Open 452i - Open Space

[NovaDragon]

Well, taking after LastSurvivor, I come here and there're 5 pages! And yes I know there're isn't a real conjunction, but whatever, you'll exc'pt it; f'ck you.

Anyway, director sounded angry in his postings as AP was

funny

scum

newb

voted director over giggs

scumhunting someone in what appears to be in an effective manner.

VOTE: director

[NovaDragon]

you'll exc'pt it; f'ck you.

I think I meant accept, but whatever, you'll all deal wit' it

[NovaDragon]

People should stop using read masking reads such as "unbearable", just call the guy scum or town, end of story.

I'm sorry, I don't understand your point.

[NovaDragon]

the director, you're calling Matt scum for ignoring you then voting you when you've ignored him all game as well?

Your response affects whether or not I vote you so please make sure not to tell me the serious voting started 8 pages ago!

Not exactly. Here is my main reasoning:

MattP was directly asked to vote on my wagon, which he initially dismissed by posting a non-direct non-confrontational response of "lol noobs". I didn't post anything in between that post and the one where he voted me, yet now out of the blue he thinks I'm scummy because I was being a prick. The only thing that changed in the game was the number of votes on my wagon. Classic scum.

As far as the interaction bit, I noticed yesterday he really didn't respond to me at all, except when I responded to Lance's twilight post. Then today, he seemed dismissive of the wagon, up until it appeared there was enough heat for my lynch to go through. The fact that I haven't directly talked to him is not the issue.

Yes, it does seem scummy that MattP would do that. Your reactions are also scum-tacular. Therefore...

The team: Mattp/DeclanGiggs/Director

I'll see you all at the reception.

I agree, except

maybe

instead of giggs, Name User

[NovaDragon]

Wow okay, I apologize for my apparent lack of involvement. I meant to remove my vote from director, but lo and behold ignoring the game over the weekend resulted in a town kill. And then two more (Thanks MattP -_-). AP, you drove the shit outta that one, so why should we listen to your words now? I mean really though, self-proclaimed leadership does not make you an actual authority figure.

VOTE: AngryPidgeon

[NovaDragon]

For those of you keeping score at home, its still Dragon/Giggs. Im struggling with the 3rd, but leaning NameUser/Last Survivor.

Om is conftown. Im obvtown. Dragon and declan are obvscum for these noob-scum-tacular lines alone:

AP, you drove the shit outta that one, so why should we listen to your words now?

This is a blatant discrediting attempt coupled with delicious appeal to fear AND appeal to emotion. Its like a package deal.


Dragon it is today.

Was it really discrediting? I was merely asking you why we should listen. In fact, you really haven't made a real point here

self-proclaimed leadership does not make you an actual authority figure.

Yes it does.

All I stated was that claiming something you aren't doesn't make it true. Such as you, AP, claiming obvtown doesn't make it true.

[NovaDragon]

Once again, the truth is making me look bad so allow me to resummerize: I had intended to leave the wagon, director was lynched, shit happened. Who conducted his death? AP. Is it entirely possible AP is town? Sure... but to me I see him as most scum-like at this moment. I plan to give a better analysis sometime tonight, so hold tight.

For now, I actually don't mind this wagon on Declan, so UNVOTE: AP VOTE: Declan_giggs

[NovaDragon]

Well, I skimmed back through and have come to the conclusion that the team is likely AP/ Venmar + Other. AP for reasons already stated, and Venmar for hammer and drive for Omnom, who still seems town to me. The third is still open for me: Perhaps AP's drive on Declan is to have scum flip to make him look town, that's what I think. In conclusion: I'll keep my vote on Declan.

Pedit: "OmNom, stop making me feel more confident in you being one of the scum. If Declaran wasn't pinging my scumdar in those recent posts I would be advocating your lynch so hard."

Again, only making me more secure in my thoughts

[NovaDragon]

I don't think ever been more sure of my vote ever.

Declan giggs and director are scum team gg.

UNVOTE: Nom nom
VOTE: director

Choo choo bitches

The team: Mattp/DeclanGiggs/Director

I'll see you all at the reception.

UNVOTE: Mattp
VOTE: Declan Giggs

100% Guaranteed scum here.

^ This vote. It pleases me. As scummy as Declan is, Im actually more certain of Dragon right now. And that is saying something.

Om should be considered obvtown unless the hider didn't submit an action or is retarded. (And yes I will rage at you if you are fucking my reads up by doing something else)

Aether, Om and I are both town so try again. I will OMGUS whoever the hell I want. It isn't a scumtell. And dragon's opening post was off-the-charts scummy for reasons you can find in my ISO.

Dragon needs to die today. Declan is the 2nd most likely scum.

I think Venmar is town. I also think Aether is town. Disturbed's last post is making me , but I do not care since he is voting scum right now anyhow.

Every time you have your reads you've given no doubt to your scum tells. Why would you do this? You were wrong in

two

three of these scum reads at the very least, yet you say them with such conviction. I fail to see where everyone thinks I'm scum; anyone who is not scum, who is also voting for me, please stop and remember that the scumteam is voting with you RIGHT NOW. I haven't counted, but I think I'm dead.

Does everyone not realize exactly what's going on? Are we in so much of a push to lynch (or follow a bad one at that) that we are going to hand the victory over to the scum?? HALF OF THE NEEDED VOTERS ACCOUNT TO ALL OF THE SCUM! Our chance at victory is very small, and lynching so whimsically without intellectual conversation is going to guarantee our defeat. My money is on AP. AP/Venmar, with a side of Aether or Disturbed. And please, someone kill AP, to at least humor me when I die. In case I'm not dead UNVOTE: VOTE: AP

[NovaDragon]

I haven't counted, but I think I'm dead.

This is possibly the worst lie I've ever read.

This is probably the worst post I've ever read. And unless I miscounted, I believe I have just died. I'm town, and that's all there is to it.

[NovaDragon]

Venmar can't be scum because of the hammer.

He can't be? HE CAN'T BE?? Scum would LOVE to layeth down the hammer. But maybe you're right; if scum was on game, they would have voted before the hammer.

[NovaDragon]

Yes I have, and Venmar hammered both director and me. He is being so painfully anti-town with hammers that if he isn't scum, then he's a VI.

Is there something you'd like me to read specifically?

[NovaDragon]

Hmm, yes, if this is true then I may still be alive. In that case, a few votes haven't been vote bracketed either. I guess I can shut up for the time being

[NovaDragon]

Actually, in further review, Venmar hasn't vote bracketed ever... but since that hammered director, I guess those count?

[NovaDragon]

I'm allowed to post after having been lyched but before thread lock, right? So why wouldn't I post? The votes all added up since last night, so I never even had a chance to defend myself before the lynch happened. That's why I think it was an incredibly premature hammer

[NovaDragon]

Nova's scum. From those last three pages, Declan looks like scum too. The way that he goes after Om and tries to discredit his conftown hider status is just scumrific.

AP, I dunno if this is too much to ask, but could you stop double/triple posting? <.<

I'm not scum. Idk what I did really to make myself a target except get yelled at by AP and everyone else following him for merely uttering that he seemed most suspicious to me. Unless it was the "Shit I didn't want to kill director" comment, which admittedly was really stupid to even bring up. This is my second game ever so I'm a total VI, or newbscum, whatever you choose to think at this point.

Also, town win is very slim at this point: 5 votes for next lynch, with more than half the votes belonging to scum. I hope we can pull it off

[NovaDragon]

/In b4 CLAIMNOOB MUST BE SCUM

[NovaDragon]

Right, because using global terminology is so totally a scum tell [/sarcasm]

Really though, if that's what you are going off of, then you are bad at town. Or are scum. Whatever really, maybe next time I can be more believable by USING CAPS TO SEEM MORE LEGIT! Seriously, these tells on me are laughably ignorant/ full of scum juice!

[NovaDragon]

Meanwhile scum has built up such a case that I don't see how they

aren't

going to win. But we'll see... I haven't seen why AP is town, so again I say, I think he should be lynched next. AP/Venmar, toss-up for the third.

Also, I wonder if we'll have another Declan vote to townie again tomorrow, like the past two days have gone... I hope not. If Declan gets voted and flips scum, I'm not entirely convinced that would clear AP either

[NovaDragon]

VOTE: NovaDragon

Here's a case since some people have been asking others for one. I'd be happy to oblige.

For me, the crux is when he apologizes for being part of the lynch in #457. I don't believe he was going to unvote. Dragon claims that he was going to unvote on the weekend*, yet in his post #153 on Friday he attacks director and gives every indication that he believes he's scum. So I see no motive for Dragon unvoting, despite his claim that he would have.

#481 also bothers me. At this time, his vote is on Declan Giggs (see #476), yet Declan does not occupy a slot in his scum team in #481 originally. Also, Venmar is included there, even though he has never interacted with Venmar previously.

See this quote:

In post 500, NovaDragon wrote:Every time you have your reads you've given no doubt to your scum tells. Why would you do this? You were wrong in two three of these scum reads at the very least, yet you say them with such conviction.



I don't get this. Apparently AP is scum for being wrong with conviction. There is nothing scummy about being incorrect, and there's especially nothing scummy about having no doubt in your scum reads. In fact, it's the opposite. So I don't understand why Nova is trying to incriminate AP for this.

First, I didn't apologize for mislynching; I apologized for lack of involvement, and I've already mentioned that saying I had intended to leave the wagon was a stupid idea.

As for the vote on Declan, I went along with it because I wanted to see how people would react...

--
#491 from Disturbed_One: "Novadragon and Declan feel like obvscum to me. Declan tried to play the "I don't know what I did wrong" card, which is a huge scum-tell. Novadragon's AP vote was shitty to begin with, and his vote for Declan is such an obvious bus.

Vote: Novadragon"
--

As I look back through, I realize that Disturbed made the most bullshit argument on me. He voted me for a "bus" and a bunch of people (including scum) picked up on this so-called claim and ran with it. The problem with Disturbed's claim is that even if I were scum, which I'm not, it was merely the second vote on Declan at the time. I couldn't have been throwing him under the bus.

In light of this, I may have found the real scum among Disturbed_One, Om Nom, Aether, and Venmar. And I have no real reason to believe that Om is scum, unless he wants to bus Aether. Also, the whole "Oh I didn't know I was hammering oops" act is a really lame argument that some people are buying for no real reason.

So in the end of the day, UNVOTE: AP and VOTE: Aether because it feels damn good to me. Aether/Venmar/Disturbed looks like a good scum team

[NovaDragon]

Fuck... Okay, MattP hammered director... Shit! There are too many damn pages to read through.

[NovaDragon]

@Disturbed_One

I had to look it up myself. You are right with the terminology, but from what I understand it is usually accurate in finding scum if the bussee does it at a time that may result in a lynch. http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Bussing

That and it's really only applicable if the person bussing is scum

[NovaDragon]

First, I didn't apologize for mislynching; I apologized for lack of involvement, and I've already mentioned that saying I had intended to leave the wagon was a stupid idea.

Yes, sorry for the misquote. The general idea of my claim still stands though -- you weren't going to get off that wagon.

And scum do stupid things too.

As for the vote on Declan, I went along with it because I wanted to see how people would react...

Interesting. Why did you want to see how he would react?

I was trying to see 1. how Declan would react and 2. what everyone else would do.
What I got was 1. Declan seemed uninterested and 2. Scum wagoned me. Leaning so heavily on AP was a result of my head not being in the game; I was a bit furious that I had been "hammered". That's not to say he couldn't be scum, but an OMGUS vote on me really doesn't seem so scummy in retrospect. I am confident that

at the very least

one of those four I listed previously is scum

@Disturbed_One

I had to look it up myself. You are right with the terminology, but from what I understand it is usually accurate in finding scum if the bussee does it at a time that may result in a lynch. http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Bussing

That and it's really only applicable if the person bussing is scum

Yeah, well, I clarified what I actually mean. But nice try trying to twist my words around.

"Bus" was the wrong term; perhaps dodgy and distracting, but certainly not bussing. It is insulting that you and others would think what I did was bussing because it would have been the worst bus in mafia history [/hyperbole].

[NovaDragon]

I don't believe Om is scum, I honestly don't believe that he would be bussing right now if he were scum anyway. I think Disturbed is scum. I'm willing to sheep Om's judgment of Aether because Aether also seems rather sketchy. In my current half-asleep mindset, I have you AP as 50/50. It seems that you are trying to actively scum-hunt with your questioning. In regard to your read on Aether, I don't really buy it. Are you trying to say that Aether and Om are essentially the same person?

On a different note altogether, your effort to keep pushing me as scum seems like a defensive maneuver: 1. (if town) Because I've stepped back from you, if you stepped away from me we'd continue to appear to be scum-partners or some shit (I forget who was saying this, I'll look at it tomorrow) or 2. (if scum) You may be able to more easily convince people to vote me than someone else for a town lynch.

Anyway, I'll tackle more of this tomorrow, I really need to sleep.

[NovaDragon]

I changed my mind, AP is 70/30 leaning scum. AP's current basis as to why he and Aether are not scum is that they both are drawing attention to themselves.

In post 680, AngryPidgeon wrote: "Is shifting gears a scumtell? The last time I checked, they try to be somewhat consistent as not to draw attention to themselves."<--- this right here... I feel that this has only been said as a means to implant this idea into other people's minds; that you can't possibly be scum because why would you draw this attention. You've managed to sway some people away from Aether with it, so why not use it for yourself too? I give you 30% town because your points aren't entirely invalid... however your aggressive-defensiveness makes me really suspect that you are

hiding

something...

[NovaDragon]

UNVOTE: VOTE: AngryPidgeon

[NovaDragon]

Heh, I feel my vote speaks loudly enough LS.

If you really want more I'll say this: I'm not opposed to lynching Disturbed instead... It just means it will be harder to convince people that AP is scum when Disturbed flips scum

[NovaDragon]

Fair enough, as I predicted someone had to make the case on my

"180".

You are absolutely correct that AP was a strong town "read" from me. Keyword:

"read"

. As the second quote shows, I was not able to back up why I felt the way I did with facts. It was more of a read than anything else.

I love how you have to surround read with quotes. We already know they're fake, no need to accentuate it more. /joke.

I believe it's highly possible that I haven't examined AP heavily enough until now.

And this statement is glorious. So, did you or did you not? And are you still examining me or are you just sheeping Fitzy for the rest of the Day?

(Fitz, I love how obvtown Im going to be when Disturbed flips. You are really all-in on this play of yours)

Distubed, your posts have a distinct lack of unique opinions. It could be partially a personality thing, but your whole reasoning behind "Well I thought AP was doing townie things, but maybe I didn't look hard enough, I'll just sheep Fitz" is pretty much a scum claim. And what is your read on Nova now? Read on LS?

In that case I'm also obvtown if/when Disturbed flips.

No I wouldn't, I'd be using tons of expletives and yelling at everyone for being dumbasses.

Hey look, thats what Im doing

[NovaDragon]

I changed my mind, AP is 70/30 leaning scum. AP's current basis as to why he and Aether are not scum is that they both are drawing attention to themselves.

In post 680, AngryPidgeon wrote: "Is shifting gears a scumtell? The last time I checked, they try to be somewhat consistent as not to draw attention to themselves."<--- this right here... I feel that this has only been said as a means to implant this idea into other people's minds; that you can't possibly be scum because why would you draw this attention. You've managed to sway some people away from Aether with it, so why not use it for yourself too? I give you 30% town because your points aren't entirely invalid... however your aggressive-defensiveness makes me really suspect that you are

hiding

something...

Called it! If it's true anyway, which I have no reason to believe it isn't unless someone else claims. For now UNVOTE: VOTE: Disturbed_One

[NovaDragon]

I'm neither scum nor dumb... I had implied that if you weren't scum then you were the hider. You hadn't given me any doubt that you weren't scum, so I followed what I thought was a good vote.

[NovaDragon]

Sorry LastSurvivor, I thought that was a rhetorical question. Of course I don't know, but I have a good idea about it. He's been flaky with his reads and has danced around like he's nervous. Recently he decided to support the wagon on AP when it gained momentum over his previous wagon on me which wasn't going anywhere... Presumably he was hoping that AP would flip town and fitz and I would look suspicious (not that I know if fitz is town, but I'm willing to believe so). Admittedly it seemed like a town post to me until AP became conftown; this also unfortunately means that I am in the realm of suspicion once again... But I feel certain that scum is hiding within those of us who voted AP, and I think a Disturbed lynch would be most beneficial. Especially since, as AP stated, no one has a town read on him (unless someone does, in which case feel free to speak up).

[NovaDragon]

If you are hiding behind fitz tonight, that will help sort out nova tomorrow, since fitz scum means for sure nova scum.

Why the hell does that make me scum?

[NovaDragon]

I explained this. Fitz pushed the unvote strictness. If Fitz is scum, why would he save nova town on a technicality?

This is actually a big reason I believe he is town. If he isn't, then I'm not sure why he argued for me other than just trying to keep in the spirit of the game

[NovaDragon]

My push on you WAS justified AP. You are playing like shit. The only thing saving you is your claim.

As for Dragon, my comment was

"AP town = decent chance Dragon is scum".

No one is clear IMO except for you and Om. I had Venmar up there on my list and I don't like the way he hemmed and hawed on you before flippantly voting you. Disturb could be scum as well but I like Venmar.

VOTE: Venmar

Also...not sure if anyone mentioned it but

Disturbed is at L-1

if my count is right.

- I don't really care if you think I am a better vote, you avoiding Disturbed means you're unwilling to land the hammer, as in you're unwilling to take the blame when he flips town. The fact you vote for me, and then declare Disturbed as L-1 is scummy as fuck because

you're trying to derail his wagon to me while simultaneously trying to bait someone into pushing Disturbed.

Point is, you're not playing from a town's mindset because even if you're pushing one of your "scumreads", you're trying to derail a wagon while simultaneously trying to keep the door open for the bigger wagon, this is a scums mindset because if you were town, you would just push Disturbed if he was your scumread rather than do 3 things at once.

Unvote
Vote: HavingFitz

Legit scum right here guys.

The Disturbed wagon has to die, there is nothing bad or wrong in how he has been saying and not to sound like a broken record, but Disturbed has been one of the most honest and genuine players as of yet.

First, who is he baiting into pushing the wagon, and how can he do that while attempting a derail? Second, why is it

not

scummy for

you

to derail the wagon on Disturbed?

[NovaDragon]

I just don't see how announcing L-1 (which it isn't) is indicative of anything. Meanwhile you are yelling at Fitz for not voting Disturbed EVEN THOUGH YOU THINK HE'S TOWN! If you really feel good about Disturbed being town, then you shouldn't be upset if someone else thinks there's better scum out there... Except you are butthurt that the other suspect is you, so now you've constructed a shitty ass argument.

"- Dude. This was a horrible response. ( Hey AP, i get what you mean now! )"

And this is clearly buddying up to conftown

[NovaDragon]

I'm still good with an Aether lynch

[NovaDragon]

Ven is still too hard to tell. While he has mostly voted townies (Om, AP, Director, Me... Especially me), 'unknowingly' dropped the hammer on me, and has been spewing some pretty lame stuff lately... His style and reasoning have actually seemed town oriented. I have a lean toward scum, but it isn't very strong, say 60-40.

I'm not thrilled about Disturbed either, but he still hasn't seemed very town imo.
I guess I'll need to do a few more iso's before I come up with a conclusive list, but here's what I got...

Town: Om ofc, AP ofc, Fitz
Scum: Disturbed, Aether, and Venmar (until I do some more iso's)

The rest of y'all just sit tight

PEdit: I really thought we'd get to the end of the time period before lynch...

[NovaDragon]

I agree with giggs; I think hiding behind him would be a poor choice. If Disturbed is town, then you may have reason to hide behind him. Even so, his hammer was at least considered and not just accidental. No one has a good town read on Disturbed anyway, so he probably would have been lynched anyway. If Disturbed ends up scum, then we're good anyway... I guess my point is that his hammer does not seem damning to him, but hiding behind him IS damning (esp. if he's town).

[NovaDragon]

Oh that's right. Venmar's YOLO gives him another +10 to scum.

[NovaDragon]

Basically, AP fucked up when he was at L-2, but he has been DYING to claim all day. Now, he is DYING to die tonight and take a townie with him. And this is different than his fitz thing because there we have a tie to nova to also work out. If he des behind fitz due to fitz being scum, we have nova nailed too as there s no way scum fitz saved a townie on a technicality.

First, you are implying that AP WANTS to kill town. That's just not true, and makes you shady as shit by saying it. Second, if fitz is somehow scum, that does not solidify a tie to me! Because it just does not have solid ground. If fitz is scum, then he is commendable scum.

[NovaDragon]

While I agree that we should have waited, and was probably the best option, I don't think lynching Disturbed now was a "wrong" play, if that makes sense. If he is scum, and apparently giggs feels strongly about it, then why risk the wagon to disband?

Further, it seems like a bad play for scum to hammer knowing the hider has revealed himself...

[NovaDragon]

Aether, when you haven't been busy riding my ass, you were riding Om. You voted Fitz briefly, and had voted Director... You're votes have been shit, and the words coming from you smell to high heaven! Can you explain why my words are shit at least? Is it not bad play for scum to hammer right now? Do you really think that AP wants to kill townies?

[NovaDragon]

Unfortunately, the best we can do is assume he is a very unreliable hider for purposes of scum hunting today.

Because he still lives, and has given us a conftown, that is bad hider play? Sounds like you're just bitter that AP didn't target you to get killed last night.

Look, I'm not against an Aether vote... in fact, AP had promised Om to do so. And yes Declan, you can WIFOM all day about how clearing Fitz makes me look town therefore I'm actually scum. But the simple fact is that YOU look scummy as hell right now, and I made no such promises to Om. VOTE: Declan_giggs

[NovaDragon]

It's not that I am conftown, but it doesn't make me look any scummier than I looked. Besides that, I am town

Also... aww Venmar, that's such a sad post Just as life, everyone has their good games and bad games...

[NovaDragon]

Why would hider not reveal him/herself at this point (assuming AP is lying)? The only way anyone would even believe for one second that AP is not scum, is if another hider claimed... Which they haven't. You know why? Because scum is afraid and will be lynched the moment they claim it! If the so-called "real" hider announces and we lynch him, THEN we will know that AP is truly a dirty rotten little bird... Your move scum.

[NovaDragon]

Okay, but at this point, if scum is actually Om and AP, then hider NEEDS to reveal himself, otherwise there's no basis for argument against other so-called conftown (Ven, AP, Omnom). The sooner a legitimate reveal, the sooner town can wrap-it-up! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rg7vfvQ9Ctg

[NovaDragon]

Let's

VOTE GIGGS AND THEN VOTE AP IF GIGGS IS TRUE HIDER

(which he won't be)! Seriously, get this day over with!

[NovaDragon]

I'm pretty sure I was voting, but I'll do this...VOTE: Declan_giggs VOTE: Declan_giggs VOTE: Declan_giggs VOTE: Declan_giggs VOTE: Declan_giggs VOTE: Declan_giggs VOTE: Declan_giggs VOTE: Declan_giggs VOTE: Declan_giggs VOTE: Declan_giggs VOTE: Declan_giggs

Venmar! Do it. Nao.

[NovaDragon]

Sorry, I forgot to UNVOTE: ... Now VOTE: Declan_giggs

[NovaDragon]

Giggs

IS

the clear lynch today... I'm not posting again until the next day

[NovaDragon]

VOTE: Aether BOOM!

[NovaDragon]

Reads list:
Om: I'd like to think is town, but continued, fruitless bickering with Aether is bothering me.
Nova: Nothing scummy.
AngryPidgeon: Angry! Towny town-asset.
Declan giggs: Scum.
Distrubed One: Lurky scum.
Aether: Most anti-town player in game. Won't be playing any games with this guy in the near future.
havingfitz: Walls of text and a slight smartass, but probtown.
Last survivor: Nothing scummy.
Venmar: Puzzling and lurky, making him scummy.

This, along with his general votes makes me believe that NU is town. Aether is scum.

[NovaDragon]

I was actually up real late haha

[NovaDragon]

VOTE: Name UserVOTE:

WOW! I'm really shocked that Aether was not scum. Also, I take back the supporting evidence for why Name User would be town.
I'm actually surprised to see Om nom alive still... So Om, I guess I'll present my side first.

Name User murdered the SHIT outta Venmar. Why did he choose Ven over you? My theory is that NU will to say something like "Nova must be scum because Om Nom has openly stated that he believes Nova is town; therefore, Nova thinks there's a better chance for Om Nom to vote me, Name (fucking) User."

Nova's response will likely be "Why the fuck did you not kill Om nom? Venmar probably would have been more likely to vote against me (Nova, the Magnificent,

Rodriguez

Dragon)"

I could do a more detailed analysis if you'd like, but this seems like something you're gonna have to do to prevent any biases (especially considering both NU and I know who scum is)

[NovaDragon]

That's a good one... alright, I'll try to build a case against myself...?

I voted director off the space craft.
I had so-called reads against Venmar and AP. In fact, I was "convinced" atm that Venmar was scum based on his hammer... I never fully dropped the idea until AP's confirm.
I forced AP to out his hider... As scum, I guess I would love to know that information.
I had made an argument against Disturbed_One, but instead of continuing with it I let it die a bit (although I still spoke strongly against him -- town cred?).
Voted Disturbed_One (Town cred)
I buddied up with Havingfitz after he saved my life (who I would have wanted end game)
I agreed with giggs about AP's hiding decision...
Voted giggs (town-cred...)

That's about what I got.

[NovaDragon]

Just so we are clear, I was purposefully waiting on NU. But considering he is lurking hardcore, I guess I will just answer your questions, Om.
I would have the possible advantage that you thought I was town anyway - so boom, bam, done.
NU would have the possible advantage to try to make the above argument for why I would be scum.

[NovaDragon]

Also Nova, please fix your vote tags.

Sorry, didn't realize that... VOTE: Name User

I will make a case on NU if you feel like it would help Om. I'm more than willing to do so

[NovaDragon]

I'm going to make a case based off of Name User's bussing.

Going with my gut, declan is looking scummy.
I'm wondering why we don't have a wagon on him.
And I'm pretty sure there is no declan-om team.

But anyway,

I don't like the people on the wagon, but VOTE: Om for now.
Matt is being pretty useless, but isn't hurting town too much, plus it's still pretty early, so let's not hammer him. (Like I said, I doubt he's scum, anyway.)

Here Name User begins his bus on Declan.

I'll change my vote for a Venmar or a Declan wagon.

So he vote's Om, then openly admits that he will bus his partner (or lynch a townie)

Fitz seems to be town, because I agree with most of his reasoning. NovaDragon is just unlucky town.

Somebody convince me that Declan is scum.

He want's to bus, so he's trying to get someone else to make a good argument... Also, notice the mention that I am "unlucky town".

If I'm hider I'm hiding behind Declan

"If I'm hider"... which he isn't, and "behind Declan"... because why not talk the real hider into hiding behind NU's scum-partner to "find" scum, take care of hider, and still appear town.

In post 561, Name User wrote:Oh, and by the way Om, I didn't really suspect you by the end of day 1, I just never changed my vote.
You said this looked town. Why?

In post 563, Name User wrote:NovaDragon is just unlucky town.
What events or statements constituted this town read at the time you declared it?
Hmm, not a town read. "Unlucky null" would have been a better word-choice. I meant that I felt the wagon on Nova was unjustified, there was nothing scummy about him in my opinion.

Reads list:
Om: I'd like to think is town, but continued, fruitless bickering with Aether is bothering me.
Nova: Nothing scummy.
AngryPidgeon: Angry! Towny town-asset.
Declan giggs: Scum.
Distrubed One: Lurky scum.
Aether: Most anti-town player in game. Won't be playing any games with this guy in the near future.
havingfitz: Walls of text and a slight smartass, but probtown.
Last survivor: Nothing scummy.
Venmar: Puzzling and lurky, making him scummy.

So, Giggs is scum, and there's scum in Venmar, Aether, Disturbed One. I'm still contemplating on Om.

Several things here... First, despite his L-2 vote on Om, he claims to "not really suspect him", all the while, still having mentioned that he is good with a bus on giggs. Second, NOW he is calling me "unlucky null". So he was calling me town at first, and then flipped to call me null when he didn't want to make me look

too

town. Also, here's the strong bus... the strongest on Declan, and a second bus on his other partner. Notice he also has his fail-safe read on Venmar (probably hoping for a lynch on him later).

Declan says: I played along with the everybody say their hider target thing, but it was a horribly scumtacular idea in truth and NOT the best strategy for the town to benefit from the hider role (not that we had time for a better strategy with the rush to lynch Dragon). AP also tried to open the door to me to "claim hider" (post 524) then lynch me when the real hider counterclaims. Scummy.

AP ask: Declan, why would that plan work for me?
1. Why would you be so dumb as to fake claim hider for any reason ever? Why would I think I could get you to fake claim hider?
2. Geting you lynched for fake claiming (AND THEREFORE BEING SCUM SINCE THAT IS THE ONLY FEASIBLE TIME YOU WOULD DO THAT) is scummy how? Even if I were retarded enough to think I could get you to fakeclaim as town?

Best I've seen so far, and that's why
VOTE: Giggs

He got his bus vote finally.

Okay, I'd like to see him post something good, actually.
UNVOTE: Declan_Giggs
VOTE: Disturbed One

And immediately removed because it was time to bus his other partner or risk losing townie points.

Declan says: I played along with the everybody say their hider target thing, but it was a horribly scumtacular idea in truth and NOT the best strategy for the town to benefit from the hider role (not that we had time for a better strategy with the rush to lynch Dragon). AP also tried to open the door to me to "claim hider" (post 524) then lynch me when the real hider counterclaims. Scummy.

AP ask: Declan, why would that plan work for me?
1. Why would you be so dumb as to fake claim hider for any reason ever? Why would I think I could get you to fake claim hider?
2. Geting you lynched for fake claiming (AND THEREFORE BEING SCUM SINCE THAT IS THE ONLY FEASIBLE TIME YOU WOULD DO THAT) is scummy how? Even if I were retarded enough to think I could get you to fakeclaim as town?

Best I've seen so far, and that's why
VOTE: Giggs

Why has nobody responded to this?

Declan's sliding out of scum territory, but you can't just disregard this.

Despite his vote on Disturbed, he still REALLY wants to lynch Declan. I think he is actually trying to save Disturbed at this point, which is understandable until he realizes that it is fruitless... and then he does this...

Aether seems to be counting on his idiocy protecting him since a mislynch today leads to LYLO D3. We're lynching him at deadline if no better case emerges. I'm in, the deliberate WIFOM actually removes some of my doubt about the purpose of it for me.

Been re-reading through the thread and I've decided that Aether is obvious town. Declan trying to push through a mislynch on an obvious townie and setting up an out for when he flips town at the same time is... exactly what I would expect of scum to do.

I can see Aether being town, but obvious town? He's playing the exact same thing as last time, and Declan makes an excellent point, what the hell?

... Back-pedaling! He realizes that he needs to do some back-pedaling so that he doesn't lose both partners.

Disregarding page 32 except

Here's where I see where we are: regardless of individual people's individual reads, which are wildly different in many cases, I can divide the players up into a few categories which make it easy for me to think about them strategically.

Lurkers/noncontributors: Name User, Venmar, LastSurvivor. To varying degrees these three players don't have much to say very often at all. This is more an observation about their FREQUENCY of appearing in the thread and less a value judgement on their posts that they have made. In my experience, this style of play is typical of a disinterested vanilla townie or a scaredyscum, who is afraid of slipping up if they say/participate too much. Given that there are 9 players (plus me) and 3 scum, and 3 players in this sub group, it is likely there is ONE SCUM in this lurkpool. Order of my vibe: scummiest Venmar, name user, LastSurvivor most likely town

Completely agree.

Dumbasses: OmoftheNom and Aether. If we weren't in crunch time already due to sad developments we can't take back, I'd be delighted to policy lynch either of these two, preferably Aether. But there is too much WIFOM here to make any call on these two. The good news for the town's win condition is they will just keep slapping each other and mostly stay out of the way. These two will probably get re-categorized for Day 3.

Except now Om is confirmed town.

Tryhards: This is not an insult (although I used it that way at AP earlier when he was just all about lynching a name any name). Fitz and AP. Both are trying to build cases, both have points that sway me, and both have points and occassional bursts of activity that I don't feel very good about. Each has established connections that especially in the case of AP I have talked about in previous posts. Either COULD be scum, my game-long suspicion has been on AP, and I still feel Fitz is more likely to be town, except under one condition I will discuss below. AP has stepped up his explanations for his FoSs, which isn't a scumtell, he clearly just realized that his original style was losing traction, so either way he had to up his game.

But Fitz's wall-posting verbosity is anti-town.

Lynchable, likely scum: Disturbed and Nova Dragon. Both of these players have managed to give a general feeling of scumminess to most of us at most points in the game. Mitigating Nova's scumminess for some people is how he reacted during pseudo-twilight, when his posts were pretty resigned in nature. This only slightly changes the fact that we intended to lynch him, and was saved by a technicality. We benefit from a ND lynch in that if he does flip town, Fitz is practically 100% cleared; why would scum have brought up the voting technicality if there was s successful town lynch? If ND were to flip scum, Fitz is quite damned although not as conclusively as he is cleared by a ND town flip.

Okay, Fitz is town anti-town, because I doubt Nova is scum.

We need to narrow our focus to these two players in my opinion (unless there is a STRONG appetite for an Aether policy lynch/roll of the dice? Didn't think so....) Let's disucss whether the gain from lynching Nova pays off, and whether a Nova scumflip means the hider should hide behind Fitz. If we cannot come to a consensus on a solid benefit from lynching NovaDragon, we should each post a read with a reason on Disturbed. Of course a few people will sheep a wagon on Disturbed, which is at their own peril. My own feeling is both could well be scum (together) and we aren't really going wrong lynching either.

So really just Nova for me.

An in all a very good post Declan.

More back-pedaling! Also, I think he's warming up to me for several possible reasons... He thought that I may eventually be mislynched to give him town-cred, I may help him lynch town (like Venmar -- or now Aether), and/or had plans for me for end-game .

Ven is still too hard to tell. While he has mostly voted townies (Om, AP, Director, Me... Especially me), 'unknowingly' dropped the hammer on me, and has been spewing some pretty lame stuff lately... His style and reasoning have actually seemed town oriented. I have a lean toward scum, but it isn't very strong, say 60-40.

Town oriented? How?

DECLAN ANSWER MY QUESTION PLEASE

Then, he was surprised that I backed away from my heavy-lean on Venmar, who was another one of his "scum" reads.

I'm not sure what to say about Lastsurvivor's question to me, other than I thought it was rhetorical.

NU, were you not calling Mattp and the other unbearables by
1. Mentioning only them in your opening post
2. Voting one of them with no other reason provided

Why did you feel the need to respond to me pointing it out?
Read on last survivor and giggs?

Because you were putting words in my mouth. Yes I said they were unbearable, but this was basically an RV, iirc the first 4 pages were full of useless crap by the time I got here.
Last Survivor: Null. Haven't really been paying much attention to him. (By the way, LS, I thought your avatar was a chair until I looked closely at it. )
Giggs: Town. It's a weak read, because I did think he was scum for a significant amount of time, he's not in any way cleared, but that's my opinion at this moment.

Back-pedaling without trying to be too obvious about it.

That was real short-like.

Alright. I'm cringing at the fact I missed the entire day.
I'm doubting Giggs will flip town, so no need to worry about that.
And we're lynching Aether tomorrow.

AP, why'd you decide to hide behind LS? I'm having trouble understanding that.

NU lurked, Declan became an ultra idiot... His only saving grace is that he knew where to kill, and an Aether lynch looked good.

That's my case.

My only regret is that we didn't allow Aether to voice his opinion.
And now it is your turn, master lurker.

[NovaDragon]

My only regret is that we didn't allow Aether to voice his opinion.

"OM OF THE NOM IS SCUM LYNCH HIM NOW"

Still sure you wanted it?

Oh yeah... that's right -_-'

[NovaDragon]

Fuck... Really? Preemptive?...

He voted me first!

If you were gonna vote on that, then I wouldn't have even built an entire case in the first place!
Goddammit...

[NovaDragon]

But I did build a case against myself... Think about this... Why didn't he say anything against me in his first post?

[NovaDragon]

Should I reveal my alignment before Techno does his thingy? Or do I wait? I'm asking because this is my second game and I don't know the proper etiquette

[NovaDragon]

Of course I understand why he voted me. That's not what I'm asking.

I attacked first because I was nervous, you say. I can very easily say NU did NOT attack first because he was nervous. I was really hoping you were going to consider my arguments, not a lame over-reaction to the night events before this day...



I blame NU's lurking over this whole day for the result. He waited for me to go first on everything. Even though I warned against it, it has paid off for him.
I'll wait for the mod to do the reveal... I've enjoyed his flavor

[NovaDragon]

NU's lurking was the reason why it took so long for me to finally decide.

That's why I blame him >.>

[NovaDragon]

Thanks Techno for the great game! Believe me Om, I too was tired... but I knew that Name User's lurking was going to get us nowhere, so that's why I went ahead and started off with an attack. I wouldn't call it preemptive, but rather

starting

. Actually, if I sounded nervous, it was because I really REALLY thought Aether was scum and I posted while my emotions were running. And I guess I was hoping you'd vote sooner so you would just go with your gut instinct, which is why I suggested doing your own research... Again, the lurking is what did it.

Om... not once did I truly suspect you. For some reason I just never thought you weren't town.

Fitz... Thanks for the technicality call. I thought I was a goner ^_^' And it definitely earned you instant town-status for me

I thought the "why would you be scum" question wasn't so bad... it did turn up nothing, but I could see why to try it.

Congratulations Name User and scumteam! Name User... I hate you SOOO much right now... lol

Angry Pidgeon... I wish I would have just voted Disturbed so your hider claim would have been good for later... but I needed to know! lol.

Aether... really bro?

Venmar, I was too proud to let your mislynch go unchallenged. It was the only reason I still had a scumread towards you, I guess I should take things less personally.

Mhork, director, and MattP... sorry I was basically absent day one. And I had actually intended to remove my vote on you director, I just didn't think D1 was going to end as quickly as it did.

All and all, there were some good plays, and some awful plays. I'm sure I had my share of awful posts. Somehow I tend to make myself a target early on... Frankly I did not mind it until I was suddenly lynched, I thought I'd get some kind of reads out of those who voted against me. Then the hammer distracted me from my initial plan... But it did give me something to go against for Disturbed, so it ended up working... I just wish Aether would have played better.

[NovaDragon]

I am never playing with Aether or letting him join one of my games ever again.
Seriously, with 3 hider claims all making me confirmed town regardless, attacking me it's just fucking stupidity at it's finest.

Exactly. I don't understand how he was town when he was playing so horribly...