Newbie 762 - OhGodMyVillage - Game Over

[Mastin]

Ha, ha, Hi, Scien.

Anyway, this is my first actual Day One, believe it or not, as every other time, I've replaced in after at least one page. That said, Scien, you probably wouldn't know that I like to start games off with random.org. ...The result was Mastin. :/

Mastin Votes: Mastin.

Oh, well. It's random, alright.

[Mastin]

please tell me why you like to start off your games with a random roll result instead of a normal random vote.

It generally generates more discussion. One thing an IC of another game taught me is that generating discussion is always a good thing, even if it's aimed at yourself.

This exact same thing happened before in my experience, and I had to give that player a hard time as well.

You went hard on him, if I recall, mainly due to how he dodged the questions.

Right off the bat I can tell you I dislike this style of voting. The fact that you let the result become a self-vote makes me like it even less.

The vote will be removed if there is any move I see as particularly scummy, as it would be if it were a random vote.

Rolling seems to me to take away a risk involved in getting involved in the game.

I find that, if used correctly, it actually generates rather the healthy amount of discussion and if the person using it does a good job, (s)he will become one of the most involved players in the game. Off of nothing more than a dice roll and the reactions I got out of it, on another site, I got one scum lynched.

The risk being having an action be viewed as being scummy.

There's also the risk of using this tactic in front of someone who you know has seen it before--you. I know all too well where you've seen it done before. I'd argue that a random roll is more risky than a random vote.

A roll is something that someone could hide behind, because if someone decided it looked weird, the rolling player can just blame statistics instead of trying to defend themselves.

I would rather hate myself if I did this; I never would blame something on statistics, as I much prefer to defend myself. At the very least, it adds a certain element of challenge to the game.

Long story short, I don't really see a roll serving any purpose besides two possibilities. A) A scum using it to stay behind the scenes. B) A townie trying to lay low, and not draw attention to themselves.

I believe my above explanations give other alternatives as well.

From past experience, you seem to be a player that would not fall into B. So what are your motives behind the die roll?

From past experience, you can also conclude that I do not fall into A. I know what these things can produce, and it has the opposite outcome of what you describe, in my experience.

Second, you allowing the roll to fall on yourself makes me cringe even more.

There are nine players. Why eliminate any from the throw? Quite personally, I have a dislike for any who remove themselves and use this.

I dislike both a random roll, and self-voting.

And in any other part of the game, I would agree with you.

Sorry to give you grief right out of the bat, but I don't like your initial action.

One of the reasons I prefer replacing in after the random voting stage is already over...

But I want an answer from Mastin about the motives.

This should suffice.

I look forward to having a fun game from all of you.

[Mastin]

I'll just throw a in random vote to show everyone my good intentions:

Why? Why do you need to show everyone your good intentions? If you're town, shouldn't you already know that you have good intentions? Explain...

[Mastin]

I'll just throw a in random vote to show everyone my good intentions:

Why? Why do you need to show everyone your good intentions? If you're town, shouldn't you already know that you have good intentions? Explain...

Ub, I still expect an answer from this...

Perhaps. But the main thing I am trying to say here, trying to avoid saying too much about the past, is that due to my views I am obligated to at least apply some pressure to figure out why someone would use the random roll as a tactic. I did it then, and things progressed after I got initial answers, just as we are getting initial answers here.

Precisely. Things will progress when people answer questions directed at them.

First off in my rather limited experence I have not seen you as scum so I don't know if you could fit into the A category, that is what I am trying to decide.

And, sadly, the only link I can give you where I have been scum is a game which I did not have my current playstyle in. I'd have to Dig to find that link, and I don't think it'd be worth the effort Of the time spent Coasting through pages.

Secondly, I take it you are arguing that the third choice is C) A player can use the roll as a tool to make himself look initially scummy, in order to increase participation in the game? Hmm maybe. But this has some drawbacks that I would like to ask you about if this is your claim.

I had no intention of it making me look scummy, but had intended for it to generate discussion (which it did). I was questioning if I should use it, knowing that drawbacks definitely existed.

First, would you consider it a risk that someone would start analyzing your play before you could get reads from others, bringing the tactic into limelight, and allowing for scum to dodge around it? Would you say that I am harming your attempts at the moment? Or do you think you can maneuver around this and still get the reads you are after from scum?

Every action has a risk involved and a consequence from that action. It is very easy for me to still get reads on the players this early in the game--particularly you, for example, who I'm already believing to be pro-town. Depending on where people's votes fall within a few real-life days, it will generate very large discussion. On that subject, it could also help other players get tells as well, hopefully leading us to the scum. 'Course, it could all just lead to nothing, but I doubt it.

Second if you are truly trying to examine others, why were you content on a roll landing on yourself.

The roll on myself is rather the blessing, as it is perhaps the one thing greater than the roll itself that will generate discussion and help me get a read. I am glad it landed on me, as we're already discussing.

This still screams scum to me.

As I have explained, sometimes, strange, practically unorthodox tactics/moves/luck can give more information than traditional methods, as it has done now.

If you wanted to examine others, you could be playing the random roll game you are playing with me now, but have placed a random vote elsewhere so you had a chance of getting a reaction you could read out of more than one player.

By the roll being on me, I believe it will actually get more than if I had gotten any other result--on another player, I get maybe one or two comments. On myself, the results could very well be different. I believe that this method will generate the greatest amount of reads possible.

Letting a random vote land on yourself, and then arguing it away as statistics (which you have just done in your last post by saying you needed to leave yourself in the vote list), just screams to me that you want to look fair and impartial.

I'd never leave myself out of a role. No matter what the role is used for, be it a board game or online mafia, I wouldn't do it. As I said, it landing on me might've been a great help to the town, or a hindrance, depending on how others react to it.

When in reality every single person in this game has some info about the roles, even if it is just their own.

This is true. I don't see what it has to do with your point, but it's true...

If you are townie, you know that you are townie. Why would you leave yourself as a possibility for your own random vote?

Why would I, if I had any other role, have any more motivation, for that matter? It's a personal belief of mine. In other words, I don't.

Because you wanted the vote to land on yourself.

I suppose I now know that it has thusfar at least appeared to be benefactory.

You wanted to call attention to the fact that it was a "random" vote, so you could avoid suspicion.

If you wish me to do so, I can go into further details as to why this is not true, but I would personally rather not say.

The only group of people that should want to avoid suspicion are scum.

Newbie scum, yes. But experienced scum, like doctors, cops, and townies, should all welcome the possibility of suspicion and explain why it is wrong/right. Those who avoid suspicion and aren't scum become targets of the scum, which is bad for docs/cops. Those who avoid suspicion and are scum...will either do a rather good job as scum, or won't stay under the radar for long.

Is their another possibility of why you would let yourself be a candidate for random vote?

As I explained, personal preference.

Why did you need to accentuate the fact that the vote was random?

I'm not sure I understand...

It still goes back to A or B, (I don't think C applies to my current train of thought, I could be wrong).

Where do you think I am wrong. I want to continue this...

For reasons above, I disagree. However, I do believe this is worthy of continuation.

[Mastin]

Mastin Unvotes: Mastin

. Mission accomplished. Discussion started.
Another element which I failed to mention about it is that it could have been Fong's gambit (had not thought of it at the time, only thought about it later). If there were newbie scum around, they'd probably vote me in an attempted quick lynch. However, sirdan is the only one who has voted me since then, and I believe the vote has good reason and is not a move to be made by scum.
(Side-note: The game where I mentioned the role allowing me to nail scum? It also landed on me. The *only* people there who voted me were the scum. It worked beautifully there, and is why I did not abandon the roll, nor the possibility of self-rolling)

1. I wanted to show, by posting, that I haven't forgotten or quit the game, thus trying to be a likeable person.

Why the need to appear liked?

2. From my very limited experience of mafia it seems that all votes - even random ones - lead to discussion and discussion helps scumhunting. Trying to be a helpful person.

I agree--it does generate discussion.

3. An answer (of sorts) to Scien who associated random roll voting = minor scummyness. I tend to agree and voted accordingly.

Then why did you vote for Lleu? That had *nothing* to do with the random roll. My role was on myself, not on Lleu. And what about supposedly random voting? It's either random, or it's not.

All good intentions (i hope) but I will try to keep the fluff to a minimum from now on.

I find your answers, for the moment, unsatisfactory. Clarify 1+3, please.
In the mean time,

Mastin Votes: Ub

Although it is called 'random voting stage' this does NOT mean you can just roll the dice and be done with it.

Oh, far from it--I've been looking at the results rather carefully, and find people's reaction to them...interesting, to say the least.

It is not a great tool to give information, but it is one of the best things to get things going, since we have no other information.

I tend to disagree with this point--it gets things going by *giving* us information.

By simply rolling the dice, you are taking away the human aspect of choice from the RVS, and thereby taking away the microscopic amount of information that can be gained by it.

On the contrary, reactions I have gotten from this have produced more information than I believe could have ever been created from normal random voting. I'm still processing it, but for the most part, I believe that Ub's reaction to it has seemed rather scummy, Scien's reaction is pro-town, and your reaction...not sure. It seems too similar to Scien's for my comfort level.

Self voting is a BIG no-no.

During

any other stage of the game

, I would agree with you. During the random voting stage, I find it to be acceptable, as the discussion it generates will create more than enough information to find scum tells out of.

You are the only person you know is town, and voting yourself accomplishes absolutely nothing.

Again, under normal circumstances, I wholeheartedly agree. However, at this point in time, it has accomplished one thing: Getting reactions, and from those reactions, information, and from that information, suspects.

It is very anti town to do this.

Again, under normal circumstances, I would agree. Especially if they're already at L-1 and they lynch themselves *coughslastgame*, but I believe that this time, it worked well for giving us vital information about all the players.

I don't care wether you did this because your dice told you to, in fact that only makes it worse since you have even less reasons to vote yourself.

Unless, of course, I've given you my reasons for doing it already and they amount to a greater reward than not doing it. Which I believe I have.

Just don't self vote EVER again.

Again, for personal reasons, I always allow the possibility of it, as personal experience has shown how it can sometimes NAIL scum.

It is only ever useful in very special settings in theme games with weird mechanics that won't ever occur in newbie games or even mini normal games (for example jesters, assassin in the palace) or maybe if you are mafia and don't want to give away any more information or something.

Disagreed--it has uses elsewhere. Again, personal experience has shown me that, sometimes, self-voting can help nail scum, which is why the role was a blessing in disguise.

Not something you should do as a vanilla townie in a newbie game.

This is perhaps one of the most obvious attempts at rolefishing I have ever seen. How would you know what my role is? What are you trying to do, in getting me to respond to it? Answer: My role.

Also, as for the 'getting discussion going' part, yes, you indeed got discussion going, but does this make you more towny? No.

Agreed.

You did something scummy

I've already explained why I disagree with this conclusion, in that I find it to be rather the null tell.

I didn't like Ubaten's 'to show my intentions' thing, but his explanation was reasonable enough I guess. Still something to keep an eye on, especially in these early stages of the game.

Precisely, especially considering his explanation and his vote contradict. If he thought it was scummy to roll, why not vote the person who did the action?

Eh? How would it generate discussion without some people viewing it as slightly scummy and strange for a townie to do?

It wouldn't, I suppose, looking at what has happened, now. There was some logic behind me doing it, and that logic, I can defend.

I believe scum would have more motivation due to the fact that it keeps them participating while minimizing their attacks on others by A) the random roll itself and B) the fact that the vote landed on yourself.

I don't see why scum, of all people, wouldn't want to attack a person in an attempt to get them lynched. It gets them two pro-town players closer to victory.

A newbie scum could fall behind this thinking it was a good idea. I know you can see this, you seem pretty analytical. A pro-town role using the roll in a 'strange, practically unorthodox' way needs to be examined carefully. There is a reason for the examination.

I am aware of the possibility of newbie scum doing it. I just don't see how they could have more, or even equal, for that matter, motivation to do it, when it is clearly a move that only attracts attention to oneself. I welcome the examination. In return, I will be examining other players' reactions to my actions.

But you are right, it does look like it got some people involved rather quickly. If that was truly your goal, then ok. But IGMEOY (I got my eye on you).

It was one of them. It has also led me to my current top suspect, Ub. Unfortunately, nobody else has really contributed much.

First us as townies don't know your intentions. We have to decide that on our own. Second, I don't think he was questioning that. I think he was questioning that you felt the need to both post and tell everyone that you have good intentions. Seems fishy, sorry.

May I quote this for truth?

It was a joke

, hence the (Sorry!), I guess I should have been more liberal with the ironic smileys. If you look at what Mastin wrote in post 25...

Let me link you to some personal experience of mine: Newbie 742. This funny little game. From it, you should be able to get my opinion on people saying something, and later writing it off as a joke.
Yup, happy with my vote.

Townies, who are aware of their own innocence, shouldn't have to start by proving it, they should be out hunting scum. My thoughts at least, and by targetting yourself for discussion you are not hunting scum, you are trying to make us all believe you are innocent.

Nope--I am both defending myself, and looking at other players' reactions, and from those reactions, I am scum hunting. Particularly your reactions, right now, have caught my attention.

Why would anyone want to draw suspicion to themselves (as you have done)?

You're just reasking Scien's questions, Ub. 1: It generates discussion. 2: It helps scum hunt from the generated discussion. I believe that sums it up rather well.

[Mastin]

You don't think you could have gained more insight when the current quiet people show up? Is their a reason why you think you have currently pushed this tactic as far as you were comfortable to go?
Basically, why is now the right time? You've seen actions from SirDanilot, Me, Ubaten. Counting yourself that's 4. There are 5 others in the game, you think that your change in focus will alter the responses you get when those guys show up? I think they very well might.

I found Ub's reactions scummy, and at least until they are answered, I believe they warranted a vote. Others' insight into this topic would help as well, but at the moment, Ub holds my spot as the most suspicious.

[Mastin]

Something else that I learned is that it is never good to back away from something you've already said and that playing the "newbie-card" seems to be generally frowned upon.

Incorrect. It is better to recognize you made a mistake.

The reason I voted for Lleu is as I said that I believe random votes leads to discussion - in this case Lleu might very well respond to my vote asking me why etc, etc... The point was that it was not a random roll, and I'm sorry but I don't quite understand your last question, could you clarify? What about supposedly random voting? Are you questioning my assumption that your vote was not random?

You said that the role was suspicious, and that you were random voting accordingly. A random vote on Lleu has nothing at all to do with the random role--why?

My point is that this could have been done without me having to be suspicious of you, discussion should be able to flare up with just your ordinary, run-of-the-mill, random votes.

Perhaps, but would it have yielded as much information?

Mastin: What do you think of my perspective on your move, does it make sense?

Enough for me to get the general idea, but I still feel you haven't fully answered my concerns of you, and am content with my vote exactly where it is.

[Mastin]

Could I have a link to this game please? You seem to coming down strangely hard, so I'd like to examine this instance you refer to.

Sure. Scien and I played in Newbie 735 together.

This seems slightly scummy to me. What's so sacred about the RVS that it can't be abandoned?

A fine point, one which I agree with.

Mastin: The thing you do with the dice is "roll." Things such as doc, cop, etc are "role." It's kind of hard to follow when you switch them up.

...Oops. I'll try to be more careful. :/

[Mastin]

To clarify: I don't think the drawing attention to yourself move is scummy in itself but I do think it's detrimental for town and therefore as I said = minor scummyness.

Fair enough.

I voted according to my belief that a random roll vote is a bit scummy and contra-productive and as I prefer not seeming scummy and being productive I voted a random vote instead, with no evidence whatsoever, but at an inactive player.

This paragraph...just...seemed...so...scummy. It's hard to put into words how scummy it is, but let me try.
Again, I'm interpreting this as you voted for Lleu, because Lleu was supposedly inactive, with no evidence, yet you saw me as more scummy and counter-productive, in an effort to appear not scummy yourself.
I can't see a pro-town player thinking like that. It kind of seems like you're trying to lead, well, two lynches, actually.

This doesn't really help. What concerns are these? And please answer my question:

I don't know if there is an answer to that question. I suppose you could say yes, that I'm questioning whether you did what you said you were doing.

I understand that you have a very aggressive playstyle Mastis, you seem awfully eager to have me look like scum...

Ever consider that it might be because I see you currently as the best candidate for scum?

...but without proposing any evidence for your accusations you seem quite scummy to me.

I have been.
-You seem to be constantly contradicting with yourself.
-Your actions suggest the possibility of scum trying to get two different targets lynched, if one fails.
-You've done what I interpreted as dodging against some of my questions.

It is too early to be certain, yes, but you're my best suspect.

Also, if you find him "quite scummy," why not vote?

I can answer this, from both the pro-town and pro-scum perspective, but I do not wish to answer for him, and want to see what Ub has to say about it first...

[Mastin]

Wow. huge explosion in wall of texts.

Sorry. You have me to mainly thank for that. It happens a lot in my games. (742 and 735 are both good examples of this)

At this point, we need more input from the other players since a core of 3-4 players is doing all the talking right now. I cannot scumhunt if nobody else posts.

Agreed.

Mod: Would it be alright to prod anyone who hasn't posted in 48 hours?

Yep, Scien's unofficial participation list:
Mastin - One of the actives.
Ubaten - One of the actives.
Scien - One of the actives.
sirdanilot - One of the actives.
Lleu - Starting to become active.

PhilyEc - Just spoke up. Is catching up with the walls of text.

Santos - Said one thing about a random vote, but is pretty much not here. Mar 29 was last post.
Crysnia - Has said nothing so far. Mar 27 was confirm post.
Barim - Posted his random vote, but nothing else so far. Mar 29 was last post.

I'm currently kind of waiting for PhilyEc's comments on the happenings at the moment. I would also like the last 3 inactives to say something. Crysnia is probably the only prodible right?

This seems just about right.

This discussion is killing me with all the coding errors and no names associated with quotes. Ugh.

...Those mainly happened later on page two. Are you saying you read that far yet haven't said anything? As in, lurking?
It warrants a FoS.

That must mean that we are fairly close to getting some content from you!

Or he already caught up, yet has nothing to say...

Also, only putting a name at the first quote from a certain user is common practice around here and is never hard to understand.

I thought I was the only one, as many seem to disagree...

First post since the random vote; nothing of notable content...it's a little suspicious, also worthy of a minor-strength FoS.

I'm leaning towards Mastin. The vote-or-die-mother****** on his self is suspect.

If you are thinking it is me, then why on earth aren't you voting me?

Especially

after this same question was asked towards Ub? Didn't you claim to have read that?

Sorry for being out of contact for a while, had a stressful day.

Believe it or not, I agree with you on this point...

These are my answers given so far. I'll try to be as clear as I can for this attempt. I agreed with Scien that the random self-vote = minor scummyness, therefore I chose to vote accordingly. This is were my logic might seem strange, so brace yourselves. Voting accordingly meant, for me, not to do as Mastin had done and random self-vote but to do what I thought the most productive: a random vote on an inactive player.

I'm sorry, but for some odd reason, I'm not buying it...
What I see: you're saying that you didn't want to self-vote, found me slightly scummy, and then, without any sort of real explanation, decided to do the normal thing and random vote, despite your suspicions of me.

You clarify this here,

Why then, didn't I vote for Mastin? Because there didn't seem to be any need to vote for Mastin. I might be incorrect here, but a vote is for me a tool for putting pressure on someone to write and defend themselves, that was obviously not necessary since Mastin seemed to be doing quite well without any pressure needing to be applied.

Yet I seem to not be buying that explanation fully, either.
You've explained yourself, but it's taken...how many times to do so? 3? It has a bad vibe coming from it, the kind of vibe which says 'scum who cannot get story straight'. Does that make sense to everyone?

I'm not sure about you all, but when i random vote, I usually look for something trite to random vote day 1 and then see how reactions take towards the random vote.

This is the standard.

Other than that, I'm just wondering when a huge mistake is going to be made by that of scum.

This seems like an excuse to not contribute much until Santos sees what can be interpreted as a huge scumslip. Other thoughts on the matter?

Not trying to pick on you too much, but you are pretty much agreeing with what others have said up till now without much new content. Yes, people see that the random.org thing was fishy. Yes, most just do a random vote with a quick quirp. Yes, Mastin did something that was scummyish if he is a noob scum, but he is claiming that that was his plan in order to flush people out. What do you think specifically about this attempted defense of his actions?

Also, I don't believe scum make a huge mistake unless we are continually providing content and hunting them out to put pressure on them. I still don't believe that you are helping in this regard.

So again: What do you think about Mastin's attempted defense?
Also what do you think of Ubaten's defense about what he meant with whole 'voted accordingly'?

I would very much like to hear your opinions.

Oh, wow, Scien and I think creepily similarly. All of the points directed at you, I'd love to get an answer from.

I am not too keen on this over analysis off of Mastins, he is analysing every single sentence ffs and sugerically mutilating posts.

So...you're FoS'ing me...for being thorough? For looking for scum tells? For actually contributing to the game with my thoughts? [sarcasm]Yea, nothing scummy, there. Let's move on, shall we?[/sarcasm]

Mastins, you need to quit it with pure 'logic' and simply give shorter posts.

So...you want me to stop making sense...to stop actually explaining my actions...you want me to stop showing logic and just go off of other things such as gut...for no other reason other than to have shorter posts? Again, that's just something which I can't feel is anything but scummy.

Keeping up with the game and going through one post at a time might help. For votes obviously a case quoting multiple posts is fine.

And what do you call what I'm doing right now?

Anyway, so far, my list of pro-town appearing players:

Scien,
Sirdan

My list of scummy-looking players, most to least,
Ub,
Santos,
Phil,
Barim.

Reasoning:

Scien and Sirdan have both contributed extremely helpful opinions to the town. Ub's explanations seem like a stretch, Santos's lurking/opinion on me without a vote seems suspicious, Phil disliking long posts and wanting shorter posts might be just an opinion difference, but I found it rather anti-town, and Barim hasn't contributed much, seems to be posting just often enough to avoid a prod.

[Mastin]

Far too eager to find scum when we have a ton of time to get a mass of scum acts from players.

I can give evidence as to why it is my playstyle to 'scum hunt from page negative one'.

Get your foot out my mouth plz? Done? Thanks! Any example of what I think of your actions is;
Dude: Vote Blah, sorry but you're obviously the last scum.
Mastins: ZOMG 'sorry' buddying if I've ever seen it! Lets waste an entire page into why it is or not! Why do you question me? ITs pro town! You're anti town for thinking its not helpful!

If you expected me to understand a word of that, you are sadly mistaking...

You're making mince of posts and overcomplicating things.

On the contrary, I believe, for the most part, I am looking at the simpler explanations.

Relax and take your time is my only advice, I'm not the only one that doesnt find your MASS POSTING helpful. Are we all wrong?

Why wait to scum hunt? Why take time to make your suspicions?
And who, might I ask, besides you finds my posting not helpful? I have seen no such opinions except from you.

Are your questions answered? Should I expected another array of them? ¬¬

Why so afraid of the questions I ask? A pro-town player should be open to opinions, and ready to answer almost any and nearly all questions directed at them.

Yea, I'm happy with my current FoS's. I know, not all of them can be scum, but I find it very probable that it is likely two of them are. Just my current thoughts on the issue.
Other opinions?

[Mastin]

The game has become stagnant and alot of people aint posting.

Agreed. We need more posters.

Its because those GIANT posts so early are selfish efforts to look town to other players.

Disagreed strongly. These posts get the point across, and do so well. There is no selfishness in them, and it is rather the opposite, in showing your devotion to the town. You're a one-man army against all the other players here in this matter, I believe, Phil--you're the only one here who seems to hate long posts this early on. And, quite frankly, let me put it to you this way: I have never seen a game where there have not been long posts, which get longer as the game goes on.
If you can honestly not handle simple posts of this length, then I am sorry, and you can always ask for replacement if it is that frustrating to you to read a great deal.

Unfortunately, this act discourages widespread contributions.

I find the opposite is true--it encourages people to post more often.

I think acts which stagnate the entire game deserve an FoS as its directly effecting our ability to find scum.

Your whole FoS is based off of the fact that I am posting long posts, when it has been and always will be my style to do so. For this, I can give links as evidence. And in both cases, my long posts had the opposite outcome you're describing--people known to post infrequently...were posting frequently. In this game, the people not posting frequently...are just inactive. Crysnia has a HISTORY of going inactive half-way through a game, to give an example.

Scum attempting to take over the reigns of scumhunts to direct them in the wrong way. It takes skill but I dont quite buy it. I think the effort to look town is far too strong on his part (considering its only been 4 pages and his posts are huge).

Never heard of the term. As for looking town, why do you think that this is the case? Why do you think that something I've done in all my true games is unusual?

Afraid of his posts? No. Find them majorly needless in size? Yes. Its making me not want to play the game and I'd say others could agree on this opinion considering the amount of activity.

Disagreed. I have yet to see even a single opinion besides yours agreeing with you about the size of posts. The longer a post is, the more likely it is to find tells in it, scum or town. Naturally, scum will try to talk less in order to drop fewer scum tells. And pro-town players will try to post more, to give more town tells. Long posts are a pro-town trait; a dislike of them is a pro-scum trait.

As if I want him to stop posting? You can stop right there. I dont approve of HUGE POSTS IN FIRST 3 PAGES.

Kay?

And I do not approve of a policy such as this, disliking long posts, in ANY stage of the game. I don't care if it's pregame or postgame; I do not approve of those who dislike long posts, as I will always find it scummy.

I want this game to go efficiently and be readable. Not see this game turn into a 3 hour shitting session every page every post, giant walls of text boucing back and forth between a minority of players.

It creates confusion, end of.

Disagreed, very, very,

VERY

strongly. SHORTER posts are what create confusion. People are LESS clear about their points, and so, it is EASIER to be misunderstood. And that is NEVER a good thing. LONGER posts CLARIFY matters MUCH better, and are FAR less likely to be misunderstood.

I think there is a wiki on that somewhere... Too_Townie.

Scien is correct.

There is no way to prove that.

I agree with Scien, here, in that you are basing this evidence off of nothing. I have proof to the contrary, in Newbie 735 and 742. You are drawing arguments from THIS game, which both Scien and I disagree with, and have given no evidence from previous games that can PROVE this. In other words, I see your point as a load of bs.

out of context by the butcher known as Mastins.

By the way, this is getting annoying. For the last time, there's only one 's' in my name, between the 'a' and the 't'. It's "Mastin", not "Mastins", nor "Mastis", nor "Mastisn".

Okay, so I dont like your playstyle? Its still bad for town in the long run as it promotes back to back long posts and leaves other players/replacements in the dark.

I disagree. I find that the worst thing for the town in the long run is to make short posts, which are easy to misunderstand. Other players should be able to read them.

Scum keep to their playstyles to avoid metaing so why would this matter? you are still fully possible scum.

Your whole argument is based off of me trying to basically swarm people wit my long posts to confuse them. Yet in both links I can give, I was the COP. Spelled C-O-P, not S-C-U-M, nor M-A-F-I-A. It is part of my playstyle to do so, and you're arguing that what I am doing is based off of the possibility that I'm just scum in all of those games and am consistently doing the same thing.

Read your posts and you'll see what parts I decided to bring into my 'paraphrasing', this is exactly how I see you. A butcherer of text and manipulation of (my) opinion.

Show me exactly where I am supposedly manipulating your opinion, 'twisting your words'. I am interested in how this opinion is even remotely possible.

Yet you leave me having to explain my own opinion on long/short posts, more reason for me think consider your posts a waste of town time.

Any good player, town or scum, should be able to explain their opinions, and when asked to do so, should. However, scum tend to have more trouble explaining their opinions.

Of players effort. Of efforts that could be devoted towards reading more inviting texts in order to see any scummy traits.

It is pro-town to ask questions. It is pro-town to examine the answers of those questions, looking for scum tells within them. It is not a waste of time, but rather, time well spent.

More butchering, I said 'relax and take your time' never have I told you to STOP.

And so was I. I said why slow down? Why slow down in scum hunting? Can you honestly give a good reason for THAT?

Suspicions grow as the thread grows.

And the thread grows by people posting frequently with large posts.

Hurling in every suspicion into the same post that crosses your mind doesnt help, understand what I'm getting at yet?

Quite frankly, no, I do not see what you're saying AT ALL. Saying all of one's thoughts is something that I actively encourage people to do, and is what I have done for a long time.

Concentrate on the scummiest actions until you're satisfied.

This leads to tunnel vision. Are you actively encouraging people to tunnel, JUST to keep their posts shorter?

Thats what I think helps all players and not just your own position(town or scum) in others opinions.

While I have stated all of my suspicions, I do agree that it is best to focus mainly on those two (Still Ub, Santos), however, I disagree VERY STRONGLY about going for ONLY the top two suspects. It is anti-town behavior, and only causes trouble.

I'm open to opinions but your questions settle only your curiousities about my opinions rather than pursuing something that could imply im scum.

Your answers help DETERMINE if I think you're scum or not. There is very little curiosity involved. It's scum hunting, and by asking the questions I do, the answers help determine whether you're scum or not. They, contrary to what you say, DO help imply whether you're scum or not.

Do you see the scumminess in that? The amount of questions over such an easily understandable fact?

I see a scumminess in your increasing suspicion over me for something that seems so...normal to me. I see no scumminess AT ALL in the amount of questions, ESPECIALLY since NOBODY is understanding your supposed 'fact'. Scien hasn't. I haven't. I imagine that when the players asleep and caught up log on to post, they won't, either.

I in fact, find them very useless and this was my point from the beginning.

Rather the opposite. I have found them very, very useful in determining something: You're either the worst scum ever, with the most absurd opinion I've ever seen (and TRUST me: I've seen some bad opinions [...mostly my own in my first game ever which I prefer to stay away from]), or you're just a really bad pro-town player, whose opinions will only harm the town in the long run. I strongly believe the latter is the case.

Due to the volume of text this early, I think its a fair enough opinion.

And I tend to strongly disagree, for reasons I have stated so far.

Though im sure I'll have to say this again another half dozen times

Saying it a thousand times over and over again won't change the fact that nobody will believe you.

Scien, far too dismissive.

Question: Have you actually read Scien's posts in 735? He was like this there as well. Scien was right: This is a text-based game. If you can't read what it posted, if you refuse to look at links which are meant to solidify points, then, quite frankly, you're only harming yourself.

Defending Mantins from what I see as you continue to question and dismiss whatever I say.

Hey, Phil, ever consider, FOR EVEN ONE MOMENT, that maybe,

just maybe

that both Scien and I are correct and that *you* are wrong? Yea, I didn't think so.

Town should really look into how credible this is when considering this is the kind of action we wait for scum to make.

I do not understand what you are saying here at all. What, in the name of the earth, could the scum possibly be doing in this context that the town will not?

Vote Scien far too devoted to this little topic.

So...you're voting a person for sticking to his well-founded beliefs, and for being devoted to the game? Oh, joy. I thought self-hammering was about the worst kind of pro-town player I'd ever find. If you are, indeed, pro-town...let's just say that I will try to avoid you in the future. Your points are something I cannot find myself possibly agreeing with. Many of them make no sense, and those that do are incredibly anti-town. I really didn't think anyone could possibly believe such bs was fact.

[Mastin]

Not Voting: 3 (Santos, Mastin, Crysnia)

I could've sworn I never unvoted Ub...

It may hold no relevance to what Mastin's allegiance is now, but I've used this tactic before and it failed miserably because it was too suspect in trying to say 'I'm trying to provoke scum to voting me' when in reality town players figure this is just a scum trick on the town. FYI, I was scum in that game giving the self-vote a shot to try and 'find scum'. Discuss.

Link required.

Okay. Thanks?

I believe there's a wiki article called 'lynch all lurkers', and you just admitted to lurking.

Maybe because I'm not a trigger happy guy? Although it warrants an FOS for self-voting, it doesn't mean you should die asap. Day 1 should never end this early on a risk you took. So its worth some discussion; or would you really like me to vote you?

You are suspicious of me. Why on earth would you not vote for who you are suspicious of?

You're quite right, sir. How else do you scum hunt unless you're a scum trying to provoke something because the day has started slowly? I am a very patient in waiting for a scum slip. They'll come.

Why wait? Why wait for a scum slip, when they are right in front of your eyes, in posts? Guess what? I find your attitude toward the matter as rather anti-town. (AKA, possibly a scum slip)

Did I answer them to your satisfaction, Mastin?

I suppose, but your answers warrant more questions.

So you're saying I should vote you because you admit you're scum and are not making a stupid townie risk in self-voting?

Blatant twisting of my words. I said that you not voting me, when you had suspicions of me, in addition to lurking, is suspicious. How on earth does that translate to the above quote?

[Mastin]

Why not?

I answered this--

Why wait? Why wait for a scum slip, when they are right in front of your eyes, in posts? Guess what? I find your attitude toward the matter as rather anti-town. (AKA, possibly a scum slip)

This may appear as a cop out, but it was in another forum I play at.

I believe you. You either are making one of the most elaborate lies of all time, or are telling the truth. Obviously, I believe the latter is true. (I also can't give links to many of the things I draw experience from) I just prefer links, so that I can read what happened there.

because it was meta.

Meta is good. Knowing how a player plays as scum, and as town, has stopped me from trying to lynch them when they were town.

The problem I have with a townie self-voting himself is because you're basically asking everyone to vote you.

And then, the players voting me will realize just how scummy they look later on. Again, I've stated my reasoning for this many times.

You've just random voted yourself and are trying to get a rise out of yourself? Silly right?

Rather, it gets reactions out of all the players who choose to ponder over the matter, in other words, people such as you voting me because of it.

Either you're an ace at scum, or a wizard playing a townie.

False dilemma.

You seriously believe all lurkers are all scum?

No, but lurking is a scum tell. If lurking weren't a scum tell, everyone would do it, games would die out, etc. It is a scum tell, so people tend to try and avoid lurking in order to prevent themselves from looking suspicious.

Fine, I will. Vote: Mastin You're getting what you asked for, however, you're asking the wrong person to vote for you.

Believe it or not, this actually makes me less suspicious of you...

Reasoning: Again, I find it suspicious that people won't vote on their suspicions when they're not already suspicious of a player.

Oh noes. I'm shaking in my space boots.

And it was a blatant twisting of your words. Why do you think I did that?

I did not understand.



Anyway, so far,

Scien still looks like town,
Sirdan, we need to hear more from, but still looks pro-town,

Ub still holds my primary suspicions,
I still have doubts about Santos, but he has recently done a good job of defending himself,
Barim still has yet to post to my satisfaction, just barely avoiding a prod, and...
Phil's opinion seems like a difference in philosophies more than a tell about his alignment.

[Mastin]

Mastin: long is not always better. It can sometimes help to bullet points (like scien did) or make a short, concise post to clear things up.

I normally post a long post, and then give my summary of my thoughts near the end.

(or whatever their name was, you know who I mean anyway)

Crysnia is known for this. :/

Phily's case against me is that I post long, and that I agree with someone's current view of the game?

I believe so, yes.

[Mastin]

Also, having too much conversation tends to convolute conversation, hence why I am not asking for everyone to give us walls of text to search through as you appear to want. The simplest of posts can, just as well, prove to be scummy. Otherwise, I don't know how else to explain this to you.

You can explain *why* and *what* makes them scummy.

Vote Count: 5 to lynch

Mastin: 2 (Scien, Santos)
sirdanilot: 1 (Lleu)
PhilyEc: 1 (Barim)
Santos: 1 (sirdanilot)
Scien: 1 (PhilyEc)

Not Voting: 2 (Mastin, Crysnia)

...Isn't this a nine-player game? I'm seeing only eight, here. Where's Ub? Why am I not voting Ub? I don't recall unvoting at any specific time. I know, this vote count is a page old, but it could confuse people later on in the game in a re-read.

IMO, scum's number one mistake is to try and lead the town.

Disagreed strongly on this one. No good player tries to lead the town completely. They give their cases against a player, vote on it, and ask others to review that evidence closely. And when it *is* done, it is done far more often by the town.

Scien jumped to defenses the second I posted negativity towards Mastins which just screams scum trying to look as town as possible and reflect suspicion.

Isn't this exactly whats happened? I never address Scien until he did the favour first and then after he got HEAVILY involved. I even got double teamed at some point on page 4 for a good few posts~

Or perhaps Scien just thought your attack on me was unjust with bad logic.

3) Both are town and merely semantic fanboys. (Unlikely due to context of disagreement being so dwelled upon).

I agree that it is pointless to dwell over obvious conflict of opinions. And I believe the conversation was just that--I don't think you're scum; I think our opinions just differ.

Hey guys! This is my first game, and I'm excited. I'll review the thread and get back to y'all with my thoughts soon.

Oh, boy. *apologizes* You chose a bad game to replace into--I'm known for writing novels. :/

LOL. I feel like I was tricked somehow. I came in thinking hey, only 5 pages, sweet!

*Apologizes again* My bad.

4. Ubaten - Seemed kinda desperate to please starting out, which was weird. The vote was also kinda weird. The lack of scumhunting is worrisome.

Add to that, lurking, and the fact that the mod forgot that Ub even existed due to some serious lack of posting.

I fail to see the big difference between Mastin's scumhunting, and my nit-picking.

A point I also share.

1. The majority of Mastin's posts were defensive. The majority of yours are offensive.

In my honest opinion, I find that offensive posts are more pro-town than defensive posts.

Wow, huge playstyle clash in this game.

Agreed. But clashes in playstyles shouldn't be enough reason to vote.

And if you are involved in every topic, you can direct its flow.

I dunno. Am I really the only one seeing this? Either you're an extremely aggressive townie or you're what I suspect you are.

1: Pro-town players have just as much motivation to direct topics as pro-scum. At worst, it's a null tell.
2: I see nothing of concern in Scien's posts.
3: Scien plays like this all the time. I confirm this.

Vote Count: 5 to lynch

PhilyEc: 2 (MiteyMouse, Scien)
Scien: 2 (PhilyEc, Papa Zito)
Mastin: 1 (Santos)
sirdanilot: 1 (Lleu)
Santos: 1 (sirdanilot)

Not Voting: 1 (Mastin)

Lightning doesn't strike twice.

Mod: Please note that F-11 setups have 9 players on day one, not eight, and one of ours is just inactive.

Hi everyone! I look forward to playing with you all! I'm going to do a quick read and I'll be back with my thoughts soon!

I extend my apologies to you. :/

Where is Lleu?

Where were you? Lurking again?

(Suspects, most to least:
Ub
Santos
Papa
--I can give reasoning as to each of these)

[Mastin]

Mod: I should be voting Ubaten, and I believe Ubaten is still voting me--I haven't recalled seeing either unvote.

Yes plz.

Short version short,
-Ub is lurking, and didn't answer my questions to my satisfaction.
-Santos's reactions have been very scummy, and he has shown an overall lack of desire to do any real scum hunting.
-Papa's inconsistent attitude between Scien and I, when we have posted similarly, and his reactions towards Sirdan seem fairly anti-town. It's not a large suspicion.

More details can be provided if requested, but people seem to have a dislike for *that* many long posts from me, so I'm trying to keep it shorter.

I have also decided who I think is most pro town as well. I will have a summary soon because there are some very obvious town, scum arguments going on as well as buddying (which, IMO, is the most dangerous thing to do if scum were going to try it IE Mastin/Scien).

Please share.
And clarify--are you saying you find it extremely doubtful that Scien and I are both scum, due to early buddying? That's what I interpreted from this.

Hopefully that helps.

It does--and I understand. If you think the scum are trying to deter you, keep on going. If you think the town as a whole is trying to deter you, chances are, it is best to stop. So long as you don't let this become following the majority blindly, it is a good trend, for the most part.

Hey I have a question for everyone: What do you think the setup is?

Largest rolefish ever...

I am the cop you fuktards.

And...largest surprise, ever. Especially with only two votes on you...

I'm not sure whether I believe the claim, but let's just say I have bad experience when seeing cops claim, or worse, not claiming, and getting lynched day one, so at the very least, we should wait a day before we even consider lynching him--his results or lack thereof can help us determine if he is lying or not.

If Santos isn't the real cop, I would advise against the real cop counter-claiming today. Yes, we get one scum for the power role from a claim, but if you wait a day and maybe get an investigation result, you will put the town at a significant advantage.

Other thoughts on the matter?

[Mastin]

HUGE FoS: MiteyMouse because I was not role fishing as you were implying, but rather seeking insight regarding the game. You twisted my words and are quite simply scum in my eyes now.

No, I'm fairly certain anyone would read your post as rolefishing.

The town doesn't know what setup it is.

The scum know one of two setups it is.

The town power roles, if existing, know one of two setups they are in.

To answer with what setup people think it is is to imply what role they are. I also saw it as a rolefish.

[Mastin]

To go into more detail on the claim:

Santos's attitude is consistent with both cops, and scum.

-Cops tend to stay away from scum hunting day one, barely contributing to avoid being the night kill. It's scummy as possible, yes, but they know they're not going to be lynched.
Santos fits this perfectly, from what I have seen.
-Scum tend to put less effort if any into scum hunting, as if they were to truly try, they might end up lynching their partner or looking more scummy than not scum hunting would be, say, if they lynched a power role.
Santos doesn't fit as well into this category.

In summary,
-Santos's actions as cop make sense,
-Santos's actions as scum make nearly as much sense,
-Santos's overall feel and attitude towards the game was rather anti-town,
-I am divided between believing and disbelieving the claim,
-Yet regardless of what I think, it would be a bad idea to lynch the cop claim day one.

[Mastin]

mod replace me.

*sighs*

You didn't have to do anything radical. All you had to do is do a little scum hunting instead of lurk. That's all it would have taken. Don't replace out because we thought it was scummy for you to do something that might be your play style. It's not much to ask for a little contribution...

[Mastin]

Well, before I spill the beans on who I think is more pro town, I would like to get an okay from at least a few people...if you don't mind.

It would be very good, yes.

xRECKONERx replaced Lleu. Welcome to the game, xRECKONERx!

See you in a week or so...

I still support an Ub lynch.

[Mastin]

Uh? Even before he is replaced?

His actions have been the most scummy. I'm not sure even a replacement can make up for this fact.

Lynching me because of the previous player

I have bad experience with people replacing out that were scummy, and those replacing in doing their best. They were scum. (688, and 735 both have this--Scien can confirm the latter. Ultimation and Chimera, the top two suspects of day three, were replaced by And and Kier, who did their best to fight for a win. Sure, they lost, but the other one [688] ended with a scum victory--which is ironic, considering the two scum HAD been nailed on page two)

The Folks We Need To Decide On:

I agree with almost all the points on your assessment of the players, but won't quote it all.

[Mastin]

Phil's gone. I'm fairly certain that he didn't need to be lynched. I think he just disappeared from all games he was in...

I would have much preferred a lynch of Henrz.

I currently still think Hen, and probably one of the three here: Reckon, Mitey, or Papa are the mafia we're looking for.

[Mastin]

My thoughts:

I was night-killed for a reason.
1: The lynch of Phil was a HUGE mistake. We should've lynched one of the top suspects. Like Henrz, to avoid today's mislynch.
2: I was right in protecting Scien, though I needed it more. :/
3: WHY THE HECK DID YOU LYNCH THE SELF-VOTING COP?!? Seriously, I've NEVER seen scum self-vote. I've always seen pro-town players do it.
Panzer self-hammered.
Hohum self-hammered,
you get the idea.

4: I knew Scien was pro-town due to the identical playstyle of 735.
5: I PM'd the mod my suspects after I was night-killed.
6: Of my suspects, it was clear at least one was going to be scum. Scien was pro-town, Santos's claim and attitude was pro-town (kinda), Sirdan was obviously pro-town, I knew I was pro-town, I thought Phil was pro-town (why the lynch was a mistake), leaving only four left. Henrz was my top, of course, due to Ub's attitude. :/

I thought Papa was scum after Sirdan was killed.

Seriously, WHO WAS PAPA'S PRIMARY DEBATER? :/

Logic:

Why I'm night-killed. <_<

[Mastin]

Sup town?

What's up?

Soil. Above the soil, a gravestone. Above the gravestone, the sky.

As in, yea...

(I was definitely wishing Mitey would replace out so that I could get back in AS SCUM because I KNEW we were going to lose this game. I had the offer available)

[Mastin]

Of course, if you want me to replace into [763] if a replacement is ever needed, I'd be happy to do so, but in [the] game, all players are active, so this is doubtful.
So, meh, as I'm dead, I'll just take assumptions as to who the mafia are that killed me.
Henrz and Papa_Zito are the mafia in 762.

My opinion on Papa was solidified after the Sirdan night-kill. Henrz should've been lynched days earlier to avoid a mislynch early on, as I thought that my suspicions (amongst others) got me night-killed. Mitey's lurking I found terrible, and Mitey's poor cases were what sealed the deal and changed my opinion, there.
As I had thought of who the mafia were, and knew that it was doubtful that we'd win due to two terrible mislynches, I wanted to replace back in due to the fact that the scum had a nearly guaranteed victory after those two mislynches.

[Mastin]

Phil's gone. I'm fairly certain that he didn't need to be lynched. I think he just disappeared from all games he was in...

I would have much preferred a lynch of Henrz.

I currently still think Hen, and probably one of the three here: Reckon, Mitey, or Papa are the mafia we're looking for.

Seriously, I would've lynched Henrz d2 and might've gone for Reckon d3. You didn't have to kill me. :/