Newbie 2072: All Guns Blazing!! - Ended

[Zyla]

See, Luke was scum in our last game, and the law of averages...

Jk, I won't let him pocket me this time!
VOTE: Lukewarm

[Zyla]

Ah. I'm recalling the fact that I saw NM get WotM'd in the open queue

[Zyla]

Since Val and Vote both start with V and linguistic logic will not be denied

portia and pavowski both start with a p, which makes u teammates try to fight this undeniable logic

Luke! Vote Marci, she's masonhunting!

[Zyla]

I'm not gonna fall for that again, you scum

[Zyla]

Someday we need to be on a mason team together, 'twould be hilarious

[Zyla]

Yeah, Val's first post tracks

[Zyla]

Maybe so, but he's certainly started a discussion. And one of the main things you'll find if you search for "what to do day 1" is to try and split the room and see *how* people take sides so that you can see if they take sides the same way with more "important" discussion later on

[Zyla]

The idea that any town player would already be ready to decide who should be the Day 1 elim on page 2 baffles me

If you try and read my confident conclusion through the lens of a newbie player who has 100% accuracy at deducing scum post-1, that it might help unbaffle you.

Of course, if it turns out I am wrong this time, then I might just have to face up to the fact that my post-1 reads may be NAI, but until I see the flip, I won't know that, will I?

As you will see if you read further into 2068, I eventually decided someone else was acting more scummy than my post-1 pick, and moved my vote to them. The person I ended up scumreading ended up being a town PR, so in hindsight, it turns out I should have just stuck to my guns on that first post-1 read. Stands to reason I will take that experience into my future games, no?

7for7 is probably not the best way to play tbh

[Zyla]

Maybe Val is just strange.

Aren't all the best people?

Also, you only need to put 'v' or 'uv' inside the square brackets, personally I find that much easier than locating the button


Pedit: I dunno, you just through out a buzzword yourself... /jk
Honestly though, I think that's the only serious post of mine that's really "buzzy"

[Zyla]

By the way, does anyone else have an opinion if Zyla's post counts as a potential Buzzword scumtell?

From what I can see, the 7for7 is the only one she has used, so I think it is too early to say that -- and now that you have pointed it out, it will likely never be useful to sort her.

However, I am pretty confident in my ability to have a solid read on her by the end of Day 1 -- I will keep you posted

I on the other hand am confident that I need to look over Luke's posts 5 times, never trust a gut read, and at least take into consideration anything everyone else says about him. (Yes, I should be doing that with everyone, but still)

[Zyla]

He correctly read me as scum in Newbie 2065 and easily pocketed me in 2067, yeah

[Zyla]

According to the article, yes

But also, the 7for7 was partially referencing the fact that there was a 0for0 claim that someone made in our previous game about how they never lost a particular type of game (but failed to mention it wasn't one they'd ever played)

[Zyla]

Ah here we go -- I have my eye on Zyla a bit already because [ongoing games] but it's more of a lean than a read at this point

I'm going to say that I'm a little bit confused since we aren't in any games together. Since we can talk about 2068, which we were both in, does that do anything to help or harm me in your eyes?

For the record on my part: I do not think Not_Mafia [...] should be the lim today

Why not? Sure we shouldn't eliminate him right now, as it's early in the day, but most people seem to agree that they're hard to read and would be an easy mis-elim, which I at least would rather do the most likely miselim on day 1 and let someone else contribute to the thread

Interesting choice of quote from Alstro's 73. Seems like this one would be the one actually relevant to the topic at hand:

As a result, Luke's response threw me off a bit because it seemed to be taking it completely at face value. So I wasn't sure if Luke was, like, playing along, or...?

Now hold on a second. If I'm reading this correctly, Luke was saying that Alstro was taking

you

seriously. That doesn't mean they were taking you RVS post seriously. (And yes, it's dressed up and entertaining, but it's still RVS) You both really seem to like taking what the other person is saying out of context

[Zyla]

I had just skimmed through marci's ISOs to see her first vote, and I can confirm that

[Zyla]

Mainly because I don't want to put too much stock in what most people seem to agree when I've not played with him, and I don't think I've yet read a newbie game with him in it.

Early days, but I haven't yet seen anything to suggest he will be trouble, or any harder to read than anyone else in the game.

In the one I read, it seemed to be consistent with his normal (from the meta-reading I did out of curiosity) except for the fact that he doesn't do quickhammers in newbies

As for the second part, he's claimed himself that he's not voting seriously, which at least to me seems like an anti-town red flag (whether or not he's scum), what's your thought on that?

Also, my main thing was that you said flat out he wasn't the vote today; wouldn't you be willing to eliminate him if more information pointed to him being scummy?

[Zyla]

There are a few people not voting seriously at this point; you, Zyla, among them, I beleive. If he maintains that position when we are further in the game and have good cause to be voting people seriously and he isn't, we can talk again.

To clarify, I am referring to his post 71, which I at least find... interesting. RVS votes are a bit different than not voting someone you think is scummy

I do think it would be a decent time to retract my RVS though, so
UNVOTE: Lukewarm

[Zyla]

It was more the fact that you seemed almost too sure of NM not being the play for today if that makes sense

[Zyla]

I am starting to feel a little bit like I am being asked if I am a Mason with NM. I can start to understand where you get your reputation for that sort of thing from.

Lmao, no that's because I literally said "That joke sounded more like you were claiming Mason" (not exact words) to someone.
Hilariously, Luke was the actual Mason in the game

[Zyla]

You think it is better to just go ahead and shoot the easy mis-elim target, then for us to try and scum hunt?

Nah, my thoughts are that we should scum hunt, and then lim the person who seems to be the most anti-town/least pro-town. I was mostly playing devil's advocate since Val seemed too sure that we shouldn't vote N_M so I made a weak case for why we should.

If no one else seems scummier than N_M, we'll eliminate him, but I definitely want to try and find other people first, especially if he is - as you say - a good scum hunter

[Zyla]

It's pretty consistent, yeah, he ends up giving more input when there's more info

[Zyla]

Disclaimer, just quickly caught back up, these are what caught my attention, there will be more, and I'm going to go back through again with and without ISOs

I think Zyla is hanging back where she doesn't normally seem to, which is not a great look.

Apologies on this, something IRL that I thought had been dealt with came back to bite me, so I had less free time than expected.
Should be able to get back to at least semi-regular posting soon though

My answer to both of these is that I am hoping the response of the rest of the player list to Lukes 'case' against me will help me do just that.

I'm definitely noting this statement. It's no one's job to defend another player, town or otherwise, unless they have information saying that getting that person eliminated is a bad idea. Luke made a case for you being scum, and whether or not I agree with it, I want to see your reasons or explanations, not Pav or alstro's

I do feel like I should be pretty obviously in my town game for anyone who has played with me before, especially [..] Zyla

This is also kind of interesting to me however, we've established in our previous game that I'm not yet sure on how to differentiate town! and scum!Luke, so why would it be obvious?

[Zyla]

These ISO posts are not going to be scum or town cases, just my general read and a few posts that I wanted to comment on

Alstro - Town Lean

[.. I was] comparing your town play in 2068 with your scum play in The Backrooms (2065), and at the time I thought I was seeing more in line with 2065. The most recent string of posts (starting 140ish) makes me feel better, putting you more at a null.

Fair enough, I'm not quite sure I see it, but that seems reasonable

At the time of [my] voting, your ISO .. had mostly questions to other people (68, 70, 84, 119) ... and ... which is fair but in my opinion not the most productive area of focus.

How come? Questions seem essential in this game to me, they let you see where people are coming from, and can be helpful in both creating useful cases and discarding poor ones. Readlists and the like are useful, but IME they're most useful in something that you talk about with other people - when they ask questions about them

So, I don't know if what the article is saying about [self-voting] being "unreadable and inherently unhelpful" is necessarily true in this case.

The article does

mostly

seem to be about RVS votes, so while it does mention scum self-hammers, I mostly read it as self-RVS being bad more than anything

[Zyla]

Skipping Luke for double ISO with Val

Marci - Null

[In response to 13-23]
yeah it was a scum team accusation

To clarify if anyone is still confused, I did know that it was a (joking) scum team accusation, but at least to me it's a funny joke with Luke

[Zyla]

Not_Mafia - Null

It's a game, and you seem to be having fun, which is good. I hope Luke is correct that you're good at scumhunting
Also, I may have said that I was down for PE earlier (partially for reactions), but I'm down for you helping us remember that it is, after all, just a game. Apologies if I seemed rude earlier

If I were voting seriously at this point, I'd be voting Lukewarm

Has this changed with more information? If it's Luke or Val today, would you still pick Luke?

[Zyla]

And to be frank, I would have expected to see the similarities in how this is playing out in my town game. Where I reached 100% certainty that T3 was scum, and then whipped up the votes

can anyone confirm?

I believe he is referring to our Newbie 2065

[Zyla]

Portia - Null Scum

There’s something about the implicit contradiction in that post that just rings town to me.

I don't know about this. Too scummy to be scum just doesn't seem very reliable.

I was finding your tunnel unhelpful.
..
I don’t think you v p person is tvt.

As for the earlier question about how I could not like the 1v1 and still find it alignment/tone indicative

Now hold on a moment, you didn't say you didn't like it, you said it wasn't useful, there's a big difference there

Zola

Hehe, that's a new spelling

[Zyla]

Umlaut and Luke vs Val will wait until tomorrow as something just came up and I'll need to head to bed after dealing with it

[Zyla]

Umlaut - Null

[*]140 -- another tell here: explicitly saying "I'm unvoting because it's not RVS" as if RVS were a formalized game phase is something that more often comes from scum

Hold on a moment there, I unvoted because I didn't feel

my

RVS vote was necessary, no it's not a formal stage, but I didn't feel that my vote would be useful any further so I retracted it.

There's not really any good way to engage with someone who is insisting you are mafia, though. Like what is he supposed to say, "Oh well you make a good point there, maybe I'm scum after all"?

"I can see where you're coming from, but here's why I did it as town" seems reasonable to me

[Zyla]

Luke and Val - SvT
Honestly, this is just a total mess. I was trying to read opposite of what my gut was telling me, but Luke was making a lot of sense, and I was agreeing with him and thinking he was town. Then comes 239. I... have no words tbh, I don't know how this could ever be a good move in this situation. And then he starts begging for votes on Val, and honestly becomes the most confusing 1v1 I've read so far. I do find it hard to believe that they're both town, and even harder that they're both scum, at this point, but I don't think it's clear at this point who's who.

If we do elim within [me, Val], and the consensus is to flip me -- then Val should always be investigated if we have any investigative abilities.

If you're as sure as you claim to be about this, then to me Val seems almost like an auto-elim tomorrow if you flip town, and you an almost auto-elim tomorrow if Val flips town. Why would I want to investigate you overnight? And if it's anything but Cop, would it even be worth it? I doubt scum team would have someone under so much suspicion do the kill

[Zyla]

Luke and Val - SvT
Honestly, this is just a total mess. I was trying to read opposite of what my gut was telling me, but Luke was making a lot of sense, and I was agreeing with him and thinking he was town. Then comes 239. I... have no words tbh, I don't know how this could ever be a good move in this situation. And then he starts begging for votes on Val, and honestly becomes the most confusing 1v1 I've read so far. I do find it hard to believe that they're both town, and even harder that they're both scum, at this point, but I don't think it's clear at this point who's who.

Why can't this be TvT? I understand why Luke and Val both insist it can't be, because they both (either genuinely or artificially) just

know with such certainty

that the other one is scum and so it seems obvious from internally that they are in a battle of Good Versus Evil. But I don't see it as nearly so certain from an outside perspective and I'm not sure why you do. What precludes them just being two terrifically tunneled townsfolk?

It's not that it

can't

be, it's that I feel that's it's a good bit greater than random a chance that there's it's SvT. At this point I'm still unsure of which one is more likely than the other though, which is why it's a combined read of SvT rather than individual reads of scummy or towny

With that, I am tapped out! See you guys tomorrow

I'm.. not really liking the self imposed post limits here. Like don't post more than you want to, but not posting because of an arbitrary limit you set?

[Zyla]

VOTE: Zyla because I think you're hedging. You said you think Luke/Val is SvT but you're not sure which way. If you think there's scum on one side, you must have an opinion, even if it's only an inkling.

I'm leaning Val as scum, but it's 60/40 right now. Neither of them are looking good in my eyes, but it seems way too early in the thread for it to be bussing, which is honestly the only reason I think there's only one scum between them

[Zyla]

val seems a bit more aggressive rn imo

That's a fair assesment. We are approaching page 15, and I'm getting a little frustrated that everyone seems content to sit back and watch.

I can't speak for everyone, but I'm recovering from something right now, and the harsh tone of the thread is making it harder for me to enjoy the game, and thus harder to play. It's not that I'm content to sit and watch as much as that I feel engaging with it too much isn't a good idea for me

I think we all need to take a step back and remember that we're doing this to have

fun

[Zyla]

Please explain the difference between not liking it [and not] finding it useful. To me they confirm the same idea.

And there was nothing about the post I called out as scummy. Rather it’s two surface ideas that don’t cohere. And the willingness to post both in one spelled a lack of self [awareness]. Do you disagree?

I don't particularly like the Luke/Val 1v1, it's been messy and I feel like it's gone on a bit too long, with them focusing too little on players outside of each other. I find it

useful

because it's allowed me to decide that there's most likely at least one scum there.
I would think the fact that it causes you to think that's there's scum in [Luke, Val] would mean it was useful, whether or not you liked it

[Zyla]

If I were voting seriously at this point, I'd be voting Lukewarm

Has this changed with more information? If it's Luke or Val today, would you still pick Luke?

Still waiting for Not_Mafia to respond to this btw

[Zyla]

As I mentioned a few posts ago, I think Zyla is coasting, as I don't see a lot of substance out of her posts and not a lot of evidence of hunting or analysis of the game.

I thought that the post for almost everyone was pretty decent work on my end, although apparently I missed doing yours somehow.
I gave clear reads, clarified positions on a couple things, asked questions when I had them, overall I'm not sure what I'm missing in your eyes

[Zyla]

Compiled Reads list for ease of reference

Alstro - Town Lean - 255
Pav - Slight Town Lean -

Seems to be genuinely trying to sort

Marci - Null - 256
Not_Mafia - Null - 257
Umlaut - Null - 296

Portia - Null Scum - 264

One probable Scum in

Luke - Null Town
Val - Null Scum

Luke has definitely not been playing up to what I've seen before, but page 15, it seemed like he was trying to move away from the 1v1 and interact with the thread as a whole, but Val was dragging him back in

[Zyla]

Yeah

[Zyla]

VOTE: Pukewarm

What's your reasoning behind this?

[Zyla]

Spoiler:

Ah here we go -- I have my eye on Zyla a bit already because [ongoing games] but it's more of a lean than a read at this point

I'm going to say that I'm a little bit confused since we aren't in any games together. Since we can talk about 2068, which we were both in, does that do anything to help or harm me in your eyes?

Not meaningful content.

I was asking alstro a question about their read on me, I fail to see why that doesn't count as meaningful

Spoiler:

For the record on my part: I do not think Not_Mafia [...] should be the lim today

Why not? Sure we shouldn't eliminate him right now, as it's early in the day, but most people seem to agree that they're hard to read and would be an easy mis-elim, which I at least would rather do the most likely miselim on day 1 and let someone else contribute to the thread

Not

completely

empty but an easy thing to comment on and not town-indicative, and rang some "fake activity" bells in my head in that it's an easy low-risk thing to comment on and appear to be contributing.

I feel like your missing my context here. I wanted to see how Val would react, I commented more in 142 and 151, it was a purposeful weak case to see what Val said. And personally, I think the answers I got out of it can potentially be helpful in the future

Spoiler:

Interesting choice of quote from Alstro's 73. Seems like this one would be the one actually relevant to the topic at hand:

As a result, Luke's response threw me off a bit because it seemed to be taking it completely at face value. So I wasn't sure if Luke was, like, playing along, or...?

Now hold on a second. If I'm reading this correctly, Luke was saying that Alstro was taking

you

seriously. That doesn't mean they were taking you RVS post seriously. (And yes, it's dressed up and entertaining, but it's still RVS) You both really seem to like taking what the other person is saying out of context

"You're both being silly" is an obvious point and an easy way to position oneself as the voice of reason.

That part wasn't even really about reading them, just general frustration

Mainly because I don't want to put too much stock in what most people seem to agree when I've not played with him, and I don't think I've yet read a newbie game with him in it.

Early days, but I haven't yet seen anything to suggest he will be trouble, or any harder to read than anyone else in the game.

In the one I read, it seemed to be consistent with his normal (from the meta-reading I did out of curiosity) except for the fact that he doesn't do quickhammers in newbies

As for the second part, he's claimed himself that he's not voting seriously, which at least to me seems like an anti-town red flag (whether or not he's scum), what's your thought on that?

Also, my main thing was that you said flat out he wasn't the vote today; wouldn't you be willing to eliminate him if more information pointed to him being scummy?

The first two parts seem like easy observations and the question in the third is just weird and fake-seeming to me ("Would you be willing to eliminate someone if evidence says they are scum?" Is that really a question you need to ask?)

1st one is an easy observation, yes, but Val claimed to not have the information so I gave it to him
2nd is a question. I wanted Val to give an opinion.
3rd has an obvious answer of yes in most cases, yes, but

how

he answers yes may have potential if the reason he seemed sure about not wanting to vote N_M was because they were teamed together

[Zyla]

Also, I'm noting that Not_Mafia's 426 was over 2 hours after being told that his vote didn't count. Any plans to vote Lukewarm or someone else? The purpose for your vote on Umlaut is gone, as they're giving good activity now that V/LA is over

[Zyla]

@Alstro, about 73, Mini Normal 2218 has just concluded, so I'm interested in hearing what your thoughts were

[Zyla]

I'm curious what she's looking for from Alstro above because I'm trying to figure out if I actually TR Alstro or if I'm just gutfeeling it there.

At least IMO, knowing why someone is reading me one way seems like a good way to understand their motivations in the game, even if someone's wrong in reading me as scum they can be reading me that way for decent reasons or poor ones; the connection between this and my Normal could help me decide which one I think it is

[Zyla]

@Alstro, about 73, Mini Normal 2218 has just concluded, so I'm interested in hearing what your thoughts were

This is actually not the game I was following >.< Sorry... I know it's counterintuitive -- it was actually referring to a game you aren't in, but something involving you in Newbie Backrooms came up as a topic of conversation and I was using that. But since you went to the trouble of linking this mini normal, I checked your role and did a quick read of the ISO (btw, I'm with you on the ISO-lation thing you mentioned in that game ). One thing I noticed which I haven't realized is that Backrooms was your first game (I think? Correct me if I'm wrong), which really diminishes my confidence in being able to apply any meta based on that since I know style changes faster for newer players... The hunch I was running on was pretty much purely based on style meta so that could change quickly. It's also harder just because you've been around less (which just to be clear I am NOT reading you for; I totally get real-life stuff and I do hope everything is okay), so I'm not sure how much any differences in mini normal 2218 and this game are indicative of anything other than real-life conditions.

What I will say is that I do see similarities in your post style in that mini normal and this game, in terms of tone, length, general content, which is reassuring although not enough to push you to a full TR in this game. On that note..

Haha, not what I was expecting, but I can track you there

[Zyla]

Yeah, and with 2 days or so left after they come in, it's not gonna be easy to read them before the end of day

For me that leaves Val, NM, and
VOTE: Umlaut
I'm just kind of having trouble seeing them actually trying to sort people

[Zyla]

Ok, I'm getting slightly annoyed at this point, especially with his past two posts
VOTE: Not Mafia
I have no way of telling if he's scum or town, because he seems to be refusing to actually participate in the game. He's thrown a couple of votes around, but refused to actually say why, and he doesn't seem to want to change that any time soon.

[Zyla]

Intent to hammer, then

Shrek, any final reads or statements?

[Zyla]

Mood


Also, apologies, I thought I was going to be able to check back in earlier in the day.
I was also understanding that we had until midnight tonight

[Zyla]

That was not a kill I was expecting, and I don't see how it makes sense coming from scum!Luke tbh

Not_Mafia, since you're convinced that Luke is scum, could you make an actual case against him?
Until you do
VOTE: Not_Mafia

[Zyla]

Pav and Alstro are pretty towny to me
Luke is still Null Town for me, because the NK doesn't make sense to me for Luke, but neither does the tunneling on Val yesterday
Marci is Null still, but townier than yesterday
Umlaut was one of my big 3 questions other than Shrek, and they and NM were on the Shrek wagon, so if NM is town, Umlaut is probably scum imo
I really think the way that Not_Mafia is playing is anti-town, but I'm not sure whether they're scum or just a nuisance

[Zyla]

I've got to head out for a bit though, so I'll make more in depth posts when I can

[Zyla]

Not a hard-and-fast term, but given that the prospect of a NM elimination was pretty much "meh" on d1 and Zyla was never really in serious danger of getting eliminated -- especially when you voted her -- I would consider those easy votes

So easy as in easy to throw around more than easy as in LHF?

Marci is Null still, but townier than yesterday

Why is Marci townier today?

Less

today

really, and more just since I last posted my reads list, bad wording on my part. Her posts after that point were looking townier to me than the ones before it, so she's just not one of my major suspects atm

[Zyla]

I didn't even notice Val's PR-ish posts, lmao

I had been trying to draw the nk, but I think I went too far with my fake crumbing
Sorry T3 for putting you in an awkward spot there ^^'

[Zyla]

Zyla, were you fake crumbing masons? Part of the reason I scumread your slot was because I thought you were hinting masons when I knew there were none in the game.

Nope

Haha, not what I was expecting, but I can track you there

Yeah, Val's first post tracks

Why would I want to investigate you overnight? And if it's anything but Cop, would it even be worth it?

[Zyla]

The only masons bit was the joke with Luke, but I guess it wasn't realized that it was just a complete joke

[Zyla]

I am curious now, @Pav & Marci, is the reason that I didn't get NK'd the fact that there wasn't a possibility of tracker in the game?

[Zyla]

I would play it, but I'm not ready to do two games at one time and I already signed up for a different one ^^'