Newbie 2086 - Reaction GIFs | End!

[fferyllt]

Vote Count 2-5

Greeting

(2): butterchurn, ɀefiend,

ɀefiend

(1): Greeting

Dunnstral

(1): Cape90

Cape90

(1): Dunnstral

V0ID

(1): catboi

Not Voting

(1): V0ID

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to eliminate.

Deadline: January 10, Midnight US Eastern Time.

Countdown: (expired on 2022-01-09 21:00:00)

Mod Notes:

-

[butterchurn]

So what is your vote on me for, exactly?

I've reiterated that like 3 times now, including in that same post. There's a few other little things that I've talked about, but the biggest trend is that your posting, interactions, and approach do not feel like the same way you play the game as town, and at times feel manufactured or artificial. And when pushed on this, you strawmanned and generally felt like you were doing whatever you could to weasel your way out of being questioned.

I always look at both sides and both possibilities, that's how I play -- look at posts and patterns through different lenses, and try to determine which one fits best. I can see the possibility that you are town, but as of now the possibility that you are scum seems to fit much better to me.

[Greeting]

So what is your vote on me for, exactly?

I've reiterated that like 3 times now, including in that same post. There's a few other little things that I've talked about, but the biggest trend is that your posting, interactions, and approach do not feel like the same way you play the game as town, and at times feel manufactured or artificial. And when pushed on this, you strawmanned and generally felt like you were doing whatever you could to weasel your way out of being questioned.

I always look at both sides and both possibilities, that's how I play -- look at posts and patterns through different lenses, and try to determine which one fits best. I can see the possibility that you are town, but as of now the possibility that you are scum seems to fit much better to me.

I've read your posts, but one time you strongly accuse me and then you say stuff like "I'd totally see town Greeting doing this", which is contradictory and hence my question.

[catboi]

I don't think whether zefiend is technically a newbie or not really matters as much as how comfortable they are with the game. (The newbie rules are kind of wonky now that it's been brought up, though).

I think Cape is the better vote right now, I don't see the 'conviction', I thought they were scummy day 1, and I don't think their arguments make sense on day 2.

VOTE: Cape90

Why did you think cape was scummy? What arguments of his don't make sense?

I don't see that with Greeting, who gives a very strong effort and clear scumhunting process every game and, for whatever reason, gets utterly nitpicked to death every time.

I agree with this. But Greeting has only been town in previous games. At some point he will roll mafia. Do you think, if he does in the future (or has this game), he will stop giving a strong effort and stop attempting to give an impression of scumhunting? I have a higher opinion of his abilities than that. My main suspicion of him is due to the fact that I feel like his approach to scumhunting and his interactions in general is not aligned with the approach that I've seen from him in previous games, and it feels like how scum!Greeting could attempt to imitate his usual style, while not quite hitting the mark. I understand you disagree on that point, but that's how I see it. I'm not trying to nitpick his arguments and his logic here, except for to see how he responds to that. I can see a world where this is just town Greeting, and some of his actions do read to me that way, but there's enough that just doesn't sit right for me to be willing to drop it completely.

You're right about the early posting today though, that certainly is not a scumtell on its own. That was more indicating that I would be keeping an eye on those two, because the way they started off the day drew my attention. I certainly was not expecting that alone to convince anyone of anything, I just wanted to share my thought process.

I think the reasoning and process he shows is difficult to fake as scum and I don't think the way he's going about things here feels insincere. I can try going into detail on this but don't know how more I can say on the matter.

[catboi]

Cape, I know I'm one to talk for multiposting, but quoting a bunch of massive posts and adding a one-liner to each is

really not it

as far as making the game readable goes

second quote makes zefiend obvtown

I'm not particularly sure at all why 438 makes him town. Feeling like his posting style is being disrespected surely is unrelated to his alignment.

Digested that wall on Greeting, have thoughts but will wait to hear his response on it. Want to try to take a look and respond to some other things as well, have been less thorough than I ought to be.

I actually think it is a pretty solid wall and ze looks a lot better today

I think it makes him more likely to be town. I don't find the case particularly compelling.

[butterchurn]

I've read your posts, but one time you strongly accuse me and then you say stuff like "I'd totally see town Greeting doing this", which is contradictory and hence my question.

I don't think it is contradictory (at least, the way I phrased it, not your paraphrase). I think anyone who can't see both sides is being negligent in their duty, if they're town. In mafia, everyone is wrong more often than not. Recognizing that and keeping an open mind, I find, is the key to success.

[catboi]

I see, thanks for explaining more. Does zefiend's assessment of his uneasy feeling that butterchurn might be scum despite thinking butterchurn is most likely town and playing a town game also in that same vein? As in, does that also ring some scum bells for you? If I had said "I am willing to work with butterchurn, he seems more and more town the more the game goes on and as I re-read his old posts" but without (now looking back on it, unnecessary) bolded line of the "there is the obvious possibility that butterchurn is scum playing a very convincing game." made you feel not as bad about me as scum?
Sure I am struggling to produce reads maybe...it is my first game after all. I think it is worth noting that you also have been pointed out for a lot of "meh" "shrug" posts by at least 2 users, I noted but forget exactly when and who. The first person you seem to be going hard at is me, for reasons I understand but I don't find all that convincing.

I would be surprised if you admitted to finding my own reasons for scumreading you convincing. That does not really allay my suspicion.

As for the question, obviously without the line I bolded it's a less suspicious sentence. But I'm not here in this game to give you writing tips on how to appear less suspect. Asking me how to appeal to me does not endear you to me and in fact makes me feel like your primary concern is escaping my suspicion.

You gave a vague pushback against me but seemed to have dropped it. If you had to name a single player you believe to be most likely to be mafia right now, who is it, and why?

I'm not trying to appeal to you or endear myself to you. I was just asking cause I wanted to understand more what exactly made that statement suspicious to you.

It's a toss up between you, dunnstral, greeting, cape. I am pretty comfortable in trusting (or reading as town) butterchurn and I think I'm starting to do the same to zefiend. I'd probably be willing to join the greeting wagon and put my vote there since my townreads and the people I am willing to play with have their votes there for now. I was always a little suspicious of greeting from an emotional vibe sort of abstract way...and I did note that although greeting did not lead the wagon against notknown15 or hammered: he did seem very keen on voting him out. Also he has suspicions on me which I still find sorta weird, which goes for you too. Like I said before I could see you saying these are scum markers/mistakes but I still feel like thinking my posts are

very

scummy is a bit out of left field.

I asked you to name one person and you named literally over half the game while angling toward the biggest wagon, just as you did toward NK15 on day 1 when he got pushed to E-1.


I am getting annoyed now because I don't think Void could be any more blatantly scum if he tried and my words get absolutely no traction while the game is locked around a very, very pointless debate over Greeting

[Greeting]

I am getting annoyed now because I don't think Void could be any more blatantly scum if he tried and my words get absolutely no traction while the game is locked around a very, very pointless debate over Greeting

I'm town and I think it's rather unlikely the scums are hiding amongst you,

Cape90

and

Dunnstral

.

At the moment, I think the scums are amongst these players:

ɀefiend

,

V0ID

,

Dunnstral

. Truthfully, I am down to vote either one of them, but I won't vote for anyone who isn't in that pool.

With one exception in one paticular situation.

Today I've been looking at the timer and we still have 3 and a half days left. This isn't an urgency. But not only is the game stagnating, but it also isn't moving anywhere away from myself with

butterchurn

claiming that I'm trying to weasel out of questioning and suspicion. (Looks like I got my wish of not being an outsider after all. ) I will

not

be around for the end of timer of Day 2 as for me it falls on very early Monday morning.

If by Sunday evening this situation doesn't change and I am put at E-1 then I will hammer myself for the good of the game.

I am indicating this early in case someone accuses me later of throwing the game with this. Truthfully, I don't want to do it, because it will be another townie lost with two scums remaining. So that will be a last resort from me. But if I feel like I have to then I'll do it, because it will give town a better shot to hit someone Day 3 with me no longer around.

[Greeting]

I am getting annoyed now because I don't think Void could be any more blatantly scum if he tried and my words get absolutely no traction while the game is locked around a very, very pointless debate over Greeting

I'm town and I think it's rather unlikely the scums are hiding amongst you,

Cape90

and

Dunnstral

.

At the moment, I think the scums are amongst these players:

ɀefiend

,

V0ID

,

Dunnstral

. Truthfully, I am down to vote either one of them, but I won't vote for anyone who isn't in that pool.

With one exception in one paticular situation.

Today I've been looking at the timer and we still have 3 and a half days left. This isn't an urgency. But not only is the game stagnating, but it also isn't moving anywhere away from myself with

butterchurn

claiming that I'm trying to weasel out of questioning and suspicion. (Looks like I got my wish of not being an outsider after all. ) I will

not

be around for the end of timer of Day 2 as for me it falls on very early Monday morning.

If by Sunday evening this situation doesn't change and I am put at E-1 then I will hammer myself for the good of the game.

I am indicating this early in case someone accuses me later of throwing the game with this. Truthfully, I don't want to do it, because it will be another townie lost with two scums remaining. So that will be a last resort from me. But if I feel like I have to then I'll do it, because it will give town a better shot to hit someone Day 3 with me no longer around.

EBWOP - sorry, I meant

butterchurn

and not

Dunnstral

in the first sentence.

[catboi]

I'm town and I think it's rather unlikely the scums are hiding amongst you, Cape90 and Dunnstral.

When did your view on me change?

[butterchurn]

I've been watching the Void posts, apologies for not engaging with your suspicions of them, catboi, but I was still thinking about them. For a bit I just read him as newbie lacking confidence, but wanted to see if he would make an effort to improve his posting and have more opinions. I didn't want to post about it much because I was curious to see if he would continue to coast and follow along with the general trends if there wasn't much pressure on him and he didn't think he was in danger. He has, and my opinion has changed. I think town at this point would have done more, while scum would likely think they could get away with it. The biggest thing that I notice is that most of the points that he is making against others look specifically to be things that he has made an effort to avoid doing. That reads to me like newbie scum who only has a limited mindset of what things are suspicious, and is trying to both call those things out while avoid doing them himself. I find that newbie town will more often make the same tells that they call others out for, because they are just calling out genuine suspicion and not following any sort of formula. I would be willing to vote here.

[butterchurn]

I'm town and I think it's rather unlikely the scums are hiding amongst you, Cape90 and Dunnstral.

At the moment, I think the scums are amongst these players: ɀefiend, V0ID, Dunnstral.

Why is Dunnstral in both of these lists?

[butterchurn]

Oh, missed the EBWOP. Got it.

[catboi]

I also want to point out that

V0ID

actually

is

lurking, I've seen them online a couple of times, but they rarely ever post. Keeping your RVS vote at this point of the game is just either

really

lazy or not an RVS vote anymore (RVS stands for "random voting stage"). If it's no longer an RVS vote then I see no explanation for it.

Lurking always brings my attention.

Hi. Yeah I have been lurking, mostly checking up on the thread every once in a while on my phone during downtime, and trying to keep track and digest everything (keep word: trying). I thought it would be fine to keep my RVS vote until I was ready to vote someone else for real, I guess I should either unvote or join one of the wagons. This is my first forum mafia game so excuse me for that one.
So some thoughts: I always thought zefiend's posts seemed kind of off, but I leaned more toward that was just probably just his personality. His posts just come off as very strong...or overcompensating in a way. But like I said, could just be part of his style or personality. I am still pretty suspicious of cape.

UNVOTE: butterchurn

As for the notknown 15 vote, greeting makes a pretty good case for it.

There is something I am a bit confused about if someone could clarify for me. If I were to vote notknown15, that is final right then and there correct?
"When the hammer vote is cast, all players, including the eliminated may talk freely until the final vote count and eliminated player's card-flip have been posted." What is the final vote count mean exactly? Does that mean until the deadline?

I want to bring this post back up because it was posted while NK15 was at E-1 and this was literally all void had to say about it - just bland agreement but no actual discussion of or elaboration on why greeting's reasons are good.

[butterchurn]

Also by the way, Greeting's self-hammer call is NAI for me. He's done it before and seems to genuinely believe it's a pro-town move, but I would expect him to do it at some point in his career as scum too. So, no comment, really, and definitely not worth getting into a discussion of whether it's a good idea or not.

[butterchurn]

I don't think whether zefiend is technically a newbie or not really matters as much as how comfortable they are with the game. (The newbie rules are kind of wonky now that it's been brought up, though).

I think Cape is the better vote right now, I don't see the 'conviction', I thought they were scummy day 1, and I don't think their arguments make sense on day 2.

VOTE: Cape90

Dunn, your suspicions at this time (as best as I can gather) included Greeting, Cape, and Void. What made you decide Cape was the "better vote" out of those 3?

[Greeting]

I'm town and I think it's rather unlikely the scums are hiding amongst you, Cape90 and Dunnstral.

When did your view on me change?

It is in the scums interest to steer townies into eliminating other townies and looking as clean as they can while doing it.

The pressure on me is moderately strong and I'm a rather easy target to eliminate today. I feel like if you were scum, you could easily echo

butterchurn

and

ɀefiend

and jump in, putting me at E-1 and making my elimination very likely. Instead, you're coming to my defense, like you did back in Newbie 2082, a game in which both of us were town. That shows that you're really using your knowledge of my play in a town mindset. The scums are undoubetly in a favourable position right now with one PR dead and both of them alive. I think the temptation to easily get a townie out would be too great, especially since in my opinion,

butterchurn

is the main drive of my wagon and my miselimination could make him look bad (and I think he's town).

Of course, there could be a strategy where you, being scum, are pocketing me with hopes that I'll turn the attention of others away from you on Day 3. It is a well-known fact that it's much harder to turn against someone who is friendly towards you. But I think it's unlikely to be happening because I have expressed willingness of pressuring you earlier and my views can, and sometimes do change. Plus, my impact in the game isn't, in my opinion, very strong. So I think this strategy would be moderate risk, uncertain reward.

[Greeting]

So, no comment, really, and definitely not worth getting into a discussion of whether it's a good idea or not.

I actually agree with you and I'd rather not discuss this either. I posted this so that if it comes to it, my actions don't come as a shock to those players who don't know me from earlier games.

[Greeting]

If

ɀefiend

is scum, then the mafia team is in a somewhat awkward situation, where they're trying to hide behind

butterchurn

and try to get the majority of town behind my miselim. They have one more vote, but having both scums on a miselim wagon will look really bad for them when I flip town. It's really interesting that neither

Dunnstral

nor

V0ID

are willing to jump on it.

[catboi]

I'm town and I think it's rather unlikely the scums are hiding amongst you, Cape90 and Dunnstral.

When did your view on me change?

It is in the scums interest to steer townies into eliminating other townies and looking as clean as they can while doing it.

The pressure on me is moderately strong and I'm a rather easy target to eliminate today. I feel like if you were scum, you could easily echo

butterchurn

and

ɀefiend

and jump in, putting me at E-1 and making my elimination very likely. Instead, you're coming to my defense, like you did back in Newbie 2082, a game in which both of us were town. That shows that you're really using your knowledge of my play in a town mindset. The scums are undoubetly in a favourable position right now with one PR dead and both of them alive. I think the temptation to easily get a townie out would be too great, especially since in my opinion,

butterchurn

is the main drive of my wagon and my miselimination could make him look bad (and I think he's town).

Of course, there could be a strategy where you, being scum, are pocketing me with hopes that I'll turn the attention of others away from you on Day 3. It is a well-known fact that it's much harder to turn against someone who is friendly towards you. But I think it's unlikely to be happening because I have expressed willingness of pressuring you earlier and my views can, and sometimes do change. Plus, my impact in the game isn't, in my opinion, very strong. So I think this strategy would be moderate risk, uncertain reward.

Theoretically, why couldn't I be defending you as scum to make myself look better if you do get voted out? As scum here I'd probably feel obligated to defend you because you'd be significantly more likely to call me out if I turned on you. Your assumptions for what scum would do are overly specific and I'm not sure it's all that convincing to me.

[butterchurn]

UNVOTE:

For now. I feel like the new direction of discussion is productive and would like others to weigh in.

[Greeting]

I'm town and I think it's rather unlikely the scums are hiding amongst you, Cape90 and Dunnstral.

When did your view on me change?

It is in the scums interest to steer townies into eliminating other townies and looking as clean as they can while doing it.

The pressure on me is moderately strong and I'm a rather easy target to eliminate today. I feel like if you were scum, you could easily echo

butterchurn

and

ɀefiend

and jump in, putting me at E-1 and making my elimination very likely. Instead, you're coming to my defense, like you did back in Newbie 2082, a game in which both of us were town. That shows that you're really using your knowledge of my play in a town mindset. The scums are undoubetly in a favourable position right now with one PR dead and both of them alive. I think the temptation to easily get a townie out would be too great, especially since in my opinion,

butterchurn

is the main drive of my wagon and my miselimination could make him look bad (and I think he's town).

Of course, there could be a strategy where you, being scum, are pocketing me with hopes that I'll turn the attention of others away from you on Day 3. It is a well-known fact that it's much harder to turn against someone who is friendly towards you. But I think it's unlikely to be happening because I have expressed willingness of pressuring you earlier and my views can, and sometimes do change. Plus, my impact in the game isn't, in my opinion, very strong. So I think this strategy would be moderate risk, uncertain reward.

Theoretically, why couldn't I be defending you as scum to make myself look better if you do get voted out? As scum here I'd probably feel obligated to defend you because you'd be significantly more likely to call me out if I turned on you. Your assumptions for what scum would do are overly specific and I'm not sure it's all that convincing to me.

This is true, but is contradicted by your post 509, where you're pushing me to expand on something I didn't speak of at all. Making such a post isn't in the scum interest either in this scenario. If you were scum you'd be happy that a townie is town reading you before they get hammered and you'd look cleaner defending me.

[catboi]

Think you're being overly generous to me but whatever, answer is acceptable enough that I will continue to give you a pass.

Working on something a little different to try to give myself a fresh perspective on the game, will see if I can get to it in a bit

[V0ID]

I see, thanks for explaining more. Does zefiend's assessment of his uneasy feeling that butterchurn might be scum despite thinking butterchurn is most likely town and playing a town game also in that same vein? As in, does that also ring some scum bells for you? If I had said "I am willing to work with butterchurn, he seems more and more town the more the game goes on and as I re-read his old posts" but without (now looking back on it, unnecessary) bolded line of the "there is the obvious possibility that butterchurn is scum playing a very convincing game." made you feel not as bad about me as scum?
Sure I am struggling to produce reads maybe...it is my first game after all. I think it is worth noting that you also have been pointed out for a lot of "meh" "shrug" posts by at least 2 users, I noted but forget exactly when and who. The first person you seem to be going hard at is me, for reasons I understand but I don't find all that convincing.

I would be surprised if you admitted to finding my own reasons for scumreading you convincing. That does not really allay my suspicion.

As for the question, obviously without the line I bolded it's a less suspicious sentence. But I'm not here in this game to give you writing tips on how to appear less suspect. Asking me how to appeal to me does not endear you to me and in fact makes me feel like your primary concern is escaping my suspicion.

You gave a vague pushback against me but seemed to have dropped it. If you had to name a single player you believe to be most likely to be mafia right now, who is it, and why?

I'm not trying to appeal to you or endear myself to you. I was just asking cause I wanted to understand more what exactly made that statement suspicious to you.

It's a toss up between you, dunnstral, greeting, cape. I am pretty comfortable in trusting (or reading as town) butterchurn and I think I'm starting to do the same to zefiend. I'd probably be willing to join the greeting wagon and put my vote there since my townreads and the people I am willing to play with have their votes there for now. I was always a little suspicious of greeting from an emotional vibe sort of abstract way...

and I did note that although greeting did not lead the wagon against notknown15 or hammered: he did seem very keen on voting him out.

Also he has suspicions on me which I still find sorta weird, which goes for you too. Like I said before I could see you saying these are scum markers/mistakes but I still feel like thinking my posts are

very

scummy is a bit out of left field.

What has the bolded and underlined sentence have to do with anything? What is its' relevance? Who "leads" a wagon?

It's just something I made a mental note of that you seemed to be the most vocal and adamant part of the notknown elim. I could see that being a bold scum play. Also, in my very casual very limited experience with irl mafia I get a red flag when someone proclaims: I am willing to be voted out for the good of the town. which I think you have posted twice so far.

As for catboi, in the same vein of a bold scumplay, I can't help but think that maybe him pointing out all my mistakes and scum markers (which are fair observations by the way) is a way to get a miselim on me. I think the general consensus is that scum seem to be hiding pretty well and there is nothing very obvious here... But my posts apparently have obvious mistakes and tells which people are reading as scum markers so catboi is using that. Because they are pretty transparent mistakes and fair observations, it is easy for catboi to throw it on me.

[Greeting]

It's just something I made a mental note of that you seemed to be the most vocal and adamant part of the notknown elim. I could see that being a bold scum play. Also, in my very casual very limited experience with irl mafia I get a red flag when someone proclaims: I am willing to be voted out for the good of the town. which I think you have posted twice so far.

I've done it before as town in both Newbie 2082 and Newbie 2084.