Newbie 2122: DRAGONS! | Game Over

[Merlyn]

Hi! I have one completed game on the site so far but I love reading them!

VOTE: SzmarzLeek bc that's not a vegetable I vibe with.

[Merlyn]

The point of pushing someone is sometimes to gain more information. I wouldn't say there's a threshold per se where it becomes correct to push but rather that this is contextual on game state. In the early game we have a low amount of information so we don't have much to go off of. As such, the threshold for what I'm willing to push in order to get more information and create reactions is much lower. On day 3 when we have a ton more information including alignment information in the form of flips my threshold is higher.

And the purpose of the pushing is to create more signal in the early game a lot of the time whereas in the late game its frequently because "I think you have a higher than random chance of flipping scum so I want to lim you."

I don't think there's a specific threshold you're looking for but rather you're looking for what you think is the best chance of flipping red and trying to weigh your reasons for thinking one person might be scum vs the others.

I find this really helpful, thank you.

And happy I don't know how to summarize 55 for you lol. Maybe 'learn to separate signal from sound'?

[Merlyn]

I'd say 85% Jolteon, 15% serious.

for the 15%, why black specifically out of the happy voters?

[Merlyn]

Hi! I have one completed game on the site so far but I love reading them!

VOTE: SzmarzLeek bc that's not a vegetable I vibe with.

Hope you participate instead of just reading. If everyone mostly read then it's a perfect scum world.

Weird shade but okay.

[Merlyn]

It's also ok to be unsure!

It's ok to have working hypotheses and come back to them and build on them and discard them.

For instance, something I think has a small chance of being signal but I'm nowhere near sure about is that you specifically asked me about town game stuff and not scum game stuff. Does that mean you're interested because you're town? Does that mean you are worried about asking about playing scum because you don't want someone to scum read you for it? Does that mean nothing at all and you just happened to be thinking about town games in particular?

I have no idea right now, but its a data point and could be signal.

This feels like a genuine thought about jz's alignment. I'm getting town vibes from this

Before I forget, I actually think is about Mint's alignment not jz's. And I agree, this is a positive point towards town for Shea- and also for Mint.

[Merlyn]

Be careful how your mind might already categorize Shea into "clean" because you might think "they're putting effort and they're extremly helpful! cant be scum!". Watch out.

I do understand your point on this, but I think it's okay for a newbie game. It's not like I'm personally thinking 'Shea conf town!' from it, but yeah a positive point.

[Merlyn]

BTW I love that we got the discussion going! Wondering what Merlyn thinks about this.

Why u so obsessed with me bro?

[Merlyn]

Before I forget, I actually think is about Mint's alignment not jz's. And I agree, this is a positive point towards town for Shea- and also for Mint.

Oh, you're right!

I'm curious what you are giving Mint town points for here

I think that Shea did a good little analysis there- it's a positive sign that Mint wanted advice on town actions.

[Merlyn]

Where do you see the obsession?

I was making a joke, it was funny to me you suddenly went, 'wonder what MERLYN thinks of this!'

[Merlyn]

Where do you see the obsession?

I was making a joke, it was funny to me you suddenly went, 'wonder what MERLYN thinks of this!'

so what could their motivation for doing so be?

Could be feeling salty about my RVS vote. I don't really understand the reasoning behind 145, I feel like I was already contributing to this game.

[Merlyn]

Gunna step away from the thread for a while, this always flips red though.

My called shot scum team is SL and Merlyn but that could be unfair because he could just be picking her at random.

But that sort of out of the blue referencing twice is extremely likely to come from a buddy.

ugh I should note that I am being hyperbolic here. Of course it does not always flip red. In a game where everyone has played a lot and knows me I wouldn't clarify this but here I want to be clear I am not saying that I have some super special tell that assures me that this player is going to flip red here, I am saying that I am reasonably confident the slot is mafia.

I'll tell SL to stop pointing me out in our scum PT

[Merlyn]

I'm feeling null about SL at this point. There are some inconsistencies here, Shea pointed out two of them with SL's take on happy and on saying theorycrafting is why they started pushing Shea and then spent like a whole page theorycrafting themselves. I also noticed that SL is accusing Shea of being scummy by focusing on one player, which actually made me laugh out loud a little when I read it bc that is one big old pot, kettle situation. But also when I read this

Like a lot of attention being paid to making sure they represent themselves in the best way possible, when that's not necessarily the same vibe as scumhunting. Running into the thread saying "I am here to be excellent and I am going to show you how excellent I am!" vs. "I am here to find scum!" ... It reads like someone putting a lot of pressure on themselves to be doing The Most but I'm not super convinced it's a planned effort. I'm leaning towards it being more a sign of inexperience (I know, I know, rich coming from someone who is also in their first game!)

I was instantly like, yup, that's exactly the vibe here. SL came in here wanting to be seen as a big expert and is not faring so well against those who have long experience here. That could be the dissonance here, SL wanting to be an expert when he's not. Some of his theories, like thinking scum will be all calculating and precise and shadowy, is what I thought when I was brand new here. Then I met folks like Deltabreedy and Andante lol

Mint, you seem pretty dubious of SL but I notice no vote yet. What's the thought process there?

Jz, what do you think about Shea?

[Merlyn]

Mint, you seem pretty dubious of SL but I notice no vote yet. What's the thought process there?

I'm not sure what I think of them yet. I feel there are a lot of things to question in what they're saying. Making a blanket statement that contradictions are indicative not of scum, but

town,

stands out as very noteworthy, and is worth discussing, but it also feels like it stands out too much. The kind of spontaneous thing that, as they say themselves, scum would probably not want to do if they're trying to stay under the radar.

On the other hand, I agree with Black and Shea that their posting feels a little phony. They've made multiple posts describing how contradictions and spontaneous play are town-indicative, and their posts seem like they're trying to emulate that approach as much as possible so they can use that as "proof" their posts are indicative of town. I'm not really sure which path seems more likely, and I do agree with them that getting discussions going to look back on is important... even if I don't really understand what they're hoping to find if contradictions are a good thing.

I have similar WIFOMy thoughts, I was hoping your opinion would help with that lol bc I'm seeing you as likely town.

[Merlyn]

When Merlyn prods other players for thoughts it's alright and nobody mentions it.

When I do it, it's supposedly an attempt to draw the attention away

I can take all the attention, folks, no worries.

What the hell lol. I'm starting to feel like your hated older sister. 'You let HER go to parties after 11 p.m., but when I ask you say no!'

[Merlyn]

like i'm pretty sure they have no votes on them

okay, checked the vc. she does in fact have no votes
merlyn, is your vote on leek serious or rvs? if it's rvs, i'd recommend removing it.

Why do you care about this? I'm definitely not the only one with an RVS vote out. I'll move it when I want to move it.

[Merlyn]

I'd look for scum here at this point:

MintChippo
Merlyn
Mewtaph
Black

but I might or not elaborate on these 3 (I already talked about Black) if I feel like it later

I kinda get merlyn, elaborate on mew and mint please
mew has one post I think and that was just a rvs on patch
mint looks like an inquisitve slot, always ready to learn from shea which I quite like, attitude is everything in this game

SL, so you were pushing Shea and you think might be town now, right? What changed your mind?

I agree with happy, you were obviously not feeling great about me, and you already mentioned a suspicion on black, so that's not surprising. The Mew one is probably the most surprising one to me.

[Merlyn]

I'm thinking if Shea would put so much effort into scum painting me if they knew I'm green.

Town, how would you react to Shea, if I flipped green? Would you consider their crusade against me scummy or just brush it off, pointing at my attitude?

If you were limmed D1 and flipped green? I would actually probably read Shea more town for that- Shea is certainly a good enough player to know how to convincingly bus a buddy without accidently getting them limmed D1.

[Merlyn]

like i'm pretty sure they have no votes on them

okay, checked the vc. she does in fact have no votes
merlyn, is your vote on leek serious or rvs? if it's rvs, i'd recommend removing it.

Why do you care about this? I'm definitely not the only one with an RVS vote out. I'll move it when I want to move it.

I asked you specifically because Leek seems to be a big wagon and by having a vote on your nullread, you're using your vote on literally nothing. It's kind of pointless.

Okay, I can get that. My vote was leftover from RVS but I'm actually fine with the pressure being applied to leek, it's helping me figure out what I think about them.

[Merlyn]

if someone lolhammers i'll be pretty mad about that

'
This made me laugh just bc it's paired with your sig

[Merlyn]

oh, whatever. VOTE: leek. that's e-1. if you want to hammer, announce intent to hammer.

VOTE: unvote

Bro it's like 24h into the game.

Shea, why unvote? I thought it was okay to go to E-1 bc if someone did come in and hammer without announcing, boom, we have our scum!

[Merlyn]

I'm thinking if Shea would put so much effort into scum painting me if they knew I'm green.

Town, how would you react to Shea, if I flipped green? Would you consider their crusade against me scummy or just brush it off, pointing at my attitude?

If you were limmed D1 and flipped green? I would actually probably read Shea more town for that- Shea is certainly a good enough player to know how to convincingly bus a buddy without accidently getting them limmed D1.

Okay, then I'm not tr Shea anymore, if they were to actually hard benefit from limming me.

But I'm on your scumlist, why would you change your opinion bc of me?

[Merlyn]

I see no benefit to having leek on e-1.

Are we trying to get them to claim? I'm not yet. There's way more that needs to happen today.

No, definitely not, but was there really any danger in that? It would be super scummy to hammer or even announce intent this early in the game. My thought process is that if scum have some experience, there was no danger of that; and if scum are new that's great for us that they fell into the mistake.

In terms of benefit, I was just thinking I'd like to see what leek does at e-1- his reaction could have pushed him firmly into one column or another for me.

[Merlyn]

@MOD- just a heads up that I'm on Limited Access for 5/7 through 5-9, work trip to Boston.

I'll be able to post, but maybe only at night.

[Merlyn]

I cannot, though, because I'm already on your wagon.

[Merlyn]

Do you have a term here to describe someone subtly joining the bandwagon started by someone else? That's how I feel about Black.

I don't know a term for this, but I'm still keeping this glossary open in a tab when I play and it's helped me tons:

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... y:Glossary

[Merlyn]

also Leek i kind of disagree? while it is concerning that mint hasn't been talking about many other people people and the main topic of contention in their posts is you, their posts show a level of thought and analysis that i like and feels like they're coming off as town.

I think it is fair for leek to push Mint, I find it interesting too that he's posted to much to/about Leek but didn't place a vote there.

I'm gonna UNVOTE: for now, I think leek is too easy of a target today and I sense scum may be just letting the fights happen and not interfering.

[Merlyn]

Lol jinx buy me a coke!

[Merlyn]

Lol jinx buy me a coke!

Care to join the mew wagon with me?

I think your point is valid. I'll wait and see how he responds first though

[Merlyn]

Hey fam, remember that reread I promised? Well that is going to get postponed due to a comedy of errors worth of life events today. Fun story time: I recently adopted two cats, named Alex Trebek and Betty White. (snip)

Before I can do anything useful I have to post that I now know that we would be friends irl, I love this so much. Glad made it through the trial run

[Merlyn]

I do notice the other players yes, but I don't understand why it's weird to be questioning the player that's posted the most questionable stuff so far. Other people find Leek's postings strange as well, to the point that he was taken to E-1, and we're less than 48 hours into the game. There's plenty of time to question other people, so why is it an issue to be asking things of the person who said they're happy to answer questions?

I'll back off since this seems scummy to people, but Leek invited people to direct questions at them, so I did. For what it's worth, I'm still not really sure they're scum, which is why I haven't placed a vote. Some of their thoughts and policies seem really weird, but they don't really seem chaotic either, so I feel like if a scum partner told them to stop debating the contradiction idea and standing out, they'd probably listen. Questioning someone over things doesn't automatically mean they're scum.

I don't think it's scummy at all to ask questions, I do it too! I have more issue with the fact that you asked so many questions and didn't seem to get anything from it. A lot of people (myself included) place votes even when they're not really sure someone is scum, just to see what reactions happen. Totally possible that this is just your gamestyle (to only place votes when you're sure) and thus NAI. Seeing you play more will help me to answer this about you.

[Merlyn]

A thought with nuance might be like "oh, maybe shea is bussing his buddy for credit and then found his way onto my wagon because he wants to let that wagon slowly die while seeming like he was still pushing leek so if either of them ever flip they get exactly the "x person is likely town" credit that you're apparently giving us.

So, uh....are you doing that?

[Merlyn]

Vibes. There's one behavior that has raised my eyebrows but I'm not convinced it's a scumtell. I'm keeping it close to my chest to see if it continues

It was when I jinxed you, wasn't it? Fine you don't have to buy me a coke.

The more I reflect on Patch the more I wonder about them. I've already discussed most of my reasoning, but their defense of their vote also rubs me the wrong way somewhat. They say they're conflicted about Leek, which seems true, but when they voted they seemed content to have Leek eliminated, and acknowledged the possibility of a quickhammer. Surely they'd want to use a bit more caution on a vote they're apparently conflicted about?

UNVOTE: Black
VOTE: patchwork

Let's hear some more from you. What are your reads? How do you feel about Leek right now? Anyone else seem like a good elimination?

This and 474 are a compelling case to me, and I don't like Patch's response here:

how r you even reading my post this way
i can't tell if you're being disingenuous or if i'm being bad at communication again

I don't get the incredulity, Mint made a reasonable case here. I don't like that you took the request for a read and put it off again. I'll second the request.
VOTE: Patchwork

[Merlyn]

For Shea and Black- I have a question for you both before I can figure this out. What is the explanation for the difference in vibes between your early posts and now? You were both very happy and cute seeming with each other- what happened?

[Merlyn]

merlyn why are you completely ignoring the substance of me and black?

I'm not, I've split the posts.

P-edit this is getting silly now lol

[Merlyn]

I have been fooled by in game fights before, but I'm thinking Shea and Black is probably TvT or SvT. I have been wondering if they're scum bussing each other because of the tonal shift in responses. I ultimately don't think so. I'm sure both of them are capable of putting on a good show if they are scumpair, but there's stuff in this fight, particularly Black's responses, that seem like she's really upset. Post 520, that being fake? That would be amazing.

Shea, I take issue with a couple of points in your black argument. I've read 3 Black completed games, two she was scum and one she was town. She was cool as a cucumber both times she was scum, didn't really take offense to people being aggressive towards her. I only saw her lose her cool in a game she was town- she got pretty annoyed that people weren't listening to her (I can find the links tomorrow if anyone likes). So I wouldn't have thought this was against her meta. The other thing is I feel like Black made a good point with Mew, and it was kind of a small point to have all of this blown up from it. I think you might be town regardless because you've mentioned a couple of times you were concerned Black was pocketing you, and I kind of thought the same early in the game, but if this is SvT I would sus you before Black.

Black I really only have one thing that that pinged me about you and it's that you didn't vote Shea after 520. I agree that he might have said you were OMGUSing, but you built a whole case, it would be a weak point if he did. That's where I'm struggling, I can't tell what you think Shea's alignment is and after 520 I don't know how you wouldn't think he was scum and vote him.

[Merlyn]

oh

[Merlyn]

Actually I'm here while I stuff my face with McDonald's so I can respond now

Black I really only have one thing that that pinged me about you and it's that you didn't vote Shea after 520.

I agree that he might have said you were OMGUSing

,

but you built a whole case

, it would be a weak point if he did. That's where I'm struggling,

I can't tell what you think Shea's alignment is and after 520 I don't know how you wouldn't think he was scum and vote him

.

The omgus'ing we were referring to was earlier when Shea accused me of not voting for him, around 392. I actually don't think it would be very OMGUS to vote him here and now, but I explained at the end of my post that I'm still trying to sort all of this from Shea. I think this could come from town or scum Shea

Are you really interpreting that post as a case for scum!Shea? It's just me responding to his case about scum!me, so I'm not sure what you're saying here

I think you should read 520 again. I don't think you are understanding the point of it

I went back and read 520- I have to concede that you're not really building a case against Shea here. It left me with the impression that you should be voting him because I was thinking, can Shea be wrong literally six ways and not be doing it deliberately? But that's probably something that I should be considering, too.

[Merlyn]

maybe it's NAI, but they refused to remove their RVS vote (even after i said it did nothing)

I already told you why I kept my vote, and you seemed fine with it before?

Okay, I can get that. My vote was leftover from RVS but I'm actually fine with the pressure being applied to leek, it's helping me figure out what I think about them.

oh i assumed you were just refusing to move your random vote

just sort of There, posting takes once in a while, but not really doing much, not much of a prescense.

I mean, I am on V/LA. I actually think I'm doing pretty good keeping up.

and the "patch hasn't gotten back yet", almost as if i sit in front of a device all day, lurking

Who are you quoting? Because I never said that. I said you didn't answer Mint's question for a read- you weren't lurking for sure because you responded to other parts of the same post. It seems like a possible dodge.

[Merlyn]

My reads:

MintChippo
Black
SzmarzLeek
Aureal
jzhenson
Mewtaph
iamveryhappy
patchwork

SzmarzLeek actually made some really good posts today. He also made some really bossy ones, but who says only scum can be bossy? Ultimately I think town is likelier to take the chances that he takes than scum is.
JZ has moved down the list for me a bit- I still like their posts, but it makes me nervous when people keep promising they'll post and don't deliver. I totally respect busy days! But eventually you've gotta play the game, you know?
The thing about Mew that makes me hesistate to sus him more is that we've played a game together before where he was town and he wasn't a person that made long posts. He did consistently show up though.

Happy, I have a question for you that I can ask now that the game ended: when we played together in Poetry you played differently than this. Why the change?

[Merlyn]

merlyn ur wild

[Merlyn]

Because you're troll scum?

VOTE: iamveryhappy

Lmao no
I am already a better townie than in 2120

You are a better player for sure in that you are actually playing the game this time.

I read through the whole daykill bit (which I have to admit I got a good laugh about, so I hope it didn't actually cause you distress Happy, I don't see any malice in Black or Aureal, just a funny joke), and it's made me lean town on happy more. I think Scum!Happy would ask in the scum PT about the daykill before asking in thead if he had the option. I think. I'm never really sure how happy's mind works.

kinda, but now I'm more concerned of you and black being a scumteam and staging this whole thing
the counterargument is that you wouldn't do that as scum

The counterargument is that it would have been a terrible gambit for them bc they'd have to bet that you have never read the the newbie setup.

Patch, you coming in here only to talk about Apollo Justice and saying you'll get around to explaining your case on me in 1-5 days makes me feel good about where my vote is.

[Merlyn]

Hey, I love Phoenix Wright! I've played all the games on emulator. But surely you can see why this feels like lurking.

[Merlyn]

I generally like the vibe of this Mew post. It's the first substantial post from you that I can use to help figure you out. We also share a lot of the same thoughts.

I can indirectly respond to one of the most consistent reasons for people reading me as scum such as my activity level by posting more but this already happened starting 48 hours into the game and hasn't stopped since.

Are you suspecting scum activity in the calls for you to be more active? If so, who stands out?

I do want to point out that it's not important to me if you become spammy or not (I'm not sure I agree with you that being spammy is a towntell)

I would like to know your thoughts on your own meta.

Talking about my own thoughts is WIFOM territory but here you go. I feel that I have less time to contribute to the game as much as I would like to and there is a lot more variable in my ability to contribute to the game than I have had in a majority of my games a few years ago. My earliest town games are spammy to the point of being almost counterproductive. I don't think I've hit a balance here. As scum I feel like I tend to work with my partner and try to end-game with the mafia team intact.

If I had the choice, I would play with more activity as either alignment.

I have sympathy for this, but I want to say that I don't need a player to be spammy to be town to me, I just need to have more regular posts with some attempts at solving to help me figure you (or anyone) out. You can't solve with no content, just a fact.

[Merlyn]

please, don't be so naive to believe in iavh's fake fake meltdown

I'm not going to think he's more town in regards to it, just don't want a player to actually have a bad time playing a game.

[Merlyn]

No it hasn't. I could easily see happy believe the whole daykill thing was was real as scum or town. I have wondered why if he's scum his partner didn't tell him to just state he was town, but from the look of the time sigs on the posts there may not have been time to communicate.

[Merlyn]

You're still fixated on him a bit too, happy. Is there anyone else in the game that's pinging you as scummy and why?

[Merlyn]

not getting into nitpicking read walls to point out things like Merlyn saying she felt happy was townier for the reaction and then a page later saying her read hadn't changed.

Lol oh so you won't point that out? Okay, then I won't point out that that when I said my read hadn't changed I meant exactly that- your gambit with him did not make him seem any townier or scummier than I read him one page earlier.

[Merlyn]

I asked this yesterday but didn't get an answer, assuming you can't get a Happy elimination going, who would you be willing to go for as an alternative? Only Mew? We've got 3 days left now and I don't think you're convincing many people to switch to Happy, so I think you should tell us what other options you're willing to consider.

I saw you post about this yesterday and I didn't really understand it then. Why are you so confident happy won't be limmed? He's the second wagon rn.

[Merlyn]

Are you suspecting scum activity in the calls for you to be more active? If so, who stands out?

jz for sure.

I don't know what to do with responses like this

[Merlyn]

I can't say I really understand the purpose, in this context. It's one thing to fake confusion over accusations made against you, but you and Aureal were joking around about an instant-kill mechanic that doesn't exist, and everyone besides (presumably) Happy knew you were joking. If Happy did know you were joking, then what's the point of faking confusion there? It would be a weird thing to fixate on, especially when the messages weren't accompanied by votes.

the AtE wouldn't be the confusion, it would be when he said he got upset irl about it.

[Merlyn]

Okay, a response to what I think are the important points of Patch's 998:
- 'Merlyn + Leek'- what he said never made sense, bc I was actively posting when he said it. It's not opinion that I wasn't lurking, it's fact- you can check the timestamps of the post and see. In fact, the reason it drew suspicion to me in the first place wasn't bc folks were like, good call Leek she's lurking, it was bc it was so odd that he did it.
- 'Asking Questions'- I ask questions when I see a) a potential discrepancy or b) I think that clarifying a point may either prove someone town or trip up scum down the road. Because it's a long term building of a read, I often don't respond to people's answers esp on D1. I do respond to all questions to me though.
- 'Fluffposts'- Homie how dare you. People who live in Apollo Justice houses can't throw stones.
-'Uncategorizable'- 321 was when Leek dared me to get on his wagon for questioning him, but I was already still voting him with my RVS vote when he said that.

So we ever gonna talk about how these posts contradict each other? “I thought it was interesting and it’s okay for Leek to push them” -> “I don’t think it’s scummy” ? Homie you kinda fucked up big-time here

??? This doesn't even make sense to me. I'll state both things right now. I said "I think it's okay to push" and "I don't think asking questions is scummy." Mint was misunderstanding what I found concerning about his posts (which again, were not that he was asking so many questions but that I didn't see him backing up that concern with a vote. He says that's his playstyle, and I'm fine with that answer especially since I'll get to see if it's true in action later).

Absolutely everything you put in your posts saying it was a push on you is flat out not true. You quoted 3 posts, and 2 of them are not about you at all. The 3rd is my readslist.

I'm now grappling with what I think about this post as a whole. I don't agree with Leek that scum can't put this kind of post together, I've seen from experience they can. I'm just wondering what the strategic point would be as scum.

[Merlyn]

There are towny meltdowns, that's true. But they're rare and more likely to come from a townie, who put a lot of heart into the game, and they're still getting suspicions. Or frustrated because they're limming townies unintentionally.

You say so much stuff so authoritatively, but some of what you say runs counter to my experience here. Almost all real meltdowns I've seen are from town. A lot of folks who are scum and stressed seem to just dip. I mean, I'm new too- I'd love to hear an SE give their thoughts here.

Leek, is your post 1013 the main reason you're so gung ho about patch being town, or is there more to it?

[Merlyn]

I'm just wondering what the strategic point would be as scum

If patch is scum, they need to push something here. They dropped a scumread on you awhile ago and have been alluding to an ISO case on you ever since. I think this would just be that promise coming to fruition

Yeah, they did promise a case. But wouldn't a smarter push right now be a competing wagon?

[Merlyn]

It's the main reason. What do you think about it?

It doesn't seem like a strong enough reason to feel so passionate about it.

[Merlyn]

Honestly, 436 rubbed me the wrong way too. Merlyn previously asked me in 256 why I questioned Leek without voting, and I answered in 261. Merlyn even replied to that in 290 saying they felt similarly, but then in 436 they’re apparently confused about it again.

Mint, I was never confused, I found it concerning that you continued your questioning but still hadn't gotten anything from it. I was wondering if you were asking questions to seem productive without actually producing a read. In my response to Patch I address why I'm currently okay with your answers.

[Merlyn]

Uh... Merlyn, you just explained for yourself in 1027 why questions may not seem productive right away. I read that and thought "hey cool, she gets how this works, unlike some people." But you worry that Mint's questions are useless?

I flat out say that I don't find questions scummy. I say in the same post I ask them too! I personally have never asked as many questions in a row towards the same person that Mint did without finding them scummy. If I keep asking questions, it's because I think I've caught you. But yeah, I can see it just being different playstyles.

[Merlyn]

@Happy & Leek, both of you give me 1 or 2 lines on what the craic is between you both?

It's getting towards nighttime for me atm, so would be good to have abridged things to skim through so that I can get caught up and some discussion in nice and quick before we have only 24 hours left.

@Mew, Mint, Merlyn, Black - same for you with the Patch wagon. 1-liner on why cheers
[/quote

Patch was posting a lot but the quality was low- I pressure voted him and the way he's reacted to it doesn't look town to me

[Merlyn]

Fixed bad quote!

@Happy & Leek, both of you give me 1 or 2 lines on what the craic is between you both?

It's getting towards nighttime for me atm, so would be good to have abridged things to skim through so that I can get caught up and some discussion in nice and quick before we have only 24 hours left.

@Mew, Mint, Merlyn, Black - same for you with the Patch wagon. 1-liner on why cheers

Patch was posting a lot but the quality was low- I pressure voted him and the way he's reacted to it doesn't look town to me

[Merlyn]

Sorry about the pronouns. Shouldn't have happened. Keep correcting me on those.

Is this about using 'they' for happy? Typically viewed as nongendered and acceptable for all

[Merlyn]

Oh I'm sorry, I get it now

[Merlyn]

pedit: first, my pronouns are they/them. get it right. that was not a pressure vote, merlyn. you literally VOTED ME because you thought mint's case was "sound" and i have been your strongest scumread for a long while.

Absolutely, and I'm so sorry! not cool at all.

You and and I must have different ideas of what a pressure vote is.

[Merlyn]

I see. I don't think you ever replied to my 444, what do you think about it?

Looks like 444 is a post by Black, is it something different Mint?

[Merlyn]

Got it! 440 is a good example of one of those posts I tucked away to potentially examine in a future. This is another place I expected you to be forming a read bc you put so much effort into analyzing, but you end up with 'it could go either way'. I currently townread you, but I have noticed that everyone currently townreads you. I want to learn from my mistakes and not end up never questioning my townreads again.

[Merlyn]

These are basically the same questions I had for happy that happy just spins around laughing and ignoring when I ask. That is also a part of why I scumread him- it seems like his major solving efforts have all been directed at Leek and my slot. Leek was an easy push for a while with all the heat he got right off the bat and I don't think happy really knows how to pivot off of that when it died out, because his attempts to scumread my slot because "Shea ignored me" makes no sense. When he said that, I went back and looked and saw that Shea actually tried to interact with happy early on, and happy responded to his question with a shitpost. So I brought that interaction back up, thinking Shea actually had good instinct to poke at the Mew/happy interaction there. And was once again blown off constantly.

I actually think happy has good progression for his leek read, in between all the 'happy' style posting. Maybe not so much on you

[Merlyn]

I currently townread you, but I have noticed that everyone currently townreads you. I want to learn from my mistakes and not end up never questioning my townreads again.

That's a good policy, but does this mean that you feel what I did

is

scummy after all?

'What you did', meaning put so much effort into analysis and not come down on one side or another? I'm currently fine with your explanation.

[Merlyn]

whether you're saying that my examinations and questions might be worth questioning later on.

Yup, that's what I'm saying

[Merlyn]

why are basically all the people on my wagon on it out of opportunism
leek scumreads me the moment he realizes defending me is unsustainable, merlyn hops on to put me at e-2 for no valid reason and because i'm easy, mew does it because i'm literally just limbait
and then there's mint, the only one who has bothered to write a case

It's very obvious you're not faking being upset, and I hope you feel better and enjoy the game again.

I don't want to set you off here, but there have been several easier wagons than you if I was just looking to hop aboard anything. I shared my reasons really briefly with delta, but here you go: you said after the fact that your vote on leek was a pressure vote, but that didn't ring true to me. Your argument for why you did it when Mint pressed you in 493, 494, and 495 seemed outright disingenuous. I voted you to pressure you myself at that point, and I think you failed the pressure test. You've been in full death tunnel mode on me ever since, and have said a lot of conflicting things about me (example you have accused me of being scummy for somehow both being and the background and being a prominent player). It feels like panic.

I've got whiplash from Leek and his changes there. How we went from 'I will not ALLOW patch to be limmed' to 'intend to hammer' is a trip lol. When I read Blacks post saying she was confused where delta had got the idea that leek said he SR patch, I was confused too bc I was like, I asked him about it and he said he TR, when did that change? I think I've tracked down the weirdness here:

At 1013, it's a townread, that's confirmed by Leek at 1030:

Leek, is your post 1013 the main reason you're so gung ho about patch being town, or is there more to it?

It's the main reason. What do you think about it?

But at 1041 when Black asked flat-out about it, Leek says he scumreads them:

I thought I'm quite transparent with reasons why I don't want to lim patch.

Do you townread patch?

Nope. Having my doubts. But more doubts regarding Happy and Mew. Especially Happy now, looking at his recent activity.

Leek, what is this?

[Merlyn]

Yikes.

Can we all maybe just move past this and vote Mew? I'm really confused how nobody really seems to think this is a good slot but somehow nobody is voting there anymore?

I'd prefer to keep my vote on Merlyn, but I can switch my vote to Mew if it means we eliminate Merlyn tomorrow. Yes, I know, chaining lims is bad, but at this point I'm willing to compromise on anything if it means people will listen to me and what I say instead of waving me away.

This is a good example of what I mean- like, what is this? You're not even saying 'if Mew flips red' or 'if Mew flips green', it's no matter what we learn from Mew lim Merlyn.

[Merlyn]

Merlyn, in regard to 1299 I think the weirdness with Leek's patch read comes later. Not townreading patch isn't the same as scumreading then. It seems his opinion did change for the negative quickly, but later on, right when he started interacting with Delta on page 44. I'm not sure what would've changed it so quickly, because about all that happened was Black basically just talking about possible associatives with me on the previous page. Towards the bottom patch did start posting but I don't see how the first few posts are enough to instantly make Leek go "oh NVM patch's posts are now useless, not worth keeping them around for". There was just a couple of minutes between posts, not really time to reassess.

You're definitely right that it gets even weirder later on, but let's be clear- I asked if the reasons leek gave in a post were the reasons he was townreading them. He didn't say, I'm not townreading them or they're null to me, he said, yes,

those are the reasons I townread patch

. And then Black asked a few posts later if he scumread Patch, and he said

yes, I do scumread patch.

There's not a lot of wiggle room there.

[Merlyn]

If my unofficial vote count is right, we are frighteningly split. I don't think the votes are there for patch right now. Aureal, Black, can I ask your preference for Mew over Leek? Mew is basically a null presence in this game.

[Merlyn]

You're definitely right that it gets even weirder later on, but let's be clear- I asked if the reasons leek gave in a post were the reasons he was townreading them. He didn't say, I'm not townreading them or they're null to me, he said, yes,

those are the reasons I townread patch

. And then Black asked a few posts later if he scumread Patch, and he said

yes, I do scumread patch.

There's not a lot of wiggle room there.

Where? I'm not seeing Leek refer to it as a scumread until after Delta did.

If my unofficial vote count is right, we are frighteningly split. I don't think the votes are there for patch right now. Aureal, Black, can I ask your preference for Mew over Leek? Mew is basically a null presence in this game.

This feels very hair-splitty to me. When someone point blank asks if you townread someone, and you say 'nope', that means you think they're scummy- there's only two alignments in this game. It's especially weird when just posts ago you said you did tr them. You can't tell me you think Leek was saying...what, that they'd become null in a few posts?

I don't understand what you're asking for here.

I'm asking why you prefer a Mew lim to Leek.

[Merlyn]

Posting on your cell in this game is the pits.

Where? I'm not seeing Leek refer to it as a scumread until after Delta did.

This feels very hair-splitty to me. When someone point blank asks if you townread someone, and you say 'nope', that means you think they're scummy- there's only two alignments in this game. It's especially weird when just posts ago you said you did tr them. You can't tell me you think Leek was saying...what, that they'd become null in a few posts?

I don't understand what you're asking for here.

I'm asking why you prefer a Mew lim to Leek.

[Merlyn]

no, i think that too. the tracker claim is really weird and i have no idea if it's usual happy or scum happy- i don't think they have the guts to openly gambit like that

I don't think happy was claiming, or am I misunderstanding him? He said hypoclaim, so he's wanting us all to do it. I think. @Happy, can you clarify?

[Merlyn]

no, i think that too. the tracker claim is really weird and i have no idea if it's usual happy or scum happy- i don't think they have the guts to openly gambit like that

I don't think happy was claiming, or am I misunderstanding him? He said hypoclaim, so he's wanting us all to do it. I think. @Happy, can you clarify?

i have no idea what "hypoclaim" means, i just assumed he was claiming

it's a strategy we attempted to use in my previous game: (QUOTE FROM GAME 2120)

In post 1252, usesPython wrote:
In post 1251, Doctor Drew wrote:
Is hypoclaiming saying who you targeted at night?
Yeah pretty much just going:
If I am Jailkeeper I targeted X n1 (and will target Y n2)
If I am Friendly Neighbor I targeted X n1 (and will target Y n2)
We can drop the N2 thing for JK if you want but we should definitely be forcing FN claims to commit to visits before we announce intent on anyone so that scum can't just claim FN and say they visited dead people/their buddy/the person that gets limmed today

The idea being if someone is nk'd with a PR, we will know who they took night action with/against by going back and looking at the hypoclaim.

[Merlyn]

no, i think that too. the tracker claim is really weird and i have no idea if it's usual happy or scum happy- i don't think they have the guts to openly gambit like that

I don't think happy was claiming, or am I misunderstanding him? He said hypoclaim, so he's wanting us all to do it. I think. @Happy, can you clarify?

hypo is over, you guys dont really knoaw how to do it :/

Yeah, it was definitely all of us and nothing to do with the way you explained it

[Merlyn]

What were Black's most recent reads?

Patch and you for scum. Do you think she was killed for those reads?

[Merlyn]

"sorry I guess" good one, doesn't really justify anything, leek should have said it was e-1 smh. reading problems guys?

Are you saying your find Delta and/or Leek scummy for the hammer and not saying e-1? I know you find leek scummy, I'm asking was this specifically scummy or are you just throwing shade at them?

[Merlyn]

Leek called this post out as scummy or trolling, but didn't specify why. Happy returned a few hours later, however, and immediately corrected himself on this:
In post 1338, iamveryhappy wrote:
oh yeah
my bad
we are confirmed to b in the b column
didn't see friendly neighbour can be paired with jailkepper
I'm blind
wdyn scum lol
This seemed a bit strange to me, because Leek never specified what about Happy's post was scummy, but Happy knew immediately. Additionally, there was a gap of a few hours between Leek's posts and Happy's reply, which would be more than enough time for a partner to jump in and point out the mistake in the scum PT.

But why might Happy make the mistake of being confident that a Tracker is in play? Well, regardless of our setup, we know that Mafia has a Rolecop, which allows them to determine people's roles. Could it be that Happy is that Mafia Rolecop, investigated somebody, and found the Tracker on N1? This could also explain why they were quick to suggest a hypoclaim as soon as Day 2 began - if it had worked, when the Tracker made their hypothetical claim, scum would know whether the Tracker was onto them or not, and could plan accordingly. Happy's response when I questioned their hypoclaim feels very strange as well, almost like backpedaling.

I've grown really wary of thinking someone actually scumslips, but you know what? This is an interesting theory to me. VOTE: IAmVeryHappy

[Merlyn]

Mmmm, nah. If scum managed to rolecop a tracker N1, it'd be pretty dumb to do this. They just shoot the tracker N2. They would not want the tracker to out any results first. Even results that we'd not figure out were actual results until the next day. If it's a scum ploy, it's trying to figure out who could be the other PR, not because they already found the other one.

I thought that Mint was arguing that it was a slip, not a gambit (which yeah, would be a crappy plan).

[Merlyn]

MintChippo- I’m back on board with Mint for town. Post 1427 is the last thing scum would post, they’d just let us keep arguing in circles. Plus Mint is incredibly consistent with the progression of his reads.

Deltabreedy- I felt good about this slot back when it was jzhenson, and delta hasn’t done anything to make me think otherwise. The entire case on him is basically that he hammered when he didn’t think he was, and I get the sense that real scum is happy to use this distraction.

Aureal- null leaning town. Going through ISO I realize that we haven’t agreed on much, but I’m looking at the posts themselves and I like that they don’t take anyone’s towniness for granted. Another person who’s also consistent in reads.

Patchwork, SzmarzLeek, iamveryhappy (what order??) So, I have three scumreads, which is one too many, plus none of them are especially strong. I went back and read Patches whole ISO, and there’s not much there that screams town to me…but it’s hard to call out a specific scum behavior. I don’t agree that Patch and Aureal talking to each other is scummy, I think Black was feeling some residual concerns from the Shea slot and I didn’t share those. Leek and Happy…I don’t know what to do with these chaos types of players, I still haven’t figured that out. I could see Leek being coached to chill a bit by a more experienced player (so Patch would fit and happy wouldn’t). I agree with most of Delta’s case on happy, the attempt at hypoclaim is so clumsy, and the thing I really can’t shake is that town!happy did not play like this in my last game with him. But he could also just be learning, limming him last game was such a mistake, I don’t want to make the same mistakes.

[Merlyn]

merlyn x delta could be likely here?

Out of interest - can you fully articulate why you suspect myself and Merlyn now, when yesterday you were super-duper convinced it's leek?

Cause you've softed, you've asked for a massclaim as part of what I can only imagine at this point is searching for a PR and now you're suspecting two people who are simply voting you with what seems to be very little justification.

So I'm curious what generated these reads.

1446.
merlyn says your vote/hammer was accidental and I was the one who was "using it as a distraction" smh
makes you two look aligned.

What in the flat earth?? 1446 is my readslist, and I said scum was using the hammer argument as a distraction.

Deltabreedy- I felt good about this slot back when it was jzhenson, and delta hasn’t done anything to make me think otherwise. The entire case on him is basically that he hammered when he didn’t think he was, and I get the sense that real scum is happy to use this distraction.

[Merlyn]

"Back on board", meaning there was a time where you didn't think I was town?

You've slid towards null for me at times.

In post 1446, Merlyn wrote:
Deltabreedy- I felt good about this slot back when it was jzhenson, and delta hasn’t done anything to make me think otherwise. The entire case on him is basically that he hammered when he didn’t think he was, and I get the sense that real scum is happy to use this distraction.

Aureal- null leaning town. Going through ISO I realize that we haven’t agreed on much, but I’m looking at the posts themselves and I like that they don’t take anyone’s towniness for granted. Another person who’s also consistent in reads.
Why are you reading Aureal positively? She's the one making the claims against Delta that you said real scum would be happy to use.

I said scum is using the distraction, as in, the distraction that Aureal and Delta fighting has created.

[Merlyn]

Otherwise, they've been very lurky on Day 2, essentially only asking or answering questions, and they're almost due for a prod because of their low presence

Calling me a lurker irritates me. I have only not posted one day- Sunday. I was at a wedding. Prod time is extended on weekends. By your own admission, I've asked questions, answered them, and put out a readslist. How the hell is that lurking??

[Merlyn]

1456 is a Mint post, happy.

[Merlyn]

Interesting. Care to expand? I don't believe you've ever mentioned this, and the most recent posts before you said you were "back on board" were you agreeing with a theory of mine to the point of voting for Happy. How about a full read list?

I absolutely have mentioned this, and we have already went a couple of rounds on it. Here's something new- I also took note of the fact that you weren't last nights kill, despite an almost overwhelming consensus of being town. But your posts today would make you a terrible wolf.

The rules of this particular game don't seem to indicate that prod time is extended over the weekend, but either way, you'd only made 8 posts across the entirety of Day 2 when I said that. In the past 30 minutes, you've increased your post count today by 33%. It's not hard to see why I'd consider that a lacking presence.

I did not notice there was no extended time for weekends! But if you want to start pulling statistics, here's one for you: I've posted 100% of all days in this game. A lacking presence? I thumb my nose at you sir!

[Merlyn]

This is my way of saying 'leek is red and I know it'

So you didn't think that this might cast doubt on your tracker claim if you had to make one?

I don't know what to do about this. If I unvote him and he's false claiming, I won't be able to live through it. It will actually kill me.

[Merlyn]

refusal to get off an uncc'd tracker is scum btw

Not everyone has even checked in btw

[Merlyn]

Would you mind directing me to the posts where you said you were reading me as null? There are a small handful of posts in your ISO where you questioned me on things, like in 436, but these are usually followed by you strongly agreeing with something I've said, like in 527

[post # corrected by me from Mints next post!]

. You even said in 819 that I was your strongest town read. Since then, we had a exchange around 1119 where you said you were satisfied with my answers.

You said in 1123 that you didn't want to have town reads you never question, but still town read me at that point. And then on Day 2 my theory is once again convincing enough for you to vote. There's a difference between having null reads and having town reads you want to question later on, and it doesn't seem like there's any indication that you ever null read me, let alone that you null read me between 1123/1414 and 1446. Please direct me to them.

Yeah, the situation in 436 (and alll the posts surrounding it) is exactly what I'm referring to. On the Scum-O-Meter, you dipped from town to null there for a bit. But 527 is literally almost a hundred posts later, and by then I felt better about you. 1123 is the part where we went through this already, and I'm sorry but I don't know how to be more clear:

I currently townread you, but I have noticed that everyone currently townreads you. I want to learn from my mistakes and not end up never questioning my townreads again

You dipped toward null near 436, moved back toward town, we had the exact same discussion about this very thing around 1123. Night happened, you dipped toward null again. If I tell everyone in the game this, that includes you, and it allows you to adjust your behavior knowing I'm watching. I let the game know when I felt confident again you were town.

I hope I'm not actually irritating you very much, I think you're a lot of fun! I just think there's a very noticeable difference in your play today compared to Day 1 and even the previous game we played in.

I really enjoy playing with you too Mint! I just bristle at being called a lurker when I have put this much effort into the game.

[Merlyn]

Mint, I'm not counterclaiming, lol. Neither are you or Merlyn. Dunno about patch yet, they're acting like they might not have read this yet.

refusal to get off an uncc'd tracker is scum btw

Not everyone has even checked in btw

This is true and I'm not fussed about you unvoting yet because he's not E-1, but if he was you really should unvote so a scum can't just pop up and hammer.

Yeah, I agree, but...he's not, so...I mean, if someone shows up and votes him without a cc I'll unvote.

[Merlyn]

UNVOTE:

That's tough Patch, make sure to take care of yourself.

I am fine with a patch lim or a leek lim, I believe that at least one is scum.

[Merlyn]

UNVOTE:

That's tough Patch, make sure to take care of yourself.

I am fine with a patch lim or a leek lim, I believe that at least one is scum.

[Merlyn]

Happy, do feel free to drop the attitude.

no
not today
I know I'm going to die, so I might as well live my final hours just pushing people

[Merlyn]

mod, can we get an updated vote count?

[Merlyn]

I have been waiting for you to catch up to see if you were going to counterclaim before asking about that, yes.

I don't really believe your explanation either. You were still taking that attitude in 1359.

I'm finding your point of view to be rather bad, specifically around Black, you, and me. Mint has already gone into it in more detail but it's pretty crazy how you seem to think Black wasn't after you, but me instead. I never felt at all pressured by her, all she ever did was raise an eyebrow at me a few times. You were at e-1 being pushed by her. Until your fake PRslip. It was right after that when she decided Mew was fine after all, think they're related? I think it's pretty likely.

VOTE: patchwork E-1

Aureal just broke open this game.

I intend to hammer

- anything needed before I go for it? I'm thinking no bc there's no point asking Patch to claim...

[Merlyn]

VOTE: patchwork

[Merlyn]

Leek, what I want to say to you is against the rules, so I'll stick with the fact that you have drained every ounce of fun out of this game for me.

[Merlyn]

I realize that I had Merlyn as a TR on Day 2, but it was a very shaky read that was partially based on the fact that I felt other options, like Patch, looked way worse -

Why is it okay and pro town for you to say one something while not revealing everything and not me? Do you not see I could make the exact same case against you here that you're doing to me? I could make many posts about the words 'shaky read' and that you're never said them?

When I call her on this, she makes the claim in 1517 that she "absolutely" had mentioned it, but when I asked her to direct me to where she'd mentioned this, in 1532 she makes the claim that our interactions around 436 are what she's talking about. Saying that she doesn't want to specifically mention that I became a null read because she doesn't want me to be able to adjust my behavior is a far cry from "absolutely" having mentioned that I was a null read.

Let's go ahead and quote straight from 436.

I have more issue with the fact that you asked so many questions and didn't seem to get anything from it. A lot of people (myself included) place votes even when they're not really sure someone is scum, just to see what reactions happen. Totally possible that this is just your gamestyle (to only place votes when you're sure) and thus NAI. Seeing you play more will help me to answer this about you

Are you being genuine here in not understanding that I was on the fence about you here? Like, I had to write 'on the fence, leaning slight town' or it just doesn't count with you?

When I further explained my position, she says in 1532, "I just bristle at being called a lurker when I have put this much effort into the game." This feels like a bit of an AtE to me

Think what you want, but after this game know that your accusation did and does continue to annoy me.

First, I have been pushing Patch since Day 1, and my vote has been on them pretty consistently. I would like to think this clears me, because it probably wouldn't be a great scum strategy to bus my partner and make cases against them across multiple days. But I'll leave that for you to decide.

It clears you, like, you're locktown? It wasn't you who brought patch down, it was Aureal. You're allowing the possibility of me bussing patch- you don't think I should consider that bussing may have been your strategy?

[Merlyn]

Aureal started a bum case on me yesterday from nowhere which is quirky, they abandoned it awful quick once it had no traction. Aureal, you also agree that it 'pretty much has' to be me, yet your vote hasn't gone on me.

Tbh I don't see it being Merlyn, I don't see it being Leek and I think this read from Mint comes out of absolutely nowhere - the question is, is it Aureal or Mint?

Both of them have come up with a fairly manufactured case, neither really seem convinced of their read but I think Aureal is biding time waiting for support to build before a lim.

VOTE: Aureal

The first question is a good one, but I've pretty much spent the night thinking Aureal is hard town. She was the (only?)one who caught patches fakeclaim- I've reread it and the momentum is not really on the patch wagon until this. Why would she sacrifice her partner if it wasn't needed yet?

[Merlyn]

Because it's not the same situation. It's not as if I put out a false read, and I didn't withhold anything.

Good to hear! Because I didn't do that either.

An equivalent situation would be me claiming today "I'm back on board with Merlyn being scum", and then claiming I'd mentioned SRing you before. You weren't an SR until today, and I can directly point to a post where I specifically said some of your posts seemed strange: 1023.

The only equivalent sitch would be if we are talking about the exact same words/phrasing? Nonsense. I'm genuinely trying to figure you out right now- is this true misunderstanding or you splitting hairs for the sake of splitting hairs?

It was inaccurate to say that you'd absolutely mentioned you were null reading me between 1123 and 1446, as you admit yourself.

It would be inaccurate for me to say that, but I never did.

[Merlyn]

It clears you, like, you're locktown? It wasn't you who brought patch down, it was Aureal. You're allowing the possibility of me bussing patch- you don't think I should consider that bussing may have been your strategy?

You think Aureal single-handedly got Patch eliminated? Aureal made a post that convinced you to place a vote after theirs, but I was the first one to make actual cases against Patch, which you previously said were reasonable.

Why is it so important for you to have credit in this?

[Merlyn]

Also, will have a full response tomorrow, I'm just dipping in for bits and bobs atm

Delta, when you're around tomorrow, I'd love to hear what you think about my take on Aureal.

[Merlyn]

So you've just made a whole case against Delta but you're not willing to hammer? Why?

Put another way: Mint and Aureal are already voting for him. Who is this case meant to convince- me? Why?? Why not just vote?

[Merlyn]

Delta, why don't you think it's Leek then instead of Aureal? It seems incredibly odd to me that he made a post of that length without a vote when 2 of the 3 people who could be the audience are already voting that way. In fact, VOTE: Leek

Pedit: There are two people I would vote for before voting you. I need to re-read the progression of votes, bc you and I came away with different ideas of the momentum on patch- I've reread it once already and I felt like the wagons could have gone either way at that point and that's the basis of my feel that Aureal is town.

[Merlyn]

I'll reread tonight when I'm not out and about.

P-edit: I'm not loving that response. It's one of those posts that seem reasonable on the surface- I'm a big proponent of making the most of the time for example- but in the same post you essentially are saying you're so sure it's delta you don't have another person on your radar. That kind of confidence doesn't align with needing more discussion when being right would win the game. I don't really understand how "I want someone to confirm or deny my thoughts on Delta' makes sense- there's only Mint, me, and Aureal there and Mint and Aureal have already voted Delta, what kind of confirm do you want or need?

[Merlyn]

UNVOTE: Leek I'm letting my personal feelings get in the way.

I'm genuinely not sure I'm cut out for this lol

You're actually awesome at this! Either you're town, and you were onto Patch super early, or you're scum, in which case you're putting up such a convincing town facade that pretty much everyone has bought in. So you know, either way kudos.

Aureal, am I right at this is essentially your case against Delta?

Spoiler: Three very big posts

Personally, I've been waiting to see what direction Delta was going to go.
Because I raised an eyebrow at his day one positions.
I really didn't like that surprise hammer.
I don't like at all that he has been so quiet day two- I haven't actually played with him before but I get the impression he's normally a hyper poster.
I think if he'd actually accidentally hammered he would have opened with some sort of mea culpa, not shrugged it off with minimal fanfare after I asked about it.
I think the fact that Black was the NK isn't a great look for him, because he'd be particularly wary of her catching onto him from past experience.
And I really don't care for how he's apparently going after the low hanging fruit in happy now, after letting half the day go by to see what sort of pushing might occur.

VOTE: Deltabreedy

Bad post.

Bad attempt to discredit.

I wasnt the only person that thought it was E-2.

Ah yes, the other reason for you specifically to have more incentive to NK Black. To give more credibility to this defense.

Black has never sniffed me out to be scum, why would I be worried more about that than anything else?

Who else here would you be more concerned about catching you if you were scum?

Whats the point in 'apologising'? What happened, happened.

I feel like you're more likely to say something if you're town who made a mistake. You'd be more flustered realizing you accidentally hammered.

Happy's play is objectively scummy. Me finding it scummy, because it's objectively scummy, is somehow scummy.

Neat

I said it was a bad post, because it was a bad post. Your arguments are based on nothing and honestly have no basis in truth - I don't really need to discredit them

And yet you are. These lines are nothing but discrediting. It is absolutely true that you hammered Mew without a claim. For you to say that's "based on nothing" and has "no basis in truth" is not indicating that you are engaging constructively with suspicion, you are trying to get rid of it no matter how legitimate the grounds.

-You're very deliberately playing the WIFOM game when trying to do this NKA.

What?

You're very focused at the tail end of the game and that does make sense - it was an unfortunate hammer. Here's two other people who were demonstrably unsure about the votecount:

I think Mew is at e-1

@Mew, I think you should claim

vc por favor

I'm not even sure how reflective Leek's post is of confusion- seems like more of a "hey wasn't that a hammer" double-check.

--

- I'm not concerned about anyone this game. Nice try though - if you read into my post history as much as you indicate you have, you'd also know that I place very very little faith in meta, especially self-referential meta.

So you're just going to side-step the question then, okay.

- Your case on me feels like it's based on a lack of contrition post-hammer. What does it achieve if I say sorry to everyone for making a mistake that at the tail end of that arsehole of a day was pretty easy to make? Again, you're playing the WIFOM game and losing.

Why do you keep citing WIFOM?? How does that even apply here? You feel like you're just throwing out random terms to wave suspicion away.

And if I didn't think it was a hammer, how could I possible consciously 'wander off' like no-one notices? It happened, dwelling on it attracts attention to me that is best placed elsewhere. Unfortuantely, being apologetic doesn't win us the game. It'd be pretty great if it did.

You're the one claiming to not realize it was a hammer. I am questioning that. It's obviously pretty good for scum if people can just hammer un-claimed people and waltz away with nobody caring. And that was exactly the sort of situation where scum might feel it's worth the risk to sneak such a hammer in.

I still townread you, but you're really, really stretching with this argument.

And bringing up your read of me sounds rather like an attempt to intimidate me into not pursuing my suspicions.

And no, I didnt get testy or dismissive. I was surprised that your focus was first on a post that game after my own, when I would have thought that a response from someone you scumread would illicit a reaction before anything else. How am I suppose to know you're at work or what your schedule is? Daft thing to get aggy over tbh

Are you intentionally gaslighting me?

Mint asked first about his argument about happy but it wasn't very convenient to get that quote out of his post from my phone so I didn't reply on that right away. Then he asked again with a post that was easier to quote, and was

still before your response

so WTF. And you're the one who got "aggy" about the timing of responses with your sarcastic comment about playing mafia to my schedule, so it was pretty rich to then turn around and immediately start complaining about the speed of my response.

Objectively scummy? I don't know if I think there's even such a thing. But you know what would be, if there is?

Dropping a hammer on someone who hasn't claimed without acknowledging the hammer, or even the vote count you supposedly think they're at. Then wandering off like you hope nobody notices that it was a hammer.

Assuming I'm not misrepping that, Your strongest point for sure is the lolhammer. I will say, going back and re-reading you tell there was a lot of confusion over the vote count so I don't think it's damning evidence on it's own. Your next point in the case seems to be that he was quiet coming in...that's not really a strong point now. The Black NK thing...I'd have to go read a game where Delta's scum and Black is town to see if she bites it to prove this point has legs, and I'm going to be honest, that sounds like more work than I want to do. So, I could see this point going either way. Your next point is the fact Delta didn't apologize, and I don't see that being AI and never have. It would be just as sus coming with an apology to me. He did say he was kicking himself too at some point.

Is there more to this case that I'm missing?

[Merlyn]

I just don't see it being Aureal. I just don't see her springing the trap on patch when it looks like no one else saw that softing. Her defense of herself in these last few posts is strong.

I'm not as sold on her Delta case- it's not super strong. I'll vote for Delta before a non elim, but are we even there yet? We have a couple of days, right? Delta, is there no one else in the game besides Aureal you find sus and would vote for? What are your thoughts on Mint?

Mod, can I get a votecount and a deadline check please?

[Merlyn]

Yeah I already stopped after my patch reread.

Doesn't it seem weird for Scum!Delta to stop you from forming a wagon on me instead of, you know, hopping on?

[Merlyn]

Also a question for all, Merlyn said that Aureal was the one entirely responsible for Patch's elimination. This is the second game where people have said I haven't contributed when I felt like I was, in my first game the SEs said that I shouldn't change my style to appease people but if my contributions are genuinely amounting to nothing then I feel like something needs to be changed for the sake of actual improvement, I'd love to know what to improve if so.

I said, "Aureal is the one who brought Patch down". And my guy, she did- like its a big thing she caught. But you were right about Patch, if you're town that's good scum hunting on your part. Please remember this all started though because you said your scum hunting cleared you. Which it doesn't, because you could be Patch's partner who had a strong bus game.

Also, I'm not an SE, but I was one of the people who said you shouldn't change your style for anyone and I stand by that.

As for the rest of this post- I'm more comfortable discussing this post game, its hard for me to know if you should even improve anything until then.

[Merlyn]

Like Delta says here that Merlyn saying my cases were reasonable doesn't mean they were convincing to them...

Reasonable =/= Convincing

...but they got Merlyn to vote, so they must have been convincing enough, I thought...

I don't get the incredulity, Mint made a reasonable case here. I don't like that you took the request for a read and put it off again. I'll second the request.
VOTE: Patchwork

How can I improve? There must be something I can address if it's true for a second game in a row.

Okay, let's break this down then. Patch was asked for a read and dodged it for the second time. You put up a well-reasoned argument on Patch- not a big one or anything, just something you'd noticed. 1) What caused me to vote Patch was ultimately their response to you- it was indignant and out of proportion to a very calm, small point you brought up. 2) At that point, you do understand that I found Patch a bit sus but not overwhelmingly so, my vote was pressure to see what they'd do which would help me further read them? I wasn't voting because 'Mint has fully convinced me that Patch is scum, let's go'.

[Merlyn]

Okay. I'm not going to vote Aureal today. I just don't see it the way Delta is seeing it, or says he's seeing it. I'm also wary of potentially being pocketed the way that Delta has said a few things, like 'I trust in you to make the right decision', like, what have I done to earn that much trust?

So for me it's Delta or Mint. I'll pick Delta first of those two, maybe we win the game.

I intend to hammer

- anything else anyone wants to say first?

[Merlyn]

Happy Birthday Aureal!

You're sure it's not a gift you got yourself?

[Merlyn]

I'm gonna go back and do a reread before I make a case. But feel free to answer your own question, mint

[Merlyn]

Look, I'm just going to say it, I think Aureal is town. I can hear Delta screaming from the dead thread that I’m blowing the game but there you go. I went back and read how the vote count and the momentum was going for the Patch wagon, and as of vote count 1517, they’re tied with Leek, two votes each. Patch comes back after an absence and votes for Leek, putting leek on e-1: the momentum is swinging the other way. There’s only Aureal and me left to push a wagon to lim and the very next thing that happens in the game is Aureal points out Patch’s fake softclaim. She could have hammered Leek and it wouldn’t have seemed odd at all. Instead, she brought up a scumslip NO ONE ELSE HAD CAUGHT.

I’m re-reading all of Mints posts and interactions rn before voting but that’s where I’m at.

[Merlyn]

I mean, I've posted every day. You look like you're leaning towards me, Aureal, is there anything I can engage in you with to talk about this?

[Merlyn]

Yeah, I would like to hear more from Merlyn too. I'm not quite sure why she sets up ELO like this, but I guess there isn't really a better composition either, looking from just yesterday's perspective since the happy kill was kinda forced due to tracker. Mint and Leek both were expressing more recent skepticism of Merlyn than I was. I think her only play here is to hope I come down on her side, and what we see with her expressing suspicion of Mint rather than me supports that she hopes to pocket me.

Also I guess because taking me to ELO worked out very nicely for her earlier in the week.

I'm still pretty new here, but in my experience the 'they're scum here bc they were scum last time' idea has been right exactly zero times.

Also, as Leek and I have both pointed out, nearly all of Merlyn's votes have come as a response to someone else's case, rather than her own:

How is this scum indicative, though? I can point you to my first completed scum game where I make several big cases against folks. I can also point you to two completed games I have where I'm town and scum makes a big case against me.

I'm interested in hearing more from Merlyn about why I'm scum here.

LOL why, will you be voting yourself? No offense, Mint, but I'm really only making a case to Aureal here.

[Merlyn]

So, for the first six pages Mint only talks about mechanics with Shea, and defends themself and Shea about how it isn't scummy to talk mechanics bc Shea is an SE and offered. It's a great way to look productive and involved in the game without actually contributing. For the next 3 pages of posts, Mint and Leek go back and forth on mechanics and whether Leek has good ideas or not for hunting scum. I feel like Mint is very careful here to not make any enemies or go on record with clear stances here- he defends Shea, but won't call him towny, and dislikes Leeks posts but wont call him scummy. This is actually where Mint first pings me, and I question them on it- they shrug it off with what will become a big ol' argument between us in the future, that they don't place pressure votes.

Post 343 is where Patch defends Mint for a crappy reason, and it's over Mint that Patch and I first clash when I call it out. This interaction will lead to many posts between Mint and myself about why Mint's not voting. I don't like it- I don't think at this point Mint has actually generated any strong reads or contributed more than asking questions, but they say that's their playstyle and I let it go, bc that should be something that I can confirm or refute later. Well, I try to let it go- Mint really dogs me about this, which to me is yet again another example of wasting time on immaterial things while looking productive.

Right after this interaction is 479 where Mint first places a vote, on Patch. Now they're decisive, and have a case- for voting against Leek, the person Mint was most dubious about until a minute ago. I can easily see a conversation taking place in the scum thread here advising Mint to start bussing. I also didn't notice this until my reread- Mint phrases this vote as a pressure vote, which they say they don't do. Then Patch and Mint argue a bit, then it seems to fade away into the background as Mint begins interacting and disagreeing with Leek again. They make as big of a case on Leek in 658, but they're still voting Patch.

Then there's several pages of responding to other things, but the only time Patch and Mint interact is to bond over Ace Attorney.

918 is a weird post. Mint tries to get Aureal to switch from Happy, stating there's 'only four days left' (!) and asks for compromise lims. They also say it's bc Happy won't be limmed today, but Happy is in fact the 2nd wagon and 4 days is a ton of time. When I point it out Mint says he can just tell from current reads, which is weak bc reads can change a lot in four days.

In 1023, Mint says that Patch (who is voting for) has made a good point against me about....the Mint asking questions argument, which he is bringing up. AGAIN. It's hard for me to understand the logic of believing the read of someone you say is scum, unless it's to start to discredit me. I wonder if I was being set up for a future lim at this point- if so obviously plans changed. Anyway, we argue about this again for some time until Mint says 'I guess that makes sense' in 1130.

The part where Mint and Patch fight is next, and honestly on reread it was enough for me to think I've completely gone down the wrong path. After thinking about for some of today, I think it's NAI. They're obviously frustrated with each other for real, but I think scum could have that happen too. Then we get to Day 2. After reading all of D1 it's clear to me that Mint has not contributed as much as the volume of posts would imply, and that the Patch case he made is not really a strong one.

In 1395, Mint says that they don't have much reason to change their vote of Patch, and that's pretty much all before launching into a much more substansial case on Happy. They don't vote, though. Just waiting to see what will become of it I think. Then Patch and Mint argue a bit more (although Mint later says it's not an argument when Delta draws attention to the bad vibes he gets from it).

So, Aureal shoots down Mints case on Happy, and this is when he decides to vote Patch again. Right after is the NEXT thing Mint and I will argue about- the use of my phrase 'back on board'. Mint pokes around some more, trying to draw some support for a happy wagon again, and interestingly says in 1489 that the main reason he wants to elim Patch is to flip for info (not bc he's built a case where he's convinced Patch is scum). Also of interest, he puts out a readslist in this time that lists me as a top townread, which is surprising in retrospect bc Mint has basically only every interacted with me to argue with me. In fact our next fight happens here, over the back on board phrase and that I took offense to being called a lurker. And that's D2. I think Mint got caught on the Patch wagon, and was intending to get off when Aureal dropped the bomb.

D3- Mint calls himself confirmed town for the Patch lim, and really doesn't like it when several folks point out that's not true. It takes him a long time to concede it. I can see why that would be frustrating for new scum, to have just lost a partner and then not even be getting cred for being on the wagon. In 1663, Mint does that thing where someone says, if I were scum would I have really done XXX? He also suddenly says that his TR on me was 'very shaky', which he has not mentioned before. I point out not mentioning everything you're thinking is exactly what he gave grief about, and he says it's not the same bc we didn't use the exact same phrasing. Regardless, he never votes me or builds a case against me, he keeps his early day vote on Delta all day. And that's D3

I'm going to stop here- obviously I VOTE: MintChippo. So I guess we get to see if I was wrong and Aureal hammers and I wasted my time writing this out lol.

[Merlyn]

• I never said that my Patch vote was a pressure vote. I placed a vote based on some things that seemed suspicious, and then asked for more content from Patch following that.

For clarity, I'm tired right now Ignore this point, that Patch vote did initially come as a pressure vote. But my other point stands!

Lol

I do think it's true you never explicitly said, I don't pressure vote, but that was my impression based your answer in 440 to my question earlier.

[Merlyn]

Of course the site goes down while I try to do more reading.

Do you guys have any thoughts on why Black was the first NK?

Merlyn, is there a reason you were eyeing Mint at the end of the last day but took a while to explain why once the day started?

I think it's bc she noticed the fake claim- good for scum on D1 to get her to move her vote from patch, but dangerous to keep around.

It only benefits scum to rush to a vote, I wasn't so confident it wasn't you that I ready to go all in.

[Merlyn]

Do you guys have any thoughts on why Black was the first NK?

Yes, I think that a discussion Patch and I had on Day 2 basically established the reason why the N1 kill wasn't me:

Spoiler: Large Quotes

mint the real question here is if i was scum why would i not kill u and opt for black instead. literally black has townread me for the majority of the game, asides from when she put me at e-1. she did not crumb at all, and even if she did i did not notice and fn is a pretty useless pr anyways.
so, with the same logic that you scumread me for the black kill: if i supposedly killed her because of her push on me, why would i choose to spare you? you're the consensus townread, you're basically the town leader at this point, and assuming you're town, the far better option would be to kill you. it removes the pressure you've been putting on me (as you were pushing me for the longest and probably the strongest as well), and it removes someone, who is, again, consensus town. black's push on me was negligible enough, and scum!me is certainly good enough (i mean idk i've found that in most of my scumgames i'm pretty widely townread) to respond to her and get her to townread me again.

i assume the reason why scum didn't kill you was to put shade on you, but if i were scum it certainly would've been a byebye to mint.

mint the real question here is if i was scum why would i not kill u and opt for black instead. literally black has townread me for the majority of the game, asides from when she put me at e-1. she did not crumb at all, and even if she did i did not notice and fn is a pretty useless pr anyways.

First off, for all I know, scum picked up on some kind of breadcrumbing that the rest of us haven't. Friendly Neighbor is a better PR to get rid of than none. Also, I think you answer the question yourself:

i assume the reason why scum didn't kill you was to put shade on you,

but if i were scum it certainly would've been a byebye to mint.

To me, both possible scenarios seem equally plausible here.

On the one hand, as you say yourself, if you were scum, then maybe I'd be the more obvious kill. Since I'm not dead, maybe that would imply that you're not scum.

But then again, maybe you considered this while making the kill, and went for Black instead so you could use this as a defense.

It's impossible to know for sure which way this goes. The kill on Black isn't a super strong point against you, but it also doesn't make you look any

less

scummy to me. I just thought it was worth pointing out, because it did happen.

Patch was quick to use Black's NK as a defense, saying that if they were scum, then they obviously would have gone for me instead. Now that we know Patch is scum, it's clear that I was left alive specifically so this defense could be used on Day 2 to make everyone think I was on the wrong track.

As for why Black was chosen, Black was clearly suspicious of Patch (see 1238 and 1243 for examples) and even put out a lengthy post describing the information we'd gain from their elimination, which I referenced several times when describing why I thought Patch was our best choice. Black did eventually vote for Mew instead, but they only said that they were reconsidering Patch, and never seemed to be TRing them. But strangely, as you noted yourself, Patch insisted several times that Black wasn't pushing them:

mint the real question here is if i was scum why would i not kill u and opt for black instead. literally black has townread me for the majority of the game, asides from when she put me at e-1.

i don't really feel like black was pushing me- obviously she was questioning it, but i responded to it fairly well and she didn't continue asking afterwards. to push someone means you'd probably have to scumread them, and black didn't really seem to scumread me (keep in mind this assumption is made more on that one delta post where he asserted the same opinion).

ow you seem to think Black wasn't after you,

she wasn't pressuring me though?

In retrospect, I think this makes sense. Black was one of the people putting heavy pressure on Patch, but less than I was. So if the goal in killing Black was to frame my suspicion of Patch as being faulty, then it makes sense to try and downplay the fact that Black was also suspicious of them - they remove one source of pressure on Patch while also attempting to remove the association.

I don't think this says too much about our current situation, other than that if you think this thought process seems reasonable, then it probably would have made more sense for scum!me to go along with the plan here, rather than continuing to disagree with Patch's defense.

You've had this ready to go for a while, I think

[Merlyn]

Lol no, I don't think you had the post ready, I think you had the explanation ready in case you were ever asked.

[Merlyn]

It would be amazing if you had the post ready though

[Merlyn]

Do you think my explanation there is fundamentally flawed?

In that you are mechanically scum, I will proooobbanbly not be trusting your explanations to anything.

[quote
You've clearly been trying to appeal to Aureal here to make it easier to convince them to side with you today. You stated quite clearly yesterday that, from your perspective, the final scum was either Delta or myself, and said that you were simply picking Delta "first of those two". But today you're not so confident after all? Hm.

I know this this is your first time to ELO, but it's my fourth. No one but scum should be super duper confident in ELO unless somehow you've ended up with someone who slipped or something that mechanically proves who the wolf is. I learned this the hard way in my first town game here, where I busted out with a vote for Alianna in the first few real life hours of the last day bc I was convinced I knew JasonWazza was town- and Jason then promptly voted Alianna too, ending the game with a scum win.

I'd also point out that I was the first person to be gutsy enough to make a vote anyway.

Merlyn, that didn't really answer the question. You don't need to vote to talk, but voted along with your explanation. How did you suddenly find that confidence?

Please see above. Also, is 'suddenly' the right word for a vote that took 4 real life days?

[Merlyn]

Also, what is your favorite color?

Don't you want to know my favorite color too Aureal? You're just gonna play favorites like that, huh?

[Merlyn]

Sure, but is there an actual flaw in what I said or are you just throwing shade at that post based on nothing?

I'm not sure where we're misunderstanding each other today, Mint. Aureal is cleared town. So it's you or me, right? And I know it's not me, so it has to be you. The flaw in the post is that your explanation can't be trusted bc it comes from scum. It doesn't matter if you put up the most perfect, armor plated anything today, bc I know where it comes from.

Being "gutsy" enough to place the first vote isn't a strong point. You only voted after noticing that Aureal was leaning towards you being scum, which meant your hopes of them voting me to allow your quickhammer were gone. Your "gutsy" vote also came with a big case against me, which was, of course, made to convince Aureal alone. The timing of your vote here is key, and it only came after you noticed Aureal wasn't playing in your favor.

Says the person who waited until after me to place an opposing vote.

[Merlyn]

Here's what I'm going to do: stop talking to you, Mint, because I'm tired of the circles.

[Merlyn]

You are so combative, and you don't listen well to what other people say. There was really no need for it either. But hey, this whole game has been filled with poison, so why should today be any different.

[Merlyn]

Hey, remember when you asked for advice on how to play better? I have some for you now. Learn the difference between a push and being relentlessly, endlessly, combative for no reason other than to spoil the fun of the game for others.

[Merlyn]

I'm so curious, are you capable of not getting the last word? If I keep posting, will you just keep going because you have to say that you're right?

[Merlyn]

[Merlyn]

gg Town! Aureal, you deserved that win.

[Merlyn]

I am also extremely grateful this game is over.

[Merlyn]

GG! Mint I think you played this incredibly well and you definitely have a bright future here if you stick around!

Aureal, as usual, well played. I knew you would pull this one out for us!

Merlyn I'm sorry you didn't really enjoy your time here but fwiw I enjoyed playing with you <3

gg everyone, merlyn that was a pretty nice performance even though you lost. Good job also to mint chippo and aureal!

AAAAA MERLYN!!!! you did so good!! i loved partnering w yoy this game it was so nice! thanks for brightening thr game experience for me :3
honestly this couldve gone very different if i just went and counter-claimed.... how sad i chickenrd out

also you guys.were seriously giving me too much credit this game i didnt even realize black noticed my pr crumb and just thought that was a thing she was doing LMAO i killrd black bc mint was too obv and black was a better shade.kill
anyways yeah this was pretty good, i did get rlly burnt out towarss the end. it was way better speccing, though! good job, everyone! particularly you, mint! your play is really good

more later, im on a phone and need to do stuff

Likewise. I guess being scum against the same person in two different games does happen, eh Black?

You know what, it's just a good learning experience on my part, people have clashing playstyles on this site and I'll know to avoid them in the future is all. Shea, Black, Aureal, I really enjoyed playing with you and hope I get a chance to do it again! Maybe next time you can be scum Aureal and watch me tinfoil over it like crazy LOL

Paaaaatchhhhhh!!! I loved being scumbuddies with you. And you deserve a ton of credit- that hardbus of me was the only reason folks were hesitant to think I was wolf. Can't wait to play again together!!

[Merlyn]

GG

Delta, you did a great job replacing in, you may have been wrong about Aureal but you were so clearly town! I was like, why are these peeps voting him lol!

[Merlyn]

Cheers. For context you had me fully fooled

I look forward to being policy limmed by you in our next game

[Merlyn]

Here though, I will have to adjust my playstyle to not make the game unpleasant for others. Take care and see you in future games.

Leek, I really appreciated this post, thanks for saying it. Cheers and best of luck to you

[Merlyn]

nope

well, that makes sense on why you'd want the PTs then