biancospino wrote: ↑
Hello, me again.
I had this idea for a wacky 13p mini Normal. I don't think I will /in to mod again for at least a month or so, but I figured I could still ask for it to be reviewed in advance?
Anyway,
Thanks!
biancospino wrote: ↑
Hi,
my schedule cleared a bit so I'm /in'ing to mod.
Also, I've thought a bit about the setup and I want to change the Voyeurs to Visitors and make the Unstoppable disloyal (so that they can't accidentally kill the Traitor).
So, the idea here is to have multiple namely strong investigatives that in actuality are each substantially weakened. Both the Jailkeeper and the Watcher may get a (pseudo)guilty on exactly one of the Wolves, only if that particular Wolf kills, and only if the other is still alive, and the TA can potentially get a guilty on both but only if the third one is still alive, and to balance that they can get a strong false inno on that third one. On the whole, in whatever order the Wolves are taken down, the last one can in no way be guilted by mech, and one of them is effectly impossible to guilty by any role in the setup.
Since there is a lot of town power anyway, to counterbalance I added some red herrings in the false Enablers and a couple of identical TPR (ideally something useless, I thought Visitors but maybe Checkers would be better to avoid giving out feel-bad roles?).
The false Enabler are supposed to seem believable to their holders, but to be unbelievable to exist toghether with an actual existing role, so to maximize the possibility that town counterclaims itself. The info on the majority of enablers not being false serves to increase facilitate that.
While I like the idea, I feel like a setup of almost exclusively enablers crosses the line into being more of a theme mechanic. Will wait for Datisi's feedback there though.
Also hi Dats, I'm actually doing a Mini because you asked but seems like you won't actually be able to play it :/
well, your mini would be next in line to be run, and team mafia is starting Soon, and i'm really not able to play in more than one game at the time anymore :/ and i wanted to at least be present for the review
reading the setup now
I will straight up disregard all reason if you have a PR dream again. You can come back and be like, “I dreamt that Locke is a N2 Bulletproof Multitasking Cop and Self-Targeting Doctor,” and I will go, “Okay, Locke kill it is then.”
i love the idea of this setup. i really do. however, with both the existence of a ton of enablers, and the lazy traitor (i love that role btw), AND the possibility of the lazy traitor becoming a last-scum-standing groupscum WHILE being false-innoed...
i don't think this can be a normal setup, even with the complex modifier public.
the difference between "a setup with a lot of power roles" and "a setup with a lot of power roles, but a lot of them are enabled" is that the latter has many many more moving parts in it, which makes it more difficult to balance, and more confusing to play.
and as it stands, i think the town is way too weak here - and they're weak in a way where "adding more power roles" just doesn't fix the issue, because it pushes the setup even further from the realm of "normal".
i think a normal setup that has the mechanic of "a lot of enablers" can definitely be made. but it would have to be a bit simplified.
I will straight up disregard all reason if you have a PR dream again. You can come back and be like, “I dreamt that Locke is a N2 Bulletproof Multitasking Cop and Self-Targeting Doctor,” and I will go, “Okay, Locke kill it is then.”
What if, I change the Visitors back to Voyeurs (that way they can possibly verify the Watcher; or maybe even full RoleWatchers?), remove the Track from the Traitor, and make the TA a Bulletproof-Enabler instead of Tracker-Enabler so that they be hinted of the existence of a Traitor? Or maybe even straight out informing them that one exist
if the lazy traitor were to work with a traffic analyst, i think they would have to be informed that they can get a false inno.
but i don't think that fixes the "this setup is too mechanically heavy" issue
I will straight up disregard all reason if you have a PR dream again. You can come back and be like, “I dreamt that Locke is a N2 Bulletproof Multitasking Cop and Self-Targeting Doctor,” and I will go, “Okay, Locke kill it is then.”
Mhm, I see. Perhaps this would be better just run as a theme? My problem is the Traitor kinda needs to be lazy otherwise there is the nightmare scenario that the Watcher and TA find the two main wolves N1 and N2 and it's autowin for the Village
i mean, my thoughts were along the lines of removing the unstoppable and the ninja from the scumteam, rather than removing the traitor. and potentially removing the red herring enablers from the town
that was my idea of simplifying the setup, at least
would still need to hear mastina's thoughts, tho
I will straight up disregard all reason if you have a PR dream again. You can come back and be like, “I dreamt that Locke is a N2 Bulletproof Multitasking Cop and Self-Targeting Doctor,” and I will go, “Okay, Locke kill it is then.”
but you can't balance the game by assuming the best case but unlikely scenario for town will happen
(to be clear, i'm not saying the setup without unstoppable/ninja would necessarily be balanced, i haven't thought through it fully yet, and it'd be up to mastina anyway. but it is a potential way to tone down the complexity of the setup, which is our first goal here. actual balance discussion happens after that)
I will straight up disregard all reason if you have a PR dream again. You can come back and be like, “I dreamt that Locke is a N2 Bulletproof Multitasking Cop and Self-Targeting Doctor,” and I will go, “Okay, Locke kill it is then.”
Being honest, and that may sound a bit silly, the general concept of W-Enabler Ninja + Jk-Enabler Unstoppabler vs W + JK was really the core idea around which I plotted everything else, so if we remove that I wouldn't feel the setup to be really mine
if that is the core idea, there might be a way to make the setup simpler elsewhere. i''ll wait to see what mastina thinks
I will straight up disregard all reason if you have a PR dream again. You can come back and be like, “I dreamt that Locke is a N2 Bulletproof Multitasking Cop and Self-Targeting Doctor,” and I will go, “Okay, Locke kill it is then.”
I'm too dumb rn to process changes to the setup in words, could the proposed ideas of changes you're thinking of be typed out? (That format my brain can process.)
In post 20, mastina wrote:
I'm a bit tired but first instinct is this is scumsided.
You'll probably going to reject this on the stop but. What if I replaced one VT with a second novice TA? (and maybe simplify the Alien-Enabler thing, the "loyal" made more sense in the og version)
bianco, would you be satisfied with a setup whose only enablers are the jailkeeper enabler and the watcher enabler?
mastina, do you think a setup like the one in 19 or 21 would be passable as normal, considering the number of enablers it has? i'm leaning on "no", but i'm not sure if i'm being too strict
I will straight up disregard all reason if you have a PR dream again. You can come back and be like, “I dreamt that Locke is a N2 Bulletproof Multitasking Cop and Self-Targeting Doctor,” and I will go, “Okay, Locke kill it is then.”
In post 22, Datisi wrote:
bianco, would you be satisfied with a setup whose only enablers are the jailkeeper enabler and the watcher enabler?
Yes, as long as there is some alternative mechanism to prevent the game being auto'ed by mech alone by N2. TA-Enabler lazy Traitor + TA seemed like a way to assure that which jived well with the rest of the setup, but I would be satisfied with alternative mechanisms, albeit perhaps I wouldn't find them as aestetically pleasing.
To that purpose, the town Enablers can be safely cut, however I do worry that the town PRs may become a self-confirming claim without some manner of confounding factor. If the problem is that an excessive amount of Enablers is too gimmicky, what if the town Enabler was turned into an Informed Alien-Finder Neapolitan-Finder Tracker-Finder (with the info "at least a majority of linked roles are linked to an existing role"), and at this point with multitasking off by default?