Newbie 2125 - Postgame

[ChicagoTypewriter]

You know what? Screw it. Day's over, I'm achieving nothing right now by fighting. I'll save it for tomorrow if we have one, post game if we don't.

[JasonWazza]

All the ad hominem attacks do nothing to further the gamestate, and if you are town, acting like KKFC has already been eliminated and flipped green

today

, on Day 3; instead of properly saving the argument for tomorrow is poor play. You are solving nothing.

I mean if KFC is doing a bit, he stayed committed (and all props to him for that committal), but I tend to expect that after a hammer you get a more often then not truthful flipped player talking.

Also my point wasn't Ad Hominem at all, if you were refering to my bit, I was actually explicitly listing stuff that the Mason's had done.

[JasonWazza]

Like to be clear, for town's sake, Leek should be actually posting the info, so that we aren't going into a potential D4 with just the words of the mason's, and actually have something solid to work off.

And shouldn't have hammered before that was the case but that's a discussion for postgame.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

And shouldn't have hammered before that was the case but that's a discussion for postgame.

You

do

understand how that sounds coming from someone who placed KKFC in E-1, right?

[JasonWazza]

VOTE: KatyKimFanClub

For when Leek thinks they have given enough information, and are ready to proceed.

I expected Leek to actually GIVE information, so yeah i put KFC at E-1, Leek made it sound like they were going to actually give information, and not just overall thoughts

[ChicagoTypewriter]

I expected Leek to actually GIVE information, so yeah i put KFC at E-1, Leek made it sound like they were going to actually give information, and not just overall thoughts

So you're whining about how little Leek is doing on the one hand, yet you were perfectly content to leave the day's decision up to his discretion. Do you not see how that comes across as slightly hypocritical?

[JasonWazza]

I expected Leek to actually GIVE information, so yeah i put KFC at E-1, Leek made it sound like they were going to actually give information, and not just overall thoughts

So you're whining about how little Leek is doing on the one hand, yet you were perfectly content to leave the day's decision up to his discretion. Do you not see how that comes across as slightly hypocritical?

his the fucking confirmed town, so yes i think he should hold discretion on when the lim happens, how exactly does that make it hypocritical to have expected him to actually provide information?

[Alianna]

3.FINAL

Votecount 3.FINAL

KatyKimFanClub (ELIMINATED): JasonWazza, Bazuf, SzmarzLeek

Not Voting (2): KatyKimFanClub, ChicagoTypewriter

With 5 players alive, it took 3 votes to secure an elimination.

[Alianna]

KatyKimFanClub has been eliminated. He was a

Vanilla Townie

.

It is now Night 3. The night deadline is in (expired on 2023-07-06 13:53:48).

The night can end early if all living players request it.

[Alianna]

Fast night has been requested.

SzmarzLeek has been killed. He was a

Town Mason

.

It is now Day 4.

[Alianna]

4.00

Votecount 4.00

Not Voting (3): Bazuf, ChicagoTypewriter, JasonWazza

With 3 players alive, it takes 2 votes to secure an elimination.

The day deadline is in (expired on 2023-07-12 13:41:52).

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Okay, so are we going to discuss things...? I'm willing to take a deep breath, step back, and iso; but I'm not going to do it if people are just going to go straight in off-the-cuff.

[JasonWazza]

So this is why i wanted to see the info Leek/BB had collated, because personally I want to hard clear Bazuf, but apparently Leek/BB had something that clears CT, but Leek boiled it down to "Dragon looked at CT at one point" though I can't imagine that is the only reason BB would hard clear CT. (that just seems like too dumb an overall reason)

I still haven't found much that CT/Dragon did to cancel out what would be a team pairing, but maybe I'm just overlooking that Bazuf just hard bussed their partner (should be unlikely, but is possible if Newb scum doesn't realize how powerful and needed the Roleblocker is)

I'm going to have to do a full re-read of this game, because I'm really paranoid that I'm gonna get this one wrong.

[Bazuf]

I think we all need to reread this game.
I've skim it a couple of times, but I also need to reread it properly some more times.
I already have some theories and questions, but first things first...

How likely do you think it would be for me to be scum?
I mean, seriously... hardbussing my team mate from the beginning. How do you think that conversation would go between us?
And why would I bus him and not the other way around?
I don't think that would make much sense.
In fact, I was thinking that I'm so confirmed town that I might have been night killed yesterday...

(I was thinking about this, and this could have been a strategy... Leek was pointing that Jason was scum, so maybe scum!CT could have kept him alive and assure his vote on Jason, for example).

So, if you're ok, I'd like to hear your theories/questions first, and then I'll present my own.

[JasonWazza]

I mean I can only talk from Jason Town Perspective here, but with Leek/BB basically hard saying that CT was town, I feel I have to question everything I know (i haven't had the chance to re-read yet though).

It seems somewhat weird for Town!CT to need to talk this out, but Scum!CT would want to keep his options open in case I decide to turn onto Bazuf.

But again, my paranoia is in overdrive because I know I'm town, and I think I need to fully re-analyze this game from the start because of that.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Okay, so from my perspective, both of you were on the DragonEater70 E-1 bandwagon for Day 1, so by necessity, one of the scum was in fact voting for the roleblocker, which seems a little odd, to be certain, but once you have eliminated everything else, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truth.

I'm be very surprised if the Day 1 nightkill was anything other than an attempt to eliminate town pr. Why wasn't BBmolla targeted? Well, there's a number of likely reasons for it, so I'll keep that assumption, and then the Day 2 and Day 3 nightkills were bog-standard once the Masons came out, so nightkill analysis will get us all nowhere, I think we can agree on that.

It seems somewhat weird for Town!CT to need to talk this out, but Scum!CT would want to keep his options open in case I decide to turn onto Bazuf.

I'm not actually sure this is weird, I think it's very standard for town to want to spend time during elo. There was no chance of me voting you off the cuff, unless you decided to come at me first, but given that hasn't happened, I suppose it's elo time.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

So, if you're ok, I'd like to hear your theories/questions first, and then I'll present my own.

I feel like I want to hear from you first, given that JasonWazza and I have both approximately tripled your post count. I don't have a lot to go on and I'd like to hear your thoughts on the current gamestate.

[Bazuf]

Just to be clear, the fact that I have less posts mean absolutely nothing, and its weird to use that as an argument at this point of the game.

But I guess this is a good starting point, so here we go…

Okay, so from my perspective, both of you were on the DragonEater70 E-1 bandwagon for Day 1, so by necessity, one of the scum was in fact voting for the roleblocker, which seems a little odd, to be certain, but once you have eliminated everything else, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truth.

Yeah, but from other perspectives, you were the only one that wasn't voting for Dragon, so if you are scum, means the scum was not voting on the roleblocker.

Also, Jason was on the Dragon/happy wagon at some point, but Egix wasn’t… and when Jason came into the game he voted Leek, and then was trying to push a wagon on BB, putting happy on E-1 for only a short period of time…
But Jason was mostly pushing a BB wagon.

Differently, I always parked my vote on Dragon/happy and even put him on E-1 pretty early in the game.

I mean, I know there’s no definitives playing this game, but why in the world would I put my scum partner in this situation right of the bat?
It doesn’t make sense to me…

I'm be very surprised if the Day 1 nightkill was anything other than an attempt to eliminate town pr. Why wasn't BBmolla targeted? Well, there's a number of likely reasons for it, so I'll keep that assumption, and then the Day 2 and Day 3 nightkills were bog-standard once the Masons came out, so nightkill analysis will get us all nowhere, I think we can agree on that.

Its pretty obvious to me that BB wasn’t going to be targeted that night, and I think that you and Jason know that pretty well too.

From the scum team perspective, seeing BB making that hammer, they sure have assumed that he was a PR.
Their thinking was “but which PR?”… “What if he’s the cop and there’s a doctor?”.
So, I’m sure they assumed that he was a cop or a Mason, but didn’t want to risk trying to kill him and him being protected by the doctor.
They would get information about his role on D-2 or at worst he would be limmed that day.

For N-1 they had a lot to gain on killing someone else, because it was a sure hit.
If there was a doctor, he could also assume that BB was a PR and protect him (I would have done it).
So they going somewhere else meant hitting a VT or other PR (doctor or other mason).

The better question is: why did they target Delta?
Did they thought he could be a PR? Because he was basically being townread by almost everyone? Because he was a pushy player that could bring them troubles during the day? I think that’s worth discussing…


Also…
@Jason, please take a look at Chicago votes and tell me if you see something strange…

[JasonWazza]

From the scum team perspective, seeing BB making that hammer, they sure have assumed that he was a PR.
Their thinking was “but which PR?”… “What if he’s the cop and there’s a doctor?”.
So, I’m sure they assumed that he was a cop or a Mason, but didn’t want to risk trying to kill him and him being protected by the doctor.
They would get information about his role on D-2 or at worst he would be limmed that day.

For N-1 they had a lot to gain on killing someone else, because it was a sure hit.
If there was a doctor, he could also assume that BB was a PR and protect him (I would have done it).
So they going somewhere else meant hitting a VT or other PR (doctor or other mason).

Just want to respond to this, a doctor should never have protected BB there, because for all intents and purposes that hammer looks like a scum hammer to town, and a PR hammer to scum. (maybe i'm wrong and some people thought BB was a Town PR for that, but common thought would put him as scum over PR.)

@Jason, please take a look at Chicago votes and tell me if you see something strange…

This might sound haha funny but seriously, what votes?

CT is one of those people that just don't vote, and the votes are as follows.

Parked vote on Camel for D1.
Vote and unvote BB start of D2 (i did the same thing so this is kinda a non-issue)
Placed Happy in self-hammer range with a vote.

That's just unironically all the votes.

[JasonWazza]

But Jason was mostly pushing a BB wagon.

Also regarding this part specifically, Happy was always going to be my backup wagon, if BB doesn't quick hammer, and we play that out normally, there is a decent chance Happy gets limmed D1 instead.

[Bazuf]

Just want to respond to this, a doctor should never have protected BB there, because for all intents and purposes that hammer looks like a scum hammer to town, and a PR hammer to scum. (maybe i'm wrong and some people thought BB was a Town PR for that, but common thought would put him as scum over PR.)

There’s no point wasting time here… we can argue that common sense says that’s a scum move, or that someone could think that’d be weird for scum to hammer like that on D-1. This is not important right now.

Either way you think about that, the conclusion is that BB would never be the NK there.
So why was Delta the chosen NK?


Regarding CT votes:
It is just curious that his vote and happy are almost always in the same place.
Especially on camel, which had the Masons vote, KKFC (VT) and happy (scum).

I’m not thinking much about it, but it is curious.

More relevant to think about are the exchanges between Chicago and Dragon.
Dragon voted on Chicago (maybe still kinda RVS??)
And Chicago said that there were plenty of reasons to find Dragon scummy.
If they were scum partners would they do that?

While this, Dragon is being put to E-1 and Egix doesn’t say anything…
And Jason enters the game, and votes Leek, not addressing the wagon on Dragon/happy…


In fact, reading all the game, we don’t see much of an exchange between Jason and happy.
Jason asks for thoughts and opinions of other players, but not happy…

Jason you said that happy was your backup wagon, and that seems a fairly convenient thing for scum to say.
I honestly was not seeing much of a case for a BB wagon and the chances were fairly better for a happy wagon.
So at this point I’m leaning towards a scum!Jason.

Chicago, what do you think?

[JasonWazza]

Jason asks for thoughts and opinions of other players, but not happy…

I mean that's more due to my opinion of Happy, and the fact that he more or less came off as a troll in the first game i had played with him, to the point where i wouldn't know how to accurately sort him based off of asking him questions. (and you don't always have to ask questions of someone to get a read on them.)

Jason you said that happy was your backup wagon, and that seems a fairly convenient thing for scum to say.
I honestly was not seeing much of a case for a BB wagon and the chances were fairly better for a happy wagon.

I thought BB was scum, not sure exactly what you want me to say here, turned out he just played Mason like a scummy player (at least to me).

And yes there was a better chance at a happy wagon, but i wanted to try and get more information by trying to push a wagon on BB, especially since several players in this game have sticky vote syndrome, and i find it harder to get stuff out of people who keep their vote overly stagnant. (shows less of their actual mindset, and generally speaking, high movement of votes benefits town overall)

List of players that weren't moving votes a lot;
Bazuf
CT
KFC
Leek
and BB to a lesser extent.

Like seriously, you all need to start using your vote more.

[JasonWazza]

Chicago, what do you think?

Also why are you so focused on trying to work out if CT is onboard with Jason!Scum rather then just going based on your read?

Are you worried that CT might end up voting you instead of me?

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Parked vote on Camel for D1.

I still think it was an appropriate move under the circumstances, though I don't appreciate the flash-hammer that the Masons pulled.

Vote and unvote BB start of D2 (i did the same thing so this is kinda a non-issue)

Yup. Vote was appropiate.

Placed Happy in self-hammer range with a vote.

I'm not sure why you're using 'self-hammer' as a euphemism for E-1, but whatever. I stand by that vote too, it let me determine that iamveryhappy was scum.

Also regarding this part specifically, Happy was always going to be my backup wagon, if BB doesn't quick hammer, and we play that out normally, there is a decent chance Happy gets limmed D1 instead.

Interesting. I iso'd you, but that wasn't the impression I got that iamveryhappy was your backup wagon. Could you clarify this?

More relevant to think about are the exchanges between Chicago and Dragon.
Dragon voted on Chicago (maybe still kinda RVS??)
And Chicago said that there were plenty of reasons to find Dragon scummy.
If they were scum partners would they do that?

While this, Dragon is being put to E-1 and Egix doesn’t say anything…
And Jason enters the game, and votes Leek, not addressing the wagon on Dragon/happy…

I remember thinking the Leek vote was very odd, but I chalked it up to JasonWazza being a newcomer to the gamestate, and now I'm thinking maybe I shouldn't have. It's certainly odd, but not definitively odd.

Jason you said that happy was your backup wagon, and that seems a fairly convenient thing for scum to say.
I honestly was not seeing much of a case for a BB wagon and the chances were fairly better for a happy wagon.
So at this point I’m leaning towards a scum!Jason.

Chicago, what do you think?

I have the same concern about this that you do, this seems to be a rather safe assertion at this stage of the game without much evidence, though that evidence is an E-1 vote; while BBmolla was active and scumreading iamveryhappy, risking a possible hammer (though the vote was withdrawn). Still, all things considered and by that I mean JasonWazza's behavior on Day 3 especially, I'm leaning towards a scum!Jason.

[ChicagoTypewriter]

Like seriously, you all need to start using your vote more.

No, I don't think so, though this might be a playstyle clash. One of my concerns right now is some behavior of yours which is coming across as scummy to me might just be a playstyle variation.