camn's temperamental - Mini 1232 - GAME OVER

[Sathoris]

/confirm

[Sathoris]

Looks like I'll have to rely on the results of the theta group to determine my strategy.

Kudos if you get the reference.

1. Played about 10 games on MS in an 11 month period. Still play on a different forum with a similar tempo. Altogether I'd say I played about 40 games.
2. Out the scum. Even if you got redirected it's better to know before you get your target lynched without using your cop result.

I'll have to run the numbers and see where my vote has the best impact.

I think it's quite likely that scum confirm later on average.

Why do you think that?

[Sathoris]

@Sath: as explained above, since scum have daytalk during the confirmation stage it is to their advantage to have a longer confirmation stage. I imagine that occasionally this leads scum to confirm later than they otherwise would.

How do you know scum can daytalk dying the confirmation stage? I read Camn's example role PM carefully: "During the NIGHT cycle ONLY, you may talk with your fellow Mafia". Confirmation stage isn't a night cycle.

[Sathoris]

VOTE: sathoris for being one of the last to confirm and then in post 32 saying he would run the numbers to figure out who to vote and then posting again 40 minutes later and not voting.

'Running the numbers' didn't mean what you thought it did.

Why would you do this? I mean, you're so sold on me being scum, why could you possibly change your mind on me?

Trying to paint Parama as a flip-flopper for when he unvotes you? Not the best defence in the book.

I see we're shifting towards BB and Lurc. I too found Parama's post about BB very effective. A tad too damning in my eyes, but to each his own. When I saw the first votecount I immediatly thought there was scum on the Fishy train. BB must've thought the same and unvoted in the hope of not showing up in a damning place in VC analysis.

Concerning Lurc, far too much attention on the daytalk bit. Looks like scum trying to transform his weak attack in to a genuine suspicion.

One must die, but which. . .

@Lurc, even if my post was about RVS and I didn't place my vote. What's your basis to make it voteworthy?
@BBmola What was the point of your last post? People change reads all the time, especially in day one.

[Sathoris]

That doesn't clearly show BB thought you were scum.

@Fish Why is it important to you that BB thought you were scum?

[Sathoris]

Scummy =/= scum

[Sathoris]

Heading to work meeting right now, but will be back later to address stuff.

Not playing lurkscum again are you?

[Sathoris]

@Sathoris can you explain what you did mean by "running the numbers"?

Don't answer my question with a new question, my answer should have no impact on your answer of my question. I'll answer when you go first.

Sathoris: Could you explain what was effective about Parama's case on me?

Like I said earlier you unvoting Fishy when he's on L-2 for no good reason. You wanted to get off that wagon so you won't appear in a scummy position on the VCA if we did lynch fishy and he turned out town. The manner of posting I disagree with, but you're caught in an argument with Parama now. So his post was effective.

you use a bet on paramas mother's life which i think is really scummy. what did you expect him to reply? hes obviously not going to bet on it.

I'm just going to say that this is godawful. The mother thing was just a joke and evidently poor wording if you all can't take it. Major scumpoints to you for painting that as 'really scummy'.

Scum can't tunnel - they know the answer.

Scum can certainly tunnel and appear townish that way.

---

My approach deems that BBmola is the best lynch at the moment, but no need to rush things. We need to make this decisions carefully and weigh all the odds.

[Sathoris]

That's weak reasoning. We were still in the RVS stage so any vote I'd place wouldn't get a second look. Running the numbers didn't mean using a rng to vote for someone as RVS, which I sometimes do. But to effectivly calculate which lynch would maximize the overall good of the game.

You apparently didn't think I was going to use RNG, which means you thought I was going to place a calculated vote. . . Inside the RVS? Yet you voted for me outside the RVS for what? Taking too long a time to place a calculated vote?

---

Your latest postings only reinforce my current take on you BBmolla. Altering other people's sentences about you to redirect onto someone you suspect. Your joindate suggest these (tiny on their own) scumtells are genuine. But that's dismissable in court as it were.

[Sathoris]

You are missing the point. You contradicted yourself by calling him scum but then implying that he is town.

Please elaborate, BB never implied Parama is town.
If you're talking about the tunneling = town bit. Then please explain to me why you think only town tunnel.

Though if I'm so convinced in my mind that you're scum, it implies that I am legitimately scumhunting, which in turn implies I'm town. But you say I'm scum. So that term couldn't possibly apply to me, right? If I'm scum, I would be absolutely sure you were town, right? Why would I have to convince myself that you're scum, if I knew objectively that it wasn't true? Your train of logic only makes sense if you think I'm town, which you don't.

WIFOM, dismissable.

[Sathoris]

That just wasn't a good argument. I won't let arguments like that be presented to lynch BBmolla even if he is the correct lynch.

[Sathoris]

He said this-

it's you being so convinced I'm scum in your mind

I reiterate. Because that's no explanation.

[Sathoris]

He said this-

it's you being so convinced I'm scum in your mind

I reiterate. Because that's no explanation.

As Parama said, that quote implies that he thought parama was scumhunting and so town but he says that he thinks that parama is scum.

Let me get this out in the open. Terms like tunneling and scumhunting aren't only town things. Scum can easily make people belief they're scumhunting because every town player makes 'scumtells'. With a third party involved the mafia need to be scumhunting aswell.

Besides I still don't think that quote implied he thought Parama was scumhunting. To me it seemed like he just meant Parama has made up his mind about BBmolla and there's nothing he can do to change his mind.

I reckon I would do the same if I were in that situation. Arguing with someone who tells you to get sexually assaulted in a dark alley is something I won't jump at.

But let's agree to disagree, I don't sense any intentional misrep.

I still think BBmolla or fishy is a safe lynch. Lurc is edging closer depending on his answer to one of my earlier posts.

[Sathoris]

We've seemed to slow down.

VOTE: BBMolla

Discuss.

[Sathoris]

I still think BBmolla or fishy is a safe lynch. Lurc is edging closer depending on his answer to one of my earlier posts.

What makes me a good (or "safe") lynch?

More safe than good. In an earlier quote here you referenced that the opening post of the mod told scum to stop daytalking. When in fact 'stop talking out of class' meant that people should start to abide by their role 'restriction'. I can't distinguish any such restriction in you and the fact that you didn't get that modquote makes me think you're mafia without a PM instructing you to talk in a way.

@Sathoris - Why would you think I assumed you meant RNG. Running the numbers is a common phrase people say when they are going to work something out. I took you saying that as meaning you thought you found something and were going to work it out before placing your vote. When you didn't vote it seemed like scum trying to avoid placing a vote while appearing to scum hunt.

Please read my earlier post again. Especially the 2nd paragraph and redo your post. This post is just a copy of the other one I already replied to with questions.

You're fast becoming my front runner!

[Sathoris]

I'm willing to let BBMolla live through the day if he 'investigates' Fishy and presents us with a name for his character.

[Sathoris]

Name cop seems useless as a mafiarole. He could of course be faking the true nature of his ability, he could be a name + role cop. But seeing as a name cop can verify townies and not help the mafia in any way I trust his claim. If it's a fake one, then well done and I'll congratulate you after the game.

UNVOTE: BBMolla

Now, Lurc or Fishy. . . Let's see how they respond first.

[Sathoris]

We don't know that scum have scummy names, or that townies don't have scummy names. It's easily possible that a name cop could help scum - if PRs have PR-ish names. From what we know of the game, name cop could be helpful for scum, town, both or neither. Why do you think a name cop would help town identify scum? Why don't you think it would help scum identify PRs? These both seem massive leaps to me. Unless, I suppose, you are scum with a scummy rolename.

I didn't say a namecop helped town identify scum. I said it helped town verify townies. (i.e. BBMolla calls you 'the entertainer' and you verify by saying that's indeed your name) Of course a certain amount of trust must always be present, but the mafia won't learn anything helpful. I can only guess at this stage, but if the role is truly alive and well then scum must have somewhat scummy sounding names or else the ability is useless.

Why do you think 'stop talking out of class' meant that? For me, the natural interpretation was 'stop talking elsewhere'. When I wrote about it I hadn't thought of the interpretation you put on it, but looking at it now it still seems much less likely. Regardless, my guess would be that scum also have something in their PM instructing them to talk in a way - I can't see why that would be a town only thing. Also, it seems a massive stretch to say 'you don't look like you are obeying any of the millions of possible post restrictions on your style'. Altogether this seems like an extremely weak reason to call me scum.

Because Camn announced before the game started that he would be introducing 'post restrictions' that you could follow to brighten the game. I'm trying to stick to mine and you obviously have no idea what I'm talking about. Which means I don't think you got one and you're not town.

And you say scum would also have something in their PM, which means everyone heard about the 'restriction'. Are you just not following yours?

Stop talking out of class clearly was meant for people to get into character for the game. 'Stop talking out of class' is a weird way to tell scum to stop talking. Which they know because the day started. And you would normally just say: Scum stop talking.

[Sathoris]

Why do you assume that? To me, class seems to be the game thread and so anybody talking out of class is talking out of the thread. Especially since the post restrictions aren't mandatory so the mod wouldn't need to order the town to use their restriction.

Mod

can you clarify what you meant when you said “For anyone talking out of class: stop now!” ?

I suppose, I never read the first post all that well and only now see the Failed the exam header. It is a bit confusing, but I remain convinced Fishy has no post 'restriction'. Perhaps my method proves to be unfounded, but his latest reply seals it for me.

He doesn't have a post restriction and arguing that scum also get a post 'restriction' to downplay the idea that no post 'restriction' is scum

[Sathoris]

To be clear: do you think that BB's claim makes him more likely town than before? If so, why don't you think name cop is a likely scum role?

Yes, a name cop is benefecial to the town as it can confirm other townies and perhaps find the unsavouray names of scum. I already it's less likely to be a scum role (unless he lies about the full power of his role) because a name of someone doesn't tell you as much as it would on the town side. It's a town favoured role.

Living an extra day benefits you massively if the town mislynches today - because your partners have one less day to survive.

Mislynch on the first day doesn't benefit the mafia massively. It happens all the time. Mafia getting anxious (you) about getting on the chopping block like a quicklynch of a claimed cop variant more than anything.

VOTE: Fishy

[Sathoris]

Why do you think I'm mafia getting anxious about being on the chopping block? Where have I said I want a quicklynch?

Maybe quicklynch wasn't the correct term, but you still want BBMolla lynched instead of providing an alternative. Same outcome.

Did you read the other bit of my 195? Do you have any response? I think it makes it fairly clear that your other point against me is crap.

Fair enough my original point about the stop talking out of class turned out false, but in the ongoing argument my point remained. I don't think you have a special post restriction and you tried to hide that by suggesting scum also get a restriction.

I'll give you a comprimise though since no one else shares my opinion and I won't get you lynched only on my hunch. It is as a matter of fact a glorified hunch. But I've learned to stick to my hunches more often. Anyway I still want BBMolla to check you out tonight and find out your name. BBMolla may be scum or town, but this way he still works toward the town agenda. He lies about your name and you get lynched, he'll be next.
UNVOTE: Fishy

---

Lurc, I still want you to answer the 2nd paragraph of this post.

[Sathoris]

No. Wrong.

So you know the mafia have innocent sounding names then?

I'm not saying we should ignore BBmolla and let him live happily ever after, I just want him to use his ability one night on someone we agree on. If we can't agree on this matter and you want him dead then I'll play along, as long as the greater good is served.

[Sathoris]

Read #208 again for why I feel that way. Its not even close to being a slip. Thank you for your Sathoris buddy claim though.

Of all of the votes onto and unvotes off of BBmolla, Sathoris' is the worst.

I disagree, my vote caused BBMolla to claim and advance the discussion. I'm willing to trust that claim and test it out. Obviously the majority doesn't yet agree with you so why is my unvote a bad thing? I won't let my vote reach a lynch if we all aren't clear about it.

And you keep referencing 208, but you keep dismissing the fact about potential scum names, or the confirmation aspect of the namecop. It's not a great role no, but it's not useless.

Oh #6 of 208 is just plain wrong, yet you emphasis it as if it's your major point. You do know you first brought up your exceptional win condition when talking to Lurconis here. Why are shifting it to make it look like BBMolla has an exceptional win condition?

[Sathoris]

You're right that knowing someone's restriction doesn't mean anything about his rolename or ability. And you may be right that your rolename has nothing to do you with your PR. But you cannot confirm or deny that your rolename has nothing to do with your allignement unless you know that the scum name is as innocent sounding as the town names are.

Unless we know that I think it's worth the risk to leave BBmolla alive for one night to see what he can give us.

[Sathoris]

1. Our posting restriction is based on our role name.
2. Role powers are unrelated to our role name.
3. Some of our posting restrictions should be very obvious to other at this point.
4. Does that not imply, then, that given how we are encouraged to indirectly divulge this information that it should be not provide any benefit to either faction?
5. Given that,

how is a role name cop useful for either town or exceptional alignments?

6. HOW DOES LEAVING AN EXCEPTIONAL WIN CONDITION NAME COP ALIVE PROVIDE ANY BENEFIT TO TOWN?

1. Only slightly in my case. I feel mine is pretty difficult and the way I'm working it you wouldn't as easily call mine as you would yours, but it stands.
2. Plausible
3. No argument there
4. You're right. Someone's posting restriction won't reveal anything, but look back to my discussion with fishy about alignements.
5. You haven't once mentioned the relation of names to alignement. Which is precisely what the namecop is meant for. Unless we have a real cop who finds out people's allignement the rolecop could be this themed version of our regular cop. Think of a flavour cop, it's essentially the same.

But the big mystery is we don't know how the mafia are called. You seem deadset on the namecop being useless so I must assume you know the mafia have innocent sounding names (comment on this please)

6. I've reread the thread and I haven't found any shred of evidence that BBMolla has an exceptional win condition. The only time it is mentioned (in my link) is when you commented on Lurconis who justified his vote on me by using my restriction. You then (shrewdly if I might add) suggested what you did about him having an exceptional win condition.

Not BBmolla

. So why are you pinning the exceptional win condition on BBmolla?

You're right that knowing someone's restriction doesn't mean anything about his rolename or ability. And you may be right that your rolename has nothing to do you with your PR. But you cannot confirm or deny that your rolename has nothing to do with your allignement unless you know that the scum name is as innocent sounding as the town names are.

Why have you not pushed for a mass name claim then if you believe it will out scum?

Isn't it obvious. People lie. What stops scum from claiming something that fits their current posting style. Most are ambigious enough to pull it off. No we need the namecop to investigate them so they can't lie.

[Sathoris]

My stance until now has been that BBmolla has an exceptional win condition. Regardless of my opinion, I worded that as such due to people saying "Well sure he might have an exceptional win condition but we can make him work for us!" I can only assume that you also believed he had an exceptional win condition due to you placing him in a position to where he had to claim.

You have no basis for saying BBMolla has an exceptional win condition, so why present it huge and bolded as fact in #208. Exceptional win condition is just fancy talk for scum win con, which just means you think he's scum. Which is fair enough, as you said I did put him on L-1 too. But don't present it as reason to lynch him. The matter of fact is:

He acted scummy and it got him to claim. I still think he's scummy too. He may well be scum, but I want to use his ability at least once to see what we get. We don't know enough to dismiss it as useless. It might be our only cop to find mafia in this themed game. I'm not willing to take the risk and lynch him.

He's acting more pro-town now saying the safest way would be to lynch him. I'm not sure he's appealing to any side in the debate because I don't think it will change anybody's mind. So we have a choice. I suggest people express their opinion about him in their next post.
1) Test his namecop on someone scummy and lynch someone else, or
2) Lynch him today and see what tomorrow brings.

Isn't it obvious. People lie. What stops scum from claiming something that fits their current posting style. Most are ambigious enough to pull it off. No we need the namecop to investigate them so they can't lie.

Yes, so if we plan to use the name cop to catch scum lying, then you need to force them to lie about their name in the first place. This is the only situation in which I feel a name cop will be able to give us any information that relates to alignment, and only if he is town.

We only force them to lie about their name if their name is not townish. If it is then the namecop is useless, which leads me to wonder why BB wouldn't just be a VT then. Or BB is lying about what else he can do and he's scum.

It just comes down to this: are you willing to lynch a cop variant who acted summy?

[Sathoris]

Just because we have two different philosphies doesn't make one of us scum and the other town, Kanye. Stop trying to make me your adversary. Convince me of your take on things as you have been instructed to and I shall listen. All I want is to look at every option we have. Present my case to as many people that want to listen and try to work towards an outcome that benefits the majority.

I wish to do so without making enemies or resort to nasty tactics. I consider myself a tactful person so I view our issues from the perspective of others, please do the same.

And PV, I shan't do thou bidding when it's a useless task on D1. Ask me again a few days later if I'm still alive.

[Sathoris]

A certain amount of good faith has to be present of course, but BBmolla's name is that of a profession. As is mine. I remain engulfed in the idea that scum have not so innocent sounding names. They may well have fake claims, but I believe the namecop can still identify their true nature.

I can provide no contingencies as you very well know. I have said what I thought before so you already have all the information. And I never stated I fully believe him to be town and truthful. Just that lynching him today could be wasteful.

On a different note, well placed vote on chair. I am beginning to worry we're a bunch of townies arguing while scum sit back.

[Sathoris]

My goal is no longer to convince you of anything Sathoris. My goal is to see you have a date with some rope.

I see, but lynching me would mean you'd be following my plan. The same plan you so opposed and decided to vote me for.

[Sathoris]

My goal is no longer to convince you of anything Sathoris. My goal is to see you have a date with some rope.

I see, but lynching me would mean you'd be following my plan. The same plan you so opposed and decided to vote me for.

You mean leaving BBmolla alive? Yeah, I'm okay with that for now. Hint: its not because he claimed a worthless PR.

May I inquire as to why?

[Sathoris]

Though if I'm so convinced in my mind that you're scum, it implies that I am legitimately scumhunting, which in turn implies I'm town. But you say I'm scum. So that term couldn't possibly apply to me, right? If I'm scum, I would be absolutely sure you were town, right? Why would I have to convince myself that you're scum, if I knew objectively that it wasn't true? Your train of logic only makes sense if you think I'm town, which you don't.

WIFOM, dismissable.

go get sexually assaulted in a dark alley
this is never the right response
sathoris is actually a good candidate for rounding out my 3-man scumteam
though where has twisted disappeared to recently

Hrm. Yeah, this is a bit scummy, and certainly notable. Dismissing X as WIFOM is a classic scum tactic, but it can also just be a townie who doesn't really understand how WIFOM works.

So Sathorsis: your post implies that Parama's argument is dismissible solely because it is WIFOMic in nature. Can't this be used to dismiss essentially any argument at any time? All of mafia is wifomic - any given action can almost always be assigned both town and mafia motivations, and the goal of town is to determine the more likely motivation. So why should any wifom argument, which inherently has motivations, be dismissed?

Okay, take Kanye's post on Lurconis' quote where he thinks he might have an exceptional win condition because he thinks people with a restriction might. Solid argument with reasons. Anybody else can see how he got there because it's all in the quote.

BB called Parama scum because he was distorting as much as he could to paint BB in a scum position. Now take Parama's argument, posting about what he could call himself so to contradict BB's stance. No one else can think what Parama thinks, especially if he's scum. So why should we take his word for it. I don't trust him, therefore I don't trust his argument. It may not be the definiton of WIFOM, but it got close enough.

Also if you don't know why I posted that the way I did then reread my posts.

I am beginning to worry we're a bunch of townies arguing while scum sit back.

Guess who suddenly showed up who were curiously absent in the namecop debate.

[Sathoris]

Why do you think that fishy doesn't have a post restriction? I could be wrong but I assumed that scum also had them and even if fishy has one, it's not mandatory that he follows it.

Also, if scum don't have post restrictions then wouldn't it be obvious to identify them?

Already answered your first question a few pages back in the debate. You dragged this back out so you can do the dirty work. And you answered your last question yourself in the previous sentence.

I already acknoledged I was wrong, no point rehashing old news. And you can tell me all you want to answer your question, but next time I will just ignore useless questions like these.

[Sathoris]

Unfortunately same here. My employer decided to surpise me with a last minute conference so I'm rushing to prepare and will be V/LA this weekend.

[Sathoris]

I'm too sleep deprived to analyse all of this, but my gut feeling: twisted is looking opportunistic as hell. Johhog's not far behind him.

Will take a closer look tomorrow, obviously.

[Sathoris]

VOTE: Twisted

I'd rather see him go then BB. I realise I'm not providing a valid reason and I'll try to give you one as soon as I can™. Just like to make the vote official.

[Sathoris]

That's almost game breaking info, Parama.

[Sathoris]

You too are very eager to show you're on the chart.

[Sathoris]

It's not inactivity, it's hard to pinpoint. It's mostly a glorified gut feeling backed up only by your attempts to set up a 1v1 with Parama and BB.

if you're town parma is scum. same for parama town

in other words would you offer yourself as a sacrifice to confirm parma as scum for tommorow (assuming you are town)

As it stands, I trust Parama, BB and Kanye. Chair is joining the good side as is Fishy. If I were to guess where the scum are hiding I'd say it's in you, Lurconis, Zang, Haylen, Johhog and Panda. Given we're one day off the deadline and you've got three votes now and it's useless to make a whole case on one of the others and expect to get them lynched within a day. I'm sticking on you as it's my best shot in the dark right now.

[Sathoris]

Well, I am over-fucking-whelmed. What do you want, a fucking junior g-man badge?

[Sathoris]

Should've lynched Twisted.

[Sathoris]

besides, deadline is a few hours away

were you seriously wanting a NL?

I'd much rather wanted a NL than a BB lynch.