Open 876 - Fire and Ice - Postgame

[Black]

VOTE: mala

Oh my god you SUCK!

I really, really like this setup, this playerlist

_{and this mod}

:D

[Black]

My favourite part of this setup is that I can just claim Doctor and the scumteams don't know whether to kill me or not

Damn, facts

Let's not do that though kthxbai

[Black]

I am ICE MAFIA!

lmfaooo

[Black]

Rather on-board for this but don't feel like taking this into genuine wagon territory quite right now.

Why not?

[Black]

Out of RVS on page 3. I love it

I don't have an issue with Dragon's 45 nor do I have an issue with the wagon that formed off of it

My only issue atm is HPE's 54 where he says he's on board to vote Dragon but doesn't want to turn it into a wagon?

[Black]

_{whoops, it* ...sorry HPE}

[Black]

Allow me to elaborate: Aureal made a non-point, IceDragon voted because of it. That's wacky, but this one doesn't particularly want to push that as "woah!! scum!!" YET, but Ice is def on my scumlist for it.

I see where you are coming from. I think applying pressure can be valuable even if you don't necessarily want to lim them yet. I guess all I'm saying is don't be afraid to use your vote on someone you think is scummy. Sometimes the reactions can either solidify or pick apart your initial read

[Black]

Out of RVS on page 3. I love it

I don't have an issue with Dragon's 45 nor do I have an issue with the wagon that formed off of it

My only issue atm is HPE's 54 where he says he's on board to vote Dragon but doesn't want to turn it into a wagon?

Oh no.. You finally flipped scum didn't you

VOTE: Black

Oh no.. You finally flipped scum didn't you

Finally?

-A

Yeah what. I'm always scum

[Black]

Not a VC, I just want this pagetop.

rude

[Black]

I kind of feel Bianco would and should know that.

What gives you this impression? Have they played together?

[Black]

But in multiball like this, and if you are scum there is always a chance that the lim-bait is scum. Personally I wouldn't overthink things on D1 and just try to find the easiest path and just hope for the best.

I think I agree with this. Everyone is trying to lim scum D1, even scum

[Black]

I'm not seeing a gimmick? I mean beyond using his Ice account for the Ice Mafia game but is that even really a gimmick?

[Black]

I don't really think python "main hunting" is AI though

[Black]

Great Aureal look what you did

[Black]

This one thinks it trusts Python, and of course it's got a scumread on Ice for his vote on Mala, but otherwise it's... rather lacking in reads honestly. Need to give this game a look over sometime and try to come up with SOMETHING.

Why does it seem like you're afraid to vote?

[Black]

Don't get me wrong...I'm not in a hurry to lim either. I just don't see the benefit of not using your vote in a situation where you SR someone and have the opportunity to use it as pressure

[Black]

Oh lord I asked for that, didn't I?

I just wanted people to have hope that scum would shoot each other.

Whatever. Now it's your responsibility to translate the mech for us >:(

[Black]

But...but...I like her

[Black]

Can't we just stick her on Nameless-translator duty instead?

[Black]

Rule 1: Kokichi is never right about me

Rule 2: I am unbuddyable _{unless you send cat pics}

[Black]

But...but...I like her

I like Aureal, she is good people, some say the best.

But who doesn't love a good wagon?

Or, and here me out, how about a Bianco wagon?

Either/or to drown out the mech speak.

Why not? My vote is still on mala from RVS (where is the sweet kitty anyway?)

VOTE: Bianco

[Black]

Is this one missing something?

Yeah...this wagon as it rides on by you

Wanna jump on?

[Black]

No. Tell me, both of you, why it and others should.

Talking points. Gauging how people respond to pressure. Y'know all that good stuff

I didn't think you would want to join us. You seem to holster your vote like it's going to blow someone's face off if you use it

[Black]

No. Tell me, both of you, why it and others should.

Talking points. Gauging how people respond to pressure. Y'know all that good stuff

I didn't think you would want to join us. You seem to holster your vote like it's going to blow someone's face off if you use it

Votes? Wagons? VCA? You want it, it's yours my friend!
VOTE: Black

Honestly... I'll take it

[Black]

I think this one is town.

Yeah...I'm starting to think HPE just doesn't use its vote a lot. I only played one other game with it and it didn't make its first real vote until like post 400

[Black]

Yep

[Black]

Are the results skewed by me practically begging HPE to vote here?

[Black]

What the hell Alianna. You were so ready for that page top it's unreal

[Black]

tl;dr - scum are not going to want to kill scum today, but will act like they're actively trying to find scum. any other day? fuck if i know. its probably advantageous to scumhunt for all sides starting tmrw.

Ehhhh. Idk. I can understand the point where you said both scum teams have interest in keeping the other alive (for now) because that means more nights with multiple kills, but I still think I disagree here

Neither mafia team wins unless the other is completely eliminated. So both mafia teams should be just as eager to kill opposing scum as they are killing a townie. Yeah, having both mafia teams alive equals two kills, but those kills aren't guaranteed to hit green even if it's statistically likely. The Mafia teams could easily shoot each other overnight

I don't think scum finds enemy scum D1 and decides to vote elsewhere

[Black]

Oh cool Nameless is back with some math. Time for me to dip again

[Black]

Sike. More to read and I'm bored at work

I'm not a fan of Drew twisting HPE's words around. Getting scummy vibes from Drew here

[Black]

VOTE: Doctor Drew

Yeah I want to wagon this

VOTE: Doctor Drew

[Black]

Oh cool Nameless is back with some math. Time for me to dip again

smh I left a tl;dr this time

-Nameless

Even your tl;dr is confusing XD

Your posts have pretty colors though. I like that

[Black]

Bulge what're your thoughts on Drew

-A

Isn't this question supposed to come before the teaming accusation?

[Black]

Ooooo bulge you're in trouble now

[Black]

But like Bulge commenting about everything

but

208 is pretty telling

-A

I definitely see where you're coming from. Instead of interacting with Drew there he just kinda piled on HPE with him

[Black]

I thought you were bragging in one game that you never flipped scum before? Unless you have an alt i'm not aware of I guess. Either way you're scum here.

I think you might be confusing me with someone else? We only played Death Note together. I've finished 5 games on site and 3 of them were wolf games lol

[Black]

I thought you were bragging in one game that you never flipped scum before? Unless you have an alt i'm not aware of I guess. Either way you're scum here.

Black's been scum in Newbie 2111, Newbie 2113, Newbie 2116. It's basically a meme at this point that Black can't roll town in Newbie games

I'm the self-proclaimed Newbie Scum Queen

[Black]

In my experience Black is obvtown even when she's scum

This is kinda the vibe I get based on people's reads of me on this site so far

So what does it mean when I'm not obvtown?

[Black]

Maybe I was. Either way, I think you're scum here

Why? Where does your gut feeling come from?

[Black]

Vote black today. If they don't flip scum, you can vote me tomorrow. that's how strong my gut feeling is

You're willing to do this gambit on a gut read? I can't tell if you're joking or not

[Black]

Only town. And it was a game kinda like this? Where scum had to scumhunt basically.

What does that have to do with anything? I was town that game so obviously I wasn't scum scumhunting

[Black]

Actually wait I just realized I only have experience with scum!Black and she's giving off her usual vibes.

VOTE: Black

-A

Didn't you just say those vibes were NAI?

[Black]

That's not a town reaction to that post btw

Yes it is lol. Now you're just having confirmation bias. I think risking your own life to kill someone D1 based on a gut read is idiotic

[Black]

slip? wouldn't it be the same as this game if you were town in both? since you'd be scumhunting

No slip? I'm asking you why it matters that DN involved scum hunting scum?

[Black]

Didn't you just say those vibes were NAI?

That was before I realized I've only played with scum!Black, I'm basically trusting Kokichi that the vibes from DN are different until I actually have time to read the game

-A

That's an awful approach, but ok

If I had to even guess what Kokichi is referring to about my vibes being different, I guess I posted more jokes in this game? I barely knew anyone in DN so I didn't feel as comfortable and loose

[Black]

Like your vibes are the same as all the other games I've played with you and I've never played with town!Black

You played one completed game with me...

[Black]

and?

I mean you said my vibes are the same in "all the other games" you've played with me. It was literally just one. And if you are seriously using meta on one game as the basis for your vote then I definitely SR that

What specifically is bad about the approach?

Trusting someone without making an educated decision yourself. Also I think your flip flop here from defending me to pushing me with Kokichi is sus

[Black]

Convenient of you to ignore my first point. Using meta as the foundation of your vote is not town behavior

[Black]

I don't really think python "main hunting" is AI though

Convenient of you to ignore my first point. Using meta as the foundation of your vote is not town behavior

Python's mainhunting was explicitly used to provide meta to base their Dragon vote on. If using meta as the foundation of a vote is not town behaviour, then you should think it's AI, isn't it?

VOTE: Black

Yeah that's fair. I guess in my mind there's a difference in using it for the first push of the game on page 3 and then using it slightly more seriously here later in the game

[Black]

You all are more than welcome to lim me based on meta ig?

You can read DN yourselves and probably see the only difference here is I'm playing more loose, and I already explained that's because of the playerlist

[Black]

Okay first big red flag on Black (or black flag, it guesses) is that none of her DN solving effort really seems to be present. Maybe that's just a consequence of how DN's setup was, but... This setup is kinda similar in it's extra emphasis on day-time analysis to find scum since there's no investigatives, which even

DN

had one!

Can you elaborate on this? My solving effort consists of me asking questions. How is this game any different?

[Black]

@Python - yeah I was clearly more invested in DN. That was only pg 7 but I feel like more stuff happened in those 7 pages than the 14 pages we have here. Lots more mech discussion and honestly just discussion in general. I found it much easier to read people that game

[Black]

It doesn't really feel like I've found my footing in this game and I seriously can't believe there's a meta wagon on me rn

[Black]

I'm most sus of Python over this. I can kinda see this angle from Kokichi and HPE, I'm not really sure about Bianco as a player, but I don't see this push coming from town!python at all

VOTE: python

[Black]

Intresting, you don't think we genuinely think you're scum?

You might, but I doubt it. If you do then you're scum that thinks I'm on the other scum team. I don't think you make this push if you're town

[Black]

"You might be genuine but you probably aren't but if you are you're other groupscum"? Can you explain further?

What I'm saying is you might think I'm scum. That part can be genuine. But that doesn't mean you are town like it would in a normal setup

I looked at a past game because I wanted to see if you used meta to base a vote. You didn't, but I did find a post where you said you like to scumhunt by pushing people to see how they react

So this could be in your townrange I suppose

[Black]

It doesn't really feel like I've found my footing in this game and I seriously can't believe there's a meta wagon on me rn

Upset on the reasons you are caught, or just upset being caught?

Slightly annoyed because this is the first time I've ever seen someone get pushed on meta alone, and it's me, and I'm town. So yeah that's annoying

[Black]

@Python I actually looked at a different game but yeah, that's a good point

[Black]

i just skimmed this game before work and it makes negative sense

ill read everything more attentively later but i doubt itll make any more sense

Did you ever get a chance to read last night?

[Black]

The more I think about the meta wagon the more I'm not liking it from Kokichi. It seems like a convenient way to turn his RVS vote on me into something serious. It's also something I can't really defend myself against because meta arguments are pretty subjective

It would make sense for Kokichi to come into our second game together wanting me dead. I was able to see through his little town disguise in Death Note at the end, and it led to us winning the game in a situation where town was destined to lose. I feel like that could have caused him to view me as a threat here

Likelihood of scum on my wagon probably goes something like Kokichi > python > Bianco? > HPE

[Black]

Also 348 tells me you still haven't figured out how to scumhunt d1 in this setup. Go take a bit to figure out what behaviors are scum gonna exhibit that town aren't and vice versa, it'll help your d1 reads.

-A

Don't tell me to "go take a bit" lol wtf? Just tell me what behaviors I should be looking for...

[Black]

Ok

[Black]

How'd the Kokichi wagon form that game?

It wasn't a Kokichi wagon. That game was weird because town had to eliminate one particular wolf to win. StD was that wolf and Kokichi was his buddy. I was able to link Kokichi and StD together which eventually confirmed StD as the big bad

[Black]

While this IS technically true... It benefits town either way to nail scum, scum!Python or not.

I agree here

[Black]

I voted for him after he tried to claim follower (what Kokichi was)

Basically I made a case why StD made sense as Kira (the big bad) and he immediately tried to claim follower. I wasn't buying it, but it was hard convincing everyone else until I figured out that Kokichi was the actual follower. Then we voted StD and GG

Why are you asking?

[Black]

It's not a great theory and almost impossible to prove, but it's a thought I had when thinking about who scum might be on my wagon and why they would want me limmed over meta

[Black]

It definitely makes sense though regardless if it's a good theory or not. I have gone into games as a wolf with this exact mindset. I try to get rid of people that might recognize my scum game

[Black]

Because it earns him town points for even suggesting it. You're my prime example

[Black]

Yeah but then it loses them even more town points if you flip town. Unless you just slipped?

Do you actually think I'm getting flipped off of a meta case today? Because I don't, and I guarantee you Kokichi doesn't either. He ends D1 with a net gain in town points, and doesn't lose any until I flip town

[Black]

In fact I'll go so far as to say the only reason to suggest a gambit like that D1 on a gut read is to gain town points. And who would want to gain town points more than anyone? Scum

[Black]

VOTE: Kokichi

[Black]

This is a flat out lie. You townread me and if it wasnt for StD claiming scum you wouldn't have scumread me

No it's not? Where did I say I would've SRed you if StD didn't fake claim?

Also why do you seem so upset all the sudden?

[Black]

Bruh, 181 was a pure joke post...

[Black]

Why would I be upset, you're the leading wagon, one scum almost gone

Because you know I'm right about you

Town doesn't make a gambit with their life halfway through D1 on a pure gut meta read

[Black]

You changed you're reaction after I said it wasn't a town reaction. Easy scum move.

Where did I change my reaction?

[Black]

Sorry you rolled scum when I was town actually

I'm sorry you're so wrong. And confidently wrong too, lol

[Black]

This doesn't parse for this one. How does he gain town points if you just... flip town? ESPECIALLY after all this?

I was saying I'm not going to be flipped today. Python's point was that it doesn't make sense for town!Kokichi to propose this because he loses town points if I flip town. My argument is that we won't find out if I'm town or not until later, so Kokichi will have earned town points from just proposing the 1v1 gambit until I flip

[Black]

181 was absolutely a joke. When I wrote it I couldn't even remember a time Kokichi even had an opinion on me

[Black]

I guess that's plausible for Death Note, yeah. I couldn't remember his opinion on you there without going back to read some of his ISO. He did eventually express a townread, though he barely talked about it.

That's the only time I've interacted with Kokichi

Like I'm cool with you guys calling me a liar but I promise you 181 was purely a joke post

[Black]

Kokichi is tunneling on a gut read and using confirmation bias to make stuff seem scummy that isn't

I don't like it at all

[Black]

I thought you were bragging in one game that you never flipped scum before? Unless you have an alt i'm not aware of I guess. Either way you're scum here.

Black's been scum in Newbie 2111, Newbie 2113, Newbie 2116. It's basically a meme at this point that Black can't roll town in Newbie games

I'm the self-proclaimed Newbie Scum Queen

well then you clearly need to up your scumgame if you wanna hang in the open queue with a red role pm, because this isn't gonna cut it

your entire iso is fucking air. there's not a single question that leads to anything, a single bit of meaningful analysis, or any pressure at all coming from your slot.
VOTE: black
E-2

I'm the Scum Queen. I never said my town game was any good. It's pretty trash actually

[Black]

So maybe lower your expectations?

[Black]

@osuka

421 - I think meta probably works best as a supporting argument, and not something I would use as the only reason to lockscum someone. Especially in this situation where it's a read based off of one game. There are so many factors not related to alignment that could make someone play differently between two games

I still don't even understand the meta argument to begin with and Kokichi has just been posting "you're scum" over and over again so it makes sense for me to be slightly frustrated over it

so now you're targeting someone else in the wagon because the python push didn't stick?

I was voting python for one hour, I would argue I didn't even give it time to stick. I changed my mind about who seemed the scummiest in the push and voted accordingly

why would you restrict yourself to scumhunting people who are in your wagon AND wanting to exec you over meta?

I'm not. That was just the thing that was happening at the time and I gained some SRs from it

[Black]

i _almost want_ to find a reason to townread black on the basis of town who legitimately got tilted and fucking gave up

I didn't get tilted or give up, and tbh I don't really care if you tr me

[Black]

Bulge is very likely scum, I'm gonna move back.

I'm not getting these vibes...can you elaborate?

A quick look at his ISO and he seems kinda townie to me. He's definitely putting in some effort to solve

[Black]

Python getting a little defensive over the mech talk kinda stinks

Cause like it's pretty blatantly obvious you're still scumhunting like it's regular mafia without ever reconsidering why the tells you're using worked there in the first place.

I wish you would stop assuming that everyone is some mechanical wizard that can hop into any format and just know the optimal play. You keep alluding to these secret strategies of multiball and jumping on people for not knowing them. It's borderline condescending

[Black]

I think Ice's catchup is ok so far, but:

So I am just gonna ISO the 3-4 players that stuck out the most for me and see whichever of them I wanna vote now.

I'm curious if you'll be able to get around to the other 2-3 players?

[Black]

Do not get distracted, Black is scum. don't let her get away with it

Yeah, I think we get it

Spoiler: I wonder if Kokichi thinks I'm scum?

Out of RVS on page 3. I love it

I don't have an issue with Dragon's 45 nor do I have an issue with the wagon that formed off of it

My only issue atm is HPE's 54 where he says he's on board to vote Dragon but doesn't want to turn it into a wagon?

Oh no.. You finally flipped scum didn't you

VOTE: Black

Out of RVS on page 3. I love it

I don't have an issue with Dragon's 45 nor do I have an issue with the wagon that formed off of it

My only issue atm is HPE's 54 where he says he's on board to vote Dragon but doesn't want to turn it into a wagon?

Oh no.. You finally flipped scum didn't you

VOTE: Black

Oh no.. You finally flipped scum didn't you

Finally?

-A

Yeah what. I'm always scum

I thought you were bragging in one game that you never flipped scum before? Unless you have an alt i'm not aware of I guess. Either way you're scum here.

But...but...I like her

Oh no, is this the new buddying me strategy?

Can't we just stick her on Nameless-translator duty instead?

... I guess not.

Black, ol' buddybuddybuddynosubliminalmessageherebuddybuddy, how could you suggest such a thing? Is Kokichi right about you?

I'm always right. How about you vote them

Rule 1: Kokichi is never right about me

Rule 2: I am unbuddyable _{unless you send cat pics}

This is fake meta. ACTUALLY scum.

PLEASE VOTE THIS NOW

I thought you were bragging in one game that you never flipped scum before? Unless you have an alt i'm not aware of I guess. Either way you're scum here.

I think you might be confusing me with someone else? We only played Death Note together. I've finished 5 games on site and 3 of them were wolf games lol

Maybe I was. Either way, I think you're scum here

Cause the time she was town in the game I played she was OBVIOUS town. And she's not that here. It's a gut feeling. And my gut feelings are right 50% of the time

Vote black today. If they don't flip scum, you can vote me tomorrow. that's how strong my gut feeling is

That's not a town reaction to that post btw

Vote black, guaranteed scum here.

This is a flat out lie. You townread me and if it wasnt for StD claiming scum you wouldn't have scumread me

No it's not? Where did I say I would've SRed you if StD didn't fake claim?

Also why do you seem so upset all the sudden?

Why would I be upset, you're the leading wagon, one scum almost gone

Why would I be upset, you're the leading wagon, one scum almost gone

Because you know I'm right about you

Town doesn't make a gambit with their life halfway through D1 on a pure gut meta read

You changed you're reaction after I said it wasn't a town reaction. Easy scum move.

Sorry you rolled scum when I was town actually

Do not get distracted, Black is scum. don't let her get away with it

[Black]

@Python - ok...so how is that different than normal mafia? Everyone is looking for scum D1 and there's no real way to tell the motives yet. The people on my wagon could be townies pushing possible scum, scum pushing a possible townie, or scum pushing possible opposing scum. How do you tell the difference?

[Black]

If you out doc, you can kill doc? or is there some mechanic i'm not aware of

If both mafia teams hit the Doc, there's no kill

[Black]

That's so funny. I wish I was scum this game, I'm sad. I would have had a ball

That's a weird reaction to learning about the mechanic

"I wish I was scum so I could potentially waste a NK on the Doc"

[Black]

If I was scum, I wouldn't be pushing you Black. You should know this since you're scum.

What?

[Black]

Black, don't you think Mala is scum here?

No, and I don't think you do either tbh

[Black]

This one still doesn't like Drew and his bianco wagon but it's gripes now are mostly about how he went about starting it and discussing it because he didn't really bring up WHY he did until 432, a good long while after actually starting the wagon which seems counter-intuitive when starting a wagon. Though it also doesn't think it necessarily agrees with his reasoning for it either, but, eh..

I don't think it's necessarily scummy to start a wagon and withhold the reasoning. It can be but a lot of times people will do this to interpret the reaction. Showing all your cards (ie: your reason for doing it) can impact the reaction so I can see town reasons for withholding the information

Not sure if that's the case with Drew here but the action itself isn't that bad imo

[Black]

I actually think Drew is scummy for reasons that don't involve the Bianco wagon. He's had a few posts where he is just instigating the situation and I feel like this is the type of lazy scumhunting a wolf would throw out

Also, scum is more likely to acquiesce compared to town.

You mean like how this one acquiesced in the

opposite direction

whilst Black was asking it to vote with her and you on bianco?

Did you just admit you are scum?

It doesn't really feel like I've found my footing in this game and I seriously can't believe there's a meta wagon on me rn

Upset on the reasons you are caught, or just upset being caught?

i _almost want_ to find a reason to townread black on the basis of town who legitimately got tilted and fucking gave up

I didn't get tilted or give up, and tbh I don't really care if you tr me

You do seem to care since you have responded trying to defend yourself.

Also, I have caught scum purely based off meta I have had with that person. Again, seems like you are upset that you are caught for reasons that you don't like.

[Black]

Pre Edit: Open wolfing is my play style lol

Can anyone that has played with Drew confirm this?

[Black]

Please tell me we aren’t thinking about having the doc outD1?

We're not

[Black]

can you two be really specific on the viberead you had on Black?

Good luck getting anything out of Kokichi

[Black]

Tbh I'm not really vibing with this game but I'm gonna try to put some effort in before I disappear for the weekend

[Black]

I SR python and Drew btw so I'm cool with either wagon

[Black]

lets get some more votes on python, i like my walls without head-shaped holes in them

This just makes me want to vote for Drew XD

[Black]

I will literally self-hammer d2 if it's not Bulge/Drew

-A

I don't believe you, but I'll still join your cause

VOTE: Drew

[Black]

Shrugging your shoulders and going "welp nothing I can do about it" instead of actively fighting against consensus to keep your tr's alive is not townie behaviour

-A

I mean in his defense you would just accuse him of defending his wolf mate. And I'm also not sure how valid this point is. If I barely have a TR on someone I'm not gonna fight tooth and nail to make sure they don't get limmed

[Black]

I'm not really a fan of python backing Drew into a corner here

Might reconsider my vote

[Black]

Like if there's no scum lim today we've pretty much already lost, accepting a lim on someone that you aren't scumreading is basically already gg

-A

BS. If that is the case then this setup fucking sucks

[Black]

Like if there's no scum lim today we've pretty much already lost, accepting a lim on someone that you aren't scumreading is basically already gg

-A

BS. If that is the case then this setup fucking sucks

It's already balanced around a 33/33/33 winrate, we need to be really accurate to win

-A

Wouldn't that make gambits even riskier in this setup? I mean just assume for a second that Kokichi/me are town, or you/Drew. You're really ok with these gambits being suggested? That doesn't seem like the mindset of someone who thinks we need to be really accurate to win

[Black]

Wouldn't that make gambits even riskier in this setup? I mean just assume for a second that Kokichi/me are town, or you/Drew. You're really ok with these gambits being suggested? That doesn't seem like the mindset of someone who thinks we need to be really accurate to win

No? If we need a kill on scum or we just lose then gambiting doesn't matter since we'd be losing anyways

-A

We can still win if we lim town D1 though. So TvT throwing a gambit out digs the hole even deeper right?

[Black]

In fact I don't think your perception of this setup and your reactions to the gambits match up. You claim town has to be very careful to win but in the same breath you are proposing we lim two townies D1/D2 if you are wrong about Drew

[Black]

That's what the nightkill is for isn't it? Why go for a "Flip Black and then flip me if Black flips town" gambit as scum here?

-A

Going back to this with python's recent posts in mind, I'm having a really hard time believing that they can't see the benefit of scum proposing a gambit here. I'll even go as far as to say they are deliberately acting obtuse about it

If what python thinks is true that town basically loses if we lim town here, it would make

complete

sense for scum to propose a gambit. That's one townie down and there isn't even a guarantee the scum gets limmed D2. It's so easy to get out of a gambit

I think this contradiction in python's logic suggests they are a wolf

VOTE: python

[Black]

E-2 I think

[Black]

Since you all seem scared to vote Black today, if I die make sure Black is the vote the next day

You're exhausting

[Black]

Yeah the mech isn't even some huge revelation. It's just circular and repetitive. I almost feel like python wants to drown the thread out and unmotivate people

[Black]

Actually I think this is coming from a mech misunderstanding: Just because groupscum can do something that is -EV for town doesn't mean that it's +EV for that groupscum. Your argument that we're forcing a 1f1 with a town does get that it'd be +scum winrate in that scenario but it misses the point that it'd be -groupscum winrate (e.g. If we were Ice Mafia then it'd cause Town and Ice Mafia win rate to go down while Fire Mafia win rate goes up)

That's assuming the 1v1 actually results in both players getting limmed. Like I said it's too easy to get out of a gambit, so proposing the gambit on D1 should be a viable scum tactic to you

And I think it's something you as scum would propose here. We now know you think the town essentially loses if we lim green D1, so it makes perfect sense for you to propose a gambit based off of weak associatives to try and push a mislim here

And you'll just come up with some mech BS or find a way to wiggle your way out of your end of the gambit D2

[Black]

Our mechposts have been the basics of the basics and people are still getting it wrong, there's literally no point for me into deeper mech when the only person actually bothering to read and understand it is Bianco and it's frustrating as hell

-Nameless

Not everyone likes math or is even good at it. Same with critical thinking

[Black]

Please look at the wagon on us and tell us how we live past d2

You're smart. I'm not putting it past you to figure it out

[Black]

Besides, if you think the town essentially loses with a D1 mislim, how does you getting limmed D2 change those odds? Would your team still be favored to win?

[Black]

Actually I think this is coming from a mech misunderstanding: Just because groupscum can do something that is -EV for town doesn't mean that it's +EV for that groupscum. Your argument that we're forcing a 1f1 with a town does get that it'd be +scum winrate in that scenario but it misses the point that it'd be -groupscum winrate (e.g. If we were Ice Mafia then it'd cause Town and Ice Mafia win rate to go down while Fire Mafia win rate goes up)

That's assuming the 1v1 actually results in both players getting limmed. Like I said it's too easy to get out of a gambit, so proposing the gambit on D1 should be a viable scum tactic to you

And I think it's something you as scum would propose here. We now know you think the town essentially loses if we lim green D1, so it makes perfect sense for you to propose a gambit based off of weak associatives to try and push a mislim here

And you'll just come up with some mech BS or find a way to wiggle your way out of your end of the gambit D2

This last line seems really uncharitable and disproportionate

VOTE: Black

Is this just how you play Mafia now?

[Black]

We're quite literally the designated miselim d2

Not quite. Two people will potentially die N1 and they could easily come from that pool. And even if they all survive you're assuming reads and opinions never change, and also that you don't have the ability to change them, which I disagree with on both counts

[Black]

Besides, if you think the town essentially loses with a D1 mislim, how does you getting limmed D2 change those odds? Would your team still be favored to win?

Your entire argument here is based on the idea that it's somehow possible for us to not get limmed d2, please get out of your tunnel for a minute and really look at the gamestate

-A

It's extremely possible that you survive D2

I still would like an answer for this if you could. If Drew is town and gets limmed D1, then we lim scum!you D2, would your team still be favored to win? This time I'm asking for mech, so bring it

[Black]

So saying town essentially loses day 1 if they mislim is just demonstrably false

[Black]

So saying town essentially loses day 1 if they mislim is just demonstrably false

We do because I'm town and the designated d2 mislim

-A

But if we lim you D1 and lim scum D2 then town still has a 30% chance to win (assuming Bianco 's math checks out)

How does 30% WR = a loss?

[Black]

That would require the d2 lim to not be me

What? Obviously it wouldn't be you if you're the D1 lim

[Black]

What I'm saying is...if you're town and we mislim you D1, and then lim let's say Drew D2 and he's scum...that still leaves town with a 30% chance of winning. So why did you say earlier that town essentially loses with a D1 mislim?

[Black]

Can you honestly say that Drew or Bulge get wagoned instead of Kokichi going for a Black wagon or some other bullshit happening?

100%. There's way more traction for a Bulge/Drew wagon. I'm pretty sure I'm the only one that thought Kokichi was scummy for his push/the way he's playing. And don't you TR Kokichi for his push? Why are you assuming people will suddenly think his Black wagon is scummy and vote for him over Drew/Bulge who already have multiple votes against them?

[Black]

Like bringing up the Kokichi wagon as if everyone thinks it's some scummy thing is throwing me off here

[Black]

Oh nvm, I see #719

[Black]

This conversation has me dizzy

[Black]

Kokichi's willing to push you, HPE and Osuka are on the fence. A little powerwolfing and the vote goes through

-A

If I get limmed off of some bullshit meta wagon that Kokichi refuses to even elaborate on, imma be pissed. Like how is yelling "black is scum!" over and over again just getting a pass from literally everyone?

[Black]

Why do you even TR Kokichi so much python?

[Black]

Why do you even TR Kokichi so much python?

They're not as blatantly manipulative as they were in DN mafia

-A

Elaborate

[Black]

Like from what I've read of DN mafia I'd expect scum!Kokichi to be actively discrediting the people defending you instead of just yelling "Black scum"

-A

Weird. I seem to remember scum!Kokichi forming pushes off meta that game

Look at these 2 iso's from Gimli's last 2 games and compare to this so far. Just from Day 1s. Does no one else see the difference? Look how much he hopped around compared to how 'certain' he is with his reads here.

viewtopic.php?sid=&f=23&t=90376&user_select%5B%5D=34779

viewtopic.php?sid=&f=51&t=90328&user_select%5B%5D=34779

Seems kinda familiar...

I have no idea how you can look at a weak meta read and place him in your top town category

[Black]

His play this game hasn't been town motivated at all but you're giving him a pass for not being as manipulative about it?

[Black]

I actually think a python/Kokichi team makes a lot of sense if I'm solving for pairs

[Black]

This one doesn't think it wants a Black elim anymore, and it's not very sure about voting like, Python or Drew either at the moment. But its pretty sure that it'd like to elim furtive who really is not playing like he normally would in its opinion.

Unfortunately this type of play is well within furtive's townrange now. I'm not trying to sway you away from voting him but I don't think I'll be joining you. This behavior is NAI for him

[Black]

Which game btw?

The last few in-game days of Hollow Knight. I'm on mobile one sec and I'll grab the link

[Black]

viewtopic.php?t=90425

You can iso furtive here and see how his town play just kinda degrades into nothing towards the end

[Black]

@HPE - I'll take a look at that first link you sent because it's pretty recent, but the 2nd one was from last year so I'm not sure what his meta was like then

Also I have no clue what furtive's scum game is like

[Black]

viewtopic.php?t=90425

You can iso furtive here and see how his town play just kinda degrades into nothing towards the end

That's towards the end. We're still on Day 1 here.

Yeah, true. Furtive seems like the kind of player that doesn't participate much unless he's interested. He could be scum here for sure but I'm not sure I'm willing to toss out the possibility of him being disinterested

Either way I think your pressure is good

[Black]

@HPE - I'll take a look at that first link you sent because it's pretty recent, but the 2nd one was from last year so I'm not sure what his meta was like then

Also I have no clue what furtive's scum game is like

"Last year" is technically correct in the most pointless way when it's a game that started in December and ended in February.

I'm sorry, I didn't even look at when it ended. I opened it and saw a post from December and thought the recent furtive meta I'm talking about probably doesn't apply there

[Black]

I'm getting the vibe that furtive is kinda over mafia or something. He's been in two LyLo situations very recently (a Newbie game and HK) and lost the game for town both times. And in both post games he kinda seemed visibility upset with himself and at one point I'm pretty sure he mentioned taking a break

This doesn't mean furtive is town but knowing the recent furtive lore has made me doubt if this type of play is AI from him

[Black]

And yeah I realize this gives me fishy associatives with furtive if he is scum here but I feel like this information can be useful in determining his alignment

[Black]

I also really don’t like Python acting like its set in stone their the d2 elim, like there’s a lot that can happen between now and that point and it feels very weird just being so defeatist over it?

We've put in like 3 times the effort that the average player has and all it got us is a wagon on us and people like Osuka calling our posts shit, yeah we're pretty defeated alright

-A

Wolves put in effort too, and not all of your effort has seemed town motivated

Effort doesn't keep you in the game

[Black]

And yeah I realize this gives me fishy associatives with furtive if he is scum here but I feel like this information can be useful in determining his alignment

Scum don't know how to treat their non-buddies in multiball...lol

Black's worried I'm the other scumteam

I'm arguing that you are probably town here, furtive

[Black]

Or rather, your stinky okay is probably not related to your alignment

[Black]

Play*

[Black]

still think Black is very sus but I can move if need be.

Why? All I've seen is you say I'm sus because I said Python was going to try to get out of their gambit D2. Is there more?

[Black]

Pretty sure also that Black was defending you, furtive...

Missing the point

It's more like you're not making your point clear enough. What about me talking about you did you not like?

[Black]

Enchant you too, are you willing to get on a Bulge wagon instead of a Drew wagon?

-A

I really don't care k

You don't care because you sr both or because you just want a lim and are willing to wagon whomever?

Second

That's not a very town mindset. Does Mafia bore you or something?

[Black]

This is pretty clear? It's basically the same thing Python has against Drew, scum!you is putting a guard just in case we end up flipping furtive and is otherscum

Thanks, I wanted furtive to respond

[Black]

Didn't Lorne in DN have the same mindset? Something not being a townie mindset doesn't mean they're scum

I never said they were scum

[Black]

Wanting to end the day immediately after relaxing in 6 days before the deadline is something I'm gonna call out regardless if it's AI or not. Like I'm not even sure why Enchant signs up for Mafia games with this mindset

[Black]

Replacing*

I'm phone posting too smh

[Black]

Just wanting a lim and not really caring who it is seems so wild to me

[Black]

My competitive self could never but big props to Enchant. Seems like a much less stressful way to play

[Black]

Mafia is addiction consuming our minds and bodies

based

[Black]

Why do you even TR Kokichi so much python?

Because i caught you

You couldn't even elaborate on your gut read and now your wagon has fallen apart because of it. Better luck next time!

[Black]

Getting a lim through requires more than just repeating "X is scum!" and then ignoring everyone's attempts to get you to expand on that

You'll get better in time

[Black]

At this point Kokichi this just seems personal

[Black]

I have nothing against you. You're just scum this game

You said your gut is right 50% of the time but the way you are approaching this seems like you're 100% sure I'm scum

It's definitely personal at this point

[Black]

What exactly would I have against you? And the 50% thing was just in jest

You tell me. 90% of your posts have been directed at me or about me. You're not playing the game, you're just popping in from time to time to remind people I'm scum while ignoring everyone's attempts to get you to elaborate

[Black]

I would feel bad if you're town, but I don't think you're town.

See you in the postgame then. I'm done talking to you and I will be actively avoiding games with you in it from now on

[Black]

sigh

I'm not mad at Kokichi because he scumreads me

But whatever

[Black]

Hey Black, other than your Kokichi/Python solve who are you scumreading right now? We've got 2x2 scum to be hunting here

-A

Idk

[Black]

I don't know python

[Black]

I don't know python

Ok we know post count != effort but how do you have 165 posts and 0 townreads? Actually lets simplify it, what do you think of the flashwagon on Bulge? Are the people there that aren't me town or groupscum or other groupscum?

-A

I have people I think are town but I don't have conviction in my reads

I think Bulge is kinda town regardless of his weak associatives with scummy Drew

I think the hydra is pretty town, as well as Bianco

HPE kinda reads town to me

[Black]

Uh, even if I said yes, and that is not what I am saying yet, why try to swap Bianco's vote for mine? She made it clear she's not voting Drew here so even if everyone else went back that's still no more votes.

Good point

Python/Bianco associatives?

[Black]

If it was Bianco/Python then Nameless would be too busy spamming the PT with mech to post mech here

Idk...I think it could be a valid scum tactic to drown the thread out with mech as you two have done

I kinda think Bianco is town though so I'm not sure how confident I am here

[Black]

[Black]

Green is the scummy m&m.

Way to out yourself Black

Ngl I thought Kokichi posted this at first glance

[Black]

This one is gonna be real in that it's kinda... lost the plot a bit here? It's been reading but it doesn't think it's necessarily been understanding, just that it's probably elimming someone in the range of you (BIG maybe)/Drew/Bulge. A lot of the scumreads on your behavior have felt kinda uncharitable in a way...? Really don't know, it's 4:10am either way, but this one is pretty sure either way that its probably not getting a grasp on what's REALLY up when there's less alive people to have to think about.

Same

[Black]

VOTE: malakittens

[Black]

Do we think wolves move their votes around a lot from wagon to wagon? I feel like that would be a pretty solid scumtell in this format since wolves want both enemy wolves and town dead, and wagoning doesn't seem as bad when a wolf ends up doing it to an enemy wolf

Just a thought. Maybe I'll look into who's followed the most wagons this game later if I'm feeling motivated

[Black]

And didn't expect you to settle for anyone, python.

They are in full on survival mode

[Black]

If we wagoned the person that switched votes the most would it just be python?

[Black]

Vote Switches

python - 6
furtive - 5
HPE - 4
drew - 4
mala - 3
Aureal - 3
bianco - 3
OE - 2
Dragon - 1
osuka - 1
Bulge - 1
Kokichi - 1

Results? python posts so much. Like they are way more invested in this game than I've ever seen them before. Does that type of interest come from receiving a red PM?

Also furtive has way too many vote changes when considering the quality of his posts and the lack of solving

I think I'm down to vote python or furtive today

[Black]

It comes from being in the closest thing to mountainous mutli-ball that'll be run on this site this year

Is this your favorite game type?

[Black]

Why is a furtive lim a bad one?

[Black]

No information from the flip?

[Black]

We know that furtive never flips red this game because his defense of us would mean that the only world where scum!furtive was possible is a Python/furtive game (and that's not mechanically possible for us)

how is you/furtive not mechanically possible?

[Black]

Right

[Black]

Now i want to hammer

Same

Teach me your ways

[Black]

Yeah I saw him in your Death Note. That's all he was there for

[Black]

Or really doesn’t care for me right now in general

What? I adore you

It's just the weekend that's all

[Black]

Scum: Black

Your SR on me is a little hazy. Can you go over why I'm in your bottom category?

[Black]

Ngl

I rather be scum in a multi all setup like this. Town in this kinda sucks because you’re just trying to bide time before a flip or two to hopefully lock down on the actual scum and the teams.

I will admit that I joined the game for two reasons that was completely not related to the setup.
1) the mod
2) a couple people on the playerlist which I made have made the decision in haste

because the last couple of days the magic has been lost (which can be from a couple things or just me overthinking)

If this is directed at me then I hope you reconsider judging me for my actions this game. I don't think what Kokichi is doing is right and I think it says something that he admitted he'll be sorry if I'm town. I think I have every right to be upset about how he's playing the game but next time I just need to not put that down in the thread. So I'm sorry if that has changed your world view of me but I'm just human and I don't always make the best decisions

[Black]

Anyway I just want to apologize to the game and the mod for mad posting earlier on. I'll make sure to keep that stuff in the post game. It was a lapse in judgment and I'll be more mindful of it moving forward

[Black]

I'm kinda at a loss this game on who scum might be. I'll try to solidify my reads later today

[Black]

And didn't expect you to settle for anyone, python.

They are in full on survival mode

btw I'll tell you the same thing I told osuka, if we're in full on survival mode how do you explain our actions in 773 onwards where we specifically started a Bulge counterwagon out of thin air (Count it, 0 votes on them when I started the wagon) when we could have easily just gotten on a Black counterwagon that was already there and had more support than the Bulge wagon

-A

782 felt pretty survivalistic. You only went back to the Bulge wagon because you knew Bianco would vote there so I'm not sure why you're acting like you did it as some big scumhunting moment. And you didn't get on my cw because it was built by toothpicks and glue and you saw it inevitably falling apart, and it did

I want to say here that when I called you survivalistic, I never indicated this was a wolf behavior. Townies play survivalistic often. Your reaction and defense to it doesn't feel good

[Black]

VOTE: python

[Black]

I truthfully was not calling you scum there. Drew said he didn't think you would settle and I said (essentially) that you would if you're in survival mode

Do I think you're in survival mode because you're scum? Yeah, but I don't think it's AI to be in survival mode. Hope that clears it up

[Black]

Do you mean 1072? And no I don't think I would have in this case. I wasn't feeling the game over the weekend so a lot of my posts didn't have any explanations attached

[Black]

Ngl I glazed over 1076 when I first read it over the weekend

Either way, I'm not lying here, but I don't expect you to believe me

[Black]

I don't think town!Bianco chooses the wagon with the weakest case attached to it here

Last I checked people wanted me dead for a meta read that has still not been explained?

Can we not wagon me over something this stupid?

[Black]

I'm here today. I want people to engage with me and try to determine my alignment. Yeeting me over Kokichi's meta read is not the play

[Black]

I think the meta case is bad, I want you limmed cause of the shading and general unreasonableness that I don't normally get from you

Do you think my shading and unreasonableness is wolf indicative?

[Black]

I don't think town!Bianco chooses the wagon with the weakest case attached to it here

Last I checked people wanted me dead for a meta read that has still not been explained?

Can we not wagon me over something this stupid?

Tbh it's just that we tried the Bulge wagon and didn't work, there were multiple occasions to put mala in enchant-range yesterday and didn't happen. So idk, maybe we just try something else and it'll go through

So you're admitting you're giving up on more solid wagons just because you haven't been able to push them through? That doesn't seem truthful, especially considering we've had lots of chances to have Enchant lolhammer but the thread has been actively avoiding putting the game in that state

[Black]

Do you think my shading and unreasonableness is wolf indicative?

If I didn't I wouldnt be arguing to lim you over it

You know my scum game more than anyone here. I'm never unreasonable. (yeah wifom but it's true)

I find it odd you choose to believe that I'm a wolf here instead of a tilted townie

[Black]

Like tilted town doesn't need to manipulatively shade us like that

I wasn't being manipulative about it

[Black]

Yeah sure I woke up bloodthirsty today. And it's not like I've never tried

Bloodthirsty and defeated apparently. Compromising to my wagon doesn't feel right coming from you. You strike me as the player that would go for their more solid SRs. But I don't really know you so who knows