Newbie 2088 | Game Over

[MalcolmTucker]

Hello all.

[MalcolmTucker]

Hello everyone, look forward to playing with you

Assuming this is your first game on the site? Have you played before elsewhere at all?

[MalcolmTucker]

What were your results?

two innos on myself
I wasn't sure how that role could be in a newbie game
so used it to triple check

newbies if you can't tell this is a dumb joke

let's not talk anymore about PRs

Amused by the idea of a newbie panicking that someone's revealed this early on.

[MalcolmTucker]

Well done, you got me.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm not really sure there's much to say about it at the moment - we're on page two of this thread and it's difficult to make any particular assessment beyond the vibes you're get from someone.

I typically struggle to say all that much about who I'm TR'ing or not early on because I largely rely on looking at detailed past interactions/lack of interactions between players and voting records once we get to that point. You're not really saying anything or making any actual accusations beyond the initial vibes you're getting from people, which could either read as a townie trying to kick the game into life, or a mafia player either trying to steer the direction of the town or appear active and keen on throwing around accusations.

As for my own post which set you off, was just a joke. At this point it's largely up to you whether you believe that or not.

[MalcolmTucker]

*you're getting, sorry, in first par

[MalcolmTucker]

I presented that with a joking tone, but post 32 is the towniest post in the game so far, so that's cool.

What about it struck you as particularly townie, out of interest? I tend to struggle early on to read particular posts as townie/mafia early on and if I were playing with people I've played with before I'd typically be more likely to judge any changes in how they're behaviour or approaching the game.

[MalcolmTucker]

in the meantime
how about everyone just says how we will know if they are scum
what are your tells?
thanks

∆this is a serious question
I'll start
when I'm scum I have a hard time relaxing
and I find it hard to stay motivated and be as active
if the game state stalls and TTTT isn't stirring up shit
he be scum

I tend to try to replicate my approach to the game if I'm mafia to not create suspicion but there's probably some subtle differences. Maybe a bit more careful - as a vanilla townie if I'm not in the know and have a lot to catch up on I can potentially miss or confuse key clues. But if I'm mafia I'm unlikely to do that I'd say barring a major error.

[MalcolmTucker]

Unsure re post 29, it certainly didn't look like a proper, full-on attempt to join a bandwagon to get rid of me, because I'd assume even the most desperate player wouldn't expect people to jump on a single target this early, but could absolutely be a mafia player just trying to appear engaged and keen to throw out some casual accusations instead of being too comfortable sitting back and contributing little. Intrigued to see how they approach the game going forward.

[MalcolmTucker]

Good post. It's all we've got so far. You got my vote.

VOTE: MalcomTucker

Well done, you got me.

Both of these responses appear to miss the point of my post :/

I assumed the point was to get the ball rolling. By sheeping you and trying to put extra pressure on malcom, I was doing my part. If I assumed the point of your post incorrectly, what was the point of your post?

I mean you can get the "ball rolling" on someone early doors but generally you'd want to give some good reasoning for doing so. Is there anything about me that you thought had been particularly suspicious so far, or were you just jumping on the bandwagon for the hell of it?

[MalcolmTucker]

New thoughts on ofmericia:

The timing of their post voting Malcom with me is suspect. They have not been posting in the thread for over 24 hours, I made my post and the replied so fast. And only replied to the most recent post.

This feels like they have been reading along, but not sure what to post, and so not posting. Thread avoidance is kinda scummy.

I had made a post stating that "I count two players are yet to post" then when I hit post your post stopped my post from going through. And it was better content and a better driving force to get the game going. So I switched my post. The timing of us both being online at that time shouldn't really show anything about my alignment imo, it makes me scum lean on you.

Malcom's response to the double vote doesn't really give me scum vibes.

I liked the read list from lukewarm, but the response and sort of opportunistic jump on me who put myself in an easy to lynch spot with already 2 votes on me is major red flag.

VOTE: Lukewarm

Considering Lukewarm had always subjected me to some initial scrutiny I'm not seeing how this is particularly suspect or mafia lean at this point? It seems fairly clear Lukewarm is obviously an active and heavily involved player who likes to throw out reads and accusations early on based on the initial info to get the game going. It's not as if you've solely been honed in on for immediate elimination, is it?

[MalcolmTucker]

*had already, not always, my ability to type down the drain here

[MalcolmTucker]

So...you liked his list and thought it seemed sensible, but the moment he directed his heat onto you, you've switched it up and you're now voting for him? That doesn't make any particular sense to me unless you're just generally voting for whoever is either the bandwagon or whoever accuses you at the moment. Why would you opt for someone you thought was putting forward decent analysis the moment they turn on you?

[MalcolmTucker]

I actually the sudden switch to voting for Lukewarm is arguably more interesting/suspect than the initial copied vote.

The initial vote could at least hypothetically be read as ofmerica trusting Lukewarm's take and being willing to get onboard with that to put some pressure on myself.

The sudden change from willingly trusting Lukewarm's takes to actively suspecting/voting for them the moment that heat is turned back on ofmerica is somewhat odd. Was that level of early trust only reliant upon Lukewarm not suspecting ofmerica at all?

But would be interested to see their experience level...could just a new player just sussing things out.

[MalcolmTucker]

I knew the point of your post. Thanks for trying to explain further but again, I get it, you wanted to get the game going with actual content instead of random votes and jokes as posts.

and yet your vote is still on Lukewarm

My reason for voting Lukewarm isn't for that initial read list lol.

I'm not particularly sure why your vote is on Lukewarm though, beyond them voting for you?

[MalcolmTucker]

you are intentionally making it difficult to sort you by ignoring this question
this is anti-town regardless of your alignment

Yeah this is very odd, I'd say it reads a bit like an inexperienced player accidentally drawing heat onto themselves, but there's just no reason at all to continually ignore what is an incredibly basic question so we can judge what someone is like as a player.

[MalcolmTucker]

By the way, hi, I'm clidd, It's been a while since my last contact with the forum, so I imagine my engagement will be slow this day, at least until I pick up the pace again, but I'm available for questions/etc.

Also, the reason I'm voting furtiveglance is basically because of his brief participation followed by a long disappearance, which reflects me as a potential newbie feeling pressured by the acquisition of a red role. Or maybe an external mishap nai, but considering I don't read minds my initial impression holds.

Be interesting to see whether they post again soon. At this point could just be someone who's busy for a couple of days and not had much time to play, would strike me as much more suspect if they'd started off with a flurry of activity before disappearing once things got heated. But from what I can see it's just two posts so far and nobody was really under interrogation when they last said anything.

[MalcolmTucker]

I presented that with a joking tone, but post 32 is the towniest post in the game so far, so that's cool.

Would you mind explaining what you found so towny about 32, Lukewarm?

I was somewhat surprised by this because I thought it was, all things considered, a fairly basic post from me which would've been unlikely to sway someone either way - like I said it was early game and I'd not had much to go on so far.

But I think Lukewarm was very much just kinda going on vibes initially. The vote for me was based on a single joking post and I think it was primarily just an attempt to prod me and get the game going to see what happened from there. My reply seemingly just chimed with what they'd expect from a town player, unlike ofmerica.

[MalcolmTucker]

When I put myself in an inexperienced point of view, my sheep vote actually looks bad. I can see inexperienced players finding that really scummy and would be suicide for a noob scum to try, which they probably never would as scums goal should be to avoid that kind of attention.

This post makes my head hurt. (Although TT, I think this was their way for saying they are experienced).

It feels like you are trying to say that no experienced scum would make that post, but it feels incredibly disengenuous to the post.

I honestly can't tell if this is a bad take because scum, or a bad take because they are secure ok the knowledge they are town. But regardless, it's a bad take.

I am pinged by the tonal shift of acting like there was nothing wrong with their sheep vote, to now acting like that vote was so bad that no scum would actually make it. So in context, feels more like a bad take because scum.

Struggling to figure out here if this is just a newbie genuinely a bit all at sea as they try to gauge how to play the game properly, or a panicked mafia team member contradicting themselves now they've come under suspicion early on. The play just seems so irrational for someone risking getting caught but in that regard would chime with a mafia member who made one bad call early on and kept digging deeper.

[MalcolmTucker]

how about everyone just says how we will know if they are scum
what are your tells?

I'm not sure I like this. I know it is adressed to the entire playerlist, but inviting our scumteam to reflect on their scumplay and identify any weaknesses in it right at the start of this game doesn't appear to be in towns interest, whether they share the results of that introspection or not.

If they do, and respond with legitimate self-meta, then they will only really be sharing what they intend to avoid this game, and I don't see how the answers to the question will be useful in sorting.

That said, I see no scum motivation for having asked the question either, and I get the overall sense of a legitimate attempt to spark discussion. I just don't think TTTT is going to get what TTTT

thinks

they are going to get from it, and they should probably think on that before asking it again in other games if they are town here, which overall is how I perceive that slot.

Along similar lines though you could also argue someone dodging the question could be a bit of a potential tell further down the line if they don't read it in the same way.

[MalcolmTucker]

When I put myself in an inexperienced point of view, my sheep vote actually looks bad. I can see inexperienced players finding that really scummy and would be suicide for a noob scum to try, which they probably never would as scums goal should be to avoid that kind of attention.

This post makes my head hurt. (Although TT, I think this was their way for saying they are experienced).

It feels like you are trying to say that no experienced scum would make that post, but it feels incredibly disengenuous to the post.

I honestly can't tell if this is a bad take because scum, or a bad take because they are secure ok the knowledge they are town. But regardless, it's a bad take.

I am pinged by the tonal shift of acting like there was nothing wrong with their sheep vote, to now acting like that vote was so bad that no scum would actually make it. So in context, feels more like a bad take because scum.

No INexperienced scum would make that post. Just trying to reflect on it objectively. Trying to see what the big deal was about a sheep vote. Need to find out if the shade on me is legit or scum driven.

Still somewhat confused by the logic here although I may be misunderstanding you, because from what I'm getting here your argument is simultaneously that an inexperienced mafia player wouldn't have made that post, but that there was also nothing inherently wrong with said post anyway? I'm not sure how both of these can reasonably follow the same line of thinking. Either the post was sketchy or it wasn't.

And, again, from what I can see you've still not replied to TT's post asking how much playing experience you have. Even when the question was posed in big and bold letters.

[MalcolmTucker]

Is there a way to post and stay on the page? I keep clicking view your submitted post

When you post there should be an option to go to your most recently submitted post.

[MalcolmTucker]

Yeah my initial thoughts re Furtive are unsure newbie just sussing out the game. You'd reckon a mafia player would be more likely to search through for any accusations being put out there against them, or would perhaps be given advance warning by their teammate if they were around at the time.

And as I say, their initial inactivity after the first couple of posts wasn't spurred by anything being directed toward them...just strikes me as likely they were perhaps busy or something.

[MalcolmTucker]

How does having three posters they'd be content to have a bandwagon on indicate they're townreading everyone? From that post they've given a conclusive list of people they are willing to vote for.

[MalcolmTucker]

I would be interested in hearing more detail on Eyes' reads since they've only made a few posts so far and yet seem to have a fairly conclusive idea of where they are re certain posters. Is it mostly just a feeling so far or anything more substantive?

[MalcolmTucker]

I'd be interested to hear their reasoning going forward, agreed on that, just I wouldn't say they're TR'ing everyone when they've outlined who they'd be content to vote for thus far.

[MalcolmTucker]

I said it looked like it, saying you won't oppose a wagon is not the equivalent of a scum read.

Well yeah, but it's also very much not a TR is it?

[MalcolmTucker]

I would be interested in hearing more detail on Eyes' reads since they've only made a few posts so far and yet seem to have a fairly conclusive idea of where they are re certain posters. Is it mostly just a feeling so far or anything more substantive?

Everything boils down to feelings on day one. I may feel like someone is playing like a townie or that someone is playing like I would play as a PR, but without any conclusive information this is still just my feelings.

That's fair enough but if you're giving a proper list of where you're ranking each player at the moment, some extra details on why you in particular believe somebody to be more town than someone else is fair enough to ask for I think.

[MalcolmTucker]

that's E-1
nobody vote for ofmercia without first stating intent to hammer and giving them and everyone else a chance to discuss
we have a loooong time left in day1 and there is no need to rush anything

I'm increasingly at a point where I'm very much leaning toward getting rid of ofmerica. I'm generally wary to dive into a proper bandwagon on a newbie early on day one but their behaviour has been incredibly suspicious so far.

The initial vote for me and sudden clip wasn't too suspect in itself, but the simultaneous claim that it both wasn't problematic and that it wasn't something inexperienced mafia would do felt really weird - on the one hand trying to say they did nothing wrong, on the other hand trying to say they made an error but it wasn't the type of mistake a mafia team member would make.

Likewise the sudden transition to voting for Lukewarm just felt inherently strange when they'd seemingly trusted Lukewarm's reads right up until the heat was turned back on them.

And then there's ignoring your question re mafia experience despite replying regularly. In fact the replies in general are giving me a bit of a mafia vibe - posting regularly enough to stay in the game and avoid being seen as slinking off, while still giving relatively short and limited replies to avoid further incrimination.

[MalcolmTucker]

I still have no idea why ofmerica hasn't replied to TTTT's basic question actually, it's such an easy town thing to reply to, especially when it's been asked several times. It seems like such a basic error though for a mafia team member to make by not replying and drawing further heat.

[MalcolmTucker]

I mean we've said quite clearly that we're now voting you out right now because we want to take time to discuss this and not rush to a hasty decision. And a lengthier discussion meantime could help give us more key info for later on in the game.

But...like, we're going to need to get rid of someone at some point, aren't we? Who do you suggest as an alternative for making the vote count at this stage? After all, it's going to be a bit of a gamble whoever we go for.

And, again, why have you not responded to TT's question about how much experience you have? It's been mentioned right there above on this page and yet you've ignored it again. Which is just a completely bizarre way to approach the game if you're wanting your name to be in the clear.

[MalcolmTucker]

^ That was addressed to ofmerica, sorry, not Shotbun.

[MalcolmTucker]

*we're not voting you out now, not now, typo

[MalcolmTucker]

Yes, your questions being 1) Why townread eyes? I liked their analysis of ttt (i think)s analysis, saying it was too early to read too much into which I agree with. Yes I know all we are doing is reading into things people say, but no-one had really said anything yet. Yes I am guilty of hypocrisy in this respect. I'm not saying eyes is definitely town, just if i had to guess
Question2) No I sometimes clicked the recycle looking button when I thought about the game and was online. Please let me know before putting me at E-2 E-1 and saying intent to hammer etc.

Alright, fair enough.

While I am not against eliminating ofmerica, am I the only one worried about Val89? I was hoping to see their thoughts on players as well, but their most recent post 145 (and stuff like 111) makes me wonder if Val is avoiding sharing their thoughts for some reason. Other posts talking about the previous game as well as a comment on TTTT's game starter. Granted, I understand if a lot of stuff is happening, but oh boy, I would like to see more of you, Val.

It could be of concern but there are genuine occasions on which a player has to back away for a few days due to other commitments. I'd sincerely hope that's not being done as a ploy just to avoid being active.

[MalcolmTucker]

Yeah agreed it has to be someone. I guess I don't mind being the D1 sacrifice. Statistically it'll be a town D1 elim anyway. We can try to do some wagon analysis on my votes since D2 would be a narrowed down pool with myself out and potentially another townie out due to night kill.

I think scum will probably pull a 1 on me 1 off me strat.

How come you're not not replying to TT's question about how much mafia experience you have, given I mentioned it in my above post you've acknowledged? Like it seems as if it's such a basic thing to respond to to the point where it almost makes me think you maybe are town, because a mafia team member would've replied to it to avoid further suspicion building on them.

[MalcolmTucker]

So hypothetically, when I flip green what have we learned exactly?

If you flip green we learn multiple things such as

- we made a blunder
- scum somehow contributed to your elimination
- you are not too cooperative a town player. This one is for future reference though

That said i think yours is one of the worst defenses one could provide in a similar situation. What do we learn by hanging virtually any green flip on D1 anyway? Note that I am using your assumption of you flipping green. I am not saying you will flip green or I would not have voted you obviously. You need to either give me a reason to unvote you or try to make your flip as informative as possible.

Let's start with this simple question: Who on your wagon appears to be scum taking advantage of its existence?

Yes I found this particularly bizarre as well. Naturally there's an element of risk to the day one vote. That had already been acknowledged beforehand by TT anyway!

Also as you point out ofmerica isn't being particularly strong on counter-accusing anyone else who could be mafia. Which could easily be the tactic of a wary mafia team member who doesn't want to nail their colours to the mast by desperately accusing someone they know is a townie.

[MalcolmTucker]

@furtive I agree 7 vs 1 is a fairly difficult position for mafia to be in but the risk of defending ofmerica if you're their teammate is that if they come back guilty as charged, you're then the next immediate candidate for elimination. After all, if it's 7 vs 1 then the town can afford to take more risks and essentially gets three chances at finding out who is mafia.

I actually think the optimum strategy re ofmerica would be to offer a light defence that perhaps begins to sway the town in the other direction without really committing to a proper defence as such. Which could arguably be perceived as what you're doing here...you're not particularly sure that he's mafia, but you're also potentially willing to vote for him when push comes to shove. Not to say I particularly suspect you at this point, because I think most of your analysis there is solid, but I'm just not convinced mafia goes all guns blazing to help ofmerica here, and if they were going to do that they'd have started early.

I do agree though re worrying this feels like too easy a catch. A lot of ofmerica's play feels far too irrational for someone who's trying to avoid suspicion.

[MalcolmTucker]

Let me ask you something ofmercia - what are your current reads and who do you think is the scummiest?

clidd - town, decent posts. doesn't seem to be hiding or faking anything to me

eyes - scum, 149 is just bizarre and i don't feel it comes from town

fruit - town/null, wasn't too sure what was going on with the refresh page shenanigans but 168 looks promising

lukewarm - scum/null, i can kinda see him with malcom

malcom - scum, posts come off as ingenuine and trying to look busy, has been a lot of defending others posts in order to refute basically anything i post. it's as if he knows something, i get the feeling he is changing his posts to fit me as scum at any cost

shotbun - null, i agree with clidds take on you

TTTT - town, trying to lead town and get support for hunting scum and even townies who piss him off

val - null, suspicious leaving vote while going away for so long. especially since it was a random vote. maybe just was that busy so null.

Sorry but the idea Lukewarm and I are both mafia going for a townie at the same time just doesn't make sense, it'd be an incredibly silly strategy this early into the game. Your approach so far just seems to be to suspect players who suspect you.

[MalcolmTucker]

@ofmerica I know it's been alluded to just above, but can we ask again why you are not giving a direct reply to TT's question about your mafia experience? It is really, really weird that you are continually and wilfully avoiding this. And like Lukewarm I'm not seeing a way to avoid casting a vote for you when you're actively avoiding answering an important question that has been asked by another player, it is so simple to answer.

[MalcolmTucker]

Let me ask you something ofmercia - what are your current reads and who do you think is the scummiest?

clidd - town, decent posts. doesn't seem to be hiding or faking anything to me

eyes - scum, 149 is just bizarre and i don't feel it comes from town

fruit - town/null, wasn't too sure what was going on with the refresh page shenanigans but 168 looks promising

lukewarm - scum/null, i can kinda see him with malcom

malcom - scum, posts come off as ingenuine and trying to look busy, has been a lot of defending others posts in order to refute basically anything i post. it's as if he knows something, i get the feeling he is changing his posts to fit me as scum at any cost

shotbun - null, i agree with clidds take on you

TTTT - town, trying to lead town and get support for hunting scum and even townies who piss him off

val - null, suspicious leaving vote while going away for so long. especially since it was a random vote. maybe just was that busy so null.

Sorry but the idea Lukewarm and I are both mafia going for a townie at the same time just doesn't make sense, it'd be an incredibly silly strategy this early into the game. Your approach so far just seems to be to suspect players who suspect you.

Incorrect. If that were the case I'd have 8 scum reads.

I'm not sure that's true - not everyone has necessarily suspected you entirely with some more doubtful than others. You're clearly just deciding the players who have gone heaviest on you must be mafia which would be an incredibly weird strategy to go for from our perspective so early on if we were a team.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm also going to repeat what Eyes said in 165; If ofmercia turns out to be town, we sure messed up real good - but can we blamed for it? If anything, we can assume that mafia has something to do with the elimination if ofmercia becomes green.

You'd presume mafia will be somewhat involved given it's likely there's going to be quite a hefty bandwagon, but could be difficult to determine whether they've driven the bandwagon or jumped onto it at a point which was convenient. If ofmerica isn't mafia, that is.

I'd agree though we can't be blamed if ofmerica comes back clean. They've had multiple opportunities to comply with fairly basic requests from the town but so far have continually refused to do so. I can't see the logic behind that at all, from either a town or mafia POV, but it hasn't been helpful.

Personally I'd hold off on us officially voting out ofmerica for now though. If that's our consensus then there's no need to rush - indeed, if ofmerica comes back green then I'd argue it's more suspect for mafia to want to push this vote through immediately. We're best taking stock and having further discussion which could give us more useful info to use further down the line irrespective of what ofmerica is. It'd also be interesting to know from every player who they intend to vote for this turn, so that some can't just weasel out of it and claim they didn't back getting rid of ofmerica or someone else irrespective of what happens.

[MalcolmTucker]

Me refusing to answer a question has really brought a lot of attention and I rolled with it in order for it to be a town tell, but now that I stated it to be a town tell the jig is up. Not sure in what universe scum flat out denies to answer a simple question with a lot of pressure from multiple players. I guess I assumed wrong and somehow it's actually a scum tell. Or maybe players feel it's town but have been convinced by others or by their self conscience that it's "anti town" for 1 question not to be answered. But then the dilemma is that town is ok with lynching town, which makes no sense to me. So I give up hope. Townies pull it together for the rest of the game for the love of god.

Intent to hammer.

I mean I've acknowledged myself that it's really bizarre for mafia to just actively avoid answering such a basic question to the point that it makes me wonder if you're town after all, but I still don't get what you're actually aiming to achieve through such an approach? It's an incredibly simple question to answer which would help us, as a town, to get a better idea of your experience and past as a player, but you're still refusing to actually answer that! TT correctly pointed out if you're under pressure the best way to try and ease the heat on you is to answer any queries players may have provided doing so isn't harmful to the town as a whole. Like...I'm reading your post, and I still don't know why you've avoided it? Doing something deliberately to make you appear like a town player doesn't automatically make it so, especially if that is your actual tactic. Like, I'm still unsure if you are mafia or not at this point, because your strategy just seems incredibly bizarre, but why have you actively played in a way which makes things more difficult for yourself if you are part of the town?

Your argument seems to be here that if you do things that make you look like mafia then you inherently can't be mafia because someone working against the town wouldn't make such basic errors. But, again, we don't know how experienced you are, so we have no idea if it not answering questions is a rookie error or a panicked newbie mafia not wanting to give the game away or whatever else.

I'm still open to being swayed to vote for someone else. I've not cast my vote yet and I'd prefer we hold off for a while. But making yourself seem like a prime suspect on the first day when we inherently lack information is always going to make you a target for elimination because we can't go on voting records or a lot of past contradictory information. I'm up for changing my vote if better evidence against someone else emerges, but thus far your argument seems to rest on your suspects being the exact people who have either pushed to vote for you or who have questioned you, which isn't convincing at all.

[MalcolmTucker]

I also don't get why you'd hold off on giving us that info for so long when it's been clear for a good while now you were the prime suspect and would have to start actually been cooperative with the town to clear your name. It kinda feels like you're giving up here, but I'm unsure if that's frustrated town or if you've been caught and can't really be bothered persisting with a proper defence any longer. But, again, if you outlined a proper defence and a good reason to go for someone else, I'm still up for listening.

[MalcolmTucker]

I mean, it's still early in the game, if you're town I don't expect you to have an absolute and definitive list of who is town and who is mafia, because nobody has that and anyone who says they do is lying.

When you gave your list you suggested three people as mafia. Two of them, myself and Lukewarm, have heavily suspected you. You suggested we were a team together. I said that is incredibly unlikely because if you are town, I don't imagine both mafia team members would go all-in on you together...likely one would lead the bandwagon or participate in it, and the other would sit back and let events play out without saying too much.

You've asserted above all your scum reads aren't players who have voted for you...this is only correct in the sense that I've yet to cast my vote. Your list of suspects include myself, Lukewarm and Eyes. The latter two have cast votes for you or if they've withdrawn them to prevent the round from ending intend to do so. Therefore your entire logic at the moment for who you suspect pretty much is based on simply suspecting those who suspect you because we should trust you're town, which isn't a particularly strong defence.

Lastly you argued in your suspect list I was out to get you at all costs - this is also just blatantly untrue. You're my prime suspect for now but I've said, repeatedly, I'm content to change my vote if someone else becomes more suspicious or if you give a convincing argument which clears your name. Again, I've literally not even cast a vote for you yet.

Your last part is just incredibly disingenuous - the entire player list may suspect you now but you know quite well a select few players have been more active in that regard than others. There's a big difference between, say, Lukewarm starting the initial bandwagon against you and someone like furtive being willing to vote for you but being far from convinced you're mafia.

[MalcolmTucker]

Let me ask you something ofmercia - what are your current reads and who do you think is the scummiest?

clidd - town, decent posts. doesn't seem to be hiding or faking anything to me

eyes - scum, 149 is just bizarre and i don't feel it comes from town

fruit - town/null, wasn't too sure what was going on with the refresh page shenanigans but 168 looks promising

lukewarm - scum/null, i can kinda see him with malcom

malcom - scum, posts come off as ingenuine and trying to look busy, has been a lot of defending others posts in order to refute basically anything i post. it's as if he knows something, i get the feeling he is changing his posts to fit me as scum at any cost

shotbun - null, i agree with clidds take on you

TTTT - town, trying to lead town and get support for hunting scum and even townies who piss him off

val - null, suspicious leaving vote while going away for so long. especially since it was a random vote. maybe just was that busy so null.

Like here is your list of reads. Quite literally the three people you suspect of being mafia had either already voted for you or in my own case had stated an intention to do so.

[MalcolmTucker]

Again you're ignoring the clear difference between someone who's barely interacted with you going "I may vote for him but dunno" and other players who are a lot keener on eliminating you.

I don't see how this makes me mafia either, I've just been active. The point of this game when you're playing is to interrogate people who you think might be mafia, that will naturally involve some repetition. The bandwagon has been on you for a while, there's no need for me to go all-out on you if I'm mafia because it's been looking like you'll go for a while anyway. And, again, I'm still willing to hear a proper defence...you just aren't giving one, you're distorting previous posts and claiming things that just aren't true while concealing useful info from the town on whether you're experienced at the game or not.

[MalcolmTucker]

Agreed, said repeatedly there is no need for us to rush this. Some people might just not be thinking but best to get as much info as we can from this turn.

[MalcolmTucker]

Again you're ignoring the clear difference between someone who's barely interacted with you going "I may vote for him but dunno" and other players who are a lot keener on eliminating you.

I don't see how this makes me mafia either, I've just been active. The point of this game when you're playing is to interrogate people who you think might be mafia, that will naturally involve some repetition. The bandwagon has been on you for a while, there's no need for me to go all-out on you if I'm mafia because it's been looking like you'll go for a while anyway. And, again, I'm still willing to hear a proper defence...you just aren't giving one, you're distorting previous posts and claiming things that just aren't true while concealing useful info from the town on whether you're experienced at the game or not.

Are you looking at the state of the game? Many are obsessing over the ignoring of 1 question and

screaming buzzwords like anti town

that there isn't much content. The ones rightfully ignoring that and trying to play the game are afk, hopefully they get more active so town at least has some hope. If they're mafia RIP.

So state of the game for me to try to find scum is looking at my wagon and you already dismiss that. Don't tell me to make a defence when you setup the defence for failure already.

Because continually refusing to provide us with info which could help us assess your role is inherently against the town's interests. Why won't you acknowledge this?

[MalcolmTucker]

How about a quick question for everyone, seeing as our day 1 vote is likely determined at this point:
Who is your biggest scumread apart from Ofmercia, and why?

See, if Ofmerica is mafia, I'd have opted for you, because your fairly detailed post a few pages back yesterday read both as a mild defence of him, while still saying you'd probably vote for him if push came to shove. It read like an attempt for someone to ever so slightly shift the conversation, without wanting to closely be associated with that player either.

But then you asking this question has more of a town vibe, because right now I'd imagine it suits mafia for the chat to be all about ofmerica, irrespective of whether or not they actually do turn out to be mafia in the end.

[MalcolmTucker]

that's a decent reply
but 215 looked desperate

I personally thought 215 was fine, the primary reason for us to keep ofmerica alive at this point is to gain more info and more evidence that could be useful to determine who is town/mafia in future rounds. We've been trying to get through to ofmerica for a while now re your question about experience but it's just not working. Unless ofmerica can pull off a drastic turnaround and convince us not to eliminate then it seems sensible to consider who else might be mafia.

Furtive has been my main suspect in that regard so far for reasons Lukewarm outlined above better than me, but I don't think 215 was at all odd and if anything mafia would want to avoid drawing attention away from ofmerica right now.

[MalcolmTucker]

Why will you not just answer the question?

[MalcolmTucker]

but I don't think 215 was at all odd and if anything mafia would want to avoid drawing attention away from ofmerica right now.

it looks like how newbscum tries to divert with "subtlety"
overall his play confuses me
but I like the transparency
if he's scum that will be hard to fake as the game progresses
and he's an unlikely NK so should be here long enough to be sortable
so he's not on my radar for a day1 elim
if it isn't ofmercia the SEs deserve some attention

I don't think the request on the last page was necessarily subtle at all, it felt like an attempt to shift our current topic of conversation which, given we're pretty clear on what we think of ofmerica, seems perfectly reasonable. As I've said, furtive would've seemed more suspicious if they'd just sat in the background and avoided any further confrontation until ofmerica was gone, given it's clear what way we're voting.

[MalcolmTucker]

Yeah I really, really hate the reasoning of "I can't be mafia because I did thing X mafia wouldn't do". If you're town you're essentially admitting you're employing a deliberately obtrusive style in order to clear your name, which is unhelpful at best and against the rules at worst.

[MalcolmTucker]

I've missed this game over the past couple days. First of all rest in peace clidd. Secondly, let's be more careful with our votes today. Day 1 felt a bit rushed with some players (including myself) letting ofmercia cloud our vision. I'd like for us to make the most of the week we have to eliminate someone.

Just reading back, and I find this to be a bit of an odd post. It implies we were all itching to get rid of ofmerica right away, but in the end the reason they went out immediately was because they self-hammered to bring their time in the game to an end. I was absolutely willing to wait for a couple of extra days to take more time to ascertain ofmerica's guilt or to see where else the game went.

Your assertion, further on, that Lukewarm was acting as if the game was solved by putting you and ofmerica together is also incorrect. I believe Lukewarm was like me in being not 100% on ofmerica despite correctly believing it was the most sensible vote. I could be wrong here, but I also feel like at one point Lukewarm suggested if you were mafia then ofmerica might end up being innocent.

I'm wary to jump on a bandwagon for you at this point but some of these posts are not helping your case I reckon.

[MalcolmTucker]

How about a quick question for everyone, seeing as our day 1 vote is likely determined at this point:
Who is your biggest scumread apart from Ofmercia, and why?

clidd. I don't remember anything he said.

This is what happens when you have a selective memory ^

you can say that again when you turn guilty tomorrow

Not sure anyone has mentioned this exchange at all, conveniently right before clidd was eliminated by mafia. It feels like it'd be really odd for a mafia player to start beef with a townie right before they kill them. It'd be a really bold move for sure but doesn't suggest likely mafia, especially when clidd didn't appear to be an obvious kill.

But as mentioned above Eyes has some weirdly contradictory posts that could read as more mafia, so could be a double-bluff.

[MalcolmTucker]

you had ofmercia as a scumlean
and the only "resistance" you put up was about you and ofmercia as a pair

'If my mafia buddy was going out d1 I would try to stop it at all costs, because 1 in 7 is pretty impossible. At the moment no one is defending Ofmercia (O from now on), so I have a sinking feeling that there is more than meets the eye with this current vote. I would love it to be a quick win as well, but I'm just worried. To clarify I do have a scumlean on O for their play so far, but based on the voting and lack of defence of O I am worried they could be defensive/unhelpful town.' - 168. This is what I said

Out of interest, do you still agree with this take? I never really did. It became clear early on ofmerica was the prime suspect and jumping to their defence, if they were mafia, would have potentially just exposed whoever did it even further thereby basically ending the game.

[MalcolmTucker]

Eyes
explain scumread on Malcolm plz
that's a good start

THIS IS NOT HOW I OPERATE. GODDAMN. How many times do I have to explain I was town hunting from the get go. Everyone was a suspect until I either town read them or decided they can't be scum with someone else in particular.

And you try6ing to turn the table isn't good either. I asked you to point out what was townie about any of the three so you are the one supposed to town case Malcolm

Apologies if this is the way you always play, and others may feel like it's a perfectly legitimate strategy, but this potentially strikes me as a useful way to be able to make it look like you're putting in the effort to actually have reads without having to nail your colours to the mast or explain them in detail at all in a way that could potentially expose someone who's mafia and having to fake suspicion.

If you TR one player but don't TR another then the latter player is clearly doing something which you don't think makes them worthy of a TR, especially when said player is active and we're a turn into the game.

[MalcolmTucker]

Not counterclaiming either.

[MalcolmTucker]

still like my vote on Eyes
that PR fishing was gross
I'll have more to say either tonight or tomorrow
stuck on mobile now

Yeah I was unsure if I was missing something here but why the absolute desperation to unveil a player in a role? It's useful to have someone in the clear, but is also very useful info for mafia too. It seems like too blatant a move to be mafia from Eyes but could also be a gambit from someone who's under pressure to do all they can to help their partner going forward if they fear elimination in this turn.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm not particularly sure why Val counterclaims here if they're mafia? So far as I can see he wasn't under heavy pressure so far. Furtive being confirmed town would have been useful but it was also far from a guarantee that we'd catch a mafia tonight given that'd have been one confirmed member of the town so far.

I'm leaning toward believing Val's argument here but unsure how others are feeling.

[MalcolmTucker]

How about a quick question for everyone, seeing as our day 1 vote is likely determined at this point:
Who is your biggest scumread apart from Ofmercia, and why?

clidd. I don't remember anything he said.

This is what happens when you have a selective memory ^

you can say that again when you turn guilty tomorrow

I want to, again, redirect people back to this exchange right before the first elimination took place, because it's not been commented on a lot and I don't think anyone replied to me when I followed up on it.

Eyes has been a prime suspect this turn but directly accusing the player you play to eliminate in the night seems like a fairly ballsy move. Misdirect or a good indication Eyes may not be mafia?

[MalcolmTucker]

From an initial glance a Furtive claim makes much more sense from a mafia POV than a Val mafia claim.

Lukewarm, myself, TT and now Val have either gone in on furtive at some point or now have directly said furtive is lying and is mafia. By my reckoning that would leave either Shotbun or Eyes as final mafia.

[MalcolmTucker]

I wonder if the scum team left me alive to lead a miselim on furtive.

Eyes never does that after seeing the soft.

I think that a Val+shotbun team, even if they have the idea of leaving me alive for that reason, kills one of tttt or Malcolm.

So I am definitely reconsidering there being scum inside tttt Malcolm during my re read

Aware the game has changed now with Val's counterclaim, but I don't think you'd necessarily have been the only obvious contender for elimination after the first turn if we were looking at a misdirect.

You were probably the most forensic in terms of analysis but me and TT had both been very active as well and could have been decent contenders to get rid of some active townies. I think if there was a misdirect via the vote for Clidd, it could have been aimed at directing suspicion onto any one of the three of us.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm not particularly sure why Val counterclaims here if they're mafia? So far as I can see he wasn't under heavy pressure so far. Furtive being confirmed town would have been useful but it was also far from a guarantee that we'd catch a mafia tonight given that'd have been one confirmed member of the town so far.

I'm leaning toward believing Val's argument here but unsure how others are feeling.

I think I have an answer for you Malcolm - it lies with post 396.

Lukewarm narrowed down the scumpool to Val, TTT, Shotbun and Malcolm. Assuming both mafia lie in here (and one of whom is Val), this is a bit too close for comfort for Val. It is also worth bearing in mind that I would have been saved tonight by jailkeeper/doctor. We don't know if the mafia have a roleblocker, and this may indicate that they don't and were scared of me tracking one of them. After all, otherwise you could roleblock me while hunting for the doctor/jailkeeper.

Val's logic obviously was that I had been under pressure and had not been defending myself well pre-claim. Seeing an 'easy' miscondemn of me the tracker followed by Val's elimination tomorrow would leave 1 mafia in 3. It's worth noting that if mafia don't have a Roleblocker they have a Role Cop, who could well know who the doctor/jailkeeper is already. This would leave 1 mafia with 2 VT in the final 3. Judging by Val's confidence in his partner, I'm now thinking it's probably not Shotbun but rather TTT or Malcolm, who increases my suspicion of him by stating intent to vote me but not comitting to it in case public opinion is on my side.

Val counter claimed assuming I would be an easy miscondemn; that is the reason for the fakeclaim. If instead we vote out Val, we guarantee ourselves my survival into tomorrow, meaning we would have 1 mafia in 5 with at least one confirmed town.

That feels like an incredibly hasty and immediate claim though for what had been only a brief bit of suspicion in one post. Val has, so far at least, struck me as a somewhat careful player who isn't jumping to conclusions hastily. Why would they suddenly change tack based on one post accusing them? Again, both mafia were still in the game and in a somewhat favourable position thus far. You revealing your role helps out a bit but doesn't necessarily sway the game completely in our favour if you're telling the truth, or at least it wouldn't until Val's reveal.

[MalcolmTucker]

Val's reasoning here strikes me as quite solid to be honest. Furtive had been under suspicion for a while and is a sensible check. Val always just ultimately has more to lose with the claim if he's mafia, whereas for Furtive at this point it was arguably the best gambit available to have a go at avoiding elimination and smoke out a player with a key role.

[MalcolmTucker]

Read the last few pages and increasingly confident Furtive is the right choice here. Val's posts seem fairly consistent and sensible. Furtive's explanations are a bit all over the place to be honest, decent effort at claiming but just not particularly convincing in the end for me.

[MalcolmTucker]

still like my vote on Eyes
that PR fishing was gross
I'll have more to say either tonight or tomorrow
stuck on mobile now

VOTE: TTTT

1- You call it fishing as if town are not supposed to hunt and protect their PRs.
2- You totally ignore the timing I stated a TR on furtive right after his first crumb meaning if I was mafia I'd have killed him already
3- How do you know I'm not the doctor in this setup? I am

neither claiming nor denying

being a doctor here, but I can't see you (the town leader) not even considering it

Also if I was CCing I would have done it long ago. After all I am the one that asked furtive to confirm or deny being a PR (although I did say I didn't want him to out the exact type of PR he was)

So it now does look to me that you might have been the one that shot clidd "for fear of there being a doctor" as you yourself put it. I hadn't thought of it that way before you mentioned it and I don't think anyone else did so it was kind of odd for you to say it, but I assumed the best till now. Your accusations towards me are obviously with bad faith and possibly with the intention of outing the doctor based on me having outed I saw the crumb as early as day one and furtive still made it through the night.

Sort of wondering if you might not be furtive's partner given this is, respectfully, an absolutely mad but respectfully bold post to make given the circumstances.

[MalcolmTucker]

For everyone's information, Val and Malcolm are my two biggest suspects. They are not town voices.

This post does not make sense. If Val is risking his slot to get rid of you, he knows he's going out in the next turn. Like, that is guaranteed. If that happens, the mafia need one member of their team alive in the final turn, naturally, to win the game. Said member of team is not going to jump to the defence of their soon to be outgoing teammate. They're either going to play it down the middle, or subtly sacrifice their teammate given they know they're going out sooner rather than later.

[MalcolmTucker]

Re my above post: that's if Val was hypothetically mafia, which I do not believe to be the case. Aware that wasn't necessarily clear.

[MalcolmTucker]

No worries. I know what deep tunnel feels like. If furtive is scum though we will be 4 v 1 tomorro and we can afford to mislim me provided TTTT is the lim in the final 3. fair enough?

I sincerely doubt TT/Furtive are mafia together, just doesn't line up at all. Lukewarm, myself and TT have been fairly united in our views this game while being quite active as a trio. I see why that was seen as suspicious initially but now we know one of Val/Furtive is mafia, it seems increasingly clear we're either right on this turn or have had a bit of a disaster, unless Furtive has somehow swayed either of you two.

But I remain unsure as to whether you're final mafia. You've made some suspicious posts but also some odd ones insofar as a mafia player would be concerned. I still don't see why you'd be smack-talking Clidd right before he gets eliminated unless it's a major misdirect. Shotbun is seeming increasingly more likely to me as the second mafia but that could still change to be fair.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm feeling frustrated right now. Val seems to have everyone hook line and sinker. This will probably be my last forum game. Although I like the format and style, I obviously lack the persuasion skills necessary to have any success, and I feel completely powerless at the moment. I want to be done with this game as soon as possible actually. My best guess is that it's Malcolm as Val's partner, but truthfully I have no clue. I might not post for a while. If you're dissatisfied with the way I've played or blame me for town losing, don't worry you probably won't see me again on this site.

I wouldn't worry about it too much to be honest, it's all part of the game, and as Lukewarm has alluded to we're going to get a mafia player either way in the next couple of turns.

It's not personal at all (you've been fun to play with), just looking at the arguments being put forward by both you and Val, I'm struggling to see any way in which voting out Val here is a more reliable option for catching someone who's mafia.

[MalcolmTucker]

What's the reasoning behind your sudden switch to Furtive? Just believe Val over him?

[MalcolmTucker]

I think everything seems fairly conclusive now, but happy to hold off for a bit if need be.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think everything seems fairly conclusive now, but happy to hold off for a bit if need be.

from what I've been able to keep up with I agree
but I want my re-read thoughts public before the night
it costs us nothing but time

Sure, agreed. Might catch something valuable one of us have missed so makes sense to wait for a bit.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm fine with waiting too if need be but things feel increasingly conclusive at this point.

[MalcolmTucker]

Yeah I'd say we maybe want to make a final call by tonight, although our views seem quite conclusive.

[MalcolmTucker]

Val kinda ignored Malcolm day 1. Everything val said d2 they know they will be flipped soon so ignore that. Independently malcolm seems forced/stilted/fake. TTT Luke and Eyes need to trust each other. I think shotbun is town as well. Malcolm says a lotta filler but was also the first to side with val

I don't see how you can both say my posts were filler but that I conclusively sided with Val. Clearly I've looked between your two claims and judged that one is more solid, that is the opposite of filler. And when you come back as mafia clearly I'll be a TR along with the others who suspect you.

[MalcolmTucker]

Do we have enough votes to hammer yet? If not:

VOTE: FurtiveGlance

[MalcolmTucker]

Well-played, Val. Had me, but then Furtive didn't exactly scream town.

Will be intrigued to find out who Val's partner is going forward. Eyes has probably been the most suspicious remaining player so far, but then until now our suspicions have pretty much all ended up being wrong. Clear we've got a skilled mafia team who know what they're doing. I'm unsure if it'll be Eyes because doesn't really make sense for Val to throw them under the water at this point when mafia have a major advantage.

[MalcolmTucker]

Final reads are these: Lukewarm is 100%, absolutely never convince me otherwise, might as well be me, Locktown. No doubts there. Despite the spew, Lukewarm never plays my outting the way they do while they know I'm not telling the truth.

I am 99.99% certain TTTT and MT are also spewed town, but if I am wrong about that, I think the partner is much more likley to be TTTT than MT, simply because I can see a scum who knows there is no cop in this setup playing it the way TTTT does - causing a delay, prompting and poking the idea that I might actually be scum by asking for a claim-independant read, and hoping someone loses faith in the process and CCs me, than I see that play coming from a scum!MT, who jumps straight in on my side of the fence. I think they are both spewed town anyway by furtives [post]309/[post], but that is the distinction I see if it turns out that was calculated.

Final scum is in Shotbun/Eyes. Despite the arguments to the contrary, I am almost convinced it is Eyes, and you should always lim there first tommorrow. The way Eyes went about today after the CC is

exactly

how informed scum, who doesnt know what to do here, would play it - ignore it completely, push someone else, particulary by making reference to PRs, and hope someone slips something that makes my claim impossible while dealing with that wagon. When that doesn't work, hand the decision off to someone else and don't get involved. If my gambit backfires on me, and "elim all liars" comes into effect, they can vote me as soon as Luke does without arousing suspicion, and if not, they don't paint a target on their own back for being informed before everyone else.

TLDR: Lim eyes tomorrow. If it's not Eyes, then Shotbun.

Think this will be an interesting post to reflect back on to see what Val is trying to achieve.

The assertion Lukewarm was 100% town is intriguing - what's Val got to gain from that? Unless Lukewarm has actually fully claimed a role, it makes sense to try and eliminate them overnight. The most skilled player so far from a town POV with generally strong analysis and a driver of activity. Also largely trusted Val's reads along with most of us.

Shotbun was an interesting choice for elimination because they'd been under a bit of pressure, and there was no reason they wouldn't have been a possible suspect as Val's teammate.

The comments re TT are interesting - asserting TT is probably town, but also throwing in a little crumb which could suggest otherwise. Unsure if that could be a misdirect to create distance or not.

[MalcolmTucker]

Val
plz keep claiming JK this day phase
I'm here to be entertained

everybody else
plz reread and start thinking about the partner

I don't think we should talk about it too much

but do your homework and be ready for day4

I'm not sure why we wouldn't talk about it a lot at this stage? There are three town players remaining. One of them will be eliminated in the next turn. I'd argue it's somewhat vital we get their reads going forward now for any useful info in the last turn and to put pressure on the final mafia player. In fact, I'd argue that's exactly what we should be doing to see how players react to the possibility they're paired with Val.

[MalcolmTucker]

still like my vote on Eyes
that PR fishing was gross
I'll have more to say either tonight or tomorrow
stuck on mobile now

VOTE: TTTT

1- You call it fishing as if town are not supposed to hunt and protect their PRs.
2- You totally ignore the timing I stated a TR on furtive right after his first crumb meaning if I was mafia I'd have killed him already
3- How do you know I'm not the doctor in this setup? I am

neither claiming nor denying

being a doctor here, but I can't see you (the town leader) not even considering it

Also if I was CCing I would have done it long ago. After all I am the one that asked furtive to confirm or deny being a PR (although I did say I didn't want him to out the exact type of PR he was)

So it now does look to me that you might have been the one that shot clidd "for fear of there being a doctor" as you yourself put it. I hadn't thought of it that way before you mentioned it and I don't think anyone else did so it was kind of odd for you to say it, but I assumed the best till now. Your accusations towards me are obviously with bad faith and possibly with the intention of outing the doctor based on me having outed I saw the crumb as early as day one and furtive still made it through the night.

This is an interesting post to look back on. But knowing what we know now there are some definite town vibes for me. Furtive was an easy misdirect for the mafia both before and after Val's claim. Eyes may not necessarily be right and their theorising could be well-off but I don't think a mafia player starts throwing curveballs like this when we had our eyes honed in on a player who turned out to be town.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm not sure starting a counterwagon was the intent. The whole post could have been substituted with "Are you the doctor, TTTT?" and it would have done the same job with less words.

Maybe I am just deperate to be right, and be the one with both a guilty and the hero partner-solve after being forced to sit out most of D1, but I was waiting to see what Eyes did, and I'm not seeing any reason to think I'm wrong.

I will be upset if this game is hammered before I get to re-read tomorrow.

So, yes voice who you think it is between the two, but please don't put either one at e-1

You want the truth? I don't know which if them to believe. They're both talking with much confidence I'm impressed how convincing the liar of them is.

That said, I suspect I might be a "little bit" biased because I saw that crumb and I don't want to be be wrong. This in effect means Val is probably the more convincing of the two but my bias is not letting me see it.

I am also struggling to see why furtive crumbed on day one. Was he planning on a fake claim all along?

So in conclusion I am going to relay my vote to the one player I trust the most at this point. LUKEWARM. That's the one player left out there that I can bet the game on being a townie. TTTT's flawed reasoning for voting me and furtive's mexican stand off with Val degraded my reads on them both. Val was never a solid town read either and neither was Malcolm, but if Val is the true PR then I guess Malcolm is cleared as well as he made his choice clear already.

So.. whomever Luke decides to vote I'll vote

Val again suggesting the team could have been Eyes/Furtive, which we now know not to be the case. Again, there could be a misdirect in here, but given Eyes was already under suspicion I don't think this makes much sense...I think Val's strategy was too heap as much suspicion on Eyes as possible to strengthen their argument re Furtive.

And again Eyes' post here is confusing but feels kinda townie? Reads like someone who had their doubts re Val (understandably so in retrospect), but who was willing to go with the town consensus while keeping an open-mind. I'm not sure mafia does anything other than happily throw Furtive under the bus this turn because it's a useful way to blend in.

[MalcolmTucker]

Shotbun was an interesting choice for elimination because they'd been under a bit of pressure, and there was no reason they wouldn't have been a possible suspect as Val's teammate.

you do know what column we are in now, right?

Sorry yeah, trying to parse all this and forgot there that Shotbun was the doctor, which means it was a strong find from the mafia. Looking through Shotbun's posts and there was very little of substance since they kept dipping in and out of the game a lot.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm not sure why we wouldn't talk about it a lot at this stage?

we should talk about it
I said not "too much"
I see no benefit to ending our day with scum knowing everyone's complete reads

It's surely going to be fairly obvious who suspects who though no? Out of interest, cards on the table, who do you reckon Val's partner is?

[MalcolmTucker]

fuck it
I'm pretty sure it's Eyes
anybody can read my ISO and see I'm pretty set on that
and these flips reinforce that rather than make me question it

I DO NOT think either malcolm or luke should out any concrete reads at this stage
because the NK is going to be one of them

on the other hand Eyes should probably put out clear reads

I'm really not seeing Eyes and Val as a team here, it doesn't particularly line up for me at the moment. Val has been one of the strongest critics of Eyes throughout the game so far, I'm not sure it makes sense for that to happen if they're both mafia together unless it's a huge misdirect.

As for who Eyes suspects, fairly sure it's been you for a while now.

[MalcolmTucker]

@TT you're the most experienced player here remaining so far as I can see. Do you think there's a chance Luke is playing a blinder here and strining us all along?

I reckon if Luke is town he wasn't targeted because mafia likely knew he'd be protected. But by the same token, a doctor protecting Luke doesn't preclude him from being mafia.

[MalcolmTucker]

So we're not supposed to let Mafia know who we might vote on D4 but I'm also required to give clear reads?

It's abundantly clear to me that it's TTTT now. Forget about all the pairings I did. Reread the game with the knowledge of furtive, Shotbun & Val's alignments and you can see TTTT was not as townie as everyone thought (including myself) on D1

I also don't see why we shouldn't vote Val now. Our PRs are dead so nothing town can gain from any discussion today. Mafia do because they are the ones deciding the next kill.

VOTE: Val

Yeah I'm finding this line of reasoning especially odd from TT. There are four of us left who could potentially be town, three for definite and one who's not. TT's logic is basically here that the people they reckon aren't mafia should stay quiet, while the player they reckon is mafia should have to give their detailed reasoning in full. It's not quite chiming for me.

[MalcolmTucker]

Val
plz keep claiming JK this day phase
I'm here to be entertained

everybody else
plz reread and start thinking about the partner
I don't think we should talk about it too much
but do your homework and be ready for day4

It's surely going to be fairly obvious who suspects who though no?

maybe
we'll see how the day develops
we need a lot of discussion and questioning
but maybe not as transparent on our conclusions at this stage

Could be reading too much into it, but "I don't think we should talk about it too much" to "we need a lot of discussion and questioning" reads like a bit of a jump for me, although I get you're posting fairly briefly and not exactly in extensive detail.

I dunno, this could be genuine but from my POV I'm not sure I'm entirely agereing with the logic. If Luke is town, he probably goes in the night, struggling to see any other alternative to that. If I'm one of two remaining townies after that I feel like I'm probably going to be a lot more confident if I know where his reads lie beyond a vote for Val.

Luke - interested to hear your thoughts re this one. I dunno, maybe I'm missing something here but I'm not sure how much info we're really going to be giving the mafia. My thoughts are already pretty clear. Eyes/TT suspect each other. How much are we actually holding back here?

[MalcolmTucker]

Have to say I'm really regretting Lukewarm's decision not to give me more extensive reads now in retrospect, feel like it would have been hugely beneficial headed into the final turn.

Basically down to the two of you to prove who is more town Eyes/TT, presuming you're still locked on each other.

[MalcolmTucker]

I suppose from here your best approach is to basically mount a case against the other/mount a defence of yourself.

I'm going to do some digging through your posts and see where I lie after that.

[MalcolmTucker]

Right, reading through the thread again, first off from the POV of TT being the mafia, and there's a lot that's starting to increasingly make me lean this way. Lot of this is just spewed out and I'll do similar for Eyes in time.

First up - the Val/Furtive stuff. From a POV of TT is mafia.

Notably TT was giving Furtive a soft TR post-reveal and wasn't particularly convinced that he was mafia. Obviously in retrospect that reads are pretty solid, but are also something a mafia player would know. While it was easy to jump on the Furtive bandwagon and back Val, I imagine TT may have been wary of being one of the lead voices behind the second miselim in a row. It makes sense from a mafia POV to be a bit more reluctant here.

Interestingly in TT's detailed post re their reads as he caught up on the game once he doesn't mention Val once - and instead asks for a separate independent read from Luke. This is kinda useful from a mafia POV potentially because it avoids any direct contradictions which could come back into play after Val is exposed as mafia.

Eyes is quiet for a while and then very quickly comes back and seems to do almost a 180 on Furtive, which is ridiculously convenient for the mafia. Like, I don't think Furtive necessarily helped themselves with some posts I thought were suspicious, but TT almost seems to drop the previous defence right away and is happy to now jump on the bandwagon and protect Val without seeming desperate or notable for doing so.

Notably Furtive themselves pointed out TT's delay in supporting Val as a reason to give a stronger TR on TT than me. If this is a mafia gambit then at the time it had its desired effect.

Another key detail is that Val is like close to 100% convinced before the elimination (while lying) that Eyes is mafia, and that it's either Eyes or Shotbun. This just seems a bit too full-on for me if Val - like I think Val is a lot more likely to be cagey about their partner at this point to avoid suspicion more than anything else. And that's kinda how they are with TT - Val from a town POV reckons TT is town but not quite as town as myself. This feels like a kinda classic way to try and clear your partner by not being 100% defensive of them but not pushing them into the spotlight either.

But the kicker for me may be the posts below.

I wonder if the scum team left me alive to lead a miselim on furtive.

Eyes never does that after seeing the soft.

I think that a Val+shotbun team, even if they have the idea of leaving me alive for that reason, kills one of tttt or Malcolm.

So I am definitely reconsidering there being scum inside tttt Malcolm during my re read

VOTE: Furtiveglance

This is what you get for playing on a different timezone to everyone else.

You can hold off on that re-read until tomorrow, Lukewarm.

Notably Val's claim comes directly after Luke begins to suspect that there's a mafia member among myself/Luke/TT. Remember this is a while after Furtive has claimed. TT has not claimed, it's basically the last chance for mafia to counter Furtive or accept what he's saying. The fact that comes directly after Lukewarm begins to slightly turn on TT (and me too, for what it's worth) is really interesting.

[MalcolmTucker]

In retrospect as well I just find TT's insistence we not discuss things all that much before voting out Val to be bizarre. I get Luke didn't exactly disagree with this, but in retrospect I don't think it helped before and would have only worked if mafia genuinely had no idea what we were thinking going into the final turn.

I think there's a chance TT was aware Luke had some lingering suspicions from before the Val reveal which could have come back if we'd had more extensive discussion about who the partner is.

And indeed in retrospect, it feels especially convenient for mafia that we're unsure how Luke was going to vote now going into the final turn. But I dunno, I'd hinted beforehand I wasn't going to be all that keen on just immediately voting out Eyes...so from that POV I could also seem like the logical choice to go for.

[MalcolmTucker]

I was about to start screaming for Eyes to unvote
then Malcolm proved he is town

You mean I proved that I'm town myself? Were you uncertain about who you were going to vote for? I kinda had you down as a clear Eyes elimination at this point.

Indeed my big long post above has a lot of stuff in it that could apply equally to me alongside you, but then I know I'm town and it'd be weird if you were hypothetically going to switch up on that at this point given your previous suspicions.

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcolm you are proven town because if you were scum you would have hammered me already

Yes I just noticed this lol. But also...is that not kinda convenient for Eyes from a town POV? Was always likely to be a battle between the two of you, but if Eyes is mafia, leaving me in it and holding off from an immediate vote at least leaves open the slight possibility things could change, however slim that may be.

[MalcolmTucker]

Why am I putting my partner in the 3 people I wouldn't oppose their lim on D1?

that's not a good argument
maybe he told you he was going VLA for the rest of the week
maybe you were distancing
by your logic that makes me town because I had Val in my lynchpool

I dunno, I don't think it means much on turn one, but I'm not sure it makes all that much sense for Eyes to still be putting Val in their elimination pool on day two once things had started to narrow.

[MalcolmTucker]

Also the difference between you/Val here is that you very quickly changed to Furtive once it was convenient to do so within the space of a few posts. Eyes had kinda suspected Val in passing but never diverted onto Furtive and instead honed in on you.

[MalcolmTucker]

I want to hear this
why can't the scum team be one of:
Val-Shotbun
Val-Eyes
Eyes-Shotbun
furtive-midwaybear
?

I can see you including Val in a possible mafia-team pool here TT, but I can't remember you particularly following up on that all too many times re Val? And if you are absolutely convinced Eyes is mafia, why did you suddenly stop believing Furtive's claim? Like, I get his logic wasn't perfect, but if this is your hunch, a fake-claim from Val basically verifies it entirely.

[MalcolmTucker]

Luke and Malcolm seem the most townread

one of them would have been a better kill

clidd's death means we're probably not in column C
scum were worried about a doc
or clidd baited them but I don't see it either

Indeed...

[MalcolmTucker]

How about a quick question for everyone, seeing as our day 1 vote is likely determined at this point:
Who is your biggest scumread apart from Ofmercia, and why?

clidd. I don't remember anything he said.

This is what happens when you have a selective memory ^

you can say that again when you turn guilty tomorrow

@Eyes @TT

I both want your comments on this exhange here on day one, because so far as I can see it has not yet been acknowledged by anyone bar myself, but if Eyes is mafia it's incredibly bold considering Clidd was offed that night. Like it could easily be a misdirect from Eyes, but I also dunno why mafia draw attention to whoever they want to eliminate here, doesn't make sense.

@Eyes do you have a stronger explanation of why you suspected Clidd at this point? Was it just a gut-read? TT, what do you make of it?

[MalcolmTucker]

If everyone wants me out I will go, just make sure to say E-1 and intent to hammer before hammering.
Hopefully people will listen to me when I flip. My current thoughts are probably TTT/Eyes as a pair, but if Lukewarm is town they are playing very strangely. STOP TUNNELING.

This getting ridiculous beyond my limited ability to shut up about it. The reason I townread you was you saying the same thing about E-1 and intent in 130, which to me sounded like you were crumbing PR. It may have went unnoticed once, but I don't think repeating it will also be unnoticed. So, straight up: Are you or are you not a PR? I obviously do not wish you to full claim at this point unless you do have useful information, but if I was mafia you would have been the night kill for sure.

this right here
when this was posted furtive had a single vote on him (Val's vote btw)
and had a little pressure, but Eyes was also getting pushed for his weird "scum pairing POE" method of scumhunting
then after Eyes forces the claim from furtive his partner (the more TR of the two) counterclaims

Is this not a bit obvious from mafia though? And like Eyes says, why don't mafia eliminate Furtive night one if he's pegged him for a role. How much suspicion was Furtive under at this point? Because if the heat was on, it does not seem like a ridiculous idea for Furtive to claim at that point before someone else does. Especially when we had players with two roles in the game meaning the other could be protected if a doctor was around.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think everything seems fairly conclusive now, but happy to hold off for a bit if need be.

What's the reasoning behind your sudden switch to Furtive? Just believe Val over him?

That laziness you display really ticks me off. You're obviously not reading and don't ant to so regardless of your alignment I am not too keen on babysitting and spoonfeeding you on this one

Spoiler: Me Be Like

I dunno, I have no idea how to read some of these posts from Eyes without meta. On the one hand it's a deflection away from explaining why the vote change from Val to Furtive (again similar to TT in this regard). But also, I'd expect mafia to give a brief exaplantion as to appear somewhat reasonable and avoid suspicion.

I'm gonna go make a post outlining the arguments for Eyes shortly.

[MalcolmTucker]

Okay - so the POV of Eyes being mafia.

This is Eyes' first serious post with any attempt and analysis and I believe the first mention of Val.

"I dunno about Val so I'll take your word for it. If forced to give an opinion I'd agree with the notion in general, although it may come down to aomeone's particular character."

This is a bit null and feels kinda cagey, like someone who wants to get their partner's name in there without saying much in particular.

When I pushed Eyes on giving more details re their reads:

"Everything boils down to feelings on day one. I may feel like someone is playing like a townie or that someone is playing like I would play as a PR, but without any conclusive information this is still just my feelings."

I dunno, this one could be looked at either way. There were several points where Eyes was cautious was like, but it's also fair enough not to be too strong on someone in turn one...I'm the same generally. But other than TT I'm not convinced Eyes has exactly been consistent or all too open about all of his reads beyond vague suspicions. Putting Val in his day two elim pool seems unlikely, but again was a passing post and didn't have much of an impact on the game.

When TT pushed Eyes on giving an explanation for his reads:

"Maybe post game or maybe never."

Again this feels a bit too flippant for a potential mafia trying to clear their name, but it also noticeably doesn't give away lots of info. Luke calls it a bad post and Eyes' later exaplantion kinda left me more confused than I was beforehand. Just generally here there are a lot of "it can't be me because I'm town" type posts.

Val's post 359 is interesting - it points out contradictions in Eyes' views on Furtive but also seems to go in kinda heavily if they're teammates. I dunno, Val's post-vote suspicion of Eyes could be a misdirect...this kinda consistently feels like mafia trying to draw heat onto someone else who's perhaps townie and made some confused posts.

Eyes response to TT asking for their mafia read on me to be explained.

"THIS IS NOT HOW I OPERATE. GODDAMN. How many times do I have to explain I was town hunting from the get go. Everyone was a suspect until I either town read them or decided they can't be scum with someone else in particular. And you try6ing to turn the table isn't good either. I asked you to point out what was townie about any of the three so you are the one supposed to town case Malcolm."

Again this is the double-edged sword where Eyes manages to simultaneously come across as incredibly mafia by just dodging the question with a justification it's their playing style, while also making a post that seems kinda townie due to that. The frustration seems genuine.

Post 392 is bizarre and I said so at the time insofar as this was the easy point for mafia to stick the boot in on Furtive and Eyes' vote for TT seems quite genuine here.

I dunno, Eyes' play in general has been all over the place at times. If TT is mafia they've made a great call. But there's a lot of dodging general enquiries which makes it harder to get a read on them which is also incredibvly convenient for mafia, and the post on the previous page about TT has a bit more energy and conviction about it as if it's this is like a final push. But then that could also just be a final bid to convince me of what has been a consistent read.

[MalcolmTucker]

you can say that again when you turn guilty tomorrow

ask yourself why Eyes didn't get NK'd for softing cop here

Because scum (you) knew there is NO COP in the setup. The mere fact that all I thought of was faking a COP claim should be enough to prove I didn't know which setup we were in.

Yeah this isn't convincing for me at all personally, I know it's an odd post but no cop is going to be that obvious right before an elimination occurs.

[MalcolmTucker]

On the one hand it's a deflection away from explaining why the vote change from Val to Furtive (again similar to TT in this regard).

Oh, on that bit...

I will be upset if this game is hammered before I get to re-read tomorrow.

So, yes voice who you think it is between the two, but please don't put either one at e-1

You want the truth? I don't know which if them to believe. They're both talking with much confidence I'm impressed how convincing the liar of them is.

That said, I suspect I might be a "little bit" biased because I saw that crumb and I don't want to be be wrong. This in effect means Val is probably the more convincing of the two but my bias is not letting me see it.

I am also struggling to see why furtive crumbed on day one. Was he planning on a fake claim all along?

So in conclusion I am going to relay my vote to the one player I trust the most at this point. LUKEWARM. That's the one player left out there that I can bet the game on being a townie. TTTT's flawed reasoning for voting me and furtive's mexican stand off with Val degraded my reads on them both. Val was never a solid town read either and neither was Malcolm, but if Val is the true PR then I guess Malcolm is cleared as well as he made his choice clear already.

So..

whomever Luke decides to vote I'll vote

Then Luke decided to vote furtive and I soon followed. I even quoted Luke's vote in my post

I'm not malding I'm just saying I know I will post regularly until I die so please vote me and I can be done with the game.

Okay

VOTE: Furtive

VOTE: Furtive

E-1 I think (VC at the top and only Luke voted since)

See, I dunno, a bit like Eyes' defence this doesn't really clear you at all for me. Trusting a town leader can sometimes make sense as a townie but can also be a useful mafia strategy to hide behind their decisions. TT did the same thing after Val's claim, where he asked Luke for a read instead of making his own, which is also really suspicious to me.

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcolm
his entire game has been lazy scum
he brought you to today because you already said you were leaning towards voting me
this is exactly why I said you and Luke should be close lipped about your reads

See I'm not sure I'm buying this and it feels a bit forced to me...Luke had been the strongest town player so far by all accounts but it's not as if he was locked in 100% in Eyes. Indeed we can't know that because he wasn't giving all that many reads. Luke going kinda makes sense either way, I'm inexperienced on the site and it gives remaining mafia (either way) the chance to convince a new player to back them over the other. Luke was always a solid option for getting rid of.

[MalcolmTucker]

Do either of you guys have an honest meta read on the other from previous encounters? Bearing in mind I can potentially go back and check how valid it is.

[MalcolmTucker]

TT did the same thing after Val's claim, where he asked Luke for a read instead of making his own, which is also really suspicious to me.

I was trying to be thorough
why was it suspicious?

You had been TR'ing Furtive for a while but then conveniently started to suspect Val was telling the truth in the space of a few posts. Val's claim came immediately after Lukewarm began to suspect one of me or you could be mafia, while at the same time suggesting it might not be Eyes.

[MalcolmTucker]

Eye's sheeping Luke's vote was classic scumplay
he is removing himself from ownership of his vote on a mis-elim
he is also blindly following another player whose alignment town!Eyes wouldn't know for certain

1- I said Like was the only one I still trusted my townread on
2- How was I supposed to tell which way Luke was going to vote beforehand? I had already locked my vote to his, so if he had decided to vote Val that's where I would have had to vote.

This still feels lazy though, why immediately lock your vote to another player instead of making your own read based on your own suspicions? Luke's a great player but not as if he immediately had the game solved...especially when we all ended up getting it wrong.

[MalcolmTucker]

Luke was always a solid option for getting rid of.

no offense
but I would have a much easier time convincing Luke right now
his experience would help him see Eye's scum intent in a lot of what he's done this game
there's no way I'm bringing you into today as scum
you were clear yesterday that you are intending to vote me

Then why did Val's claim come immediately after a post where Lukewarm started to suspect me and you, while giving Eyes a soft clear? I don't believe you've acknowledged this yet but do you feel there's no coincidence.

[MalcolmTucker]

I dunno, I can kind of see the logic of us staying quiet, but by the same token I reckon there could have been some value in Luke and myself taking some time to figure things out and develop better reads as a team.

Like...if your concern was that Eyes would take me into the final day once I'd made my reads clear, why did you not rescind your vote and try to convince me at that point? Because if your logic is I was going to vote for you either way, your town plan had failed and a new one would have to be devised.

[MalcolmTucker]

Above post is to TT.

[MalcolmTucker]

Then why did Val's claim come immediately after a post where Lukewarm started to suspect me and you, while giving Eyes a soft clear? I don't believe you've acknowledged this yet but do you feel there's no coincidence.

I have no idea why he claimed when he did
like how am I supposed to answer this?

Because the logic here is that Val claimed immediately after Luke began to suspect you were mafia. If your strategy as a team was to eliminate Eyes instead of Furtive, this was beginning to slip away once Luke went in the other direction. The counter-claim instead took any heat away from that though.

[MalcolmTucker]

Like if you're town I get you won't have an answer to it, but it's an incredibly strong bit of evidence for you/Val potentially being the team.

[MalcolmTucker]

I wonder if the scum team left me alive to lead a miselim on furtive.

Eyes never does that after seeing the soft.

I think that a Val+shotbun team, even if they have the idea of leaving me alive for that reason, kills one of tttt or Malcolm.

So I am definitely reconsidering there being scum inside tttt Malcolm during my re read

Val that was the loudest soft that you are a PR I have ever seen.

But I am not killing a claimed pr without the words "I cc it"

And in this situation, I **think** you should out your claimed role and everything.

Like these are absolutely not the posts of someone who - when Furtive came back innocent - was absolutely going to vote for Eyes this round without any second thought.

[MalcolmTucker]

Oh, I seem to remember now that I specifically told furtive to claim whether he was a PR but

not to claim which

if he is. Thinking about it this is a strong evidence in my favor because -once gain- mafia had either rolecopped furtive and thus already know he's a Tracker or they rolecopped Shotbun and could have guessed furtive was a Tracker. The one thing about it is Val could not have countered if furtive stopped at confirming he was a PR without saying which.

This kinda does make sense a little bit, at least makes your role fishing look less suspicious if nothing else.

[MalcolmTucker]

Assume that I am mafia.

I already know furtive is a Tracker either way

. Why do I ask him not to specify if the plan is to counter his claim?

this is a scumslip
there is not reason scum would know furtive is Tracker before the claim
you knew this because you rolecopped him N1

Is he not using a hypothetical scenario here where mafia have identified the tracker first turn?

[MalcolmTucker]

But why am I role fishing at all as mafia? I saw the crumb. That much we can agree on. Right? I either checked furtive so I do not need to fish for his role or I checked shotbun and got doctor and the only other PR that appears with doctor in this column is tracker so I already know furtive is tracker and I don't need to fish for his role. Or are you saying that I wanted to confirm furtive as the target of protection for the still living doctor for one more night?

Yeah but if you checked Shotbun and not Furtive then the concern would be over you fishing for Furtive to reveal at all in the first place. You getting Furtive to out themselves for Val to fake-claim works as a mafia strategy. My only concern is whether it works as a win strategy or not given you were always likely to come under suspicion for it.

[MalcolmTucker]

in the meantime
how about everyone just says how we will know if they are scum
what are your tells?
thanks

∆this is a serious question
I'll start
when I'm scum I have a hard time relaxing
and I find it hard to stay motivated and be as active
if the game state stalls and TTTT isn't stirring up shit
he be scum

This was one of TT's early posts which is interesting...he has generally been active but there was a noticeable dip in said activity after the role reveals.

[MalcolmTucker]

also Shotbun
I feel like there is enough info out here where you can make a non-random vote
if you don't want to put ofmercia at E-1
why not start another wagon on the next scummiest person?
this isn't a rhetorical question
there are legit gameplay reasons why you might not want to do that
I'm just curious what your thinking is here

before you ask..
my townbros are
lukewarm
shotbun
malcolm

Out of interest, what was your logic behind this Shotbun TR TT? You'd already had some suspicions before, briefly switched to TR without explanation, and then flipped back to them being your top SR above even Eyes at one point, even though I'm never really sure why this was the case.

[MalcolmTucker]

But the point here is that if you are mafia, you don't need Furtive to specify if Shotbun has been checked because you already know. Going by that logic, it's perfectly reasonable for you to ask Furtive to soft-reveal if he's then actually giving away his full role to the mafia.

[MalcolmTucker]

Assume that I am mafia.

I already know furtive is a Tracker either way

. Why do I ask him not to specify if the plan is to counter his claim?

this is a scumslip
there is not reason scum would know furtive is Tracker before the claim
you knew this because you rolecopped him N1

Is he not using a hypothetical scenario here where mafia have identified the tracker first turn?

he is saying mafia got a PR on night1
it's his defense for the rolefishing of furtive
he's saying "why would I rolefish if I already knew furtive was a PR?"
because he says scum found a PR night1 (either furtive or shotbun)
but the only way he knows scum got a PR on night1 is if he is scum
this is not an assumption you or I are making as town because we don't know their night actions
his mistake is he thinks town knows scum got a PR night1 because scum killed Shotbun N3
but that doesn't mean scum had to have found a PR night1
plz let me know if this doesn't make sense to you and I can try and explain further

Isn't his logic here that the Shotbun elimination on turn two indicates mafia probably found him early on? Therefore if he is mafia, and this is indeed what happened, he doesn't need Furtive to specify or reveal fully? He didn't ask Furtive to do so, but then that would indicate mafia leanings. Feel like this line of enquiry is now getting quite muddled, need to think it through again.

[MalcolmTucker]

Again: To what purpose? If he ain't gonna full claim then I gain no new information AND my partner can't CC either.

But again, is the logic not that you don't need him to role claim because you've already found Shotbun? Something which links up with the turn two elimination.

[MalcolmTucker]

I was going to say you could still get some beneficial info from knowing Furtive had a role if you identified Shotbun as doctor on night one, which it's fairly clear mafia did in retrospect.

But yeah, I can kind of see your point here. If Furtive claims in the following round there's perhaps scope to eliminate them there; if it's turn two and mafia want to force out his role they probably want to know it on that turn, since you need to eliminate Shotbun on turn two anyway, and there's a decent chance Furtive tracks mafia. Plus just having another townie in the game who's confirmed is useful from a town POV.

[MalcolmTucker]

Assume that I am mafia.

I already know furtive is a Tracker either way

. Why do I ask him not to specify if the plan is to counter his claim?

this is a scumslip
there is not reason scum would know furtive is Tracker before the claim
you knew this because you rolecopped him N1

Is he not using a hypothetical scenario here where mafia have identified the tracker first turn?

he is saying mafia got a PR on night1
it's his defense for the rolefishing of furtive
he's saying "why would I rolefish if I already knew furtive was a PR?"
because he says scum found a PR night1 (either furtive or shotbun)
but the only way he knows scum got a PR on night1 is if he is scum
this is not an assumption you or I are making as town because we don't know their night actions
his mistake is he thinks town knows scum got a PR night1 because scum killed Shotbun N3
but that doesn't mean scum had to have found a PR night1
plz let me know if this doesn't make sense to you and I can try and explain further

Isn't his logic here that the Shotbun elimination on turn two indicates mafia probably found him early on? Therefore if he is mafia, and this is indeed what happened, he doesn't need Furtive to specify or reveal fully? He didn't ask Furtive to do so, but then that would indicate mafia leanings. Feel like this line of enquiry is now getting quite muddled, need to think it through again.

as town, given what you know about the game reveals and the setup, are you certain scum found a PR on night1
if the answer is no, then why is Eyes so certain and using this as a defense against his rolefishing?

I'm not certain no. But it seems like a solid theory: the Val counter-claim followed by the Shotbun elimination is a pretty incredible turn from a mafia POV. Shotbun had been fairly quiet and could have been forced to reveal their role next turn if not identified and if they'd come under pressure. I dunno, it's not a guarantee, but it seems the mafia were either onto something or very, very lucky.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm trying to be here in realtime for this
but I need to step away again

Don't worry, I'm not going to hammer tonight. Heading shortly myself and wanting to sleep on this.

[MalcolmTucker]

Again: To what purpose? If he ain't gonna full claim then I gain no new information AND my partner can't CC either.

But again, is the logic not that you don't need him to role claim because you've already found Shotbun? Something which links up with the turn two elimination.

Malcolm, Malcolm. Had furtive not

fully

claimed he would not have been CC'd and if had not been CC'd he would not have been eliminated,

and if he had not been eliminated then all I did there is point out shotgun to where he should be on N2

which guarantees another result on D3. Now imagine that I was Mafia and I was the lim on D2. furtive's result would have been a hard one (guilty or innocent). That's poor play if you ask me. If I was mafia I'd have either asked him to FULLY claim or not at all.

town!Eyes would have no idea Shotbun was doc
another perspective slip here

I don't think that's what he's saying, he's arguing mafia scouted out doctor on night 1 which in retrospect makes sense because otherwise it was a hugely lucky day 2 elimination.

[MalcolmTucker]

@Eyes I'm reading over the above post...one thing I'm unsure re, if mafia know Furtive is tracker because they've checked Shotbun night one, why would you need Furtive to specify if you have already found Shotbun and therefore know anyone else claiming is the tracker under that scenario? In fact, it could arguably look even better for you if you're able to claim tracker without Furtive having to reveal their exact role.

But then...why does Val eventually claim cop if mafia found Shotbun anyway?

[MalcolmTucker]

Sorry, I see there are scenarios where we can have both doctor/tracker and doctor/cop. So Val's claim was presumably to out Furtive entirely.

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcolm
you are missing my point
It isn't whether or not scum hit a PR on night1
It's that Eyes is revealing here that he KNOWS THEY DID

He isn't really saying that though, is he? He's saying that judging by how they went about eliminating players in the game mafia checked Shotbun on night one. This is solid - the chances of them just inadvertently hitting the doctor seem quite slim.

[MalcolmTucker]

Again: To what purpose? If he ain't gonna full claim then I gain no new information AND my partner can't CC either.

But again, is the logic not that you don't need him to role claim because you've already found Shotbun? Something which links up with the turn two elimination.

Malcolm, Malcolm. Had furtive not

fully

claimed he would not have been CC'd and if had not been CC'd he would not have been eliminated,

and if he had not been eliminated then all I did there is point out shotgun to where he should be on N2

which guarantees another result on D3. Now imagine that I was Mafia and I was the lim on D2. furtive's result would have been a hard one (guilty or innocent). That's poor play if you ask me. If I was mafia I'd have either asked him to FULLY claim or not at all.

town!Eyes would have no idea Shotbun was doc
another perspective slip here

Eyes is clearly saying this in retrospect here because we later knew Shotbun was the doc, come on man.

[MalcolmTucker]

My concern, however, re Eyes' post above, is the implication they'd have known a doc was in play at all. How did you know that at this point Eyes? If there was no doc in play, was your forced role reveal not just risking Furtive being dumped out by the mafia if nobody could protect them? After all, how would you have known anyone was around to protect a role player?

[MalcolmTucker]

We have two confirmed town in ofmercia and clidd. Both considered Eyes a scumread

This in particular was poor logic from Furtive though...townies get things wrong all the time. You, in particular along with me, thought ofmerica's play was incredibly poor. Why are you now citing him as a source for Eyes being mafia?

[MalcolmTucker]

Eyes
explain scumread on Malcolm plz
that's a good start

THIS IS NOT HOW I OPERATE. GODDAMN. How many times do I have to explain I was town hunting from the get go. Everyone was a suspect until I either town read them or decided they can't be scum with someone else in particular.

And you try6ing to turn the table isn't good either. I asked you to point out what was townie about any of the three so you are the one supposed to town case Malcolm

Apologies if this is the way you always play, and others may feel like it's a perfectly legitimate strategy, but this potentially strikes me as a useful way to be able to make it look like you're putting in the effort to actually have reads without having to nail your colours to the mast or explain them in detail at all in a way that could potentially expose someone who's mafia and having to fake suspicion.

If you TR one player but don't TR another then the latter player is clearly doing something which you don't think makes them worthy of a TR, especially when said player is active and we're a turn into the game.

I've said before I found this lazy and unhelpful at the time but not necessarily indicative of mafia, a mafia player would surely want to give a proper answer in order to effectively cover their tracks.

[MalcolmTucker]

TT, do you have previous meta on Eyes? That would help and I don't think you responded when I asked yesterday.

[MalcolmTucker]

I quite like the Clidd stuff though, hadn't clocked that.

[MalcolmTucker]

I want to hear this
why can't the scum team be one of:
Val-Shotbun
Val-Eyes
Eyes-Shotbun
furtive-midwaybear
?

I'd be very surprised if 2 of val, shotbun and eyes made up the mafia. It's not impossible, but the inner cynic in me finds something very off about the louder townspeople glad-handing each other and giving out townreads like christmas presents.

Again...if we're using reads from confirmed townies...Furtive did say this and in retrospect I'm inclined to agree, much as he was having a frustrated go at us. Like Eyes does similar to you throughout parts of the game TT...soft scum reads on Val without ever going further on it.

[MalcolmTucker]

Why would mafia misremember the name of a player though? That's surely the type of thing you're careful about.

[MalcolmTucker]

What do you think of the above explanation TT?

[MalcolmTucker]

how about everyone just says how we will know if they are scum
what are your tells?

I'm not sure I like this. I know it is adressed to the entire playerlist, but inviting our scumteam to reflect on their scumplay and identify any weaknesses in it right at the start of this game doesn't appear to be in towns interest, whether they share the results of that introspection or not. If they do, and respond with legitimate self-meta, then they will only really be sharing what they intend to avoid this game, and I don't see how the answers to the question will be useful in sorting.

That said, I see no scum motivation for having asked the question either, and I get the overall sense of a legitimate attempt to spark discussion. I just don't think TTTT is going to get what TTTT

thinks

they are going to get from it, and they should probably think on that before asking it again in other games if they are town here, which overall is how I perceive that slot.

This is kinda interesting. Like, it's a bit of a pop at TT for asking the question, but notably Val then clarifies it wasn't necessarily mafia to ask the question. Sort of feels like a bit of soft disagreement without any lasting consequences as such.

[MalcolmTucker]

I know Eyes is scum
so I know he is lying
what matters is what you think of it

My general view going through the entire game now is that it genuinely could be either of you. There are genuinely some mafia tells in there that could apply to the two of you. Deferring your reads on the Val/Furtive saga to Lukewarm was convenient for you both. Your mild suspicion of Val and TR's of Furtive which were nevertheless cast aside for the eventual vote are suspicious. The fact Val suspected Eyes but gave them an out in replying was suspicious. The fact Val claimed immediately after Lukewarm suggested you or me could be mafia is also suspicious. Interactions I'm looking through between you and Val could read as classic mafia pairing, not that many direct accusations against each other but soft disagreements from time to time that go nowhere in the end.

[MalcolmTucker]

Okay...one major thing for Eyes directly, if you crumbed Furtive's claim directly and pushed him toward it, why were you not more consistent when it came to the actual vote? Like, from that POV, why would Furtive crumb a potential role reveal if he was going to false claim? Surely he'd just come out with it. So if you'd spotted this, why were you so willing to defer to Luke? Like, there's a lot from that turn that indicates TT as well, considering they also townread but then conveniently sided with Val quickly, but they didn't TR Furtive to the point where they asked them to out their role.

[MalcolmTucker]

Your mild suspicion of Val and TR's of Furtive which were nevertheless cast aside for the eventual vote are suspicious.

you didn't read my big catchup post did you?

I have, have I not mentioned elsewhere that it was quite a suspect way for Val to approach things? It'd be one of my main reasons for reading Eyes as mafia and it's a good spot.

[MalcolmTucker]

Okay...one major thing for Eyes directly, if you crumbed Furtive's claim directly and pushed him toward it, why were you not more consistent when it came to the actual vote? Like, from that POV, why would Furtive crumb a potential role reveal if he was going to false claim? Surely he'd just come out with it. So if you'd spotted this, why were you so willing to defer to Luke? Like, there's a lot from that turn that indicates TT as well, considering they also townread but then conveniently sided with Val quickly, but they didn't TR Furtive to the point where they asked them to out their role.

Since we're on a new page, can you respond to this please Eyes. My gut has been telling me TT but there's a lot about this role reveal that is still very fishy and it's increasingly one of the main reasons I've not cast my vote yet.

[MalcolmTucker]

Yes I did read that post extensively, I must have partially misread what you said re Furtive, you're harsher on him than I remembered there. But then that wouldn't undermine the idea of a pairing between you/Val...you initially TR Furtive until your potential teammate in this scenario claims. All while you've been largely silent for a while after the initial claim, which comes one post after Lukewarm suspects you could be mafia. Is that not suspicious?

[MalcolmTucker]

I honestly don't know what to say more. I was convinced furtive was a PR, but then Val came in and countered, and they both argued each for themselves and I didn't know which to believe. You can't tell me Val wasn't convincing enough since you also ended up voting furtive. The only thing I can repeat is I left it to Luke when there was no way I could have forecasted how he would vote. I didn't ask for his read in advance even. I simply didn't know which way to go and I didn't want to make the wrong decision so I relayed it to the one I trusted the most.

But you know what? Hold on a little bit

I've read back from the 200-300 posts onwards and honestly in isolation your request for Furtive to reveal their status does not look horrendously bad in isolation, to an extent it looks like a frustrated townie. I just didn't get the same vibe from 130, but it's unlikely you'd have checked Furtive night one because it's much more likely mafia checked Shotbun I reckon.

My concern here is still...why defer to Luke so easily on the actual vote? Like, if Furtive is crumbing a role as early as 130 from your POV, why did you not push harder and back them when push came to shove? What could so easily convince you that someone who you thought was so role player-like that they should out their role was suddenly lying all along? Like I know you're addressing this in the post I'm replying to here, but while Val was convincing, you'd directly asked a role player to reveal themselves because you were convinced they had a role but then suddenly cast those beliefs aside.

[MalcolmTucker]

All while you've been largely silent for a while after the initial claim, which comes one post after Lukewarm suspects you could be mafia. Is that not suspicious?

this was already brought up and discussed
I was not here when all the claims discussion was going on
I posted saying I wasn't available
then I went on VLA

also...
I was not at all being pressured by Lukewarm
like there was zero chance I was the elim there

Lukewarm mentioned in two separate posts you or I were potential mafia. You almost certainly wouldn't have been the elimination but if no pressure came onto Furtive for his role claim the game could've definitely started drifting towards me or you being seen as guilty.

[MalcolmTucker]

if you wanna talk about timing

Malcolm go read posts 299 through 379 again
here's what happened:
Eyes posts his weird manufactured scum pair process of elimination reads in 299
Eyes gets pushed for it by me, you, Luke, and Shotbun
Eyes gets frustrated
Val shows up in post 355 and SRs both furtive and Eyes
but Val votes furtive and doesn't even give a reason for SRing Eyes
instead he actually gives Eyes an out to explain his reads in 359
classic scum distancing here - SR your partner but don't apply any pressure
especially when pressure was already being applied to Eyes!
Eyes then replies to Val's question in 359 "which post made change your SR on Furtive to a TR?" (not an exact quote) by pointing out the soft in 374 and asking Furtive to claim in 375

My general read on 299 to 379 is that Eyes' play is weird but borders on obstructive from a mafia POV and just put him under more unnecessary pressure if he is mafia. I'd expect mafia to come up with some basic reasoning for their reads instead of basically refusing to do so, especially when mafia have played quite well this game, irrespective of which one of you it turns out to be. Again this is where meta would help but you obviously don't recall all that much from beforehand.

Likewise the list he came up with is odd but feels like such a basic slip if he's mafia, I don't think it proves anything. The actual logic of putting together mafia pairings and eliminating them after that is not a terrible idea.

[MalcolmTucker]

Val's defence of Eyes is one of the strongest things you've got from 299 to 379, it's very convenient. But you suspected Eyes and never spotted it at the time as being weird, even after Furtive claimed, despite your initial TR of Furtive. It could also easily just be mafia trying to appear townie by asking genuine questions of any given player, whether on their team or not. My approach has been similar at times.

But the convenience of Eyes begging Furtive to role claim right after this, with Val's later counter, feels quite strong for me. Especially when Eyes later backed Val anyway.

[MalcolmTucker]

In isolation I wouldn't find Eyes' 299 to 379 posts too mafia-leaning given they feel more obstructive in a way that wouldn't benefit mafia. But the forced role outing followed by trusting Val over Furtive right after feels a bit like the most suspect thing out of everything between the two of you.

[MalcolmTucker]

My concern here is still...why defer to Luke so easily on the actual vote? Like, if Furtive is crumbing a role as early as 130 from your POV, why did you not push harder and back them when push came to shove? What could so easily convince you that someone who you thought was so role player-like that they should out their role was suddenly lying all along? Like I know you're addressing this in the post I'm replying to here, but while Val was convincing, you'd directly asked a role player to reveal themselves because you were convinced they had a role but then suddenly cast those beliefs aside.

Put yourself in my place and tell me how you would have felt at that point. And why I defer to someone I strongly TR is simple really: I am known to be stubborn but often wrong and I feared the same could be the case.

Yeah I get why this could happen but you strike me as more of a conviction player for the most part, like when you've actually basically asked someone to out themselves as a role player because you've spotted that they are, why mount so little of a case for them?

[MalcolmTucker]

Yeah fair enough, I'm just trying to be as conclusive as we can but we likely won't go any further on it. Going to have one last think over but despite my earlier gut feeling of TT, that sequence of events is increasingly convincing me you're mafia.

[MalcolmTucker]

I mean maybe next time I will trust my gut more and then discover I was wrong and get blamed for being shitty and losing the game for town

I mean, if you're town I don't particularly blame you for the switch, can't say I wouldn't have done the same myself...but it also reads as if it could have been an impressive mafia play. If you and Val were a team it was well coordinated.

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcolm, do as you wish. It's the same thing here. If we win I get no credit but if we lose it is you who gets the blame and not me. I've done everything I can to explain my thoughts. If you still think I'm lying then it's on you not me. I just want this game to be over as soon as possible because I can't take this pressure much longer. Sorry if I sound bitter btw.

Fair enough, if you're mafia then you've played incredibly well, same to TT. Going to take one last scan for anything I may have missed then make a final vote so I don't prolong the misery for the three of us all much longer.

[MalcolmTucker]

No worries. I know what deep tunnel feels like. If furtive is scum though we will be 4 v 1 tomorro and we can afford to mislim me provided TTTT is the lim in the final 3. fair enough?

If you are talking to me,

there are a few stars that would have to align for both me and TTTT to be in the final 3

, if that's where this game gets to, but I assure you I will be taking a good, hard critical look at both remaining slots in that case, whomever they are.

I'm not even resolved that I'll automatically be advocating for your lim tomorrow either even if furtive is flipped today rather than tomorrow - I have my suspicion, and it's a strong one, but it's a suspicion all the same, not a guilty, and I'm not infallible. Night play is a thing.

Interesting exchange...either some top trolling here from Val or decent evidence you two aren't a team, feels unlikely mafia would be so on-the-nose. But interesting Val says they wouldn't automatically advocate for Eyes' elimination.

[MalcolmTucker]

Alright, good to go. Think we are all more than ready for this to end.

VOTE: Eyes without a face

Genuinely still split toward the end but think this ultimately makes more sense. Sorry if I've lost it for the town.

[MalcolmTucker]

Should have stuck with my initial gut reading then. Apologies Eyes.

[MalcolmTucker]

And to you. That's a bummer.

[MalcolmTucker]

Should have stuck with my initial gut reading then. Apologies Eyes.

In retrospect you were blaming me for not trusting my own gut and then you did exactly the same.

No worries. You did your best.

Yeah honestly I think if you'd have stuck to your gut re Furtive it'd have been a no brainer for me, but like I said I see why you switched from a town POV. Think I'd spent so long on it I started to believe I was overthinking TT and then began to switch where I was leaning today.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think the main point for me was in a Val-Eyes pairing Val was townier and probably wouldn't kamikaze. It pointed to a townier scum partner for me.

A fair point, though my reading was if Eyes had forced the reveal they couldn't also counter-claim too on top of that.

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcolm, sorry I didn't share my reads before I died - I really should have - and I probably would have if I had not allowed myself to get over gamed. I generally play one game at a time, but I managed to get up to 3 games simultaneously right before I died,and it was just too much for me to actually reread this game.

My final read of the game was that it was never Eyes, but I didn't know who it was between Malcolm and TTTT - but I was not confident in my take enough for me to leave it for posterity

No worries mate, could understand the logic even if I didn't necessarily agree. I was just in that uncertain position where my gut said TT but a lot of logic was starting to say Eyes, very tough one.

[MalcolmTucker]

Luke - who were you leaning towards being scum at the end of day3?

Not Eyes. That was all I had.

Subject: Newbie 2088 Dead PT

Lukewarm mentioned in two separate posts you or I were potential mafia. You almost certainly wouldn't have been the elimination but if no pressure came onto Furtive for his role claim the game could've definitely started drifting towards me or you being seen as guilty.

nah that wasn't the gamestate at the time
Eyes was more widely suspected there than you or me
then Val showed up and boom
all pressure off Eyes

Hmmm

I I still have not re-read this game. Should happen tomorrow. But my intent now is to reread assuming both furtive and eyes as town

I wonder if the scum team left me alive to lead a miselim on furtive.

Eyes never does that after seeing the soft.

I think that a Val+shotbun team, even if they have the idea of leaving me alive for that reason, kills one of tttt or Malcolm.

So I am definitely reconsidering there being scum inside tttt Malcolm during my re read

Looking back at what I was saying immediately before Val's claim, I kind of feel like a Val+Eyes team just... Doesn't fake claim.

Also, TTTT is being disingenuous here

I really thought that Malcolm was going to nail you for this. TTTT

I was on the right tracks but never quite pinned it down.

I think what swayed me was a lot of my TT evidence felt circumstantial and at times disconnected. Whereas my Eyes evidence felt like it lined up better re the forced role reveal and later counter-claim.

[MalcolmTucker]

If you are talking to me,

there are a few stars that would have to align for both me and TTTT to be in the final 3

, if that's where this game gets to, but I assure you I will be taking a good, hard critical look at both remaining slots in that case, whomever they are.

I'm not even resolved that I'll automatically be advocating for your lim tomorrow either even if furtive is flipped today rather than tomorrow - I have my suspicion, and it's a strong one, but it's a suspicion all the same, not a guilty, and I'm not infallible. Night play is a thing.

In retrospect, this is a bold but very funny troll of us townies.

[MalcolmTucker]

My true nightmare would have been for you to night kill Eyes, and then I had to sort between the two of you. omg.

What I found hilarious was that so much of my case for TT could have applied to myself. Good thing initially Eyes made their vote for TT clear on final turn or things could have been even more confusing.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think what swayed me was a lot of my TT evidence felt circumstantial and at times disconnected. Whereas my Eyes evidence felt like it lined up better re the forced role reveal and later counter-claim.

this is exactly what I was going to point to next
what exactly is your TTTT scum case?
a bunch of weird posts and an ugly avatar?
look at the actual motivations behind the actions
something like that

I really lucked out with the timing of Val's entry and then Eye's reveal of the soft
I didn't think I had a chance until I saw that Christmas gift all wrapped up for me

There were a few things I pointed to.

I dunno if it was your motivation, but Val claiming right after Luke suspected you for perhaps the first time was suspect to me. Although if you don't agree it was a much easier defence.

For a player who had been on top of everything on turn one, I found your sudden move from TR to SR of Furtive very convenient and simplistic. But again...Eyes looked guiltier on this count to me.

Also, just between you and Val in general, there was minimal interaction in general. Like obviously mafia can interact more to fool townies but it's risky with any slip-ups. Trying to fly under the radar can be a good approach. You didn't particularly put much heat onto each other aside from occasional small prods that never really went anywhere. Like I say, the reveal to counter-claim was the only thing that swayed me to Eyes. Without that I'd have voted for you.

[MalcolmTucker]

In retrospect Eyes had a really solid town game, called you and spotted Furtive's claim. Great counter-claim from Val.

[MalcolmTucker]

I didn't mean to soft I just didn't want to get quickhammered like ofmercia

In retrospect the role reveal without revealing the actual role would have been better as Eyes suggested, but can see why you went full-on to ensure you were safe.

[MalcolmTucker]

In retrospect Eyes had a really solid town game, called you and spotted Furtive's claim. Great counter-claim from Val.

you guys got fucked by ofmercia
not just the unnecessary death
but you learned nothing from it
btw every gameday ended way too soon

Indeed, was very much an advocate from continuing that first turn, similarly with turn three.

[MalcolmTucker]

It's not that bad though. Hopefully my insulting tone will make them not follow noise with "SE" title next to their name and improve their game.

Their inexperience is kinda funny and I do feel bad for how easily they got pulled around by your loud day 1. I feel they kinda knew I was town even but just relieved that the day 1 elim wasn't them. Classic new player experience. They'l get there eventually, when they shake that fear of death off.

Why are you acting like this? You repeatedly refused to answer simple questions which would have made you look more townie. It was such a simple thing to do and instead you let a mafia player gain town cred by pushing for you to do so in a way that looked and felt legit.

First turn is always going to be tough to nail mafia. It's sort of a key component of the game...if you nail mafia first turn regularly in a 9-player setup it's not going to be very competitive because town inevitably win all the time. By that point you were clearly the best player to eliminate because you were actively playing against your win condition and refusing to help us simply because you got all upset we dared suspecting you.

Maybe instead of looking down on everyone else who was playing and made honest mistakes you could reflect on just refusing to cooperate with your own team because you thought you were above it.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but frustrating to see that you're being told by more experienced players your approach was counterproductive while still refusing to acknowledge that.

[MalcolmTucker]

Ofmercia - by the time you hammered, it probably didn't matter what you did anymore. But acting like you had nothing to do with the situation is disengenuous.

Once you had locked in your stance for DAYS it was probably too late.

But there was definitely a time when you had full control of the situation. Like, full control.

Hey guys, I think furtive is scum - Like, he has passed my ofmercia scum read.

Of Mercia, can you please give tttt a direct answer to his question about your game experience so my vote on furtive won't be disrupting TTTT's efforts to pressure an answer out of you

VOTE: furtive

I think the point is "don't destroy your slot in the future" and you are responding

"After I destroyed my slot it was impossible for me to have never destroyed my slot"

Which is totally missing the agency you had in the situation long before the hammer.

Indeed, if you come under suspicion in a game of mafia then irrespective of your alignment it's generally due to something you've said or done. Players don't tend to randomly target each other for the sake of it. It's an odd one because ofmerica's play was so obstructive to the point where we reckoned they might not actually be mafia, but it's somewhat impossible to play with someone on your team in the long-run when they don't answer simple questions because such an approach then rewards mafia themselves for refusing to cooperate or try to help the town.