post 51. As scum, this could be him looking for somebody new to wagon, while looking like he's actively hunting and thinking for himself to come up with reads. I think if he were doing that he'd at least try to justify the vote, so while this vote feels hella odd, I find this post somewhat towny anyway.

72: Asks Flowr a sensible question and likes his posts now that he'd come back from a prod. Seems lukewarm to mildly town on him. Calls BM "reluctant". Says that Pig is null to him despite voting him less than a day earlier, and implies that Pig's posts in the time in between didn't affect his reads. Fits nicely with the town motivation for that vote, him looking to put pressure on somebody new. From a scum perspective could be him realising he won't be able to effectively build a wagon on Pig.

82: Agrees with me and jumps on BM wagon. Doesn't come completely out of nowhere, given the "reluctant" comment not long before this, so maybe he was sincerely thinking the same thing as me and didn't think it worthwhile to elaborate. Post has an oddly enthusiastic tone compared to his earlier ones. A scum motivation could be trying to seem decisive while having just been given a reason to vote on a wagon he might have perceived as viable at the time.

102: Now townreads Syryana (who he implied was null to him in posts 58 and 60), Umlaut and myself while scumreading BM, MWNN (who he thought was town earlier in the game) and Pig (who he nullread just a little while ago). While his other posts kind of explain his updated Syryana read, the reasoning for the other changed reads is unclear. The obvious scum interpretation was that he lost track of his reads, but I don't think that's likely because the game hasn't been going on all that ong.

134: Explains the change in his playstyle as adapting in response to criticism, which makes sense as a newbie regardless of alignment, so that's probably true.

136: Explains the difference in his approach to Flowr and his approach to BM. His reasoning is more or less the same as what he said about Flowr in post 60, and that's nice and consistent which I guess could be seen as mildly towny.

(I excluded two early posts during RVS)

It doesn't cohere into a clear picture to me yet, but that's fair enough because we're still early in the game. While I think he's overall a bit scummier than average, null leaning a bit scum, a town!RLotus doesn't require any insane assumptions and I think it's still fairly likely. At this point I'd probably rather go for him over Syryana or BM, though. Want to look at some more things before voting anyone, though -- there's still plenty of time.

Good analysis. Objectively, I think it's a slightly generous assessment of RLotus, but I'm cool with townblocking you for today at least.

I'm also wondering if we should flip somebody quiet today just to get more activity?

[Battle Mage]

weekend v/la

[Battle Mage]

idk what i did to appear scummy but you guys are

really

going to regret this

why didn't you reply to my post 158 where I explained my view on why I find you scummy?

and why are you voting for me again?

[Battle Mage]

battle mage - townpings page 1, page 2

mwnm (i keep wanting to write brass ) - like that he's also liking battle mage (31)

I don't know which I enjoyed more - the fact Skitter is still using the MWNM acronym, or the fact MWNN is basically getting all his towncred from townreading me

good pro-town readslist though, a relief to see somebody thinking outside the box. I'm concerned about how static and stagnant this day has been.

[Battle Mage]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: donkihott

[Battle Mage]

Why are donkihott's reads (you, me, Balfruss scumreads/leans) more controversial than Pig's reads (me/Balfruss town)? I don't know that there's anything approaching a consensus on any players as yet. Excepting possibly MWNN.

Biggest one is 140 -- he said it was "probable" that you and BM were

both

scum at the same time, which struck me as a rather out-there statement.

Yeah that's some wild shade. But also, Donkihott seems to be posting elsewhere and avoiding this one.

[Battle Mage]

on the first 2 pages, my thoughts:

some townpoints to Syryana for moderately inconsistent and erratic voting
some scumpoints to manwithnoname for pointing out scummy open from flowr but not committing to a vote
some townpoints to AuroraDash for a good take on flowr (calling out scummy open as scummy)
more scumpoints to RLotus and Donkihott for possible whiteknighting of flowr. RLotus worse because it was more conspicuous, but Donkihott worse because it was sheeping RLotus.

going from top of page 3 now

I'm not whiteknighting neither sheeping. I am saying what my thoughts about flowr's post are based on my personal experience with the same exact thoughts.

The inconsistency in Syryana's votes bothers me.

What bothers you about my voting pattern?

Pedit: Battle Mage, I think we're going to get along just fine.

I'm currently re-reading the thread over and over trying to figure something out. What bothered me is that you were quick to cross AD out your list from just one sentence which to me doesn't vibe as town.

Overall his participation in the thread doesn't give me any information and in the ned I don't understand his stand with flowr's case.

So as a direct question to AD - what is your read on flowr at the moment?

My state of mind is currently like this: My suspicion on AD is rising, while Syryana's are decreasing. However I am okay with AD's vote because another thing that "bothers" me is that Syryana and Battle Mage are sticking up for each other and I don't know why.

Do you think Syryana and I are scumpartners in this game? And we opened by being nice and chatty with each other? Seems unlikely to me!

I'm inclined to agree on Syryana jumping off AD quite easily, especially given we now know he thought AD was attacking him, being noteworthy.

It's probable, yes.

...

Sorry to be prodded, time flies. I'm still between AD, BlackMage and Syryana.

If you have any particular questions I'll be happy to answer my opinion on them cuz

atm I can't form a solid case

.

yuck

[Battle Mage]

wrt syryana: i think he could have dropped his locktown on flowr upon my rep-in, and the fact that he's sticking with it so strongly is a bit +town imo as well

i think it's inconceivable that syryana could turn on you when you replaced in, regardless of alignment.

[Battle Mage]

Skitter, I honestly think MWNN's "I'm going to say I don't trust you and then sheep you in literally the same post" is so conspicuous that it shows a towny lack of self-consciousness.

yo Umlaut, you joining me on the donki?

[Battle Mage]

Skitter, I

honestly

think MWNN's "I'm going to say I don't trust you and then sheep you in literally the same post" is so conspicuous that it shows a towny lack of self-consciousness.

eh, reading this again, I don't love it.

[Battle Mage]

I basically think Skitter and Aurora are probably town.

And we should flip within Donkihott-Umlaut today.

RLotus is lean-scum, but clearly isn't happening today.

Everyone else sorta in the middle.

[Battle Mage]

yo Umlaut, you joining me on the donki?

What's the case in a nutshell?

he's lurking here whilst posting elsewhere.

he hasn't really said anything of great value.

he made a ridiculous assertion that I am "probably" scum with Syryana because we were cordial to each other.

he has said he can't make a case, and is just cruising waiting for people to ask him questions.

Not pro-town behaviour.

[Battle Mage]

SO far I don't have any strong or weak scum reads.

Honestly in the same place here, this game is tough to get into.

Actually I'm okay with flowr's statement of not wanting to go on a wagon since it is his first game and I had (have) some of these thoughts as well.

Couldn't have said it better. In hindsight, I guess the thing about quickhammering being a scumclaim should've reassured me about starting a wagon that early. I usually play in Meat World and lurk the wiki, and this is my first game. Was afraid of issuing a fake scumtell and somehow managed to make myself even more suspicious.

I find this believable but the fact that it's latching onto someone else's explanation makes it hard to give much town cred for it.

wrt syryana: i think he could have dropped his locktown on flowr upon my rep-in, and the fact that he's sticking with it so strongly is a bit +town imo as well

i think it's inconceivable that syryana could turn on you when you replaced in, regardless of alignment.

eh possibly
from what i saw upon repping in he could have dropped the read if convenient, but i wasn't in the game when he made those statements about my pred so i could be misjudging the gamestate on that particular bit

lol it's not that long a game, I promise you I would have noticed if he U-turned on that.

[Battle Mage]

i dont even know how i ended up quoting that top post

[Battle Mage]

he's lurking here whilst posting elsewhere.

This is actually a very good indicator in my experience, I caught the last scum in a recent game that way even though the game was a lurkfest in general. (To be fair it was a

really extreme difference

in that game)

Anyway it has to be better than the pretty-much-nothing I'm doing rn.

VOTE: donkihott

yeah, if nothing else it's self-preservation as we toddle lazily towards the deadline?

[Battle Mage]

I basically think Skitter and Aurora are probably town.

And we should flip within Donkihott-Umlaut today.

RLotus is lean-scum, but clearly isn't happening today.

Everyone else sorta in the middle.

I’m curious why you are more interested interested in flipping donki as opposed to umlaut? Would you be ok with either?

interested interested?

Yeah I'm ok with either, if we can't get a majority on Donki, then I'll move to Umlaut. Umlaut's ISO isn't great but he has said more than Donki.

[Battle Mage]

time for a claim Umlaut

[Battle Mage]

doesn't look like Donki is getting over the line today, and between Umlaut and Skitter it's an easy call.

VOTE: Umlaut

[Battle Mage]

I dont like this wagon at all and i think its time to make a decision, intent to hammer umlaut

eh, intent to hammer? he wasn't even at -1.

[Battle Mage]

intent to hammer

yes i get it. why aren't you just hammering though?

UNVOTE:

i'll finish my catch up first

[Battle Mage]

Forwhy

Feels too easy almost ...

This doesn't look like a real reason. And for someone with cold feet you sure didn't move your vote off of me.

it could be a genuine view - I get that vibe all the time about stagnant wagons which teeter close to an elim. although agree not moving the vote is an odd one.

[Battle Mage]

I was just coming around to the idea of flipping umlaut over donki, mainly bc the people leading this feel townier.

can you please explain this, with reference to those on the wagon at the time?

[Battle Mage]

i'm actually p confident on town!donkihott and have next to no interest in limming there any time soon

uh why?

[Battle Mage]

Ok, if I die tonight flip between RLotus and Donki tomorrow.

Syryana, can you get back on board so I can hammer?

[Battle Mage]

I was just coming around to the idea of flipping umlaut over donki, mainly bc the people leading this feel townier.

can you please explain this, with reference to those on the wagon at the time?

AD, Skitter, and Syryana are my exact town circle who were all on the Umlaut wagon. You and Umlaut were on donki, and I'm unsure of both of you. Other than, umlaut and donki are both fine options to me so i chose umlaut.

good answer

[Battle Mage]

Ok, if I die tonight flip between RLotus and Donki tomorrow.

Syryana, can you get back on board so I can hammer?

How dare you! I could also get back on board.

I'm insulted.

actually i forgot how many people unvoted. Last call for Donki?

[Battle Mage]

all it took was an impending deadline to bring this game to life!

[Battle Mage]

if i miss the hammer while im eating dinner, im gonna be pissed

[Battle Mage]

STOP!!!

[Battle Mage]

Hammah time


=================[[[[[[[[]]]]]]]

VOTE: Umlaut

[Battle Mage]

Hammah time


=================[[[[[[[[]]]]]]]

That's a hammer?
[[[[[[[[[]]]]]]]
[[[[[[[[[]]]]]]]
==================[[[[[[[[[]]]]]]]
[[[[[[[[[]]]]]]]
[[[[[[[[[]]]]]]]


THAT'S A HAMMER

unnecessarily lewd

[Battle Mage]

Sigh

This is really my own fault for being so low-energy so I'm not going to complain about it. Good luck town, look closely at the votes on my wagon.

Actually, yeah, I think Balfruss's is more of an aerial view penis

[Battle Mage]

Sigh

This is really my own fault for being so low-energy so I'm not going to complain about it. Good luck town, look closely at the votes on my wagon.

no slow roll?

[Battle Mage]

I'm already at E-2 and I can't say it any clearer than this, I'm the town doctor. Don't eliminate me while I'm in court today please.

oh man...a Doc claim at -2? I'm not countering, and I think everyone has posted since, other than Syryana. Although a scum fakeclaim here would be mad.

[Battle Mage]

Let's say provisionally, Town: Manwithnoclaim, skitter, AuroraDash

means 2 scum within: donkihott, AGamblingPig and Syryana

even with both PRs basically dead, this feels like a winnable game.

Can everyone give their current reads in some kind of basic list format? town-scum with reasons.

[Battle Mage]

Tonight will be my one correct guess on the night kill and its someone I can't protect anyway.

lol i'm glad you protected me dude

Spoiler:

but next time, claimed PR

[Battle Mage]

idk what i did to appear scummy but you guys are

really

going to regret this

Please don't imply you're a power role. It's unhelpful to anyone. Claim or get off the pot.

Losing a Tracker feels terrible

and the above post feels fishy.

VOTE: Syryana

Skitts, you know better than to think I'm scum. Come on

But mwnn's post feels inadequate, not contributing not even trying to. When I re-read his posts it seems like he talks bs most of the time and says nothing.

"losing a tracker feels terrible"? too much emotive LAMIST VOTE: donkihott

[Battle Mage]

From my POV your claim is trustworthy because you are SE

fwiw i don't think claims should be trustworthy inherently because they come from an se

no kidding! Also I hadn't noticed the crumb

[Battle Mage]

I feel like donkihott and Syryana is my best guess.

how come?

I like the idea of flipping donki and then working out the most likely partner

[Battle Mage]

I saw that too just thought it was bullshit tbh

i can sympathise with this, i also wasn't convinced.

[Battle Mage]

Vote Count 1-11

The Sea People were beaten back and their fleet decimated. This failed invasion didn't spark the beginning of the first Dark Age. It was a symptom.

Umlaut

(5): skitter30, AuroraDash, RLotus, ManWithNoName, Battle Mage

skitter30

(2): AGamblingPig, Umlaut

Syryana

(1): donkihott

Not Voting

(1): Syryana

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to eliminate.

Deadline: November 17, Midnight US Eastern Time.

Countdown: (expired on 2020-11-17 21:00:00)

Mod Notes:

-

An Elimination has been Achieved!

but if my solve is right with those 3, no scum on the final wagon yesterday? eh...

[Battle Mage]

I feel like donkihott and Syryana is my best guess.

how come?

I like the idea of flipping donki and then working out the most likely partner

Both have been pinging me a bit as scummy, and everyone else has given me some reasons to think they were town at some points.

what's the towncase for Pig? I was leaning slightly more towards a Donki-Pig team

[Battle Mage]

From my POV your claim is trustworthy because you are SE

fwiw i don't think claims should be trustworthy inherently because they come from an se

no kidding! Also I hadn't noticed the crumb

i mean i know that
you know that
i wanna make sure everyone knows that

[Battle Mage]

Let's say provisionally, Town: Manwithnoclaim, skitter, AuroraDash

means 2 scum within: donkihott, AGamblingPig and Syryana

even with both PRs basically dead, this feels like a winnable game.

Can everyone give their current reads in some kind of basic list format? town-scum with reasons.

i wanna replace auroradash with you
i'm not *positive* i feel comfortable taking aurora out of the pool

but yeah the pool isn't that big so while we're not *quite* on auto we can just work through that pool

i still feel p good about donki tbh :/

remind me why you feel good about Donki? and how do you rank Pig vs Syryana?

[Battle Mage]

cattlemage? fking hilarious...

[Battle Mage]

Tonight will be my one correct guess on the night kill and its someone I can't protect anyway.

What do you mean? I think you will be the NK.

even with both PRs basically dead,

this feels like a winnable game.

LAMIST much?

I don't think that's really LAMIST - it's too low key, although obviously I could talk from a town perspective even if I was scum, so I'm gonna say NAI. Unlike your over-dramatic mourning of the loss of the tracker (which is more in typical scumtell territory).

Tonight will be my one correct guess on the night kill and its someone I can't protect anyway.

lol i'm glad you protected me dude

Spoiler:

but next time, claimed PR

LAMIST much?

Definitely not LAMIST. What does the fact he protected me have to do with me looking town?

idk what i did to appear scummy but you guys are

really

going to regret this

Please don't imply you're a power role. It's unhelpful to anyone. Claim or get off the pot.

Losing a Tracker feels terrible

and the above post feels fishy.

VOTE: Syryana

Skitts, you know better than to think I'm scum. Come on

But mwnn's post feels inadequate, not contributing not even trying to. When I re-read his posts it seems like he talks bs most of the time and says nothing.

"losing a tracker feels terrible"? too much emotive LAMIST VOTE: donkihott

Yes it does, you wan't me to say that its okay? Maybe you want me to say that losing the doctor is also good (wait you already almost did that). Also I have no idea how you link me with Syryana and/or Pig, your 10 one liner posts are not convincing me.

VOTE: CattleMage

I think you're on the ropes here. Just basic OMGUS, and given the defensiveness above, maybe I'm right about your partner too.

[Battle Mage]

My buddy Balfruss seems to have left us all.

When you're down and troubled
And you need some love and care
And nothing, nothing is going right
Close your eyes and think of me
And soon I will be there
To brighten up even your darkest night
You just call out my name
And you know wherever I am
I'll come running, to see you again
Winter, spring, summer or fall
All you have to do is call
And I'll be there
You've got a friend

[Battle Mage]

sorry bud, i was pretty busy all weekend so hadn't been very mafia focussed! i'm back now, comments shortly

[Battle Mage]

Okay, quickly, as my head is not terrible right now, but it's still hurting.

Basically, the town block of AD, BM, Skitter, and myself means that 3 people are in the scum pool, so, really, if we elim in the pool of donkihott, Syryana and the other one, then it doesn't matter to me what order we do it in.

yeah i basically agree with this.

[Battle Mage]

the fact Donki and Pig havent even bothered to vote for each other makes me think it's probably just them 2?

[Battle Mage]

@Balfruss, tomorrow do we just want to go onto the Pig, then?

We can give Syryana a chance to give a catch up to show that maybe she is town, then.

yeah sounds good to me - let's hear what Syryana says first.

[Battle Mage]

my thoughts will follow tonight or tomorrow at latest.

try not to end the game before then.

quick notes:

I still think it's most likely Donki-Syryana
Post 425 was horrible
I also think Syryana-Skitter is a possibility for same reason AD described above, but the way Syryana has over-sold it makes it unlikely.
I don't see Skitter being scum with anybody else, because nobody else really picked up the point Syryana and I made about the early vanilla slip, meaning it's unlikely to be fake unless Skitter is paired with Syryana (or me I guess). But Skitter-scum unlikely overall anyway, and definitely not the play today.
We need to be thinking about combinations today because we need 2 consecutive scum-elims.
I need to reread AD to confirm my Donki-Syryana solve.

[Battle Mage]

I still think it's most likely Donki-Syryana
Post 425 was horrible
I also think Syryana-Skitter is a possibility for same reason AD described above, but the way Syryana has over-sold it makes it unlikely.
I don't see Skitter being scum with anybody else, because nobody else really picked up the point Syryana and I made about the early vanilla slip, meaning it's unlikely to be fake unless Skitter is paired with Syryana (or me I guess). But Skitter-scum unlikely overall anyway, and definitely not the play today.
We need to be thinking about combinations today because we need 2 consecutive scum-elims.
I need to reread AD to confirm my Donki-Syryana solve.

This is the cliff notes of the attack I was expecting from AD.

I would also like to point out that this is the first time you have referenced the vanilla slip in any way this game, so claiming the point for yourself is a

blatant lie

.

In spoiler tags, are the half dozen or so occasions where I subtly referred to the Flowr vanilla crumb...recognising it as slightly town indicative,

without going overboard and saying it made them conftown

,

nor drawing attention to it obviously in the event she was town

. The last is the most interesting because I literally referenced the vanilla crumb in a direct response to you. Difficult to believe you genuinely missed it, and I think you're over-egging it with your line in bold above.

Perhaps some more pertinent questions:

Do you expect to get towncred for spotting the vanilla crumb? Given we lost PRs who had crumbed or claimed on both nights, this doesn't give either of us any "points" as you put it.
Because it doesn't actually matter, in alignment terms, whether I had noticed the vanilla crumb - why do you suggest I would pretend to have noticed it if I was scum? What's the motive for me to lie? It's all well and good falsely claiming I lied, but there's no incentive for me to lie there even if I was scum, so why would I bother?

This doesn't strike me as a genuine attempt to sort my slot. I think you came into today with the clear idea of selling Donki and Skitter on the idea of me and AD being scum - you've been going OTT on buddying the Skitter-slot since Day 1

and you quick-hammered Pig yesterday, saving Donki, without giving anyone the chance to ask you questions about your reads.

In said post, ironically, you threw shade at me for "quick-hammering" on the previous day (presumably to cover yourself for doing so?), however I don't recall I did quickhammer - the day had run it's course and no further discussion was expected.

More analysis in the morning, but I did want to set the record straight on a couple of misreps before i hit the hay.

Spoiler:

eh UNVOTE:

While I still don't feel good about flowr, it feels a bit too easy. I don't have anyone else to pressure right now, but do I really believe we caught scum on the first page?

SO far I don't have any strong or weak scum reads.

I am liking what BM and Syryana are saying in terms of townliness.

Be careful not to equate an SE being helpful to the newbies to an SE being town.

Unless it's me

, then, feel free to always think I'm town because I'm just awesome.

somebody jealous?

it's possible to catch scum on first page! But i'm surprised you didn't feel good about flowr at this point, and continuing to push from the sidelines.

UNVOTE:

Yeah I agree with the principle here, I too was interested in seeing how flowrs reacted. But, the game has practically revolved around him and still no response. So,

VOTE: AGamblingPig

Has flowr's response done anything for you? What about Pig's?

I am liking what BM and Syryana are saying in terms of townliness.

What in particular do you find towny about myself and BM?

Actually I'm okay with flowr's statement of not wanting to go on a wagon since it is his first game and I had (have) some of these thoughts as well.

Couldn't have said it better. In hindsight, I guess the thing about quickhammering being a scumclaim should've reassured me about starting a wagon that early. I usually play in Meat World and lurk the wiki, and this is my first game. Was afraid of issuing a fake scumtell and somehow managed to make myself even more suspicious.

Do you play/have you played a lot of F2F mafia?

Actually I'm okay with flowr's statement of not wanting to go on a wagon since it is his first game and I had (have) some of these thoughts as well.

Couldn't have said it better. In hindsight, I guess the thing about quickhammering being a scumclaim should've reassured me about starting a wagon that early. I usually play in Meat World and lurk the wiki, and this is my first game. Was afraid of issuing a fake scumtell and somehow managed to make myself even more suspicious.

I find this believable but the fact that it's latching onto someone else's explanation makes it hard to give much town cred for it.

Interestingly, that post you quoted makes flowr damn near locktown. I'm not explaining why right this second because ~reasons~, though. I have interrogations to conduct first~

I like the questions, but not convinced on the last bit. I thought we were on the same page with flowr, and we agree on the read, but apparently for different reasons and you have a much higher level of confidence. To discuss later.

Flower's original posting was pretty weak but the wagon built a little too fast on it. At the same time, the recovery seems a little bit too experienced for someone who's saying this is their first game.

I don't think "the wagon built too fast" is much of a basis for anything here. Firstly, I have seen scum wagoned early--not literally

as

often as town, but at least as often as you would expect of a random selection if not more. Secondly, the wagon broke down at least as fast as it built up.

I agree at this point -- the whole case against Flowr comes down to two awkward looking posts way back on page 1. It was worth bringing up at the time because it was the first vaguely interesting thing that happened, but it was really weak evidence to begin with and now the game's moved on and in my eyes Flowr is back to null.

I disagree on two counts. I think it was moderate evidence, and I think Flowr is a townlean as a result of that interaction which is something positive.

[/quote]

[Battle Mage]

i said the last above, but it was actually the penultimate spoiler quote. you get the idea.

[Battle Mage]

In spoiler tags, are the half dozen or so occasions where I subtly referred to the Flowr vanilla crumb...recognising it as slightly town indicative,

without going overboard and saying it made them conftown

,

nor drawing attention to it obviously in the event she was town

. The last is the most interesting because I literally referenced the vanilla crumb in a direct response to you. Difficult to believe you genuinely missed it, and I think you're over-egging it with your line in bold above.

1. I over-egg just about everything. It's a playstyle thing. Rhinos on plastic chairs, etc.
2. I took your response to mine as an indication you did NOT see the slip, because I worked on the assumption that whoever saw that slip from someone who'd just been wagoned for being overly awkward would justify more than a townlean on the slot. The way the logic in my head went something like "I saw the slip and am reading flowr as town. Balfruss says he agrees with the read but not the reasons. Therefore Balfruss is townleaning flowr for reasons other than the slip."

I can understand how you might misinterpret that. But to be clear - in retrospect, we had the same reasons, but you consider it a much stronger alignment indicator than I do. I don't think the vanilla crumb makes Skitter 100% conftown by any means.

Spoiler:

Although in the current situation with 2 mis-elims already, I'm probably resigned to eating the loss if Skitter is scum here.

The rationale for it being a townlean, is that it would be an odd gambit for scum to make, when scum usually prefer to leave the door open for a power role claim, and it read as being quite genuine. My problem with your approach is two-fold:

1. I don't think you would actually believe the flowr crumb to be as strong a towntell as you purported, as you are an experienced player, and you over-sold it. Your only possible motive for doing so (because flowr was no longer under significant pressure at that stage) was to buddy Flowr and then Skitter.

2. Because flowr (and then Skitter) were never at risk of being eliminated following the initial wagon, there was no pro-town reason for you continually drawing attention to the vanilla crumb in such a blatant way. If you and skitter were both town, all you were achieving was making it easier for scum to pick off our power roles by highlighting that she wasn't one and narrowing the pool.

Do you expect to get towncred for spotting the vanilla crumb? Given we lost PRs who had crumbed or claimed on both nights, this doesn't give either of us any "points" as you put it.
Because it doesn't actually matter, in alignment terms, whether I had noticed the vanilla crumb - why do you suggest I would pretend to have noticed it if I was scum? What's the motive for me to lie? It's all well and good falsely claiming I lied, but there's no incentive for me to lie there even if I was scum, so why would I bother?

I have no idea why you would lie in this scenario. However given that I couldn't find anything in your ISO that indicated you'd seen the slip (the only concrete thing you linked in your spoiler being 116 which I've explained, the rest indicates you had a townlean on flowr but no indication of why), you must have lied, there must be a reason.

As above - I didn't "lie", and your continued use of that word, even when I've proven that a) I told the truth and b) there wouldn't be any reason for me to lie even if I was scum. I made a conscious effort NOT to draw attention to the claim (because I didn't want to give scum more information), whilst also making it clear enough that I thought the slot was town. That's just common sense townplay. And I think, if you were really trying to solve my slot, you'd have worked out that I had spotted it too because why else would I suddenly have changed my approach on flowr? And perhaps more importantly, if you did think that, why did you wait until Day 3 to ask me about it, when it happened on Day 1?

It's easier for me to believe you're scum here, looking for something simple and superficial to get the final mis-elim you need to win, than you are town who was suspicious of me on Day 1 for something which you admit doesn't even suggest I'm scum, but waited 2 day-night phases to attack me for it.

This doesn't strike me as a genuine attempt to sort my slot.

I think you came into today with the clear idea of selling Donki and Skitter on the idea of me and AD being scum

- you've been going OTT on buddying the Skitter-slot since Day 1 and you quick-hammered Pig yesterday, saving Donki, without giving anyone the chance to ask you questions about your reads. In said post, ironically, you threw shade at me for "quick-hammering" on the previous day (presumably to cover yourself for doing so?), however I don't recall I did quickhammer - the day had run it's course and no further discussion was expected.

You're absolutely right about me not attempting to sort your slot. I don't have to. I'm townreading skitter and donki. That makes it you and Aurora by default.

This makes things slightly easier, as if you're town here we lose anyway because you are deadset on your townreads (one of which would have to be wrong). For the benefit of newbies, I think it's always best to enter ExLo with an open mind. I've lost far more games than I've won in this situation due to 1 town player jumping the gun and basically deciding the game based on their reads. So I have to assume you're scum to have a chance of winning.

If I'm scum, from your POV, I'm scum with donki as you've been scumreading him since forever.

Yes - I was very clear about that being my most likely solve yesterday. I'm not certain of it, but it doesn't really matter now.

I don't have to sell him on a damn thing in this scenario; we're already partners and all I have to do is wheedle skitter into voting anyone that isn't me (she already townreads donki) and we quickhammer and win the game. Selling the both of them on anything implies both are town, which means my partner then has to be Aurora, which doesn't make any sense whatever for scum!me because I'm now pushing him as part of a team with you. Makes sense this does not. Scum you are. Mm.

That's incorrect. Mathematically speaking, there are 5 players left: 3 town, 2 scum. You can't be scum with both Donki and Skitter. But you only need 3 votes for a majority, so 1 of them being scum doesn't preclude you getting a decisive mis-elim today. My point was, and remains, there is a major contrast between how you played today vs yesterday:

Day 2: Syryana is absent for entire dayphase. Everyone literally waits for Syryana to show up. Syryana arrives and quickhammers town in 1 post, without giving anyone any chance to talk to him about his reads.

Day 3: Syryana comes out all guns blazing, with no sense of good-faith objectivity or uncertainty - already clear that he will push AD and BM as the team. In doing so, he relies on Donki who clearly isn't my biggest fan, and who he saved yesterday, and Skitter who he has been white-knighting since Day 1.

[Battle Mage]

soooooooo i was just coming around to pig being town when he was hammered

i think battle mage is town but after that i'm kinda at a loss

also as it's elo, plz no votes till we're ready to end the day

How are you always voting for someone but thinking they are town?

is it bad that

donki is probably my strongest tr rn?

oh man, that progression

[Battle Mage]

so i have a few problems:

1. out of everyone still alive, i think i townread you the least

2. i think you mgiht be trying to buddy and/or pocket me

3. i'm not sure you actually townread donki, so much as you see me townreading donki and decided to mold your stated reads to mine

4. your solve just feels like a somewhat unsatisfactory poe ... like you don't have 'room' so to speak to scumread me (or donki) and so by virtue of that your solve has to be the other two , but as far as i can tell you don't have much reason to scumread either outside of poe

this resonates with my own conclusions though, and makes me feel happier with Skitter-town. And basically there's no reason for Skitter-scum not to just go along with Syryana.

[Battle Mage]

2. i think you mgiht be trying to buddy and/or pocket me

I already explained why I have you as town. I'm not really sure what trying to pocket you at this point does for scum!me given I have to remove you from my elim pool to do it, which is basically what I did yesterDay. As it seems I'm the only one that noticed the townslip from flowr, it's way more in my best interest to just sweep it under the rug and keep my options open. I'm aware this is all WIFOM, but, eh.

Just want to point out, this is not true. Scum-Syryana would clearly be better off continuing to pocket Skitter for 2 reasons:

1. As I think I noted on Day 2, it would look very weird for Syryana to U-turn on that, given his earlier absolute certainty that flowr hinting at being vanilla implied Skitter-town.
2. Syryana-scum only needs 1 mis-elim, and only needs 1 townie to be wrong to orchestrate that. Having a wider elim pool serves no purpose for scum, which is why coming into today with a narrow pool is objectively scummy.

3. i'm not sure you actually townread donki, so much as you see me townreading donki and decided to mold your stated reads to mine

I mean, I wasn't really townreading him until he made that snarky post at Battle Mage. Fair enough that I didn't comment on it until after you did, but such is life in forum mafia. Let me ask you this, though. Let's say I'm buddying the hell out of you, and faking my donki read as part of that. What does that get me? I pocket you, sure, but then I'd have to persuade you to vote the remaining townie to win today, or failing that, bus the shit out of my partner and then I'm in a losing 3P ELLO tomorrow no matter who I shoot. I shoot you, I wasted all that pocket time.

It's perfectly plausible that you would try to win the game in this dayphase if you could, and if not, set up the ideal 3 player showdown. It's ridiculous to describe that as some terrible mafia strategy. I won't break down the permutations as I don't want to give scum any more help than we already have, but others can simulate it for themselves and see that even if we flipped Syryana's hypothetical scum-partner today, Syryana-scum can still win.

4. your solve just feels like a somewhat unsatisfactory poe ... like you don't have 'room' so to speak to scumread me (or donki) and so by virtue of that your solve has to be the other two , but as far as i can tell you don't have much reason to scumread either outside of poe

I hate this expression, but it is what it is. I think you and donki are town. I'm town. Ergo BM and Aurora are scum. I guess what it boils down to at the end of the day is why the hell would I, as scum, hard limit myself to a potential elimpool of 2, particularly when one of the two I'm removing is only being townread by you?

I think the bigger question is why you would limit yourself to an elimpool of 2 if you were town? Because it guarantees town loses unless you are right, prejudices any discussion or engagement during Day 3, and by saying you won't re-evaluate your reads, you give scum maximum opportunity to pick the optimal kill to close out the game. Although it's quite clear you haven't wanted to actually engage or re-consider your reads more than you had to since Day 1, so maybe it doesn't surprise - although you haven't had a flawless record so far (none of us have!).

[Battle Mage]

I got about 5 scumgames in a row back in ~2018 and it just demoralized the hell out of me. Quit mafia because of it, until about 3 months ago.

I hard latched onto donki's 367 because in the 8 years I've on and off played mafia I have never seen scum, on being attacked by town, respond with "neener neener neener I'll throw your shitty argument back in your teeth and make fun of you".

"shitty argument"?

counter-point: I have seen, on dozens of occasions, scum respond to a valid attack from town by accusing them of the same thing back (which is actually what happened here). This is not a good argument for Donki-town.

[Battle Mage]

I did promise to come back to the post below, but there isn't really much else to say. What stands out to me:

1. Nearly half the post is about Skitter being town. Which Syryana has been pushing for most of the game (and on reflection, not really saying much else). Of course, nobody else has really been pushing Skitter as scum, so this isn't a particularly useful or controversial take. Nonetheless, arguing Skitter is actually confirmed-town as a result of her predecessor crumbing vanilla, stretches credulity to the limit.
2. The most likely motive (besides just buddying Skitter) for Syryana to adopt this line, is because Syryana is promoting the idea that spotting Skitter's predecessors vanilla crumb makes him more likely to be town. It doesn't. It literally just means he is an experienced player who can read. However, he subsequently seemed to find it problematic when I pointed out I had also spotted the vanilla crumb, when he has already committed fully to a BM-AD solve.
3. His reason for townreading Donki is casual, off-hand and ultimately weak. He argues Donki is town because he has not shaped a narrative, and been more reactive. To me, that's classic newbscum behaviour. Not trying to pro-actively scumhunt, just attacking those who attack you. Syryana latches on to the minimum amount of information to form an absolutely certain read, which again is actually in line with the majority consensus (given I'm the only player left alive who wanted to elim Donki yesterday).

In other words, Syryana's play is consistent with scum pursuing the path of least resistance to a whitewash victory.

4. As noted previously, throwing shade at me for quickhammering, when I didn't, whilst actually quickhammering himself in that same post, just seems defensive - it makes more sense as somebody who knows they are quickhammering and has already decided that they will try and get a mis-elim on me tomorrow.
5. I just think Syryana-town, as an SE, would be more willing to engage in discussion having missed the whole day-phase. Coming in to quickhammer town, not a good look (especially if, as I suspect, Donki is scum, and was also at L-1).

Right then, here's where I'm at.

AGamblingPig and one of {Battle Mage, AuroraDash}.

We have skitter, donki, MWNN, Battle Mage, AD, myself. MWNN claimed doc. No counterclaim, no friendly neighbor claim, he's probably the doctor. If he's for some reason not dead tomorrow, please revisit this. However for today I'm happy calling him town.

MWNN doctor clears skitter. Here's why:

. I get that mafia tend to be more self conscious about what they say and you can make reads based on that, but why wouldn't town care about how they are perceived? If towns can all read each other town you can deduce the mafia by poe. By my estimation, projecting town is the second most important thing town can do, other than finding scum.

I'm just piggybacking off of other people's defenses of me, but that's what I was concerned about. I don't want to eat an elimination if I can afford it as Town.

I'm okay with eating a night-kill and keeping a power-role alive instead

, but other than that, my best interest is to look "Town" because to me, I'm the only person that's confirmed. It was counterintuitive, but the intention is there.

Remember this post? The bolded is a townslip. The bolded is an implied claim of vanilla townie; flowr is only fine dying if she can essentially, by being obv-town enough, redirect the nightkill away from a power role. If flowr's death would keep a power role alive then she is in fact vanilla town. This was confirmed when MWNN claimed; RLotus is dead and there are no more power roles in this setup. I didn't want to out this information because it narrowed the field for scum to find the actual PRs but with both outed or dead there's little purpose keeping this under my hat. There are potential scenarios where scum faked that townslip but given flowr had an awkward entrance and it's a hell of a subtle thing to fake (I can count on one hand the number of players I know capable of doing that) so I'm treating skitter as an IC for all intents and purposes. Congrats on your elevation, skitter!

Right then, donkihott. Pretty sure he's town too. Skitter made an excellent couple of posts on why he's town so I'm just going to

steal

link them here: 290, 380. Donki, while he has some fairly out there ideas, has shown no scum motivation. He's not shaping a narrative. He's reactive, he's definitely got some kind of story in his head that he believes but he's not pushing everyone else to accept it. That response to Balfruss was town as fuck; no scum being attacked responds with that kind of snarky asshattery. Not in that way. Town.

That leaves us with Pig, Battle Mage, and AuroraDash.

Let's get Pig out of the way. He's scum. He hasn't tried to get any information, he hasn't engaged anyone beyond that snipe at RLotus in an attempt to get an explicit claim. I had to beat him with a stick to get him to say why he thought Battle Mage and I were town and he evaded and eventually retracted the read. There's just nothing there and I'm pretty sure this isn't Pig's towngame.

That leaves AuroraDash and Battle Mage. Who's the partner to Pig? Was it Battle Mage, the semi-trolly quickhammerer of Umlaut? Was it AuroraDash, he of the lengthy, sinisterly well-crafted posts? Find out next time on Dragon Ball Z!!!!!!



And with that, my friends, I bid you adieu. Oh, and:



VOTE: AGamblingPig

[Battle Mage]

To your main point: one of the main things i am indeed puzzling over is why scum!you would be limiting your pool so severely, i'm not sure i see the scum motivation for that tbh, and that's why i'm not like super hard committed to a scumread of you just atm
(And i have a vague impression that you have a p good scumgame too?)

At the same time the way you came to that severely limiting poe doesnt feel super natural to me

So i'm like trying to sort through that and i need to mull it over some more

Skitter, please read my posts above, and re-think this.

There is no reason for Syryana-town to limit his pool to 2 because it effectively locks the game into his solve being right, or he loses (and this, without any previous discussion of his reads since Day 1). There is every reason for Syryana-scum to limit his pool to 2, because he only needs 1 mis-elim, only needs 1 town player to screw up to get a majority and he wouldn't want to alienate other players by having a wider pool. It seems fairly obvious to me that he has been buddying you throughout the game, and could even be doing the same to Donki.

[Battle Mage]

if we actually lose this game to a Syryana-Donki scumteam I'm gonna be cheesed off...

[Battle Mage]

I will take skitter completely out of scum list to try and build some logic, then will add him and see what changes.

BM wants to kill Me and Syryana so the chance of them being duo lowers.
Syryana wants to kill AD and BM so again the chance of BM and Syryana being duo should lower.
Unless this is what they want us to think that and ppl to miselim me or AD and its gg.

Syryana is for some reason defending me and BM is trying to push his narrative.

I do actually like this, reads like genuine confusion from looking at the permutations.

So if I'm right and I catched the duo Syryana and BM on page 1, I would'd love to kill BM.

Hold on, if Syryana and I were scum, you'd love to kill BM, but not Syryana? Why is that?

Syryana if you are trying to get on my good side, as AD said, it is not going to work. I'm way more cautious now and won't trust anyone completely.

did Syryana tell you to do a bit of distancing from him today just in case? If you're town, this is a good mindset though.

[Battle Mage]

1. out of everyone still alive, i think i townread you the least

I would like to quote this for future reference when Aurora posts his Syr/donki scumteam wall.

Because I'm pretty sure that's what he's gonna post now you've said it.

I mean presumably that's what you HOPE happens, because Syryana-scum would want it to be:

BM + AD vs Syryana + Donki + Skitter

[Battle Mage]

It's at least a little bit interesting that, after AD declares Syryana can't be scum with Skitter because they had a discussion in thread, Syryana immediately tries to start a dialogue with Donki:

I will take skitter completely out of scum list to try and build some logic, then will add him and see what changes.

BM wants to kill Me and Syryana so the chance of them being duo lowers.
Syryana wants to kill AD and BM so again the chance of BM and Syryana being duo should lower.
Unless this is what they want us to think that and ppl to miselim me or AD and its gg.

Syryana is for some reason defending me and BM is trying to push his narrative.

So if I'm right and I catched the duo Syryana and BM on page 1, I would'd love to kill BM.

But if i'm not right and we consider skitter being the scum or ad being scum I'm not sure who is the probable partner. Syryana maybe?
What about skitter/ad duo, that is something that I don't want to even think about since my head already hurts.

Syryana if you are trying to get on my good side, as AD said, it is not going to work. I'm way more cautious now and won't trust anyone completely.

As I said, skitter's not scum. Just doesn't make sense with any of the living people. +slip.
I'm sort of curious how you "caught" me and BM on page 1?
Also, you're going to have to either trust me or kill me at some point. The way this is going, it's going to be you/me/whichever of BM/AD we don't kill today in ELLO tomorrow.

By the way I've been thinking of a situation where 2 ppl vote for someone and he is not hammered, this will mean that we have found the 2 scum at once right? So I was thinking if you are scum you would preserve your vote so you avoid that. So I was also thinking of voting for the most suscpicious one and wait too see the votes and unvote if necessary to avoid quickhammer and catch at least 1 scum, since if I vote for scum, the other scum won't vote so it is a scum and if I vote for town the other scum will vote.

This is a bad idea. The scum have their own private topic that allow them to talk to each other. If even one person votes a townie right now, scum can coordinate a quickhammer in their PT and both can vote for that person before you could so much as refresh the page. At best this approach tells us who one of the scum is, not both.

[Battle Mage]

So I did a quick ISO on Donki. His first 5 posts in spoilers below. The common denominator? They are all pre-occupied with Syryana. Including an obligatory distancing random-vote (classic newbscum move), and a weird awkward interaction about whether they knew each other before the game or not, which I'd actually forgotten about.

Spoiler:

VOTE: donkihott

OMGUS.

Do you like Tayl0r Swift? I don't. We may get along

@Syryana No we don't know each other its my second game here, I'm not sure if its against the rules to speak about my first game since its still ongoing. It was a fail from me though, I lasted pretty long though

this is the most skittish start to a newbie game i can remember. is putting somebody at 2/3 votes on page 2 really that scary?

It is when someone goes on E-1 and someone (like me) hammer without a notice.

The inconsistency in Syryana's votes bothers me. Actually I'm okay with flowr's statement of not wanting to go on a wagon since it is his first game and I had (have) some of these thoughts as well.

Why'd you ask me about Tayl0r then?

What's your beef with Taylor?

Don't worry about it, in a couple of days I will be probably able to tell you. But it doesn't matter it was just a joke I was trying to set up for the chat and it is not serious at all. I was actually pretty impressed by her average of 50 posts per day.

The inconsistency in Syryana's votes bothers me.

What bothers you about my voting pattern?

Pedit: Battle Mage, I think we're going to get along just fine.

I'm currently re-reading the thread over and over trying to figure something out. What bothered me is that you were quick to cross AD out your list from just one sentence which to me doesn't vibe as town.

Overall his participation in the thread doesn't give me any information and in the ned I don't understand his stand with flowr's case.

So as a direct question to AD - what is your read on flowr at the moment?

My state of mind is currently like this: My suspicion on AD is rising, while Syryana's are decreasing. However I am okay with AD's vote because another thing that "bothers" me is that Syryana and Battle Mage are sticking up for each other and I don't know why.

I'm going after the big fish..
VOTE: Syryana

[Battle Mage]

Hello! It's 1 in the morning RN so I don't have time to really skim the thread, but I thought I'd like to give a few pointers on myself anyways. I don't really see myself as a good player - far from it, actually. I even made a thread asking if everyone was really as bad as they said they were. Everyone else just...felt like they actually knew what to do and I didn't. So if you could give me a few guiding pointers on what to do, that would help a lot.

- Jumble

hey and welcome!

A quick summary of where we are:

2 scum left, town need to eliminate scum correctly today and tomorrow to win.
I am town, Skitter is probably town (because her predecessor crumbed vanilla town for no reason very early which wouldn't make much sense as scum), you are more likely town than not (because your predecessor just seemed like she was really trying and didn't do anything particularly scummy).
It's probably Syryana and Donkihott who are scum based on their interaction and individual play. Manwithnoname (the other SE) also thought this was the correct pair.
Syryana is convinced the correct pair is you and me, which means if Syryana is town we probably lose anyway (because I'm town), and we basically have no choice but to elim Syryana.

So if you're town you basically have to eliminate Syryana today to have a chance of winning (regardless of my alignment). If you're scum, you're probably winning whatever you do.

Time to take the plunge!

VOTE: Syryana

[Battle Mage]

Look, I get that you really want to vote Syryana off, and while I do agree that the d2 hammer was a bad move and the skitter crumb more or less clears them, can you please at least give me a chance to form an opinion before forcing one on me?

*shrug*

you literally asked for pointers, I helpfully obliged by explaining the gamestate.

Also to be clear, I'm just following through with the trajectory which Syryana determined - he is not willing to consider a scenario where you or I are town, and so we can only win if Syryana is scum. Opinions aside, you've replaced in at ExLo and it's basically mechanical at this point. I actually think Donki is objectively scummier overall, but in theory I can still win if Donki is town here, and it becomes, by necessity, a problem for tomorrow.

[Battle Mage]

Also what do you think the chances, of AD getting pissed at Syryana for catching him and leaving the game, are?

Slim.

Scum is on the cusp of victory, and AD-scum would've been in a great position to win. It's against the rules to speculate on replace outs, but suffice to say I wouldn't have drawn the conclusion you did.

[Battle Mage]

Skitter 100% conftown then and with Donki's vote looks like I was right and it's just him and Syryana together going balls out for the win. Just relying on Skitter and Jumble.

Maybe I won't feel too bad if we lose in that case, as I'll take the cred, and town was really hampered by early game apathy.

[Battle Mage]

although i think 1 more town loss puts my winrate under 50%...

[Battle Mage]

I can be exactly scum with battle mage

???

Given your posts above, you won't thank me for this, but here's the state of play:

Because you and Skitter both didn't hammer me, you are both conftown from my perspective.
Which means, from my perspective Donkihott and Syryana are confirmed scum.
From your perspective, there are 2 possible scenarios:

Battle Mage is scum, with 1 other player.
Donkihott and Syryana is the scumteam.

It's basically over to you (and Skitter) to decide which it is. If either of you get it wrong, all 3 of us lose. But if you both get it right, we have a very good chance of winning. Given your previous response to me, I'll just leave it there and not risk veering into giving my opinion - but let me know if you want to discuss anything.

[Battle Mage]

my current theory is ad/syryana

this is literally impossible.

it's either syryana-donkii or me and somebody

[Battle Mage]

Let's say provisionally, Town: Manwithnoclaim, skitter, AuroraDash

bm why exactly were you townreading ad so strongly at this point? (and like throughout day2?)

i mean, it was a provisional townread, largely based on the fact AD just seemed to be genuinely scumhunting and working hard and I got good vibes from her posts. So it wasn't a strong townread at all, but I felt Pig-Donkii-Syryana was the more likely scumpool.

[Battle Mage]

1. As I think I noted on Day 2, it would look very weird for Syryana to U-turn on that, given his earlier absolute certainty that flowr hinting at being vanilla implied Skitter-town.

i also think you're overselling this and that he could have backed down from this read upon my repping in, i'm finding while doing some rereading

I think we had this discussion at the time. I strongly disagree. Syryana claimed a strong town-read on Flowr because of her vanilla crumb. Nothing happened subsequently which would have diminished that, so to back down from it would have stood out. The fact you repped in didn't change anything - Syryana had already committed.

[Battle Mage]

Battle Mage (2): Syryana, donkihott
Syryana (1): Battle Mage

Not Voting (2): NotAJumbleOfNumbers, skitter30


With 5 alive, it takes 3 to eliminate.

sorry i need to talk this through myself to like ~internalize~ it

me - town

syryana/donki - possible
syryana/battle mage - possible
syryana/ad - impossible as bm would have been hammered and it would have been game over

battle mage/donki - possible
battle mage / ad - possible

ad/donki - impossible, as syryana would be hammered and it would ahve been game over

so we're left with: battle mage with anyone and syryana with donki

ok i think that's right

yes that is right

[Battle Mage]

Let's say provisionally, Town: Manwithnoclaim, skitter, AuroraDash

bm why exactly were you townreading ad so strongly at this point? (and like throughout day2?)

i mean, it was a provisional townread, largely based on the fact AD just seemed to be genuinely scumhunting and working hard and I got good vibes from her posts. So it wasn't a strong townread at all, but I felt Pig-Donkii-Syryana was the more likely scumpool.

you were kinda ok with just straight up taking him out of the pool in a few different places tho, and i feel like you're now downselling it in retrospect?

lol sorry i don't think that's right- she was never actually taken out of the pool I would potentially look at. She was explicitly in my pool even today, and I only committed to the Syryana vote because he declared he was deadset on me being scum (meaning if Syryana was town, town loses anyway). Don't get me wrong, I understand where you're coming from, especially given how the previous 2 elims went, but seriously, please don't over-think this. We pretty much had the solve nailed on Day 2. We said it was 2 of (Pig-Donkii-Syryana).

[Battle Mage]

so we're left with: battle mage with anyone and syryana with donki

so then honestly from my pov the simplest thing to do is make sure i'm solid in my donki read and if i decide yes, just vote bm because if syryana/donki isn't a thing than battle mage has to be scum

and then i probably die and committing to af full solve is no longer my problem
(although it's probably ad)

eh, would it help if i made the case again for why Donkii is scum? Not tonight, but if that's literally what this game hinges on, I'll make time tomorrow.

[Battle Mage]

well its upto you. i sorta feel like you're flipping me anyway, so i'd rather not waste time and energy if we're just going through the motions.

[Battle Mage]

i'm baffled we're losing this game despite having a townblock yesterday which turned out to all be town, and having a remaining scumpool of 2 today who turned out to both be scum.

[Battle Mage]

We

pretty much had the solve nailed on Day 2.

We

said it was 2 of (Pig-Donkii-Syryana).

i'm also p sure i never agreed to that pool ^

lol well i think me, MWNM and AD more or less did

[Battle Mage]

well its upto you. i sorta feel like you're flipping me anyway, so i'd rather not waste time and energy if we're just going through the motions.

fair enough
the next thing i need to do is read donki and i'll probably decide then
i try to keep a very open mind in lylo in case i've missed something, and will read everything and take it into acct (even if i won't necessarily comment on it), so if you wanna do that i'm happy to read it, but i can't promise it'll change my mind
and if you'd rather not, that's fair too

the problem is, i need to persuade not just you, but also the AD replacement.

[Battle Mage]

Tonight will be my one correct guess on the night kill and its someone I can't protect anyway.

lol i'm glad you protected me dude

Spoiler:

but next time, claimed PR

Okay, quickly, as my head is not terrible right now, but it's still hurting.

Basically, the town block of AD

, BM, Skitter, and myself means that 3 people are in the scum pool, so, really, if we elim in the pool of donkihott, Syryana and the other one, then it doesn't matter to me what order we do it in.

yeah i basically agree with this.

see ^ you're basically fine with just removing him from the pool altogether and idk why your read is *that* strong?

looks like i said "i basically agree" which is consistent with everything i've said, and

doesn't

imply i had a super strong townread on AD. The bolding above is yours.

[Battle Mage]

for the stat junkies out there, I'm on a run of 30 consecutive games without being mis-elimmed.

[Battle Mage]

i know. my point is that you're agreeing with just voting through donki/syryana/pig and idk why you've taken ad out at that point
like if your'e saying you're fine with voting through the other three, you're functionally saying you're confident enough on town-ad that you'd be willing to bet the game on them, and idk why you have that opinion at that time

thats not true though, and you can see as much from what i've said today. Having a elim-pool, is not akin to "betting the game" on anything. I'm capable of having townreads and scumreads, ranking them, but still giving all of them the benefit of the doubt. At no point had I committed to locktowning AD, because frankly that would be stupid.

After the whole case I made on Syryana today, I don't understand why this is the only thing you're focussing on. If you take a step back and think about this, I believe you can make the right decision.

[Battle Mage]

also it just occurred to me that if you get this right and vote Syryana, AD's replacement should also do so - as they would know it has to be either a Skitter-BM or Donkii-Syryana team.

[Battle Mage]

for the stat junkies out there, I'm on a run of 30 consecutive games without being mis-elimmed.

nice
i would feel super bad ruining that streak if ur town

i AM town!

for goodness sake Skitter, please go with me on this, so we can actually win. Syryana has sheeped you for this exact situation and you're falling for it!

[Battle Mage]

for the stat junkies out there, I'm on a run of 30 consecutive games without being mis-elimmed.

nice
i would feel super bad ruining that streak if ur town

Pretty sure that's why he said it

lol no i said it because i can't brag about it after it's gone

[Battle Mage]

bm i'm p sure you know what i'm getting at wrt 407 but you're trying to sort of redefine what you were trying to do there in retrospect so it doesn't look like you were townreading ad that strongly

Skitter, look, please just read the game carefully. Read Donkii and Syryana's interaction. Read my assessment of Syryana today. If you still wanna flip me after that, then I'm cool with it.

On the previous 2 days, you voted and then regretted voting for wagons which resulted in mis-elims. Today would be a good time to second guess your existing presumption and avoid a 3rd consecutive mis-elim. All you need to do here, is make 1 right call and trust me, and then we can cruise to victory.

[Battle Mage]

i AM town!

for goodness sake Skitter, please go with me on this, so we can actually win. Syryana has sheeped you for this exact situation and you're falling for it!

You are utterly shameless after all the lambasting you've done of me for pocketing skitter.

...how on earth is it shameless that i've consistently called you out for it, and continue to do so??

[Battle Mage]

bm i'm p sure you know what i'm getting at wrt 407 but you're trying to sort of redefine what you were trying to do there in retrospect so it doesn't look like you were townreading ad that strongly

Skitter, look, please just read the game carefully. Read Donkii and Syryana's interaction. Read my assessment of Syryana today. If you still wanna flip me after that, then I'm cool with it.

On the previous 2 days, you voted and then regretted voting for wagons which resulted in mis-elims. Today would be a good time to second guess your existing presumption and avoid a 3rd consecutive mis-elim. All you need to do here, is make 1 right call and trust me, and then we can cruise to victory.

[Battle Mage]

Skitter, AD is not scum either! it is exactly Donkii and Syryana. I've been saying it was Donkii since Day 1!

[Battle Mage]

Skitter, look, please just read the game carefully. Read Donkii and Syryana's interaction. Read my assessment of Syryana today. If you still wanna flip me after that, then I'm cool with it.

On the previous 2 days, you voted and then regretted voting for wagons which resulted in mis-elims. Today would be a good time to second guess your existing presumption and avoid a 3rd consecutive mis-elim. All you need to do here, is make 1 right call and trust me, and then we can cruise to victory.

yes, i saw that - i'm kinda susceptible to this sort of stuff so i have to like tune it out a bit, cuz you're both doing it
i appreciate that you're trying tho

i'm gonna reread donki at some point tonight and if i have further questions i will def let u know

can you please read the things i asked you to read though? rather than like, re-reading donkii, confbiasing into thinking he's town, and then flipping me?

[Battle Mage]

i AM town!

for goodness sake Skitter, please go with me on this, so we can actually win. Syryana has sheeped you for this exact situation and you're falling for it!

You are utterly shameless after all the lambasting you've done of me for pocketing skitter.

...how on earth is it shameless that i've consistently called you out for it, and continue to do so??

Lmao because you've buddied skitter harder in the last 5 pages than I have this entire game

it's not buddying - i need her to vote you to have a chance of winning.

[Battle Mage]

but ultimately i'm kinda more interested in 407 and why ad was taken out of your pool then cuz i still don't ~entirely~ feel like i got a good answer for that

but just saying that this is still kinda important to me ^

i've already said all i can say on it - sorry dude. I don't know why you're so hung up about it, but I've answered your question. I townleaned AD throughout the bulk of the game for making intelligent and thoughtful observations, which felt like genuine scumhunting. But ultimately you're reading too much into the pool as something which I would have rigidly and unquestionningly stuck with. This is not the case (and in fact, wouldn't have been the case even if I was scum, hence not alignment-indicative).

if nothing else, for the love of God, please explain the opening interaction between Donkii and Syryana if they aren't scumbuddies?

[Battle Mage]

I'm not even mad

mate

it's a beautiful performance

pfft, too late to try buddying me!

[Battle Mage]

if nothing else, for the love of God, please explain the opening interaction between Donkii and Syryana if they aren't scumbuddies?

You've been saying this whole time that I'm too good at this game for this, that, and the other. Example being not noticing you had noticed the crumb, off the top of my head. Why then, am I so ungodly bad that I let anything approaching that interaction hit the thread? With daytalk?

lol it looked more like donkii did it, and by the time you reigned him in it was too late. so it doesnt make me think you are any less competent - nice try to guilt trip me though!

[Battle Mage]

unrelated to anything, but last night i played a marathon game - 5 players, 3 town, 2 scum.

I dayvigged 1 scum on Day 1, leaving 4 players left. Somehow, I then got unanimously voted. no bueno

[Battle Mage]

if nothing else, for the love of God, please explain the opening interaction between Donkii and Syryana if they aren't scumbuddies?

You've been saying this whole time that I'm too good at this game for this, that, and the other. Example being not noticing you had noticed the crumb, off the top of my head. Why then, am I so ungodly bad that I let anything approaching that interaction hit the thread? With daytalk?

lol it looked more like donkii did it, and by the time you reigned him in it was too late. so it doesnt make me think you are any less competent - nice try to guilt trip me though!

Pointing out an inconsistency in your argument is a guilt trip now, is it?

there's no inconsistency though - you're just making stuff up. It was Donkii being newbscum and giving you both away, and you trying to cover for it. You're trying to construe that as me criticising you as a player, when I didn't.

[Battle Mage]

Battle Mage, this is an above game request, but remind me to ask you something about your play in the postgame.

you may as well ask me now? I think we both know we don't have long to wait.

[Battle Mage]

if nothing else, for the love of God, please explain the opening interaction between Donkii and Syryana if they aren't scumbuddies?

sorry can u just link me the first post? not sure which interaction you're referring to

ISO Donkii, and look at his first 5 posts. then you can delve into Syryana's responses from there to see full picture.

[Battle Mage]

i've already said all i can say on it - sorry dude. I don't know why you're so hung up about it, but I've answered your question. I townleaned AD throughout the bulk of the game for making intelligent and thoughtful observations, which felt like genuine scumhunting. But ultimately you're reading too much into the pool as something which I would have rigidly and unquestionningly stuck with. This is not the case (and in fact, wouldn't have been the case even if I was scum, hence not alignment-indicative).

fair enough
i understand that you can't give another answer but i'm just gonna note that i didn't feel like i got a satisfactory one

you got the honest answer *shrug*

[Battle Mage]

Battle Mage, this is an above game request, but remind me to ask you something about your play in the postgame.

you may as well ask me now? I think we both know we don't have long to wait.

You're not gonna answer it, but sure

Why did you 1v1 me here? Was it a gambit to win the game now and you figured you had enough towncred to pull it off? Because it seems to me you would have been better served to have your partner 1v1 me and let you move on to LyLo, where you have both the cred and charisma to talk whoever's left into voting your way.

Pedit: He's talking about donki's rvs vote on me, skitter. page 1

LOL please quit trolling me man

[Battle Mage]

lol i saw the Mod was last poster and figured it was game over.

[Battle Mage]

i dont even get how you figure my leantown-reading of AD is less credible than Syryana's locktown-reading of Donkii (and you).

[Battle Mage]

please just hammer me and end the game, as I can tell you're not reading me in good faith and you're not even considering the possibility Syryana and Donkii are scum here.

[Battle Mage]

even if i was scum, why would i pretend to have a stronger townread on AD than I actually did?? Your hypothesis, even if it was true (which it isn't), isn't alignment indicative. and i mean, there's literally written evidence in the thread where I've set out my reads throughout the game, so you know what my reads were. they are perfectly logical from a town perspective. Unlike Syryana who locktowned 2 people with weak justification.

[Battle Mage]

Skitter you are obsessing over something so minor and not looking at the big picture, and in the process you're talking yourself into throwing the game.

[Battle Mage]

like even if I was scum here - by elimming me, you'd have like a 1/3 of getting the other scum right? whereas if I'm town, you have a 100% chance of town winning if you elim Syryana.

[Battle Mage]

i am immensely frustrated right now, because i feel like i've made an effort in a game full of apathy, and it's all been for nothing because you're unable to get away from this non-issue about the extent of my town-read on AD, and consider like anything else in the whole game. We can win this!!! but we're throwing it away for fk all

[Battle Mage]

I honestly believe in you here, but you need to try!! Like, take a step back, think about the game as a whole. Remove pre-conceptions, read from the beginning, look at interactions. do whatever you need to do.

none of us have been perfect this game, but we have a sweet opportunity to actually win despite losing our PRs in consecutive nights and having consecutive mis-elims. I know you don't like the idea of Donkii being scum BUT HE IS!!!! If you or AD had gone with me yesterday, we wouldn't even be in this situation.

[Battle Mage]

like even if I was scum here - by elimming me, you'd have like a 1/3 of getting the other scum right? whereas if I'm town, you have a 100% chance of town winning if you elim Syryana.

i feel like this math/logic is eehhhhhhhh a little fucky from my pov tbf

lol, do you know what i feel like?

i feel like i'm trying my best to help you, and you're bad-faithing me all the time in response. The math/logic above is completely sound - it's objectively indisputable. It's not unduly "manipulative", it's just the reality. If you are really convinced I'm scum, you can still elim me, but I'm trying lots of ways to make your choice easier. Do you really think, if I'm scum here, I go to all this effort? when me dying wouldnt even matter much!?

[Battle Mage]

high effort is a massive towntell for me

[Battle Mage]

man i'm a sucker for ate and i'm not good at parsing it
idk u wanna share an example of a game or two where you massively towntold (in lylo would be particularly helpful)?

i have like a half memory of you being scum with like blackvoid in a (white flag?) open and you going into overdrive in lylo like two years ago maybe

(but no i'm p sure that from my pov your math post is kinda objectively wrong)

if you think my math is wrong, please actually ask somebody about it (conceptually). Why would I lie about math, even if I was scum!?

Your blackvoid thing was....uh...not me. Prior to this year, I didn't play for the last 10 years or so.

I obvtown in most of my games, because as scum I lurk like fuck, so it's pretty obvious when I'm town. You don't go 30 games without getting day-elimmed as town (plenty of times i get day-elimmed as scum ofc), without being pretty easy to townread.

[Battle Mage]

Go make a wallpost or something. If it's a post that comes from either me or Battle Mage just don't read it. We're not gonna say anything useful at this point anyways, just more finger pointing.

manipulative - i'm sure you wouldn't be saying this if you thought Skitter was voting you today.

[Battle Mage]

bm, syryana's and donki's first interaction doesn't come from partners lol

Spoiler:

it literally does

im not sure why we're still playing

[Battle Mage]

VOTE: battle mage

i'll put us all out of our misery then, rather than just going round in circles, achieving nothing.

[Battle Mage]

Thanks, guys! (: I'll have a break, then give the game another go in a while.

hope all ok! you played great I thought, shame you repped out!