Large Normal 224 | Endgame

[davesaz]

Under wins this time.
VOTE: Dunnstral

[davesaz]

Let’s not, at least not until everyone has checked in

I'd guess 3 flakes/lurkers in a game this size, so waiting for everyone may be futile. But I appreciate the sentiment of keeping the game-entry catchups short.

[davesaz]

Tea's 57 is casting shade on what look to me to be a couple of good leads.
Tea would be a good vote but I think the careful play by Norwegian is scummier.
VOTE: Norwegian

[davesaz]

FL was your Tea vote extended RVS? If not please confirm the reason (if any, I know your style lol).

[davesaz]

VOTE: Layla opportunistic wagon hop

Are you calling your own wagon hop opportunistic? Because Layla hasn't changed votes before this.

[davesaz]

Wondering why PMysterious responded to role PM but hasn't posted.

[davesaz]

I've been waiting for Nomination Mafia to end

I'm pretty sure PMysterious is town and I think it's fairly likely Norwegian is playing similarly to how he played there.

You shouldn't refer to ongoing games.

[davesaz]

Sorry, I didn't interpret that right. There is an implied 2nd sentence "now that it is over I can now say" ... that didn't click.

[davesaz]

okay, caught up.

VOTE: gamma

for ruining it.

Don't get this -- ruining what?

[davesaz]

Good news: not drowning in stuff.
Bad news: not much spicy to guess at motivations from.

[davesaz]

I’m townreading Dunnstral for no reason and I probably shouldn’t be

gl

I have a warm spot when I think about Dunn too, but its because he voted wake.

Seems like that bar is a little low.
A poke at a lurker is protown but not necessarily townie.

[davesaz]

I shouldn't rely on memory so much.
I hadn't remembered Wake posting that many times. Though that's a different kind of indicator...
Luca looks good for bringing it up.

[davesaz]

Good news: not drowning in stuff.
Bad news: not much spicy to guess at motivations from.

In case you missed it. A "large" game with post numbers still in the 300's and a week-ish(??) in? Inconceivable!

[davesaz]

I’m townreading Dunnstral for no reason and I probably shouldn’t be

gl

I have a warm spot when I think about Dunn too, but its because he voted wake.

Seems like that bar is a little low.
A poke at a lurker is protown but not necessarily townie.

I'm gonna double down on this.
My initial comment about Wake being a lurker was outright wrong, as I already pointed out.
Wake's posting looks pretty odd, as rightly pointed out by Luca.
Dunnstral voted Wake, said the ISO was bad, but said

nothing

about why it was bad.
That's actually not too out of character for Dunn, I rarely see any substantial explanations from him. The point here is that it's NAI.
Fish Monger and Chemist liked Dunn but didn't explain anything more than the vote on Wake as a reason, when Dunn's ISO is devoid of anything but votes with no explanations.

Between Wake, Dunn, Fish Monger and Chemist at least one is probably scum and possibly two. I loathe association hunting before a flip so I have no interest in which combination. I'd settle for finding some reads at this point, and that's going to be hard without some material.

It's too late at night to dig into all of this, in particular where any of these are on the larger wagons. So this post serves as a reminder to self of where to look.

Pedit: Sure, why not. I still think Norwegian could be scum, but wagons are what we need and which scum matters little.
VOTE: Wake

[davesaz]

I wouldn’t push Wake unless Tea flips w and that’s not a read I’m feeling great on

So you think Dunn pushing Wake is townish (or at least feel ok about it), but you're not ok pushing there? That's a somewhat odd position.

[davesaz]

I wouldn’t push Wake unless Tea flips w and that’s not a read I’m feeling great on

So you think Dunn pushing Wake is townish (or at least feel ok about it), but you're not ok pushing there? That's a somewhat odd position.

I didn’t say Dunn pushing Wake was townish

Don’t put words in my mouth

It was two posts after Dunn's vote.
It is accurate to say that you didn't mention the vote.
I don't see how inferring that the vote is related to the read is unfair though.

[davesaz]

3 days 11 hours. Tomorrow I’m going to be in a client briefing and won’t be able to do much if anything.

[davesaz]

Saw a request for town reads -- here you go, no particular order for strength other than knowing my alignment .
davesaz
Luca Blight
Almost50
Gamma Emerald
Zote the Mighty

Norwegian might be town. I didn't like the early reluctance to vote, when at that time a vote meant very little. Later posting is good but I tend to have reservations about the possibility that it's a recovery tactic.

[davesaz]

More client meetings today, doubtful I'll be able to post much. And certainly not much deep thought.

[davesaz]

Saw a request for town reads -- here you go, no particular order for strength other than knowing my alignment .
davesaz
Luca Blight
Almost50
Gamma Emerald
Zote the Mighty

Norwegian might be town. I didn't like the early reluctance to vote, when at that time a vote meant very little. Later posting is good but I tend to have reservations about the possibility that it's a recovery tactic.

Talk about Zote and maybe Luca.

For Zote, 364 thru 369 looked town motivated to me.
Luca has had lots of sorty behavior, do you really need it to be pointed out? I have noticed the comments about him changing reads -- I'd town read that more than someone who doesn't re-evaluate according to changing circumstances.

Norwegian has continued to look better. I think I'm ready to just call that town.

[davesaz]

Looks like I forgot to post my expected absence in this game.
Though tbh I want to see the replacement posting. Except that hectic as a replacement may not be easy to read.

[davesaz]

Ridiculous number of single voters. Rn on phone and the small screen doesn't make it easy for me. Replacing a broken toilet next.

[davesaz]

I wouldn’t push Wake unless Tea flips w and that’s not a read I’m feeling great on

So you think Dunn pushing Wake is townish (or at least feel ok about it), but you're not ok pushing there? That's a somewhat odd position.

I didn’t say Dunn pushing Wake was townish

Don’t put words in my mouth

It was two posts after Dunn's vote.
It is accurate to say that you didn't mention the vote.
I don't see how inferring that the vote is related to the read is unfair though.

I don't think I ever got a response to this, though it's reasonable to assume Chemist didn't think one was expected.

[davesaz]

Looks like I forgot to post my expected absence in this game.
Though tbh I want to see the replacement posting. Except that hectic as a replacement may not be easy to read.

At least that fool will bring some life into this game.

I don't mind the humor, but so far nothing to break up the stagnation.
I have a really bad feeling about this, but I'm not normally the type to start taking potshots. The lack of fireworks to interpret is killing me.
Deadline restarted at 3 days, and trying to run up PM doesn't seem promising at all. What are we going to learn from that?
Sure if it flips scum I'll take it, but then what?

[davesaz]

VOTE: Dunn
easy no resistance CFD wagon pls join

This vote is still on me

Is this an attempt to drum up support for a Vorkuta lynch? Pointing out an extremely stale vote on a not very memorable slot? Some other purpose that's less than obvious?

[davesaz]

While you’re here thoughts on anything else? Game needs some serious work.

[davesaz]

Here's where I am.

Tea - having a hard time making up my mind, have not played with before
PMysterious - not trying to scumhunt, normally something I read as a scumtell. Concerned about lack of info from a lynch but OTOH scum lynch is good.
Fish Monger - feels town
Chemist1422 - another not trying to scumhunt, but reaction to my question wasn't bad. Willing to vote
Billy Pilgrim - feels town
Flavor Leaf - actions feel town but he's someone who can fool me easily
Hectic - I thought his predecessor was a little scummy. Need to see some more catchup before I can read
Luca Blight - feels town
davesaz - town
Dunnstral - Doesn't seem to be scumhunting, don't know why others think he's town.
Vorkuta - V/LA and can't remember what I thought. I try not to scumread people for RL. Willing to re-read if a wagon pops up.
Almost50 - Catchup felt townie
Reundo - pretty null, I'd have to re-read, has not been very memorable
Wake88 - I think he's been avoiding hunting a little more than just not liking d1
Gamma Emerald - feels town
Zote the Mighty - feels town
splitfarvle - would be willing to vote, another not scumhunting
NorwegianboyEE - feels town

Wake feels like he's actively avoiding scumhunting, which seems more scum motivated than just lurking would. Though the hating d1 thing is true from what I remember.
PMysterious, splitfarvle would be ok lynches. I said I'd like to do better meaning I would prefer someone who gives us D2 leads.
I'd be willing to vote for Dunn or Chemist to avoid a NL. I probably wouldn't push them.

If you have anyone else you'd like me to consider for a vote please make a case. I'm willing to listen.

[davesaz]

Luca blight seems really town to me, I'm not sure why people keep voting him

I don't ever remember davesaz being so hung up on "avoiding scumhunting" being a reason to scumread people like he is right now, or being concerned about a lack of info from a lynch (which is a honestly a pretty dumb reason to be against a wagon anyway)

I can't remember if I've used that in a game you have been in.
I've been using it for a year or more. Even pegged an entire scumteam one game (vig x2 and predicted 3rd in dead thread).
Having one of the main wagon options nearing deadline being a 7 post ISO is pretty unusual, so it's not surprising you don't see that complaint often.

[davesaz]

Dave's acting real weird. Already been mentioned why but this especially:

Deadline restarted at 3 days, and trying to run up PM doesn't seem promising at all. What are we going to learn from that?

Sure if it flips scum I'll take it, but then what?

What do you even mean by this, Dave?

Any scum lynch is a good lynch. I'll take it.
A scum lynch that helps find more scum is better.

[davesaz]

I think that's something worth mentioning.

[davesaz]

VOTE: PMysterious

[davesaz]

Oh, wait. Can't someone abuse Dolly's system if they start tactically splitting or conglomeration their posts?

If they think they're saying something which may be controversial, combine everything they want to say on the matter into one post, and take the easy -1.

If they're going to say something they think will be well recieved, split their thoughts into 10 different posts, and an easy +10.

This is kinda making an assumption that controversy is a minus. I'd be interested to hear Dolly's definitions of plus and minus.

I've noticed a guilty claim and will be continuing reading before taking any action. IMO a guilty is about the best/only way to actually catch FL. I agree with Norwegian that some discussion is good.

[davesaz]

OK that wasn't much to read. No danger of a quick hammer to stop conversation so...
VOTE: Flavor Leaf

[davesaz]

Do NOT play like that, ESPECIALLY if you are Town.

I agree. Reaction tests are a thing but certain kinds of fire are not meant to play with.

[davesaz]

My town reads: Luca, Reundo, A50

At this point why were these TRs?

[davesaz]

My town reads: Luca, Reundo, A50

At this point why were these TRs?

I'm trying to figure out split's trajectory on Luca. The TR in 539 wasn't explained, and then not much had changed by the time split started talking about Luca's handling of Vorkuta. Sure reads change but in this case I think it's more likely that 539 didn't reflect actual thoughts.

[davesaz]

VOTE: split

I think Luca is pretty obvtown, don't see a good reason for any of the scumreads there. I'm always willing to listen because I have a soft spot for reasonable posting, but if you think he's scum you're going to need to actually sell it to get my vote.

I see what you mean about A50. I also don't think he's as loose and playful as normal. I'm not sure about it because I see him more often as original player and less often as a replacement.

[davesaz]

Idk if there's even supposed to be 3 scum or 4 scum in this game so assoc. hunting will be hard

Don't understand how that makes it harder. Two people seeming unnaturally linked is still two people whatever team size.

[davesaz]

I think norwegian could be scum, yes

But I also think Dolly is straight up just scum

Anyone could be scum, but I don't see Norwegian being manipulative.
Dolly I can agree with but there are many pages still to read.

[davesaz]

Yay page 59-61 have lots of content. I'm only speed reading given how far I'm behind, will slow read selected stuff later.
Vacation for rest of the year though so hopefully we can finally get somewhere. If catching up on stuff around the house doesn't get in the way.

[davesaz]

Re page 63: Can you trim the mega quotes to what is relevant?
If it's all relevant that's fine, it's just that it takes up more space and adds more words to read when it's not.
Of course I should not complain given the paucity of real material before y'all got talkative.

[davesaz]

Oh, Menalque must be split replacement. No remaining reason to SR that slot.
UNVOTE:

22 hours left and 6 people have votes (5 now that I've had a chance to catch up). What the heck is going on?
I see Norwegian's posting as quite solvey, don't know what Menalque is pushing him for. Will need to do the slow reading to find out.

Dolly's trajectory is wonky, the vote on Dunnstral seems to be avoiding the wake/luca/(formerly split) leading wagons. That's going from memory though...
I think (?) I've already said that A50 doesn't seem his naturally playful and open book self. Might be scum.
I'm a little concerned that Hectic seems to be a relative non-presence. Would have to ISO to see.

VOTE: Dolly Parton pending re-read of the things I've skimmed.

[davesaz]

Norwegian's handling of Hectic was part of the case, but Hectic is voting Norwegian. Does that factor in?
Actually if Hectic replaced Layla then it's a big part of the case.

I totally see the FL thing, who tries to talk a cop out of a guilty? He couldn't know it wasn't a cop at that point. I'm kinda surprised I didn't notice it then, must have happened during a window when I didn't have enough time to think.

[davesaz]

okay so gamestate says Luca is probably scum

pk why do you TR norway?

I have another pet SR but we should lynch Luca today prob

What's the reason for this? What about the gamestate?

Don't know if you answered this.
What made you shift focus from Luca to Norwegian?

I had been reading Norwegian's fluidity as townish without paying much attention to the context. With the context it looks much worse.

[davesaz]

VOTE: Norwegian

[davesaz]

My time is limited today, need to drive ~4 hours round trip to get my daughter from the airport, and my son has a concert. It's been fairly crazy for a couple of weeks...
I may finally have a handle on reading A50, pretty happy about that.
To distinguish between vig and sk I'd need to do a closer review of things. Both are hunting mafia but from different angles.

[davesaz]

My time is limited today

, need to drive ~4 hours round trip to get my daughter from the airport, and my son has a concert. It's been fairly crazy for a couple of weeks...
I may finally have a handle on reading A50, pretty happy about that.
To distinguish between vig and sk I'd need to do a closer review of things. Both are hunting mafia but from different angles.

Scummy post IMO because you come in and start talking about vig/sk but it doesn't matter - you should be looking for mafia today, and maybe explain why you hammered when you did

I should not be surprised that you ignore the first sentence which is the most important one.

I had exactly enough time to make a comment on some of the most recent discussion at that time. People were discussing sk vs. vig.

Claims something + self votes => scum ate trying to get out of lynch. Sometimes that equation is wrong, and it's a bummer when it is, but I thought it was the right move.

[davesaz]

Don't worry Luca, nobody thinks you're SK, an odd night SK would be a very cruel punishment indeed

The odd night part of the claim could be a ruse to explain the missing N2 kill.
In rebuttal to Luca's question about outing it being suicidal for a SK, if you compare that with getting lynched maybe not.
Despite that I think he's probably vig anyway, that being the hypothesis with the fewest holes.
I think I was TR him before but my brain is mush after being on the go darn near all day yesterday.

[davesaz]

Davesaz looks terribly scummy right now as well, though.

Here’s an idea, as I’m dying tonight anyway why not make the ‘scummy five’ all claim today?

Members of the scummy five being, Menalque, Wake, Dolly, Davesaz, Pisskop.

I think it may help scum more than town, but won't mind doing it if most of my TRs want it.

[davesaz]

The odd night part of the claim could be a ruse to explain the missing N2 kill.
In rebuttal to Luca's question about outing it being suicidal for a SK, if you compare that with getting lynched maybe not.Despite that I think he's probably vig anyway, that being the hypothesis with the fewest holes.
I think I was TR him before but my brain is mush after being on the go darn near all day yesterday.

I should probably anticipate a question about this, that being "if you think he's vig then why mention this?"

Because it's the right thing to do, that's why. Not to mention, it's what I do.

[davesaz]

Annoyingly enough, Mene's predecessor was towny

What dark place did you pull this out of? The opposite is true, split was hella scummy and Menalque is better.

[davesaz]

Absolutely null: Pmysterious12, Fish Monger, Billy Pilgrim, Dunnstral, Wake88, splitfarvle

Noting this for further analysis.

[davesaz]

A50's null list updated for flips and replacements. Kinda expecting 1 scum in this.

Pmysterious

, pisskop,

Billy Pilgrim

, Dunnstral, Wake88, Menalque

[davesaz]

Re: 1960 that isn't the first time Hectic mentioned healing someone.
I think his previous promised heal died anyway but I'd need to search to know for sure.
Don't remember if Gamma posted any RB targets.

[davesaz]

Don't worry Luca, nobody thinks you're SK, an odd night SK would be a very cruel punishment indeed

The odd night part of the claim could be a ruse to explain the missing N2 kill.
In rebuttal to Luca's question about outing it being suicidal for a SK, if you compare that with getting lynched maybe not.
Despite that I think he's probably vig anyway, that being the hypothesis with the fewest holes.
I think I was TR him before but my brain is mush after being on the go darn near all day yesterday.

The last bit seems weird - you said I was obvious Town when I was wagoned D3, but now you can barely remember TR’ing me? I should be more obviously town than ever after that claim.

When I say it's mush, it's mush. I'm 58. I read my own iso to be sure of things. Kindly don't question that.

[davesaz]

Dolly's slot is tearjerkingly bad but Dave's is sort of "play it safe" bad

If you're questioning my comments about rl you're lucky I'm on the phone rn and don't want to fuck with trying to format this comment properly. Never ever question what i say about rl distractions.

[davesaz]

Intermission at the concert. Not having a lot of time is just that. But I probably projected that thought onto the playing it safe bit. I'm always a bit sensitive in this.

[davesaz]

Has anyone responded to the stuff I did have a chance to do? I got the impression it was just ignored...

[davesaz]

Pissy summed up what I find different about Dave this game. He's less assertive and hasn't given out controversial reads.
@Dave: Enjoy your concert.

Thanks, it was great! My son's HS orchestra. His other non-HS orchestra has a concert on Sunday.

Yes, it's different. I'm very aware that nothing has really set me off this game, and it's not comfortable at all.

[davesaz]

My only doubt on Mene right now is his weird gamestate scumread on Luca. He was townreading Wake to such an extent that he thought Wake was the counterwagon to Luca? Why couldn't it have been TvT, and

why is Wake the scum over Luca in the case of TvS?

His short answers to my questions on it indicate he doesn't really want to talk about it much either.

Didn't the Wake wagon come up first?
I'm not sure about the underlined part, the first part says you think Mena thought Luca was scum over Wake.

Pedit: @Luca: For that VC look at the relative times of the first votes on you/split/wake. People talk "counter" in terms of numbers/competing wagons but timing could matter as well. Yeah, I can look for it too, possibly will.

[davesaz]

Followup @Hectic -- you realize my reads were pretty awful in the other game, right? Not that it really matters, but just sayin.

[davesaz]

Wake is biggest wagon, and this happens 4 posts in a row. That wasn't hard to find at all, the trouble being how to tell which the scum is.

I think Luca’s flip flop on the Vorkuta wagon on D1 looks bad, like their reads aren’t genuine.

VOTE: Luca Blight

For the sake of a counterwagon.
VOTE: Luca Blight

I would not mind one bit pressuring Luca Blight.

VOTE: Luca Blight

I think Luca’s flip flop on the Vorkuta wagon on D1 looks bad, like their reads aren’t genuine.

VOTE: Luca Blight

Let's give this a whirl

VOTE: Luca Blight

PEDIT

DAMN>>>>>>>

Did we plan this telepathically or what....

[davesaz]

Scum meta is actually pretty scarce for me. And I un-bookmarked a bunch of stuff which makes it a little harder to find.
Here's one example.

[davesaz]

I wouldn't have much trouble believing that Menalque is scum who talked me into the Norwegian lynch.

[davesaz]

This one is a weird scum game.

[davesaz]

My only doubt on Mene right now is his weird gamestate scumread on Luca. He was townreading Wake to such an extent that he thought Wake was the counterwagon to Luca? Why couldn't it have been TvT, and

why is Wake the scum over Luca in the case of TvS?

His short answers to my questions on it indicate he doesn't really want to talk about it much either.

Didn't the Wake wagon come up first?
I'm not sure about the underlined part, the first part says you think Mena thought Luca was scum over Wake.

Pedit: @Luca: For that VC look at the relative times of the first votes on you/split/wake. People talk "counter" in terms of numbers/competing wagons but timing could matter as well. Yeah, I can look for it too, possibly will.

Yeah, so if the Wake wagon came up first, why would a Luca counterwagon mean Luca was scum? Doesn't it make more sense for Wake to be scum and Luca town since he came after?

But you're saying the opposite of the underlined part now. You asked a question why is Wake scum over Luca, and then answered it by saying he is. If you agree with it then why are you asking the question? Much confusion...

[davesaz]

In reply to 2019.
I agree that would be bold, but Menalque strikes me as an overall bold player. If he is scum, and had a couple town in his pocket, making those types of moves would reinforce the pocket.

[davesaz]

If I had to choose one of Luca or Menalque to be scum it would definitely be Menalque.
I actually think they're both town. It seems unlikely that I'll have to make that choice anyway.

VOTE: Wake
The VCA I posted last night says this is scum. There is room for Wake and a partner on the Luca wagon that popped up.

[davesaz]

No I'm questioning your belief in your stances

Maybe talking about this might help. What makes you think I don't believe them?

[davesaz]

This post which was posted at Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:16:20 pm?

A50's null list updated for flips and replacements. Kinda expecting 1 scum in this.

Pmysterious

, pisskop,

Billy Pilgrim

, Dunnstral, Wake88, Menalque

I posted that one and the next one, ate dinner, and went to the concert.
It's one of the posts I expected to get conversation on.
If we exclude one of my TR (Menalque) from the list it's only 3 people, one of whom I was already scumreading (Wake) and voting.

[davesaz]

1993 was originally an attempt to get Hectic to talk about 1989. Hectic has since cleared up that confusion.
The "research" needed to do that post reminded me about how quickly the Luca wagon appeared. In quotes because I had forgotten how obvious it was.
You think Wake is town? I don't have a TR on Dolly but I think the Wake case is better.

[davesaz]

But I think the redirection on wake is scum-motivated, regardless of his alignment

I think you mean the redirection away from wake, right?

[davesaz]

Has there been a Dolly wagon that I've missed?

[davesaz]

Scumreading Dolly for bad choice of protect target would be like the previous game where I was hounding Garmr for bad usage of a voyeur. I don't feel like repeating that mistake.
I think pisskop is being annoying to be annoying, which is NAI.

[davesaz]

I can protect Chemist tonight, so you'll get at least one more check.

I have a guilty on Flavor Leaf

VOTE: FL

Well well well well well

Maybe I won't be protecting you tonight.

Menu's case on Norwee is actually pretty convincing.

VOTE: Norwee

I don't have a protect.

Yeah, Luca is basically confirmed town. He'll live till tomorrow though since I'm protecting him tonight.

We have 2 NKs on odd nights. That makes sense for 2 protective roles. Maybe there is a strongman or something.

My point is that the above and your reasoning for having 2 protectives doesn't apply if we assume Luca is a vig, and it has nothing to do with when he claimed.

I really want to believe you here, Dolly, but I'm finding it difficult right now.

I'd kinda like to see a Hectic vs Dolly debate on these posts.
Don't know whether to write this off as Hectic lying a lot as town but Dolly ignoring it, or if this is an actual counterclaim situation where neither one is getting upset to the degree one would expect.

[davesaz]

Hectic, I’m voting my biggest scumread while discussing the other wagon. How is that bad? It seems you’re managed to create yet another counter to wake. Not saying you have anything to do with the other counterwagons though I have not looked.

[davesaz]

VT. Hectic, wanting to be sure of you and Dolly obviously. Something better to discuss? I mean you questioning that line of conversation is

[davesaz]

I went to see Rise of Skywalker. Liked it except for some areas with lots of very short scenes.

[davesaz]

@Dunn is that you refusing to claim, complaining about not seeing claims, thinking nobody should claim?

[davesaz]

Play is subjective isn’t it? Like the whole point is to figure out if observed and claimed actions make sense from a motivation point of view.

[davesaz]

Well, you could have held off on the L-1. There were more than 2 days left on the deadline.
That said, Hectic only waited about 2 hours. I was out and it was locked before I got home.
The comment that went with the hammer is pretty scummy, trying to justify by casting blame on people who might not be (and in my case weren't) even here then.

[davesaz]

@Dave: That wasn't serious shade/justification. Just joking around.

I don't have any reason to question it being a joke, but I do have some trouble distinguishing that kind of thing.

[davesaz]

This is quite the quandry.

I had trouble with Hectic's reaction to Dolly's (lack of) reaction to the protective soft. The way I remember it he seemed kinda wishy-washy on the lack of reaction, but also unwilling to either confirm or deny the soft. But then still willing to follow through with the lynch. I kinda agreed that Dolly's claimed targets were pretty oddball and the kind of things that scum would say to keep a fakeclaim alive. On the flip side of that, I tend to think err on the side of caution when working with a claimed doc, the scum kinda need to kill it eventually anyway. Don't know if this is scum squeezing through a lynch on the doc, or just town who doesn't take the same cautious approach that I do with claimed PRs.

Menalque has been doing a lot of pushing on stuff that has turned out to be wrong. Is that just town being wrong, or highly successful manipulation? I have a blind spot for scum who act really town and it has a tendency to lead to thrown games. I'd have to re-read a bunch of stuff to find out.

Dunn pushed so hard (relative to Dunn in general) on there being too many protectives but I don't remember if he just paid it lip service or if he acted on that push. If he really thought there were too many then he should have been there trying to get one of the claims lynched. It could be a fake protest though, the logic he was using to say too many protectives was suspect at best -- not all of them are active at once and with a half vig in play town benefits from an extra half protective. It's a nice cozy rocking chair in any case, I could totally see this as being scum.

Reundo has seemed quite reasonable pretty much all the time, but I'd need to re-read to see if it's an active reasonable or passive.

[davesaz]

I think that boils down to Dunn must be scum regardless.

[davesaz]

Dunn pushed so hard (relative to Dunn in general) on there being too many protectives but I don't remember if he just paid it lip service or if he acted on that push. If he really thought there were too many then he should have been there trying to get one of the claims lynched. It could be a fake protest though, the logic he was using to say too many protectives was suspect at best -- not all of them are active at once and with a half vig in play town benefits from an extra half protective. It's a nice cozy rocking chair in any case, I could totally see this as being scum.

Did you like not catch Dunn hard-pushing Dolly or something?? This is a really weird reason to be scum-reading him in general...

I don't see him actively trying to convince other people to vote her past that initial burst of posts.
Yes a bunch of posts about her and a vote, then an unvote, and a naked vote back on.
Is there something there that I'm not seeing? Am I expecting too much?

[davesaz]

Actually, I think it's a bit weird dave didn't mention Hectic's hammer at all in his read of him considering that's literally the only thing that was talked about today,

I'm not in the habit of repeating things that I just had a discussion on. May even be on the same page? I mentioned Hectic's comment that went with the hammer and he said it was more a joke than serious.

[davesaz]

@hectic, I'm doing a bad job of explaining. It was a quality and timing thing more than a quantity thing. Taking my son up the mountain now, I'll try to illustrate later.

@reundo, I think Hectic and Menalque aren't likely to be scum together, and you're a townread. It follows that Dunn is scum by POE. Given a choice between a 50/50 where I'm unsure which is scum and which is town vs someone who is just scum, I'd prefer the simple case. Do you have good reason to think that Hectic and Menalque are both scum? Or at least sure enough that you think it's better to go for one of them first? There is more to Dunn as well but again taking a drive to visit the snow rn.

[davesaz]

Wake's scummier here.

a guilty.

ARE YOU SUICIDAL?

I'M TOWN.

I dunno this feels overreacty

As town id be like "ok wtf" and let it sit for a while and hope they go "sike"

Also this feels more like scum overreacting and trying to look like an enraged townie.
His first though is Dolly is a suicidal townie rather than the fact she could be scum?

To be fair, he never said "suicidal townie"

Dolly and Wake are both doing the scum thing where they care much less about what's going on when someone else is being wagoned, and start making filler/troll posts instead of pushing the wagon they apparently believe in

Let's go back to my original point.

Dolly and Wake are both doing the scum thing where they care much less about what's going on when someone else is being wagoned, and start making filler/troll posts instead of pushing the wagon they apparently believe in

I'm saying you are scummy because you're basically coasting with a vote on Luca, and that you seem to be posting for the sake of posting rather than pushing the wagon because you're comfy with what's going on right now

That's why I'm asking you to point out posts that are, in your opinion, you pushing this wagon

If you want that to be a credible threat, you should show evidence of yourself pushing the current wagon you are voting, like I've asked you to do twice now

I'm not threatening you. I'm not delusional, I know for sure that I don't have the pull in town that you seem to think I think I do.

I'm not sure what the purpose of the questions you keep coming up with are, then. What information were you trying to get out of 1181?

You seem to be asking me if I want to be lynched, my answer is no.

I see you tossing something out there, but not voting it until after several other people expand on it.

[davesaz]

And those quotes don't illustrate that specific point. I started +quote the ones that mention dolly from the beginning.
It is kinda interesting though, the first one I could find was that 1158. It took you that long to notice a player?

[davesaz]

For the moment, I have more time now than I have had in the past 3 weeks. We'll see how long it takes to get a family interrupt.

Dunnstral

102 posts in iso

Votes:
Zote (16, RVS)
Norwegian (56, Naked)
Wake (320)
PMysterious (748)
Flavor Leaf (946)
splitfarvle (1132)
Dolly (1222)
Dolly (1716)
(Unvote Dolly 2225)
Menalque (2230)
Dolly (2304)

Reasons given for votes:
Norwegian - none directly stated
Wake - positioning, amended a few pages to posturing
PMysterious - "posturing around wake"
Flavor Leaf -- was this before or after guilty? Requires separate analysis.
splitfarvle - no immediate reason given, appears to be naked
Dolly 1222: naked, would need to review context
Dolly 1716: justification had been given previous day, I guess
Unvoted for no apparent reason other than forgot to unvote. Must be post 2214
Menalque: probably because of 2141, but 2141 doesn't say a reason per se
Dolly: Presumably because of deadline, but the post itself is naked. Doesn't need a reason at this point really.

There was a well-stated reason for scumreading Dolly. Of all these votes, that's the only one that had a well-stated reason in the immediate vicinity of the vote post. I do note that he says he had been "pushing" Vorkuta before that point, but the lack of a vote in that direction casts a little doubt on whether that read was as strong as he seems to be saying it is.

Flavor Leaf vote is obviously on someone who had been guiltied but I'd have to look at the timing to see if it's merely following the "cop" or if it's a bus. Moving on to doing that next.

[davesaz]

I have a guilty on Flavor Leaf

VOTE: FL

I'll let them speak

I'll let them speak

Given that it's

Flavor Leaf

that is probably a horrible idea

Damn. I’m actually a Night 1 Miller Novice Role Cop. I didn’t think anyone would target me the first night, and I’ve been claiming Miller as scum a lot early game lately.

I just did it in a game A50 and I had ss scum recently even.

UNVOTE:

I don't buy this at all but I'll hold off for clarification

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

This isn't really very strong evidence either way. Letting FL speak can be motivated by either town wanting to see if there is any reasonable explanation for a false positive or scum wanting to see if their partner's defense is any good. The vote is near the middle of the wagon so that doesn't help much either. The timing is reasonably close together so there isn't any evidence of buying time to discuss in scum thread. Not a smoking gun, can't rule out a bus.

[davesaz]

I do note that he says he had been "pushing" Vorkuta before that point

Retracting this part. Dunn pointed out that Dolly had replaced Vorkuta, but didn't actually say anything else about Vorkuta in that post.
He had mentioned Vorkuta before. So I was just plain wrong that he hadn't mentioned the slot previously.
Time is a wonderful thing, isn't it.

[davesaz]

Saying "I'll let them speak" is a weird one in that it obviously associates you with Leaf if he's lynched, and Dunn didn't need to comment that since he wasn't unvoting Leaf and no one had anyway of knowing he was online. Unless he was trying to discourage people to quick lynch him but that's unlikely.

To be fair I also said I was holding off on voting, but it was because I had several pages left to read and didn't know the vote count at the time.

[davesaz]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Dunn did not make a single post referencing or replying to FL before the vote.

[davesaz]

Saying that A50's post feels like distancing is Dunn's very first reference to that slot as well?

[davesaz]

Ugh, I'm learning to dislike both extremes in terms of game activity.
The way you ask that question gives me the heebie jeebies. Why don't you comment on it other than to say interesting?

[davesaz]

VOTE: Hectic
Yeah, that reaction to me was weird.

[davesaz]

I'm ok with PT release.
Hard to believe but I think this is the first time I've endgamed as scum. There have been team wins before but I haven't survived.

[davesaz]

I was a little surprised at how easily Reundo got townreads. And a bit worried that I'd be called out for not jumping on him for not pushing cases.
My Menalque strategy was to be what was expected while having just a tint of distrust there so it didn't come across as buddying.

I thought Hectic was the biggest danger. Pushing on Dunn as having to be the partner regardless of who else was scum was something that just happened. I tried to slip into town me and suddenly it came to me -- if Hectic vs Menalque is tvs then Dunn

has

to be scum so why not push the POE to get the easier scum first. And then nobody really bit on it and I was like, oh well guess this is going to deadline.

[davesaz]

We shot there because I interpreted Hectic's protective soft as fake. We had no way of knowing there was an actual doc, and it would have swung things totally around, agree. The followup plan was to string up Hectic for fakeclaiming, until Dolly claimed. Then I kinda wanted to lynch one, and then the other but Hectic was strong in defense.

The idea of shooting someone else did come up, I'd have to look in the thread to find out who.