Newbie 2128 - Manila Noir - Postgame

[SmileyDude1]

Hello everyone,
VOTE: Maduisha
Icebreaker question: How much experience do you guys have in Mafia

This is my 2nd game of forum mafia ever, my main experience outside of that is that I occasionally mod IRL games with family. Before I joined, I was a lurker around these forums before hand so I think I got a decent handle on the lingo around here.

[SmileyDude1]

Back from work, seems like a lot went down while I was gone.

[SmileyDude1]

let's start this game with a side-game of

hot

and

cold

. every other player gets one guess as to who my mason partner is today. It'll work like Guess Who - you can either guess the name, or state an observation as fact. the extremes listed in colour earlier are as specific as i'll get but i'll tell you if your guess is colder or warmer than the previous person's.

MikhailTal's slot is a mason.

Hot

.

Ok, Just now seeing this and can we not pls. This is objectively an anti-town play as you either give scum information about the setup and your partner if trueclaiming, or risk outing PRs if you're fake claiming.

[SmileyDude1]

@ ender I've just come back from a long hiatus. Lots of things confused me after coming back.

Are you saying you're gonna post every other day?

i just mean i will make an effort, despite being on a trip, to post at least once every other day and i can't guarantee more often than that until i'm back to my normal schedule. however, i am fairly likely to have more opportunities to post than once every other day.

Icebreaker question: How much experience do you guys have in Mafia

my experience with online mafia is about 20-something games played on this site from roughly 2009-2016. almost all were the newbie format at the time, which if I remember right, only included VT, cop, doc, mafia goon, and mafia roleblocker as possible roles. so the other roles possible in the current format are new to me.

i also played a good amount of offline mafia around a decade ago, but only with normal roles (VT, cop, doc, and mafia goons).

this is my first mafia game of any sort in roughly 7 years.

let's start this game with a side-game of

hot

and

cold

. every other player gets one guess as to who my mason partner is today. It'll work like Guess Who - you can either guess the name, or state an observation as fact. the extremes listed in colour earlier are as specific as i'll get but i'll tell you if your guess is colder or warmer than the previous person's.

MikhailTal's slot is a mason.

Hot

.

why are you claiming so early?

as far as i can tell there are only a couple of possibilities, but let me know if i've missed anything.
1. you're mafia false-claiming with a gambit to fish for town PRs to counter claim. i guess the motivation here would be to sacrifice yourself early to give your partner an advantage by outing a town power role that can then be night-killed early.
2. you're telling the truth. but this is unhelpful. by claiming now, you've ensured mafia know the exact setup from the very start of the game, which removes any worry they might have had for N1 about being blocked by doc or jailkeep, or identified by cop or tracker. and you've either guaranteed you'll be the N1 kill (because mafia would want to prioritize eliminating a confirmed-town slot and to remove town aligned roles that have the ability to talk privately any time), or you've given mafia the opportunity to potentially get two free kills by picking a random townie to kill N1 and then WIFOM you to death D2 about how come you're still alive as a confirmed-town slot.

neither of those options is helpful for town in any way i can come up with. even if you are confirmed town and don't get night-killed, you don't have any action available to you to gather any additional information. so whatever the case may be, unless you're able to convince me how this is beneficial to town, i'm not going to participate in this fishing expedition to guess your supposed partner.

and i'd encourage everyone to ignore this claim entirely for D1 and see how things go N1, and if anyone is a town power role that conflicts with him being mason please do not counter claim D1, because that will just ensure you're the kill N1 and we lose the benefit of your action.

This pretty much sums my feelings of the Mason situation right now. I agree it's best to ignore this claim unless Mikhail gives good reason to consider otherwise.

[SmileyDude1]

Oooh boy, we got an argument on our hands. This is going to be a pain to sort .

[SmileyDude1]

Upon a quick skim I think I agree with Keria on a lot of the IAVH/Starfire interaction. I think it's reasonable for Starfire to be suspicious of IAVH's push due to logic mentioned in Keria's 52, but I also believe that IAVH is making a genuine push on someone they believe is playing in a scummy manner. The argument didn't move the needle on either of them for me

[SmileyDude1]

My take on Mikhail rn is that the play they made is anti-town, but feels wild to make as scum. I'm disregarding it for now until I get further clarification.

Speaking of which, @MikhailTal what were you trying to accomplish with post 14?

[SmileyDude1]

My current townreads:
Keria- I find myself agreeing with their takes often and I feel like they've consistently acted with intent to solve people
Political Clout- Intent to solve with their questions gives me a towny vibe
-GAP-
Maduisha- Mostly based on vibes

Everyone else is null for me atm. Nothing is pinging me as transparently scummy rn, so i'm hoping that by looking for town we can narrow it down via PoE

With that said UNVOTE: Maduisha

[SmileyDude1]

Where do you guys stand at the moment in terms of reads?

[SmileyDude1]

Not a fan of blanket read lists, especially when focused on townreading. It feels like that information is more useful for scum in NK selection than in scumhunting, and gives scum a way to look active without actually taking risks.

Good point, but it also compels scum to create associations which can be called out should they not make sense and helps with team finding later

[SmileyDude1]

Not a fan of blanket read lists, especially when focused on townreading. It feels like that information is more useful for scum in NK selection than in scumhunting, and gives scum a way to look active without actually taking risks.

Good point, but it also compels scum to create associations which can be called out should they not make sense and helps with team finding later

If its generally felt that the cons outweigh the pros here, i'm fine holding off on it

Ninja'd: I was just trying to progress the gamestate by getting a sense of where everyone is at Starfire. I'm not trying to discredit you, I was looking to engage in discussion to see if that was the best course of action.

[SmileyDude1]

The Ninja was in response to 164, I didn't feel the need to specify since you were the only one who had posted since then

[SmileyDude1]

you shouldn't be "playing as" anything you aren't. play your role. play to win. don't play to confuse.

honestly i'm not even going to keep using the same tired dogmatic line because we all KNOW that i'm right and that people want to think they're soothsayers and pretend mafia can be boiled down to hard rules when all the statistics point to humans not being able to accurately tell when someone's lying whatsoever and the game is completely bereft of hard data points until you engineer them. this quote is actually just espousing that all of the fun in mafia should be murdered for your convenience. 'don't do what you aren't' 'don't play to confuse' alright buddy let's all convert our stances straight to propositional logic then and the first person to make a typo or accidentally leave a flaw in their logic gets the guillotine, is that what you want? i'm playing to win it's just that your idea of winning is so narrow that i need to borrow your brain to follow it so it's unsurprising we're running in to problems here

let's present to you the world you're calling me mafia in: i claim to be mason when from my perspective at best, to you, i have a 1/3 chance of knowing whether masons are in the game or not, and i do it directly enough that everyone thinks i'm claiming mason but apparently not directly enough that it's still expected that i'll try to get out of it by claiming i wasn't claiming mason, according to you. i don't consult my partner and i do it early enough that it's hard to believe we could've planned it. nobody speaks up for me, including the person my slot designated as the prospective partner and i'm at E-1 extremely early in the day when, from your perspective you must still think i haven't UNCLAIMED mason, presumably, since you're so set on me having claimed it to begin with?

what's the mathematical probability a mafia is taking this line as mafia? it seems to me that if anyone's making suggestions as to anyone's skill here it's that you seem to think i'm perhaps not just the worst player of all time but am intentionally throwing the game. so, ender, what i'm trying to say is, you're mafia and you've perspective slipped because you're TMIing that i'm town. hope this helps, everyone!

Spent the majority of the morning trying to parse what occurred since I left, and I think i've come to the following conclusions.

I feel like Mikhail's logic tracks with their actions from earlier. Im still of the opinion that the play did more to hurt town more than help it, but what they did does seem to track with the first quote mentioning non-conventional playstyles. I also agree with the 2nd quote in that the play lacks longevity in a such a manner that I don't see scum doing day1. I'm leaning towards Mikhail being a town playing in an unorthodox matter at the moment. Don't think i'm willing to vote there rn.

Hi
I guess you forced my hand to do it
SKIBIDI BOP I’M COP

I see no reason to not believe this claim rn though I'm miffed that it got outed this early. I feel good conf-towning this slot.

I think I need to take a step back, breathe and reassess the gamestate in light of this. I'll try to be back with new findings (I make no promises though )

[SmileyDude1]

Oof, hopefully the replacements can help clear things up when they get here. I'll have to see if there's any particular questions i'd want them to answer in the meantime

[SmileyDude1]

Update on my reads.

++
IAVH- for reasons already mentioned

+
Alianna- On the basis that I lean town on your predecessor.

-
Political Clout & Maduisha- These are slots i'd like to see more input from.

--

Starfire- In light of IAVH's claim, I want to look more into this slot due to the argument from earlier. Also upon reread, i'm not a fan of 164

VOTE: Starfire, let's see where this leads.

[SmileyDude1]

Update on my reads.

++
IAVH- for reasons already mentioned

+
Alianna- On the basis that I lean town on your predecessor.

-
Political Clout & Maduisha- These are slots i'd like to see more input from.

--
Starfire- In light of IAVH's claim, I want to look more into this slot due to the argument from earlier. Also upon reread, i'm not a fan of 164

VOTE: Starfire, let's see where this leads.

but just because happy claims something doesn't mean a past argument between happy and starfire should be looked at differently like starfire was operating under the same information that you had at the time. I think it's just bad logic to assume because someone claims something another person that was arguing with happy should be looked at closer. iirc several people were on happy not just starfire so why starfire over them?

I mentioned in 82, I found happy/starfire to be null to me at the time due to their being valid points on both sides. Given that I've gained new information relating to that interaction, I think it reasonable to go back and look at it again with new context, not to mention that i'm feeling uneasy about them outside of that.

[SmileyDude1]

I have a couple questions for Starfire in light of rereading their interaction with Starfire from earlier

Maduisha what makes you think the PR claim is not real, but also just a joke? Same goes to Starfire.
MikhailTal what was your motive behind that claim by the way
1. if you are real, you more or less outed your partner by the hotter/colder thing
2. if you are fake but town, someone cc's, you get voted and look bad
3. if you are scum, someone cc's you get voted, gj
The only good things that happen in this is
4. you are fake but town, nobody cc's, you tank the shot, you die
5. you are scum, they believe you
6. you live as real mason
the good moment in 5 is short-lived due to a inevitable cc
6 is really unlikely.
now, you've established that you here are PR hunting and not scumhunting
I wish I could vote you twice.
If this slot survives d1 and lives n1, I'm placing a heavy sr on Tal.
Screw that… Tal instantly gets a heavy sr from me from these two pages.

How's your Mason partner feeling about your gambit? You did discuss it with them (I hope). cough!

it was an intuitive sacrifice and i intend to prove i have sufficient compensation for it.

wow! I realised this post exists!
well nope, I don't believe your partner would let you do that
vote x3 (unofficial)

actually, no
I feel like this is PR baiting instead.
seems like AI more than NAI.

I don't really like how iamveryhappy ramps up suspicion in a series of posts when the situation was otherwise static. What leads this from ''seems alignment indicative'' to ''vote x3 (unofficial)'' Feels like trying to build a wagon more than learning. VOTE: Iamveryhappy

RVS? I thought this was a real scumread, pick one please. Anyway, I'm not sussing you for voting MikhailTal, I'm sussing you for 'growing' that suspicion without any new information available to you.

When reading Happy's post I got the sense that happy hadn't finished reading Mikhail's posts yet and thus wasn't working with full information yet. Why did you assume otherwise?

mmm
keep thinking it's bad play and refuse to acknowledge what I'm going to do soon.

Ominious, but I doubt you'll be around to use the faction NK.

Were you considering the possibility of PR here or did you default to Mafia?

[SmileyDude1]

I have a couple questions for Starfire in light of rereading their interaction with Happy from earlier

Maduisha what makes you think the PR claim is not real, but also just a joke? Same goes to Starfire.
MikhailTal what was your motive behind that claim by the way
1. if you are real, you more or less outed your partner by the hotter/colder thing
2. if you are fake but town, someone cc's, you get voted and look bad
3. if you are scum, someone cc's you get voted, gj
The only good things that happen in this is
4. you are fake but town, nobody cc's, you tank the shot, you die
5. you are scum, they believe you
6. you live as real mason
the good moment in 5 is short-lived due to a inevitable cc
6 is really unlikely.
now, you've established that you here are PR hunting and not scumhunting
I wish I could vote you twice.
If this slot survives d1 and lives n1, I'm placing a heavy sr on Tal.
Screw that… Tal instantly gets a heavy sr from me from these two pages.

How's your Mason partner feeling about your gambit? You did discuss it with them (I hope). cough!

it was an intuitive sacrifice and i intend to prove i have sufficient compensation for it.

wow! I realised this post exists!
well nope, I don't believe your partner would let you do that
vote x3 (unofficial)

actually, no
I feel like this is PR baiting instead.
seems like AI more than NAI.

I don't really like how iamveryhappy ramps up suspicion in a series of posts when the situation was otherwise static. What leads this from ''seems alignment indicative'' to ''vote x3 (unofficial)'' Feels like trying to build a wagon more than learning. VOTE: Iamveryhappy

RVS? I thought this was a real scumread, pick one please. Anyway, I'm not sussing you for voting MikhailTal, I'm sussing you for 'growing' that suspicion without any new information available to you.

When reading Happy's post I got the sense that happy hadn't finished reading Mikhail's posts yet and thus wasn't working with full information yet. Why did you assume otherwise?

mmm
keep thinking it's bad play and refuse to acknowledge what I'm going to do soon.

Ominious, but I doubt you'll be around to use the faction NK.

Were you considering the possibility of PR here or did you default to Mafia?

EBWOP

[SmileyDude1]

sorry, ended up staying out later than i expected last night so i wasn't able to dive in like i wanted.

@ender who are you now looking at as possible scum?

-SNIP
6. SmileyDude1 - light scum lean. the only player (not slot, player) with fewer posts than him this game is Wayward, who only posted on page 1. Raw post count isn't necessarily a tell, but i like to keep an eye out for anyone slipping under the radar. The content of his posts is pretty light as well. he gave a couple of short read lists but he hasn't really gone after anyone other than light prodding of Starfire. he hasn't had to react 'in the moment' to a lot of what has happened so far which makes it easy for him to come in later and react in line with the overall 'town-approved' sentiment.
-SNIP-

Yeah sorry about that guys. I've come down with a cold recently and between that and work I haven't been able to gain as much traction as I wanted. I'm trying to focus my efforts to make myself useful as I don't think I have the energy to attempt to hard sort the Jason/DK interactions. I'd say that on a surface-level I lean towards TvT based on vibes rn. I also think your explanation in 479 feels like reasonable progression, but I am wary of you being experienced enough to fake something like that

[SmileyDude1]

@ender who are you now looking at as possible scum?

-SNIP
6. SmileyDude1 - light scum lean. the only player (not slot, player) with fewer posts than him this game is Wayward, who only posted on page 1. Raw post count isn't necessarily a tell, but i like to keep an eye out for anyone slipping under the radar. The content of his posts is pretty light as well. he gave a couple of short read lists but he hasn't really gone after anyone other than light prodding of Starfire. he hasn't had to react 'in the moment' to a lot of what has happened so far which makes it easy for him to come in later and react in line with the overall 'town-approved' sentiment.
-SNIP-

Yeah sorry about that guys. I've come down with a cold recently and between that and work I haven't been able to gain as much traction as I wanted. I'm trying to focus my efforts to make myself useful as I don't think I have the energy to attempt to hard sort the Jason/DK interactions. I'd say that on a surface-level I lean towards TvT based on vibes rn. I also think your explanation in 479 feels like reasonable progression, but I am wary of you being experienced enough to fake something like that

EBWOP again, ugh

[SmileyDude1]

VOTE COUNT 1.7

TO BE CONTINUED.

---

ender (4):

JasonWazza, Political Clout, Alianna, Maduisha

[E-1]

Starfire (1):

SmileyDude1

DKKoba (1):

Starfire

Maduisha (1):

DKKoba

Not Voting (2):

ender, iamveryhappy

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 to eliminate someone.

Deadline:

(expired on 2023-07-31 15:00:00)

On break right now at work so I have some time here, I'm mobile posting so bear with me.

First, UNVOTE: Starfire

Id still like an answer for the questions in my 482, but I no longer feel that my vote is useful there

[SmileyDude1]

there is a feedback loop of "ender is scummy because I thought ender is scummy" and people should really consider like "oh do my arguments from earlier still hold up?

Second, I agree with this. I've been coming around on the slot lately and as I mentioned earlier I feel like their reasoning for being on the Happy and Mikhail wagons feels like it's a natural progression to me

[SmileyDude1]

Looking at the DK/Jason/PC combination I feel like PC is the most likely scum here. The back and forth between DK and Jason feels like Town tunneling each other based on a playstyle clash and I feel like PC kind of faded out of it.

If there's scum in Koba/Jason I lean towards the latter as I disagree with the origin of the back and forth (IMO, it's fine to provide reads without having read the full game as long as you're willing to change them as you go along like DK has) and I liked both DK and their predecessor

I would prefer pressure on PC, but if we're solving it with Cop check then I'm fine leaving it for today. Let's try an alternative VOTE: Maduisha

[SmileyDude1]

I got to go, but I'll be back later

[SmileyDude1]

PC last interacted with DK with their 434, Jason and DK get into another spat afterwards with them on the sidelines, that doesn't feel right to me given their vote in 376.

Let me be clear i'm not necessarily scumreading PC here. I think given what occurred there's a decent chance that scum may have been involved in that argument, and if that's the case I feel that PC is the least solid of the three.

[SmileyDude1]

Just puked after ingesting some medicine. I'm calling it for today

[SmileyDude1]

PC last interacted with DK with their 434, Jason and DK get into another spat afterwards with them on the sidelines, that doesn't feel right to me given their vote in 376.

Let me be clear i'm not necessarily scumreading PC here. I think given what occurred there's a decent chance that scum may have been involved in that argument, and if that's the case I feel that PC is the least solid of the three.

What do you want me to respond that I missed? because to me all you're saying is PC stopped posting.

My main question would be whether or not your read on Koba has changed since you last interacted with them.

yea ok its probably PC and wazza thats why they are barely interacting here and trying to solve tbh if not wazza and theyre just being loltown its just maduisha. ggwp go next

but surely you recognize the absurdity of your play? you are essentially scum reading the only people you're interacting with...

how is it absurd? what is the relevance lol

you are scum reading the only people interacting with you it seems relevant to me.

from an objective POV, are you claiming that this means it is impossible for you 2 to be mafia?
I didn't know rands worked that they discern the future and look at if DkKoba interacted with only 2 specific players on page 17? lol

I'm suggesting that it feels like you are being annoyed/tunneling heavily onto two players who you are interacting with and not letting your reads evolve, to me from my perspective it looks like you tried to appease jason with a hard town read of him and then when he didn't move off of you you started calling him null and now you are back to calling him a for sure scum with me the progression reads Pavlovian like town read me or else.

and it's impossible for both of us to be mafia since I'm very clearly town.

Cause for me, it'd feel off to hold this stance and then not precede to engage the slot when there were additional opportunities to do so.

Also realized I contracted stomach flu a few days ago. Feeling pretty crap rn, but will try to push forward as best I can

[SmileyDude1]

Want to preface this by saying I hope you're feeling better @ SmileyDude, I feel somewhat bad about pushing you while you're potentially ill.

That said,

I actually really like SmileyDude for scum right now. Discarding EBWOP, availability, and chatting with me about how to approach the game on a broad level, there are about a baker's dozen posts with content and most of these are piggybacking or soft town reading. Smiley's development goes

1. Tal's claim is anti-town but not necessarily scummy
1.5 Agrees with ender re: Tal claim, offering nothing new
2. Agrees with Keria re: me vs IAVH, offering nothing new.
3. Maduisha is below Keria and PC because vibes, all townish.
3.5 Asks for reads
4. Believes IAVH claim.
5. Votes me for 164, a post about how to approach the game at a broad level they previously accepted at face value.
5.5 Asks me a question that is already answered when asked before by JasonWazza (457 I give my answer, 482 Smiley asks again)
6. Jason-DK is TVT
7. PC is scum out of Jason-DK-PC (but not enough to scumread or vote), votes Maduisha (no explanation)

VOTE: SmileyDude1

1&1.5- 235 I would say is a new perspective on the Tal claim, with it also being a minority opinion at the time due to Tal being on E-1.
4- Given Tal had retracted their claim at this point and no one countered happy I saw no reason not to believe it. It's not a fakeclaim that has long-term equity if scum anyways so i'm not worried about it
5- The vote was more motivated by wanting to look at the interactions between you and happy again with the perspective of Happy confTown, with 164 being secondary motivation. I wanted to sort your intentions due to my difficulty in finding SI behavior at this point
5.5- Completely missed that tbh
3&7- My reads on Maduisha and PC in 158 were early day reads which gradually decayed over time as can be seen in my 276, I voted Maduisha for 2 reasons, 1. happy doesn't want PC and i'm willing to abide by confTown here for the time being , 2. I disagreed with the ender wagon and wanted to put up an alternative, Maduisha being a player i've been having trouble getting a read on and my top town read (who apparently seems to have more experience with this player) being on the wagon were bonus points for me.

[SmileyDude1]

My initial instinct upon seeing the night kill and day start points to Starfire for me. A PC green flip makes it easier to push slots like myself and DK who engaged PC during day 1 which, in my eyes, lines up with what Starfire was doing both day 1 and today. Starfire was also one of relatively few players who avoided interacting with PC at all, despite PC being on their case day 1. It's a night kill that would be both useful and hard to trace for Scum!Starfire.

I also have grown more paranoid of the Jason slot upon seeing the night kill. Given the connection between Jason/PC during day 1, I fear that the slot might have killed them in order to make DK look worse.

This is a setup and i'm not going to just let this stand!. VOTE: Starfire should've pursued this harder yesterday, but that's hindsight for ya.

[SmileyDude1]

VOTE: aliana
-SNIP-

I've detailed why Smiley in D1, and I think we have at least one scum off the wagon, especially since I feel like a newer scum would want to be off the town wagon.
-SNIP-
ninja'd - lovely to meet you Tom

This is misleading, I voted for the wagon in my 654, and never unvoted for the rest of day 1. HEM forgot to track it and I didn't notice it until after deadline passed.

[SmileyDude1]

VOTE: aliana
-SNIP-

I've detailed why Smiley in D1, and I think we have at least one scum off the wagon, especially since I feel like a newer scum would want to be off the town wagon.
-SNIP-
ninja'd - lovely to meet you Tom

This is misleading, I voted for the wagon in my 654, and never unvoted for the rest of day 1. HEM forgot to track it and I didn't notice it until after deadline passed.

EBWOP

[SmileyDude1]

I need to work on my quotes man. Like cmon

[SmileyDude1]

Oh I know what got me kinda into a blind on smiley, it was their agreeing about the ender thing

But ok
VOTE: smiley This is probably more effective but they're viable partners with mik slot, smiley states a weirdly blank townrewd on the slot.

My read on Alianna was mostly based on my opinion of MikhailTal (their predecessor) mentioned in 235. Haven't paid to much attention to the slot since they replaced, which probs means i'm going to need to re-ISO at some point ugh.

[SmileyDude1]

My initial instinct upon seeing the night kill and day start points to Starfire for me. A PC green flip makes it easier to push slots like myself and DK who engaged PC during day 1 which, in my eyes, lines up with what Starfire was doing both day 1 and today. Starfire was also one of relatively few players who avoided interacting with PC at all, despite PC being on their case day 1. It's a night kill that would be both useful and hard to trace for Scum!Starfire.

I also have grown more paranoid of the Jason slot upon seeing the night kill. Given the connection between Jason/PC during day 1, I fear that the slot might have killed them in order to make DK look worse.

This is a setup and i'm not going to just let this stand!. VOTE: Starfire should've pursued this harder yesterday, but that's hindsight for ya.

why do u think im town

I've gotten consistently townie vibes on your slot that date back to your predecessor day 1, i'm getting the same pro-town sorting energy from you that I got from Keria early on day 1 before they replaced. The night kill only reinforced this given that I don't see why Scum!you would agree to shoot PC night 1 considering it'd draw more suspicion towards your slot.

[SmileyDude1]

I have to leave for work in a second, so i'm likely not going to be able to engage until after I get back home.

[SmileyDude1]

Might as well take a pagetop for the road though

[SmileyDude1]

Oof, I spent most of yesterday watching EVO and lost track of how long i'd been gone for .

I'm not quite following your thought process as to why Koba would kill PC. What logic, exactly, are you referring to?

I'd identify PC as the most dangerous townie to Koba, having been on them for consistently good reasons last Day. I think the WIFOM of "well they definitely wouldn't NK a person attacking them" isn't useful. The logic is that the mafia, (likely) having an RB and believing the cop claim, would infer the presence of a doctor and so would pick a second-best NK after IAVH.

The question is was PC the 2nd best NK choice for ScumKoba! though. I feel like it'd be easier to undermine PC by say killing someone they pushed like yourself or Ender than draw suspicion to yourself by dealing with them directly.

Also @humaneatingmonkey, can we get a Vote Count whenever you get a chance

[SmileyDude1]

This game has really slowed down. I think half the town is in prod range lol.

Yeah, it's kind of yikes that I was gone for 2 days and only 15 posts occurred since I left. I'll be on for at least a little while if there are any questions for me though

[SmileyDude1]

Town

iamveryhappy
Dkkoba
Ender
Alianna
Deltabreedy
Starfire

Scum

This is where i'm at right now. Upon taking another look at Alianna I noticed that they also got into it with PC near the end of day 1 which puts them in the category of people who look bad upon PC's flip. Given the size of this group (DK,Aliannna,Myself,Ender), i've come to realize that realistically there-likely is scum within it at the moment. I do think that a group of that size being painted in a negative light likely indicate there's scum outside of that group as well. I'd be willing to compromise on anyone Ender or below today should it come to it.

[SmileyDude1]

told you
I'm fully acknowledging it until there's a significant change in my play that isn't lurkish trollish or just anti-town in general

I'd say you're the most important asset town has right now as confirmed mason. We need you to be confident.

What's your current thoughts on the gamestate?

[SmileyDude1]

Oof, I spent most of yesterday watching EVO and lost track of how long i'd been gone for .

I'm not quite following your thought process as to why Koba would kill PC. What logic, exactly, are you referring to?

I'd identify PC as the most dangerous townie to Koba, having been on them for consistently good reasons last Day. I think the WIFOM of "well they definitely wouldn't NK a person attacking them" isn't useful. The logic is that the mafia, (likely) having an RB and believing the cop claim, would infer the presence of a doctor and so would pick a second-best NK after IAVH.

The question is was PC the 2nd best NK choice for ScumKoba! though. I feel like it'd be easier to undermine PC by say killing someone they pushed like yourself or Ender than draw suspicion to their slot by dealing with them directly.

Also @humaneatingmonkey, can we get a Vote Count whenever you get a chance

EBWOP

[SmileyDude1]

why do ppl think with a mod error announced that the kill was supposed to be PC lol

Personally, i'm not the biggest fan of attempting to speculate when it comes to mod errors. It could wind up being any of a large variety of things that'll likely come to light during postgame. Due to this, I was proceeding as if it didn't happen as trying to ascertain what the error was didn't seem like it'd bear useful results in my opinion.

[SmileyDude1]

starfire after going at it with them im like fairly sure they're town but if someone has a case from a 3rd party pov , I will at least consider it. I acknowledge that is a potential blind spot, but interacting directly makes it hard for me to reach that slot as scum

I will say that at least 1 slot is playing very well here bc every non wazza slot has played well as scum if they are scum - at least well in a way that fools me well.

I have to leave for work in a second, but was wondering why you see Starfire as town here, FMPOV there actions during this day phase coincide with what i'd expect Scum!Starfire to do given what flipped here, persisting even after I called it out in my 834.

Delta's entrance feels weird. The push on Koba based on TMI seems like a reach to me, but i'm not sure it's necessarily scum motivated due to Alianna apparently noticing earlier, it'd be weird to do that as a pair as well since Alianna had a line of questioning that got undercut by Delta bringing that up as well.

I still want Starfire due in part to thinking they're pushing scum agenda and due in part to Happy's input on 870.

Will compromise on Delta if that doesn't happen though

Got to go for now, but i'll try to be back later.

[SmileyDude1]

Alright we have less than 2 days left so I think it's best to start consolidating here.

I've been thinking about the gamestate and atm I feel pretty confident in the current towncore I have of myself,happy,and DK. I need to figure out Alianna/Ender though, I entered today leaning Ender as the final member of the towncore, but I'm liking Alianna's day 2 and the lack of content from Ender this day phase is starting to raise some doubts.

I've been paranoid about the Delta slot since I saw the flip today, and I don't think Delta has really done anything to assuage my concerns so
UNVOTE: Starfire
VOTE: Deltabreedy

E-1

[SmileyDude1]

One more call for:

Alianna
Ender
Smiley
Starfire

To justify whenever they're next online why they TR Koba.

My reasoning for townreading Koba can be found in my 848, In summary I feel like both DK and their predecessor Keria have consistently acted to solve for alignments. I find Keria's ISO in general to be really solid IMO. DK's evolving read on the Ender slot day 1, and the Starfire slot day 2 show a general willingness to adapt their reads based on fresh interaction that I feel is genuine and makes logical sense given their thought process. I also generally think the PC flip indicates that scum are trying to push the slot as a scapegoat as mentioned in my 834

Listen we need more folks weighing in on this else it's just going to be Koba and I locking horns. Ender is almost due a prod and we need them - we need Smiley and Alianna to do more than just sheep Koba and we need Happy to really weigh in more with their thoughts and also (I might have missed it) PC's thoughts too.
-SNIP-

This comes off to me as dismissive btw, my vote on you is not me sheeping Koba, I made it clear in my 834 that if it were up to me i'd want to lim Starfire, but given the approaching deadline and the lack of traction there I shifted onto you for three reasons

1. I feel that your slot is one of the slots that benefits the most from PC's flip and as I already mentioned I think there's at least one scum who's trying to use this flip as ammo to try to push out low hanging townies


2. I feel that there was likely at least one scum involved in the Jason/PC/DK debacle from yesterday and my 654 still stands with the caveat that I know PC is town now.

3. The alternative option was to let one of my top townreads get wagoned while pushing a case that wasn't gaining any traction. Today seems to be narrowing down to you and DK and I find DK to be townier than you. Simple as that.


I do find it interesting how you only now tried to ask this after I established a tenative towncore in my 953, as if you were trying to cause me to doubt my reads. Makes me think I may have been on to something there

[SmileyDude1]

Also given that we seem to be at an impasse and their is less than 2 days left

@humaneatingmonkey, can we get a pre-emptive prod for Ender pls.

[SmileyDude1]

Delta's 996 does bring up a good point though and it's kind of a goof on all of us that this wasn't brought up earlier

@iamveryhappy Did PC leave any thoughts on the gamestate in the Mason PT

[SmileyDude1]

-SNIP-

Listen we need more folks weighing in on this else it's just going to be Koba and I locking horns. Ender is almost due a prod and we need them - we need Smiley and Alianna to do more than just sheep Koba and we need Happy to really weigh in more with their thoughts and also (I might have missed it) PC's thoughts too.
-SNIP-

This comes off to me as dismissive btw, my vote on you is not me sheeping Koba, I made it clear in my 834 that if it were up to me i'd want to lim Starfire, but given the approaching deadline and the lack of traction there I shifted onto you for three reasons

1. I feel that your slot is one of the slots that benefits the most from PC's flip and as I already mentioned I think there's at least one scum who's trying to use this flip as ammo to try to push out low hanging townies

2. I feel that there was likely at least one scum involved in the Jason/PC/DK debacle from yesterday and my 654 still stands with the caveat that I know PC is town now.

3. The alternative option was to let one of my top townreads get wagoned while pushing a case that wasn't gaining any traction. Today seems to be narrowing down to you and DK and I find DK to be townier than you. Simple as that.

I do find it interesting how you only now tried to ask this after I established a tenative towncore in my 953, as if you were trying to cause me to doubt my reads. Makes me think I may have been on to something there

You say you aren't sheeping Koba, but your 'reasoning' for voting me is literally the same as theirs. I don't really see how my slot benefits from PC's flip at all to be honest and if anything, Koba has leapt on a replacing-in player (IE: Low hanging townie), lied, manipulated, falsified and chucked a few ad hominems around, and hoped to call it a case on me. It's the equivalent of throwing spaghetti at the wall to see if it's cooked - but Koba's grabbed a fistful of the stuff, and they applied paste to the wall first. I'd go so far as to say that their 'case' is

Half-Baked

aha-

They decided early on, likely the moment it was announced that I'd be joining in Jason's place, that they were going to do anything they could to discredit me but you're just sheeping. And it is sheeping, for context because you're not adding a single thing that's new or original to their 'case'. The fact that you are unable to should speak volumes.

And yeah, I'm asking people to justify their reads on Koba because Koba's so insistent that they've been the sole true paragon of towniness and solving the game and I completely call bull on that, because the argument that's been slapped together on me is disintegrating and wafting away like a fart in the wind, yet they persist. They say they're solving, they aren't even concerned about who would be my partner if I were to flip scum.

---

Koba

Needs

me to be scum, so they're putting it all on the line that I'm scum and hoping people back them. No doubt - they're talented and they back themselves to talk out of a hole tomorrow should they be successful and you know I don't doubt that they could which is the worst thing about all of this.

This vote puts us in Lim or Lose - and with Koba on the board, well you've seen how hard they worked to manipulate me - what will they do D3 to secure the win?

Ok at first I was giving you the benefit of doubt that the tone in 996 was an anomaly, but I think its become clear at this point that you're engaging in an outright misrep. Of the reasoning in my 1009 at most only the last of the three reasons I mentioned are similar to DkKoba, to say that my reasoning for voting you is the same as theirs is disingenuous and seeks to discredit, I know the walls are closing in on you, but let's keep above essentially flailing here.

Also lol at the narrative that DK was out for your slot since you replaced in when you originally came at his slot first. If that was actually DK's plan then don't you think they would've done more to shade your slot pending your entrance. Like look at their interactions day 2 before you entered here, if the plan was to discredit and push your slot all along then it doesn't make sense that they did nothing to set that up before hand.

I'm not going to let you break my reads. With every additional attempt from you to discredit my reads, I become more confident that they're just right.

Ender, I hope you see this for what it is and make the right choice here. I'll be back sometime tomorrow

[SmileyDude1]

-SNIP-

Listen we need more folks weighing in on this else it's just going to be Koba and I locking horns. Ender is almost due a prod and we need them - we need Smiley and Alianna to do more than just sheep Koba and we need Happy to really weigh in more with their thoughts and also (I might have missed it) PC's thoughts too.
-SNIP-

This comes off to me as dismissive btw, my vote on you is not me sheeping Koba, I made it clear in my 834 that if it were up to me i'd want to lim Starfire, but given the approaching deadline and the lack of traction there I shifted onto you for three reasons

1. I feel that your slot is one of the slots that benefits the most from PC's flip and as I already mentioned I think there's at least one scum who's trying to use this flip as ammo to try to push out low hanging townies

2. I feel that there was likely at least one scum involved in the Jason/PC/DK debacle from yesterday and my 654 still stands with the caveat that I know PC is town now.

3. The alternative option was to let one of my top townreads get wagoned while pushing a case that wasn't gaining any traction. Today seems to be narrowing down to you and DK and I find DK to be townier than you. Simple as that.

I do find it interesting how you only now tried to ask this after I established a tenative towncore in my 953, as if you were trying to cause me to doubt my reads. Makes me think I may have been on to something there

You say you aren't sheeping Koba, but your 'reasoning' for voting me is literally the same as theirs. I don't really see how my slot benefits from PC's flip at all to be honest and if anything, Koba has leapt on a replacing-in player (IE: Low hanging townie), lied, manipulated, falsified and chucked a few ad hominems around, and hoped to call it a case on me. It's the equivalent of throwing spaghetti at the wall to see if it's cooked - but Koba's grabbed a fistful of the stuff, and they applied paste to the wall first. I'd go so far as to say that their 'case' is

Half-Baked

aha-

They decided early on, likely the moment it was announced that I'd be joining in Jason's place, that they were going to do anything they could to discredit me but you're just sheeping. And it is sheeping, for context because you're not adding a single thing that's new or original to their 'case'. The fact that you are unable to should speak volumes.

And yeah, I'm asking people to justify their reads on Koba because Koba's so insistent that they've been the sole true paragon of towniness and solving the game and I completely call bull on that, because the argument that's been slapped together on me is disintegrating and wafting away like a fart in the wind, yet they persist. They say they're solving, they aren't even concerned about who would be my partner if I were to flip scum.

---

Koba

Needs

me to be scum, so they're putting it all on the line that I'm scum and hoping people back them. No doubt - they're talented and they back themselves to talk out of a hole tomorrow should they be successful and you know I don't doubt that they could which is the worst thing about all of this.

This vote puts us in Lim or Lose - and with Koba on the board, well you've seen how hard they worked to manipulate me - what will they do D3 to secure the win?

Ok at first I was giving you the benefit of doubt that the tone in 996 was an anomaly, but I think its become clear at this point that you're engaging in an outright misrep. Of the reasoning in my 1009 at most only the last of the three reasons I mentioned are similar to DkKoba, to say that my reasoning for voting you is the same as theirs is disingenuous and seeks to discredit, I know the walls are closing in on you, but let's keep above essentially flailing here.

Also lol at the narrative that DK was out for your slot since you replaced in when you originally came at his slot first. If that was actually DK's plan then don't you think they would've done more to shade your slot pending your entrance. Like look at their interactions day 2 before you entered here, if the plan was to discredit and push your slot all along then it doesn't make sense that they did nothing to set that up before hand.

I'm not going to let you break my reads. With every additional attempt from you to discredit my reads, I become more confident that they're just right.

Ender, I hope you see this for what it is and make the right choice here. I'll be back sometime tomorrow

Ok at first I was giving you the benefit of doubt that the tone in 996 was an anomaly, but I think its become clear at this point that you're engaging in an outright misrep. Of the reasoning in my 1009 at most only the last of the three reasons I mentioned are similar to DkKoba, to say that my reasoning for voting you is the same as theirs is disingenuous and seeks to discredit, I know the walls are closing in on you, but let's keep above essentially flailing here.

Also lol at the narrative that DK was out for your slot since you replaced in when you originally came at his slot first. If that was actually DK's plan then don't you think they would've done more to shade your slot pending your entrance. Like look at their interactions day 2 before you entered here, if the plan was to discredit and push your slot all along then it doesn't make sense that they did nothing to set that up before hand.

I'm not going to let you break my reads. With every additional attempt from you to discredit my reads, I become more confident that they're just right.

Ender, I hope you see this for what it is and make the right choice here. I'll be back sometime tomorrow

EBWOP, I really need to use preview more before I submit, like what am I actually doing.

[SmileyDude1]

And I still didn't do it right

Spoiler: Screaming noises

AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH

[SmileyDude1]

Thanks DK, that's always encouraging to hear

[SmileyDude1]

@Smiley: Man, those tags, huh

Listen Smiley - do what you need to do. Koba's keeping you alive tonight anyway because they're buttering you up for Lim-or-Lose tomorrow.

I've not misrepped anything though. Most of your reasons were statements, not actual reasons and then voting me because you've cleared other 'townies' is bunk. Let me take a wild guess... Ender's my partner, right?

Players being super complimentary in Mafia is something to keep an eye out for. It can sometimes be pretty innocuous, but what Koba is doing is trying to give you the feel-goods and make you like them more. What they said about you and your ability is pure blowing smoke up your arse so that you sing to their hymn sheet tomorrow.

Where's Koba's actual case? Where is it? It doesn't exist!

I've listed, numerous times, why Koba is scum. I don't know what more I can do. I've taken the facts of what's at hand, presented them before you as clear as day. At a certain point it's on you to decide to read my points rather than blindly going 'oh you're misrepping'. I can lead a camel to water but I can't force it to drink - that bit comes from you.

Koba started the day with the base premise that I'm scum, and has tried to justify that by working backwards from the conclusion. That's not a solve, it's a decision. They came at me for a meta read, it hasn't stuck. They came at me with antagonism, it stuck for like 16 hours. They came at me with activity which was a barefaced lie. At a certain point you have to ask yourself why your townread here is having to lie to justify their scumreads, rather than developing them naturally

At the end of the day this comes down to Ender so this is the last i'll say on this. I can't buy the idea that DK was gunning for your slot when they did nothing that suggested this angle prior to your 880, really as simple as that.

I may be new around here though I'd like to think i'm above being pocketed with pure flattery. Should you flip green (Unlikely at this point), i'll reevaluate Koba just like I reevaluate all slots in ELO that aren't confTown

[SmileyDude1]

*Sigh* was hoping i'd be the NK after what happened yesterday .

The worst part is that half of you guys aren't even scum you just elected to scumside when it was so clear-cut.

[SmileyDude1]

My initial thought is that this is just Delta & Ender. Delta needs no further explanation after what happened yesterday, and I agree with DK's analysis that Ender's switch-up from Delta to DK was super dishonest.

Gosh there's a good chance that I aided in saving scum day 1 i'm such an idiot

[SmileyDude1]

Also apologies for coming as harsh here, i'm just frustrated at what happened yesterday. That's no excuse though, at the end of the day getting mad doesn't change what happened or lead to anything useful. I'm going to take a step back for a bit to clear my mind. Let's try to work this back guys.

[SmileyDude1]

I don't think there's a world where either of them flip town at this point so it doesn't matter which order we go

I'm tempted to rectify the mistake I made day 1, and that walkback from Ender was a blatant deception imo. I'd prefer to go Ender first

Kind of want to just wrap this up quickly, you down for Ender?

[SmileyDude1]

I'm about to go to sleep so I'll post my thoughts real quick and then won't be on again for several hours, but... First off how is iavh still alive? Bringing a conf!town into a 2v3 just narrows the pool in favor of town. I don't understand the NK. Chances of hitting scum go from 2/5 to 2/4 which is significant.

I guess it's probably an attempt at wifom to cause a mis-elim, so not worth spending too much time on. As far as I'm concerned iavh is confirmed to be the second mason based on his soft, his claim and the lack of a counter. so I guess we'll just can take whatever advantage we can get.

Second, needless to say, but it's a newbie game so I will, but with only 3 votes needed for an elim and 2 scum alive, please hold your vote until we're in agreement and ready for an elim. Otherwise one townie votes another and scum pile on for a quick win.

Anyway, with regards to my vote yesterday, what it came down to is I didn't give the game enough attention until the end of the Day and it came down to me being the deciding vote. And I guess delta sweet talked me and koba's play looked scummy enough to me to change my mind. Not much else I can say about it at this point, other than I wish I had stuck with my gut from the night before and just voted then. But I wanted to keep the day alive as long as possible so I waited, and in that time I was able to be swayed away from my original instinct.

So where to go from here... with iavh conf!town, that leaves three people besides myself, among which two are scum. Unfortunately I'm probably the easiest suspect now and scum is going to latch onto that I'm sure.

With all that said I'm potentially interested in a delta elim today. but before committing to anything I'd like a chance to reread with the info we have now about alianna.

@Smiley, it's Day 3 and if we don't hit scum today we lose. We have a week left, why the hurry?

If you are going to vote me, at least lay out the case so I have a chance to defend myself.

@iavh why is smiley cleared in your mind? just because Koba said he is conf!town and Koba flipped town doesn't mean he is. Koba doesn't have any more information than you or I do about smileys role.

Personally with smileys encouragement to quick elim me he's pretty much confirming the opposite in my mind, that he is scum that sees the finish line and can't wait to cross it.

I admit I've played poorly this game but everything I've done I've tried to talk through and reason out transparently. Making the wrong choice isn't inherently scummy.

@starfire your thoughts will be very valuable. What do you think about how the game state has progressed thus far?

@delta assuming you're coming at this from the positon that the entire Day yesterday was townie vs townie which led to two townie wagons that scum easily jumped on, who do you think is scum?

Anyway, good night for now, I'll check in when I'm awake.

To answer the part directed at me i'm miffed at what happened yesterday, and kind of feel done with this game rn. This is another sign that I need to take my own advice and come back with a clear mind. Not a fan of the decision you made yesterday, but I guess i'll give hear you out (perhaps against my better judgement but we'll see). Anyways it's like post 3 AM where i'm at so i'm going to hit the hay. Good Night

[SmileyDude1]

I'm about to go to sleep so I'll post my thoughts real quick and then won't be on again for several hours, but... First off how is iavh still alive? Bringing a conf!town into a 2v3 just narrows the pool in favor of town. I don't understand the NK. Chances of hitting scum go from 2/5 to 2/4 which is significant.

I guess it's probably an attempt at wifom to cause a mis-elim, so not worth spending too much time on. As far as I'm concerned iavh is confirmed to be the second mason based on his soft, his claim and the lack of a counter. so I guess we'll just can take whatever advantage we can get.

Second, needless to say, but it's a newbie game so I will, but with only 3 votes needed for an elim and 2 scum alive, please hold your vote until we're in agreement and ready for an elim. Otherwise one townie votes another and scum pile on for a quick win.

Anyway, with regards to my vote yesterday, what it came down to is I didn't give the game enough attention until the end of the Day and it came down to me being the deciding vote. And I guess delta sweet talked me and koba's play looked scummy enough to me to change my mind. Not much else I can say about it at this point, other than I wish I had stuck with my gut from the night before and just voted then. But I wanted to keep the day alive as long as possible so I waited, and in that time I was able to be swayed away from my original instinct.

So where to go from here... with iavh conf!town, that leaves three people besides myself, among which two are scum. Unfortunately I'm probably the easiest suspect now and scum is going to latch onto that I'm sure.

With all that said I'm potentially interested in a delta elim today. but before committing to anything I'd like a chance to reread with the info we have now about alianna.

@Smiley, it's Day 3 and if we don't hit scum today we lose. We have a week left, why the hurry?

If you are going to vote me, at least lay out the case so I have a chance to defend myself.

@iavh why is smiley cleared in your mind? just because Koba said he is conf!town and Koba flipped town doesn't mean he is. Koba doesn't have any more information than you or I do about smileys role.

Personally with smileys encouragement to quick elim me he's pretty much confirming the opposite in my mind, that he is scum that sees the finish line and can't wait to cross it.

I admit I've played poorly this game but everything I've done I've tried to talk through and reason out transparently. Making the wrong choice isn't inherently scummy.

@starfire your thoughts will be very valuable. What do you think about how the game state has progressed thus far?

@delta assuming you're coming at this from the positon that the entire Day yesterday was townie vs townie which led to two townie wagons that scum easily jumped on, who do you think is scum?

Anyway, good night for now, I'll check in when I'm awake.

Ok, So I've had time to sleep on it and look at the entirety of your post. FMPOV the case against Deltabreedy is clear cut at this point, they pushed a false narrative in order to miseliminate town and engaged in clear misrepresentation of others viewpoints in order to discredit and deflect. Delta should be lockScum! after yesterday's flip if you're town so the fact that you left room to potentially go elsewhere today is not it imo. Via the above point you should also know that i'm pretty much Confed at this point due to the fact that I actually saw and called this out so you trying to leave me on the table is super disingenuous.

I was thinking that it'd be best to take a step back before I potentially make a hasty decision, but this post stinks and reinforces my earlier thoughts

@smiley
do you even buy what ender put
feels desperate imo
@scum well done for using wifom but I'm still conftown, to get me just cc lol

Upon rereading with fresh eyes not really, though I do think it may be optimal to hear him out.

Some questions for Ender:

Do you think that Delta v DK yesterday was Town v Town?
What's your solve right now?

[SmileyDude1]

-SNIP-
If you are going to vote me, at least lay out the case so I have a chance to defend myself.
-SNIP-

As mentioned above Delta is essentially ConfScum to me at this point and Happy is cleared. That leaves you and Starfire as potential candidates here from my view. Of the two of you, I find your switch-up to be more scum indicative than how Starfire wound up on the wagon, given that she hadn't posted in a while now. I also think that my earlier stances on Starfire may actually be why i'm still alive here. Scum maybe thought I'd throw the game for town by continuing the tunnel, which makes me think I was just wrong on the slot all along (though this admittedly is WIFOM, I would be much more split if this was my only reasoning)

[SmileyDude1]

not killing me was borderline gamethrow btw
you kinda just left a clear AND a kingmade townie (kind of)
the thing is you cant possibly cc me after the mik/alianna slot is gone and you cannot kill off both me and smiley in one night, leaving a clear for v3polo. if me/smiley were killed we'd go into v5polo with only one and v3polo with no clears although we could kind of use wagonomics which are not always reliable.
the thing is so WIFOMy. would s!delta even do that mistake
II'm paranoid about me/smiley not dying
aaaa

I feel you on this. I think at this point Delta is betting on his partner (whether it be Starfire or Ender) convincing one of us in F3. I think scum see utility in both of us with you getting manipulated yesterday and my tunnel on Starfire being potentially useful for them. It's going to be imperative that we discuss together while we're both here so we have a sure course of action going into F3.

Looking back at the Delta Vs DK interaction, if Delta is actually green here then this was always going to be scuffed regardless. I don't see myself ever getting to Green Delta here even considering NK WIFOM

[SmileyDude1]

@Smiley you already admitted that you tunneled someone in the past this game and it was a bad thing and it could be factored into scum's strategy here... and then here you are tunneling. what worries me is that you're so sure of yourself coming into a day where one wrong move spells the end of the game.

the question is: why aren't you looking at everyone? we have a whole week to deliberate. we should each be looking at every other player individually and judging them on their play from the entire game, their interactions with slots we now know the flips of, etc. and if it comes back to me, then it comes back to me. but to not even entertain the idea is incredibly irresponsible.

see, here's the problem. i see two people (one of which is conf!town) gunning for me from the moment the thread opens. that's not the scary part. but this is: i know that there are 2 scum in the game, and with @iavh's buy-in scum essentially have the win in their pocket. if smiley is scum, all he needs to do is wait for his partner to show up, convince iavh to vote me, and then he and his partner pile on. easy peasy. if smiley is town, same thing: he and iavh vote me, then scum can lurk until you guys vote, and either one can quick hammer.

@iavh you're not wrong that i'm desperate but you're wrong about why. seeing our only conf!town slot so willing to join smiley on a vote on

anyone

so early in the Day without taking a step back to look at everyone is terrifying.

this is why I don't understand the benefit of the "what's your solve" question. maybe the meta changed, but my experience has taught me that it's generally a bad idea to try and decide on a scum team before you know who one of the scum is. sure, focus on each of the scummiest players at the time but look at them independently. otherwise you draw conclusions based on wrong assumptions, which can lead to bad results. you have to re-evaluate after each player is elim'd or NK'd anyway, so imo it's better to focus your energy on finding one scum at a time than two at once. (maybe i'm wrong, idk. maybe after the game someone can explain to me why trying to solve an entire team at once while they're all still alive is a good and worthwhile strategy.)

so what's my solve? hell if i know. i don't think it's possible to confidently solve the game with the information we have.

who do i find scummy? right now both delta and smiley are pinging my radar. i don't buy conf-t!smiley until someone can convincingly explain to me why. but i will say that if smiley is our second conf-t player, this game is lost.

Thing is I am considering everyone here, my 1228 still stands as my initial view point of where i'm at right now for reasons mentioned in my 1238. I'm not a fan of the way you've approached this day phase so far, but at the end of the day if I was full tunneled onto you I wouldn't bother asking you any questions nor would I consider worlds where you aren't scum like in the aforementioned 1238, and 1240. I think right now it's just You/Delta, but i'm willing to hear you out if there's anything I haven't considered.

Also if both me

AND

Delta are pinging you then you need to take a stepback before you throw the game, like take another look at yesterday and I don't see how you reach that conclusion.

[SmileyDude1]

let's play your "solve" game and say for a second it is Delta/Smiley

1. Delta gets into with Koba and manages to build a wagon in response to counter his own.
2. Smiley jumps onto the wagon to bus Delta, knowing that he either gets town cred Day 3 when his partner flips scum and he was on the wagon (since by that point iavh and koba would be singing his praises), or he has a scapegoat if i hammer Koba instead
3. After the latter happens, knowing iavh was feeling good about Smiley, Delta and Happy decide to keep him alive even though he's conf-ed, and come into Day 3 alleging that Smiley is also confed. They plan that either they manage to mis-elim me, or Delta is the sacrifice to further paint Smiley as town.

fun theory right? i could probably reason through a theory about each of the possible pairings at this point. so let's stop the "what's your solve" bs and hunt scummy players instead.

I've mentioned my uneasiness on the Delta slot as early as my 834 (my first post of Day 2). Heck you can even see my early read on their being scum in the DK/Jason/PC argument as early as Day 1 if you look through my ISO. The attempt to say I jumped on the wagon to bus is ridiculous. Trying to float a Delta/Smiley theory is a lazy desperate stretch and you know it.

[SmileyDude1]

scum points for smiley include:
1. the moment day started he was pushing for a quick elim. this isn't omgus, it isn't about the target being me. i'd say the same if it was starfire or delta on the chopping block. like i said above, it feels like scum seeing the end in sight and not wanting to wait. granted, he's pulled back a little and is willing to hear me out, which softens this one slightly, but it doesn't change how he started the day, and anyway he may just be waiting for starfire or delta to show up so he and iavh have the third vote they need.
2. he put a lot of effort into letting us know just how upset he was. don't you think the guy who dropped the hammer was a bit upset too? there are only two people who weren't upset. it's expected and doesn't need to be said. it's a type of appeal to emotion by expressing a lot of emotion to gain town points. can a townie be emotional? sure. but expressing it as much as he did just feels sus.
3. embracing his conf!town-ness. unless you're a claimed PR you're not conf!town, ever. iavh has that benefit, but no one else does. the whole "i'm conf'd because i said that delta was scum" is beyond me, especially since we don't even know if delta is scum right now. being confed is something you earn, not something you take.
and here's the thing, i would

want

him to be conf!town. that would make today so easy because it would PoE, delta/starfire, boom we win. but i have no reason to conf him as town.
4. this entire game smiley barely interacted with me. he replied when i called him out on his inactivity Day 1. he called me out on my inactivity Day 2. but overall i was leaning town on every single one of his read lists. he nearly town-core'd me until i was quiet most of yesterday. and today simply because i over-thought my vote in a high pressure situation, changed my mind and hammered koba, i'm conf!scum with delta.

1. As mentioned earlier that was me letting out my anger about yesterday combined with late night posting. Was not in a good state and even acknowledged that I got ahead of myself there.
2. You have to understand that I wasn't online when your hammer yesterday occured, I had to sit there and absorb what happened yesterday for the entire night phase and what you saw at daystart was the culmination of that occurring

3. Once again, Delta should be LockScum! based on what happened yesterday. I saw your response to the Delta Vs DK argument. It's one thing to let emotion creep in, it's another thing entirely to put up demonstrably false arguments like Delta's 1012, which I called out in my 1030 (apologies for the mess of a quote btw). It should be clear as day that Delta is scum here after seeing DK's flip (the fact you're not seeing it is concerning to say the least) from there it doesn't take rocket scientist to look at associations and rule people out
4. Once again if I actually thought you were ConfScum! I wouldn't even entertain you here given where we're at right now. You're taking an emotional outburst I made at daystart and trying to run way too far with it

[SmileyDude1]

Ok so another question for you, do you see a viable solve that doesn't include Delta here at the moment and if so what do you think it is? If Delta town than from your POV the team would need to be myself/Starfire, does that track with you?

I'll perform the same exercise. From my POV the team would need to be you/Starfire if it's not Delta i'll reread and think on it a while and will come back to you with an answer on that.

[SmileyDude1]

So I'm the Mason.
-SNIP-

So let me stop you right there. You really expect us to buy that you're actually mason here after what happened yesterday huh. Do you actually have any sort of softs you can point to or are you insulting our intelligence at this point?

[SmileyDude1]

VOTE: Delta
ehh predicted.
I telling you that's useless.
have you hidden any softs?
you literally
jason slot never sussed me fpr that
you acknowledged me as conf d2
all to cc me d3
shoulda done it earlier
this
is an example of a misplay
everyone knows you are desperate for a hammer on me
ehh
defense mode go brrr

Before I hammer Delta for scumclaiming here, Happy what our your thoughts on Starfire/Ender. It's near certain hat either you or me die tonight so I want to make the most out of each other's input while we have it

[SmileyDude1]

It's late where i'm at and i've decided that i've had enough of this desperate attempt at a counterclaim. As Ender mentioned above if you are a mason than this game was lost when you didn't claim yesterday.

VOTE: Deltabreedy

iamveryhappy, I would recommend taking another look at Jason/Delta's interactions during the night phase in case scum decide to kill myself over you. There's a big decision to be made tomorrow and any links we can find could prove useful here.

[SmileyDude1]

*Sigh* here we go

Currently at work right now, but wanted to say that I took another look at the Delta slot's interactions during the night phase

Will post my findings when I get home.

[SmileyDude1]

*Sigh* here we go

Currently at work right now, but wanted to say that I took another look at the Delta slot's interactions during the night phase

Will post my findings when I get home.

Took another look at Jason/Delta interactions during night phase.

JasonWazza has both the Starfire Slot/Ender in his PoE during the initial impressions of day 1. They later vote Ender in their 603 pairing them with DKkoba in the process. After Ender is brought to E-1, I make posts 651,652, and 654 which causes the wagon to shift elsewhere. Interestingly Jason doesn't do too much to stop this only questioning PC's unvote in 675. Besides their initial impression the Jason/Starfire slots didn't really have too many notable interactions day 1.

Day 2 is where it gets interesting. Delta didn't really interact with either of the Ender/Starfire slots directly during day 2, though both slots did take action to aid the Deltabreedy slot. Ender of course had the hammer on DK day 2, while the Starfire slot pushed on DK early day 2 and their 931 comes off as an attempt to defend Delta by trying to shift the conversation into a DK/Starfire 1v1 rather than a DK/Delta one.

Day 3 is weird due to the Starfire slot not participating at all, Ender's initial reluctance to Delta scum came off poorly to me, but I liked their reaction to Delta's fakeclaim, especially their 1278 dismantling Delta's rebuttal. Delta's attempt to fakeclaim mason comes off as kind of absurd to even attempt though for reasoning mentioned in Happy's 1264, which has me slightly paranoid that this maybe could have been a gambit.

In summary, right now I think I feel better about Ender's position relative to the Jason/Delta slot then I do the Starfire slot. Though Delta/Starfire would also mean that Delta was essentially running solo since the latter part of day 2, and I'm not sure how likely that is to be the case.

If I had to vote right now I lean slightly towards wanting to vote the Starfire slot, but i'd be interested in hearing the worst's thoughts before committing to a decision here.

[SmileyDude1]

you two are in accord so whichever of you is town is going to need to evaluate the other pretty closely here please. I'm not above losing mafia games, and I'm aware replacing into f3 my agency is pretty limited. I can show y'all my perspective, but I'm pretty good at arguing so you should be taking everything I say with a grain of salt anyway. But I'm very competitive and don't *like* losing, so I will sleep much better if both of you could take a step back and check your reads on each other a bit closer.

If anyone is around to jam while I catch up, shout out. If you'd like me to poke some holes in your cases, let me know. Broadly speaking I think this is less helpful than me just finding scum tbh.

To be clear I do still have my doubts on the Ender slot, an accurate description of how I feel right now would be split if we're being honest. I'll give this game another look when I have time though

[SmileyDude1]

-SNIP-
gonna ask you both to stretch your minds back to the past if you don't mind--

@SmileyDude1, i have some questions about your initial reads

let's start this game with a side-game of

hot

and

cold

. every other player gets one guess as to who my mason partner is today. It'll work like Guess Who - you can either guess the name, or state an observation as fact. the extremes listed in colour earlier are as specific as i'll get but i'll tell you if your guess is colder or warmer than the previous person's.

MikhailTal's slot is a mason.

Hot

.

Ok, Just now seeing this and can we not pls. This is objectively an anti-town play as you either give scum information about the setup and your partner if trueclaiming, or risk outing PRs if you're fake claiming.

smiley, why did you not acknowledge the claim in your post #19 but acknowledged it when you came back after everyone was talking & arguing about it?

Upon a quick skim I think I agree with Keria on a lot of the IAVH/Starfire interaction. I think it's reasonable for Starfire to be suspicious of IAVH's push due to logic mentioned in Keria's 52, but I also believe that IAVH is making a genuine push on someone they believe is playing in a scummy manner. The argument didn't move the needle on either of them for me

at this point, did you start to townread all of [keria, iavh, starfire]? do you remember suspecting anyone at this point in the game, or just handing out townreads? i'm also noting you said this about IAVH (below), but don't appear to townread him for it. do you think it makes sense for scum to be pushing someone genuinely, for something they perceive as scummy? is there a reason why you didn't consider IAVH town based on this read?

I also believe that IAVH is making a genuine push on someone they believe is playing in a scummy manner

-SNIP-

Just woke up from a late nap so I have a bit of time to respond ( though it's post-midnight where I am and I do still have work in the morning so i'll likely call it after this post)

To answer your first question, I think if I'm remembering correctly I had woken up to the game thread opening and wanted to introduce myself while I was getting ready for work (I usually work from 8-3 during weekdays), so I posted my RVS and then left to get ready. I had only noticed the post after I had reread the game after my shift.

To answer your other question, I was starting to townread Keria at this point, though I was null on the Starfire/Happy slots at this point because of their being stated pro-town and pro-scum reasonings for their position that I had trouble parsing early on. Up to this point I don't remember suspecting anyone specifically , though I think at this point at least I was trying to go about solving the game by finding town since I was struggling to identify behavior that clearly pinged me as scummy (as you'll later find out I had trouble gaining traction day 1).

As for Happy, while I felt that their push was warranted based on what Mikhail did, I had also had context of Mikhail's playstyle from reading Newbie 2127 in which that slot got pushed out day 1. Given that part of Starfire's early reasoning for scumreading the Happy slot was that scum were going for an easy push, I'd felt weary of giving a townread towards the slot

[SmileyDude1]

(as you'll later find out I had trouble gaining traction day 1).

As for Happy, while I felt that their push was warranted based on what Mikhail did, I had also had context of Mikhail's playstyle from reading Newbie 2127 in which that slot got pushed out day 1. Given that part of Starfire's early reasoning for scumreading the Happy slot was that scum were going for an easy push, I'd felt weary of giving a townread towards the slot

having difficulty finding traction is valid (i really haven't got my teeth sunk into this game yet)

i see what you mean about iavh. i guess what i'm curious about is, like, specifically the way you mentioned that he felt genuine. i feel like there's a pretty big difference between your actions being warranted/appropriate, and your actions seeming genuine, if that makes sense? like, town and scum can equally take a path which is fair & warranted. but it's pretty close to impossible for scum to be genuine when they're pushing someone else pretending that they're scum.

given you referred to iavh as feeling genuine there, i guess i'm wondering to what extent you think he was being truthful & why that didn't play into your read on his alignment?

On a 1-10 scale with 1 being completely genuine and 10 being completely ingenuine i'd say I was at a 4 at this point. Happy's reaction seemed like something to me that felt natural for town to post, but I didn't feel we were out of the realm of ulterior motives hence why I shifted it into null for the time being. I generally felt that it was pretty feasible (like around 30%) that the Starfire/Happy interaction early on had scum involved but I was having trouble identifying which was more likely at the time, so I elected to null read both in hopes that it'd sort itself out later (and to be fair, it kind of did to an extent).

[SmileyDude1]

-SNIP-

My take on Mikhail rn is that the play they made is anti-town, but feels wild to make as scum. I'm disregarding it for now until I get further clarification.

Speaking of which, @MikhailTal what were you trying to accomplish with post 14?

smileydude1 i'm surprised you were still focused on mikhail, at the exclusion of everything else that was happening. starfire vs iavh is, if nothing else, really spicy. did you not feel any urgency to have more developed reads at this point?

My current townreads:
Keria- I find myself agreeing with their takes often and I feel like they've consistently acted with intent to solve people
Political Clout- Intent to solve with their questions gives me a towny vibe
-GAP-
Maduisha- Mostly based on vibes

Everyone else is null for me atm. Nothing is pinging me as transparently scummy rn, so i'm hoping that by looking for town we can narrow it down via PoE

With that said UNVOTE: Maduisha

broadly speaking i like these reads (maduisha is an unexpected/unneeded townread; keria isn't a popular townread). i'm just still working through how you were still null on all of the slots which were like, actively playing the game, that just feels like such a safe space to put yourself in while everything is still quite chaotic.
-SNIP-

I thought it important to try to parse what Mikhail's intentions were with their early claim, I had caught on that they had an unorthodox playstyle, so I thought the best way to sort them would be to ask for their logic and see if it tracked with their actions the conclusion of which came in my 235. I will admittedly say that I was feeling somewhat lost for most of day 1 and had a hard time sorting during that time (catching a bad case of stomach flu certainly didn't help matters). I had mainly tried to focus on finding town since I'd felt I had gotten more traction there than I had finding scum at this point.

-SNIP-

EBWOP

(scroll up) smiley remains critical of starfire's push on iavh from much earlier in the game; no other opinions outside of those already stated?
jason continues to post, does not acknowledge smileydude

Want to preface this by saying I hope you're feeling better @ SmileyDude, I feel somewhat bad about pushing you while you're potentially ill.

That said,

I actually really like SmileyDude for scum right now. Discarding EBWOP, availability, and chatting with me about how to approach the game on a broad level, there are about a baker's dozen posts with content and most of these are piggybacking or soft town reading. Smiley's development goes

1. Tal's claim is anti-town but not necessarily scummy
1.5 Agrees with ender re: Tal claim, offering nothing new
2. Agrees with Keria re: me vs IAVH, offering nothing new.
3. Maduisha is below Keria and PC because vibes, all townish.
3.5 Asks for reads
4. Believes IAVH claim.
5. Votes me for 164, a post about how to approach the game at a broad level they previously accepted at face value.
5.5 Asks me a question that is already answered when asked before by JasonWazza (457 I give my answer, 482 Smiley asks again)
6. Jason-DK is TVT
7. PC is scum out of Jason-DK-PC (but not enough to scumread or vote), votes Maduisha (no explanation)

VOTE: SmileyDude1

really good sanity check for me on smiley

precede

smiley responds to PC clarifying what he wants an answer on; next post is a response to starfire's claim


-SNIP-

As mentioned in my 613, I had struggled gaining traction at this point in the game and wanted to make myself useful, so when I had finally caught a scum ping after struggling to find one all game, I wanted to pursue it as much as I could in the hopes that I'd help the gamestate by either catching them out or providing additional context that'd help others in sorting them.

[SmileyDude1]

The main thing i'm still grappling with in terms of making a decision is the night kills that occurred in this game.

Looking at night kills, the two questions I ask myself are Who does this NK implicate, and Who stands to benefit from said night kill.

Going from this perspective PC dying night 1 comes pretty close to a "perfect" choice for a hypothetical Delta/Starfire team, as it gives both slots more room to continue pursuing their pushes from day 1, (Jason/Delta on DK and Starfire on both DK and myself) though as mentioned in my 867 I don't know how realistic it is for a NK to line up that well though. I could also see a hypothetical Jason/Ender team being alright with a PC kill on the grounds that it makes Jason's slot look better via association and a PC green flip would likely look worse for myself and DKKoba then it would for Ender.

Alianna night 2 is especially weird to me. It's apparent in retrospect why scum elected to keep Happy alive, but it feels significant that they elected to kill Alianna over me given how day 2 ended. I think given my towncore post in 953, A hypothetical Delta/Star team may have been hoping that a green Alianna flip would cause me to sour on Ender (To be fair, if this was the case it almost worked, I almost let my emotions get the best of me there ). Though given my stance on Starfire ending day 2, A hypothetical Delta/Ender may have left me alive in hopes that i'd deathtunnel the Starfire slot and win the game for them in F5.

I'm going to need to parse this out eventually but it's not going to be easy.

[SmileyDude1]

VOTE: The Worst
gg guys

[SmileyDude1]

[SmileyDude1]

You're kidding...

Unfortunately i'm not, kind of at a loss for words right now, still absorbing that I managed to pull through here

[SmileyDude1]

First victory as scum, and ah it feels good. Like it's hard to describe, It's like a mixture of relief and happiness washed over me. I am all smiles right now

[SmileyDude1]

Yeah, really well played. I'm really impressed by some of your posting.

Thanks, I was honestly not feeling good about my position approaching the end of day 1, as before my comments on the Ender wagon i'd felt pretty lost on what I wanted to do. You made this difficult for me by questioning my early game when I felt that was my most vulnerable point so thanks for that

[SmileyDude1]

TBH, that post was actually kind of a slip on my part (note how I used myself when referring to scum night kill choice instead of me),

Fortunately that wasn't picked up on

[SmileyDude1]

yeah I was kicking myself over it because I usually scan over my posts to avoid that sort of thing, I had made the unilateral decision to just hammer the Delta slot (they wanted more time) slightly beforehand and rushed that post. If it came up I was going to play it off by saying I was tired and used the wrong tense (twas a late-night post after all ), though that definitely would have complicated things

[SmileyDude1]

Oh yeah, now that the game is over

@humaneatingmonkey, was curious about the mod error day 2, I initially thought you misflipped PC's role though I'd be interested in learning what it actually was

[SmileyDude1]

The mod error was: I announced iamveryhappy as mason partner.

Fail moderation, I just didn't have the time I thought I'll have and dropping the flavor was just the least I could do.

Congratulations everybody! Thank you to everyone who replaced in and thank you to the newbies who stuck it through!

Smiley, enjoy your win man. See you around!

Thank you for modding HEM, and thank you for being patient with me, my apologies for causing a bit of a hassle for you in the early game though i'm grateful you helped me through it.

[SmileyDude1]

Funnily enough this is my second game of forum mafia ever actually. Before joining here, my experience with this game was mainly as a mod irl with family and watching side streams featuring it online (Originally found this game via the Smash Summit series, if any of you are familiar with that).

Will say that I did lurk around this site for a while before joining reading games for fun, so i'm familiar with a good chunk of the lingo but i'm fresh in terms of experience.

I'm flattered by the compliment though

[SmileyDude1]

@humaneatingmonkey, was wondering if the PTs were good to release (no redactions on my part btw)

[SmileyDude1]

Smiley, I noticed you like to use tags to try to get people's attention/indicate that you would like a response from them. As far as I know, those tags don't actually do anything except link the user's profile. If you want to give someone a notification, you can do that by quoting one of their posts.

Just saw this and duly noted for future reference. Thank you for informing me about that.