Newbie 2083: Viae Romanae - End!

[kennyk]

Hello to all and let's have some fun here.

And a special hello to ssbm_Kyouko. Happy scumday!

And to get things started I

VOTE: floatingmay

With a name like that you don't need roads. So you clearly must be scum.

[kennyk]

Alright, I'm here.

Let's have a nice clean game, shall we?

VOTE: kennyk

Why kennyk?

And why did you choose to ask him?

As far as I can see, three out of five persons didn't specify, why they voted. And the other two gave lame excuses for a vote (one being me).

[kennyk]

Yes we’ve done this song and dance.

Also, I have officially reached 20 consecutive games as Town (completed). I have flipped in another one but I will not speak to that one just yet.

So is the streak ending in this game? (This is more like a rhethorical question with a little giggle-factor. But if you honestly can answer it with "yes", please do so )

[kennyk]

I am not yet sure what to make of this whole val/koba/yeezys thing. I doubt it is a T vs S+S thing as this would be very gutsy for scum. But all aother constellations are possible from my POV (even S vs S+T). As the mathematical probability is very high, I would assume there is scum in this battle but a total townie thing is also possible.

I guess I will have to reread this part of conversation later on and hope to get a better view on things. Until then I won't change my vote on any of those participants. I am curious on Val's reaction on the E-2 though.

[kennyk]

I am not yet sure what to make of this whole val/koba/yeezys thing. I doubt it is a T vs S+S thing as this would be very gutsy for scum. But all aother constellations are possible from my POV (even S vs S+T). As the mathematical probability is very high, I would assume there is scum in this battle but a total townie thing is also possible.

I guess I will have to reread this part of conversation later on and hope to get a better view on things. Until then I won't change my vote on any of those participants. I am curious on Val's reaction on the E-2 though.

i don't understand

I guess you mean the first part (right?). So the first real skirmish of this game is between you and koba on one side and val on the other.

I doubt that scum (or S for short) would team up and go on a town (or T for short) player so early. It is possible that val and either you or koba are scum, or one or none of you three is scum.

But because of the mathematical probabilities it is likely that one of you is scum. From my point of view (POV) 1/4 of you is scum (2 out of 8). So if three out of those eight are in a small fight, it has probability of one of them being scum that is not neglectable.

[kennyk]

I am not yet sure what to make of this whole val/koba/yeezys thing. I doubt it is a T vs S+S thing as this would be very gutsy for scum. But all aother constellations are possible from my POV (even S vs S+T). As the mathematical probability is very high, I would assume there is scum in this battle but a total townie thing is also possible.

I guess I will have to reread this part of conversation later on and hope to get a better view on things. Until then I won't change my vote on any of those participants. I am curious on Val's reaction on the E-2 though.

i don't understand

I guess you mean the first part (right?). So the first real skirmish of this game is between you and koba on one side and val on the other.

I doubt that scum (or S for short) would team up and go on a town (or T for short) player so early. It is possible that val and either you or koba are scum, or one or none of you three is scum.

But because of the mathematical probabilities it is likely that one of you is scum. From my point of view (POV) 1/4 of you is scum (2 out of 8). So if three out of those eight are in a small fight, it has probability of one of them being scum that is not neglectable.

oh okay
also "from my pov there are 2 scum" lol the thread says there are two

The setup is "two out of nine" are scum. From my POV it is two out of eight as I know I am town (if you believe me or not is a whole different thing). The same is true for any other townie (except for the setup with masons, where the ratio is 2 of 7).

[kennyk]

so far floatingmay & fixer as well as kenny seem decently towny

Why do you come to this conclusion? It is not that I contradict your read (especially concerning one person ), but I like to know your way of thought.

[kennyk]

ew ew ew why does mafiascum make me post twice

Maybe you do it deliberately to highten your post count.

[kennyk]

anyways can we get some activity
floatingmay why do u think kenny is scum

overexplaining in 147; 148 sounds kind of detached (?); 148 and 165 contain math

Post 147 might look a bit overexplained but I have experienced some other games where posts meant to be funny were taken serious. So I thought better safe than sorry and explained it.
Post 148 (you got the wrong post linked there btw.) I don't know what you mean with detached.
Post 165 contains a little math. Math is what got me to playing mafia in the first place (over at greylabyrinth more than 15 years ago). So if using mathematical evidence looks scummy for you I add up 2 and 2 and point a finger of suspicion in your direction.

[kennyk]

i will ask you first for an explaination why they are scum then because i dont believe that

imagine not believing a mafia player, smh my head

i did say i scumread them already in 137

i don’t know exactly why you townread yeezys but you’re probably at least a little biased here since yeezys has you as hard town (85, 159) and has generally been defending you, attacking your attackers, echoing your reads and word choice, interacting with you, etc

and they already have four townreads, all of which are unexplained, i think? you plus myself, fixer, and kenny (161). would that not make the remaining mafia obvious to them? their townread on kenny is especially odd since it comes right after 152 (which kenny responded to extremely quickly. at that point they only had four total posts and one of them was a response to yeezys) and 158

they claim to have a boring role (161) which if they’re vt is completely false. friendly reminder that my opinions are facts ) also it just feels like a really contrived response, like if i were asked that i’d say good or something instead of boring

something about 114 sounds off. i’m not sure how but it kind of feels like this statement is implying something alignment related?

151 wasn’t an actual defense; it didn’t even make up whole post. still waiting on your defense yeezys, unless koba does it for you ofc

and like i said in 130, their actions don’t match their description of their own townplay

didn’t see this the first time sorry, i tend to skip lines a lot when reading but yeezys would you be willing to get back into mafia.gg if you were like, part of a server that hosted private games with nonarcade setups?

and if all else fails

maybe yeezy’s scum but forgot they were scum again so that’s why their actions seem towny to you!

three of these run-on sentences start with and :') i tried my best to coalesce these into proper paragraphs but my thoughts are way too disjointed for that

There is so much wrong with this post.

First, I don't see anything resembling a read in 137. And I don't see anything like a read around this post number.

Second, I have my own idea about the connection between Koba and yeezys. I kind of have the feeling you do have the same idea, too, but yoou are trying to use it in a quite different way.

Third, my response to yeesys was quick and I didn't have many posts at that stage (there aren't that many now either, but that is something I have deficits in every game). But I was online coincidently shortly after the post. So I responded. But if it pleases you I might from now on wait 24 hours with every respond (no I won't).

Forth, there is no mentioning of a boring role in post 161. Maybe you meant 159? But there is no mentioning of a boring role either. Just that they are bored. Which is a completely different thing.

This looks very much like trying to make up a case out of thin air. After my vote on you was ranodm and my finger of suspicion because of your aversion to math halfway fun, I am now quite confident with my vote on you.

[kennyk]

yeezys well

yeezys is fucking blatant town lmfao

i dont think an explaination is needed

i would tell you to watch your language but then i'd
a) be a hypocrite
b) fuck shit fuck (aka you can swear whenever you want to)

At least there is no one named "blatant town lmfao" in this game. (Sorry, but I had to do this one)

[kennyk]

?????????????????????????????????????????????????
why are you pulling reasons otu of your ass to scumread me

Maybe floatingmay wants to read you scum because they are scum.

[kennyk]

Is that a serious SR on floatingmay? I may need reasons for that. That would be diabolical.

Yes, I am seriously SRing floatingmay. As stated earlier I had three posts with reasons against them. The first was my vote in the RVS which had no reason behind it at all (the reason given is obviously a no-reason). Then there was my answer to the "I don't like math"-post. As stated I was a little sus at that point. But than there was this massive accusation against yeezys that felt so wrong. I did this post 238. I guess I explained my SR on them enough there.

[kennyk]

First, I don't see anything resembling a read in 137. And I don't see anything like a read around this post number.

Second, I have my own idea about the connection between Koba and yeezys. I kind of have the feeling you do have the same idea, too, but yoou are trying to use it in a quite different way.

Third, my response to yeesys was quick and I didn't have many posts at that stage (there aren't that many now either, but that is something I have deficits in every game). But I was online coincidently shortly after the post. So I responded. But if it pleases you I might from now on wait 24 hours with every respond (no I won't).

Forth, there is no mentioning of a boring role in post 161. Maybe you meant 159? But there is no mentioning of a boring role either. Just that they are bored. Which is a completely different thing.

This looks very much like trying to make up a case out of thin air. After my vote on you was ranodm and my finger of suspicion because of your aversion to math halfway fun, I am now quite confident with my vote on you.

in 137, i asked yeezys how they would feel if i voted them, which i wouldn't do unless i was considering voting them, and at any rate i'm not sure why you're responding to this part

what's your idea about the connection between koba and yeezys? what makes you think i have the same idea? how do you think i am trying to use said idea?

i meant 79, sorry about that

I respond to anything I think is strange. Just as you would.

As to the idea about the connection: At the point of that post my idea was that Koba and yeezys were masons. The reasons for this were for example the very first post of Koba where they dropped the word mason. Then there was this thing that you seem to have felt, too: the unision in their actions. Those could be scumplay, but that would be very bad play in my eyes, as it ties them together too much and too early.

Assuming you were scum and also assuming you came to the same conclusion, you might have hoped no one else saw this possibility. In that case you could use it to miselim one of the masons d1.

As things evolved after my post, I still believe Koba is a mason, but with this post 275, I guess it is not with yeezys.

But still my read on you hasn't changed. There were just too many things that didn't feel good.

[kennyk]

point what posts give you that vibe.

frankly - i dont think you are genuine with this and seem to be working backwards from a conclusion.

@floatingmay i will not get afked out dw ajunhdby

so back to the TR on kenny i decided to backtrack and ISO their posts instead of going on the reasoning i gave earlier. ( - which kinda WAS backtracking in a way like koba said, but it was just reasons on why they COULD be scum early on ! i actually should've just put them as null along with yeezys but it's too late to edit post, sigh )

the vibes that i get from them as town as i read posts? #41 and #165's whole math thing, but i get an odd vibe from #148 now that I actually go ahead and read back. it feels like they're gamesolving but not really gamesolving at the same time? In #238 it looks like they do in fact SR may as they've mentioned it twice by now, ( or thrice if you count their RVS ) but i don't wanna get this wrong, so kenny if you don't nullread everyone like i do could you perhaps give out your reads soon?

also hard nullread on may that is going to change very soon and i SR ssbm! reasons coming at a later post unless i change my mind due to info from them/kenny.
( hey ssbm could you also give your reads if you may i would like to know )

this post might come in at a bad time since i'm addressing an older post but yea

As can seen on my previous posts, I am SRing floatingmay.
DkKoba and ssbm_Kyouko are town as they are masons in my eyes (with Kobes softclaims and all and no counterclaim by any other town PR)
yeezys has a townlean. I am willing to accept Kobes read there. It seems plausible.
fixer also is a townlean for me. I have not much more to give than gutfeelings (or is it just that I am hungry?) about the way they post.
MBot, Andresvmb and Val89 are null for me.

[kennyk]

Is it usual practise to openly discuss who may or may not be a PR on the other sites you have played on, kenny?

I think if a town PR were to counterclaim in response to Kobes 'softclaims', if that's what they were, that would be somewhat of a own-gaol in that Koba would likely just say "haha, I wasn't claiming mason, just messing around", and we have an outted PR on D1 with a target on their back for what? Does Koba get eliminated anyway? Drawing a CC while still maintaining some doubt about whether Koba was

trying

to do so might well be the motivation for doing that, and you aren't helping.

If that's your only reason for reading Koba town, I would strongly suggest you reconsider.

As I played on greylabyrinth 15 years ago it isn't a good reference on how to play here and now.

If Koba would really react as you say, we would have gained a lot. I would change my vote onto them without further thinking as playing like that would be at least antitown.

And to add things to my believe in Koba being a mason is my general thinking about masons: As I came to this site again after 15 years and seeing the newbie setup as it is now (back then it always was 2 mafia goons, 1 cop, 1 doc and some VTs) I thought that the worst that could happen to me was being a mason. This was because it means there is no protective or investigative role for town. It just gives two players the inside knowledge about who else is town. But as I thought about it for a bit longer I was no longer convinced that it is the worst setup.

The main advantage scum has is that they are informed. With the masons a few townies (two) are informed as well. This reduced the information gap a bit. In my eyes the best strategy to further close it is to share this knowledge. It is true that if two masons are more or less confirmed D1 they are the most likely nightkills N1 and N2, but this gives town some time to get the true villains. It also stops miselimings of those two players.

And compared to the other option it is way better. The worst thing that could hapen in a mason setup is that the masons do nothing to reveal themselves (not even breadcrumbing) and one gets NKed. The other mason is very likely being counterclaimed day 2 if he dares to claim. This could very fast end in a (miselim D1, mason 1 NKed N1, mason 2 miselim D2, VT NKed N2, scum elim D3, V NKed N3) 2 to 1 on day 4.

[kennyk]

Learning Latin in school and I’m learning about Roman roads in school so I replaced in

Welcome T3.
Or better:
Romani ite domum

[kennyk]

i nearly always fakeclaim mason as a joke it isn't AI and i can link several games where i do so

any PR worth their salt would ignore it and if Val is a PR then

This gets you down on my readlist to at least null (if not worse).

After reading the folling post, I did exactly as you suggest; I ignored the mason claim.

VOTE: Kyouko

voting my (future) mason partner

Especially in the context of post 8 it was nothing more than a joke to me. But later on your behaviour made me rethink this evaluation as it was, at least in my mind, only possible if you actually were a mason. All the secretiveness about knowing certain things about certain another player just lead in this direction.

Obviously fakeclaiming in post 1 is very fine with me but continuing to behave like the PR and when prompted to it denying it alltogether is a whole different story.

And while I wrote this whole thing I did make up my mind and want to go a step further.

VOTE: DkKoba

As the day is slowly ending we need to get rid of someone. I still believe floatingmay could be scum. But as no one else seems to be willing to follow my argumentation, let's get to a more promissing but also shady target.

[kennyk]

val/t3 stop fighting
this is prob tvt (on virtue that i tr kyouko and not my read on t3 which i dont trust)

Does this mean you are reading val town?

[kennyk]

I have been, problem?

Not at all.

[kennyk]

Sorry for not posting over the weekend. Real life had other things in mind than I had.

I guess there was someone out there who wanted a read on Val from me (to lazy to find and quote it). In my readlist I had him as null. But his direct reaction to my list (see following quote) together with the "takeback of a mason softclaim" made me change him to a strong townlean. Some of his posts thereafter have a feeling I can very much relate to. The desperation in not knowing what is happening and what to do about this game looks real to me. So Val right now is in one of the top spots of my green list.

Is it usual practise to openly discuss who may or may not be a PR on the other sites you have played on, kenny?

I think if a town PR were to counterclaim in response to Kobes 'softclaims', if that's what they were, that would be somewhat of a own-gaol in that Koba would likely just say "haha, I wasn't claiming mason, just messing around", and we have an outted PR on D1 with a target on their back for what? Does Koba get eliminated anyway? Drawing a CC while still maintaining some doubt about whether Koba was

trying

to do so might well be the motivation for doing that, and you aren't helping.

If that's your only reason for reading Koba town, I would strongly suggest you reconsider.

[kennyk]

weakly defending kenny with shallow reasoning and then shading me for a might be

team is kenny/mbot


i'll be taking the mvp award now ty

With this guess you will never get the mvp award as it is at least 50 % false. But it matches your overconfidence I have seen. Like in this post:

i just helped win a large game with 21 people by having the game winning townread on another player and helping flip 3 scum before that as well as having a 4th pinned down + having the correct read on every flipped townie.

I have confidence in my play for good reason - because I deliver results, even if it might not be early d1, it ends up happening by end of day 1 and you are trying to subtly shade me with these kinds of TMI riddled statements.

thanks for letting us know Val is town for sure because I was probably going to tinfoil them d2 after u flipped scum

Your reads might have been good in other games. But I guess there are also games in which your reads were totally off. I won't look through your history to find some of them, bevause I don't have the time for this. And this would be totally useless as well. Even if you had a 100 % read-rate (which with your read on me I know you don't) it wouldn't matter. It would only matter if we were sure you were town. Which we don't. And in my case I stringly doubt you are town.

[kennyk]

VOTE: MBot

This standalone vote feels very wierd. No further insight whatsoever on why this vote was cast. It was the second vote on MBot at the time, so it wasn't even an opportunistic hop on a bandwagon.

What strikes me as even more strange is the fact, that, apart from looker, nobody seems to care.

• Re:Andresvmb
  
• Lowest poster
  
• Never voted
  
• On 2 E-2 wagons

To add one thing to those statements: On 2 E-2-wagons as the second vote.

[kennyk]

what is your read on mbot?

I think actually making the effort to at least try and come up with a readlist and get some discussion going in a game where I think it's fairly obvious scum would be content to let things proceed as they are reads townie. I was also struck by the fact that, in any other game, those reads would seem rather shallow; but I having challenged myself to do a better job, I find I simply can't, and they are getting town points from me for making the attempt.

i literally fucking explained my read on yeezys and its the most explained read in the whole game

You did?

yeezys is fucking blatant town lmfao

i dont think an explaination is needed

you are experienced enough - read the game and figure it out. their energy literally *oozes* town

like yeezys literally pulled up to this game and said "AYO FUCKERS IMMA SOLVE THIS SHIT WATCH THIS"

like thats what i feel when i read yeezys' posts and i would trust them with my life

It is a sad indictment of the state of this game if THAT is "the most explained read in the whole game", and it had to be teased out of you like blood from a stone.

I have some more to say, but I am afraid it will have to wait for a few hours.

Those three quotes were a main part of my reasoning to believe that Koba was mason with yeezys, as without the mason-connection they didn't make much sense. A town-lean on yeezys could have been a totally justified read but this reads more like a conf-town read. And that is a read that was (and still is; sorry yeezys) by no means obvious.

[kennyk]

like holy fuck kenny is not genuine here bc like to say im scum and that im too confident on that read is to accuse me of tmi so kenny is making up conclusions and their thought process lacks consistency or depth that a townies does - because a townie would be like "oh i think koba scum bc they tmi their read on yeezys therefore yeezys is very much likely town". Scum path is to make the mistake and pillow read yeezys to try to reduce credibility there.

And of course that is the only way a townie could conclude from reading you scum (that was ironic). As you said, pillow reading could be a scum mistake. But as you mentioned it you very well know it could be a mistake (it is a whole different story if it

is

a mistake). You being scum is not necessarily meaning yeezys is town.

[kennyk]

Also as for val atp im willing to consolidate on them if it means not limming me because they have bad reads anyways and i could very well be just straight up letting scum who is shitpushing me get a free townread again.

Wow, you are willing to consolidate on Val if it means we are not limming you. How generous. I on E-1 would be willing to consolidate on everyone else but me, but hey, everyone plays different.

[kennyk]

• Re:Andresvmb
  
• Lowest poster
  
• Never voted
  
• On 2 E-2 wagons

To add one thing to those statements: On 2 E-2-wagons as the second vote.

Each time followed by ssbm_Kyouko (T3)

Too bad no one seems to care about this.

[kennyk]

So let me get this straight Koba: You said your read on kyouko (now T3) is the most and best explained read in this whole game. As a proof you now post this:

Spoiler: quoted post in spoilers for a better reading experience

i have 100% readrate with kyouko via vibes tho

but seriously she is not being wishy washy like she is normally as scum and is showing depth in her thoughts and i just generally can feel when she is town.

could i be being snowed by a kyouko who has put in effort to mimic her town meta better?
sure. but im not going to bother with that tinfoil on d1.

normally id say the lack of energy/posting from kyouko is not a good look for kyouko as ignoring game and trying to go under the radar is one of his scumtells but i have reasons *not* to scumread them here for it and i cannot explain.

i have a 100% read rate on kyouko so unless you think a) i managed to read them wrong this time(impossible) b) i am scum with kyouko

your theory is bad

VOTE: Kyouko

voting my (future) mason partner

am I town or am I scum

kyouko didn't post enough for me to get a solid lock but she leaned town before she replaced out

val/t3 stop fighting
this is prob tvt (on virtue that i tr kyouko and not my read on t3 which i dont trust)

lol t3 and i have many games together and he understands my meta and kyouko i have a literal 100% readrate on

VOTE: T3
ive wanted to do this for the past four days explanation coming soon

you don't want to do this

oh i fucking do
dont tell me what i want to do or what i dont want to do, i knwo what i'm doing
you and koba are scumbuddies, and you're not making your situation any better

If you think my townread on kyouko was poor then i invite you to read several games where i snipe kyouko alignment to see i have their number.

I am not seeing MBot here. Complaints are being made about "not explaining reads organically" but, as far as I can see, those reads are explained as well as can be given how his game is being played, and, while I realise I am in the minority in this particular game, it appears to be a result largely of your examples, Koba and T3. I also note that, having been more than happy to riff off yeezys playing this memey 'I'm not explaining jack' sort of game, you, Koba, now want to insist he bucks it up and starts explaining the second it is turned on you.

I can't help but feel scum are more than content with the way this game is going, and to criticise one of the few slots trying to get things moving doesn't look all that great.

I was hoping Looker coming with would be the impetus this game needs to get rolling. Can you explain what you thing you are seeing in those posts you have quoted? Maybe things will get moving this way.

i literally fucking explained my read on yeezys and its the most explained read in the whole game


my read on kyouko is based very strongly on vibes and while kyouko wasnt with us long enough to be locktowned they are certainly enough to be townread.

I asked because I've seen the very posts Val was referring to before when

metaing

other players and it struck me as odd that he did not open the same way here.

Meta refers to a player's playstyle or patterns. Sometimes if you're having trouble reading someone, or think something they did was suspicious but are not sure if it is AI (alignment-indicative) for that player, you can go look at their previous games and see what they have done in the past to judge whether it is something that is normal for them to do only as one alignment or the other, or if it is new territory for them. For example, Koba has correctly TRed and SRed me with 100% accuracy in the past 5 or 6 games we've played together where they were town, because they have gotten familiar with my meta.

When I say "metaing", I just mean reading that other player's

completed

(discussing ongoing games is against the rules) games (I think I was metaing StrangeMatter, possibly also saw Val89 in a Roden game) to help me get a better read on them. Some people will also say meta-diving.

To find a player's games, click their name to view their profile, and on the right side in the "User Statistics" section click "View their Topics" to see a list of threads the player has posted in.

Koba's read accuracy on me is actually game-relevant so I'll include this outside the spoiler as well. I say they have a high burden of proficiency (BoP) to read me correctly because they have established a history of correctly reading me. I'm town, so this means if Koba is scum they are sort of cornered into killing me at Night or keeping me alive and TRing me, hoping I don't catch them.

Back to MBot though, she comes in saying she's glad there's only one page to read, and being ready to play, and then just makes the one post, no vote, no interaction with the other players. She doesn't really seem ready to play, as she hasn't made a move. Unless not making a move

is

her move, and she just doesn't want to be caught.

My Mbot vote was serious, but nobody has taken it as such. I'm most concerned about Koba from the lack of reaction as Val hasn't left the Newbie queue much, if at all, where the games tend to be more fast-paced.

Mbot, what's your mafia experience like? Have you ever played online on another forum before? Chat mafia? In-person?

im not reading t3 town off t3 i am reading them town off kyouko

do u think these 2 posts are from scum?

please explain why it makes them viable as scum - I eagerly await your explaination.

i mean feel free to base ur reads on things you made up in your head

The only reason for a townlean read on the T3-slot is that kyouko wasn't as wishy washy as usual when they were scum. The rest is just you bragging about how good you were able to read them in other games. And now you expect everyone else to bilndly follow your lead? And to make it worse you vehemently attack anybody who is not following suit.

[kennyk]

Imagine trying to discredit someone with a 7/7 read on someone in recent games

And there goes the bragging again.

I will not blindly follow anyone in this game no matter how good their reads were in past games, as long as I am not convinced, that that someone is on my side. This is a totally new game and I don't know your alignment. Nor do I trust you (so far I don't trust anybody). If the past was such a big deal I could say that if you want an easy win as town, just follow me. I had a perfect town game (scum elimed on D1 and D2 with no NK). See, I can brag, too (if you want to look it up, it is a three page (!) newbie game with a two-digit number about 15 years ago. My old account name was quite similar to my new one).

[kennyk]

So let me get this straight Koba: You said your read on kyouko (now T3) is the most and best explained read in this whole game.

That's not quite right, kenny.

i literally fucking explained my read on yeezys and its the most explained read in the whole game

I do agree with the sentiment - the explaination of the read on yeezys was pretty underwhelming, but at Koba has been clear that their T3 read is based on the fact they have a good record reading the previous occupant of the slot via 'vibes', and are leaning on that despite the replacement. I also think that's not particulary satisifying either; it might do for Koba, but to expect the rest of us to take that at face value?

Let's not get the two mixed up, though, because they are two different issues.

You are absolutely right. I somehow mixed up the "most explained read" in my head. I really thought I remembered it being on the T3 slot. I take that part of my post back. Bit the rest stands as is.

[kennyk]

Spoiler: I don't want to get this to long

• Re:Andresvmb
  
• Lowest poster
  
• Never voted
  
• On 2 E-2 wagons

To add one thing to those statements: On 2 E-2-wagons as the second vote.

Each time followed by ssbm_Kyouko (T3)

Too bad no one seems to care about this.

I checked the ISO on them multiple times and waited with bated breath for the post that they were going to make "later" but it never came. I figured they may be replaces soon so didn't want to waste energy there if they weren't going to be active. My thoughts are that lurking scum would at least post nonsense to stay in the game?

scum lurk out all the time. But for andres its NAI afaik bc it happens to him as town[/quote]
I agree that not posting is the reason for my suspicion. It is the vote that came out of nowhere with no explanation.

[kennyk]

koba do you not know what "a life outside the internet" is ???
like sorry for not being able to get back to you but i think there's been a pattern of people talkign to me and me being unable to get back immediately, so don't start getting pissed when it doesnt take me three seconds to whip up a reply.
i'm real busy, and i can't juggle schoolwork, extracurriculars, and people on the internet as well i could in the past few months
@ffery, can i do the v/la thing for 11/16 - 11/19?
ill be active afterwards.

Not yet married but already the stress about not responding properly beginns

[kennyk]

And Fixer's V/LA is over, right?

If I may quote the last but one votecount: Fixer is v/la until evening of 11/16. So this is a yes to your question.

[kennyk]

I was completely sheeping Koba with my vote btw. Now I actually have some time I’ll catch up really quick.

We still have four hours to hold him accountable for empty promises

I guess we would be lucky if we manage to elim anyone today. And I don't think we'll get that many people to switch over to Andres. But we should at least try to focus them on D2 if nothing of a higher priority happens N1.

[kennyk]

Another thing Koba is wrong about. I'm not a mason. Trying to out masons is complete BS as town and you've tried it a number of times with different people. Why would you be pushing to throw town in front of a bus? I know better than to engage. I really do. But I can't wrap my head around the BS plays. I would actually be ok with voting them at this point even if they flip town.

Val, I'm not feeling the Kenny wagon. I agreed with many of their posts. I may be wrong but their scum hunting has a genuine feel to it. I'd be more willing to put a vote on T3 or Looker ( based on the floating may vibes) than Kenny.

Koba as a player is FAR more valuable than you. So claiming that you would be okay executing them even if they flip Town is arrogance you definitely haven’t earned.

If Kobas claim of a VT is true and MBot is VT, too, I would agree with you. If MBot has a power role, I would strongly disagree.

[kennyk]

Yes we’ve done this song and dance.

Also, I have officially reached 20 consecutive games as Town (completed). I have flipped in another one but I will not speak to that one just yet.

So is the streak ending in this game? (This is more like a rhethorical question with a little giggle-factor. But if you honestly can answer it with "yes", please do so )

This is a bad post.

What more should I do to clarify, that this wasn't meant to be taken serious?

[kennyk]

Another thing Koba is wrong about. I'm not a mason. Trying to out masons is complete BS as town and you've tried it a number of times with different people. Why would you be pushing to throw town in front of a bus? I know better than to engage. I really do. But I can't wrap my head around the BS plays. I would actually be ok with voting them at this point even if they flip town.

Val, I'm not feeling the Kenny wagon. I agreed with many of their posts. I may be wrong but their scum hunting has a genuine feel to it. I'd be more willing to put a vote on T3 or Looker ( based on the floating may vibes) than Kenny.

Koba as a player is FAR more valuable than you. So claiming that you would be okay executing them even if they flip Town is arrogance you definitely haven’t earned.

If Kobas claim of a VT is true and MBot is VT, too, I would agree with you. If MBot has a power role, I would strongly disagree.

Nah haha I trust Koba to actually win a game for the Town. PRs screw things up all the time, and it’s rather infrequent that games are won mechanically. I’ve been in a few, but most of the time strong Town are just so much more valuable than a lot of PRs.

So you would rather sacrifice a town PR than elimming Koba? Even if that meant having Koba as a scum opponent? Interesting.

[kennyk]

Yes we’ve done this song and dance.

Also, I have officially reached 20 consecutive games as Town (completed). I have flipped in another one but I will not speak to that one just yet.

So is the streak ending in this game? (This is more like a rhethorical question with a little giggle-factor. But if you honestly can answer it with "yes", please do so )

This is a bad post.

What more should I do to clarify, that this wasn't meant to be taken serious?

I didn’t take it serious. It’s still bad.

Why?

[kennyk]

I have to admit that I was relieved, when Koba flipped scum. The only bad thing about the flip is, that Koba was "just" a mafia goon and we still don't know anything about the setup. So we can't work on that right now. And I don't think any town PR shoud claim right now, except there is an investigative role out there who caught someone redhanded of course.

On the other hand I think that the choice for the nightkill is interesting. I as mafia wouldn't have killed him. At least two players (looker and me) had made it clear that they had strong scum vibes from Andres. That could have been exploited by the remaining scum on D2 for a more or less easy miselim. Depnding on the alternate nightkill I guess I would have been on that wagon. Was scum reading Andres as a town PR who did play it slow?

[kennyk]

And why would you die over Val, T3 and MBot

Why do you name those three specificly?

[kennyk]

So I guess no one found the other scum last night. That would have been too easy.

So what do we make out of Kboas interactions yesterday? It seems they were trying to pocket yeezyz and the T3 slot. Or was it pocketing one and prtoecting the other? And if so, who is who?

I don't know the answers. But they would be easier to get, if we knew the actual setup as I would suspect Koba to plax different in a setup with a scum PR than a setup with two goons.

Let me give you an example: If both Koba and me were scum in one of the C-setups the things happening at the end of D1 could have been pulled off easyly. It still would be very daring but not too big of a loss to be on each others wagon. But if I was the other scum in either the A- or B-setup things would be very different. Sure, Koba is an experienced player. But sacrificing the scum PR on D1 is quite a stunt.

[kennyk]

If Koba flips Town though, as I suspect they will, then some of you actually need to pay attention to what they’ve said.

Of course they killed Andresvmb after this

What do you mean?

I don't get it either. If the original comment would have been "If Koba flips scum ..." that would have made more sense. Andres seemed to have been convinced Koba was town. This would have made him a viable target for D2 for any townie. And I can't read any sort of town PR into that comment. So I guess the best explanation for him being NKed is, that it leaves us with little information.

[kennyk]

I definitely don't want any PR to out itself right now. No one was examined last night who is the last remaining scum or otherwise the game would be over right now. That would have been the only good option for a PR claiming right now. All other options are bad as it gives us three confirmed townies at best (setups with a cop or tracker who targeted an innocent player) and just one confirmed townie at worst (setups C1 and C2). That is not enough with seven players left.

So if anybody has the feeling they need to claim their PR because of my posts (I admit that they might be read in that direction): don't do it!

[kennyk]

I agree that Andres last post was too genuinely town to leave him with much doubt. If they were scum with Koba then there would be zero reason to make that kind of statement. Remember that the remaining mafia wants us as much in the dark and guessing as possible.

Yeezy and Val would have to be extremely ballsy to be playing the way they did with fellow Mafia players on D1. Too much risk there and too obvious if Koba was voted out. Koba tried to play super aggressive scum hunting town so I'm almost positive that the other baddie is one of the less prominent players from d1. I'll reread tomorrow at some point with the knowledge that Koba is scum to see if anything share worthy catches my eye.

So if yeezyz or Val were scum, their play was too obvious if Koba was voted out. Koba was voted out. Does that mean they are both scum, too? I think I get what you wanted to say, but the words don't make sense.

I guess you are right about the less prominent players being a good go to point.

[kennyk]

As I was asked to offer my reads on the T3 and the looker slots I read through their ISOs.

floatingmay gave me some minor pings before I turned my attention to Koba. Later on, looker had some good points on Andres (which were false, but I was also wrong in that case). I am still not sure what to make of this slot, so it is in a null state.

ssbm_Kyouko and T3 ISOs on the other hand, combined with those of Koba, make me feel a little uneasy. There was so much locktown/obvtown-talk from all three of them about each other. And all is with little to none evidence. And than there are these three posts:

do not vote koba please trust me

^townpost
VOTE: kenny

VOTE: KOBA
IM SORRY
But a VT lim day 1 is always better than no lim

First he strongly tells us to not vote Koba. And two posts later he does just that. This kind of looks like he wanted to be on the wagon to not look too suspicious. All the obvtown talk was suddenly forgotten about.

Early on day two there was this post:

Oh yeah, Val is also town.
My defense is that scum would be more hesitant to locktown their partner. Also when scum koba has a read on a scum partner, they will tend to argue the town out of voting their scum partner instead of just townreading them.

Was this to indirectly explain away your scumplay?

I guess I will try and cast my first D2 vote now:
VOTE: T3
This should be E-1

[kennyk]

so if t3 flips scum, we win. yay!
if he flips town, then vote looker next.
if looker flips town, then we're literally screwed kekw
but i don't really have anything to say here because i'm pretty much convinced it's t3 at this point and if not well
we're screwed

Don't forget that there are town power roles out there (or depending on the setup just one). If T3 really is a miselim he should be "just" a vanilla townie as he didn't claim a PR even at E-1. And as he himself said D1: A VT miselim is better than a no-elim.

[kennyk]

I think we got a hammer. Drums are expectantly playing...

[kennyk]

So this leaves us with two possible setups (A3 and C3) which are now totally the same, except for the role PM our remaining scum got. But it doesn't matter if it was roleblocker or goon, as a roleblocker can't block a mason.

That's the good thing. The bad is that we are not going to get any easy guilty verdicts from anyone as there is no investigative town role.

And what is the best play for our remaining mason? Claim or no claim? Claiming today would lead to a sure NK of that mason if we miselim today (which has a 1 in 4 chance in case of a claim) and a 2 on 1 tomorrow. Not claiming could lead to the same result except that the other mason could be one of the 2 townies on our last day. A claim on that day could be counterclaimed by the remaining scum. But if there were enough crumbs for X and yeezys being masons together it could well be, that it is a 50 % thing depending on who the mason votes.

[kennyk]

Concerning the counterclaim scenarios:
Val is totally right about a fake mason (counter-)claim is the death sentnce for scum. So it won't happen today.
If we get to "scum - VT - mason" tomorrow, there are three possible scenarios:
1. The mason doesn't claim: Bad idea! Both townies have to find the scum. Random voting by both of them gives us just a 25 % chance of winning.
2. The mason claims, there is no counterclaim: Here the mason is the deciding factor, as scum and VT have to vote each other. The mason has a 50 % chance of success.
3. The mason claims, scum counterclaims (or the other way round): Here the VT is the deciding factor. scum and mason vote each other. VT has a 50 % winning chance.
So as far as I see things, scum has the option to not counterclaim. This whole thing is heavily relying on the randomness of not forced votes. So if scum thinks, that the mason reads him more town than the VT, he could very well not counterclaim. Or with this tactcic written down here, he could just do it to confuse the VT into believing him not being scum.

[kennyk]

Looking at some things again, I noticed one thing: We are for sure either in the A3 or the C3 setup. We won't know in which, until after this game ends.
If we are in the A3 setup, it could very well be, that the mafia roleblocker bussed the goon to gain some towncred. Allthough Koba seems to be a big sacrifice.
In the C3 setup such a bus would be even worse. In two out of the three possible setups (for two mafia goons) there is a very dangerous town PR for a lone scummy. I would be too afraid to try and do such a trick.

So if we were in the C3 setup, I would assume, that scum wasn't on the Koba-wagon. This would leave looker and fixer.

Those two are conincidently the two persons I have at the lower spots of my read list as both MBot and Val are on a heavy townlean for me. As of now looker would be my choice for a vote. But as we are at E-2 right now, I would like to see a little more discussion before casting that vote.

[kennyk]

I'm also curious as to why I would NK Andres, the only other person on the kennyk wagon, instead of killing someone on the DkKoba wagon and leaving doubt/mystery between myself and Andres, especially if I'd been suspecting him already. It just doesn't make sense.

Maybe you NKed him to say this exact thing right now.

[kennyk]

@MBot: Who do you see as thumbs down and who as thumbs up right now?

[kennyk]

So if I didn't read posts wrong, there are three of us (MBot, Val89 and I), who have the same two people on their red-list (Looker and fixer) while having the other two on their green-list. And if I get things right, the townreads are stronger than the scumreads. So if we three really believe in our townreads, we could act upon them and get this game through. Sure, if one of us was able to fool the other two, we would lose, but I guess that is likely to happen in that case anyways.

I am happy enough with this constellation to proceed accordingly. But I will wait until fixer and Looker had time to react to this. We still have time and I don't want to run into a scenario, where one of them is the second mason but we elimmed him before he had time to claim. I doubt that there is a (non-fake) mason claim from any of those two, but I could have been fooled.

[kennyk]

One suspect posted and no further info is gained. The promised quotes aren't there yet and I doubt they are coming soon.

I am still waiting for looker to post.

[kennyk]

I still don't understand Val89's case...or anyone's. I think Val's is hinging on why I didn't put Val, T3, and MBot as "null" instead of town (which is his playstyle preference)

It is true that I haven't made a wallpost listing every last thing I find scummy about you, largely because fixer has promised to tell us why he is scumreading you and, while he may have gueniue activity problems, the more this keeps going on, the more I think he may potentially be deliberately dodging doing so. I don't want to make my wallpost and then have fixer just come along and say "yeah, what Val said".

I've said a few times now, this part of my case that we are discussing - your D2 progression on T3 - is something I did not understand, something I considered

could

be scum indicative, but also I could be misunderstanding something, so I asked you about it. As I say, it's not the only concern I have with you, or your predecessor slot for that matter, but I was asking about that because it is something I thought you could clear up for me if it wasn't scum indicative - but I

STILL

don't understand what you are trying to tell us.

If I quote the post it loses the colours. It's at 677. I am sure everyone has already seen it several times already. You use 3 different colours, as well as listing everyone individually except the final two, who occupy the same line "X or Y". Are you telling us that Val, T3, and MBot were all actually "null" reads for you, and it's a playstyle thing to call them townreads, and put them in a list that looks ordered but isn't, without explanation?

I don't think my issue here is difficult to understand. It looks very much like you made a readslist, and it appears you did so in response to pressure on your own slot, that was representing to us that you were following the game, you had townreads of varying strengths (with the unwritten assumption that there were reasons for those townreads other than simply knowing they were town), you didn't agree with everyone else's assessment on T3 because you had actual, proper reasons to be townreading there - but following that, then made little or no effort to tell the rest of us that you thought T3 was flipping town because X reasons, while he was being run up by everyone else. Once T3 hit E-1 (with that E-1 vote coming from someone you had the bottom of your readlist), you hammered him, without a claim, with a decent amount of time on the clock, casting that hammer vote in the same post as answering questions directed towards you (Ie: while a discussion about your own slot was still ongoing), and have told us today that T3 didn't say or do anything to change your read, you simply did so because that was the majority consensus.

When questioned about it today, you haven't been able to give us a single reason you were townreading T3 other than you found other players scummy, nor explain any of your other behavior around it in a way that makes me think this wasn't a scumplay. Yes, the 'hammer without a claim' thing is such an openly dodgy thing to do, I have asked myself if a lone scum would draw attention to themselves in such a way, but then I remember that this was a game in which Koba was acting the way they were D1 and getting 'obvtown'ed for it. I also think that perhaps you decided the utility in shutting down the conversation I was trying to start yesterday about that this very readslist overrode any such issues.

The fact that is does appear to me like you were trying to shut down that conversation (as well as one Mbot was trying to have about the makeup of your ISO) is a big part of why I'm coming back to this over and over again and trying to make sure it doesn't get lost, frankly.

First, I totally agree with the arguments given in this post (Or in short: "yeah, what Val said" ; Sorry, but I had to make that one).

Second, I don't know, why quoting would loose colours for you. If I preview a quote of said post, everything looks fine:

Spoiler: At the risk of WIFOM pending a miselim

MBot

T3

Val89

fixer

yeezys or kennyk

One thing I think is interesting about the clolours, is that there are actually 5 of them (They are numbered 00ff00, 00c400, 00a800, E00000 and Ff0000), allthough they look to me as being three different colours to me, too.

[kennyk]

Sorry, for not posting for so long. Real life hit me, but I am back.

So reading all the new posts and the sometimes confusing discussion between Val89 and looker (at least for me right now), I feel more confident in eliminating looker. One thing I am quite sure about is, that looker is not the second mason. At E-1 and with my statement about voting either him or fixer out the only hope to survive for a mason!looker would have been to claim it. I am not sure if I would have believed it. But it didn't happen. Ergo he is most likely not the mason.

[kennyk]

So I reread some posts and I am now at a point where I would like to cast the final vote of today.

In the now infamous post 677 (couldn't it have been 11 posts before? ) there were three players on lookers positive side (MBot, T3 and Val89) and three on the negative (fixer, yeezyz and I). Yeezyz was NKed. Looker now votes his top read from that list. He hammered his second pick and is in a heavy infight with his third. If I read everything correctly and am not misinterpreting things, the two remaining "baddies" are now at least null reads, but I don't see, how we got this upgrade.

Allthough it might look like I am shutting down a conversation, I will

VOTE: looker

I hope I nailed it.

[kennyk]

Just a quick thought on what happened before I start to work.

On our last day I really thought "Wouldn't it be a plot twist, if we elimed looker and fixer is than NKed (or the other way around)? That would leave two really perplexed players and a scum. But after what was posted scum would change the odds in towns favour. So if either Val or MBot is scum, they sure wouldn't do that." But as it seems, one of you did.

A reevaluation will follow after work and after my third vaccination (hopefully this one won't knock me out like the first two).

[kennyk]

I am sorry for not posting earlier. But first my granddad unexpectedly had to go to the hospital and some things needed to be dealt with and then the side effects of my vaccination kicked in. The fever is gone, but I am still not feeling too good. So the announced deep investigation still has to wait.

[kennyk]

I hate F3s with a passion. This one, particulary, since I really just don't know and it feels like basically a coin flip.

If only it was a coin flip. Assuming randomness each of the two townies has a 50 % chance to vote scum or town. The chances for both to hit scum is just 25 %. I would clearly prefer a coin flip.

[kennyk]

The worst thing is, that we all had good reasons to read the other two as townies. But one reason I had Val on my townlist is one I didn't mention before, because I didn't want to help scum. I really had Val as the second mason. The reason why is the following post:

Is it usual practise to openly discuss who may or may not be a PR on the other sites you have played on, kenny?

I think if a town PR were to counterclaim in response to Kobes 'softclaims', if that's what they were, that would be somewhat of a own-gaol in that Koba would likely just say "haha, I wasn't claiming mason, just messing around", and we have an outted PR on D1 with a target on their back for what? Does Koba get eliminated anyway? Drawing a CC while still maintaining some doubt about whether Koba was

trying

to do so might well be the motivation for doing that, and you aren't helping.

If that's your only reason for reading Koba town, I would strongly suggest you reconsider.

For me it suggested, that Val knew, that Koba couldn't be a mason, because he himself had a power role. This obviously is not the case, so in my personal provisional ranking he is now in the bottom position. Also, I don't believe in a "scum hammering scum on D1 30 minutes before deadline"-scenario is likely. So right now I am leaning more on a scum!Val89 than a scum!MBot, but I won't vote before a deeper look into things.

[kennyk]

I wanted to start my reacp of this game with something that wasn't subjective and so it was going to be a little vote analysis.

Here are all the votes by the remaining players and DkKoba our only confirmed scummy. I will add the votecount before each vote and a short version of the reason for each vote. Hopefully I didn't miss any vote or didn't mess up with the votecounts. Admittedly I am to lazy to link every post.

Spoiler: Day 1

post 6: DkKoba voted ssbm_Kyouko in the first non-mod post. A random vote.

post 30: I voted floatingmay. A random vote. Votecount was 1 vote on ssbm_Kyouko (DkKoba), fixer (floatingmay) and MBot (ssbm_Kyouko).

post 32: Val89 voted me. A random vote. Votecount was 1 vote on ssbm_Kyouko (DkKoba), fixer (floatingmay), MBot (ssbm_Kyouko) and floatingmay (me).

post 55: MBot voted yeezys because of lack of activity (?). Votecount was 1 vote on ssbm_Kyouko (DkKoba), MBot (ssbm_Kyouko), floatingmay (me), me (Val89) and DkKoba (floatingmay).

post 60: DkKoba voted Val89 for being manipulative. Votecount was 1 vote on ssbm_Kyouko (DkKoba), MBot (ssbm_Kyouko), floatingmay (me), me (Val89), yeezys (MBot) and fixer (floatingmay).

post 65: Val89 voted Koba89 for her reaction to his question. Votecount was 1 vote on MBot (ssbm_Kyouko), floatingmay (me), me (Val89), yeezys (MBot) and Val89 (DkKoba).

post 177: DkKoba voted me. Floatingmay read me as scum the post before and she said "OK lets do it then". Votecount was 1 vote on MBot (ssbm_Kyouko), floatingmay (me), me (Val89), yeezys (MBot) and Val89 (DkKoba).

post 209: DkKoba switched to fixer because of an obscure idea never explained. Votecount was 2 votes on me (Val89 and DkKoba), 1 vote on MBot (ssbm_Kyouko), floatingmay (me) and yeezys (MBot).

post 396: I voted DkKoba for the repeated mason softclaim and because of denying doing so. Votecount was 2 votes on Val89 (Andresvmb and T3) and DkKoba (Val89 and floatingmay), 1 vote on fixer (DkKoba), floatingmay (me) and yeezys (MBot).

post 408: DkKoba voted Andresvmb for their unmotivation (?). Votecount was 3 votes on DkKoba (Val89, floatingmay and me), 1 vote on fixer (DkKoba), Val89 (Andresvmb), yeezys (MBot) and MBot (T3).

post 413: Val89 voted T3 for getting nothing but derision. Votecount was 3 votes on DkKoba (Val89, floatingmay and me), 1 vote on Andresvmb (DkKoba), Val89 (Andresvmb), yeezys (MBot) and MBot (T3).

post 427: MBot voted fixer. There was a scumread with no actual example as to why. Votecount was 2 votes on DkKoba (floatingmay and me) and Val89 (Andresvmb and T3), 1 vote on Andresvmb (DkKoba), yeezys (MBot) and T3 (Val89).

post 428: Val voted T3 again as kind of a revenge-revenge vote.

post 438: DkKoba voted MBot because her reads didn't feel genuine. Votecount was 2 votes on DkKoba (floatingmay and me) and Val89 (Andresvmb and T3), 1 vote on Andresvmb (DkKoba), fixer (MBot) and T3 (Val89).

post 523: Val89 voted DkKoba because of her anti-town playstyle. Votecount was 3 votes on MBot (DkKoba, Andresvmb and T3), 2 votes on DkKoba (me and yeezys), 1 vote on Andresvmb (Looker), fixer (MBot) and T3 (Val89).

post 565: DkKoba voted me. After five posts of talking agrressively to and about others the reason was „yeah fuck it“. Votecount was 3 votes on DkKoba (me, yeezys and Val89), 2 votes on MBot (DkKoba and Andresvmb) and 1 vote on Andresvmb (Looker), fixer (MBot) and me (T3).

post 629: MBot hammered DkKoba for anti-town feelings. Votecount was 4 votes on DkKoba (me, yeezys, Val89 and T3), 3 votes on me (DkKoba, Looker, Andresvmb) and 1 vote on fixer (MBot).

Spoiler: Day 2

post 658: Val89 voted T3. Reasoning had to do with how scum!Koba plays and the way this effected the game and the way T3 argumented (I don't know how to describe in short. Read it for yourself). Votecount was 1 vote on yeezys (Looker) and on fixer (T3).

post 708: I voted T3 for contradictions in his posts. Votecount was 2 votes on T3 (Val89 and yeezys) and 1 vote on yeezys (Looker).

no vote from MBot on day 2.

Spoiler: Day 3

post 744: Val89 voted Looker because his questions were answered with evasion and rude pushbacks. First vote D3.

post 767: MBot voted fixer. She read Val and me as town but did not want to put Looker at E-1. Votecount was 1 vote on Looker (Val89).

post 804: I hammered Looker because I was (wrongly) believing in our "town triangle". Votecount was 2 votes on Looker (Val89 and fixer) and 1 vote on fixer (MBot)

[kennyk]

So with the raw data from my last post, one can very well see, that I didn't just vote three times. I voted four times. The same amount of votes you cast, MBot. You missed my vote on Koba. As you can see, it was the third vote on her at that time and it stayed there until you hammered.

Koba on the other hand casted her vote around on nearly everyone (all except yeezys and floatingmay/Looker).

And by the way, there was more posts between Koba and me apart from those you quoted. You totally missed out those who led to my vote on Koba.

I have to ask you this: are you deliberately trying to shade me here in order to convince Val89 to vote me?

[kennyk]

Absolutely on pointing out why I am scum reading you, Kenny, over Val. I pointed out the facts that I saw to see why I leaned towards you over Val. Hence me mentioning that I cant see Val as scum because of the tinfoil hat theory rabbit hole that I choose not to go down that involves me considering Val and Koba plotting that entire lengthy interaction. I'm not going to quote every single post you made. I just found your posts more superficial and careful than Vals. Careful, thought out posts are more suspicious to me at this point than emotional reactions that looked too genuine to be a planned out thing to distance scum partners.

Now you are arguing in a slightly different direction. In your other post you said Kobas direct interaction with me was very superficial. Now it is all my posts.
Then it reads like I didn't even interact with Koba. Which is obviously false. No need to quote every post there.
Then you forgot to see my vote on Koba and accuse me of only voting three times, while you had the same amount of votes.

Yes, my posts in general are thought out (atleast I hope they are). But that's how I am. You have to really get in my nerves to get an emotional reaction from me in real life. And the same (if not more) applies here. Please look at my other games. I doubt you would find less thought through posts from me in those games. And I was VT in all of them (I am right now, too, but both of you will claim the same).

[kennyk]

So I guess I made up my mind over night.

MBot, you were successfull at convincing me. But maybe not in a way you expected.

I asked myself the question "Whose townieniess would have been easier to fake". And I came to the conclusion it is yours. It is true I had Val on my townlist for believing him to a power role. But as you said, his interaction with Koba feels so genuine that it deserved an award if it was faked.

On the other hand I had you on my townlist because of the day 1 hammer. That on the other hand is easy to do as scum. And here is some theory about why you would do that as scum: I think, we are in the C3-setup. Koba tried to get a counterclaim by either the cop, the jailkeeper or one mason. With one of them claiming, even a D1-elim for one mafia wouldn't have been a bad thing, as day 2 would have started with 1 scum against 6 townies with no investigating or NK-defying role left. The mayor threat for mafia gone it would have still been a long way, but many roads for town would have been blocked (to use this threads main theme). But the problem was, there was no counterclaim and Koba got in the direct line of fire anyways. As she was going down, she needed something to get her partner to get a good headstart in the race to the endgame. With a counterwagon not gaining speed and very little time left, her partner put down the hammer and was bared of any doubt later on.

Than there is MBots claim that she thought I was the other mason. I have to admit, that I read it and didn't think about it at first. But how would my interaction with yeezyz lead to the believe I was the other mason. Especially with the look at the early day 1 this is ridiculous. As a mason together with yeezys I would never read Koba as town because I have her and yeezys as masons. Why should I try and clear a person I know nearly nothing about. I can see how I could have done this stunt as another PR (to get scum to focus elsewhere), but surely not as mason. Imagine yeezys being NKed N1, who would have believed me in a mason claim?

And there is the thing about last nights kill. I couldn't come to a scenario where it was good for scum. But with MBot as scum it now makes sence. Fixer posed some questions at MBot yesterday and wasn't as convinced as Val and me about her being town. So with him alive today instead of Val or me it would have been more difficult for MBot to survive. Maybe she read some of the things fixer posted as crumbs for him being a mason. I didn't dig into itbut there was one quote of Koba posting some mason stuff and one yeezys quote that looked out of place. So the worst case would have been a mason claiming fixer in F3. So if she believed a last minute hammer on fellow scum had more towncred than the reasons Val and I are here, she might have gone on that path.

One other interesting thing is, that MBots first post after the yeezys NK was suggesting the other mason to claim. Honi soit qui mal y pense.

Although I have the feeling I had another point I forgot while writing this, I think this is enough for me to

VOTE: MBot

We are close to deadline and I have to decide between you two, as no elim is no option at all. I know that I am throwing the first stone and might very well be stoned for it. But at least I tried.

I know, that MBot is very likely voting me now and it is Val who decides, who wins (no pressure!). If Val is the second scum, he was going to win anyways, because as hard as I tried to think about plausible case against him, I couldn't come up with one. So either he played very good as scum or is just the last remaining VT (besides me).

[kennyk]

I'm convinced.

VOTE: MBot

Convinced or knowing all the time?

I guess it is GG Val89 and DkKoba.

[kennyk]

Wow! Now I am even more confused than after last nights NK was revealed. I really thought that after you voted with such a comment, you had to be scum hammering the game. But it seems you are town, too
I don't believe you would write such a post after winning it for scum.

The only question remaining now is if MBot was a goon or had the useless feature of a roleblocker.

And even before the game is officially over, I like to thank everybody participating and modding this game for the good experience. I have to admit it was a real rrollercoaster of whohoo's and no's on my part.