Newbie 2093 | New Wave | Postgame

[ItalianoVD]

Hey hey, it's Mafia time!! Let's see if we can sniff out the scum quickly this game!!

Looks like we already have

VOTE: Asphodelus

[ItalianoVD]

Inside jokes ew.
I hope we won't have any jokes this game Big Terp - they can confuse things, which does unfortunately help the mafia.

Inside jokes ew.
I hope we won't have any jokes this game Big Terp - they can confuse things, which does unfortunately help the mafia.

Hey now!!

I read up on your game together. I have a little bit of meta from both of you. We’ll see how it goes this game.

[ItalianoVD]

Good Day,

I will begin by VOTE: ItalionoVoD for the simple, useful reason of "Get 7-UP".

Look forward to playing with you all (and in most cases, again).

What is "Get 7-UP".

This. Did we know each other in another life?

[ItalianoVD]

7-Up is a soda and a game.

It is, but your opening post is hard to understand. I’m assuming it’s an RVS post, but I don’t get it if it’s supposed to be a joke so I figured you are possibly deliberately trying to make it confusing. Am I wrong?

[ItalianoVD]

it would be helpful if everyone could give a brief overview of their experience

I’ve played mafia/wolf game, etc. since 2006. Take with that what you want.

[ItalianoVD]

Sorry, don’t really know what going on. Anyone care to fill me in quickly.

[ItalianoVD]

Sorry, don’t really know what going on. Anyone care to fill me in quickly.

abdbla said he didn't want to put Asph at E-2 even though he scumread Asph
so I put Asph at E-2
everybody (except abdla for some reason) said "TTTT you make no sense... Asph is on VLA"
and then Takemikazuchi02 in 60 assumed I am town

VOTE: Takemikazuchi02

Okay cool. Thanks. I take a look deeper later.

[ItalianoVD]

it would be helpful if everyone could give a brief overview of their experience

I’ve played mafia/wolf game, etc. since 2006. Take with that what you want.

how long have you been playing online forum mafia?

Since 2006.

[ItalianoVD]

UNVOTE: Asphodelus

I need to spend the day actually interacting with every slot. We’re looking to get scum killed today so we gotta be sure.

[ItalianoVD]

How does that assume you're town? You could be just maf pretending to be doing pro-town things.

Yup you’re right and that for you to find out.

[ItalianoVD]

*that’s

[ItalianoVD]

How does that assume you're town? You could be just maf pretending to be doing pro-town things.

I do not understand TTTT's interpretation of T02's 60.

Italiano seeming somewhat null to me right now. @Italiano, could you give your thoughts on the game so far as soon as you're able? You asked for someone to fill you in but didn't really do anything more than that once TTTT did so. This could be called a reach, but it seems a little strange to ask for help catching up considering how little actual content the game has so far, feels to me like wanting to look participatory but not actually doing anything to forward the gamestate.

You both decide to say this in the scum chat?

[ItalianoVD]

If you want me to forward the gamestate I can, but scum won’t like that because this game will be short. I’d rather take a laid back approach and follow someone I feel is towny.

[ItalianoVD]

Are you town Furtive?

[ItalianoVD]

You guys should take a look at game 2091 since half the players here played there and you may get an idea on our playstyles.

@Italiano

We decided in scum chat that TTTT's bullshit argument was bullshit? You're gonna need to try harder than that.

Oh sorry I guess I didn’t make it clear. Apologies.

[ItalianoVD]

How does that assume you're town? You could be just maf pretending to be doing pro-town things.

…feels to me like wanting to look participatory but not actually doing anything to forward the gamestate.

This is what I meant.

[ItalianoVD]

Italiano do you actually suspect either Take or Corn?

I couldn’t tell you, haven’t read much of the game, but I assume I won’t find anything substantive anyway. It’s only 4 pages. Things don’t really get good until around pg 10.

[ItalianoVD]

Italiano's play here is so brazenly unreasonable that I am actually wondering if it's some kind of advanced flailing that no scum would be bold enough to attempt.

And yet you still vote me.

[ItalianoVD]

I am town. Then again scum would probably say that too.

They would, but I’m gonna assume you’re telling the truth for now. Tell me about abdbla.

[ItalianoVD]

TTTT and Val. Are opening Hi and Intro posts still considered newbscum in the newbie queue or has it moved past that meta yet? I haven’t played a newbie game in probably like 2 years.

[ItalianoVD]

@Bigterp

This is my second ever forum and day start game. I have decent mafia experience but its in night start, pr heavy, non-forum formats.

The proper thing to do is answer the question then ask me in return. Why are you deflecting my question?

This response is pretty fascinating. No, the proper thing to do is to answer your question first. See TTTT’s 31

What's the point of putting Aspho at E-2 when she won't be here for the next two days to respond? And during RVS too.

While I somewhat agree here E2 is not E1 or hammer. Pressure is fine and there is always a point to everything. I also think RVS was long done by the time TTTT made his vote.

Everyone can see what you're doing though so we're not gonna get good information out of this.

I was hoping you could elaborate more on this. Like what were you trying to convey with this comment. Or I should say what did you want the rest of us to get out of it?

This 61 too. If you want to put someone at E-2 to create discussion then voting for Italiano or Corn over someone who's V/LA is a no brainer.

Why did you pick me and Corn here. What stood out or didn’t stand out for that matter about both of us that made you feel pressure would have been good for either?

How does that assume you're town? You could be just maf pretending to be doing pro-town things.

I facetiously responded to this, so I’ll give it a proper one.

You are right, actions or the lack thereof are not alignment indicative. I could be scum just going through the motions. I could be town that really hasn’t found a footing or gotten a hold in this game yet, however, it’s not for me to show that or not, it’s for you and others to figure it out.

TTTT is probably just spewing any bullshit he can think of to get reactions. I don't like his attitude but its NAI.

Your response here shows me that it worked.

You guys should take a look at game 2091 since half the players here played there and you may get an idea on our playstyles.

I’m happy you said this because I did check out that game and I gotta say that your tone from that game to this one is pretty seismic.

You're making no sense italiano. Explain your thought process about me and corn clearly.

I said what I said as more of a joke. I do that just to see what people say about it. It’s a reaction test. And I know it’s one of those things that are pretty much impossible to answer without the person having a particular perception of you, but even subtle little cues can mean a lot. I’ll just keep your responses in mind for later.

Thinking saying hi at the beginning of a game is in any way alignment indicative is the dumbest thing I've heard on this website.

I thought the same thing when I first came on this site, but then I saw it happen more times than I thought it should and I became somewhat of a believer. I have yet to use it myself, but I also don’t 100% disregard it.

[ItalianoVD]

We have 7 days so I wanna focus on Take first.

[ItalianoVD]

Italiano, you're being too mysterious for me. You said you were reaction checking Take with your strange jokes and implied that the reaction was suspicious, without really explaining why. 111 mostly explains your own behaviour rather than scumcasing Take.

Well it’s not complete. I need to talk and interact with Take first. Then I’ll get a better idea of where he is.

[ItalianoVD]

Vote Take with me abdbla.

VOTE: Takemikazuchi02

[ItalianoVD]

I explained this is my next post. Why are you ignoring that?

I didn't ignore it. It just wasn't relevant to what I was pointing out.

I'm not gonna argue about RVS semantics for a second game in a row. My definition of RVS means we will be in RVS for most of day 1.

Well then you'll be wrong. RVS doesn't have a set time frame. And even if it did what would

you

consider NOT RVS anymore? And then even if you considered it, doesn't mean everyone else does or should.

This 77 is what I meant.

Ahh. Duly noted.

Because you would both have been at E-2 if TTTT voted for you and we would have gotten much more information if that happened.

How do you think there would have been much more information? If you can please elaborate on that without using Asphodelus was V/LA.

What does this mean?

In 2091 your tone was pleasant. And you only became frustrated or agitated when it was genuinely warranted. I felt from your first 10 or so posts that you were town and I would have probably said so if I was in that game. This game so far what I get from your tone is agitation, annoyance, and irritation. I haven't seen a reason for this. It's pretty much the same playerlist as last game so it's not like you hate the players. I'm assuming it's because of a change in alignment from last game. Subtle changes in a person's psychology when playing as scum or and then as town is a scientific reality. I think this is what's happening here. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am in this instance.

Honestly, I don't care about the Dunning-Kruger of veterans thinking random meaningless things are actual tells because of their cognitive bias. I'm not gonna take this subject seriously from now on.

Again, they're not random or meaningless. It's also not foolproof, so I would never base my read 100% on it, but I also would not totally disregard because as has already been shown, it does have some bearing statistically. Just because you don't like it or think it's dumb doesn't mean isn't real.

Its better if you came out clean with your thoughts instead of acting you're smarter than everyone and justifying your stupid questions with "I was just testing you". Don't forget everyone has the same vote you do.

Oh no, I think I'm smart, but not smarter than everyone. This is how I play and like I said I've been playing forum mafia since 2006 so I've literally seen it all and done it all. It's hard not to come off as arrogant or overbearing, but I try my best not to.

[ItalianoVD]

I've answered your questions. I would appreciate it if you could answer mine now. 130 does none of that and it's making me much more okay voting you.

[ItalianoVD]

You don't think putting someone who's not in V/LA at E-2 would give us more information than someone who can't even reply? This is why your questions are stupid.

[ItalianoVD]

This is not answering the question. And that's why I asked you specifically to lay down your thoughts on how myself or Corn would get more information by being at E-2 than with Asphodelus.

[ItalianoVD]

I'd like to see what the other players from 2091 think about you.

[ItalianoVD]

I literally answered it though

You didn't actually. I asked if you could detail an answer for me, but you say this:

"You don't think putting someone who's not in V/LA at E-2 would give us more information than someone who can't even reply?"

You literally asked a question to "answer" a question. That's not an answer. I'm not trying to be difficult I'm trying to get you to open up because a lot of your answers to everyone have been frustrated one liners with nothing to go by. Where is the eloquence you had in 2091?

[ItalianoVD]

It's literally the reason why I asked you the question so that you can actually answer, but you know what don't worry about it. You don't have to answer it. I have all the information I need.

[ItalianoVD]

Italiano's gameplay at the moment is scum+. Town should make an effort to be open and I don't see that. I also think it's easy to fake reads by acting mysterious.

Yeah, yeah I know it seems like that, but if you could let me do what I do, I promise I will open up fully at the right time. Sometimes I don’t fully open up due to not wanting to give scum ideas that they may have not thought about. I know people can see it as anti-town, but

Oh another thing, just because this is the newbie queue, I treat no one like a newb. I give you my full force of even in the newbie games. The more you see me play the more you’ll understand what I do and why I do what I do.

Besides we have 7 days. What’s the rush?

[ItalianoVD]

Sorry meant to finish that…

…”I know people can see it as anti-town, but I am not intentionally being anti-town.”

[ItalianoVD]

To respond to 137, I don't think my answer will be as relevant as the others because I was scum in that game, so being an adversary with Take probably changed my view of them in that one, though their playstyle seems generally fine. Took them a bit to get to grips with the format but that's everyone. They seem quick to irritate which I'm not a huge fan of from a player perspective but from a game perspective it's probably NAI. In fact, I'd expect newbscum to be less quick to irritate and more focused on passing off an image of being cool, calm and collected. I know that's how I played my newbscum game.

This is a very thought out post. I highly appreciate it. +1

[ItalianoVD]

No rush. I'm scumleaning you despite your protests, but not voting you. I want to give others including Aspho time to read and contribute

Fair enough. I promise you it’ll work out.

[ItalianoVD]

Stop playing games Italiano and come clean about everything. i couldn't care less about your 300IQ secret plan.

I’m not playing games at all. I’m telling you what’s happening. I think you’re scum. Period.

[ItalianoVD]

And once against you don't aknowledge my reply.

Okay geez dude. Chill out.

Deadline Timer:

(expired on 2022-04-24 18:00:00)

Give the rest of the players time to come in so they can catchup and interact with the playerlist.

[ItalianoVD]

TTTT and Val. Are opening Hi and Intro posts still considered newbscum in the newbie queue or has it moved past that meta yet? I haven’t played a newbie game in probably like 2 years.

it's not

all

Hi and Intro posts
it's more "greeting the entire thread as a group with enthusiasm"
it was consistently happening in newbie games a few years ago
enough that it was greater than random
and I compiled some data and "outed" it
it was never a tell to rely upon
just another tool in the toolbox

Okay perfect thanks for that. Like I said, I’ve never actually used it myself, but I’ve seen it happen more times than I thought it should. Like I’m trying to tell Take, no one is using it as an end all be all read tool, but I think in this queue it is something you can’t just

fully

overlook

[ItalianoVD]

84 and 86 were the start, and since then he's kind of played up to the 'secret plan' shtick.

84 was straightforward
86 was weird

Yeah 86 was just ego and shouldn’t have been said. Apologies.

[ItalianoVD]

@TTTT

147 - I thought Take has already said that they did not assume that. Like I'm pretty sure they clarified immediately after.

please show me cuz I missed that

72

So 72 was for TTTT? I thought that was directed at me for 71.

[ItalianoVD]

Notice my response in 73 94 and 111. Hmm. If that wasn’t directed at me then I can remove that out of my list of what I scumread Take on. If so, my bad, apologies for the mixup.

[ItalianoVD]

Notice my response in 73 94 and 111. Hmm. If that wasn’t directed at me then I can remove that out of my list of what I scumread Take on. If so, my bad, apologies for the mixup.

This was for 183

[ItalianoVD]

@Italiano

No it was directed at TTTT

Apologies.

[ItalianoVD]

Welcome back Aspho. Hope you had a great time with the family.

Not sure if you’ve already done so and I just missed it, but what is your view so far of Take from last game to this game?

[ItalianoVD]

@Italiano

Please tell us how that misunderstanding made you think I'm scummy and what you think now.

Oh no I still think you’re scum. But that wasn’t a fair piece to scumread you with since I misunderstood it.

[ItalianoVD]

@TTTT

I tried so hard to come to an understanding with italiano

Lies. All you’ve been is short, sarcastic, and agitated with me, so you can stop the theatrics.

[ItalianoVD]

Italiano, please front-load your reasoning a bit more so it doesn't have to be wrung out of you over the series of half a dozen posts. I don't know if this is part of your "strategy" but it is getting old.

My only strategy is to interact with everyone in the playerlist.

Reactions are important in this game as everyone already knows. In my opinion Take has responded poorly to a reaction test. You on the other hand has responded in a way that is more calm and collected. I understand that to be within your scumrange as you were pretty cool and collected as scum in 2091. I’m not sure how to take that just yet.

You mentioned that

Take

was a type of player to get agitated and that you personally don’t like those type of players. But from what I’ve seen in 2091 there’s a much more engaged Take, a much more concise Take, and a lot less agitated and emotional except for duly warranted.

My point is that Take has been emotional and agitated before we even had our 1v1 when reading his ISO.

Maybe Take has an issue with SEs or veterans because I’ve seen some of the same agitation and annoyance directed at TTTT. Like I didn’t see this type of agitation from town!Take in 2091. Even when he was going at it with you and abdbla and got agitated and angry, it was achieved in a much more townie way.

Here he just seems to be annoyed that he’s playing the game regardless of interactions or anything else. I don’t see that level of excitement/engagement and that usually indicates a change in alignment.

[ItalianoVD]

What I’ve come to learn iirc, at least from scum!corn, is that he doesn’t flinch at pressure and votes. Did you find that to be true in your last game Take? Abdbla? Aspho?

[ItalianoVD]

You say I only got agitated when duly warranted but my talk with you warrants me being agitated and the game post the introductions stage has been dominated by my interactions with you and TTTT and most of the other's people's posts have commenting on said interactions.

I reiterate this again, before our interaction you were emotionally agitated by TTTT. Stop using me as an excuse.

[ItalianoVD]

Big Terp, can you elaborate on 232 and 233.

[ItalianoVD]

Italiano is basically saying they have it figured out, yet don't want to "rush" the game. The point is to win and eliminate mafia, not drag things out for whatever reason. Am I missing something here?

Yes, but it’s also to cover all your bases and make sure you are 100% comfortable with moving forward. It’s not a blitz and I could be wrong so that’s why taking the allotted time is important.

[ItalianoVD]

I'm comfortable with my vote on Italiano. Would like to see a second wagon to hopefully generate more and better discussion, but am not against getting Italiano back up to E-2 or even E-1 to see what might shake out.

Well you missed it. I was already at E1.

[ItalianoVD]

Big Terp, can you elaborate on 232 and 233.

Take was saying that TTTT's vote that took Aspho to E-2 was basically pointless because they were going to be V/LA for a few days and it wouldn't help to move the game along. Those post (232 233) showed several examples of Take doing, what I thought, was something TTTT was hoping to get out of a vote to move Aspho to E-2. A reaction. In fact, Take had several reactions to it. From that standpoint, if Aspho is scum Take is the partner.

Interesting take and something I actually had in the back of my mind but disregarded it because I figured it’d be obvious, like way too obvious.

Surely you’re not the only one to think this I assume. Anyone else have this thought, even if it was in passing?

[ItalianoVD]

Italiano is basically saying they have it figured out, yet don't want to "rush" the game. The point is to win and eliminate mafia, not drag things out for whatever reason. Am I missing something here?

Yes, but it’s also to cover all your bases and make sure you are 100% comfortable with moving forward. It’s not a blitz and I could be wrong so that’s why taking the allotted time is important.

Fair enough, but that is not at all how you presented it.

I didn’t think I needed to present it like that. What other interpretation do you get from let’s wait to actually eliminate until we use the entire time allotted.

[ItalianoVD]

As to your second part, I was just simply agreeing with Furtive that the back and forth between Take and Italiano early on could be a scum team. Rather far fetched, but possible.

Townpoints for thinking outside the box.

[ItalianoVD]

Well you all wanted some more thoughts from me. I’m placing BigTerp, TTTT, and Corn in my townpile. Although with Corn I gotta ask some more questions because I know he can play the way he is playing as scum. TTTT is more gut and tone based. BigTerp is more for thinking about possibilities and being open to actually say it.

[ItalianoVD]

He was literally saying shit like "it's only a game, nobody has to be mad" later in 2091. There's definitely something else going on, but the thing is I'm not sure what it is yet.

I do. He's scum.

[ItalianoVD]

I will say that I don't think what Terp put forwards in 282 is necessarily true.

In what way do you mean?

[ItalianoVD]

Sorry to see TTTT go. He was the one I felt understood me the most lol. Hope everything’s alright with him.

[ItalianoVD]

I think a functional townblock is me, Terp, Corn and TTTT's replacement. For day 1 at least

That’s the block I’ve been working with, which leaves Val, Aspho, Take, and Abd. I’m working with whom I think is the most likely Take partner.

[ItalianoVD]

For those of that have subscribed to the premise, thank you for misrepping the entire reason behind why my play changed.

My play changed because I have to keep my ego in check very often. As I had mentioned in my iso it is hard sometimes to do that and every now and then something stupid will pop out.

The comment I made in 86 was unneeded and one I hate personally. That’s why I walked it back in 180.

Had nothing to do with scum!me getting scared or whatever Abd tried to frame it as.

It was simple. I don’t like how I can be sometimes and I didn’t like that comment.

The other instance is that a comment I thought was directed at me 72 (since it seemed like it was a response to 69 and 71 was in fact not directed at me and I acknowledged it in 183 and 186 and again in 204. I said I’d remove it out of the list on things I scumread him for, for the interaction Take had with

me

, but not out of the list of interactions Take had with the playerlist, since that comment was directed at TTTT.

Nothing else has changed. I still believe Take is scum. I

did

use a reaction test with both him and Corn and I feel Take failed. I’m thinking Corn is probably town, however, what I can’t get out of my head is that if Corn is scum and somehow Take is town, scum!Corn agreed about Take’s change in behavior as a way to pocket me and agree with me to possibly miselim Take.

But to me, the change in Take’s attitude is of heavier weight than the possibility of scum!Corn and that’s what I’m going with.

[ItalianoVD]

I believe Abd or Aspho is probably scum. And if I was wrong about Take then I think that’s the partnership.

[ItalianoVD]

I have Take as a null read. Italiano is scummier. It's game strategy - sometimes you vote with a player who is hard pushing someone else.

Town +1

[ItalianoVD]

I believe Abd or Aspho is probably scum. And if I was wrong about Take then I think that’s the partnership.

Take abdbla to E-1 and lets see what happens.

I’m with you, but not today. We do Take today.

[ItalianoVD]

I guess I'll leave it to the other SEs to explain, or else try and explain in post-game, because if the demonstration isn't sufficient I don't think you will accept any explanation coming from me.

Unfortunately I’m in the same boat bud. The newbs don’t like the vets.

[ItalianoVD]

I believe Abd or Aspho is probably scum. And if I was wrong about Take then I think that’s the partnership.

Take abdbla to E-1 and lets see what happens.

I’m with you, but not today. We do Take today.

What are your thoughts on Val?

Since you have Take as your #1 scum read, how do you feel about Furtive who is right there with Take on Val lately?

I’m placing Val in my townbin for now. Everyone else except for the three I mentioned feel townie to me.

[ItalianoVD]

T02: In the nicest way possible, consider replacing out. Either that or change your attitude because it's making the game less fun.

Just to let you know, this is against the rules. You can’t ask/tell players to rep out of games.

[ItalianoVD]

My bad for not being here, I had to step away from the site for a while, I was frustrated and wasn’t in the right headspace. It had nothing to do with this game, to be clear. I’ll be back later, just wanted to drop in.

[ItalianoVD]

I did not mean to break the rules. Apologies

It’s all good, just don’t want you possibly getting in trouble.

[ItalianoVD]

Man looking back it's insane how scummy some of Italiano's early posts seem in retrospect. But they've 180'd to a much more reasoned, townie-esque demeanor to me. Trying to figure out if this is town abandoning a dumb scumhunting tactic or a very flagrant maf pivot.

When I said I had the game figured out, what’s funny is that where I’m at now is not too far from where I was earlier. Unless I’m townreading scum I believe the solve is within Abd, Take, Aspho. Even after reading nothing has changed for me.

[ItalianoVD]

Mala's "gross" comment seems really weird now when they say it "doesn't mean they are a scum read. i just didnt vibe with that post"

Why is it weird? The two aren’t mutually exclusive. It’s possible to agree with scum posting or disagree with town posting if you are town. It happens all the time. I feel like a few of you are

trying

to make me scum, but you don’t actually believe it. You’re still working on how I entered the game and the early posts, etc. But this is how I arrived at where I’m at and a few of you agree with where I’ve arrived now, so not getting the seemingly forced scumread.

And several of you keeps saying “I’m okay with these three eliminations” mainly you, furtive, and Corn. I think Take needs to be resolved and is the best option today because I actually believe he is scum. I’m not gonna just let the change in attitude as well as the difference in how he is moving in this game go. My point is, don’t put Take in your limpool if you aren’t actually gonna vote for him because for reasons he is a better elimination than myself.

[ItalianoVD]

I’ll respond to 477 later. I’m gonna be out all day in meetings so I’ll have to get to it when we break for lunch or at one of the breaks.

[ItalianoVD]

Okay I figured that would happen and that’s why I posted 479.

I find it impossible for anyone to say Take is playing exactly the way he played in 2091.

A few of you have mentioned it and how you’ve seen it to be true, you don’t pressure it though, you go after the person that did. Make it make sense to me.

Rather, I dislike the quoted part because it really just reads to me like attempting to set up a mislim after T02.

Wrong. I’m probably like 90% sure Take is scum and the way you have been positioning yourself around him makes me think you are his partner.

I am not setting up any miselim. We solve Take and then we move from there. I don’t care about Day 2 right now. I’m focusing on Day 1.

If you are town and you think I am wrongly accusing

you

of being scum, who is the probable partner of Take, you know since you do have him in your limpool.

[ItalianoVD]

Ahh, I didn’t want to claim but I guess it works out now.

I am the Town Tracker.

I know I have a guardian angel in the setup so don’t let Take kill me.

[ItalianoVD]

Ehh, it is what it is.

[ItalianoVD]

I don’t really like relying on prs as it kinda creates a crutch situation.

[ItalianoVD]

All meetings done so I’ll be around.

[ItalianoVD]

I really hope you're lying

Yeah this is town.

[ItalianoVD]

@Italiano

Any response to 496

Why is Abd doing this? When I asked you to elaborate on things you gave me one liners and sarcasm. Instead of you trying to see where I was coming from and trying to get an understanding of what I was saying, you were short and acted biased towards the “veteran”.

While that’s not technically alignment indicative, again according to what I have as your town game, it’s a drastic change for you. So to answer your question I don’t really feel anything towards the post. For me it does nothing for your slot or Abd’s.

Now about the “I should be able to keep my ego in check, etc.” argument. Ask any veteran player who has a lot of experience and a lot of success in this game and they will tell you that it is difficult at times to keep the ego in check. So I can tell you first hand that no, it’s not as easy as you are making it seem.

[ItalianoVD]

Italiano, do you think abdbla is scum?

It’s possible. But I’m thinking if Take is scum, there is a higher chance that the partner is not Abd. We’re entering major WIFOM territory here but I’m not entirely sure Abd!scum would go through such attempts to save their partner when it’s highly possible that they could potentially get the boot.

As I’ve said, personally I’d rather go for Take today as I think his responses have been coming from caught scum.

[ItalianoVD]

Aight, so I can compromise on Abd.

[ItalianoVD]

I'd also like to hear why an abdbla/T02 solve has been ruled out by Italiano and others. Abdbla has been playing soft defense for T02 all game and has not committed to anything more than a null read. T02 has also been null reading abd for most of the game, dropping their early vote on them and instead focusing elsewhere. Even now they only say they'd be willing to vote for them in the interest of self preservation. If you look back through their ISO's I think a T02/Abdbla solve isn't that unreasonable.

Just food for thought.

I haven’t ruled it out at all and it’s still rolling around in my head. As I said in my last post I’m willing to compromise on Abd.

[ItalianoVD]

I haven’t ruled it out at all and it’s still rolling around in my head. As I said in my last post I’m willing to compromise on Abd.

My concern was WIFOM and almost impossible to prove unless you get flips and if it’s more likely Abd flips, I don’t have an issue with it.

[ItalianoVD]

Alright, I probably took 538 a bit too literally, fair enough.

[ItalianoVD]

VOTE: take

gonna chill with my homie val

Well now both potential partners are at E-2 if I’m not mistaken.

[ItalianoVD]

Get someone to E-1 and I’ll hammer.

[ItalianoVD]

Intent to hammer.

Abd doesn’t have to claim but he did say he wanted to give final thoughts so I’ll wait for that.

[ItalianoVD]

Not much else to say that I haven’t said already. As long as I have my bulletproof vest on tonight I should be okay.

[ItalianoVD]

Abd doesn’t have to claim

Yes he does.

He can if he wants to but doesn’t have to. It’s courtesy in this game, but not a rule.

[ItalianoVD]

Aww man, I really thought you were scum Take. Apologies.

I targeted but got no result.

VOTE: Abdbla

For now vote until everyone checks in and we see what’s happening. I have some ideas to discuss and I was at least right on Corn.

Probably won’t be able to check in again until later.

[ItalianoVD]

A had a bit of a self-reflective moment overnight whereby I tallied up the number of times I've tunneled on someone D1, been so sure they would flip scum as to be almost ready to bet my house on it, and then find out I am wrong, and it's enough that I think I need to start factoring that in to how I play D1 in future. A big part of the problem is the only game I've lost I felt bothered by losing was one where, remembering what happened before, I did give up my D1 tunnel then it went unresolved, and I lost to scum!them in ELO. Figuring out how to improve on that score might be fodder for my very first post in mafia discussion after this game, perhaps.

My gosh I can so relate to this. I was plagued with overthinking and second guessing for years, which caused me to lose it for villages on many occasions. This kept happening until I decided to get better. Now if I have a target I generally will not stray from it, sometimes even with a claim and I have still found scum this way.

I genuinely felt that Take’s psychology had changed from game to game. There have been many theoretical studies going into the psychology of the game and alignment changes do effect people. I guess we can talk about it post game or in the mafia discussion forum.

While it feels terrible to tunnel a townie, personally I think it feels worse to let scum wiggle out of your grip to victory which has happened more times than I can count. Also to be fair a townie does get wagoned for a reason, especially if the wagon is majority town.

While it does suck, at the end of the day I’d much rather miselim a townie who looks scummy than let go of scum who looks townie. The numbers are in town’s favor.

[ItalianoVD]

I believe Abd or Aspho is probably scum. And if I was wrong about Take then I think that’s the partnership.

[ItalianoVD]

Why aren’t you voting for her if it’s incredibly scummy?

[ItalianoVD]

Hindsight is 20/20 and I would’ve been okay with either wagon on Day 1 as I mentioned, but yeah now knowing that Take was town, that hammer and prior E-1 vote was very head scratching for me once I read it and not something I feel happened organically.

Big Terp makes a great point about Aspho’s consciousness of the votes early on, but the lack of it when it mattered. I guess they didn’t want to hammer me for some reason or just wanted a claim, etc., especially given my scummy nature at the time (which would have been equal to Take at the time he was at E-1).

Yeah, I think we have to solve within these two slots.

[ItalianoVD]

Before at all going into the information presented, just know that it is completely without context. Anyways...

I think I should lead with the vote-chart, because to be honest, I can't get jack from it. Might be worthless, as far as information goes. Made by drawing an arrow once every time someone appears in a votecount voting for another person, with the arrow drawn from the votee to the voted.

Spoiler: vote-chart

There's some things that should be immediately obvious to people who have read the thread, but furtive hasn't actually voted anyone but me, I've practically only voted CPB since the start of the game, and Italiano, I and T02 as the centerpoints of scum attention, though with a fair bit of votes thrown Asph's way.

The interesting one, I think, is the wagon-chart. Made by drawing a line between each person who is voting for the same person each vote count, blue lines for the "not voting" wagon, and discounting the first votecount.

Spoiler: wagon-chart

Of interest here is how the network ends up forming. You might notice that there's a thin web of connections between everyone on the left side, but that's only because of the last vote count, where all the wagons were consolidated. Prior to that, TTTT had only ever voted on the same wagon as me (Corn) and Val only ever voted with Italiano (Both Asphodel and T02). As for TTTT/Malakittens, I'm fairly sure that the reason there is that they were inactive with their vote on Corn, similar to me. I'm not sure I can extend quite the same amount of grace to the two of them, and I already wasn't very keen on Val. This might be confirmation bias, so make of it what you will.

Why aren’t you voting for her if it’s incredibly scummy?

I'm having trouble seeing exactly what scum!Asph gets from this, and I wanted to do VCA first to see if anything useful shook out. The only way I see this working out for scum!Asph is if the scumpartner is incredibly confident in their ability to push to the endgame and win. It seems unlikely, considering they'd have to dodge the jailkeeper three(?) times. I've got a solve in mind that would make sense of it, but it's

very

farfetched.

First, we have to assume that we're actually in a goon x2 + jailkeeper game. Italiano, on the ropes and about to be lim'd, guesses at the tracker claim because it's a safeclaim 1/3rd of the time. It works. He claims to have been roleblocked to set up that it's actually tracker + jailkeeper game, with the eventual jailkeeper death strengthening that claim. Italiano coasts to victory on me being mislim'd while the jailkeeper doesn't want to target Italiano because he's the tracker.

It's the only way I can make sense of scum!Asph. Alternatively, if Terp has us played for fools, then they deserve to win, honestly. The claim that it's because we're a scumteam is insulting, particularly because of how stupid the move would be in that case.

So, fmpov I have a strong reason to believe we are definitely not in the goon x2 setup and I assume neither do you.
I gotta give you props, I wouldn’t expect you to just rollover and die, but that ‘farfetched’ scenario is aptly named. We always have to look at what’s more probable over what’s possible. If my protection dies then I’m immediately dead after, if we haven’t killed scum by that time. And imo I don’t particularly need to track as we have enough information to find the scum and win the game, so if I’m blocked it shouldn’t matter. It might even be in places we don’t expect.

[ItalianoVD]

Something about the game state is making me uneasy. Not even sure I can put it into words at the moment, but something feels off.

Anyone else feel that way or is it just me?

[ItalianoVD]

I think the problem I have with the gamestate is how seemingly 'easy' it is.

We were wrong about Take and I feel like scum jumped on it. Now I think we're being lead down a wrong path again. Maybe it is just that simple and it's Abd and Aspho or

someone else

, however we only have 2 miselims before we lose and if they are both town, well good game scum.

I don't have the time right now, but I need to rethink everything. Scum may have been in the forefront the entire time.

UNVOTE: Abdbla

[ItalianoVD]

Who is scum Aspho?

[ItalianoVD]

I have thoughts that I’ve been able to better form since the Day has progressed, but I’ll have to talk about them later.

[ItalianoVD]

Oh. Yeah, sorry, I thought it was obvious. I'm the other PR role in the game. I roleblocked/protected Italiano last night, since the way I saw it was that he was either the target, or would be roleblocked anyway, and both routes would reveal we're in a game with a Mafia Roleblocker

assuming

the tracker actually exists.

I didn't realize i had to explicitly state it -- Jailor here. I'd love to hear any CC's.

Yes I was blocked, but I knew it couldn’t have been scum because scum would just kill me, not roleblock me. I posted my night action first post Day 2 so I could hint at what setup we were in to give the townies some info. I’m inclined to believe Asphodelus.

[ItalianoVD]

JV is an uncc’d pr.

I'm not entirely sure how I feel about this one.

Just to be sure, you aren't an alt of JacksonVirgo are you, Italiano? That was Mala getting mixed up with a previous game?

JV is an uncc’d pr.

I'm not entirely sure how I feel about this one.

I'm not even sure who JV is??

Just to be sure, you aren't an alt of JacksonVirgo are you, Italiano? That was Mala getting mixed up with a previous game?

Nevermind my previous post. Looks like Mala got Italiano's alt mixed up?

Yeah definitely not Jackson. Not sure if that was a typo or what.

[ItalianoVD]

Here are my thoughts on the game as of this moment.

I can only 100% trust myself and Aspho, the rest of you, I’d like to townread (expect the scum of course) but in all actuality, any of you can be the scumteam. I’ve run every possible scumteam outside of myself and Aspho and all of them make sense to me.

Some transparency: Before the day ended on Day 1, as you all know I was willing to go for Take or Abd; was okay either way. To me, Aspho’s hammer wasn’t suspicious at all as a few of you have thought (and this was before she claimed) as I’ve seen that from town a ton. So you would think maybe a tracker should track her or maybe Abd, truth is I was going to track Abd and actually sent that in but then changed it to BigTerp. BigTerp was kind of setting off my antennas with how agreeable he was being and still is being with everyone. (I can case this later, but just getting my thoughts out now).

I was quite curious to know what exact setup we were in so as the tracker I knew if I died the other pr would have been a Friendly Neighbor, if I was able to track successfully, but not die, it’d be a Doctor, and I knew if I was blocked, but not killed that there was a Jailer because as I said scum aren’t gonna block me, they’ll just kill me.

I had to trust that if there was a protective role that they’d believe me, which I’m very happy they did.

[ItalianoVD]

While I think Abd is probably the best elimination for today, I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if he was town and scum was actually in the Val/Terp/Furtive pool. The issue I’m having is finding a great enough reason to go against popular opinion. Most of it is my crazy mind formulating all types of scenarios and whatnot. Eh

[ItalianoVD]

But to also think that maybe Abd is not scum is flowing heavily in my mind as well. This is why I’ve been saying I don’t really like the gamestate and where it is.

[ItalianoVD]

It's fine. Let's just make it happen. Ash if you're on, let's just go ahead hammer.

VOTE: Abdbla

I'm not all the way comfortable, but maybe my mind is getting the best of me.

[ItalianoVD]

Or anyone for that matter.

[ItalianoVD]

Yeah I think it is.

Worst case scenario is that you’re town, but if so it would have solidified my thoughts on who actually is.

[ItalianoVD]

Yeah I think it is.

Worst case scenario is that you’re town, but if so it would have solidified my thoughts on who actually is.

…on who the scum actually is.

[ItalianoVD]

Might wanna post it now, just in case.

True. I’ve been going back and forth with Val or Terp and Mala. I think that’s the scum team if Abd is town.

[ItalianoVD]

Great great game town! BigTerp definite MVP for using that logic when it counted. Val played a great scum game. Mala was also great in elo, also using logic instead of feelings. It’s something I have to get better at. Sorry for being part of the two miselims in the town. I see that it could have been prevented, but you never know when you’re uninformed.

To all those that were or are offended by how I played, etc. it is never my intention to make your time playing this game terrible. If you felt it was abrasive, arrogant, or condescending I truly apologize for that, especially you Take. On the flip side, had you been scum, and I backed off of you it would have sucked for town and for my ego lol. And yes my ego can be pretty big at times, which is why I always try to curb it.

You guys will get more comfortable the more games you play here and the more you’ll get to know players and you never know maybe one day you’ll be the veteran that the “newbies” hate.

[ItalianoVD]

@Aisa

This post explains everything 496
I still don't know why italiano acted the way he did but but I don't think I'm in the wrong for getting frustrated at him, most people would be in my place.

Also i'm not frustrated that I got "manipulated". I think the tactic that they used is reprehensible and it should never be allowed that's why I'm never playing with those two ever again.

We’ll all I can say is I’m sorry I treated you that way and I hope you reconsider about playing together in the future. I’m really a cool guy and genuinely just want people to have fun. Take care bro.

[ItalianoVD]

@Italiano

I want to know what was your thought process during day 1?

Of course.

I will admit the first part of Day 1 I really wasn’t all that into; real life and just getting back into the mindset of playing mafia had me sort of out of it, which is why I was

To be honest I needed something to kinda get the juices flowing. I didn’t just randomly target you if you thought that. As I said I had read the previous game you guys were in and on Day 1 in that game you seemed more game solvey and less emotional or snappy. To be fair the snappiness didn’t come until later, but even then I figured it was justified.

This game your first post was felt like an agitated post about TTTT’s avatar, which I had no problem with because it is in fact very ugly. But then your responses after that when dealing with TTTT were short, abrupt, and annoyed. I didn’t think the weak pressure he was giving you warranted those reactions, so coupled with what I read in the previous game you seemed different to me. I even pointed out the psychology of the mafia game because I believed it that much. I was probably short sighted given I didn’t actually play in that other game with you and the others.

Again, I wasn’t targeting you personally, I was playing the game and I genuinely thought I had caught scum. As I also mentioned in game, I have allowed scum to get off of pressure numerous times on Day 1 because I’ve overthought it or allowed scum/wolves to ate me to death. I’ll admit that ego is definitely in there because everyone wants to be the one that caught scum, but I would literally let them go and then pass them off as a villager and it came to bite the village/town in the butt later.

I realize my lockjaw is not only uncomfortable for scum but for town as well. Unfortunately I haven’t found an even medium where I’m not letting scum go, but also making actual town players feel comfortable. I’m willing to hear any suggestions and whatnot, but I haven’t found a way.

[ItalianoVD]

@Italiano

I want to know what was your thought process during day 1?

I will admit the first part of Day 1 I really wasn’t all that into; real life and just getting back into the mindset of playing mafia had me sort of out of it, which is why I was…

Sorry meant to say which is why I wasn’t that attentive and didn’t really know what was going and if I had missed anything or not. It’s why I asked someone to fill me in because I honestly didn’t feel like reading.

[ItalianoVD]

What a load of shit. You're saying this to spite me

Any response to what I posted?

[ItalianoVD]

I think the thing you misunderstood about me is that I don't just react depending on how strong the pressure i'm under is but also depending on how if the arguments used against me make sense or not.

Okay, that’s fair and it makes sense because I’m actually the same way. Apologies again, I should have realized that because I know how it feels to be on the other side.

If you thought I was mad at you I'm not. I was just dumfounded by the way you were playing when you revealed confirmed you weren't scum.

Yeah lol, if you think that was bad, wait until you get out of the newbie queue and into the normal one.

There are some characters out there that even I don’t particularly like playing with

[ItalianoVD]

I think we can all read between the lines of the posts made post-replacement to deduce what drove the decision for them - as town - to step away.

Fuck you for implying this. I'm not the reason he left and you know it. You're such a fucking lying snake holy shit.
I was right about you, you're the worst person I have ever played mafia with so I'll repeat what I said, fuck off.

do I get a say in why I replaced out?
It was largely because you were insufferable and sucking all the fun out of day1
And now you are making post game no fun
people are here apologizing to you (I don't know why) and you are doubling down on your toxicity
it's postgame
learn to deescalate FFS
can you add me to your list of people you don't ever want to play with again?

This is unfair. When someone has a gripe it’s not for us to just dismiss it, double down, and get our point across. We got acknowledge it and clear up the perception. We’re the experienced ones, we should be the ones making it right. As not only SE’s, but as members of this community we gotta be make the new players feel welcome. This isn’t game related at all, like y’all are attacking the player and that ain’t cool.

[ItalianoVD]

I get that TTTT didn’t want to play because of Take, but my point is not about taking sides, it’s about making the new players time here better so that they want to play and not leave. I understand players clash, but player retention should be more important than wining an argument.

[ItalianoVD]

*winning*