Newbie 2053 | Primroses | Game Over

[endlessdark]

VOTE: Battle Mage

Given your experience, Battle Mage, you should've known Dew wasn't the optimal vote. Your responses to her didn't at all seem to consider that the fact she was new affected her actions.

is this a bit disingenuous? We discussed this yesterday and you didn't level that criticism at me then.

In my conversation with Lunar I was criticizing voting Dew. I didn't get to address your specific reasoning before she got hammered, but I laid out that foses on her were shallow in that sense that they were based on her making a newbie mistake.

I do agree SE players should be held to account for getting things wrong, but I'd be interested to see your evaluation of the other players on that wagon?

I am primarily criticizing you because you are the oldest player registration-wise.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I don't think my take on Dew was bad, nor was I expecting the wagon to necessarily result in an elim.

How did you not expect the wagon to result in an elimination? You brought Dew to E-1:

VOTE: Dew

Not a lock but on balance I prefer this to Qspaces. I think that's E-1.

Dew was also at E-2 for 2 days before being eliminated.

[endlessdark]

Sorry if my post sounds mean, I am just slightly distrustful of your actions.

[Cook]

so we're playing with a useless PR

VOTE: Enchant

E-2

[Lunar Martian]

VOTE: Battle Mage

[Enchant]

Alright, i waked up.

You have questions?

[Cookie Monster]

Hello

[Enchant]

Hello

Welcome.

[Enchant]

VOTE: Enchant

my hero solve is Enchant-Cook - Enchant for the weird hammer and Cook for seeming a bit subdued.

With Cook you probably right. Sadly you too suspect.


Alright, i will say it directly. For who i say "Don't put on E-1, unless you want them dead"? Of course not for you, not for people who placed vote and wait before someone get reason or get bored. I had both and did i, because with this level of apathy, you WILL lose and it's time to shake up and start think, not just sit before time ends or our glorious mayor point who to kill.

About Dew. I didn't expect him being Town at all, because of last post. I tried ask some questions but i was kinda pushed. Better chance to get mafja that suicide, i kinda learn that.


About you (not only BM, but whole wagon) though, how many days i give you to unvote? Or maybe half of players don't read game at all? I'm damn certanly, there is mafia on wagon, just need think how much, and really is this possible for 3 (or even 4 townies which is damn unlikely, but if yes, i will scream on you at the end) sharing this mindset.

Also.

If you didn't learn, don't put anyone on E-1 unless you want them dead.

Yes, i even bolded it.

Now i will read game. Again, you can't wait for just BM catching all mafia for you now for obvious reason, so too do something i dunno.

[Battle Mage]

VOTE: Battle Mage

Given your experience, Battle Mage, you should've known Dew wasn't the optimal vote. Your responses to her didn't at all seem to consider that the fact she was new affected her actions.

is this a bit disingenuous? We discussed this yesterday and you didn't level that criticism at me then.

In my conversation with Lunar I was criticizing voting Dew. I didn't get to address your specific reasoning before she got hammered, but I laid out that foses on her were shallow in that sense that they were based on her making a newbie mistake.

Can you set out the aspects of my reasoning you didn't address? Looking back, I can't see there was anything from me which you didn't comment on at the time, so the above isn't accurate. Your opposition to the Dew-wagon was fairly low-key and relaxed, and the difference with your aggressive approach today is stark.

Spoiler:

maybe but you'd be surprised how often stuff like that happens when copy-pasting from scum chats. I know one player who did the same mistake 3 times in 1 game as scum.

Lol, I have no experience with such situations, didn't know that was a thing. I find it weird that somebody would copy paste from another chat.

Hmm I'd have said they sounded pretty disingenuous when claiming that the vote was "just getting the ball rolling" etc.

In recognition of all of this...no unvote?

Maybe I'm naive but Dew's behavior is still to me an indicator of newbieness more than alignment, I don't think they're an optimal elimination.

I do agree SE players should be held to account for getting things wrong, but I'd be interested to see your evaluation of the other players on that wagon?

I am primarily criticizing you because you are the oldest player registration-wise.

As I say, I'm fine with that criticism (although I'm not exactly famed for my amazing reads ), but being wrong doesn't make me scum. And my argument is you haven't commented on other players on that wagon - notably Enchant, who hammered for...why exactly? I'd be adopting a more balanced perspective which takes into account relative strength of reasoning for votes/timing of votes/wagonomics.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I don't think my take on Dew was bad, nor was I expecting the wagon to necessarily result in an elim.

How did you not expect the wagon to result in an elimination? You brought Dew to E-1:

VOTE: Dew

Not a lock but on balance I prefer this to Qspaces. I think that's E-1.

Dew was also at E-2 for 2 days before being eliminated.

We had like 4 days left? I would have at least expected someone to declare intent, and then a claim, before we decide on actually elimming. So I suppose what I'm saying is, I wouldn't necessarily have ended up on Dew, all else being equal (although at that time they were the scummiest player to me). I do get where you are/were coming from on the "they're just a newbie" defence, but it did seem more like newbie-scum than newbie-town, with the copy-paste thing, and the laissez-faire attitude to putting someone at -1, and then apologising but keeping them at -1. It was wrong, but I don't think it was a foolish elim.

[Battle Mage]

VOTE: Battle Mage

really dude? why?

[Battle Mage]

VOTE: Enchant

my hero solve is Enchant-Cook - Enchant for the weird hammer and Cook for seeming a bit subdued.

With Cook you probably right. Sadly you too suspect.


Alright, i will say it directly. For who i say "Don't put on E-1, unless you want them dead"? Of course not for you, not for people who placed vote and wait before someone get reason or get bored. I had both and did i, because with this level of apathy, you WILL lose and it's time to shake up and start think, not just sit before time ends or our glorious mayor point who to kill.

About Dew. I didn't expect him being Town at all, because of last post. I tried ask some questions but i was kinda pushed. Better chance to get mafja that suicide, i kinda learn that.


About you (not only BM, but whole wagon) though, how many days i give you to unvote? Or maybe half of players don't read game at all? I'm damn certanly, there is mafia on wagon, just need think how much, and really is this possible for 3 (or even 4 townies which is damn unlikely, but if yes, i will scream on you at the end) sharing this mindset.

Also.

If you didn't learn, don't put anyone on E-1 unless you want them dead.

Yes, i even bolded it.

Now i will read game. Again, you can't wait for just BM catching all mafia for you now for obvious reason, so too do something i dunno.

so just to be clear - you hammered early out of self-preservation? you had 1 vote on you? I'm sure I remember you lamenting quickhammers in a previous newbie game (albeit as scum). The only thing which gives me pause on you is the meta-angle.

On the wagonomics point, I'd guess 1 scum on-wagon, 1 scum off-wagon - I can buy the reasoning for the elim.

[Cookie Monster]

Wait why are we voting Battle Mage?

[Nahdia]

Vote Count 2.01

Battle Mage (2):

endlessdark, Lunar Martian

Enchant (2):

Battle Mage, Cook

Not Voting (3):

Cook

, Wu Wei,

endlessdark

, Cookie Monster, Enchant,

Battle Mage

,

Lunar Martian

Deadline is in

(expired on 2021-02-19 19:45:00)

, at which point we will default to no elimination.

With seven players alive, it takes

four

to reach majority.

Note:

Getting 8 hours of sleep is important for your health, both physical and mental!

[endlessdark]

VOTE: Battle Mage

Given your experience, Battle Mage, you should've known Dew wasn't the optimal vote. Your responses to her didn't at all seem to consider that the fact she was new affected her actions.

is this a bit disingenuous? We discussed this yesterday and you didn't level that criticism at me then.

In my conversation with Lunar I was criticizing voting Dew. I didn't get to address your specific reasoning before she got hammered, but I laid out that foses on her were shallow in that sense that they were based on her making a newbie mistake.

Can you set out the aspects of my reasoning you didn't address? Looking back, I can't see there was anything from me which you didn't comment on at the time, so the above isn't accurate. Your opposition to the Dew-wagon was fairly low-key and relaxed, and the difference with your aggressive approach today is stark.

Before Dew got eliminated, I didn't respond to your commentary on Dew. While my opposition was fairly relaxed back then, I wish it wasn't. I didn't have the intuition for how quickly Dew would be eliminated, otherwise my tone would've been more urgent. Additionally, rereading the game and thinking about the motives afterwards made me more suspicious of you, hence the change in my tone.

Spoiler:

maybe but you'd be surprised how often stuff like that happens when copy-pasting from scum chats. I know one player who did the same mistake 3 times in 1 game as scum.

Lol, I have no experience with such situations, didn't know that was a thing. I find it weird that somebody would copy paste from another chat.

Hmm I'd have said they sounded pretty disingenuous when claiming that the vote was "just getting the ball rolling" etc.

In recognition of all of this...no unvote?

Maybe I'm naive but Dew's behavior is still to me an indicator of newbieness more than alignment, I don't think they're an optimal elimination.

I do agree SE players should be held to account for getting things wrong, but I'd be interested to see your evaluation of the other players on that wagon?

I am primarily criticizing you because you are the oldest player registration-wise.

As I say, I'm fine with that criticism (although I'm not exactly famed for my amazing reads ), but being wrong doesn't make me scum. And my argument is you haven't commented on other players on that wagon - notably Enchant, who hammered for...why exactly? I'd be adopting a more balanced perspective which takes into account relative strength of reasoning for votes/timing of votes/wagonomics.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I don't think my take on Dew was bad, nor was I expecting the wagon to necessarily result in an elim.

How did you not expect the wagon to result in an elimination? You brought Dew to E-1:

VOTE: Dew

Not a lock but on balance I prefer this to Qspaces. I think that's E-1.

Dew was also at E-2 for 2 days before being eliminated.

We had like 4 days left? I would have at least expected someone to declare intent, and then a claim, before we decide on actually elimming. So I suppose what I'm saying is, I wouldn't necessarily have ended up on Dew, all else being equal (although at that time they were the scummiest player to me). I do get where you are/were coming from on the "they're just a newbie" defence, but it did seem more like newbie-scum than newbie-town, with the copy-paste thing, and the laissez-faire attitude to putting someone at -1, and then apologising but keeping them at -1. It was wrong, but I don't think it was a foolish elim.

Wrong read alone isn't the issue, my primary issue is that your reads are shallow, given your experience. Especially given that Dew was an easy target. I kinda feel the same way about you voting Enchant here. I think Cook is a much better vote. There doesn't seem to be any motivation in Cook's posts to find mafia.

[endlessdark]

Wait why are we voting Battle Mage?

My last 2 posts sort of lay out the reasoning, the summary being my perception of Battle Mage not genuinely trying to find mafia.

[Lunar Martian]

Enchant kind of Towntold by not joining the BM wagon. It seems to be BM and cook.

[Nahdia]

Foxxi replaces Wu Wei.

[Battle Mage]

VOTE: Battle Mage

Given your experience, Battle Mage, you should've known Dew wasn't the optimal vote. Your responses to her didn't at all seem to consider that the fact she was new affected her actions.

is this a bit disingenuous? We discussed this yesterday and you didn't level that criticism at me then.

In my conversation with Lunar I was criticizing voting Dew. I didn't get to address your specific reasoning before she got hammered, but I laid out that foses on her were shallow in that sense that they were based on her making a newbie mistake.

Can you set out the aspects of my reasoning you didn't address? Looking back, I can't see there was anything from me which you didn't comment on at the time, so the above isn't accurate. Your opposition to the Dew-wagon was fairly low-key and relaxed, and the difference with your aggressive approach today is stark.

Before Dew got eliminated, I didn't respond to your commentary on Dew.

You did - I literally quoted it in my previous post.

Spoiler:

maybe but you'd be surprised how often stuff like that happens when copy-pasting from scum chats. I know one player who did the same mistake 3 times in 1 game as scum.

Lol, I have no experience with such situations, didn't know that was a thing. I find it weird that somebody would copy paste from another chat.

Hmm I'd have said they sounded pretty disingenuous when claiming that the vote was "just getting the ball rolling" etc.

In recognition of all of this...no unvote?

Maybe I'm naive but Dew's behavior is still to me an indicator of newbieness more than alignment, I don't think they're an optimal elimination.

I do agree SE players should be held to account for getting things wrong, but I'd be interested to see your evaluation of the other players on that wagon?

I am primarily criticizing you because you are the oldest player registration-wise.

As I say, I'm fine with that criticism (although I'm not exactly famed for my amazing reads ), but being wrong doesn't make me scum. And my argument is you haven't commented on other players on that wagon - notably Enchant, who hammered for...why exactly? I'd be adopting a more balanced perspective which takes into account relative strength of reasoning for votes/timing of votes/wagonomics.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I don't think my take on Dew was bad, nor was I expecting the wagon to necessarily result in an elim.

How did you not expect the wagon to result in an elimination? You brought Dew to E-1:

VOTE: Dew

Not a lock but on balance I prefer this to Qspaces. I think that's E-1.

Dew was also at E-2 for 2 days before being eliminated.

We had like 4 days left? I would have at least expected someone to declare intent, and then a claim, before we decide on actually elimming. So I suppose what I'm saying is, I wouldn't necessarily have ended up on Dew, all else being equal (although at that time they were the scummiest player to me). I do get where you are/were coming from on the "they're just a newbie" defence, but it did seem more like newbie-scum than newbie-town, with the copy-paste thing, and the laissez-faire attitude to putting someone at -1, and then apologising but keeping them at -1. It was wrong, but I don't think it was a foolish elim.

Wrong read alone isn't the issue, my primary issue is that your reads are shallow, given your experience. Especially given that Dew was an easy target. I kinda feel the same way about you voting Enchant here. I think Cook is a much better vote. There doesn't seem to be any motivation in Cook's posts to find mafia.[/quote]

I don't think much of your read on me tbh - maybe fine in isolation, but you're just tunnelling me and ignoring other players, and the wider context of the game. You still haven't given any deep assessment of anybody else this dayphase, despite me asking twice - so I'm not taking your "shallow reads" dig to heart. I'd like to actually know more about what you think about Enchant for instance. I've been open and honest with my takes, so essentially your vote on me still boils down to "we mis-elimmed, BM was on the wagon and is experienced, so he must be scum". Which as I've said - happy to be held to account for being wrong, but there isn't really much I can say in response, other than it's pretty surface-level and I do think you can do better.

VOTE: Cook

It feels like there's a consensus for this, so let's give it a shot.

[Lunar Martian]

Battle Mage is Mafia here.

[Battle Mage]

Wait why are we voting Battle Mage?

My last 2 posts sort of lay out the reasoning, the summary being my perception of Battle Mage not genuinely trying to find mafia.

Enchant kind of Towntold by not joining the BM wagon. It seems to be BM and cook.

Why would Enchant have joined the BM wagon? There's no compelling reason for it (with respect to endlessdark who has given a reason - which amounts to me being experienced and on a mis-elim yesterday - which over my mafia career is likely NAI because longevity does not equate to aptitude).

This is pretty bad faith - your townread on Enchant assumes I'm scum, which I'm not. Sadly you're probably town and also not talking to me.

[Battle Mage]

Battle Mage is Mafia here.

Nope, I am in fact town, but you do you. I've mis-elimmed you enough times that I can take one back.

[Cookie Monster]

Spoiler:

You wondered why I'm avoiding the thread.

You know exactly why I am avoiding the thread

and why I take issue with it, but I cannot explain beyond what I just said via the ruleset, and you know this and are exploiting it.

This is incorrect. To be clear, I have no idea why you would be deliberately avoiding the thread as town - which is precisely my point. I can see why, as scum, you might want to lay low and avoid attention. Town players tend to be more relaxed with their posting.

You are experienced enough that, if you were town, you would completely understand my thought-process here. But instead you're leaning towards an OMGUS vote on me, which further incriminates you.

@BM, what are you looking for Prism to do?

to post something (anything!) which helps determine if they are town or scum - rather than just lurking.

There's dissonance between BM claiming to have meta'd Prism and BM claiming to not know why Prism is not active in this thread. Looking at Prism's post history is explanation enough.

I'd say completely the opposite - looking at Prism's post history is precisely why I didn't understand their lack of activity here (before coming under some pressure). That's the only real way you can judge whether someone is lurking, or just busy doing non-mafia stuff.

Subsequently, I'm baffled at Prism's argument that I "know" a pro-town reason why they would be deliberately avoiding this game.

Subsequently, I'm baffled at Prism's argument that I "know" a pro-town reason why they would be deliberately avoiding this game.

Where did he say it was pro-town?

I guess you're right, maybe my interpretation was generous! But I think he was implying it to be a pro-town reason (strictly meaning not pro-scum). Unless you're asking if there was a personal non-game-related reason? In which case...why would he have said I know what that is? I don't know Prism personally.

at risk of this becoming a complete angle-shoot, let me re-frame the argument slightly:

BM calls out Prism for perceived lurking
Prism admits lurking but claims it is not scum-motivated
Prism claims BM

knows

it is not scum-motivated lurking and BM is scum for calling it out.

Questions which follow:

What is the town-motivation for lurking in the early stages of a newbie game?
Why didn't Prism vote for me? Instead sticking with a random vote over a claimed genuine suspicion.
If Prism had a good reason for not posting, and was unconcerned about having a wagon on them (as they claimed), why did they subsequently post? Seems that either the pressure had some bearing, or there wasn't a legitimate alignment-indicative reason for lurking in the first place.

there wasn't a legitimate alignment-indicative reason for lurking in the first place.

You should perhaps consider this option a bit more heavily.

You know exactly why I am avoiding the thread and why I take issue with it, but I cannot explain beyond what I just said via the ruleset, and you know this and are exploiting it.

I think this is probably true. What I'm not sure of yet is whether this is alignment indicative or simply highlight's overaggression in BM's playstyle.

Eh I dunno if I was over-aggressive. Maybe I guess...I just wanted to get things rolling, get people posting and taking positions. I fundamentally disagree with you (and Prism) on there being town reasons for lurking - and even taking alignments aside, i don't think it was unreasonable to challenge someone on deliberately and conspicuously trying to avoid attention in this game. I was probably slightly more direct because they were an SE rather than a newbie.

All that said, I can sort of appreciate where you're coming from. I've been in a situation before where I was called out for lurking because I was active in most, but not all, games. And I was hampered by the rule about not referring to ongoing games in being able to defend myself. However, the difference that stands out to me is - when i was lurking in that game, it was because the game was producing like 50 pages a day and I simply couldn't keep up with all the games. I don't think that excuse holds in a game with 1-2 pages, and it takes like 20 seconds to just say something.

As I've said, it can be seen as a bit angle-shooty, so I'm gonna drop it and move on. I'll have my view, you can have yours, and others will form theirs.

Eh I dunno if I was over-aggressive. Maybe I guess...I just wanted to get things rolling, get people posting and taking positions.

I fundamentally disagree with you (and Prism) on there being town reasons for lurking

- and even taking alignments aside, i don't think it was unreasonable to challenge someone on deliberately and conspicuously trying to avoid attention in this game. I was probably slightly more direct because they were an SE rather than a newbie.

All that said, I can sort of appreciate where you're coming from. I've been in a situation before where I was called out for lurking because I was active in most, but not all, games. And I was hampered by the rule about not referring to ongoing games in being able to defend myself. However, the difference that stands out to me is - when i was lurking in that game, it was because the game was producing like 50 pages a day and I simply couldn't keep up with all the games. I don't think that excuse holds in a game with 1-2 pages, and it takes like 20 seconds to just say something.

As I've said, it can be seen as a bit angle-shooty, so I'm gonna drop it and move on. I'll have my view, you can have yours, and others will form theirs.

That's the thing, it only seems like an angle-shoot because you consistently reinforce the bolded statement when we have both stated that we're not arguing that lurking is pro-town, rather alignment neutral.

That's an acceptable argument to make, although I tend to disagree, and more crucially

it's not an argument Prism explicitly made themselves

. Instead, Prism shaded me from the sidelines with an inference that I was scum because I had inside-knowledge of why he would be lurking here:

You wondered why I'm avoiding the thread. You know exactly why I am avoiding the thread

To be clear, I have no idea why you would be deliberately avoiding the thread as town - which is precisely my point.

Doubtful.

Beyond the above, which is currently one of the 2 main reasons I am suspicious of Prism-slot (the other being the hesitance to commit to a meaningful vote), we are arguing over a linguistic difference and a relatively trivial difference in opinion about whether lurking is AI (I maintain it very often is).

some thoughts:

On balance, Wu Wei is probably the towniest player. I don't necessarily think he stands his ground as strongly as he did, as scum, especially after Prism repped out. Seems a relatively high-risk, low-reward play as scum anyway (just put them in the spotlight, no chance to buddy someone, not really protecting anyone).
Endlessdark is basically in the same place as me on suspects.
Enchant is quiet but that's more their town meta than scum meta.
Dew feels fairly genuine.
Cook is very quiet here, wouldn't be surprised if he was scum.
I'm very wary of the 2 other SE slots (Wheme and Lunar) - their interaction doesn't make a lot of sense and stands out.

So I'm gonna say 2 scum within: Wheme, Lunar, Cook and Qspaces

yeah and Prism's interaction towards you was weird too. I guess you're right it's mainly been 1-way traffic though.

Wait why are we voting Battle Mage?

My last 2 posts sort of lay out the reasoning, the summary being my perception of Battle Mage not genuinely trying to find mafia.

I’ve quoted a few of Battle Mage’s posts and the ones I’ve quoted I see them as trying to solve so I’m not really sure what you are talking about with Battle Mage not trying to find mafia.

[Cookie Monster]

I’m not inclined to vote Battle Mage right now

[Cookie Monster]

I think Cook is a much better vote. There doesn't seem to be any motivation in Cook's posts to find mafia.

Wait why are we voting Battle Mage?

My last 2 posts sort of lay out the reasoning, the summary being my perception of Battle Mage not genuinely trying to find mafia.

These contradict each other especially as you are voting Battle Mage

[Cookie Monster]

This is where I’m going to vote
VOTE: endlessdark