I have not been following very closely but I will get on it yeah?
Mini 380: Artifacts- Game over
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Kelly Chen Open-Minded
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I'm still (re)reading and sorting out the more minor players here. If I had to vote Nai vs. Coron I'd vote Coron, just because I have a (weird but) town impression from Nai and Coron doesn't seem to.
But these two seem to be the most active players. Just that makes me reluctant to want to lynch either today.
I don't know what I think yet. More soon.-
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HackerHuck goes out of his way to bat for Coron, but here and there makes sure we know he thinks Coron is scummy, he disagrees with Coron, he wouldn't say Coron is town. It doesn't look very natural to me.
I didn't like HH's exchange with Nai, where HH seemed to push the idea that Nai implies that Coron has special info. I didn't get that at all; it seemed clear to me that it was a rhetorical possibility: "If you don't know someone's town, don't defend them," not, "If you're defending them then you must know something." I find HH's page 6 posts absurd, the way this is twisted.
Huh? Does the scumminess of whatever Nai says depend on whether you think Coron is town or not?HH wrote:I still have doubts that Coron is town and that's why it's just an FOS, not a vote.
Side note... Another reason not to defend other people is that it may keep them from needing to defend themselves.-
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Scummy, with that last line.Jules wrote:You made this bit up aswell. I've never voted for anyone apart from you and Coron. Worrying how you claim to be townie and yet you use phrases like "if I remember correctly", when if this is the case, you obviously have the memory of a goldfish. Looks more like a contortion of facts however
The withdrawal in 292 seems off or premature to me.
Nice contribution to that exchange Coron.-
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You need an answer to this question? He claimed an item between those two posts.HackerHuck wrote:What happened between these two posts? His claim came before the first one.CrashTextDummie wrote:I see no reason not to lynch this guy.CrashTextDummie wrote:Unvote
Have to think his claim over.FOS: HackerHuck
Can ShadowLurker confirm what the item does? I have some difficulty imagining that scum would start out with an information object. They wouldn't have incentive to pass it around, I don't think.-
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If it delivers information to anybody, the scum would not want to use it, pass it around, or even admit it exists. It seems there's some potential to use it for misdirection, but then the town would still expect the item to be passed along.HackerHuck wrote:Anyway, from the description, this isn't an information item per se. It allows one to ask a question, but doesn't deliver information to the owner.
Your question in 368 struck me as an inattentive and/or an attempt to make CTD look suspicious.-
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I do believe he had that artifact. I'm not totally sure I'm right that scum would not have started with that artifact. Does anyone else have comments on that?
As far as mass claim
Usually mass claim works when scum can be expected to have difficulties coming up with a claim, or committing to one early. That doesn't seem like an issue here.-
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Did you look at HH's posts?GreenLiquid wrote:
Can you give more detail about why you feel this way? I don't see the connection.I'll reread things but I'm pretty sure I still don't trust HH. If you look at HH's comments on Coron it's like too easy to say they're scum together.
Why is coron at lynch -1? I won't say he's not scum, but I haven't seen anyone make an argument against him. We're still on page two here, so I'm quite concerned about all the haste.
Referring to oneself in the third person almost warrants the final lynch vote though...
Although he is acting a bit sure of himself, that's not a good enough reason to put someone on the brink.
Unvote: Nightfall, Vote: lunalovegoodI had made or was going to make a bit of a post about my feelings on both Nai and Coron. Coron’s playstyle makes me lean toward him being scum, but by no means to the extent that everyone else believes.That said, Luna's still scummier in my book and I'd put Nai almost to her level. Even though I don't like his playstyle here, I think the Coron wagon is a little too weak for the amount of pressure he's getting.Nai sure likes to imply that Coron has inside knowledge of some kind. FoS: NaiCoron's defence of Jules was just Coron stating his opinion that it seems to be reasonable behaviour to FOS and then Vote without any new information. I don't agree with that opinion, but it certainly doesn't appear that he's trying to indicate that he's got some kind of inside knowledge.
Coron's behaviour is starting to wear thin. His defence of jules has been noted as has his claim to do a reread of Jules back on post 93.Your force and craplogic is the suggestion that Coron might have inside information because:
-He defended Jules
-Your words "...you should never defend someone unless you are absolutely sure of their role."
According to this "logic", I must now have inside information about Coron and Stewie must have inside information about you, but you fail to mention that.
You have made an assumption that because someone gave you advice on how you should play, everyone else is playing that same way. In your words - "craplogic".I'm perfectly willing to admit to defending Coron on this point, but don't twist things around and say I agree with him when I've explicitly stated that I don't.I still have doubts that Coron is town and that's why it's just an FOS, not a vote.
Note the wishy washy distancing mixed in with the defense. I find it unconvincing, like he wants to be sure we notice he suspects Coron somewhat.Coron has been pinging my scumdar a bit, but I chalk it up to his annoying playstyle. I'm not going to say I think he's likely town, but I'm not sure he's scum either.-
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Regarding Coron, what I'm talking about is 417's "I of course know I'm scum." That, and the fact that Coron hasn't struck me as so helpful he's more likely to be town.
I agree with your last comment on Jules' vote.
I can easily see luna as scum, although her postsaftershe voted Coron strike me as ok, as do ShadowLurker's posts. Also, assuming Coron is scum, luna as his scum partner seems unlikely.
I'm not sure what I can say about perfect. He was probably skimming, but he might've also been confused by the jokey page 1 voting. I couldn't really blame a newb for assuming something substantial was being discussed.-
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Attacking someone's attack of someone else could be a defense of the latter. I don't see any way around that. If it can serve to defend somebody then it's a defense, deliberate or not.
Jules does stink. But what I'm thinking is, what if he started with around half of our investigative capabilities? If so, I really don't think he's scum. And whether this is the case, that we have so little investigative power, should become clearer in time.
I feel that Nai's posts are taken very uncharitably.
Not a scum tell, but bad play. Yes, that's a sweeping generalization.Whoever told you, Nai, told you wrong. Think about it. That means that the only time townspeople should ever defend someone is if that person is their mason partner. So any defense, even the most basic, is a scumtell. Riiiight.
Some of this is damn basic. If X is interrogating Y then let Y answer the questions. Z should not rush to Y's defense just because he thinks he knows the answers.-
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I don't think this is a nasty habit, or even particularly true. If I vote without comment this is probably just a response to whatever is going on. Your inability to make any sense of my Zindaras FOS baffles me, especially if you're actually going through the thread and not simply viewing all posts by X.GreenLiquid wrote:Kelly has a nasty habit of not explaining her votes or FoS's unless explicitly told to,
Assuming you don't doubt he had that artifact, is there a point to this or are you just scolding Jules?First, he starts off with 'I'm a townie with no powers,' then later it becomes that he had an artifact. Over the course of a lot of prodding, we finally get all the details. When a person claims, they need to outline the important details. And maybe it's just me, but I think having an artifact is classified as an important detail.
How would that be advantageous at all to scum?Quite. Which is probably the one good thing about his claim, and is probably big enough to redeem most of my suspicion about the claim (though I could still easily see what he was doing as an attempt to not have to bother claiming an artifact).
Somewhat suspicious.So, in conclusion, I think that Jules is our best lynch for today.-
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Assuming Jules as scum, and that Jules and luna weren't scum partners, I don't see how Jules could have the impression that he would be better off leaving unstated that he'd had the item.
If Jules and luna were scum together then I could see it as a possible blunder that he revealed the Ear's existence, since now we all know about it. But I'm not sure why he would've passed it around at all then. Or even used it.
I still think that starting with the Ear is evidence of being protown. Have you not considered this GL?-
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What kind of evidence would you be looking for?Nightfall wrote:Beyond that, Coron was the only one that struck me as being pretty scummy, and he too has actually started to act more townlike imo in recent days. This could all be an attempt by a scum coron to link himself up with a town jules, but I dont have any real evidence of that yet.FOS: Nightfall
Coron seems more townlike lately because he's just arguing and defending himself against GL, and that looks on-topic and meaty. I doubt it's any challenge.-
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Nai wrote:Continuing with Green Liquid: Yes, I continue to assume that Coron has outside information. But, if I remember correctly, he's the only one I have accused of that. No one else. The reason I think that is because that's the only explanation that can possibly justify his playstyle this game. It may be true that what I was taught is wrong. I'll give you that. But it's better than working off of nothing. If someone acts beyond all possible thought, then I'll assume they know something I don't.
I am surprised to read this... I was under the impression that you criticized Coron's behavior because it should only make sense if he had outside information. But you really think he has some?Outside Info Revisited: You keep on having this complete and utter vehemence against anyone thinking Coron has outside information. Why is that? Every time someone brings up the point, you attack it. Is there some reason you find someone being a cop, or scum, completely impossible?
Because if he does, I don't see how his use of this information looks scummy at all. If he has outside information to suggest that you're scum, then it's pro-town to expose it. If he has outside information to defend Jules as town, defending him helps town no matter Coron's alignment. On the contrary it seems anti-town to draw attention to Coron having the info. And it's strange to suspect him for seeming to have it.
I find this position incredible. We basically know Jules had the Ear. The only issue is that he didn't mention it immediately. On top of that, this is an item that scum probably would not start with in my estimation.Artifact Roleclaim: Coron, I'd consider what artifacts you've had, and when, to be a big point of this game. When someone roleclaims, I think that powers they have had (which artifacts fall under) would be part of it. If you are a one shot vig, who used his shot, you are not suddenly a towny with no powers. You are a one shot vig that used it. One is VERY different from the other.As such, Jules' claim is way too out there.-
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I'm not convinced that Nai's explanation in 570 (wrt whether he does or does not actually think Coron has info) jives well with the quotes in the preceding post.
luna and perfect have both been replaced. So I take it you are still talking about their Coron votes on page 1-2. It strikes me as though nothing of interest has happened for you since then.Zindaras wrote:While I'd know who I'd pick if I'd have to pick one of them as scum, their argument comes off as an argument between two townies. It's the people 'wagoning right onto it that have to be looked out for, so luna and perfect.
My main thought on reading CTD's analysis is that it's mostly compatible with my feelings, with the exception of Stewie, who I don't suspect much. In 297 he is obviously trying to cast suspicion on Jules, but hewasvoting him at the time, so this doesn't seem too out of line, or like he was trying to get people to start a bandwagon for him. 351 and 445 seem to fish, but they're pretty blatant about it. If there was anything sneaky here I might feel different. I don't think I understand what CTD means by Stewie hedging his bets wrt Coron vs Nai though.-
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Is your memory of pages 1-2 getting shaky?Zindaras wrote:While I feel that "If X isn't scum, we should lynch Y" sentiments are usually flawed and don't really like planning multiple lynches ahead, I'd accept your offer if we wouldn't lynch either of them if I didn't.
Regardless, I really need to reread this game.
Usually when players use the "overstate certainty" tactic they don't undermine themselves by saying they need a reread. It's dishonest/unhelpful of you to be willing to gamble on a "lynch them, then lynch me" proposition when you don't have the certainty you're talking about.
Noting how these suggestions are "usually" flawed is some transparent BSing. You're the one who should be able to decide that the proposition is good and harmless in this case. If I'm scum then what's the holdup? Why let a mafia "rule of thumb" stop you?
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I've had that role as town in a scumchat UPick game (Moses, one-shot lead Jews out of Egypt).
I doubt Nai would make that item up, and it's confirmable anyway. It's weird that he can't pass it though.
If he's town then passing it would only be bad if he gave it to scum, which would be his own stupidity and would only cost the town one night of actions.
If this is supposed to obviously be a scum power (in which case why would Nai claim it, wifom, etc.) it seems dumb from a design perspective to prevent passing it, since scum would never pass it to town unless passing it would help convince the town that it's not inherently a scum power.-
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"I have a scum-assisting artifact that can't even be given to anyone else"? That kind of stinks doesn't it? If it means avoiding a lynch I think it would be much better to leave the possibility of handing the item off.Coron wrote:The point is that he claimed an artifact that couldn't be passed, it seems if scum had artifacts that is exactly what they would want to claim,
You don't think he has that item at all? What's his plan when we ask him to use the item and nothing happens? It clearly should have some effect onWith the uncertainty of who it blocks it makes it even less believable.somebody.-
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What I'd find scummy isn't that it isn't passable, but that Nai seemed to argue that it shouldn't be passable.
That's not to say I see myself voting Nai today. I'm just nervous. But if he is scum, I think we're way ahead of the game in having him claim that item, since he can hardly use it against us without us knowing who probably did it.-
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Nai wrote:It SHOULDN'T be passable, from a design perspective, because it's a powerful ability. It's a global, yet selective, role-block. Can you see that ability being used more than once in a game that wouldn't unbalance it?
It could easily be one one this type of artifact, and still be passable.OP wrote:If it starts with "Once in the game, you may", that's once for theartifactfor the entire game; once it's been used, the artifact either becomes useless or disappears.
Man didn't I say this?
Ok, this is what I should be replying to
Because you could pass it WITHOUT using it.Nai wrote:I don't think there'd be any point of an artifact that, once used, can't ever be used again, but can be passed around.
The point would just be a wider range of choices. Scum could say "hey, if you don't trust me with this thing, take it." Somebody who thinks they're going to die could pass it on first.
B isn't obvious at all. If scum have been driven to claim then they need to be thinking about what will save their ass, not how they can hang on to their artifact.Coron wrote:I'd argue that it IS scummy that he claims that it isnt passable because:
A) scum with it and it is unpassable will want to claim it's unpassable
B) scum with it and it is passable will want to claim it's unpassable so they don't have to pass it off.-
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Hm, I kind of doubt scum will NK Nai over this item. Even if it stops kills, it doesn't incriminate anyone like a normal block would.HH wrote:Why would you not want him to use the item tonight? Now that the scum know he has it, he's a target and would lose it upon his death. I say better to use than not.
I was mainly saying I don't think there is any need to prove whether hehasthe item. I don't have a problem with him using it tonight, to make sure he has the chance.-
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All things being equal they would.HackerHuck wrote:
That doesn't make sense. Why wouldn't scum want to eliminate an item that would prevent them from killing?Kelly Chen wrote:
Hm, I kind of doubt scum will NK Nai over this item. Even if it stops kills, it doesn't incriminate anyone like a normal block would.HH wrote:Why would you not want him to use the item tonight? Now that the scum know he has it, he's a target and would lose it upon his death. I say better to use than not.
Hm?I can see scum not wanting to kill on any given night from a strategic perspective, but not when the timing is out of their control.
If he uses it unexpectedly, the town could conceivably waste other one-shots.Anyway, it's Nai's decision when to use it and I don't see it benefitting the town to tell us when he plans to use it.-
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Yeah. I can think of a number of other factors that could go into a nightkill decision in this game at this time.HackerHuck wrote:
Are you implying that all things are not equal in this case?Kelly Chen wrote:
All things being equal they would.HackerHuck wrote:
That doesn't make sense. Why wouldn't scum want to eliminate an item that would prevent them from killing?Kelly Chen wrote:
Hm, I kind of doubt scum will NK Nai over this item. Even if it stops kills, it doesn't incriminate anyone like a normal block would.HH wrote:Why would you not want him to use the item tonight? Now that the scum know he has it, he's a target and would lose it upon his death. I say better to use than not.-
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I do. Except for the Stewie thing iirc.Zindaras wrote:Anyway, time to opinionate:
CrashTextDummie (Replacing conflux): conflux didn't do a whole lot. CTD, well, he made that big analysis post. He put Hucky and me as scum, SL as Town and Kelly as, I believe, probable town. I do not find myself agreeing with his opinions at all.
Great analysisCoron: Has, in general, been playing Coronish. I don't suspect him for this. I think he's town.
You agree with making a good analysis, or you agree with GL's analysis? If the latter, what did you like about it?GreenLiquid: Town. Made a really good analysis, and I find myself agreeing with that.
I would actually be ok with deadline lynching GL instead of HH.
omfgHackerHuck: Town. Deserves a Scummy if he isn't.
He voted Nai and unvoted. Let's talk about Jules' item here.Jules: I'm undecided. I'd like to see what Apeiron does before deciding.
okShadowLurker (Replacing lunalovegood): luna made a pretty large scumtell in the beginning, and SL hasn't really been doing a lot to alleviate my suspicions.
ok, what about the way Coron has gone after Nai?Nai: Scummy. Claim's in the middle, and I do not like at all the way he's been attacking Coron throughout the way. His lynch is by far preferable over a Hucky lynch.
okNightfall: Lurker, as usual. I don't like the way he reacted to me calling him out for lurking (by saying I think he's scum in every game). That's a scumtell, though not a big one.
asdfawefasdKelly Chen (Replacing perfect62834): Perfect's early vote on Coron is a huge newb scumtell. Again, Kelly's not really giving off any townie vibes at all. I'm still convinced she's scum.
okMachiavellian-Mafia (Replacing Stewie): Posted a very meh-ish analysis. That's the only thing we've seen from MaMa so far. Stewie gave off some scumvibes, but nothing really bad.
LOL.If I had to decide on a scumteam right now, it'd be CTD/SL/Kelly.-
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Good questions.Nightfall wrote:I have something to say, but first I need three questions answered.
The person that had the ear - What did you ask it?
Shadow - Why did you ask about MM (Stewies Replacement?) when Jules already did that night 1?
I'm not sure this is a good question.Everyone - Does anyone else have an artifact with the words "of the Diviner" in it's name?
vote: GreenLiquid, explain!-
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Why did you drop off the planet yesterday? You were going to tell us who you ultimately suspected.GreenLiquid wrote:
If you want to play games, I'm not interested. Either make a valid accusation or don't expect an explaination.Take a guess?
lol.The latter part of Day One was really strange, and I'm not sure I even could follow people's thought processes. I think it would be wise to start the day off with people posting who they find suspicious.
How likely (percentage-wise) do you think it is that Nai had this as a role ability rather than an artifact?A few notes:
1) Nai's use of 'artifact' does not make me think he is town. The limitations on it make me want to think that it was a mafia power that Nai wanted to label as an artifact, realized what could happen if he was ordered to pass it, and gave it the no-pass limitation.
I'm curious about what in particular you disliked.2) I don't like how Zindaras made repeated efforts to stop HH's lynch near the end of Day 1.-
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Kelly Chen Open-Minded
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Kelly Chen Open-Minded
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Kelly Chen Open-Minded
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Well let's just have a look through:
Bogre (Replacing CrashTextDummie (Replacing conflux))
who? istr thinking CTD was town.
Coron
still don't trust
GreenLiquid
really don't trust, let's get him
Apeiron (Replacing Jules)
very likely to be town ime
ShadowLurker (Replacing lunalovegood)
was thinking town, but I haven't thought through this open PM thing and what Nightfall is asking about
Nai
still tend to think town, but I think it is quite obvious that scum could have his artifact; it rings alarm bells for me if Nai can't admit that
Nightfall
thought he was likely scum yesterday, but today I'll say the jury is out...
Machiavellian-Mafia (Replacing Stewie)
always thought Stewie was town. MM seems awol telling me nothing
Zindaras
scum or at least highly useless-
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Kelly Chen Open-Minded
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Kelly Chen Open-Minded
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Kelly Chen Open-Minded
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Nightfall, are you saying you believe Shadowlurker sent a nightmove about a nonexistent item to the wrong person? In that case it seems even more unlikely to me that the mod would resolve this by revealing the information in the PM; that could easily be exploited exactly in order to fake claim something.-
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Kelly Chen Open-Minded
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