Newbie 2123: Synthwave | Game Over

[JasonWazza]

UNVOTE:

Let's start with this, gonna catch up now

[JasonWazza]

Let's start with this, gonna catch up now

Hi! I am sorry to be essayposting as you as you roll up

Never apologize for content, content is always good.

[JasonWazza]

What in the actual fuck is this game?

[JasonWazza]

Jesus i feel like Guerilla and Delta need to be put in separate corners and not allowed to talk to each other.

I'm also baffled as to where these wagons ended up, and hate that we do have a claim from Overseer already.

@Guerilla: You need to stop the gambity shit, it doesn't actually help town in general, and i really want to know, how in the fuck you think your magically the nightkill in any scenario from where we are right now, even with an overseer scum flip i don't see it being beneficial to scum to kill you first, your still low fucking priority, and this honestly is just you showing your newbishness.

Black and Mala are town, Delta was on this list but the last 4-5 pages make me less sure on that one

I also really don't like how Towwl hasn't been really wagoned properly, there was a short wagon where they looked scum AF and then everyone seemed to ignore it to get in a fight, Towwl was honestly
a scum read like the whole game, so i'm confused by this.

Actually no i'm not, it was the Guerilla gambit crap, but it needed to be ignored, as Guerilla doing weird gambity shit for no reason.

This is my surface thoughts after a single read, i probably need to re-read specific sections to get more.

Mostly specifically to see how the Towwl wagon died a bit better, because it felt like we were getting somewhere useful and then somehow that vanished, and i frankly feel like i watched a magic trick with that wagon vanishing.

[JasonWazza]

Attempted to paint themselves as lock!town in the case of red Overseer flip.

Yeah for you specifically, how do you not just think this is a continuation of the part where they tried to do whatever they were doing with black as a gambit/mind meld moment, and them being for lack of a better term, that sort of player.

Like yeah it's wrong obviously, but why do you think that has to come from scum and not from town?

Because maybe i missed it, but you weren't scum reading them for that shit, and this is just a continuation of that sort of play.

[JasonWazza]

That feels a bit quick.

Can you at least try and answer the part of how your a more important kill then PR hunting or shooting someone who is higher on the town list like Black?

[JasonWazza]

Bad Delta, answer my question.

[JasonWazza]

Here's my issue with that, you seem like an overly gambity player, so "why would anyone bus their partner that hard" actually is kind of explained by your style that you have shown thus far.

And being the main proponent of a wagon doesn't mean that wagon will go to completion, at the start i don't believe it felt like the wagon was destined to be a lim wagon, so maybe it's just a play gone overzealous.

I didn't say certain. But I do think that's how it'll go.

Didn't you?

Overseer flipping red would make me insta-locktown, and I'm basically the only one it would make locktown. Invis, towwl, and Black went back and forth on reading him as scum or on voting for him, and they're all experienced enough that they could ostensibly be bussing. It doesn't matter if they were or weren't, it matters that it's possible to make that argument about them. The doubt can be conjured. So, and I truly hate to say it so overtly, but it's not in mafia's interest to kill anyone else after Overseer flips red.

This feels kinda certain to me.

[JasonWazza]

Can you explain to me why exactly what Overseer was saying is specifically scummy with regards to the E-1 stuff, and not just Town in a similar state to what you are now in this argument to the death?

My worry is that both sides are conf-biasing at each other, and we are mostly just ignoring the scummy players.

Like have you considered that any of what Overseer said was from town at all, and not just maintained it as a no this has to be scum.

I say shit like conf town and locktown, before this game I was unaware that players use these apparently fucking exclusively for mechanical confirmations. When I played you could say shit like that and people just got what you meant.

And i will note, i get what you mean, i still use this sort of wording to express the strength of my reads.

[JasonWazza]

Can i just be certain, you think the Scum team is Delta/Overseer?

[JasonWazza]

Guerilla's convinced that Overseer is scum and I've come in as a white knight to save 'my partner's day.

Great solve, mate - I love how you're desperately clinging to it because you're too far in the hole to come back from it.

Now let's focus here, now that i have enough of Guerilla's reasoning to continue.

Delta, who do you think the scum are since it sounds like you think Guerilla is town? (At least that's how i interpret 811)

And why are you so defensive of Overseer is it that solid a town read?

[JasonWazza]

Oh my bad, i misread 811 then.

And i'll point out that your smartassery (read posts like 818) probably doesn't help the characterization that it's a defense.

P-Edit: I feel like Bat and Towwl are both way too high on that reads list.

[JasonWazza]

Bat is game solving sure, but it's the narrow kind of game solve that doesn't necessarily come from town. (Somewhat feels like working backwards from an answer, though I'd need to see more actual posting because that might just be my gut screaming at a newb tell)

Towwl is just way to scummy and again, I feel like should have been wagoned way fucking earlier, unfortunately I don't think it's reasonable to focus on today though (Guerilla/Overseer does need some resolution today as much as i hate that this is the game state).

[JasonWazza]

Unfortunately I think it has to be Guerilla or Overseer at least for today, game state kinda forces it.

Not to mention i don't think Bat is the Lim even if I go outside that.

[JasonWazza]

I mentioned that somewhere. We can't lim a third party unless we want to have this discussion again on D2. It has to be me or overseer.

Less this and more, let's not out more players because it literally doesn't help town.

Not to mention i don't think Bat is the Lim even if I go outside that.

Who then?


Regarding Guerrilla Vs Overseer, at the moment, I'd lim overseer because I'm really not understanding he quitting...
It's coming to me like scum might have screwed it up, don't know...

Not to be a dick, but isn't it kind of clear who i think is the more likely scum?

Have you read anything i've posted or no?

[JasonWazza]

Towwl.

[JasonWazza]

That i'm not fully sure on myself just yet, that requires me to re-check a few things and do a secondary re-read of specific parts of the game.

[JasonWazza]

Hey Mala, how have things been?

Also opinion on Guerilla/Overseer?

[JasonWazza]

@Black: Need something from you, the change of vote off Towwl, it feels kinda baffling to me, when you took the vote off and voted Overseer were you thinking that Towwl was still scummy seperately, or had Overseer somehow made you think Towwl wasn't scummy?

I feel like there is something off about the progression that happened before the fight started, I just can't really put my finger entirely on it, but i'll probably have to be asking questions to get there.

[JasonWazza]

432 feels like pushing towards a solve (acknowledging that your scum reads don't make sense as a pair, and therefore that you have to be missing a scum in some way)
474 i can see being slightly scummy, but actually makes more sense from town (If everyone thinks X is scum, then they probably aren't scum, if it's too easy it probably is.)
510 is Town trying to look to possibly break out of wrong assumptions
556 i like, as i clearly think Towwl is scum and has been the entire game, sure this is sheeping black but i'm fine with that.
572 Is good, trying to question what seems like a weird interaction (Look at this stuff from outside yourself, it does look weird for someone to be full protecting another player D1)
615 is consistent logic continuing as intended.
627 I actually like this reads list because of the progression with Delta, it lines up with when i started getting iffy of my own Delta read.

Let me know if you want me to continue with the rest, but for now i'll leave it here.

[JasonWazza]

@Black: Need something from you, the change of vote off Towwl, it feels kinda baffling to me, when you took the vote off and voted Overseer were you thinking that Towwl was still scummy seperately, or had Overseer somehow made you think Towwl wasn't scummy?

I feel like there is something off about the progression that happened before the fight started, I just can't really put my finger entirely on it, but i'll probably have to be asking questions to get there.

Well guess i should attempt to clarify this feeling a bit more with no answer from Black, Page 27 as a whole feels... awkward, because i don't understand what's so hard to believe about Overseer having been confident in a read of Bat+Invis (Yes i'm aware i'm the Invis slot) because put simply, using the PoE Overseer was using, it does kinda line up, not sure it's good reasoning as a PoE, but having that remove an entire town read and make you jump off Towwl seems, weird, almost like the plan was never to fully pursue the Towwl thing in the first place.

The reason i wanted this answer was to figure out if Towwl/Black was a reasonable suspicion to have especially given 659 seems woefully out of place.

And a special consideration to be taken from 659 is, why does Towwl assume that we have to be in C with both goons?

Seems like an odd thing to call out considering you can make fake claims while not being in C fairly easily, and the whole thing seems to be based on that.

[JasonWazza]

Seeking a replacement for Black.

@MOD: I mean i think with the above considered, we go back to a frozen deadline correct?

So it's not actually approaching just yet i don't think, so no rush.

[JasonWazza]

Why is everyone getting replaced? What on God's green earth is this game?!

You will find this just happens in some games, sometimes RL changes and your unable to devote the proper time to a game, sometimes the game stresses you out too much and you need to stop, replacements are there for these situations.

I've been in games with fully replaced player lists before, which can be jarring, but it also can make a game more interesting (at least personally speaking)

[JasonWazza]

So it's not actually approaching just yet i don't think, so no rush.

Would it bother you if you mis-limmed? Because I think voting me out might just be the best option for all of you, and the replacements are gonna stall reads anyway. I'm not doing a bit here, I think I've been very bad for this game and the town. I'd feel guilty subbing out but I could also sub out if y'all think that's better for town progress.

I mean i suspect a mislim is required here, and i don't think you need to sub out for town progress at all, you've been fine, Mafia games turn into clusterfucks, it's kind of the beauty of the game.

I'm still honestly debating whether the push should be you or Overseer's slot, and which Elim would solidify my reads better.

I will say i suspect all up it has to be you to solidify my Delta read a bit better, but i'm going to ISO Delta in a bit to check my thoughts on that.

[JasonWazza]

@Delta: If Guerilla flips town, would you still be suspecting the Black slot? Who would be your scum reads in that case.

[JasonWazza]

Okay, why did i get prodded at 12 hours.

-___-

I wont be limming the black slot

Blackie :[

Because 842 isn't a proper post.

[JasonWazza]

And a special consideration to be taken from 659 is, why does Towwl assume that we have to be in C with both goons?

Seems like an odd thing to call out considering you can make fake claims while not being in C fairly easily, and the whole thing seems to be based on that.

I came up with a possible story for the game as I was too excited not to share it, basically. Column C is part of the story because there's where fake-claims are the most poisonous to town, as they're possible to go uncountered. I spoilered it because it's not completely serious as it requires quite a few wild assumptions, including which column we're in. As far as the game utility for posting that in the first place, I wanted to pre-empt a possible fakeclaim from overseer while also (and just as importantly) claiming bragging rights for the case my theory is somehow true.

So 2 things i really have to go into here in this post.

First Setup's and why setup C isn't the only bad place for False Claims.

Column A & Row 2: Mafia Roleblocker, Mafia Goon, Town Jailkeeper, Town Tracker, Vanilla Townie x 5
Column B & Row 1: Mafia Rolecop, Mafia Goon, Town Tracker, Town Friendly Neighbor, Vanilla Townie x 5
Column B & Row 2: Mafia Rolecop, Mafia Goon, Town Jailkeeper, Town Friendly Neighbor, Vanilla Townie x 5

So first we go for here, you'll find that because of how the setups are, Jailkeeper, Tracker and Friendly Neighbor are possible in all combinations, meaning Fake claims don't have to be in C to pass, and as a note, Scum actually have the ability to know the column, so they can play towards these setups for some relative safety.

That's why the fact that you call out C and claiming Tracker/Doctor is weird, because it has nothing to do with the specific Column we are in.

I mean i suspect a mislim is required here [...]

I'm not really sure how I feel about you feeling required to vote out one of two people you seem to think are town. We might've been framing a lot of the recent conversation about the yeet being either Guerilla or overseer's slot/The Bulge for the past few pages, but enough people have swapped out and the wagons on both Guerilla and The Bulge at this point don't seem to certain. Though as I said before, if there's going to be a wagon on me (or anybody at this point) I think it ought to be with the intent to eliminate, as I'm not sure how much value we can get from pressure at this point in the day.

Issue is, i think Overseer and Guerilla are town, do i want to risk outing a third possible Town player's role, and giving Scum basically a bullseye for PR's?

Because if you trust that both are town, that's 2 of the 5/6 Vanilla Townies outed, and only 3/4 more Vanilla townies for the scum to accidently hit if they are going to PR hunt.

Not to mention the risk of also just outing a PR that we think is scummy.

Hence it ends up being better to Elim within the claims we already have, because we gain information from flips, and we stop giving the scum team more information.

[JasonWazza]

Someone here? I'll keep reading, but did Guerilla claim vanilla at some point?

He didn't explicitly claim i don't think, but he may as well have, I think Bazuf called him Vanilla and he never directly countered it by saying he isn't, and the whole sacrifice play is clear VT

Good luck on the tail end of this game.

[JasonWazza]

I think Bazuf called him Vanilla and he never directly countered it by saying he isn't

/He hasn't claimed

[JasonWazza]

VOTE: GuerillaWoo

Also have noticed how the votes sat, so this will at least give some interesting insight as well.

[JasonWazza]

VOTE: GuerillaWoo

This is E-1 just FYI to all.

[JasonWazza]

Bazuf and Bat, if you think it's more likely Overseer's slot, instead of Guerilla, you should vote The Bulge now.

Unofficial VC

GuerillaWoo (E-1): Deltabreedy, The Bulge, JasonWazza, Pink Ball
The Bulge (2): GuerillaWoo, towwl
Mafiabat (2): Malakittens, Bazuf

Not voting (1): Mafiabat

[JasonWazza]

Guerilla don't, only reason for that is like right at deadline.

[JasonWazza]

So the reason why I asked if Guerilla claimed VT was because this caught my attention:

I don't want a town consensus on me being town

If you're a VT you should actually try to get widely townread to drag the nightkill. This is softing PR in a subtle matter. Guerilla was trying to pocket Black and when Black didn't pick it up and backfired, he backed off.

Just read this again, isn't this potentially trying to cause WIFOM as to whether he is a PR or not?

Sure it went down the drain, but i think it tracks that this isn't a fully bad thing.

[JasonWazza]

What's the plan here exactly Delta?

[JasonWazza]

That quote is the elaboration.

note that the order is if Guerilla then Bat.

[JasonWazza]

So, if Guerilla flips red, then it's likely him with towwl, but this is unclear. If he flips green, it's overseer/Bulge, Delta, bazuf, and/or Pink.

Are we sure we want to lim Guerilla, though?

Bat, did you think Black was scummy?

If not then what exactly has Pink done to make that a scum read?

[JasonWazza]

I also think that coming in with that shade and deciding to play along with the common discourse so far that it's a binary choice rather than questioning it comes more from a scum mindset than not.

So then i am scum as well then?

[JasonWazza]

When have I bussed Guerilla?

Wrong way around Bat, Guerilla was consistently voting you then backed off the second you got put to E-1

[JasonWazza]

Inconsistent reads, SRs with little to no justification, and he hasn’t even explained why I, in particular, am scum.

Also can i be clear on this, are you expecting black's replacement to have exactly the same reads as Black?

This is for both Delta and Bat since they are both seemingly pushing this narrative.

[JasonWazza]

Jason is right: the game-state requires my flip.

Requires A flip, not necessarily yours.

[JasonWazza]

All good Delta, Just make sure you actually plan on hammering, and don't plan on trying to pull us to deadline, and force someone else to hammer.

[JasonWazza]

That's mostly irrelevant since we still have Overseers reads from earlier to run off.

[JasonWazza]

im about halfway thru and atp strongly opposed to a guerilla lim. the exchange w black about the whole coyness debaucle reads very much as tvt

and the progression of the whole thing seems natural from both sides

Exactly how does that make Black town?

Because Black scum would have a natural progression as well, because it's the same progression. (Mostly just ruling out SvS)

[JasonWazza]

After that, it's a lot of very vague thoughts that are accompanied with an 'idk', and an assertion that Mala wouldn't vote for Black (Now Pink).

Would like to see something more, and something with more oomph before EoD if poss.

I mean i was trying to setup a nice force on Mala to make Mala be a hammer vote, but that looks like it's steadily going to shit if i'm being honest.

[JasonWazza]

Here

And sure Mala could say they aren't here, but not much can be done if that was going to be the case anyway.

[JasonWazza]

C’mon, say that I’m shading Bat without voting. C’mon, call me Guerilla’s partner when I put him on E-1 and left the thread

But... you did do that stuff, doing this doesn't actually change things?

[JasonWazza]

Like why are you worried about optics right now over getting a lim through Pink?

[JasonWazza]

C’mon, say that I’m shading Bat without voting. C’mon, call me Guerilla’s partner when I put him on E-1 and left the thread

Then what the fuck is this Pink?

Like how is this not just being worried about optics and changing your vote?

[JasonWazza]

Delta scumslipped way back at the beginning of the game but I was being pragmatic; I won’t build a wagon on him today. Solving Guerilla today is better because with either a scumflip and some players with a pretty much lock town position, or a town flip and my read of Delta is correct

I mean if you have something concrete by all means.

But if you do have something that concrete, run up Delta, not Bat?

[JasonWazza]

Cause it looks to me like they voted for you and then for Bat so... which is it?

He's not worried about optics, he's throwing optics in your face. "Tell me I'm just shading now. Here, I voted." I think he's still going to vote for me and then turn on you.

This is worrying about optics though, continuing to lim you regardless would be not worrying about optics.

[JasonWazza]

im reading as fast as i can, skimming would be a waste of time, but feeling pretty strongly that i wont finish by the time a hammer hits. could someone summarize the case against guerilla?

actually scartch the open q, i want to hear it from delta and jason (if youd both care to indulge me)

Delta and Guerilla got in a slap fight and somehow that pushed the votes onto Overseer/Guerilla.

I'm gonna be honest, i'm on Guerilla to confirm my reads more so then actually expecting him to flip scum, i think Overseer/Guerilla is T/T

[JasonWazza]

Cause it looks to me like they voted for you and then for Bat so... which is it?

He's not worried about optics, he's throwing optics in your face. "Tell me I'm just shading now. Here, I voted." I think he's still going to vote for me and then turn on you.

This is worrying about optics though, continuing to lim you regardless would be not worrying about optics.

Scumreading Delta is not worrying about optics

Yeah but voting Bat and going "Ha i did it, suck it" is definitely worrying about optics.

[JasonWazza]

Can you help us out with who you actually scumread then, Jason?

I know one is Towwl, but who would you have down as a partner?

Be great if it was Pink

I was thinking it was Towwl/Bazuf with Black being a huge long shot as the extra replacement for Bazuf.

Yeah but voting Bat and going "Ha i did it, suck it" is definitely worrying about optics.

No it’s not, is antagonizing Delta.

Then must you?

[JasonWazza]

Going to need a bit more on why that's a slip

Seconded.

[JasonWazza]

Are you like going super galaxy brain and assuming that he wants a hammer so that he can just run through a win?

Is this why you think it's Delta/Guerilla?

[JasonWazza]

Oh wait... i think i see it now.

You think that's a scum slip?

[JasonWazza]

Oh wait... i think i see it now.

You think that's a scum slip?

You know what a scum slip is by definition?

I mean i do, and i really want to be able to check that i'm reading the same thing without giving it away, but i honestly can't think of a way to check it, and i'm worried i've basically just been staring at a puzzle for 15 minutes and my brain has just made up an answer.

[JasonWazza]

Can i just check something Pink.

You think it's a scum slip, but you still think it could be Bat/Guerilla?

[JasonWazza]

Can i just check something Pink.

You think it's a scum slip, but you still think it could be Bat/Guerilla?

Really want an answer to this Pink btw.

[JasonWazza]

Jason, take a stance now

My issue is, if I'm getting the slip accurate, i feel like you should be on Delta's ass way harder.

PR hunting is no small crime, and i think that's what your implying the slip might be.

[JasonWazza]

Then my stance is i'm too stupid and have no fucking clue.

[JasonWazza]

Will say this, no need to explain it immediately, i'll happily sit with the dunce hat for the moment, but i would like to be filled in at some point as to the slip.

[JasonWazza]

UNVOTE: GuerillaWoo

[JasonWazza]

Yeah pink, just quickly, why are we somehow trusting newbs to see it when i can't?

I know i'm not the brightest, but i feel like scum might just jump this without actually seeing anything.

[JasonWazza]

Yeah pink, just quickly, why are we somehow trusting newbs to see it when i can't?

I know i'm not the brightest, but i feel like scum might just jump this without actually seeing anything.

To follow this, i would like to have Towwl now be the one to explain the slip, when explaining time comes.

[JasonWazza]

Because the overseer wagon had faltered at that point.

Bat/Bazuf had express joining it, so no it hadn't.

[JasonWazza]

Like just as a note, Pink was actually the only one keeping the Guerilla wagon on any legs.

[JasonWazza]

Pink your Black's slot.

[JasonWazza]

@Jason: By the time Pink joined Guerilla's wagon interest in it was basically gone, even you expressed that the majority of the discourse was Guerilla versus myself, rather than Guerilla vs Overseer. The replacement also went some way to lessening people's interest in the wagon.

I mean theoretical placement of the wagons was as follows.

GuerillaWoo (E-1): Deltabreedy, The Bulge, JasonWazza, Pink Ball
The Bulge (E-1): GuerillaWoo, towwl, Bazuf, Mafiabat

[JasonWazza]

I'd have to be scum for it to be a slip lmao

Hate to break it to you, this is the point they are making.

[JasonWazza]

Jason, you got the explanation. Take a stance now.

My stance is this is slim, and I don't like Towwl running with this so hard when I think they are scum.

That said i still think this is better then Guerilla/Overseer's slot.

[JasonWazza]

Jason, you got the explanation. Take a stance now.

My stance is this is slim, and I don't like Towwl running with this so hard when I think they are scum.

That said i still think this is better then Guerilla/Overseer's slot.

Sure, you don't like towwl having that stance. What about me.

Worry was already Towwl with a long shot at Black, second worry is that Towwl spotting that slip is kinda odd, and that in the case of Towwl/Pink, this has been fed via the PT.

I think i need to re-read Towwl's ISO

[JasonWazza]

and that in the case of Towwl/Pink, this has been fed via the PT.

I asked you first and you didn't find it. I asked towwl and this was his reaction:

I can easily see scum motivation but I'm still not sure I see a "slip"

Unless you think the scumPT looks like "hey towwl when you get to the thread, you have to act like you don't understand where the slip is, then I'll explain you what a slip is and then you'll say you now understand and join me", your point makes no sense at all.

No my thinking is that was genuine, then as you tell him to re-check, you feed him the slip.

This almost feels too tinfoily though.

[JasonWazza]

Spoiler: this is long so yeah

Just woke up and caught up and I'm willing to go crazy and wagon Delta. I'm also willing to be talked out of it though (by anybody who is not Delta)

Read what I quoted and tell me if you see the slip

I can easily see scum motivation but I'm still not sure I see a "slip"

So ^ Genuine

Just woke up and caught up and I'm willing to go crazy and wagon Delta. I'm also willing to be talked out of it though (by anybody who is not Delta)

Read what I quoted and tell me if you see the slip

I can easily see scum motivation but I'm still not sure I see a "slip"

A scum slip happens when a post shows that the player is saying something from a scum perspective because they have more information about the game than town has. In other words, when a player has excess of info and they show that excess of info in the thread.

Read my quotes again.

Feed Slip here.

Just woke up and caught up and I'm willing to go crazy and wagon Delta. I'm also willing to be talked out of it though (by anybody who is not Delta)

Read what I quoted and tell me if you see the slip

I can easily see scum motivation but I'm still not sure I see a "slip"

A scum slip happens when a post shows that the player is saying something from a scum perspective because they have more information about the game than town has. In other words, when a player has excess of info and they show that excess of info in the thread.

Read my quotes again.

Ok, I see it. That's pretty fucking bad lol.

VOTE: Delta

Genuine Post being told the slip in PT

Feels like a lot of tinfoil here, and this is probably straight paranoia.

[JasonWazza]

It might just be me trying to protect my Ego as well.

[JasonWazza]

VOTE: DeltaBreedy

This is E-1

[JasonWazza]

To clarify - is that a scumread or is that pragmatic?

Bit of column A, A lot of Column B (i waited for the VC to be posted for a reason), Also just don't really like any of the alternatives.

[JasonWazza]

And also, i feel like you also kinda just claimed VT already, so not like we are unfucking that part.

P-Edit: I'd probably go Towwl first still.

[JasonWazza]

SOFT claimed VT

EBWOP

[JasonWazza]

Didn't answer my first question sorry - Do you scumread Pink at present? What about when I flip town?

Scum read on Pink would be dependant on your flip yeah, if you flip town, Pink is definitely that second spot.

Reminder, i'm going from a starting point of Towwl/Bazuf with a third as Black

[JasonWazza]

SOFT claimed VT

EBWOP

I've not claimed or softclaimed anything.

Scum are already on my wagon so do it - flip me! No need to VCA on this - it's Pink and Guerilla.

I'll hammer at 2300 UTC+1 (9 hours from now) if it needs it.

You do this as a PR?

[JasonWazza]

im reading as fast as i can, skimming would be a waste of time, but feeling pretty strongly that i wont finish by the time a hammer hits. could someone summarize the case against guerilla?

Out of curiosity, are you still around?

[JasonWazza]

That really makes me doubt my read on Overseer, like that is just blatantly trying to hit a no lim at this point.

[JasonWazza]

Either way, my two scum reads were Delta first and mafiabat second.
I'd much prefer to lim mafiabat today, but I'm OK with liming Delta.

What the fuck do you mean?

If Delta is first what are you wanting Bat?

[JasonWazza]

Why list chronological order?

[JasonWazza]

Bazuf, what's your confidence difference between Bat and Delta?

[JasonWazza]

Why do you SR Jason over anyone else?

I mean, was basically openly said that they are voting Invis's slot, and not me.

So just want to note it means that it's probably not an SR of me specifically (pedantic but I think slightly relevant).

[JasonWazza]

Really honestly not liking that your trying to basically get a 4th claim on the board by trying to force a change to Bat.

[JasonWazza]

I mean I'll just point this out, Bazuf not wanting to change to Delta while having already acknowledged that we need to keep more people from claiming is scummy as well.

[JasonWazza]

I feel like he should just do it to be a smartass now.

[JasonWazza]

I'ma be honest, slightly disappointed that wasn't a self vote.

[JasonWazza]

Vanilla townie by the way

No shit sherlock

[JasonWazza]

It's a hammer assuming Umlaut counts the fact that Delta called themself DeltaBacon

[JasonWazza]

If he's lying about being town in twilight I'm gonna be mad

Don't be mad with commitment to the bit, it allows you to be glad when you see the flip.

[JasonWazza]

Will note that while i don't think you should out yourself immediately from day start, that if we have an information role, you should consider claiming your information (if it's useful) today, because if Guerilla/Bulge are town, you don't have a whole lot of room to hide in.

[JasonWazza]

Towwl, issue with that is there is no clue to the column.

Roll a C, and your basically just gonna out a cop doing that right now.

Roll an A, and Tracker potentially got no result (different to target went no where.), and has to give us false information (claiming that is bad news), which can be just as bad.

[JasonWazza]

That seems like an odd pair of quotes to use to try and start a vote Guerilla, got some reasoning for those?

[JasonWazza]

Because that's the point Guerilla, Generally it would be basically everyone doing the same sort of thing, and hopefully you have enough unclaimed players, that you don't immediately screw yourself.

That said, i think it doesn't really work well in the Newbie setup in general, outside of a Lim on scum D1, 7P with 2 scum doesn't leave a lot of room for error in your cover players, and they have to act for the whole day, that this is a true statement (or immediately ruin the cover).

In practice, it rules out too many players way too often.

[JasonWazza]

Pink kill is definitely weird, it's why i'm not voting just yet.

Trying to parse it in my brain to work out who the fuck would make that kill, and was honestly hoping to rule out the more experienced players (because it feels like a bad kill) but a quick check of Mala's contributions in Scum PT's tells me they aren't someone to generally be deciding the kill, and Bulge also doesn't seem to have a lot of recent Scum PT's to search through.

[JasonWazza]

I mean it only got mentioned like 20 times Bulge.

[JasonWazza]

VOTE: Towwl

[JasonWazza]

I mean i don't even know how useful that wagon is, at least me i only joined after Delta decided to soft claim, and add to the pile of claimed players i was maintaining we had to lim between.

[JasonWazza]

i had only read up to like page 24 before the day ended

btw, now that you caught up, do you have any thoughts for us?

[JasonWazza]

Then why exactly did you join the wagon?

Deadline crunch, and we had to lim between the claimed players, i was already maintaining i thought both Bulge/Guerilla were likely town, Delta wasn't a great choice, but Delta softed, and i think he was the best choice of those 3.

[JasonWazza]

And add to the above, that it felt like the only wagon with the ability to actually get to a lim at the time, because there was a bunch of people not around.

[JasonWazza]

Besides, I think you're planting the idea that some inexperienced player would kill Pink, but maybe an experience player such as youserlf would use that in his advantage?
First to plant the idea it was a kill made by an inexperienced player.

Also i will point out, i don't necessarily think it was just a newbie player anymore, and have found a reason that makes sense for anyone to do it, i just don't feel the need to point it out to everyone right now.

[JasonWazza]

I love how your entire post of how i replaced in, can be read as me just being a Townie trying to stop a shit show, but you are just changing that to scum to suit a narrative.

[JasonWazza]

IC-esque mechtalk

For the newbies btw, this is an old name used in the newbie queue in a bygone age.

Inexperience Challenged, Basically a player that you could ask questions about mechanics and stuff to, and they were to answer you truthfully.

The fact that i do the similar thing regardless is just a hold over from having been in that time.

[JasonWazza]

his slot vs Guerilla still isn’t resolved yet

Why are you so sure that one of them is scum?

[JasonWazza]

Well i mean, that wasn't what i was looking for, i don't think this is an attempted PR kill, so that point would be irrelevant.

[JasonWazza]

I see that Bulge is maybe seeing something with Jason as well...

How so, he didn't actually show scum motivation, if anything he actually in several spots showed that I acted contrary to what the scum motivation was.

[JasonWazza]

I think you should read again 1326
He's absolutely SR'ing you.

I read it, it's full of Confirmation Bias and doesn't actually show scum motivation, so again, why are you just trying to run with it?

No one else that read it went for me based on that information, so again why does it make YOU think i am scum.

UNVOTE: Towwl
VOTE: Bazuf

[JasonWazza]

@guerilla, mind joining me for a bit?

[JasonWazza]

Towwl, why do you feel the need to interject here?

[JasonWazza]

Yeah but, why do you need to talk for Bazuf?

Why does Bazuf not have to actually give his reasoning?

Why can i not ask any questions of Bazuf without your interjection?

The irony is, you should know why i'm doing this line of questioning, i've made my position clear in the past, so why is it so important for you to get in the middle?

[JasonWazza]

I love how your entire post of how i replaced in, can be read as me just being a Townie trying to stop a shit show, but you are just changing that to scum to suit a narrative.

I clearly knew i was being scum read, so again, not really a reasonable assumption to make anyway just as a point.

trying to remove my point don't to thinking I'm not being scumread isn't NAI, it's actually extremely indicative.

[JasonWazza]

You getting weirdly defensive and voting me

Defensive?

No i'm on Offense, try again.

But I'd like to hear from other players regarding the Bulge analysis of you...

Everyone has posted, no one acknowledged it, no one voted me, seems most think it's crap all things considered (and it literally is just a conf biased version of me joining the game, and trying to stop players fighting, there is nothing to actually think from it, because again, the motivation is missing)

Also, I’m working on another theory and would really like to hear from other players.

How likely would be for Guerrilla/Bulge to be both scum?

Considering you are saying i am scum, how would this be possible?

[JasonWazza]

I will point out, look at how many lims Bazuf is now trying to push guys.

Mala is his vote
I'm being scum read
Guerilla/Bulge is somehow SvS
He maintains his suspicion on Bat

The one person not named is Towwl, and why would that be?

[JasonWazza]

I'm not pushing any lims, I'm putting things on the table for discussion

Ok so why is Towwl not a choice?

For someone that is literally paranoid of every player, seems weird that you wouldn't consider Towwl at all.

you seem to be forgetting that the post was from Bulge and I acknowledged it... so there's two players there...

You realize that there are more people in the town, and literally no one else acknowledged it right?

So let's stop with the BS, why is it so convincing to YOU?

I'm not asking the question again btw, one more chance.

It's more relevant what you think of me, so let's go down that road...

Also just want to point out how your allowed to put people on the table, but if i question your motivation, that's irrelevant, how exactly does that work?

[JasonWazza]

Someone didn't get convinced by the post they are saying they did and can't show how it was convincing.

[JasonWazza]

@Towwl; Still think this is worth blocking for?

[JasonWazza]

The irony of things is this, for Bazuf to think that Guerilla/Bulge are kill options, he has to think i am town, because i'm the main proponent of this thinking.

None of Bazuf's thinking actually makes sense in context, hence why he is having such a rough time explaining and why he posts shit like this.

It's more relevant what you think of me, so let's go down that road...

Because he can't explain his motivations clearly, Town would be able to explain their own thinking, and wouldn't need someone to point out all the contradictions to them, for them to be able to fix their thinking.

[JasonWazza]

Then maybe stop voting Mala and use your vote in a useful spot?

[JasonWazza]

Fuck sake, Mala do you mind giving us your info, i think town may just be fucked otherwise.

[JasonWazza]

.

Do you not have info?

[JasonWazza]

why would i have info?????

Because everyone in the game but us is soft claiming and scum just hammered?

[JasonWazza]

So your not a tracker and we are C?

[JasonWazza]

No offense, not sure tonight is as super simple as you think.

[JasonWazza]

Eager to lim you?

I was trying to pressure you, I didn't expect a lim to happen.

[JasonWazza]

Oh i guess that means i can probably stop the theatrics.

[JasonWazza]

I guess quick night is the go then

[JasonWazza]

I mean, your acting like we are gonna get anything out of that Guerilla.

[JasonWazza]

I'm just gonna be open and admit, not sure if we should just push the lim through quickly and not discuss things to give Scum less info for their shot, or to actually discuss stuff today so that we get more info off the NK (but also give scum more info to make the NK).

Would like an opinion from you 3 regarding this.

[JasonWazza]

If the scumteam is Bulge/Mala we're screwed anyway.

Why specifically Bulge/Mala?

Seems weird to not even consider me.

[JasonWazza]

"give scum less info for their shot" in a 57 page game lol why are u bullshitting rn

I don't think scum have a huge amount of info for taking us into a 3P LYLO.

Oh i guess that means i can probably stop the theatrics.

what did you mean by this?

Oh so Bulge is just scum, this should be obvious if you aren't scum. (Note, i refuse to answer this if it only comes from Bulge/Bat, i will answer if Mala/Guerilla requests it.)

you also need to explain how tf you missed this. and didn't once consider that bazuf and towwl might have been masons? or that bazuf had an inno? just a full-on push against bazuf while you plugged your ears at the possibility he was a pr? nah i don't buy it for a second, ESPECIALLY after 1366.

Towwl side didn't make sense in my mind as a Mason pair (IE: Check Towwls ISO), but more sense as a Scum Pair, and i don't see why Bazuf Cop would ever check Towwl considering he actually always seemed to be TRing him for no reason.

Not to mention, if it were Mason's i wouldn't be able to convince Towwl to pressure vote him right?

say more about this? why wouldn't the d1 wagon be worth analyzing?

Deadline crunch wagon's don't tell you a lot, Delta, myself and Guerilla are all votes that don't really say a lot.

Besides, I think you're planting the idea that some inexperienced player would kill Pink, but maybe an experience player such as youserlf would use that in his advantage?
First to plant the idea it was a kill made by an inexperienced player.

Also i will point out, i don't necessarily think it was just a newbie player anymore, and have found a reason that makes sense for anyone to do it, i just don't feel the need to point it out to everyone right now.

the time to point it out to everyone is now!

If Delta flips red, cop on Mafiabat. If green, cop on me

Player strength, and the above

Well i mean, that wasn't what i was looking for, i don't think this is an attempted PR kill, so that point would be irrelevant.

why not?

You think Pink was a PR?

@guerilla, mind joining me for a bit?

at this point your were getting defensive towards bazuf, why get guerilla to hop on? looks opportunistic to me as guerilla was questioning bazuf at the time.

I wasn't defensive, and clearly I was looking to pressure Bazuf into actually give answers.

Towwl, why do you feel the need to interject here?

Yeah but, why do you need to talk for Bazuf?

Why does Bazuf not have to actually give his reasoning?

Why can i not ask any questions of Bazuf without your interjection?

The irony is, you should know why i'm doing this line of questioning, i've made my position clear in the past, so why is it so important for you to get in the middle?

explain your frustration here

Did you read the game?

Like actually did you read the game?

[JasonWazza]

Oh that was still in there, but ask it if you don't think you can answer it, I don't want to have to answer it if a Townie doesn't request it, and i suspect that Mala will know the answer if i'm being honest because of how it played out.

[JasonWazza]

So did you need the answer, or do the theatrics I was doing make sense?

[JasonWazza]

"give scum less info for their shot" in a 57 page game lol why are u bullshitting rn

I don't think scum have a huge amount of info for taking us into a 3P LYLO.

what info does scum need??

Me and Mala are black boxes of reads for the moment (me because my scum reads are dead), obviously that isn't going to last, and it doesn't allow scum to kill in their benefit

Oh i guess that means i can probably stop the theatrics.

what did you mean by this?

Oh so Bulge is just scum, this should be obvious if you aren't scum. (Note, i refuse to answer this if it only comes from Bulge/Bat, i will answer if Mala/Guerilla requests it.)

?????

Point stands, i'm not explaining it to you if it's not needed.

Well i mean, that wasn't what i was looking for, i don't think this is an attempted PR kill, so that point would be irrelevant.

why not?

You think Pink was a PR?

answer the question

I did, i don't think Pink was a PR, and i didn't think it was that hard to tell based on the things Pink was doing, and given the setup we are likely in, Scum would be in the same place on that.

@guerilla, mind joining me for a bit?

at this point your were getting defensive towards bazuf, why get guerilla to hop on? looks opportunistic to me as guerilla was questioning bazuf at the time.

I wasn't defensive, and clearly I was looking to pressure Bazuf into actually give answers.

you were mad that bazuf was buying my theory, even tho it was "crap" and didnt show any scum motivation right?

Well it literally didn't, and the fact that he said it convinced him, but wasn't willing to point out what had convinced him is scummy no?

Like seriously, i wasn't even the only one thinking that was suspect.

Towwl, why do you feel the need to interject here?

Yeah but, why do you need to talk for Bazuf?

Why does Bazuf not have to actually give his reasoning?

Why can i not ask any questions of Bazuf without your interjection?

The irony is, you should know why i'm doing this line of questioning, i've made my position clear in the past, so why is it so important for you to get in the middle?

explain your frustration here

Did you read the game?

Like actually did you read the game?

another dodge lol

cmon those were easy questions and you straight up refused to answer 3 of them?

Why does Jason not have to actually give his reasoning?

Alright, i'll get past me to give my reasoning.

Can you help us out with who you actually scumread then, Jason?

I know one is Towwl, but who would you have down as a partner?

Be great if it was Pink

I was thinking it was Towwl/Bazuf with Black being a huge long shot as the extra replacement for Bazuf.

Didn't answer my first question sorry - Do you scumread Pink at present? What about when I flip town?

Scum read on Pink would be dependant on your flip yeah, if you flip town, Pink is definitely that second spot.

Reminder, i'm going from a starting point of Towwl/Bazuf with a third as Black

[JasonWazza]

So did you need the answer, or do the theatrics I was doing make sense?

I'm not sure I'd call it theatrics. Maybe I misunderstood then. Though you can wait until Mala chimes in if you don't wanna explain yet.

Alright i'll explain it then, don't want it to be confused, and if it's unclear for both you and Bulge, then clearly it wasn't as obvious as i thought, will do it in a fresh post though.

[JasonWazza]

not even close to a proper answer, try again.

did you read the bottom of 1366?

Yeah, scum trying to not consider their partner, why exactly am i supposed to assume PR of my scum read?

[JasonWazza]

At the end of the day I'm ok being limmed today.

I don't like this at all. I find it very hard to believe that you, Guerilla, and Bulge are all VT. I'm torn between wanting Bulge or Bazuf out now.

So after this post (and i only actually noticed what happened after the hammer) we have an issue, this is the game state of Player

Bulge - Claimed VT
Guerilla - Claimed VT
Towwl - Soft Claimed VT (the above is calling out that there is too many VT claims)
Bazuf - Soft Claimed VT (OK with death as we have gone over)
Bat - Scum from hammer
JasonWazza - I'm a VT
Mala - unclaimed.

So in my mind, Mala is a PR and we are in C, and even better, this comes with Mala tunneling Bat, so odds are Mala cop with Bat Guilty, if that is the case, i am trying to get Mala to claim that guilty so everything is unambiguous, once Mala says that they don't have info, i as a VT see a Jailkeeper about to be shot dead tonight, so i need to play backup, that's why i tried to bluff that i was thinking that Mala was a Tracker with a guilty on Bat, and that i was the Jailkeeper, to try and spare Mala from being shot, because as far as i could tell, Bazuf was likely a VT.

[JasonWazza]

"give scum less info for their shot" in a 57 page game lol why are u bullshitting rn

I don't think scum have a huge amount of info for taking us into a 3P LYLO.

what info does scum need??

Me and Mala are black boxes of reads for the moment (me because my scum reads are dead), obviously that isn't going to last, and it doesn't allow scum to kill in their benefit

possible tmi here? does jason know there isnt a doctor? bc obviously scum knows they have to kill the doctor or they have a conftown in 3p or they have to cc. but if jason knows we're in column c from his pov townie reads are the only thing dictating tonights nk

it's not TMI, last night makes it obvious there is no doctor, or i guess that i or Mala is scum, i just don't believe the latter.

[JasonWazza]

I almost want to vote Bulge today, like seriously, how can you look at this and think TMI when i'm sitting in a position where i know my own role and think Mala is town.

[JasonWazza]

I knew Bazuf was a PR?

Your gonna have to justify that one.

[JasonWazza]

Guerilla, can i get your take, am i being dumb and tunneling, or are these arguments stupid?

[JasonWazza]

and just to be clear Bulge, i think your giving away your TMI, in that you worked out that Bazuf was cop, and that's why the insta-hammer happened, whereas i had no clue and thought Mala was a PR based on it.

[JasonWazza]

Mala reads as town, and i don't see that hammer occurring due to Mala scum. (i'm not super obvious that i'm a VT when that hammer occurs, so the scum team of Mala/Bat actually has to question hammering that.)

[JasonWazza]

Also can i just point out that the hammer occurred at this time, how exactly do we have proof you weren't near the game thread?

[JasonWazza]

even more outrageous given the fact that whether or not youre scum, yesterday's mislim was on you

how so?

I mean i did orchestrate putting Bazuf at E-1.

[JasonWazza]

I mean, it doesn't really make sense for me to be so blatant as scum does it?

I feel like if i was scum, i could have held off for a natural vote, because Bazuf looks scummy as fuck.

[JasonWazza]

Also wait, can i just get something right.

You think Jason!Scum noticed that Bazuf was a cop with an innocent on Towwl, and was actually threatened by this?

[JasonWazza]

Also wait, can i just get something right.

You think Jason!Scum noticed that Bazuf was a cop with an innocent on Towwl, and was actually threatened by this?

Here's my take on this.

Jason!scum pins Bazuf as a cop with an innocent on Towwl, i run Bazuf up naturally, get intent and make Bazuf claimed, so there is no ambiguity as to why he dies at night, and get free reign to freely change all my reads based on game state.

And Bulge now has to explain why if i am scum, why do i do the bit with Mala? (Especially if I think this claim is obvious enough that it's free to see.)

The shit i did with Mala is just nonsense if i already have a reason to not be in trouble for the quick hammer (in that it was apparently according to Bulge, obvious).

[JasonWazza]

Also for the above, Bulge also said that Mason's is possible, why do i request possible Mason's to vote a Confirmed town?

That's just dumb.

[JasonWazza]

and for the me being TMI stuff, what you have to realize, is that the kill went through last night, and scum if in A, shouldn't know if it's me or Mala as a doctor, and can't safely shoot Towwl.

Obviously this doesn't work if scum is in {Mala, Jason} but i already know i'm town, and i think Mala is town, and with no real reason to doubt this, we have to be in C.

If we are in A, you can't shoot Towwl as scum, you shoot me or Mala (or else you give away that me or Mala is scum).

I know Mala knows the above because Mala isn't stupid, so based on that logic, we have to be in C.

If we are in A, and Mala claims Doctor, then Bulge has to be 100% Scum.

[JasonWazza]

If we are in A, and Mala claims Doctor, then Bulge has to be 100% Scum.

Should tack to the end of this "In my mind"

[JasonWazza]

I think you're clever enough to understand that and why I'm not mentioning towwl at all...

Also bulge, just curious, why are you so set on me, when Mala actually makes a lot of sense for your thinking?

Since Mala was present, and also actually saw the claim.

[JasonWazza]

Guerilla, i don't think me and Mala would do the fake claim back and forth at end of day if we were both scum.

No real point, we probably just both shut our mouths and let day end (since in this world, Bat is Town).

[JasonWazza]

I mean i can see Bulge, you'd have to convince me on Mala.

I also feel like Bulge is just trying to stop the lim from being Bat, which would make Bat/Bulge make more sense.

[JasonWazza]

Mala, are you a doctor or nah?

[JasonWazza]

Pinging your notifications

[JasonWazza]

Mala because she's here once per equinox and because that PoE up there. That's basically it. It would require me to believe Bat is town.

I actually just relooked at the interactions, post hammer, and i don't know if i buy Mala/Bat, Bat's follow up with this post

funny you should say that...

After what Mala posted seems... weird? (that said it is really weird that Mala turned up literally right after the hammer.)

And almost makes this post from Bulge sound worse.

now thats a stretch lol

youre saying i was active lurking, waiting for e-1 and told my buddy mafiabat to quickhammer?

i was no where near the game thread when the hammer happened

Because that might be telling half the truth

[JasonWazza]

So we lim between {Guerilla & Bluge} the game is over

I'ma be honest, just re-read a decent chunk of D2, and i think it has a lot of Bulge/Bat Equity, I can't really see Guerilla/Bat, do you have anything that makes it look like Guerilla/Bat over Bulge/Bat?

[JasonWazza]

I mean I'd like a response from Bulge first before i vote.

[JasonWazza]

Will say, did a Bat/Mala ISO, and now i feel like i need to do a Mala Meta dive, because that ISO doesn't feel great, but i don't recall Mala being a Bus driver in general (at least not to the scale it's used here).

Though that probably happens during the night phase, because i can't really do that right now, and i don't think it's super relevant to today.

[JasonWazza]

Mala i want to hear from Bulge first, i can't help it that Bulge isn't posting.

Though it does make me feel like Bulge is stalling.

[JasonWazza]

VOTE: MafiaBat

[JasonWazza]

ok i've done a little rereading and one scenario makes a whole lot more sense than the other

And yet you do nothing with this post?

[JasonWazza]

So we lim between {Guerilla & Bluge} the game is over

I'ma be honest, just re-read a decent chunk of D2, and i think it has a lot of Bulge/Bat Equity, I can't really see Guerilla/Bat, do you have anything that makes it look like Guerilla/Bat over Bulge/Bat?

why would i come into d3 gunning for jason and stirring the pot instead of just laying low and bussing my partner who just hammered a cop w no claim? esp when i had hardly posted this game

And bulge, can i get you to explain to me why you think scum you wouldn't come into D3 trying to gun onto not your partner?

This just seems like a really dumb premise and sounds like it's really short sighted.

[JasonWazza]

for instance, now ive learned you have come into f3 still tunneled on me.

Tunneled on you?

I asked you a question, if anything this actually makes me more concerned about you again, considering your taking it as tunneling.

As a note, I just don't think there is much I can ask Mala that would actually give me information as to whether they are scum or not, so I'm pressing you for information instead.

mafiabat was obviously a lost cause lmao what could any scumpartner do to save that slot? why stick their neck out in that situation? plus mafiabat was doing nothing to save his own slot, you dont think if his scumpartner was trying to defend him they would have coached him to pull his own weight as well, not lurk the day out and ignore questions? bussing is so obviously the play there and the fact you cant see that concerns me, your version of events makes no sense

So the scum partner knew from the outset of the day that Bat was going to do nothing?

Again, I was trying to get you to explain to me why a scum partner wouldn't potentially come into a ELO day gunning at someone that isn't their scum partner, like you did, and why you think this would be a bad play to make as scum.

But apparently your answer is just precognition.

[JasonWazza]

read mala and mafiabat in iso together.

I mean i'll agree that this ISO looks disgusting, but i did a dive on Mala, and Mala auto-tunneling a partner wasn't really a play for Mala, and while Bat's early game wasn't great, people were writing it off as Newb Town enough that this as a bus doesn't look right.

you dont think if his scumpartner was trying to defend him they would have coached him to pull his own weight as well

what do you think a scum pt is for? i believe mafiabat was specifically told not to answer any questions so as to not give up any info

These 2 lines together really rub me the wrong way.

[JasonWazza]

because it would be idiotic not to bus mafiabat in that situation

Also just to be clear, Guerilla was trying to pull us towards Mala/Bulge, so my issue is that it's honestly not that idiotic.

It just seems weird that your only considering Mala today, and only really focused on me yesterday (since I unintentionally setup a hammer), like you thought maybe you could get away with the push on me yesterday, but when that didn't work, Guerilla had to go, and your prepping a change to Mala because F3 and you have to be open for both options.

[JasonWazza]

you dont think if his scumpartner was trying to defend him they would have coached him to pull his own weight as well

what do you think a scum pt is for? i believe mafiabat was specifically told not to answer any questions so as to not give up any info

These 2 lines together really rub me the wrong way.

huh???? read em again.
if partner defending, then tell mafiabat to defend self as well.
if partner bussing, then tell mafiabat to lurk.

Yeah and your trying to line this up like it's not possible that you did coach, Bat was unreceptive, and you were stuck in a bad spot.

Again a lot of your stuff basically assumes that you could predict how Bat was going to play it out, and you couldn't predict that from the start of day.

[JasonWazza]

because it would be idiotic not to bus mafiabat in that situation

Also just to be clear, Guerilla was trying to pull us towards Mala/Bulge, so my issue is that it's honestly not that idiotic.

i dont get what youre saying here? guerilla flipped town

My point for that is that if you had tried to push Mala instead of me, you could have potentially gotten a wagon through yesterday not on Bat.

[JasonWazza]

The irony of what your saying is i'm fairly close to actually voting Mala.

[JasonWazza]

I'm trying to just ask questions not antagonize, I just tend to come off in a dickish way.

[JasonWazza]

Why did you not consider Mala at all yesterday?

You had your read on me sure, but as you said, that was also ELO, seems weird to have not considered either Guerilla or Mala the day before now.

[JasonWazza]

why did you hammer bazuf without intent or a claim?

what is your read of jason?

answer both in your next post.

And can i ask, this post feels weird if you were deadset on Bat for D3, is there a reason you'd ask for their read on anyone when it basically amounts to WIFOM from a confirmed slot?

[JasonWazza]

I'm gonna sleep on this, I'm honestly more flip floppy on my vote then I'd like, and that ain't good for an ELO.

[JasonWazza]

i will say now that mafiabat flipped scum i didnt like his rolefishing about me being the doctor either

Rolefishing?

The fuck do you mean, everyone had claimed, and Bulge was making it a point of debate.

[JasonWazza]

You know what, no i'm doing this now.

VOTE: Malakittens

That is a horrible misrepresentation of what was going on and you know it, you just don't want to commit to the vote because your scum.

[JasonWazza]

Mala, explain what I am rolefishing for there exactly.

Because i already explained that from my end, but you seem to be implying that i am rolefishing, when a hammer had been dropped on a PR already.

And why would i need to rolefish when again, i as scum shoot you at night if i suspect you are a PR, and there is nothing you could do.

Like in C that back and forth doesn't make sense from Scum!Jason.

[JasonWazza]

He did know which column we were in

Also just to be clear, do you know how to count?

If there is 1 person left who I think can be a PR, and I'm not a PR, what column are we in?

[JasonWazza]

Wow, you really are phoning it in there aren't you Mala?

Also your reasoning doesn't work when Guerilla exists, who had been town reading me just as hard, if not harder.

[JasonWazza]

Why specifically Bulge/Mala?

Seems weird to not even consider me.

I did, just not out loud. You don't make enough sense with the other three that I'd be willing to bet lylo on it. I wanna think about combinations for a bit though. Maybe it makes sense to lim Bulge here. One of my concerns about a Bulge/Mala team is that if either of us votes for Bat, they can immediately hammer. So I dunno, first lylo in 5 years here.

I'm curious though: you mentioned D2 you had an idea of what the Pink NK was about. Do you still think it holds?

Like seriously, why would i kill this?

He was barely ever even considering me as a possibility, to the point where I was consistently having to ask the question as to why he wasn't.

Your more of a black box, this was an obvious place not to put the kill if it was me.

You just hadn't accounted for me turning the table onto you, which is a sucks to suck moment.

[JasonWazza]

You mention that I do a “backseat” scum game, but no offense that’s incorrect as hell.

I'm sorry, can i get a quote on me saying that, i literally looked to see what you mean, but i can't find what your even referencing here.

And is your argument that I literally lied in doing Meta reads?

Like what would be the point of that?

[JasonWazza]

Also legit I was driving and I’m like thinking WHY would you kill me over guerilla. You wouldn’t? Why? Because my ISO is very shallow and I’m low hanging fruit so I’m an easier mislim rather than guerilla who I know has the capability of arguing against you in A 1v1 had it come to that.

But i can kill either you or Bulge, and not have to deal with a 1v1?

Like my confusion in your BS is why would i as scum not target Bulge for the vote (especially with a kill on you and guerilla alive)?

Not to mention again when you were fishing for whether or not I was a PR I realized bazuf never claimed. It did make sense for yoy to ask me if I was a tracker or even a PR because of how I came into that day, but why would town ever ask that? They wouldn’t.

You realize I have actually explained all of this previously?

Like you really couldn't even be assed ISOing me could you?

You had no clue this would get turned on you, and thought you would have a breezy day of me voting Bulge and you getting to hammer.

[JasonWazza]

I just think it's interesting that you had a "strong" town read on me during the whole entire game, but when it came to EOL you decided to "turn" on that strong read in order to fit your own goals which is to have bulge and I turn on each other. After bulge asked you to stop atoganzing him all of a sudden you postured to turn on me after he mentioned he's willing to vote me.

Pretty sure I outed my vote preference first, but ok (but that's me acknowledging that Bulge hadn't decided on his vote even between the 2 of us yet regardless, hence you know... the game not being over?).

Also, i didn't sit on my reads because me making it to this F3 is weird, and is enough to make me question it, Answer was simple, Mala!scum is trying to take an easy win.

I love how the moment you replaced in you did meta analysis of my scum game and yet forget to add key points. You mention that I do a “backseat” scum game, but no offense that’s incorrect as hell.

in Scum PT's

I wasn't looking into your full scum game, just the PT's to see if your normally the one taking charge as to kills, i don't really think i am calling your scum game a "backseat" style here, just acknowledging that it's possible you weren't the one calling the shots on the kill.

[JasonWazza]

Also wait... 1302 is the moment i replaced in?

You ok Mala, kinda stretching a bit.

[JasonWazza]

Hope you start feeling better Bulge.

[JasonWazza]

Bazuf reads like possibly a Newb PR (though i need to relook for that at a later time).

Note to self: watch out for scum!Jason in future games.

This tends to be Jason in general, good early game intuition, tend to forget my early reads and get too bogged down in analytics which are bad (for me Gut>Analytics), and forget that i had really good reads on things early game.

gg i guess
i'm fucking pissed
bc i should not have been in a f3 when i scum read mafiabat all fucking game
along with jasons blant fishing

To be clear, there wasn't a good pair for me to take to end game in general i think, i figured Guerilla + Bulge/Mala would bite me in the ass hard, so i opted to take out Guerilla and play this day out.

Hadn't planned to go with Mala, but while Bulge didn't say it openly he was showing the feel of swapping and i felt i needed to make the flip even without Mala posting because Bulge was way too town going into the start of D4.

And i will point out, the reason the EoD for D2 read as genuine, is because it was, i would have done that as town, because somehow i wrote off Bazuf as a PR mostly because i didn't understand why he would ever check Towwl (checking top town read as a Cop just doesn't add up to me, but i guess that is a Newb PR for you)

Oh and Jason obviously, great ELo!

One recommendation: reread what flipped town players were saying before dying. If you’re not convinced about something, maybe one of the dead (who are conftown since they already flipped) had something to say about and you can trust them.

I mean honestly, when Mala started Re-litigating stuff that had already been explained, i didn't want to put too much pressure on for fear of actually getting Mala to put the effort in, and i had a feeling that what i had put out there was enough for the Mala vote.

Also again, gonna say sorry to MafiaBat for what happened D2, still feel bad for it because I feel like it ruined the game for you, and I didn't realize that it was that unnecessary.

Reading the Dead Thread is also interesting, and i do want to add one thing.

To add to the information on the N1 Kill, there was also this

If Delta flips red, cop on Mafiabat. If green, cop on me

And Cop was the only threat there was, so it wasn't going to be too big of an issue.