Newbie 2053 | Primroses | Game Over

[endlessdark]

Is it too early to assume Cook isn't mafia with Dew? I wouldn't expect a newbie to vote their partner so early. WhemeStar on the other hand is semi experienced so I wouldn't say the same thing about him and Enchant.

[endlessdark]

I was trying to articulate why, but it's basically intuition -- VOTE: Prism

[endlessdark]

@mod/Nahdia I think WhemeStar has changed from Enchant and voted for Prism.

I was trying to articulate why, but it's basically intuition -- VOTE: Prism

Why did you decide to vote Prism here?

Their post and vote strikes me as an inconspicuous attempt to "fit in". The townblock folks are attracting more attention so I don't feel the same way about them yet. This is (obviously?) far from a strong read though.

[endlessdark]

I was trying to articulate why, but it's basically intuition -- VOTE: Prism

Why did you decide to vote Prism here?

Their post and vote strikes me as an inconspicuous attempt to "fit in". The townblock folks are attracting more attention so I don't feel the same way about them yet. This is (obviously?) far from a strong read though.

What makes their post different than the two prior posts that were casting votes?

It's not much different from others. Prism, though, didn't participate in the townblock thing which contributes to me preferentially voting them. I'm new to forum mafia, but based on my realtime mafia experience, attracting attention is less often done by the mafs.

This is honestly an overanalyzed read that I've made with minimal information. I think it's simpler to just say intuition.

[endlessdark]

@Prism
I doubt anybody is a fan of RVS, but we gotta move the game forward somehow. It's hard to interpret your aggression as towny, though, it feels unnecessary. It's neutral at best and scummy at worst.

[endlessdark]

UNVOTE: Prism

I've been jumping back and forth in my head whether Prism's behavior was scummy, but at this point I feel like it's neutral rather than scummy. You can tell that they were frustrated (especially after being replaced) which, while it produced posts that aren't helpful, does not indicate alignment so I'll unvote.

I'll update my vote soon, I'm still thinking who the optimal vote is given what we know.

[endlessdark]

I have vacation soon, so I have more time so again for not saying anything!
For now I don't really have amazing thoughts, but I can see why people think a mafia will most likely be silent but on the other hand I think mafia is smart enough of not staying totally silent. I do get why saying things now is pretty important because we don't have anything to really look at but I can see why town would be lurking in this game right now (as I kinda did woops) so I don't think being silent corresponds to being sus and I do see reasons to lurk as town as "Just saying something" is not that easy? (at least for me I guess.) Because I at least want to make a post semi-meaningful and I find it a bit hard to call out suspicious things (I don't want to hide and say oh Im a newbie so I'm not gonna post though). For now I could see why the posts of Prism were a bit aggressive-ish, so I agree with Battle Mage and Wu Wei there but hey Prism will be replaced right?

I agree that mafia should be smart enough not to be silent. What I think is more indicative of maf alignment is behavior that looks like it's not silent, but does not actually move the game forward (no useful inferences, meaningful votes (e.g. voting somebody who actually might be eliminated), intriguing questions).

[endlessdark]

I have vacation soon, so I have more time so again for not saying anything!
For now I don't really have amazing thoughts, but I can see why people think a mafia will most likely be silent but on the other hand I think mafia is smart enough of not staying totally silent. I do get why saying things now is pretty important because we don't have anything to really look at but I can see why town would be lurking in this game right now (as I kinda did woops) so I don't think being silent corresponds to being sus and I do see reasons to lurk as town as "Just saying something" is not that easy? (at least for me I guess.) Because I at least want to make a post semi-meaningful and I find it a bit hard to call out suspicious things (I don't want to hide and say oh Im a newbie so I'm not gonna post though). For now I could see why the posts of Prism were a bit aggressive-ish, so I agree with Battle Mage and Wu Wei there but hey Prism will be replaced right?

I agree that mafia should be smart enough not to be silent. What I think is more indicative of maf alignment is behavior that looks like it's not silent, but does not actually move the game forward (no useful inferences, meaningful votes (e.g. voting somebody who actually might be eliminated), intriguing questions).

I just scrolled through the game pages and I feel like Cook and Qspaces fit this description the best. Cook possibly even more so. I'm alright with either vote so I'll be voting Qspaces with a possible change to Cook if others see his behavior as potentially scummy. I know relying on others is not necessarily ideal, but I'm still getting the hang of what makes somebody mafia in this format.

VOTE: Qspaces

[endlessdark]

I should clarify: I voted Qspaces over Cook because others are voting them as well right now. I don't want to waste my vote on Cook if I'm the only one scumreading them.

[endlessdark]

Dew and Qspaces are unlikely partners, given Dew's vote there, bringing Qspaces to E-1.

[endlessdark]

Dew and Qspaces are unlikely partners, given Dew's vote there, bringing Qspaces to E-1.

Especially given that they're both approaching elimination. I feel like it'd be extremely unlikely that if you're (Dew in this case) approaching elimination you'd start bussing your partner (Qspaces) who is also getting votes.

[endlessdark]

I'm going to stick with my vote on Dew for now. They haven't done anything really but talk about how they don't know what to do, and they appeared 3 minutes after getting a 3rd vote on to push the competing wagon to E-1. We need more substantive contributions if we want to win as they game goes on.

Dew is new and I think in her situation it sounds right not to know what to do on day 1. This combined with your nitpicking of the double text in her post makes me suspect you're trying to push an easy elimination on her. I can't see double text being relevant and can easily be explained by her copying message in case she edits but then changes her mind and pastes back (or anything similar).

[endlessdark]

The fact that Dew didn't try to make up a reason for voting Qspaces, but instead simply said she doesn't know what to do and joined the bandwagon is not a maf behavior, I think. That is not to say it is helpful to town what she's doing, but doesn't sound disingenuous.

[endlessdark]

some thoughts:

On balance, Wu Wei is probably the towniest player. I don't necessarily think he stands his ground as strongly as he did, as scum, especially after Prism repped out. Seems a relatively high-risk, low-reward play as scum anyway (just put them in the spotlight, no chance to buddy someone, not really protecting anyone).
Endlessdark is basically in the same place as me on suspects.
Enchant is quiet but that's more their town meta than scum meta.
Dew feels fairly genuine.
Cook is very quiet here, wouldn't be surprised if he was scum.
I'm very wary of the 2 other SE slots (Wheme and Lunar) - their interaction doesn't make a lot of sense and stands out.

So I'm gonna say 2 scum within: Wheme, Lunar, Cook and Qspaces

Sorry for spamming many posts. I just wanted to say I like this sharing of current thoughts. I am a little bit wary of townreading Battle Mage for the simple reason that he's experienced and I expect that he can fool me, but so far his behavior feels protown.

[endlessdark]

maybe but you'd be surprised how often stuff like that happens when copy-pasting from scum chats. I know one player who did the same mistake 3 times in 1 game as scum.

Lol, I have no experience with such situations, didn't know that was a thing. I find it weird that somebody would copy paste from another chat.

Hmm I'd have said they sounded pretty disingenuous when claiming that the vote was "just getting the ball rolling" etc.

In recognition of all of this...no unvote?

Maybe I'm naive but Dew's behavior is still to me an indicator of newbieness more than alignment, I don't think they're an optimal elimination.

Cook, I'd like to hear more from you. At this point it's antitown to be lurking as much as you are. Even if your reads are weak, it'd be helpful to share whatever thoughts you have or what intuition tells you.

[endlessdark]

Why do you think Dew is newbie rather than scummy? Do you think Cook is scummy for lurking or just anti-town?

Because Dew's behavior looks more clumsy than calculated to me.

Cook's lurking is anti town, but currently not indicative of alignment. His early posts were leaning a bit scummy, though, as they were filler.

[endlessdark]

VOTE: Battle Mage

Given your experience, Battle Mage, you should've known Dew wasn't the optimal vote. Your responses to her didn't at all seem to consider that the fact she was new affected her actions.

[endlessdark]

I think perhaps endless dark is the person I most suspect right now.

I am glad you voted me, then. Oh wait-

[endlessdark]

VOTE: Battle Mage

Given your experience, Battle Mage, you should've known Dew wasn't the optimal vote. Your responses to her didn't at all seem to consider that the fact she was new affected her actions.

is this a bit disingenuous? We discussed this yesterday and you didn't level that criticism at me then.

In my conversation with Lunar I was criticizing voting Dew. I didn't get to address your specific reasoning before she got hammered, but I laid out that foses on her were shallow in that sense that they were based on her making a newbie mistake.

I do agree SE players should be held to account for getting things wrong, but I'd be interested to see your evaluation of the other players on that wagon?

I am primarily criticizing you because you are the oldest player registration-wise.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I don't think my take on Dew was bad, nor was I expecting the wagon to necessarily result in an elim.

How did you not expect the wagon to result in an elimination? You brought Dew to E-1:

VOTE: Dew

Not a lock but on balance I prefer this to Qspaces. I think that's E-1.

Dew was also at E-2 for 2 days before being eliminated.

[endlessdark]

Sorry if my post sounds mean, I am just slightly distrustful of your actions.

[endlessdark]

VOTE: Battle Mage

Given your experience, Battle Mage, you should've known Dew wasn't the optimal vote. Your responses to her didn't at all seem to consider that the fact she was new affected her actions.

is this a bit disingenuous? We discussed this yesterday and you didn't level that criticism at me then.

In my conversation with Lunar I was criticizing voting Dew. I didn't get to address your specific reasoning before she got hammered, but I laid out that foses on her were shallow in that sense that they were based on her making a newbie mistake.

Can you set out the aspects of my reasoning you didn't address? Looking back, I can't see there was anything from me which you didn't comment on at the time, so the above isn't accurate. Your opposition to the Dew-wagon was fairly low-key and relaxed, and the difference with your aggressive approach today is stark.

Before Dew got eliminated, I didn't respond to your commentary on Dew. While my opposition was fairly relaxed back then, I wish it wasn't. I didn't have the intuition for how quickly Dew would be eliminated, otherwise my tone would've been more urgent. Additionally, rereading the game and thinking about the motives afterwards made me more suspicious of you, hence the change in my tone.

Spoiler:

maybe but you'd be surprised how often stuff like that happens when copy-pasting from scum chats. I know one player who did the same mistake 3 times in 1 game as scum.

Lol, I have no experience with such situations, didn't know that was a thing. I find it weird that somebody would copy paste from another chat.

Hmm I'd have said they sounded pretty disingenuous when claiming that the vote was "just getting the ball rolling" etc.

In recognition of all of this...no unvote?

Maybe I'm naive but Dew's behavior is still to me an indicator of newbieness more than alignment, I don't think they're an optimal elimination.

I do agree SE players should be held to account for getting things wrong, but I'd be interested to see your evaluation of the other players on that wagon?

I am primarily criticizing you because you are the oldest player registration-wise.

As I say, I'm fine with that criticism (although I'm not exactly famed for my amazing reads ), but being wrong doesn't make me scum. And my argument is you haven't commented on other players on that wagon - notably Enchant, who hammered for...why exactly? I'd be adopting a more balanced perspective which takes into account relative strength of reasoning for votes/timing of votes/wagonomics.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I don't think my take on Dew was bad, nor was I expecting the wagon to necessarily result in an elim.

How did you not expect the wagon to result in an elimination? You brought Dew to E-1:

VOTE: Dew

Not a lock but on balance I prefer this to Qspaces. I think that's E-1.

Dew was also at E-2 for 2 days before being eliminated.

We had like 4 days left? I would have at least expected someone to declare intent, and then a claim, before we decide on actually elimming. So I suppose what I'm saying is, I wouldn't necessarily have ended up on Dew, all else being equal (although at that time they were the scummiest player to me). I do get where you are/were coming from on the "they're just a newbie" defence, but it did seem more like newbie-scum than newbie-town, with the copy-paste thing, and the laissez-faire attitude to putting someone at -1, and then apologising but keeping them at -1. It was wrong, but I don't think it was a foolish elim.

Wrong read alone isn't the issue, my primary issue is that your reads are shallow, given your experience. Especially given that Dew was an easy target. I kinda feel the same way about you voting Enchant here. I think Cook is a much better vote. There doesn't seem to be any motivation in Cook's posts to find mafia.

[endlessdark]

Wait why are we voting Battle Mage?

My last 2 posts sort of lay out the reasoning, the summary being my perception of Battle Mage not genuinely trying to find mafia.

[endlessdark]

I’ve quoted a few of Battle Mage’s posts and the ones I’ve quoted I see them as trying to solve so I’m not really sure what you are talking about with Battle Mage not trying to find mafia.

Battle Mage appearing as he's trying to find mafia is not the same as him genuinely doing it. Obviously mafia will try to appear as if they're scumhunting.

I think Cook is a much better vote. There doesn't seem to be any motivation in Cook's posts to find mafia.

Wait why are we voting Battle Mage?

My last 2 posts sort of lay out the reasoning, the summary being my perception of Battle Mage not genuinely trying to find mafia.

These contradict each other especially as you are voting Battle Mage

They don't. I scumread both Battle Mage and Cook. In my statement "I think Cook is a much better vote" is in comparison to Enchant, which is who Battle Mage voted.

[endlessdark]

Sorry, I will. I didn't get to address all the points yet.

[endlessdark]

VOTE: Battle Mage

Given your experience, Battle Mage, you should've known Dew wasn't the optimal vote. Your responses to her didn't at all seem to consider that the fact she was new affected her actions.

is this a bit disingenuous? We discussed this yesterday and you didn't level that criticism at me then.

In my conversation with Lunar I was criticizing voting Dew. I didn't get to address your specific reasoning before she got hammered, but I laid out that foses on her were shallow in that sense that they were based on her making a newbie mistake.

Can you set out the aspects of my reasoning you didn't address? Looking back, I can't see there was anything from me which you didn't comment on at the time, so the above isn't accurate. Your opposition to the Dew-wagon was fairly low-key and relaxed, and the difference with your aggressive approach today is stark.

Before Dew got eliminated, I didn't respond to your commentary on Dew.

You did - I literally quoted it in my previous post.

You're correct, I mistook my comments as replies to Lunar Martian.

I don't think much of your read on me tbh - maybe fine in isolation, but you're just tunnelling me and ignoring other players, and the wider context of the game. You still haven't given any deep assessment of anybody else this dayphase, despite me asking twice - so I'm not taking your "shallow reads" dig to heart. I'd like to actually know more about what you think about Enchant for instance. I've been open and honest with my takes, so essentially your vote on me still boils down to "we mis-elimmed, BM was on the wagon and is experienced, so he must be scum". Which as I've said - happy to be held to account for being wrong, but there isn't really much I can say in response, other than it's pretty surface-level and I do think you can do better.

VOTE: Cook

It feels like there's a consensus for this, so let's give it a shot.

VOTE: Cook
I am good with Cook vote, as his is another of my prime suspects. My posts have indeed focused too much on you and right now Cook might be the more optimal vote.

To answer your question about Enchant, I have no idea. My guess is that they're town based on their tone. I kinda liked their energy here:

Also. If you didn't learn, don't put anyone on E-1 unless you want them dead. Yes, i even bolded it.

What thing that confuses me right now is this:

I think perhaps endless dark is the person I most suspect right now.

I find it surprising that you suspected me the most yesterday followed by joining my wagon on BM today. Do you mind elaborating why you fos BM?

[endlessdark]

Jeez I fucked up the grammar in my last post.

[endlessdark]

UNVOTE: Cook
I need to think about this some more. I am torn between Cook and BM.

enlessdark:

... I dunno. It depends how many expireince he have in mafia at all. Atleast, assuming first votes like "not partner" is actually not good and expected only from someone, who playing first time or so.

I think he is newbie-town, but he actually knows termins very good, while i still learning them, but. Pushing BM after this hammer is really indicative he is Townie. Why? Well, i would scream "Enchant+Endlessdark" if i would't be Enchant self. I see no motivation for him as Mafia to go fight with BM (Expirenced player), instead of supporting push on me, which is certanly easy. Of course, this is possible BM and him is just mafia members, and this push is just to confirm like they are not partners. BM would coach him in private, and this could explain his knowledge in termins, but low knowledge about game. I find this unlikely though, as this is too risky. I need think about it more.

I know the terminology because I've played a lot of mafia in real life and on chats. I am new to forum mafia, though.

[endlessdark]

I've also gone over the newbie introduction and wiki of mafiascum to learn the terms specific to the site.

[endlessdark]

Cook is more active on site lobby chat than in this game.

[endlessdark]

Enchant, Cook, and BM are the players who have 2 or more foses on them, I suggest sticking to those players when voting. There's a bit more than 2 days left and we should narrow down our choices.

VOTE: Cook
I am going to re-vote this. He clearly doesn't care about the outcome of the game and while that's not strictly alignment indicative, it's very anti town. I looked over Newbie 5052 game and he's certainly capable of playing properly.

On another topic -- is it normal for so many players to be replaced? It's hard to follow the game when half of the players have been replaced and you need to restart to the context in which you read them.

[endlessdark]

WhemeStar was lynched, silly.

[endlessdark]

Sorry, killed*

[endlessdark]

WhemeStar has been killed during Night 1. He was a

town mason

.

.

[endlessdark]

I took a peek at the suggested game, and I can see what you are getting at BM. Are you suspecting Cook is trying to play off not caring about an elimination to buy town points then?

And Cook, what do you have to say about the argument BM is making regarding how quiet you have been in comparison to your previous game?

I believe it's entirely a justified argument, however, I'd like to point out I was a Doc in that previous game, and therefore was informed slightly of the setup, had a use in actively fighting the scum team besides dayplay (which, I'd argue, is much more powerful of a motivator to play a game – having something that the other players don't), which is definitely not my strong suit, and also consequentially had a reason to play much more.

Not buying this. Doc might help motivate you, but the difference between the two games is too much. There was no effort this game at all from you to help town. Hell, your last vote was completely random.

[endlessdark]

WhemeStar was lynched, silly.

I wasn't aware of this but I've just noted this.

Star died at night. What lynch?

Sorry, killed*

[endlessdark]

I would prefer to eliminate endless as I scum read them the most

Enchant, Cook, and BM are the players who have 2 or more foses on them, I suggest sticking to those players when voting.

this pinged me. 'Anyone but me' mindset from endlessdark.

I'd certainly prefer not to die.

[endlessdark]

On a more serious note, do you think there's substantial suspicion of me at this point to warrant discussing my elimination? It's in the best interest of town not too diffuse attention too much, and especially now that we have 1 day left. At this point, I wouldn't say you're a candidate either, BM, and it's between Enchant and Cook.

[endlessdark]

I'm just gonna claim because I don't see you guys changing your mind -- I'm the other town mason.

[endlessdark]

Also, whoever is town among voters absolutely sucks as a player. Do you think I'd go against Battle Mage, who was hard to get lynched in the first place, if I were maf? Nobody suspected him and I had no reason to go against him with all the easy lynches out there.

[endlessdark]

Game ended actually.

? There's 2 mafs and 3 towns alive, what do you mean?

[endlessdark]

Did you just admit to being maf

[endlessdark]

Town could not have won this. Cook threw the game and even asked to be eliminated twice as town. He basically played against his win condition.

[endlessdark]

Battle Mage and Enchant did play well, though.

[endlessdark]

I felt so sure... I’m sorry

It's ok, you followed your suspicion and that's not a bad thing.