Newbie 2125 - Postgame

[JasonWazza]

UNVOTE:

Hey all, going to go read now

[JasonWazza]

Oh boy that is a read.

Continuing on to the second part of your paragraph. I'm sort of obligated to defend DragonEater if I don't scumread him and he gets put at E-1.

Why do you feel so obligated to defend DragonEater just because they are at E-1?

We have plenty of mislim's and defending someone, even a town read, doesn't make sense as early as you have done it.

Even if you think it's a mislim, wouldn't presenting a counter wagon that is actually on scum be the more useful option?

And as an extra for you KFC, do you actually scum read Delta, or are you doing this vote out of principal?

@Delta, who's your number 2 for scum?

If it's still dragon, who is the scummier of the two?

Imagine you're Egix, you're a Semi Experienced player. You know you're playing with newbies, some of them total newbies. You put a person at E-2, at a range where two newbies could hammer someone this early, either accidentally or not realizing they shouldn't do it this early.

Maybe scum!Egix is counting on that? E-2 isn't "as bad" as E-1, and Egix would have clean hands.

I'm normally a fan of the Vote the E-2 voter, but this followup feels wrong, vote the E-2 doesn't need this explanation alongside it, in fact, it feels like this makes it a thing that comes from scum (overexplaining a simple vote)

55 Feels like a weird post as well, feels very TMI, the reasons are bad, and there feels like there is no progression in their reads from this to 179 and that's really bad given a lot has happened in this area.

I feel like this ends up being a scum slot

VOTE: SzmarzLeek

[JasonWazza]

Leek is town, your reasoning sucks Jason

Ok then let's go over your reasoning, your voting dragon because he fell for your newb trap, and started flailing around a bit, how exactly is that scum over just a Newb falling into a trap you deliberately setup?

Personally i find Dragon Null, mostly because, the flailing doesn't look like scum to me, it looks like a player that got called out for something that rightfully doesn't make sense, and wasn't experienced enough to actually know how to react to it (this isn't a scum tell, it's a player tell).

As for the rest of your "contributions", you've mostly targeted the low content players, that are actively not around, sure they are bound to post/be replaced shortly due to the timing of the times you have gone at them, that's nothing to do with you, that's literally how the activity rules work, and it's not like you were actively giving them anything to respond to.

Hell let's use the Bazuf vote as a starting off point.

VOTE: Bazuf

Not gonna move my vote until I have a townread on this slot.

(My apologies guys, I've been very busy and couldn't find the time to post here).

First, let's just chill for a bit... I've not been lurking, I've just been absent because of RL. Two different things.

At the moment, I’m still thinking Dragon is scum (his town read of Delta so early was weird to me) and KKFC might be scum too for defending him so early in the game.
Everyone else is still kinda null to me.

Also, I liked the comment from Chicago... we do have a lot of time on D-1 to discuss things properly...
I'm hoping to be more active in the next coming days.

These posts are nothing statements from Bazuf, so not like this is anything to townread, yet you moved your vote immediately, the issue here being, it seems like your trying to feign pressure votes, without actually applying pressure, frankly it's weak from someone that is as experienced as yourself.

Not to mention, Bazuf ignoring your vote, Town, Dragon ignoring your vote, Scum

[JasonWazza]

like i said, ya'll are mad I'm not posting walls

Not posting walls is fine, not explaining yourself isn't.

Which even this post isn't really explaining, because your just saying words, that don't actually show how they are the way they are (this doesn't require a wall, it does require more then person is X-alignment).

Also i'm not going to actively address the Leek part until Leek responds, so I'll ask you to pick that up then.

[JasonWazza]

Regarding my lack of progression - I have to disagree here. I have a perfect progression. Look how I changed my mind about KKFC, Camel and Chicago. I actively change my mind when circumstances are changing. Lack of KKFC's activity was sus for me. Then they activated in a great way and I deemed they towny.

My issue is more on the feeling of a lack of any seeming progression on BB/Delta, especially when their town reasons were frankly a bit meh, but honestly i like your overall response.

UNVOTE: SzmarzLeek
VOTE: BBmolla

I think arguments against BBMolla that they're sus because they vote the least active players is absurd.

Imagine what kind of game is the easiest one to play for scum. Is it easier to play like eg. Delta or Bazuf? Is to easier to incentivize stuff or lurk and let it happen?

That's why I support BB and I think they present legit scum hunting. They keep trying to activate these players.

Remember - scum starts the game with unlimited information, town plays with tremendously low information.

BB wants the town to have more information, by how they push the inactives and demand/ask they post more. That's exactly what I did with KKFC. Town having more information is always a positive thing for town.

I mean, BB really isn't trying to activate them at all, the stuff on Dragon was a newb trap, Bazuf was a vote with no substance and a removal with no substance (and again, activity rules mean Bazuf was bound to post) the vote on Egix was another play on the activity issue, and Egix was replaced by me, and frankly, BB isn't really trying to interact with me, mostly just tried to discredit my vote before we got a response from you regarding it

BB is basically an inactive slot that is basically voting and then once a player is forced to post, unvoting and moving the vote on, this isn't getting more information, this is how you try and stall while looking active.

And BB is also refusing to give reasoning and just pretending that it's to do with avoiding wall posting, rather then just expecting more then a singular word describing a player, and then the alignment BB "thinks" they are.

[JasonWazza]

Why did you jump to “your lack of explanation makes you scum” instead of asking me questions you wanted clarifying?

Because i find the best way to get responses is with my vote, which funnily enough you have done in spades all because i voted.

Your voting me cause I don’t have enough posts and you hate my townreads, your vote is bad and you should feel bad

Interesting, can i see where i said this, because i didn't say this at all.

Your reads are bad

Interesting this, considering i haven't actually given my reads, and instead was taking a pass at a couple of players who have been mostly sitting in the background (leek was semi-scumhunting, but there was an air of doing fuck all, so i wanted to actually press and see, and you haven't actually been doing shit), can you explain to me how you know my reads when i haven't actually voiced them?


@everyone else: this is probably BB scum, frankly i don't see why they wouldn't just clarify things properly, instead of mostly attacking me as a player based off nothing, as again, i purposefully haven't given my reads out yet.

[JasonWazza]

Continuing on to the second part of your paragraph. I'm sort of obligated to defend DragonEater if I don't scumread him and he gets put at E-1.

Why do you feel so obligated to defend DragonEater just because they are at E-1?

We have plenty of mislim's and defending someone, even a town read, doesn't make sense as early as you have done it.

Even if you think it's a mislim, wouldn't presenting a counter wagon that is actually on scum be the more useful option?

And as an extra for you KFC, do you actually scum read Delta, or are you doing this vote out of principal?

Bringing this to the top since KFC is out of V/LA today, and i'd like to get a response to this.

[JasonWazza]

Because I'm afraid of him flipping green.

Why does that matter?

Again, us misliming doesn't stop the town being able to win, so why is dragon so important to you that he isn't a viable mislim? (which just to be clear, everyone should be a viable mislim, i have no idea why you wouldn't want a specific person limmed right now as town)

I did present a counter wagon.

I mean, yes and no, you voted Bazuf, but i wouldn't really consider that presenting a counter wagon considering that he was at worst lurking, and a vote isn't going to fix that.

If that is the counter wagon your refering to, i wouldn't really call that presented vs the Dragon wagon, as a viable option (if you spend all day voting lurkers, nothing will get done)

I scumread Delta.

So what that Delta has done is actually scum motivated in your mind?

Why can't Delta be town in this scenario, and just think that both you and Dragon are a scum team?

I guess more specifically, I may be completely new to the meta of forum games, but at the time, there were 4 votes on Dragon of which I thought the reasoning for most if not all of them were super tenuous. It's an obvious spot for me to speak out.

No you were defending Dragon post E-1, so sure there was an issue, that was resolved 6 posts later, of Dragon being placed at E-1, that's basically irrelevant to the discussion.

It's not like all of this defense occurred with dragon at E-1 (I would accept that if it were the reasoning) you have been defending Dragon even after they had votes removed.

[JasonWazza]

On a more objective level - it's optimal for town to lim D1, even if it's a mislim. Not limming means that on a semantic level, scum retain total control over the first kill and can guide the narrative from there, but also on a mechanical through a series of mathematics that doesn't feel intuitive means it's significantly more likely for us to find ourselves in a lim-or-lose scenario much easier. An SE with some more experience than I can flesh that out because I can't recall exactly how that works.

Ah, so basically as I understand it, it comes down to a question of confirmed town and semi-confirmed town. In an elo situation with 2 confirmed town and 1 scum, the scum loses. Obviously. In an elo situation with 2 very scummy-looking town and 1 town-looking scum; the scum has a good chance of winning.

Ultimately, the mafia have two objectives - remove town power roles and remove confirmed towns; and town power roles is halfway because town prs can confirm townies or confirm scum. In the hypothetical event of no town elimination during the day, the mafia get to control four kills before elo and they will always choose to eliminate the most townie / most pr-likely candidates. However, if the town gets to choose two of those kills, even if those aren't mafia kills, as long as they eliminate the most scum-looking players, they have a better chance in elo (and so on and so forth).

It's not just this, any kill that scum does is hard to determine for a reason (was someone considered too townie by the town as a whole? was someone considered to be a possible PR? was someone considered to have accurate enough scum reads that they are a threat? the answer to these questions and more, are only available in the Scum PT, or the Scum's minds), whereas we get a lot of information from a lim, because everyone has expressed opinions and taken sides, so once a flip is available, we can look back on these interactions with that knowledge.

[JasonWazza]

There's literally 5 people around KFC

[JasonWazza]

KFC: can i get your reads on the other people in the game, since your not really trying to interact super hard with anyone, surely you have pretty solid reads.

[JasonWazza]

Delta, you feel off to me this game, normally i have a pretty good read on you, but this seems... different.

Is there a reason that would be?

[JasonWazza]

From memory we've played two games together

In the first game you tunnelled me until I claimed tracker as tracker
In our second game you replaced in as scum

I don't know if you have enough of a wide band of experience with me to say you normally have a good read on me tbh

Sure it's not been a lot, but i also had you pegged in I’m the Real Tracker very early, and while yes i was scum, you still oozed town in that game (i just didn't act on it because i was scum.)

Something feels different.

[JasonWazza]

tl;dr KKFC think DragonEater70 isn't scummy and doesn't like the reads of people who do. He has remained very consistent on this fact, though he doesn't really seem to tr DragonEater70 either, it's more of a 'there are more scummy people out there' kind of a thing.
If you're looking for 'true' in the sense of 'reads you agree with', you aren't going to be getting anything from that.

Only scum attempts to gaslight, thus DeltaBreedy is scum. QED.

This is just patently false, town can unintentionally gaslight.

[JasonWazza]

Question CT, why is your vote still on camel?

[JasonWazza]

Interesting this, considering i haven't actually given my reads

you're voting me so your reads are bad

I expect more people to start voting this just FYI, this is scummy as fuck.

[JasonWazza]

So all the lurkers + Delta think it's me/happy. Down to get voted today as long as you guys sheep me once I flip green.

Did you Iso BB like you said you would, if so what are your thoughts?

[JasonWazza]

It wouldn't make sense for scum!KKFC to be defending town!happy and exposing himself like that.

You realize that this is basically what i did as scum in the previous newbie game we played together right?

Scum has every reason to defend town players for town points once flips occur, especially when town is looking like they will push a lim on their own.

[JasonWazza]

Interesting this, considering i haven't actually given my reads

you're voting me so your reads are bad

I expect more people to start voting this just FYI, this is scummy as fuck.

Was really hoping I'd get a townread on someone by waiting on this, but apparently no one cares that BB straight just stripped all content from a post to try and discredit the vote on him.

I expect everyone to now go and actually re-read 262, and then read this again with this post in mind, and tell me how exactly this is the part that BB responds to without acknowledging the rest of the post.

[JasonWazza]

>was really hoping I'd get a townread

As in on someone else, because anyone that cares about scumhunting should have tried to work out why i think this is scummy as fuck.

[JasonWazza]

Ok even if you assume it's a troll post, he literally refused to respond to anything, and then posted

@BBMolla: Jason is making some really good points and I'm starting to see what they're saying. Can you lean into giving us more of a view on why you're doing what you're doing because it does feel like you're actively lurking.

???

I don't know how to answer this, I'm literally answering questions and giving reads. What is Jason saying that makes sense to you that you need addressing?

So i'm sorry, how exactly is that better if it's a troll post?

[JasonWazza]

Also calling my vote OMGUS is weird as fuck, i had 2 people that i didn't have a good handle on (Leek/BB) took a pass at both of them, Leek came off town, BB came off scummy as hell.

Not to mention, the vote on me, is basically a nothing vote as far as i'm concerned (was on Egix for lurking, who replaced out, and then stayed on me for some reason), so i don't see why i'd OMGUS it in the first place?

[JasonWazza]

is basically a nothing vote as far as i'm concerned (was on Egix for lurking, who replaced out, and then stayed on me for some reason)

And hell this is another red flag, unless people can explain why BB is voting me, this should be a concern, since BB is literally parking a vote for...

Your reads are bad

So yeah not a good reason at all.

Happy why are you so intent on defending this?

P-Edit: Oh so your defending this because you think this is the same as you in that game... noted.

[JasonWazza]

So wait I'm confused, why are you voting me?

[JasonWazza]

how bad of the wording in #432 makes me think your post was bad, makes you look scummy, I'm voting the scummy here

So I'm confused though, are you saying it's bad to try and get a Town read on another player, by allowing time to pass and see if someone else sees what i see and therefore is actively scumhunting?

[JasonWazza]

how bad of the wording in #432 makes me think your post was bad, makes you look scummy, I'm voting the scummy here

So I'm confused though, are you saying it's bad to try and get a Town read on another player, by allowing time to pass and see if someone else sees what i see and therefore is actively scumhunting?

I'm saying it's really bad to ask for a townread imo
-iamveryangry

and again this is you misreading.

Was really hoping I'd get a townread on someone by waiting on this

I was hoping i would be able to town read someone ELSE based off of seeing said person actively scumhunting.

[JasonWazza]

I get the sense that happy is now wilfully misunderstanding you.

I mean put simply, i think that would be a really odd hill to die on, don't you?

Also since you are here, can i get your thoughts on if you think KFC or BB is more likely scum in your mind?

[JasonWazza]

Camel, can we get an updated readslist from you?

[JasonWazza]

And since i should probably commit to my reads at some point, no ordering is present outside of the groupings

Town:
Delta
Leek

Lean Town:
Bazuf
Camel

Null:
CT
Happy

Lean Scum:
KFC

Scum:
BB

[JasonWazza]

I think our readlists mostly align at this point, if you were to bump CT up a notch, Bazuf down a notch and Happy into lean scum.

Most of these are fair, just curious though with the Happy read, is this based on the slot itself, or mostly partner equity?

[JasonWazza]

I mean I'll also point out, I haven't seen much great reasoning for Camel votes so I do think it's a good thing to have those 2 actually case based on all the information we have to see if they have enough to not be elsewhere.

[JasonWazza]

And it feels like both Leek and CT kinda suffer with Sticky Vote syndrome, and don't actively use their vote, and mostly just let it hit something and stick till it falls off.

[JasonWazza]

Oh boy this is gonna be the dragon/KKFC situation all over again where I'm dragon and delta is KKFC.

I'm confused, why do you think this is similar to that?

[JasonWazza]

Just did a count of where it feels like votes are going to parcel out, and i don't think i'm getting the BB lim i want in any world.

UNVOTE: BBmolla
VOTE: iamveryhappy

This is E-1

[JasonWazza]

Delta, you asked me why I suspect Camel.

90% of their activity consists of:
- answering the questions
- when it's not answering it's describing the game (like a narrator) and repeating after others
- noticeable lack of hard statements, cases of "this could be scum but this could also be town" posting

And why is this scum specifically?

My issue with your push is its lacking active pressure, and is more an occasional mention.

[JasonWazza]

Reactive gameplay is easier for scum than an active one. Eg. you and Delta come in, ask questions, pressure, make a case. Camel isn't the one to make cases, they even said "i can't come up with questions". Scum also avoids hard statements because they:
1. don't want to slip their knowledge about alignments
2. don't want to make wrong connotations with their partner

Just want to say this, no it fucking isn't.

being Reactive means relinquishing control of the towns decisions, and for a scum member means you don't actually get to control the game and whether you win or not (bad town play wins you the game, good town play loses you the game).

Being active is a goldmine for good scum players, because you basically control every decision the town makes, to get the outcome you want.

And to be clear, Reactive or Active is a Player trait, not an Alignment trait, some players are naturally reactive, some players are naturally active.

[JasonWazza]

For post 517 here is my thoughts on these specific posts you picked.

257 doesn't get town points, because this is after consistent pestering to force this to actually occur, you don't get town points for being forced to post a readlist with proper explanations.
258 isn't a town post because it's a blatant misrepresentation of the scenario (it assumes i am immediately assuming he is scum, which i wasn't i was taking a pass at 2 players that i didn't have a lot on.)
189 is the same issue i've been pointing out, in that BB is deliberately targeting inactives that are about to post either way, you can ask this question without a vote, and keep using your vote for more useful things then just to be placed on an inactive player.
254 doesn't work anymore because Dragon replaced out, so it wasn't lurking it was a replace out (granted BB didn't know this at the time, but again comes down to the targeting inactives issue again)
406/226 How exactly is calling a person town, a townie thing to do? Scum can call players townie.

[JasonWazza]

I feel like i should just get you to read some of my Scum games to get this out of your head, because this reasoning is bad.

Especially when we aren't talking about a Newb player, we are talking about BB.

[JasonWazza]

Here's a question for you;

If Sustained activity + active playstyle = towny, then why wouldn't Scum just have Sustained Activity and an Active Playstyle?

It's not like either of these things are actually hard to do (again this argument that your going to slip or whatever is a weird one, because it's really hard to actually let knowledge slip).

[JasonWazza]

I feel like i should just get you to read some of my Scum games to get this out of your head, because this reasoning is bad.

Especially when we aren't talking about a Newb player, we are talking about BB.

Where have you seen my play before that you seem to be referencing?

I'm not referencing your play, i'm saying your not a newb, and that Leek's reasoning is basically for Newb Scum, and there is no way you can reasonably think that this is what i am doing.

depending on how standard jason and delta's "if you don't robot post like us you are scum" is playstyle-wise, it might PoE out that CT is scum?

We both have Leek as town, we are just trying to get him out of this stupid mindset, the fuck do you mean we expect robot-posting?

I feel like most of what's happening deltabreedy and jason being like "you're not fitting into the town-box I've invented in my head about what town SHOULD do so you're scum"

Like this is the most reductive bullshit i have heard, if we are doing this, then Leek should be scum, trying to reduce our read to this, is fucking dog shit.

and then kkfc and camel and myself are like "okay but I am town so that box is dumb"

Also the fuck is this, neither me or Delta have Camel as scummy at all either?

@Delta, we really need to do BB first, i don't like how this is looking at all, i'm fine with Happy tomorrow, but BB is misrepresenting everything so bad it ain't funny

UNVOTE: iamveryhappy
VOTE: BBMolla

[JasonWazza]

Here's a question for you;

If Sustained activity + active playstyle = towny, then why wouldn't Scum just have Sustained Activity and an Active Playstyle?

It's not like either of these things are actually hard to do (again this argument that your going to slip or whatever is a weird one, because it's really hard to actually let knowledge slip).

I believe they are hard to do.

Especially deeper analyses. Deeper thoughts. Way more difficult for scum.

"why wouldn't Scum just have Sustained Activity and an Active Playstyle"

Eh, weird argument. Insert any scum indicator (mine or yours) and you can just say "why wouldn't scum just play the opposite"?

It's a matter of what's more challenging and difficult. Always easier for scum to join a wagon then start one and control the town.

When the guy is scummy and makes a case, town starts to think "hmm, I don't really feel like that, I don't share the emotions, something is off" and multiple townies share that, because they're town. That's why scum will be more likely to avoid such situations.

If you have some games to share which deny my point and they're not superlong, feel free to link them after this game, I'll gladly learn.

Ok let's posit for a second that they are hard to do, BB is a veteran, he isn't new, so this sort of argument doesn't work.

Regarding games to show this, unfortunately, due to being active as scum, i do mostly force games to be super long, my 2 returning scum games they are both 55+ pages, and even an iso of me is annoying, because i have 181/191 posts in each game (being 4th and 3rd in respective post count for the game)

My point though is essentially, you are taking a player trait, and saying this determines whether or not someone is scum, someone can do that playstyle as both generally, as being yourself isn't a hard sell as scum, there may be smaller differences, but the thing you have to look for is INTENT, not Style.

Example, BB has a low post style, like Bazuf does, why are they different?

Because BB is consistently dodging questions, misrepresenting reality, and really being non-committal even then, this is scummy.

Bazuf posting isn't this though, Their dragon reasoning has been consistent (even if not good) and they are rightfully calling you out for actually having a Scum-Box as to how scum play, and cannot deviate from, there is consistent reasoning, and they have been commited to their read, and their reasoning is REAL it's not made up, this is a townie style, sure it's low post count, but doesn't mean there isn't content in it.

[JasonWazza]

Also for those that don't understand why BB's representations are so bad, my readslist;

Town:
Delta

Leek

Lean Town:
Bazuf

Camel

Null:
CT
Happy

Lean Scum:
KFC

Scum:
BB

Delta explaining what he think is different.

I think our readlists mostly align at this point, if you were to bump CT up a notch, Bazuf down a notch and Happy into lean scum.

Neither Leek nor Camel are noted by Delta, neither of us are scum reading either of these 2, and pretending we are acting like Town/Scum are acting a certain way is weird, considering we are trying to get our town read on Leek to stop thinking this way.

[JasonWazza]

For me, they make me doubt about their towniness unfortunately... Especially that I played with happy last game. They kept fighting til the very end. I think defending til the end is townier.

That's Happy being night killed, so it's not the same thing.

[JasonWazza]

Sure but that's a PR Happy that is probably being town read to some extent.

VT Happy being scum read in 2120 basically gave up.

[JasonWazza]

Like the fundamental difference is, that is a Happy with actual information, this is a Happy that has nothing concrete to actually give. (This is what i mean by you have to actually look at intent btw.)

[JasonWazza]

So you see how your logic falls apart, right Szmarzleek?

I need there to be appetite for a Molla lim over a shite camel lim before I switch my vote, Jason. My gut says we can definitely achieve a Happy lim today.

Yeah but KFC and BB are both saying they are fine with it, we can switch back if need be, but i think we need to try and gear towards this first, and use Happy as the backup.

[JasonWazza]

Interesting this, considering i haven't actually given my reads

you're voting me so your reads are bad

I expect more people to start voting this just FYI, this is scummy as fuck.

it's literally not, I have a town role pm and you're voting me, your reads are bad, it's that simple lmfao

Isn't that a claim?

You realize VT's have a TOWN role PM right?

[JasonWazza]

Just did a quick reread.

I still don't really like the quick vote on Dragon, but maybe it was reaction bait anyways (and it might have worked).
I think besides that, it's all generally there.

I think it's hard for me to give super objective reads right now because I'm a little paranoid (plus the replacements). I think he knows more than me what is happening in this game but it might just because he's better than me and not because he's scum.

Did a quick check of your ISO and found that your saying this for BB.

Why do you think BB baiting a reaction from Dragon was a Town motivated thing to do?

I don't think picking a random newbie and trying to get them to flail around like BB did is an overly Town thing to do, but it would make more sense as scum.

[JasonWazza]

Happy (Maybe) - Probable Partner

I will say, mostly because of the Dragon part of the slot, i don't think BB/Happy is a possible Team.

[JasonWazza]

VOTE: Camel

See you tomorrow

This is fucking scum, we lim this tomorrow.

[JasonWazza]

VOTE: BBMolla

Hmm, so Delta died. If Jason was scum, he'd probably leave Delta (they had a decent cooperation) and just kill me as the "third" innocent choice. Unless that'd make Jason scum in the eyes of Delta and Jason avoided it. But less likely. More likely is that Jason is town. Bonus points for Jason.

Killing our (mostly) universal town read would make me look like scum to Delta?

I'm confused as to how you figure that.

personally I think it is

Yeah same. Hammered somebody to not have to claim and die. What BB did was kinda irrational for scum if you think about it. Why reveal yourself like that when there was a happy lim on the table? It was after a series of posts of people why didn't want to lim BB d1 (I think Bezuf and Chicago? Will have to check...).

Is it irrational if BB feels like the wagon is going to shift onto himself?

Answer: No scum is making a sacrifice when they are feeling that they have a decent chance of being run up.

[JasonWazza]

UNVOTE: BBmolla

[JasonWazza]

I'd request outting of the partner, 2 basically Innocent Children right now is a good place to be.

[JasonWazza]

I'd request outting of the partner, 2 basically Innocent Children right now is a good place to be.

Oh, yeah, because the Mafia needs two easy targets right now.

You realize it lowers our lim pool, and if fake means 1 person counter's and we win right?

No one should counter until the second Mason is named.

[JasonWazza]

I'd request outting of the partner, 2 basically Innocent Children right now is a good place to be.

Oh, yeah, because the Mafia needs two easy targets right now.

Also you severely underestimate the power of confirmed Town right now.

[JasonWazza]

VOTE: iamveryhappy

Fairly certain it's not happy (as mason), and fairly certain that no matter who it is, this will be a good vote.

[JasonWazza]

You realize it lowers our lim pool, and if fake means 1 person counter's and we win right?

No one should counter until the second Mason is named.

I'm sorry, you're saying that no one should do anything until a second Mason outs themselves right now? You sure that's a good idea? Listen, I'm all for the power of confirmed town, but a lone Mason claim is just as good on D3 (because CC'd means elimination) so the Mason claim does not need to happen now to be fully effective.

You are assuming that we Lim scum today, just FYI.

[JasonWazza]

Not to mention, i feel like the other Mason is fairly obviously KFC

[JasonWazza]

Huh.

That actually explains the Early stuff with Leek a lot.

[JasonWazza]

Happy Leek is already on the wagon

[JasonWazza]

I mean shouldn't Scum then have confirmation that you are a PR from that though, should put a hole into that plan normally.

[JasonWazza]

At least from my preserpective, I feel like it's;

Happy/KFC
Happy/CT
Bazuf/CT

[JasonWazza]

Happy/KKFC would have to be that team I think that's the only way I could make that make sense

Maybe. iamveryhappy being scum doesn't mean it's KKFC for sure, but it's definitely a move in the right direction. I'd like people's thoughts on this before we move forward, though.

Actually does this not feel weird given where we are at?

From your perspective i feel you have to think it's Happy/KFC if it's happy.

What pairing are you giving for Happy that isn't Happy/KFC?

[JasonWazza]

I almost feel like i want to add KFC/CT to the list... i'm gonna have to check that one a bit more.

[JasonWazza]

I almost feel like i want to add KFC/CT to the list... i'm gonna have to check that one a bit more.

Why doesn't KKFC state intent to hammer Happy and instead votes Camel when my wagon starts to build?

I'm fine with this vote honestly. Gonna give IAVH time to claim if he wants. I will say, the BBmolla / Jason interactions are interesting. Egix townread me and his replacement scumreads me, which I think is pretty fair. I've played a decently scummy game so far.

This feels like it was attempting to be an intent to hammer just FYI BB.

I will note i feel like there is a reason i did rule them out, but CT is making me question why i had that one crossed out.

[JasonWazza]

BB do you recall why we have that crossed out?

Because i just checked CT's ISO for it, and i really am confused why it's crossed out, and not highlighted instead.

[JasonWazza]

Spoiler: CT's ISO of things i think make KFC possible

*snip*

KatyKimFanClub

: Mostly nullread, with a slight lean to town, I think. I'm not happy with the shouting match between him and Deltabreedy, but at this point, I've come to believe that its probably TvT. Probably.
*Snip*

So, question for the group - Deltabreedy vs KatyKimFanClub - is this town v. town or scum v. town?

It just feels like throwing shade for the sake of throwing shade, you know? Like how can you even read either Delta or Katy as scummy here? And Chicago never even explains why he suspected Katy in the first place, only that he doesn't like a

later

post (94). Also, is it just me or is he continuing to be extremely indecisive in everything except his tunnel on me? Like why ask town if it's TvT or TvS instead of making up your own mind?

KatyKimFanClub's 94 is where he claims to address his defense of DragonEater70, and it's not great. It's mostly offense against people scumreading DragonEater70; and doesn't address 57

at all

. He's not really interested in interacting, just throwing up a front to justify what seems to be a bad call. I do not like this. Scum? Perhaps.

Deltabreedy, right now, is behaving as either a town trying to scumhunt someone who's shady or a scum who has a townie with a mistake in his sight. Either explanation works, this isn't town-unique behavior; but there's nothing that makes me think he's scum either.

I wouldn't say that this is certainly tvs; no, but I'm more null/slight town-reading Deltabreedy right now and scum-reading KatyKimFanClub. I'm also kind of wondering where DragonEater70 has been for this conversation, I'd like his input as well.

I do, in fact, explain why I scumread KatyKimFanClub in this post. I also go in-depth into what I think of whether tvs or tvt. And I go into what I think of Deltabreedy. And you've quote-mined that to make me sound like I have no opinions of my own.

DragonEater70, are you looking to actually find the scum or justify your vote on me? Because you've got to pick one.

1.02

Votecount 1.02

DragonEater70 (E-1): BBmolla, Deltabreedy, camelCasedSnivy, Bazuf
ChicagoTypewriter (E-2): KatyKimFanClub, Egix96, DragonEater70
Egix96 (1): SzmarzLeek

Not Voting (1): ChicagoTypewriter

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to secure an elimination.

The day deadline is in (expired on 2023-06-27 12:40:45).

Okay, I'm going to just grab this here. It seems to me very, very likely that there's at least one scum in the DragonEater70 wagon at this point. Honestly, that's an assumption on my part and I'm willing to admit it, but what scum wouldn't love to be part of an early Day 1 elimination while not being the one who hammered? And, even without it, there's kind of a consensus that DragonEater70 is a little scummy, because how else would you get to E-1 at this point in the game? Also, I've got nullreads/townreads on most people out of the voting group, so let me focus in a little.

*snip*

Okay, can someone who isn't just going to bury their head in the fucking sand step up and help us all out with what KKFC has said that's true?

Yeah, but you're not going to like it.

44
Dragon's reasoning in 44 is sort of what I'm talking about. I'm not sure there's a reasonable response as town to a page 1 "real vote" OMGUS.

So again, why are you defending Dragon?

Because I thought a lot of the reads against him were somewhat bogus? I feel like my defenses of Dragon speak for themselves no?
Do you seriously think it's Me/Dragon?

The main reason I'm so pressed is because I'm reading Dragon's messages and I genuinely do not see what 4 other people are voting for. ... My defense of Dragon is pointing out that he's not nearly as scummy as he seems because a rereading of his posts shows that a lot of the original wagon pretenses seem to be misread. I don't have to think he's confirmed town or anything to defend him, I just need to think that this vote is worse than other votes we can have today.

Continuing on to the second part of your paragraph. I'm sort of obligated to defend DragonEater if I don't scumread him and he gets put at E-1. I personally wasn't seeing a lot of the reasons for voting Dragon that others were claiming and it also bothered me that people were sheeping those opinions (thus, the comment on collective town hysteria). Yes, there is a lot of "I don't like this" in my previous posts, but hopefully when you understand what I'm doing from my perspective those "don't likes" make more sense. There's a lot about this wagon that doesn't add up to me and I'm trying to poke holes in it before I move on to producing other reads. Why did I do that? I guess because I felt urgently that we needed to talk more about the votes and because Dragon was much less scummy to me than everyone else in the game.

tl;dr KKFC think DragonEater70 isn't scummy and doesn't like the reads of people who do. He has remained very consistent on this fact, though he doesn't really seem to tr DragonEater70 either, it's more of a 'there are more scummy people out there' kind of a thing.
If you're looking for 'true' in the sense of 'reads you agree with', you aren't going to be getting anything from that.

Only scum attempts to gaslight, thus DeltaBreedy is scum. QED.

eyeroll

And only Sith deals in absolutes, thus KatyKimFanClub is scum. QED.

I genuinely don't think you're scum, but I think we have a much better chance of finding the scum if we explored more options. Deltabreedy thinks you might be slightly scummy. Who cares? He's one player, accept it and move on.

And, speaking of moving on - can you discuss BBmolla with me?

What do you think of KKFC's posts today?

Do you see them coming from a mindset of 'I'm town, I want to go out and find scum', or do you see them in another light?

What do you think they are looking to achieve here?

Hah, no. If KKFC is scumhunting he is doing a terrible job of it. His only other scum read is Bazuf, and I don't really see the scumteam being you and Bazuf right now (though weirder things have happened.)

Would I vote KKFC? Maybe. Depends on whether or not I get that ISO of BBmolla.

kk
suprisingly there is like no pressure on me given that you said you sr me

Now. If KKFC gets limmed today and turns scum, on the other hand, it will be a very different story.

We need CT around, they've been gone almost 2 days

Sorry, my attention was slightly diverted, but I'm slightly caught up now.
Currently, I'm actually kind of happy keeping my vote where it is. I'm not saying I don't scumread BBmolla right now, but I'm not sure that's my preferable elimination today. I'd rather eliminate someone who generates the maximum information for us, and that isn't BBmolla. My better picks for elimination is probably iamveryhappy, KKFC, or camelCasedSnivy. I'm going to do an iso of iamveryhappy/DragonEater70 and decide whether or not I'm willing to switch my vote.

Also, BBmolla,

pot

.

This read feels a bit too bouncy for my taste, like they want to Town read KFC because it's their partner, but don't want to rule out the bus.

[JasonWazza]

Leek, i don't think Bazuf/Happy is a consideration right now.

[JasonWazza]

Oops I hit "post" before I gave my general thoughts.

I think I have a slight townread on CT. If they were scum, it would probably be the Bazuf honestly.

VOTE: JasonWazza. I knew something was up.

Is there a reason you didn't ISO Happy? (or actually ISO me for that matter but that's less important)

[JasonWazza]

VOTE: JasonWazza. I knew something was up.

Hmm. I won't admit that isn't tempting, but I think I'll abstain from voting for now. I don't have anything to currently give me a concrete scum read on JasonWazza; and I'm currently debating the pros and cons of putting iamveryhappy up to E-1 to see what happens. But I think it's still a little early in the day for that.

I mean the point i would make is that the mason's are ultimately deciding what we do, being confirmed town and all.

[JasonWazza]

Is there a reason you didn't ISO Happy? (or actually ISO me for that matter but that's less important)

Lunch

That's fair enough, but i'm confused as to why you'd vote me when this is what we have for your perspective;

Bazuf: Slightly scummy
CT: Slightly Townie
JasonWazza: ?
Happy: ? but given 489 and 521 assumedly on the scummy side of things

[JasonWazza]

I'm just going to do this because i feel like it's a bit unfair that i don't think the Newbs have overly realize how this works with 2 Mason's.

Right now we have the 3 types of people in this game;

Masons, you have to rule out 2 people as town (or based on only 1 mislim work out the scum pair), and as long as neither is scum you win.

Vanilla Townies, if you believe you are one of the 2 to be ruled out, you need to make sure the other person ruled out is town, if you aren't one of the 2 to be ruled out, you are a mislim and need to make sure that the other 2 people being picked are both town.

Mafia, You need to have at least 1 member of your team be a part of the 2 people ruled out as town.

[JasonWazza]

For example;

Based on our mason's post 708

Assuming we lim happy right now the following occurs;

Happy flips scum, remaining mislims 1, possible teams;
Happy/KKFC
Happy/CT

Assuming we are accurate, and one of KFC and CT are scum, we win.

Happy flips town, remaining mislims 0, possible teams;
Bazuf/CT
Bazuf/JasonWazza
CT/KKFC

Too many possible teams, this is a potential loss.

This is why BB is trying to lower the amount of possible teams, so that both cases lead us to a win.

[JasonWazza]

I think they sharing their thoughts at this time could be helpful for scum in some way...
They might define a strategy according to the masons opinions..

Just to be clear, scum have no more strategies except just playing day play as best as they can.

Scum have to shoot BB/Leek over the next 2 nights, this is why Mason's is really powerful if neither manages to die D1/N1.

[JasonWazza]

I mean for me I think I'm here at this point;

Town
Bazuf
CT
KFC
Happy
Scum

[JasonWazza]

Bazuf's posting to me feels similar to 2123 in terms of the style, and honestly his play here pings me as just his town game in general.

Note that i also think Happy is the highest (individual) chance to be scum, so Town Bazuf would be the logical opposite of that right now as well.

Also when you posted this one here

1.FINAL

Votecount 1.FINAL

camelCasedSnivy

(E-2):

SzmarzLeek

, ChicagoTypewriter, iamveryhappy, KatyKimFanClub,

BBmolla

iamveryhappy (2): Bazuf,

camelCasedSnivy

BBmolla

(2): JasonWazza,

Deltabreedy

With 9 players alive, it took 5 votes to secure an elimination.

It frankly made me think, what are the chances that if Happy/BB was on the chopping block, that it would be 2 scum/2 mason's on camel here, and i think that is fairly likely.

[JasonWazza]

I do have my finalized list for when requested by the Mason's just FYI (as in path to victory style thing), but i do think it's possible holding it might be slightly better here for the moment.

[JasonWazza]

I mean i'd just point out that it's mostly based on VCA, which we have a lot of here, at least from my perspective (normally VCA isn't quite this damning, but here i feel like it is).

The following VC's will be marked based on my perspective to make it clearer

1.12

Votecount 1.12

iamveryhappy (E-1): Bazuf,

Deltabreedy, camelCasedSnivy, JasonWazza

camelCasedSnivy

(E-2):

SzmarzLeek

, ChicagoTypewriter, iamveryhappy

JasonWazza

(1):

BBmolla

Bazuf (1): KatyKimFanClub

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to secure an elimination.

The day deadline is in (expired on 2023-06-27 12:40:45).

1.FINAL

Votecount 1.FINAL

camelCasedSnivy

(E-2):

SzmarzLeek

, ChicagoTypewriter, iamveryhappy, KatyKimFanClub,

BBmolla

iamveryhappy (2): Bazuf,

camelCasedSnivy

BBmolla

(2):

JasonWazza, Deltabreedy

With 9 players alive, it took 5 votes to secure an elimination.

If you look at these and potentially make Bazuf green as well, this seems like an open and shut VCA case.

Now obviously this has to come from my perspective (or Bazuf's, who could potentially also see this)

[JasonWazza]

That said, the above is why i understand that Bazuf/JasonWazza is probably not an easy one to take off the cards for BB/Leek.

[JasonWazza]

Also a note: Bazuf isn't being written off by me, i just think in the case that Happy flips scum, Bazuf is 100% town.

[JasonWazza]

I mean for me I think I'm here at this point;

Town
Bazuf: 10%
CT: 40%
KFC: 65%
Happy: 85%
Scum

If i had to put actual odds on them (it adds up to 200% because there are 2 scum).

[JasonWazza]

UNVOTE: iamveryhappy

Not before the masons say so.

[JasonWazza]

Yeah it's not at all like you just enabled either KFC to hammer or Happy to selfhammer with that vote.

We are waiting for the Mason's, you jumping the gun here isn't a town move.

[JasonWazza]

Hint: Scum self hammer/quick hammer here is amazingly good, stopping discussion no matter who the scum team is, is in the scum teams benefit (they just have to choose who to sacrifice).

[JasonWazza]

I'm genuinely not sure why you think that we shouldn't put someone at E-1 today.

Also this has nothing to do with E-1, us 5 don't choose who is limmed today, the Mason's (who are confirmed town) decide who is limmed today, we just assist them with that.

[JasonWazza]

In fact i'm posting this now, because it shows exactly what i am thinking here with what CT is doing.

Lim Happy;

IF scum, Trust Bazuf town, Lim {KFC/CT} win game.

IF Town, Lim KFC, If KFC flips Roleblocker Lim Bazuf, If KFC flips Goon Lim CT.

[JasonWazza]

CT is very much trying to add Happy/JasonWazza as a scum team, and the obvious reason for this is that CT scum is in a bad place here, and needs to try and get any team they can added back to the list.

[JasonWazza]

I really don't think you realize the situation that is actually happening, especially given what is likely going on in the mason PT.

[JasonWazza]

Question, did you actually iso me, or is this without an iso?

[JasonWazza]

I'm ready.

[JasonWazza]

Yeah, so I guess we can wait for KKFC thoughts, then Jason, then I can share what myself and BB thought? You fine with that guys?

I mean i think i was already fairly open book on this situation, is there a specific set of thoughts your looking for from me Leek?

[JasonWazza]

I'm about a 60/40 on KFC/CT.

[JasonWazza]

Not at all, unless you/BB have something more significant.

So is BB going to have this turned into a Happy/JasonWazza team if KFC flips green then?

[JasonWazza]

I mean BB/Leek's evidence has to come out before a lim today anyway.

[JasonWazza]

I think Bazuf is town for putting Dragon at E-1 on page 4. Don't think they would bus with Dragon being roleblocker w/ some deterministic losses at that point.

That's not why Bazuf is town, he is town because he continued to be on the slot consistently, even when end of day was arriving and Happy was going to be the lim.

Why did Egix townread me and his replacement not?

Because we are different people, so basically the same reason that anyone has different reads to anyone else.

iavh giving up is meant to get the game into a 3 way lylo wake up sheeple

Or Happy gave up regardless, your argument basically requires that he isn't the type of person to just give up in general.

[JasonWazza]

Actually before we get Leek's thoughts, CT i don't honestly think we have a clean version of what you think, obviously KFC is Choice 1, who is Choice 2?

Because as far as i can tell from what you posted yesterday, it's basically 100% KFC and 0% Bazuf/Jason (at least from my reading of your post 766)

[JasonWazza]

it's basically 100% KFC and 0% Bazuf/Jason (at least from my reading of your post 766)

This is probably a bit of a misrep, but my point is more, we have no idea where your thoughts are, we should get them.

[JasonWazza]

Bazuf has given his thoughts previously. (same with me, hence why i was confused by Leek asking for my thoughts)

[JasonWazza]

Bazuf thoughts;

For me, my scum team is happy/KFC.
So PoE, my townreads are CT/Jason.

If I had to choose my top townread, I'd say Jason.

in what order you'd lim the three other players, Bazuf?

happy -> KKFC -> Chicago

My thoughts;

Lim Happy;

IF scum, Trust Bazuf town, Lim {KFC/CT} win game.

IF Town, Lim KFC, If KFC flips Roleblocker Lim Bazuf, If KFC flips Goon Lim CT.

Note that with the above, the below no longer has a 10% chance on Bazuf.

I mean for me I think I'm here at this point;

Town
Bazuf: 10%
CT: 40%
KFC: 65%
Happy: 85%
Scum

If i had to put actual odds on them (it adds up to 200% because there are 2 scum).

[JasonWazza]

Legitmately how the hell did you get to CT is clear?

[JasonWazza]

That seems to be what they are going with Bazuf.

[JasonWazza]

Best part is, this has to have all come at the end of the day, or the Mason's were basically lying (Town can lie, especially given they are confirmed town) in the main thread all day, because BB had me basically fully ruled out, so I really want to hear what this reasoning is.

I can imagine part of it, i just can't figure how you rule out CT enough to get that it has to be me after KFC.

[JasonWazza]

Why i shouldn't be ruled out regarding happy is me trying to direct the lim off Happy and onto BB (day 1), which i'll grant, but had the Mason's and Scum not immediately chosen to flip Camel, we were likely having to turn back around onto Happy, and had we got a claim from BB we would have immediately limmed Happy that day.

[JasonWazza]

VOTE: KatyKimFanClub

For when Leek thinks they have given enough information, and are ready to proceed.

[JasonWazza]

What the heck Jason? Why would you accuse me of lying?

I swear BB was more convinced to you being scum than KKFC

. Latest messages on mason thread.

For me it was KKFC -> Jason. (lims we should)

For BB it was mostly Jason and then maybe KKFC.

So first point, at this point i consider you and BB one player just by virtue of both your thoughts coming from one slot.

And for second point BB had mostly written me off, at least in thread... ie a lie.

I think the most important thing is convincing KKFC and Bazuf that it's not Chicago.

Dragon even wrote an analysis on Chicago d1. Please check it out.

Yes the Roleblocker bussed the Goon, that's definitely going to be really convincing.

Your arugment falls apart when Dragon wasn't in a position to have CT limmed, I was in a position to have Happy limmed, and Happy in this world is my Roleblocker.

You guys are basically saying I was willing to throw the entire game, but also saying that CT must be town because the Roleblocker called him scum at one point.

Get your head screwed on before you throw this game based on BB's fucking Ego.

[JasonWazza]

On phone so not going to respond to everything, but I've made it clear i think it's about 60/40 between you and KFC, so slightly better then a coin flip, obviously I'm going to question behaviour that i think can lose us the game.

[JasonWazza]

we have absolutely no reason to think that SzmarzLeek is lying about this

Not where i'm pointing out a lie tbh.

Bazuf/CT
Bazuf/JasonWazza
CT/KKFC
Happy/KKFC
Happy/CT

This is sort of what I'm trying to PoE down

BB went from the above to somehow adding JasonWazza/Happy and removing Happy/CT (and JasonWazza/Happy being so high up that he'd have wanted me today even)

So yeah, BB was lying, doesn't matter if he is a Mason, that's actually part of the reason i'm fine with saying he was lying, lying by omission is fine from the Mason's and to be expected, but that one is such a drastic change, that i don't even get to respond to BB directly regarding.

this is only a democracy when it comes to eliminating players. If an argument is good, it is good. If it is bad, it is bad. Why is there this weird obsession otherwise?

Conf-town has more power then not Conf-town in matters of this sort.

JasonWazza, you put iamveryhappy at E-1, true. But here's something I'm going to point out - you did it for a grand total of

11 hours

, between 7:42pm and 6:10am CST. That's not a lot of time and it's during a period of inactivity for a number of players - I personally wasn't even active then. More so, you switch from BBmolla to the iamveryhappy/DragonEater70 wagon claiming that you only did so

because

you weren't going to get the BBmolla lim you want, then you switch out of it

back

to BBmolla

when nothing has changed

, which as far as I'm concerned is troubling suspicious. You may talk the talk, but you haven't exactly walked the full walk.

So first thing i will point out is that Quick Hammers happen, normally this would be when i would direct you to another game showcasing this, but i don't even have to, i just have to point to the end of Day 1, given that is a possibility, why do you think it matters that it was 11 hours?

KFC also gave intent immediately, so it's not like those 11 hours don't matter at all (intent means that hammer's can be basically instant, and i wouldn't have time to change course assuming i am scum).

Also when nothing had changed?

Even just a cursory glance at the post count (488 -> 553) tells me that is a blatant misrepresentation.

And i'll note that what is contained in there is also BB acting EXTREMELY scummy to me and basically misrepresenting several of my arguments. (and hell was the reason that i knew i could move the wagon over to BB, as that set of posts was bad)

But let's talk about you right now. Right now, you have a very simple call to make. Do you think I'm more scummy than KKFC? If the answer is yes, and judging from your frankly absurd reaction to BBmolla, than why not go for me right now? Or is it that you want the KKFC elimination today with the ChicagoTypewriter elimination in the pocket for elo?

No i don't think you are more scummy then KFC, but that said, still close enough to a coin flip between you and KFC (especially with these really random attempts to throw shade at me) that i'm of the opinion that we need both of these lims to get Scum out.

Bazuf? BBmolla? Is JasonWazza's behavior here normal to you, or am I the only one who thinks the reaction here is a little overblown?

Just to be clear, BB is dead, hence why i wish he had brought some of this up yesterday so that i could have responded.

[JasonWazza]

Jason also is way too nervous somehow, like he's afraid of losing the game after going so far

You act like town can't be worried about losing the game.

Well, it's Jason. Judging by their game, Chicago and Bazuf have to be cleared. BB was certain too.

but again, CT is cleared based off Dragon (because reasons?), and i'm not even though my game was trying to have Happy limmed D1, you still haven't actually explained your reasoning or BB's at all.

Instead you have hammered and expect everyone to just accept your reads as gospel?

[JasonWazza]

I played decent I believe. Me and my mason partner survived d1 and n1 + it was the firstly time ever I had a towny role. At least 7/10 play by me for a newbie.

Also not to shit on your parade, you and your Mason buddy decided not to lim the Roleblocker D1, to flash hammer a townie, and have basically sat on your Conf-Town status and done nothing with it, this is not a 7/10 play.

Like if town wins, it's in spite of the Mason's, not because of.

[JasonWazza]

I think you were trying to lim BB more d1. I remember you're conversation with Delta, you said BB has to go first.

Yes because BB was being scummy, to be clear, why do you think him being scummy is excused by him being a Mason?

[JasonWazza]

This isn't bullying, I'm pointing out reality, you haven't actually given us anything to work with for tomorrow, other then your and BB's overall thoughts, we still don't have actual reasoning for any of these thoughts, you can't go giving shit to KFC, and not be willing to take criticism yourself.

[JasonWazza]

I played decent I believe. Me and my mason partner survived d1 and n1 + it was the firstly time ever I had a towny role. At least 7/10 play by me for a newbie.

Also not to shit on your parade, you and your Mason buddy decided not to lim the Roleblocker D1, to flash hammer a townie, and have basically sat on your Conf-Town status and done nothing with it, this is not a 7/10 play.

Like if town wins, it's in spite of the Mason's, not because of.

I am increasing believing you aren't town-aligned. Not, like, in the sense of scum (although we will see on KKFC's flip whether or not that's the case) but more of the fact that your behavior today isn't great. You have not a lot of places to start crowing about how great you are and how great you've played. Your current claim to fame is an 11 hour vote on a mafia Day 1. That's not brag-worthy.

I'm not saying my play this game has been good (it's honestly been meh at best, but this game also kinda stopped being anything interesting at the start of D2 *cough mason's cough*), I'm calling out Leek considering he was shitting on KFC.

[JasonWazza]

All the ad hominem attacks do nothing to further the gamestate, and if you are town, acting like KKFC has already been eliminated and flipped green

today

, on Day 3; instead of properly saving the argument for tomorrow is poor play. You are solving nothing.

I mean if KFC is doing a bit, he stayed committed (and all props to him for that committal), but I tend to expect that after a hammer you get a more often then not truthful flipped player talking.

Also my point wasn't Ad Hominem at all, if you were refering to my bit, I was actually explicitly listing stuff that the Mason's had done.

[JasonWazza]

Like to be clear, for town's sake, Leek should be actually posting the info, so that we aren't going into a potential D4 with just the words of the mason's, and actually have something solid to work off.

And shouldn't have hammered before that was the case but that's a discussion for postgame.

[JasonWazza]

VOTE: KatyKimFanClub

For when Leek thinks they have given enough information, and are ready to proceed.

I expected Leek to actually GIVE information, so yeah i put KFC at E-1, Leek made it sound like they were going to actually give information, and not just overall thoughts

[JasonWazza]

I expected Leek to actually GIVE information, so yeah i put KFC at E-1, Leek made it sound like they were going to actually give information, and not just overall thoughts

So you're whining about how little Leek is doing on the one hand, yet you were perfectly content to leave the day's decision up to his discretion. Do you not see how that comes across as slightly hypocritical?

his the fucking confirmed town, so yes i think he should hold discretion on when the lim happens, how exactly does that make it hypocritical to have expected him to actually provide information?

[JasonWazza]

So this is why i wanted to see the info Leek/BB had collated, because personally I want to hard clear Bazuf, but apparently Leek/BB had something that clears CT, but Leek boiled it down to "Dragon looked at CT at one point" though I can't imagine that is the only reason BB would hard clear CT. (that just seems like too dumb an overall reason)

I still haven't found much that CT/Dragon did to cancel out what would be a team pairing, but maybe I'm just overlooking that Bazuf just hard bussed their partner (should be unlikely, but is possible if Newb scum doesn't realize how powerful and needed the Roleblocker is)

I'm going to have to do a full re-read of this game, because I'm really paranoid that I'm gonna get this one wrong.

[JasonWazza]

I mean I can only talk from Jason Town Perspective here, but with Leek/BB basically hard saying that CT was town, I feel I have to question everything I know (i haven't had the chance to re-read yet though).

It seems somewhat weird for Town!CT to need to talk this out, but Scum!CT would want to keep his options open in case I decide to turn onto Bazuf.

But again, my paranoia is in overdrive because I know I'm town, and I think I need to fully re-analyze this game from the start because of that.

[JasonWazza]

From the scum team perspective, seeing BB making that hammer, they sure have assumed that he was a PR.
Their thinking was “but which PR?”… “What if he’s the cop and there’s a doctor?”.
So, I’m sure they assumed that he was a cop or a Mason, but didn’t want to risk trying to kill him and him being protected by the doctor.
They would get information about his role on D-2 or at worst he would be limmed that day.

For N-1 they had a lot to gain on killing someone else, because it was a sure hit.
If there was a doctor, he could also assume that BB was a PR and protect him (I would have done it).
So they going somewhere else meant hitting a VT or other PR (doctor or other mason).

Just want to respond to this, a doctor should never have protected BB there, because for all intents and purposes that hammer looks like a scum hammer to town, and a PR hammer to scum. (maybe i'm wrong and some people thought BB was a Town PR for that, but common thought would put him as scum over PR.)

@Jason, please take a look at Chicago votes and tell me if you see something strange…

This might sound haha funny but seriously, what votes?

CT is one of those people that just don't vote, and the votes are as follows.

Parked vote on Camel for D1.
Vote and unvote BB start of D2 (i did the same thing so this is kinda a non-issue)
Placed Happy in self-hammer range with a vote.

That's just unironically all the votes.

[JasonWazza]

But Jason was mostly pushing a BB wagon.

Also regarding this part specifically, Happy was always going to be my backup wagon, if BB doesn't quick hammer, and we play that out normally, there is a decent chance Happy gets limmed D1 instead.

[JasonWazza]

Jason asks for thoughts and opinions of other players, but not happy…

I mean that's more due to my opinion of Happy, and the fact that he more or less came off as a troll in the first game i had played with him, to the point where i wouldn't know how to accurately sort him based off of asking him questions. (and you don't always have to ask questions of someone to get a read on them.)

Jason you said that happy was your backup wagon, and that seems a fairly convenient thing for scum to say.
I honestly was not seeing much of a case for a BB wagon and the chances were fairly better for a happy wagon.

I thought BB was scum, not sure exactly what you want me to say here, turned out he just played Mason like a scummy player (at least to me).

And yes there was a better chance at a happy wagon, but i wanted to try and get more information by trying to push a wagon on BB, especially since several players in this game have sticky vote syndrome, and i find it harder to get stuff out of people who keep their vote overly stagnant. (shows less of their actual mindset, and generally speaking, high movement of votes benefits town overall)

List of players that weren't moving votes a lot;
Bazuf
CT
KFC
Leek
and BB to a lesser extent.

Like seriously, you all need to start using your vote more.

[JasonWazza]

Chicago, what do you think?

Also why are you so focused on trying to work out if CT is onboard with Jason!Scum rather then just going based on your read?

Are you worried that CT might end up voting you instead of me?

[JasonWazza]

Interesting. I iso'd you, but that wasn't the impression I got that iamveryhappy was your backup wagon. Could you clarify this?

Just did a count of where it feels like votes are going to parcel out, and i don't think i'm getting the BB lim i want in any world.

UNVOTE: BBmolla
VOTE: iamveryhappy

This is E-1

Start the Happy vote with the above.

*snip*
@Delta, we really need to do BB first, i don't like how this is looking at all, i'm fine with Happy tomorrow, but BB is misrepresenting everything so bad it ain't funny

UNVOTE: iamveryhappy
VOTE: BBMolla

Snipped a lot of context, but this is the change to BB.

After this there it's hard to definitively say where things would have gone had BB not quick-hammered, but unless there was major support in a BB wagon, Happy is my preference for who gets limmed in this case.

I have the same concern about this that you do, this seems to be a rather safe assertion at this stage of the game without much evidence, though that evidence is an E-1 vote; while BBmolla was active and scumreading iamveryhappy, risking a possible hammer (though the vote was withdrawn). Still, all things considered and by that I mean JasonWazza's behavior on Day 3 especially, I'm leaning towards a scum!Jason.

Reminder that said time was 100% time that could have resulted in a Happy hammer, and especially given that BB ended up quick hammering, why is it exactly odd to think this is any less as good as setting up the lim?

I'm not a new player, i know quick-hammers happen, if i was really worried about keeping Happy alive, i wouldn't have put him at E-1.

Also what exactly from my Day 3 is that scummy?

Also why are you so focused on trying to work out if CT is onboard with Jason!Scum rather then just going based on your read?

Are you worried that CT might end up voting you instead of me?

Why do you not want Bazuf and I to discuss things?

Not what i'm saying at all, i'm just going to point out to you that the wording is odd isn't it?

Like Bazuf is more focused on finding out if your agreeable before putting a vote down, which if he is that certain on Jason!scum, there is no need to convince you first, he should just vote.

[JasonWazza]

No, I don't think so, though this might be a playstyle clash. One of my concerns right now is some behavior of yours which is coming across as scummy to me might just be a playstyle variation.

Also as a note, you can always meta me if needed, my wiki is up to date with all the games i've completed since i came back.

[JasonWazza]

You know what, i might regret this call, but i'm going to make it, CT reads more town to me right now, and like he is actively trying to work out who is town and who is scum, whereas Bazuf feels like he is just trying to see who is agreeable, and BB/Leek have made me question my CT read enough that i'm gonna make the call.

VOTE: Bazuf

[JasonWazza]

Well at least i know i made the right call now, all on you CT, ask whatever you think you need.

[JasonWazza]

I mean it comes down to how you have to play, deadline is coming up so there is 2 options on my list.

Try and drum up support for a BB lim.
Support the Happy lim.

If i am scum with a roleblocker partner, the second is just stupidly risky, and yet it's what i did, at least until i thought BB did enough of a scummy thing to actually cause a wagon to be a possiblity.

But if you check Bazuf, there is a new issue, Bazuf is on the wagon, 2 votes, and with how he was lurking D1, he came back to Happy having already been at E-1 and having no real way to change his options and posts the following.

Also, happy is E-1 has come here and gave zero intention on claming or adding anything productive.
I'd be very surprised if town were to chose any other lim at this point...

Personally i don't really read that as a townie being happy that their scum read is being limmed, this reads more like scum having seen what's occured after the fact, and kind of just accepting that they are going to lose their partner.

[JasonWazza]

The scum read was based on VCA, and it's BB/Leek calling you town that made me reconsider, sure i was being a bit obstinate by not looking over the game more, but i figured we had a done deal game, it was only when the Mason's call you town that i really thought that i needed to re-check things, until then i thought it was just a game that got broken by Mason's.

[JasonWazza]

Bazuf's E-1 post is interestingly scummy in nature, the assumption being that a hammer wouldn't occur and thus it being perfectly safe is interesting, and then alongside the theory that Bazuf simply was never active while a good time to pull the vote was there is interesting, but you would think a scum would be a lot more careful about that prospect, especially with a roleblocker partner.

The thing to note here is that Bazuf is still new, might not actually understand how important the Roleblocker actually is.

Okay, but why post it though? Kind of reads like a convincer to me that other people should vote for happy.

How exactly is it convincing people to vote for happy?

Why post it is a weird one, i'd point out that he has to post SOMETHING about happy given the E-1 and what Happy did, maybe he couldn't think of a better more conspicuous way to word it (and it's not like it's possible to notice that early on anyway)

[JasonWazza]

I'm not rushing CT at all just to be clear, he has all the time he needs.

[JasonWazza]

The Masons tought Jason was scum and he got all rilled up about it… funny how things work.

Also regarding this, i'm guessing that it was more a PoE using town clears over actually scum reading me, though we can't really confirm that because they didn't actually tell us properly.

[JasonWazza]

941: Wait is your point that i was trying to protect Happy?

The fuck are you on about?

[JasonWazza]

Just to be clear, me voting is not rushing anything, if anything it's to give who i believe is town more time to analyze from a confirmed nature.

[JasonWazza]

At least from my preserpective, I feel like it's;

Happy/KFC
Happy/CT
Bazuf/CT

I mean for me I think I'm here at this point;

Town
Bazuf
CT
KFC
Happy
Scum

I was pushing Happy the whole time that day to be clear, these are both from BEFORE that post.

[JasonWazza]

I mean for me I think I'm here at this point;

Town
Bazuf: 10%
CT: 40%
KFC: 65%
Happy: 85%
Scum

If i had to put actual odds on them (it adds up to 200% because there are 2 scum).

Hell this is also from before that post.

[JasonWazza]

I was going for happy every time, the unvote was to stop a self-hammer that would stop discussion time early.

[JasonWazza]

Jason trying to prevent a hammer makes sense so stop trying to push that it’s scummy, it isn’t

A hammer gives us less time and means one mason dies before we’re ready

To quote BB.

[JasonWazza]

Well this is my playstyle, I don't see the need to drag an ELO on like you 2 seem to, if I feel I know who scum is, I am going to vote (and to be clear, scum me would also vote at around the same time, I'm not saying this vote timing is actually indicative of anything).

Just to be clear CT, I don't think Scum!Bazuf and Town!Bazuf would be the same here either, one is trying to deceive you, one isn't, and also one can give a Town motivated reasoning for all their actions, and the other can struggle with this fact.

[JasonWazza]

But again, my paranoia is in overdrive because I know I'm town, and I think I need to fully re-analyze this game from the start because of that.

You know what, i might regret this call, but i'm going to make it, CT reads more town to me right now, and like he is actively trying to work out who is town and who is scum, whereas Bazuf feels like he is just trying to see who is agreeable, and BB/Leek have made me question my CT read enough that i'm gonna make the call.

Well this is my playstyle, I don't see the need to drag an ELO on like you 2 seem to, if I feel I know who scum is, I am going to vote (and to be clear, scum me would also vote at around the same time, I'm not saying this vote timing is actually indicative of anything).

Post 1: yesterday, before i had re-read.
Post 2: Knowing there is always a chance i am wrong, and that i might regret voting the wrong way and instantly lose the game.
Post 3: Still the damn truth.

[JasonWazza]

Just to be clear, you guys can complain about my playstyle all you like, it doesn't change my playstyle.

[JasonWazza]

Why would Bazuf put a Roleblocker at E-1 and keep his vote there for the entirety of E-1? Why would Bazuf argue strongly that you were town when there was the almost inevitability of an elo with [CT, Bazuf, JasonWazza] and then turn around and try to make a play for you when you've clearly been scum-reading me the previous day?

Again, E-1 that early basically carries no risk, and keeping it there and lurking ends up being good cover for both mafia members in the case that one of them gets limed.

That play was basically required due to Leek coming out that the Mason's thought it was me, he doesn't have a free stroll into a win because of that, because if he does decide to just go for the vote on you, it potentially backfires if i start reading into CT town, so he has to start gauging who is more likely to vote who, rather then who is scum.

[JasonWazza]

Post 3: Still the damn truth.

Links, plz. Show me the elos where you voted quickly.

OK so this took longer then i thought to even find one game, forgot an annoying quirk in my style in that i tended to be shot a lot as town.

Also a note, this game is from 2013, so yeah... internet was a different place back then.

Day start for the game: viewtopic.php?p=4808307#p4808307
My vote in the game: viewtopic.php?p=4809410#p4809410

This is me voting (wrong) within 12 hours.

[JasonWazza]

So this is why i wanted to see the info Leek/BB had collated, because personally I want to hard clear Bazuf, but apparently Leek/BB had something that clears CT, but Leek boiled it down to "Dragon looked at CT at one point" though I can't imagine that is the only reason BB would hard clear CT. (that just seems like too dumb an overall reason)

I still haven't found much that CT/Dragon did to cancel out what would be a team pairing, but maybe I'm just overlooking that Bazuf just hard bussed their partner (should be unlikely, but is possible if Newb scum doesn't realize how powerful and needed the Roleblocker is)

I'm going to have to do a full re-read of this game, because I'm really paranoid that I'm gonna get this one wrong.

CT please note that THIS is posted before Bazuf even posts.

From this there is no reason for Bazuf to insta-vote, because he needs to check whether he even has the chance to actually get me to vote you (and frankly i play my cards way to close to my chest for that to be a viable strategy anyway)

[JasonWazza]

OK so this took longer then i thought to even find one game, forgot an annoying quirk in my style in that i tended to be shot a lot as town.

You know, it's kind of funny because I found this as well:
viewtopic.php?p=13806060#p13806060

Seems like we have a precedent for you voting early and scum victories. Just saying.

Note the difference in my play in this game to that game though, here I'm not focused on feeling out who is voting where, I'm trying to stream of consciousness because I know I'm the mislim here, and then i make a choice without even trying to feel out which way I'm "meant" to be voting (I'm only looking to vote scum).

That game I'm absolutely feeling out The Bulge, to try and work out where I have to place my vote in order to win the game.

[JasonWazza]

Rant i had pre-typed for after this game;

This is why i think Mason's are a terrible thing in this setup, if you don't randomly hit the Mason's D1/N1 you have to have bussed your partner enough on D1 to be ruled out of the associative's game, but not enough to have actually moved a lim through on them.

And the above is why A3 specifically has such a god awful win rate compared to C3, it's so much harder to remove that associative when the Roleblocker is a possible casualty and you basically just freely give up A2/A1 if a lim goes through.

You can't really ever play A like there are mason's, and that means that you have to play way too safe in general, frankly i played way too aggressive with the possible lim of my VIP partner, and that's why we will win this game (most likely) but that shouldn't be a requirement to have a decent chance to win in this cell.

I think Mason's is just a bad addition to D3 as a rule of thumb.

[JasonWazza]

I don't know how to type in this post game without sounding incredibly salty, so I think I might just keep my opinions to myself.

[JasonWazza]

Jason you had me completely fooled and pulled me off your partner D1.

You absolute beaut well played.

Oh i had thought that there was no chance, and was fully planning on bussing fully, and shooting you thinking that you were playing more conservative (you felt like you were avoiding fights a bit more then normal) because you were a PR

[JasonWazza]

The issue is you can't play around Mason's, and they ruin the fucking game if you don't get rid of them before D2.

[JasonWazza]

I'll also just say that Mason's shouldn't really be in a 9P in general (unless you mitigate the confirm town part of Mason's claiming), but putting it in with Newbies is just asking for trouble.

[JasonWazza]

Also just a note: KFC you played fine, if i was town i absolutely would have been defending you way more, you were so clearly town, but i had to allow this town to have blinders, because apparently they are too stuck in their own exact holes of how people play Mafia.

[JasonWazza]

In fact here are my replace in time thoughts for each slot;

Leek is at least right now, top town read of the town (and should be), and given RB/Goon, there is no way Leek can be dealt with (unless mason's becomes obvious, but i see no real indications of Mason's).

Delta is fairly obviously town, though if he doesn't have a bigger confrontation, it might be in a way that can be exploited, as he does seem slightly more passive, though this might be down to having a PR this game, so it's also possible this is a N1 target.

Bazuf is an issue, as this is how he played his PR game (massive lurkfest) though apparently he is lurky for a reason apparently?

KKFC is a freebie if my partner ever dies, but on his own is pretty easily town.

Camel is the newbie slot, that should probably be read as Newb-town, but has enough off about them that they may slowly move to the scum side.

CT is probably an easy scum read, their reads just don't make sense in general, and seems like nullwashing the townbase, also is scumreading dragon, but didn't actually vote dragon, so another partner possiblity here.

BB is going to be my lim target, as we need BB to be off the board entirely, there is just too many issues with trying to push the other slots, and for scum's sake, BB just needs to go.

[JasonWazza]

I mean when i replaced in, i frankly thought it should be an easy loss for me, because Dragon/Egix was actually fairly obvious, and i couldn't even dispel it properly, because Dragon replaced out on me.

Had i been able to actually interact with dragon a bit, I think this game might have been a bit easier, because it wouldn't have seemed as awkward that i ignored the slot (rightfully so but it still looks bad in the future) but it's not like interacting with said slot was a possibility (this is part of why I'm annoyed that we are acting like I did this on purpose, when it came down to literally what happened because of replacements.)

[JasonWazza]

Hell this is why I gambled so hard on liming happy D1, and gambling the game on Delta being a PR (what actually was intended, BB looking really scummy after didn't mean I didn't want a Happy lim, and was fully intending on committing, again, you have to look at intent properly guys.)

Like in the end, you win on this one, play it again, you end up losing a lot of games, because no one was really looking at intent, and finding actual intent behind things.

[JasonWazza]

Jason, I have to ask... Why did you went for me on ELO?

I was really thinking that you'd vote for Chicago, since I had said before that in this particular scenario I'd probably vote Chicago.
So why did you not went with it?

You were posturing towards voting me somewhat, and I had to make a choice at some point, because I think it's always better to be the first person to choose (scum or town btw, you win or lose by your action, not someone else's.)

And BB/Leek put me into a shit spot by calling out that CT was clearly town, without giving much info, and i assumed that you could read and find how CT was town (i thought it was fairly obvious that CT was town, whereas not so obvious that you were town.)

Not sure I agree about Masons being all that powerful

Here's the issue, they don't play like normal PR's, so PR hunting tends to not find them, and if both survive to D2 the game stops being a standard game of Mafia.

Entering day 2 with 2 living Mason's, turns both Mason's into Innocent children, forcing mafia's shots to be suboptimal, and forces the game into a 3v2, where all the collective town needs to really do, is pick 2 players that are most town, and win the game by keeping them alive, assuming that they are actually town.

I'll also point out that i don't think this works as a newbie game BECAUSE it's not really a game of Mafia, past D2 in these setups, there is very little standard Mafiaesque detective work you can do, because the game is mostly solved.

And how often are Mafia in the top 2 non-PR town reads, after D1 is done, with 2 innocent children being revealed, and a bunch of VCA being possible to be done?

Also note that the benefit of the above is, coin flip puts a Roleblocker on the Mafia side, and forces scum to play super un-optimally, and basically win on VCA alone.

[JasonWazza]

And again I'll point out that i technically played mostly optimally for someone knowing the setup (bussed fairly heavily), and still managed to lose, as an experienced player, imagine putting a full newb into my position.