Micro Normal 1094 | Game Over!

[Arko]

small heads up that I kinda need to sleep so... no posts for now. I'll get back to you guys when I'm awake, and have time.

[Arko]

Woo baby, I haven't really existed recently so I've got thoughts to say. It's time for a classic style reads list

Hu Tao - Town -

Effort! Much, much effort. And all of it feels like it's coming from a town perspective. Doesn't feel like it's coming from the ass. Honestly, I'm in the same boat as most people here.

Testa - Possible Town -

Feels like a bold townie. Hasn't talked much, and the instant E-1 is dumb, but It feels more like brave, to the point of stupid townie, not Too dumb that it doesn't even look too dumb type scum- Like inhumanly dumb. And honestly- I can see the machinations of the mind behind their current decisions, I can see what they are going for. But, currently 3 posts from them, and they could easily be just scum faking the bold part. I don't feel that though.

Gamma - Possible Town -

It's earlier in the day, and while their posts are mainly short, I don't see anything wrong with them. This one is somewhere in-between Neutral and Possible Town. I picked possible town since well... They have definitely felt more reactionary than pushing the game forward, but what reaction there has been has been mostly town to me. but this read is an easy changer.

ORAM - Neutral -

Triggers a bit of scum feelings with me, but otherwise they feel normal townie. Their thoughts to me seem on the townie train of thought... but there have been a bit of things that have pinged scum. I'm not sure about it but there is a non-ignorable chance that it's scum trying to follow a townie-type train of thought without being a parrot or generic. I'm genuinely not sure where to place them, but definitely not enough scum feelings to put in null, and there is enough town to keep them out of null for me.

Kittie - Neutral -

Basically non existant due to other reasons. considering I was doing the same thing for 1 and a half days since the start, I kinda have no right to judge it, because I'd be a hypocrite. and honestly there isn't even posts to read either way.

Naerys - Neutral -

Has like 3 posts. No pushing game forward, no real reaction. Needs to either react, push the game forward or discuss what's currently going on, honestly. It's a slippery slope to being null.

Black - Null -

Something is pinging to me here that black is scum. Considering I completed 1 game with them as scum... it feels similar to that game. but it also feels just mildy scummy. and then town at the same time. It's unironically a 50/50 whether they are town or scum, and that's not a good thing. I'm saying it now, I'm not feeling black as town. And I don't like it. If Thom is scum, I'm honestly feeling this has a higher chance of being scum if not.

Thom - Null -

I'm not gonna list what has been said already, it's pretty obvious I agree just by the position. However, the thing I DO want to add is their interactions with black generally read to me like crazy as either scum trying to follow a townie, or a scum acting pair-pair with their partner then realizing: I should probably distance. Yeah, if black's scum the chance of thom being scum is definitely higher. More than what black would be if thom flipped scum though- the first scenario mentioned should be a good explanation.

[Arko]

That was honestly slightly hard to make since well- 80 Posts plus the fact 3 people aren't really posting.

[Arko]

I'll address the part about black later- I've got a bit of shit to do, don't think there is enough time tonight to really address that, honestly. I'll get to it tomorrow. And I've got pizza coming.

1 - Oram -

It's still a neutral read, and they have 4 posts but I'll point out what feels scummy and townie. ISO 0 is NAI, but the general sitch there WAS a bit dodgy. Not sure WHERE in the chain though it was dodgy- vote 1 on black wasn't shocking, vote 4 (yours) was bold- a lil too bold for scum. so I've got a feeling the dodgy part is vote 2 or 3. It's less about the content, and more the chain of votes itself was pretty fucky. It's not directly scummy, but has the possibility to be done by scum. Probably a statistical read if anything. ISO 1 is just stating the obvious. considering it's still page 1 with that post, it's pretty NAI. ISO 2 is dismissive. NAI, but dismissive posts CAN be used to scumread. There isn't enough posts though to use it. ISO 3 can be seen as a townie train of thought, but I can't really tell how like it's truthful, or real. Basically- Slight bits of town, slight bits of scum, mostly NAI. not swinging either way to be town or scum, not enough of both to be null. If anything, oram is slightly more town than scum. but it's pretty hard to distinguish.

2 - Thom/Black -

My thoughts on it is that there is very likely one within it- considering their interactions. but of them being a team, yes that's a likelyhood. My feeling on that was mainly how honestly, both thom's AND black's interactions didn't feel very real when interacting with each other. It's possible ONE can be town, and like- statistically possible both are, no confirmations on that type of thing. But I do feel that they are more likely paired to each other if one is scum than someone else. I actually made a small mention that black flipping scum is way less meaningful on thom than thom flipping scum on black- Due to the possibility of thom following black, and the fact black DID accuse thom.

3 - Naerys -

Yeah, I can see why. I didn't really order my reads by least scum to most scum- but yes, I did mention the fact Naerys was on a bit of a slippery slope to null, as they are closer to being scum than town by a sliiiigggghhhht bit. so yes, I do actually agree with you in not really liking the posts. but personally, too little posts, and not too strong of a dislike for me to put in null.

[Arko]

No, the bold is just there to give a "Title" to a topic. and no, it's directly brought up in that that either TvS or SvS is possible.

[Arko]

so, I'll just address a few things before I get to making the black post. Might take 1-2 hours.

1: Kittiesecret's post: Nice to see some thoughts from you. Also, another person mentioning black and similarities to previous games. I'll delve a bit deeper into the case in my next post (besides a few questions, I'll answer them first. I'll be comparing the game I played with black, a more recent game and this game.)

2: Black's latest response: Inflated and Wordy? I prefer to explain my reads (Whether you want to call it verbose or not) than just give no reasons. Having reasons lowers the amount of questions of "Why!", Increases the amount of questions based on both elaborating further and "How?", generally pushes the game further. It leaves more room for discussion over reaction. If you leave it to why!1111?? you are wasting time, and just fufilling the minimum of expressing your thoughts. Considering I was catching up, I did by a reads list with reasons, instead of reads and posts explaining why after or just, posts before giving the obvious picture. You did it too, you explained before and after the readslist of your own. I did it in a different way.

3: Klick voting Hu Tao: Can I get some like, thoughts on this vote? you are probably the first person here to have something besides a town read, let alone having a scum read. Would also be nice to hear your thoughts on more than just Hu Tao though.

4: Thom: It means that if black flipped scum, it would have more of an impact on your chances of being scum than if you flipped scum on black.

[Arko]

Oh boy, It's time to dissect some shit. Comparing the first 15 Posts of This game (since I only really have time for that much, and I made my mind up fully there), a town game, the mafia game I was town in, and a more recent mafia game. HOLY LONG POST. It took forever too. We will be using Open 885, and Newbie 2116 for scum, and Open 891 for town.

Spoiler: ISO 0-4 - The valley of NAI

ISO 0/1 -

Every game it's a hello/RVS vote. I decided to not quote any of them, since this is FULL NAI territory. These are basically, completely pointless. There isn't any difference in these two posts with black in any of the games.

ISO 2 -

Still in NAI territory, but bear with me. ISO 2 of this game and Open 885 are both NAI. Not even quote worthy. however, I'll quote O891 and link N2116 for this one.

I'm not sure I see the scumminess in Dunn's entrance. Maybe a doing to much type thing but that's it

LINK
Both are questions. Not really too alignment indicative, but keep note of the type of questions.Town!black here had a more discussion question, while Scum!black had a question I'd say was more of a game pushing type. I'll just give classifications: Reactionary questions are questioning a vote on you, a scumread on you or questioning a question. Discussion questions are questioning someone else and their thoughts- like why do you have that read? for example. and a Game pushing question (Or one trying to pretend to be!) is questioning someone that hasn't been questioned, or for example- asking for reads. Infact, I'll keep a tally of which type of questions Black makes, the scum!Black makes, and Town!black makes. It's in order of Reactionary/Discussion/Game-Pushing, by the way.
Tally:
Current: 0R/0D/0G
Town: 0R/1D/0G
Scum: 0R/0D/1G

ISO 3 -

In the current game, she swaps her RVS vote onto Testa for voting her the 4th time. In O885, she makes a completely NAI comment about terms used for executions/eliminations. Pointless. in N2116 she accepts the reply to her question, totally NAI. However, in O891, in her town game, we have a new question to add to the tally list.

And why is that?

well for one it implies that Im just a VT

Why would this make you super not stoked about what he's saying and then why does that lead to a vote?

Add 1 to the discussion questions, please.
Current: 0R/0D/0G
Town: 0R/2D/0G
Scum: 0R/0D/1G

ISO 4 -

All of ISO 4 Posts in every game are pretty fucken NAI. Current is about the scummies, O885 is about Aureal posting at the same time as them, N2116 is about why putting some to E-2 on RVS isn't bad. However O891, her town game has an actual tinsy tiny bit of content relating to the game, unlike her current and her scum games. It's only a continuation to "Why did you get angry about being called a VT???" but it's related to the game.

Spoiler: ISO 5-9 - Comparisons!

ISO 5-7 -

I decided to bundle these together for a small comparison.

Feel like anybody who actually hammered her so early would be scumclaiming anyway.

This kinda feels like you know I'll flip town

I’m mostly applying the rules on titles on this site to the Scummies, and you aren’t supposed to ask for/propose titles for yourself outside of special events (which haven’t happened in a while?)

Ok I see. I wasn't aware. I've already been nominated fwiw, but I'll try not to talk about it anymore

Feel like anybody who actually hammered her so early would be scumclaiming anyway.

This kinda feels like you know I'll flip town

This seems like a stretch

Funny, that's how I feel about your Thomith read

This is from the current game. Accusatory, then NAI, then Reactionary while defending thom. It isn't a reactionary question, so nothing added to the tally but still, definitely reactionary. Next up: Scum.
O885:

No! How else am I supposed to pocket you!

you should know by now you don't need to try. I exist to be in your pocket. kinda like a baby kangaroo. it's my happy place

Generic trying to read and solve already is probably a good sign?

Generic trying to read and solve already is probably a good sign?

Reasoning for my read: I thought the way that Black said this was weird. Like, why not explain why Generic's solving could be a good or bad sign?

there's not really much to explain. i thought Generic's read felt natural

I don't mind T3's vote on me. I like that he admitted he was grasping at straws to start discussion

CCG's vote feels bad though. Putting me at e-2 by piggybacking off of someone grasping at straws and doubling down on their point feels off

N2116:
ISO 5
ISO 6
ISO 7
Both follow the same pattern here. They defend a townie, and have a reactionary post. In O885 the townie defense is ISO 5 and 6, and the reactionary post (Was also an accusation!) was at ISO 7. In N2116, they defend a townie on ISO 6, and on ISO 7 they reacted to Delta (a townie) accusing them. Reactionary post there folks. so, what about the town 5-7 area?
O891:

VOTE: pisskop

I think if this flips red then SS could be partnered

I don't really like how SS showed up and didn't say anything about pisskop and the conversation going on with him. 33 sorta feels on-the-fence regarding Dunn's motives which isn't really scummy by itself but in this situation it feels like he might be trying to get ahead of the pisskop wagon and pre-emptively alleviate some pressure there

Obviously this is just a gut feeling based on another gut feeling so I don't have much confidence in it atm

she accuses earlier in this one, doesn't try to defend anyone, tries to solve further than a reaction/"No reason for this guy to be than scum", and actually seems uncertain.
If you compare it, her current game is structured WAY closer to her scum games than her town games.

ISO 8/9 -

Let's again compare her current game, the recent scum game and the town game. Not using the newbie one, since ISO 8/9 there is pretty NAI.
Current Game:

VOTE: Hu Tao

Why are you framing it as him repeating information and not him giving a reason for his vote?

I agree with him that putting me at e-1 isn't necessarily scum indicative, but it's not very pro-town and I don't see any issue with him voting Testarossa for it

Mafia Game (O885):

The dayvig was a reference to a random newbie game I tuhink 2123

This was one of my favorite Mafia moments in recent memory

CCGeek, how can you find T3's aggression possibly 'faux' but also agree with the point he made?

Oh right because you're scum.

You may be right here

VOTE: CCGeek

And Finally, Town game. (O891):

And furthermore, they call to meta. Which is more interesting than any defense you feel might be happening.

Wdym?

No, but I guess I just thought you should have some opinions on his reactions and his vote on Dunn

so, let's begin. In her scum game, she seems way more confident in her reads and even votes for it, while in the other one she doesn't even vote for many posts past this. Now compare: Which one seems more similar to the current game??? hmmmmmmmmm.... also gotta add more to the tally. Discussion question, still wdym though.
Current: 0R/0D/0G
Town: 0R/3D/0G
Scum: 0R/0D/1G

Spoiler: ISO 10-14 - JUUUUUDDGGEEEMENNT CAAALLLL!

ISO 10-12 -

so, this is the first time that black acts COMPLETELY opposite as she did as scum... and not in a good way. she unvotes Hu Tao and goes for thom within 2 posts. However, in her previous scum game (O885) she stayed on her vote until ISO 24. The thing is- In both examples, she's extremely confident both before the swap AND after the swap. however, in a town game she doesn't even vote for a while, and is a lot less votehoppy OR as overconfident in her reads. I dunno how to say it but- she is less 1 dimensional, ON/OFF switch in her town games compared to her scum games, and she feels like just as much of an ON/OFF switch in this game as she did there. I don't think I need to really quote anything, but I will anyways to make it easier to get my point. Also again, reactionary in both current and scum. Also, she asks questions outside of her focus on her town game, which she didn't this game or the scum game. Also have to add a new question to the scum side of the question tally. you can see why below.
Current: 0R/0D/0G
Town: 0R/3D/0G
Scum: 1R/0D/1G

Current.

I kinda like Hu Tao's questions here

I don't really like Thomith saying his Testa vote was purposely weak after he got some pressure for it. To me it felt like his frustration was real and he was genuinely worried about someone not paying attention to the VC and hammering me, which I think makes sense from a competitive standpoint. But the conversation with Hu makes me think he's trying to play it off as it all being fake for the sake of reactions

VOTE: Thomith

2) I knew it was a very weak reason to vote,

and knew it would bring attention to me

, so I could gauge the reactions it brought to get the game moving.

I'm just having a hard time believing this is true

Scum (O885)

Wait, the black wagon had 2 votes on it at the time?

OH Clems voted for black, I somehow missed that

What difference does it make? Are you implying you wouldn't have voted for me had you known this?

Also, black, what even is this OMGUS lol.

meh. I think your entrance to the game is the scummiest out of everyone so far. If voting for you after you voted for me is OMGUS then so be it

Why are you so defensive? Surely you don't mind getting wagoned early D1, do you?

i don't feel like i was being defensive at all tbh. Ironically I do mind getting wagoned but that's always been a thing with me

Town (O891)

Dann that reminds me, I wanted to ask you something. I might as well ask it here even though it's not related to the game. How much did you compare my play between Mini Normal 2313 and Open 885 while they were ongoing? Did playing with me in those games simultaneously have any effect on your read on me in either game?

That is a bold claim. Then again, it's page 2, we don't really have non-bold ones.

Yeah I'm not really putting too much stock in my own read but I feel like being open with my thoughts here

ISO 13-14 -

Finally we are done with dissecting the scum. This is more than anything really just cleanup, considering I've already dissected via comparison 3 times on this scum. ISO 13 and 14 are both questions from her. First is a discussion question by asking gamma's thoughts on something already going on, the next is definitely a game pushing (or trying to be) type of question, asking the more silent player Nae at the time to put thoughts in about the game. so finally, actual questions to add to the tally. And in her scum game she's defensive. in her town game, she's talking about a former game and the reads of that game, and thus NAI. Tally update!
Current: 0R/1D/1G
Town: 0R/3D/0G
Scum: 1R/0D/1G
Also, so you don't have to find the games yourself, quotes of the games as well.
Current

I think Hu Tao picked up on the same things I did, just expressed them in a way that wasn’t perfect

What do you think of Thomith's responses afterward?

Bloop

Any thoughts on the game so far?

Scum (O885)

Wait, the black wagon had 2 votes on it at the time?

OH Clems voted for black, I somehow missed that

What difference does it make? Are you implying you wouldn't have voted for me had you known this?

No difference, I simply had missed it and was surprised when you said I put you to E-2.

fair enough

But I do have a question for you. In a 9p game, what do you think constitutes as a wagon?

I'm not sure what you are getting at with this question? I'd say 3 out of 8 possible votes qualifies as a wagon

Town (O891)

i try not to let bleed between simultaneous games influence me too much but obviously it does still happen

I should probably work on this XD

My scum read of you in 885 was heavily influenced by me knowing you were town in 2313. I couldn't get over the differences in your playstyle even though you had a decent explanation for it

Wait I think I mixed up those games. Reverse that

so, what the fuck is my conclusion?
VOTE: Black
Black is playing in the same exact style as her scum games. Due to her playstyle in them, It's also likely Thom is town, since her nature of coming in the defense of a town that she also showed off here that only happens in a scum game.
Ninja'd - Actually, yes it is. I said that one of you flipping would effect the other, and black flipping would be more effecting you than vice versa. but, as you can see by this post yeah... that thought changed.

[Arko]

should probably add some more conclusion reasons:
she answers more questions- and different questions as town.
she is way less ON/OFF and confident in her reads, usually voting later.
she commonly defends a townie early on.
If you want more examples for this type of thing, ask and you shall receive tomorrow or in a few hours. I'm not doing it now, fuck no.
I'll make a readslist after I seem some responses, I've got updates to make.

[Arko]

small correction, she asks not answers. sorry about that mistake.

[Arko]

Also thom, It's pretty obvious I've said the same thing each time.

Black - Null -

Something is pinging to me here that black is scum. Considering I completed 1 game with them as scum... it feels similar to that game. but it also feels just mildy scummy. and then town at the same time. It's unironically a 50/50 whether they are town or scum, and that's not a good thing. I'm saying it now, I'm not feeling black as town. And I don't like it.

If Thom is scum, I'm honestly feeling this has a higher chance of being scum if not.

Thom - Null -

I'm not gonna list what has been said already, it's pretty obvious I agree just by the position. However, the thing I DO want to add is their interactions with black generally read to me like crazy as either scum trying to follow a townie, or a scum acting pair-pair with their partner then realizing: I should probably distance.

Yeah, if black's scum the chance of thom being scum is definitely higher. More than what black would be if thom flipped scum though- the first scenario mentioned should be a good explanation.

I directly state the following in this post: That the possibility of Black/Thom being a pair is real (At least THEN. That isn't the case now.) via saying on both that if one is scum the other has a higher chance of being scum. And I directly prioritize you two via saying: More than what black would be if thom flipped scum though.

On the response to your questions on it, I directly mentioned both TvS and SvS is possible and double down on the fact that black flipping scum had less of an effect on you than vice versa.

[Arko]

Oh shit, I did just notice a typo. Yeah, I fucked that in the end of that post, it is the other way around.

But yes, besides that ONE typo I've been saying the same thing.

[Arko]

Anyways fuck it I've got a reads list to post.

Hu Tao - Town -

Same reasons. I want klick to say why they scumread this.

Thomith - Town -

Indirect read on Thom, mentioned directly in the post about black. Go there if you wanna learn why thom is likely town.

Testa - Possible Town -

Still like testa as much as the previous read post, but since they posted more, I have more confidence in it. Honestly can see putting it up to town later.

Kittie - Possible Town -

Generally no reason to suspect currently. Last post was good but not like, spectacular.

Naerys - Neutral -

I like naerys, definitely closer to town than scum. Problem is I don't have too much confidence and they haven't been really too active. still need a bit more time to decide, but what little there is I'm liking fine enough.

Gamma - Neutral -

I don't mind gamma, but hasn't really been pinging either town or scum sensors. felt like they went into the background, honestly. It's not that you haven't posted much, you've just faded in compared to the other people I've been seeing, talking more about... etc.

Klick - Neutral -

Generally needs to elaborate more. slightly disliked their predecessor, and I don't know what the actual fuck is going through klick right now. Please, please god elaborate with your thoughts

Black - SCUM -

No further elaboration. Full, entire post for this. Go read that.

scum is Black + one of Gamma, Klick, Or Naerys I presume. Other combinations possible, but less likely to me. If anything, I should try to look at black's patterns a bit- might confirm hu tao a bit more, because I think she might of pulled the same thing she did in the recent scum round and possibly even the newbie with someone else.

[Arko]

Hmm you do have a point that it can be faked- but I'm definitely not looking there currently. It definitely is possible, and no you aren't insane. I'll probably look at it more like, Day 2 but I'm very, very set on getting black, the fuck out of here. But yes, I can see what you mean.

[Arko]

I'm going to bed.

I kinda did the same thing the first like 1.5 days so I don't find it too bad but yeah they aren't really too active and would need to be a bit now. so fully neutral on that debate. if they don't add much tomorrow yeah the possi town ranking could go down. but I do have a small gut feeling in her being town.

[Arko]

3 things
1: Me going 50/50 to full scum: I actually had been analyzing this for the first time myself, so soon as I noticed it besides the general gutread and familiarity to the one game she was scum and I was town, it went from yeah null to HELL NO, NOT TOWN.

2: Black going from Hu Tao good to Hu Tao bad is definitely pinging off the ON/OFF behaviour sensor to me- one of the thing she does as scum. But Hu Tao didn't do necessarily great to me in the last few posts either. I'll look there later.

3: The thing about E-1: Yeah you are kinda right. I get why people are hesitant but considering the fact at one point we had 2/3 of the entire player list not liking black to just 1/3 voting them... yeah I get the point. still, likely just town hesitancy.

[Arko]

I'm feeling like shit, so I don't think I'll be catching up with the last set of posts for a while. But when I do, I'm gonna try cook something up.

Yes, this is 1 sentence long and kinda delay-post like but I'm not up to it currently.