camn's temperamental - Mini 1232 - GAME OVER

[Chair]

/confirm

I know more than half the playerlist to varying extents. Yay.

-implosion

[Chair]

Zang is town for 31. Sathorsis might be town for 30.

@BB:
1) started in EM, migrated (thankfully) here. I have maybe 10-15 completed games here, and like 3 or 4 forum games off site.
2) breadcrumbs, push, etc. Don't claim if unnecessary.

VOTE: Twistedspoon

While it is ideal that all town should be willing to play optimally and be unconcerned with their lynch if it promotes the town win condition,

In what situation would the lynch of a town member promote the town win condition?

-implosion

[Chair]

Questions to BBmolla (only mine):
1. Played two games on MS (one was a noobie, one with this hydra). Played a few elsewhere (forum and chat). Definitely not as experienced/good as implosion.
2. I like TS's answer actually, though I never done it in practice. THOUGH HONESTLY I WOULD RATHER BE VIG MWHAHAHA.

I'm in agreement that there's nothing wrong with breaking RVS if one thinks that there is something wrong.

Pre-edit: lol I spent too long not posting this lol. Edited stuff to make it make sense LOL.

@Zang
They're reads.

-obv. Misder

[Chair]

@BBmolla
Yes. Also, how do you know that Fishy would be lynched?

-Misder

[Chair]

hi parama are you scum

-implosion

[Chair]

hi parama are you scum

-implosion

yes now help me drive this mislynch

Vote: BBmolla

-Misder

[Chair]

We still think that Zang is town. Still don't think Zang would be so blatant about lying. but meh. I personally don't like Zang's posting, but we'll stick with town for now.
Fishy definitely feels town.
Sathoris feels town.
TS feels town.
Lurconis feels scummy.

@sheeping BAAAAA. I like where our vote is still.

More details when implosion gets online and we have time to discuss.

-Misder

[Chair]

So. Up to page four and oddly enough I agree with all of misder's reads (specifically: lurconis scummy, sathorsis/zang town, fishy town). Not sure about TS. Parama is probably town. I'm not sure about johhog (mixed feelings), but something about this:

ORLY? Heavy FoS: Zang Note: This was originally a vote, but an even scummier player emerged later.

felt a bit disingenuous. Zang asked the obvious question, but to take it a step further: Johhog, when you say that it's scummy because he's trying to get towncred, isn't your reasoning essentially circular? that is, to say that he's doing it in order to gain towncred, you have to assume that he's scum. He could also be genuine town who didn't realize that scum could daytalk pregame. Why jump to the conclusion that Zang is scum from it?

[Chair]

-implosion, by the way.

[Chair]

Unvote: BBmolla
Vote: lurconis

-Misder

[Chair]

We believe the claim. It seems to thorough for scum to make up and the role is reasonable.
Lurconis is now the top of our scumlist.
Also allows us to continue discussing without fear of a "still think bbmolla scum" quicklynch (as in, without discussing). New information is important for town to discuss as soon as possible cause scum can talk all night.

-Misder

[Chair]

If the role is useful for either team, why wouldn't we keep him alive? What can scum do with a name cop anyways? Since BB is outed, we can use him EVEN IF he is scum cause if he doesn't help us, then we know he's scum.

-Misder

[Chair]

SO i've been completely ignoring this game for some reason. So, now it's time for a series of WONDERFULMAGICAWESOMENESS WALLPOSTS WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooo

Though if I'm so convinced in my mind that you're scum, it implies that I am legitimately scumhunting, which in turn implies I'm town. But you say I'm scum. So that term couldn't possibly apply to me, right? If I'm scum, I would be absolutely sure you were town, right? Why would I have to convince myself that you're scum, if I knew objectively that it wasn't true? Your train of logic only makes sense if you think I'm town, which you don't.

WIFOM, dismissable.

go get sexually assaulted in a dark alley
this is never the right response
sathoris is actually a good candidate for rounding out my 3-man scumteam
though where has twisted disappeared to recently

Hrm. Yeah, this is a bit scummy, and certainly notable. Dismissing X as WIFOM is a classic scum tactic, but it can also just be a townie who doesn't really understand how WIFOM works.

So Sathorsis: your post implies that Parama's argument is dismissible solely because it is WIFOMic in nature. Can't this be used to dismiss essentially any argument at any time? All of mafia is wifomic - any given action can almost always be assigned both town and mafia motivations, and the goal of town is to determine the more likely motivation. So why should any wifom argument, which inherently has motivations, be dismissed?

The only major thing I note about Chair is that he's coming up with all these reads, but isn't giving reasoning or evidence for them.

Wait. What the frick is this? Parama says he's scum and asks for help on a mislynch? And he COMPLIES?

Conclusion:

I don't know how I can't NOT find the scummy.

Unvote, Vote Chair

Heh. Haylen, what is the mafia motivation for that post of ours? Note: you are not allowed to use the word WIFOM in your answer.

It's called Doublethink.

I almost want to call you town just for this just because I like the argument. But it's a decent point, anyway - if Parama openly admits that he is going to look only for scum motivation in BB's posts, then he is tunneling. Tunneling isn't necessarily a towntell or a scumtell. It could be argued that it's necessarily antitown since it eliminates consideration of a possibility that should still be considered.

Frankly, I could see Parama as scum in this game at this point. He's aggressive as both alignments, and I'm honestly not entirely sure how to read him.

Parama: would you say that you, as town, often wind up tunneling this early? And when I say tunneling, I don't mean having a strong scumread, I mean the extent of tunneling that you're doing with BB right now.

We've seemed to slow down.

VOTE: BBMolla

Discuss.

Did you intentionally ignore the question directed at you in the post above this? Because that question was essentially exactly what I would have asked. Why are BB and fishy "safe" lynches? Why use the word safe?

Basically, there is no way that "doublethinking scum" is a plausible read for anyone to have on anyone else, particularly so early on.

I disagree. I don't really see why the reconciliation with the doublethink argument is scummy - I think it was just a series of misunderstandings where BB was trying to say something but couldn't communicate it, and eventually realized that doublethink communicated it well.

my top two scum suspects were fishy and BB , seeing fishy's last post i guess only one of them might be scum . im not entirely convinced that BB's a town cop but since its easily confirmable im going to move on to the other scum . UNVOTE

So... what other scum are we talking about and why isn't there a vote for them?

~implosion

[Chair]

I believe the claim too. BBmolla is still my favorite lynch. In fact, I will not be changing my vote for the rest of the day. What does his claim have to do with his alignment at all?

Frankly, at first, I didn't consider the possibility of a scum name cop, and right now, on rereading, I don't really see bb as scum in general.

But what can he do for town? I have a decent idea of what the flavor entails and I'd think that flavor names aren't going to be indicative of alignment in this game. Which also means scum have no reason to fakeclaim.

A few things.
First of all, if you're town, you have no reason to assume that all flavor names are not indicative of alignment. Who knows? The scum's names could be indicative of scum. Second of all, just because scum have no reason to fakeclaim, doesn't mean that they necessarily won't.

Either way: dismissing the idea of a flavor cop having no utility for town is... a bit strange when the town doesn't know what the scums' flavor names are. I understand that you're tunneling him, but still. Lurconis touched on that.

That's not doublethink.

And I'm not saying it is; I'm saying that doublethink was the word or concept that BB was looking for to express his thoughts on whatever it was.

I'll finish reading everything tomorrow, i really need to get a decent amount of sleep tonight.

Parama: would you say that you, as town, often wind up tunneling this early? And when I say tunneling, I don't mean having a strong scumread, I mean the extent of tunneling that you're doing with BB right now.

Still waiting on this answer.

-implosion

[Chair]

So I'm going to focus on this game for a bit. This goes to the bottom of page 10 (reads are going to come after I'm done with the readthrough):

I see three pathways from the current point.

A.

I get lynched today, preventing other PRs to be outed and confirming my town status.

B.

You tell me who to check, I get a report for you, then I be lynched to confirm my town status.

C.

You keep me alive.

I think the most logical course of action is B. However, this is dependent on whether the town believes characters are relevent to roles or not. Otherwise probably A would benefit us the most in this situation.
My preferred would be C of course, but I can understand the current circumstance from your point of view and can understand why that's not a plausible path.

There's just one issue with this. There's no inherent reason that you'd out your report unless it was useful.

However, certain aspects of BB's posting have to a large extent convinced me he's town. This is a great example of that: what he's doing makes sense with him as town, partially because it makes very little sense with him as one of the mafia. Someone talked about surviving another day being good for scum. Why, though, would scum not want to survive more than a day? BB is acting like he wants to do what is best for the town - there's little scum motivation behind his attitude.

His essential resignation to death, though obviously deplorable for reasons of it being bad for whatever side he's on, indicates that he's on our side. Sure, it could just be a ruse, but why should we assume that it is? If he appears genuine - and I believe that he does - he should be considered as town. The number one goal of the mafia is to survive - and at that point, if BB has resigned himself to death tomorrow at the latest, survival is not his number one priority.

You guys are really letting me down right now. I thought that I taught you better than this. Consider the following:

1. Our posting restriction is based on our role name.
2. Role powers are unrelated to our role name.
3. Some of our posting restrictions should be very obvious to other at this point.
4. Does that not imply, then, that given how we are encouraged to indirectly divulge this information that it should be not provide any benefit to either faction?
5. Given that,

how is a role name cop useful for either town or exceptional alignments?

6. HOW DOES LEAVING AN EXCEPTIONAL WIN CONDITION NAME COP ALIVE PROVIDE ANY BENEFIT TO TOWN?

Until I see something that explains how BBmolla is more likely to be town now, there is no reason to leave him alive.

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, all granted - but your conclusion's a bit odd. You're making an assumption that "exceptional win condition" players have normal-sounding role names. Why would you assume this based on only your own name! It doesn't make sense. I agree that a name cop has almost no utility to the bad guys - but what IF those bad guys were... y'know... given names that sound like bad guys!

More than that, you seem to be implying that a name cop has absolutely no utility whatsoever to either alignment And yet, you then go on to talk about how it having no utility to town doesn't make it unlikely. What about if it's a scum role - you know, like you've been saying it is. Why would there be a random, not-useful mafia namecop?

Yes, a name cop is benefecial to the town as it can confirm other townies and perhaps find the unsavouray names of scum. I already it's less likely to be a scum role (unless he lies about the full power of his role) because a name of someone doesn't tell you as much as it would on the town side. It's a town favoured role.

No. Wrong.

Namecopping does not say anything about the target's alignment. Even if it did, if he has an exceptional win condition he is not obligated to be truthful. Name cop is completely irrelevant and unrelated to alignment.

The only use it can have is catching someone lying about their name. I see zero reason for anyone to do this and I do not believe that students with an exceptional win condition will have a name that reflects that, given how we are encouraged to indirectly claim our name via the posting restriction.

Once again - you seem to take it as axiomatic that all rolenames are not indicative of alignment. But what if

some

rolenames are? Say, what if one mafia member has the role name "villain" or something similar? The assumption that this is false - and therefore that a name cop has absolutely zero utility - is baseless.

Read #208 again for why I feel that way. Its not even close to being a slip. Thank you for your Sathoris buddy claim though.

Of all of the votes onto and unvotes off of BBmolla, Sathoris' is the worst.

208 gives no proof, nor evidence, nor reasoning as to why the scum have to have similar names to the town.

Me being a namecop only helps the town if I'm town.

If I'm scum, I could take advantage of my role in two ways.

A. I could "check" my scum friend and lie about it to make him look better or explain some unexplained/scummy actions.
B. I could "check" a town member, and get a false character name that makes them look scummy.

Considering I'm town, this shouldn't be a problem, but considering my alignment is unconfirmable, I'm probably better off lynched. Unless someone is suspcious of someone's character, in that case I could check it and be lynched tomorrow, confirming the report.

Stop giving in and saying that you being lynched is the best course of action.

[Chair]

9. No, no, no, no, no. You also need to look at whether he is scum. If he is scum, it's much worse to lynch him tomorrow than today. Assuming BB is the scummiest player, we have to decide whether the tradeoff of extra info is worth lynching someone we think is less likely to be scum. For me, the extra info here really isn't that important - it's not exactly a massively powerful role - and so I think we should lynch him.

I agree that we need to look at his alignment irrespective of his role, but you're really exaggerating how much worse it is to lynch him tomorrow rather than today.

Let's do some math. Assume BB is scum. Lets also ignore any benefits that he gains from his one namecop, since they're likely to be minimal since role name doesn't necessarily reflect abilities.
Let's also, for simplicity, assume a 10:3 setup and one kill tonight.
If we lynch him today: that's a scumlynch today and it'll be 2:9 tomorrow.
If we lynch him tomorrow: it's a lynch at essentially 10:2 (since bb-scum wouldn't be a candidate) followed by a scumlynch tomorrow.
So the difference between today and tomorrow is the difference between 2/11 and 2/12 - that isn't even 2% better odds of hitting scum with the non-BB-targeting lynch. Why, then, is it such a tragedy if we lynch him tomorrow and not today?

(keep in mind: this is all assuming that BB is scum, which I don't think is the case)

[Chair]

prodvoid

I don't have any motivation to scumhunt when town's letting BB ride solely on his claim. Hmm.

so yeah read my post two posts ago
-implosion

[Chair]

@PARAMA:

Parama: would you say that you, as town, often wind up tunneling this early? And when I say tunneling, I don't mean having a strong scumread, I mean the extent of tunneling that you're doing with BB right now.

Third time asking.

[Chair]

chair, i believe that scum role names will not sound inherently scummy based on my own role name, those that have been revealed either directly or indirectly, and the fact that we are ENCOURAGED BY THE MODERATOR to indirectly share them by adhering to a posting restriction.

I guess I'd ask what you can possibly infer about scum rolenames from your rolename, but I guess that question can come once we claim rolenames.

As for encouragement by the mod to share our names - there's such a thing as a fakeclaim.

But I guess I can accept it for now... which still begs the question of what use a name cop would have. I really doubt that it was put in the game for 'lolz' - so yeah. it could be that there are false positives, or false negatives, or other nerfings - but right now, the best thing to do is probably ignore the claim and focus on other aspects of BB's play.

Which, again, convince me that he's town.

-implosion

[Chair]

Post 257 has unanswered questions to Haylen and Redpanda.

Anyway - reads with explanations will come tomorrow, but for now:

prime suspect right now is Parama. In short, his tunnel on BB. It gives him an active excuse to ignore others for today, and unwillingness to bulge does not indicate a town mindset.

I'm also wary of Haylen and TS. Misder's wary of Sathorsis, I still think he's town. So we'll figure that out later.

Unvote, Vote: Parama

[Chair]

A scum power role that is useless is also known by the name of "goon." Consider this.

Nah. Goon and mafioso are just different names for vanilla mafia, like townsperson or townie or innocent townsperson (etc, etc) are names for a vanilla townie.
-implosion

[Chair]

SO. Peregrinev, fishy, redpanda, sathorsis, twistedspoon, and bbmolla all haven't posted in over two days. Let's pick it up!

Formal case on Parama:

Neither of these have any merit if you don't back them up.
Also why exactly are you voting twisted? Just for the sake of wagonning? :/

yes now help me drive this mislynch

First quote: weak criticism of us for voting without a reason for the sake of wagoning. And yet, after we wagoned Parama with an

explicit

lack of a reason, he started calling us town! It's at best cognitive dissonance; when we wagon once, he needs to ask us about it; yet when we wagon even more blatantly a second time, he doesn't even ask about it and jumps to a conclusion that we're town! At worst, it's a contradiction.

Of course, this is just a relatively minor point; the main reason that we suspect Parama is his push on BBMolla.

I say I *may* change my mind, which doesn't mean I will, and I usually don't. There is *always* the possibility that I might, though.

Post 112 is a wall of attacks on BB.

Scum have a tendency of not being pro-town in their actions, regardless of how they look. Yes I am biased, but that's because I think you're scum. I'm looking for the scum motivation in your posts, not the town motivation.

Now, there are a few key things to note about the most important thing about Parama's BB push: the

way

that he's pushing.

He's tunneling to the point where, essentially, he's giving himself an excuse to push on BB no matter what happens - more than that, he

says

that he still has a chance of changing his mind when realistically, there's no way he's going to. This is why I asked him the question about selfmeta - if he winds up tunneling in this way, a way that basically gives him a "free pass" through day one, frequently as town, then I'd have no issue with it. But if he doesn't do it frequently, then it's scummy because of how it lets him continue this push no matter what happens.

In fact - BEYOND ALL OF THIS, look at post 307:

I don't have any motivation to scumhunt when town's letting BB ride solely on his claim. Hmm.

First of all, he's

actively giving himself a free pass through the day!

Second of all, perhaps even more importantly, he's ignoring and misrepresenting those that are calling BB town - some might be saying his claim makes him town, but that isn't the only reason we see him as town, and he isn't replying to our other reasons.

If he is town and doesn't have motivation to scumhunt, he SHOULD have motivation to convince

others

that BB is scum when people are calling him town! If he's scum, he has no need to do this. If he's town, he should be trying to convince everyone of his BB scumread, which he's apparently so convinced of himself.

The way in which he pushes on BB has enormous scum motivation - again, a free pass. And it has absolutely no town motivation. Sure, he's said x and y about why BB is scum - but if he's town, he should be concerned about the dissolving of the BB wagon. He shows no such dismay, not even a bit of caring.

Frankly, nothing in the case itself really jumps out at me as being especially scummy. I also don't find the case convincing. But the way in which he applies it is a scum method.

[Chair]

I always consider a vote on scum to be a town-move, especially one that doesn't try to over-justify it like yours did. I am sad to learn that you didn't believe in your vote when you made it.

So, not justifying a vote on twistedspoon merits questioning, but not justifying a vote on bbmolla merits a townread?

First of all, I believe you can read the wiki's newbie guide to tell you that associative tells before there are any flips are futile. Second of all, that's kind of special pleading. Saying that it's good that our vote wasn't "over-justified" doesn't mean that you can just let it go with 0 justification.

And is there a problem with that? Is it scummy to attack another player?

No. That particular line was for chronological purposes.

The whole thing turned around at his claim. The claim was what dissolved the wagon. That's the real shame here.

Well, I'm glad to see that you're trying to convince everyone that BB is scum, and I'm glad to see that you're so concerned that the wagon has dissolved! But wait... you haven't, and you aren't!

I have no motivation to scumhunt TODAY because I have already caught scum.

This LITERALLY completely ignores the point that I made. If you have no motivation to scumhunt, if you are town, and if you have completely caught scum, you should be hammering everyone to vote him.

Take us, for example. We've called BB town. You've done NOTHING to convince us otherwise. You've IGNORED our points on why he's town. And yet, you expect us to find him scummy simply by merit of YOU finding him scummy? It doesn't work like that; you can't give yourself a free pass to do

absolutely nothing

for the entire day and expect other people to accept that.

1. the town motivation is that I am 100% sure that BBMolla is scum. there are no if's and but's about it.
2. why did you vote BB in the first place if you don't find the case convincing? Just wondering. The case hasn't really changed since then so.

1: then convince me of it. Refute the reasons that we gave for BB being town.
2: to see what would happen.

You sidestepped essentially all of my major points... so yeah. You're scum. Sidestepped the point that you haven't been trying to actually get BB lynched; sidestepped the point that you've been giving yourself a free pass.

If you say BB is scum and say that you aren't going to be even paying attention to what anyone else says at all whatsoever and so on and so forth (you've said you have no motivation to scumhunt) then you should be directing your faculties towards convincing specific people - particularly people like us, who you stated some extent of a townread on - that BB is scum. You are not doing that. You voting but not pushing, and then saying that you aren't going to scumhunt, is not town-motivated behavior. Town want to lynch scum. You keep saying BB is scum. That's all well and good. But either continue to scumhunt, or PUSH on BB. Your lack of pushing others to vote BB is the biggest reason that you are scum.

-implosion

[Chair]

I say I *may* change my mind, which doesn't mean I will, and I usually don't. There is *always* the possibility that I might, though.

I am 100% sure that BBMolla is scum. there are no if's and but's about it.

When all of the people that are in hiding come out and post could they all vote Parama? We can do this.

[Chair]

Okay.

Unvote, Vote: Chair

Parama, get on this.

So you didn't read my case and are dismissing us as scum because we aren't accepting BBclaim as BBscum?

Shame. You're a townread for various reasons (similarity of play to sexy sedilla, talking about your rolename, the way that you're handling your PR).

[Chair]

Hey kanye.

You see what you're doing? trying to get people (importantly, specific people) to vote with you.
You see what Parama isn't doing? trying to get people (importantly, specific people) to vote with him.
Are you town? Do town, when they think (in Parama's case: 100% sure) they are right, try to get people to vote with them? Is parama town?

[Chair]

By the way, you can just assume that our posts are coming from me right now. Misder's been sick and bogged down with work a bit, and I keep forgetting to sign posts.

-implosion

[Chair]

I'm not sure how I feel about BBmolla anymore, actually. Parama and Fishy are my two strongest town reads, so my decision is based on their interactions with you and your response to the BBmolla claim, regardless of his alignment.

Hey kanye.

You see what you're doing? trying to get people (importantly, specific people) to vote with you.
You see what Parama isn't doing? trying to get people (importantly, specific people) to vote with him.
Are you town? Do town, when they think (in Parama's case: 100% sure) they are right, try to get people to vote with them? Is parama town?

[Chair]

Do not fool yourself into thinking you can call the scumteam, especially before anyone has flipped scum. Don't bother with trying to draw connections between players until one of them is dead. It's tempting! but futile.

[Chair]

It's a refutation of the first half of your reason for voting me as outlined in 332, which was essentially drawing on associative tells.

It also applies to Parama and how he's taking BBscum as a given and using it to locate BB's scumbuddies (see: his Johhog fos).

[Chair]

I will give you a hint: this has changed SINCE his claim.

"Always" in the first quote kind of implied that you, as a player,

always

have a chance of changing your mind, no matter the circumstances.
"no ifs ands or buts about it" in the second quote implied that you, in this game, are 100% sure BB is scum and will

never

change your mind.
So in essence, you're implying that one little claim changed the entire way that you play as a player? Before, you always had a chance of changing your mind; now, you have an exception to the rule?

-implosion

[Chair]

Parama, what's your read on us right now?

No... his point was that I was tunneling.

No. The point of the paragraph you quoted was that in tunneling and in saying that you were 100% certain, you gave yourself a free pass through the day.

That may be what he thinks, but you cannot deny that the wagon dissolved after the claim, and because of it.

Cool. It dissolved when he claimed. So why haven't you made any effort to reconstruct the wagon?

I will lynch BB, and when he flips scum, I will use association tells to find his buddies. I've already got some of them association tells if you haven't noticed.

Do not fool yourself into thinking you can call the scumteam, especially before anyone has flipped scum. Don't bother with trying to draw connections between players until one of them is dead. It's tempting! but futile.

[Chair]

What about two roles who contradict each other?

Assuming that you mean your own role and BBmolla's: to what extent to they contradict each other? Is it even

remotely

possible for your role and BB's role to both exist as town-aligned roles?

[Chair]

Does your role contradict the existence of a name cop at all, or just the existence of a town name cop?

[Chair]

Unvote

parama is town
bb is also probably town
it's probably a "defy the meta" type move if camn put in both their roles as town

We need to reassess this...

[Chair]

Occam's razor doesn't apply. It doesn't make sense for paramascum to claim like this, it doesn't make sense for bbscum to have been willing to be lynched for the entire day.

We need to look elsewhere...

VOTE: Twistedspoon

[Chair]

We're also on the chart. Game name makes sense now; it's about temperaments, lol.

I've been kind of swamped. I'm not sure why I think Twistedspoon is scum, but I do. I'll try to figure it out later.

-implosion

[Chair]

fine.
Chair is Champion.

Yep.

Because he was a middle-of-the-road read going into night.
Why didn't you ask that when I first stated that I'd flavorcopped Chair?

Frankly, we were. I was basically split in the same way that I think you're claiming to have been, between bb's willingness to be lynched and his counterclaiming you. To say that we were fencesitting or middle-of-the-road near the end of the day would be appropriate.

Parama could have counterclaimed the guy who was likely going to be lynched (as scum), but he probably wouldn't have. So, going back to the end of yesterday:

VOTE: Twistedspoon
Still not entirely sure why I think he's scum, but hey, lets see where this wagon takes us. It could be an interesting ride.

[Chair]

Gut feeling is a legit reason.

Note: these are going to be biased towards TS being scum, obviously.

My quick read on TS

Post #28 Iso #1
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p3392353

Post #37 Iso #2
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p3392617

Post #41 Iso #3
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p3392660

If you take a look at his first three posts, you'll see that his logic is pretty off. First, he claims that there shouldn't be conflict over RVS, yet he is engaging over a conflict in RVS, and anyone that has played in MS has seen conflict in RVS. Then he states that his RVS isn't truly RVS after he states that there shouldn't be conflict in RVS. This is scummy. Only scum would try and hide instead of actually engaging in some sort of conflict, especially if the RVS isn't supposedly truly RVS. Why would town not truly RVS and then claim that conflict made from that post is illegitimate?

Post 123 Iso 5
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p3397221

Most of this post is just him basically taking everyone else's posts and agreeing with them.

Post 372 Iso 13
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p3423731

He now decides that he is going to lynch BB or Parama, solely on the fact of the power role claims. Yet earlier, Post 184 Iso 11, he states that one shouldn't base votes off of claims.

He also stops pushing for a Zang lynch from this point.

Also, by focusing solely on the claims, it gives TS an excuse to lynch town without feeling pressured.

Post 388 Iso 17
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p3423897

Previously (Post 181 Iso 10), he stated that name cop is useless. Then in this post, he states that it is broken.

This puts him in a double bind: either he's not paying attention to the game and he's scum or he's switching viewpoints in order to get both BB and Parama lynched Day1 Day2 respectively and he's scum.

Post 439 Iso 25
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p3428984

This post is possibly the biggest reason why TS is scum.

His hammer is horrible. He tries way too hard to make himself look town. He talks about "confirmed town" and the parenthesis part, trying to sound town when it really was unnecessary. Additionally, TS does some major buddying in Iso 16 and 18 with BB. Yet he never truly attempts to get another wagon going, which he would have if he was so certain that BB was town (voting Parama doesn't count as trying), so he knew that BB was going to be one of the wagons.


Post 456 Iso 28
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p3434568

Doesn't make sense in terms of what was happening Day 1. He agreed with the possibility with 2 cops. His only reason for lynching parama was because he thought BB was more townish and two cops is broken.

Doesn't actually do analysis on parama; his lynch is only based on BB.

Post 471 Iso 31
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p3436620

Provides the reason after being questioned? This doesn't make sense at all honestly. Let's change mindsets and not tell anyone till I look scummy? Nope, don't see it.

Also, pushes a chair wagon, yet doesn't actually start it.

Additionally, gut is good.

He even said earlier in Post 179 Iso 8 that town can use gut as a reason. This moots all his arguments about not providing analysis for a lynch vote.

His push on the chair wagon is also really slow to be town. He never questioned our "sheeping" with parama day 1 and giving no reason. Only when he is being under attack does he bring arguments up about weak reasoning. This is really key. Wagon is on him and now he he's looking for a way out.

-Misder

[Chair]

My argument on that point was that:
1) If you believed that BBmolla was town
2) If you are town

You would have pushed way harder for another lynch. Yet you allowed the BB bandwagon to stay. You focused only on the claims and stopped pushing your strongest fos (Zang). Then even though you state that you would rather have BBmolla alive instead of Parama, you don't actually place a vote, or do anything about the BB bandwagon.

[Chair]

implosion told me that he's too bogged down in his other games to help me enough, so it's pretty much going to be me. Sucks cause I still have tons of work, but I'll manage I hope.

TS claim just fucks with my mind, esp. fishy not being able to confirm. Either RB or TS lying. I don't think I'm going to give TS the benefit of the doubt when he hasn't touched my analysis, except one part which, I'll agree, it was one of the weaker arguments. I'm sad that that's the only thing addressed though- which makes me think that he wants to bs it through this day.

Also, more analysis needs to be made. I think we're really slacking off here.

@TS- can you explain why you're not scum by defending your posts? Also, reads (past the parama scum)? Also, if you want to make analysis on parama being scum, that would be nice, cause all I'm seeing right now is that BB flips town --> parama is scum, which really isn't that legitimate tbh.

[Chair]

The more I look at it, the more scummy TS seems tbh. I want him to get away by not doing any work (on my analysis/analysis on others).

@RedPanda do you think scum would counterclaim twice in a row on day 1 and day 2?

@kanye it seems like there's a difference as to how youre addressing the BB lynch and the TS lynch. i might have missed it, but is there a reason for this? why does TS claim seem town yet BB lynch shouldn't have depended on his claim?

Lurc lynch would be stupid.

Also, implosion told me that he feels Haylen is scummy. I haven't look much into it, but might as well tell everyone. If anyone wants to take a look at that, that would be cool.

-Misder

[Chair]

Lurconis should claim his result if it's something useful. Obviously.

VOTE: Haylen

-implosion

[Chair]

At least one of Chair/Zang is scum.

Reason?

[Chair]

psychiatrist with one kill a night is a clever scumclaim?

Personally, I think a name cop would benefit scum a lot more than it would town.

BBmolla, your SUPERVISOR and Town Name Cop, has been lynched.

So, yeah. There's that theory down the drain. And fishy is right in that the way parama claimed makes him town - no scum in their right mind would counterclaim a name cop (a somewhat scummy role to begin with to be sure) if they knew that name cop was going to be lynched and could probably lynch them without counterclaiming.

Mafia trackers and watchers exist for the purpose of finding power roles; they aren't really equatable to name cops in a game where we've seen that names have nothing to do with roles.

-implosion

[Chair]

i mean... sure, psychiatrist without a serial killer is possible.

But a much simpler explanation is that psychiatrist is a claim which lets haylen stay in the game with the excuse "oh, i haven't found the serial killer yet, but i will tomorrow night!"

[Chair]

[...]
Are both docs?
[...]

Rolefishing is not good, especially protective roles.

We're still set on a Haylen scum.

-Misder

[Chair]

Ok, I see now that scum *could* have a tracker/watcher. Although, compared to the number of town versions, it's less than a percent or two.

I'd like some claim clarification. RedPanda is claiming Healer, and Haylen is claiming Protector. Are both docs? Haylen gave night targets and sort of why. And why is there suddenly SK speculation?

Unvote.

@Chair- Please clarify how asking for clarification from the claimed HEALER and claimed PROTECTOR/PSYCHIATRIST is rolefishing?

It's pretty unambiguously clear at this point that role names have no connection to roles, unless you can come up with some logic to connect inventor to roleblocker and supervisor to name cop.

Psychiatrist.

Fixed.

With regards to haylen's speculation of a serial killer without a kill: consider the balance implication of such a role. Sure, jungle republic has a kill-less faction, but:
-that faction is larger and, iirc, wins in 1v1 endgames with werewolves.
-jungle republic is an open setup
-that faction contains more than one person.

Now, if there is a serial killer, one of three things is true. Either they do have a kill, they do not have a kill, or they have a kill which has a nonstandard mechanic (arsonist, for example). Seeing as this game has shown no evidence of nonstandard mechanics, I'd say it's safe to eliminate option 3.

Consider the implications of a serial killer with a kill: in a game with two town watchers and at least one mafia roleblocker (i have speculations in my head that there are two) their kill could be thwarted or they could be ousted in

three to four separate ways per kill.

That would not be balanced... at ALL. If the mafia block them after seeing multiple kills on an earlier night, they'd identify and kill the SK. Even if they were bulletproof, the scum would be able to push on them during the day.

Consider the implications of a serial killer without a kill: they're forced to stand on the thin line of town enough to avoid lynches but scummy enough to avoid nightkills,

without even getting to kill anyone.

This means that they would have to outlast

ELEVEN PEOPLE

to get to the final two. Without being able to kill anyone on their own. And if the mafia faction still has a majority (even 2 alive) by the time that it's endgame, they're doomed.

There is no way that a serial killer in this setup is balanced. I suppose a psychiatrist could be in the setup to give them a "way out" - but it would still be pretty damn cruel since the psychiatrist could die early and leave the SK stranded and essentially doomed.

-implosion

[Chair]

Uh, I dont think there's an SK anymore. Check out the ordinary townpersons wincon on the example role PM's in the first post. The win condition wouldn't make sense because we'd win even if an SK was still alive and all mafia were dead.

3 possibilities.

1: Haylen town with a SK. i've explained why this is unlikely; haylen agrees.
2: Haylen town without a SK. Psychiatrist without a serial killer would be on the level of miller without a cop - sure, it's possible but think of it this way. Fishy and peregrine unvoted haylen after her claim; either they misunderstood the claim, or they gave her town credit for the claim. Giving haylen town credit for haylen's claim would be like giving a miller town credit for claiming miller in a setup where there is explicit evidence against there being a cop in the setup.
3: Haylen scum. The scum motivation for claiming psychiatrist in a situation like this is perfectly clear; it's a risky claim. Probably not a particularly well-thought-out claim, but a claim that, as I said earlier, gives haylen the option of pushing to leave her alive to find the SK. She hasn't gone with that option, most likely because I called it out as a possibility before she did.

Saying that Haylen's claim makes haylen any more town than Haylen was pre-claim is just wrong, unless you have some reason to think that the way she claimed was townish.
Haylen was scummy pre-claim.
Ergo, Haylen is still scummy; in fact, I find that the claim makes her scummier.

Votes can go back on any time.

-implosion

[Chair]

I'm gathering I'm the only person who sees Chair's attack as being opportunistic?

so, yeah, we were voting you before you claimed.

-implosion

[Chair]

...I hope the SK throws you under a bus...

SKs generally don't have any allies.

Would you lynch a town cop in a game that was completely filled with SKs?

If i thought they were scummy, yes; this isn't relevant to this game as we think you're scummy regardless of your claim, as i stated.

[Chair]

Two of the same role isn't a nonstandard mechanic?

Frankly, it probably used to be, but site meta has changed. Of recent completed large normals, i can think of one that had two hiders, one that had two cops...etc. I can also remember a mini normal that had a tracker and a 1-shot tracker. Some mods put in multiple of a role specifically to challenge meta (like shanba in frogs mafia which had two jailkeepers). If it appears in normals, it really isn't nonstandard.
-implosion

[Chair]

Haylen's claim is oh so convincing and I will be extremely surprised if she's scum. I mean, we possibly have both two watchers and two flavour cops with different names. camn is clearly trying to mess with us and a Psychiatrist without a SK sounds likely.

Seriously. No. Psychiatrist without a SK does NOT sound likely. What motivation would there be to do that. What reason is there that Haylen couldn't just be scum fakeclaiming psychiatrist to invoke setup speculation when she was already scummy.

[Chair]

There's a difference between a large game and a mini and although there have been some mini games with two of the same role, it isn't that common. Especially two of the same role twice. It's at least as common as an arsonist or other nonstandard SK type role.

Point taken, i guess. I wouldn't say it's more common than nonstandard serial killers, and either way, I don't believe the claim.

[Chair]

-implosion on both of those, by the way.

[Chair]

WHYYWE*EOG K,O^LY
N _k(y
{^85I
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o5yk 'J95YP{o^LU}:
aU0697%o&y

Parama, Your post makes no sence.

Pure genius.

Dear Parama,

you appear to be broken. In your broken state, you seem to have forgotten that Haylen's claim and the ensuing argument cemented her alignment as scum. In forgetting this, you seem to have seen one post and voted someone who may or may not be scum (Johhog) instead of someone who is near certainly scum (Haylen). Once you've fixed yourself, I'd appreciate if you voted Haylen.

Sincerely,

-implosion

[Chair]

Basically, speculation on how camn made the setup is pretty useless. camn's not going to make the game that broken. at least I hope. We don't even have enough info even if we wanted to lynch based on temperaments.

More people on the Haylen bandwagon.

-Misder

[Chair]

I'm unsure about the case on Johhog. The biggest question in my mind right now is: why is lurconis still alive? he claimed watcher a day or two ago, and he hasn't died for some reason, and he isn't being roleblocked either. Why would scum leave him alive?

-implosion

[Chair]

Parma flip gives us so much more information at this point especially since if we are wrong we are going into Lylo.

Yeah, no.

Parama might remember newbie 1034 (considering he modded it). Late day one, some random townie made a list of people from the most to the least info that would be gained from their lynch.

Guess who was on the bottom of the list! Both scum.

So ask yourself. Do towns win games of mafia by creating more information when there's already 33 pages of it, or do they win games of mafia by killing off all of the mafia?

Chair is town for #788

Why?

-implosion

[Chair]

As far as I can tell, there's two possible explanations for lurc not dying. Either scum are wifoming, or he's scum. And frankly, there's no reason that the scum would wifom and kill other people when he's a watcher who could catch other kills...

Frankly, unless anyone has a better explanation, lurc is probably scum.

-implosion

[Chair]

VOTE: Lurconis

[Chair]

Seriously, no one finds it weird that lurc has claimed watcher, and still not dead yet?

Double bind:
Either
1: He's town watcher
A. Scum thinks that there are more important people to kill
B. Scum is WIFOMing

2: He's scum watcher

1A: The least possible scenario- he claimed watcher, and he's already proven that he is a watcher.
2B: Also really unlikely-
1) scum hasn't been pushing his lynch (we're the only ones to actually bring it up)
2) scum is risking SOOOO much by leaving a town watcher alive for 2 nights to find scum.

2: The only logical scenario.

Also FOS: PeregrineV
Wishy-washyness during the TS bandwagon and just uneasiness after reading his iso (i can go more specifics when I'm not in class)

Johhog is town.
RedPanda is town.

-Misder

[Chair]

Lurconis. Report. Now.

It's probably lylo.

[Chair]

Lurconis is almost guaranteed to be scum. Here's why.

Lurconis claimed watcher in post 504. This was way back near the beginning of day two.

His claimed targets: redpanda, then johhog, then redpanda, then peregrinev. The only visit he claims to have seen was parama visiting johhog.

So, let's put ourselves in a scum state of mind with lurconis as town. There's a flipped watcher and a claimed second watcher - this

strongly

suggests that there are no protective roles. So, they should kill him, right?

But they don't. They leave him alive for three days, letting him get results, and then

on the third night (last night) block him

(assuming no other explanation pops up). Speaking of which, we should massclaim. I'd propose popcorn starting with either parama or lurconis deciding who to claim first. Only peregrine, zang, and us are left to claim.

Essentially, the case on lurconis is that the scum would have absolutely NO reason to treat him how he has been treated if he is real. He was left alive for three straight nights, and only blocked on one of them. What's more, he watched redpanda on two out of the first three nights, and then, on the night when he dies, lurconis conveniently didn't watch redpanda.

Lurconis, please give in-depth reasons for why you watched all of the people that you watched.

-implosion

[Chair]

Champion, townsperson

popcorn to Zang.

[Chair]

Still think lurc is scum. His scumbuddy assuming he has one is frankly up in the air.

[Chair]

chair does your case have any other basis besides "he claimed watcher and he's still alive, therefore he must be scum?"

Honestly, not really. But I see that as enough to make him scum, because of the nature of the role of watcher.

[Chair]

Lurconis/Parama aren't a scumteam. It would be too risky for them to put all their eggs in one basket of double-roles. Lurconis is still probably scum, but Parama is probably town and won't vote him.

Which is why this is a conundrum for me. I'm typing this knowing that Parama will vote in a few minutes,

but I'm not going to post it until after his vote because I want to see who he'll vote.

SCREW THIS IT'S BEEN TWO MINUTES

We have a name cop, a watcher, and a psychiatrist... another claimed name cop... and two other roles that can track. The name cops and the psychiatrist are all, in a way, "false positives" in that they have visits that don't do anything. There's (two watchers? watcher + tracker?) that are able to find them. Two watchers is unlikely because lurc is still alive. So meh. Lurc/peregrinev is my best guess for scum right now. But parama is going to vote us, so it doesn't matter.

I'll post this after parama votes so...

*shrug*. Again, want to see who he's going to vote.

-implosion

[Chair]

but that doesn't make sense with parama calling us scum for both scum to call us town...

[Chair]

*sigh*

[Chair]

lurc/parama aren't scum, lurc/zang aren't scum because not enough town power. parama/peregrine aren't scum because tracker + two watchers with two scum visiting roles is semi-ridiculous. Probably.

Which leaves: lurc/peregrine, zang/peregrine, zang/parama.

Meh. This setup is on drugs.

[Chair]

I don't know.

I can't figure out anyone that makes sense as scum with lurc.

How the fuck were all five of us on the ts lynch?

i kind of want to vote zang

i hate this game right now.

[Chair]

Misder and I will both be busy (debate tournament) from tomorrow to saturday evening. I can probably post from school, and possibly from the hotel on friday night. Definitely won't be able to post on Saturday until around 6 our time (EST).

[Chair]

i DON'T KNOW

zang i guess? :\