Large Normal 224 | Endgame

[Hectic]

Hello, friends. I don't have a lot of experience because this is my first time posting to this Large Normal Game, so I ask you to treat me like a simple newbie.

I'm not sure if this is the right play but I'm going to claim jester, I can help everyone find the mafia but only if you promise to lynch me before the last mafia gets lynched.

So far I have read the first couple of pages of this game, and Layla is flailing after people suspected her for her RVS vote so quite suspicious of that. Norwee pushed it for good reasons but his floppity-flipping on it was weird. Zote the Fucking Mighty seems like a really strong player, I want to say something suspicious about him but I'm afraid of what he's capable of and what he'll do if I say it. Can someone else say it please?

I hope everyone enjoyed my catchup, I worked hard to make it.

[Hectic]

Hectic asked me in the mafia PT to say something about Zote. I was a bit sceptical at first, but he was adamant about it. So i guess i’ll have to.

Zote be looking kinda scummy yo. He’s just a paper tiger. All bark and no bite. We don’t want THOSE kind of people hogging up space in our overcrowded town. No sir-ee-bob.

I don't know what this person is talking about! I'm not in any Mafia PTs... I don't even know what "PT" stands for!!

But now that you say it Norwee, I actually completely agree with what you're saying on him. Like a cardboard giraffe, all card, no board. I will read the rest of the game tomorrow to see if I can confirm our theory.

[Hectic]

While you’re here thoughts on anything else? Game needs some serious work.

I'll give it one hell of read through later today. Don't worry, gamesolve by midnight or you can not lynch me to prevent me from winning.

[Hectic]

(New Zealand Time)

[Hectic]

So I'm up to page 22 so far and my biggest scumread is Norwee.
Wondering what causes that wagon to fully dissipate in the next 10 pages.
Wake's really bad as well and Norwee defending him could mean it's both.
Gotta pause now, will be posting my full thoughts when I've fully caught up.

[Hectic]

Is the amish told the greeting the thread thing?

No. It's the "My predecessor sucked and looked scummy".

And he still does.

Why?

[Hectic]

Is the amish told the greeting the thread thing?

No. It's the "My predecessor sucked and looked scummy".

Just lynched a slot that did this in a newbie, and it flipped town. How reliable is this tell?

It was a joke, Almo. I subbed in because I read Layla as probtown.
It's reliable enough.. I was once caught by it myself (You try to look like you understand why you predecessor was SR'd and you get called for it.)

But -of course- it's just like any other tell that scum "tend to" do, but not "have to" do. Like the Elli tell "if someone is playing multiple games simultaneously and is active in all but one/two of them chances are they rolled scum in this/these particular one/two".

[Hectic]

Fully caught up now. I can see why Norwee's not a wagon anymore, but I want to hear how your reads changed from knowing Tea is now Chennis, since you were basing all of you reads around scum!Tea.
Also, why don't you want to lynch Wake?

[Hectic]

Dunnstral's probably town based on meta.

[Hectic]

Oh yeah, his overall play has been scummy. What's your read of Wake though?

VOTE: PMister

[Hectic]

Dave's acting real weird. Already been mentioned why but this especially:

Deadline restarted at 3 days, and trying to run up PM doesn't seem promising at all. What are we going to learn from that?

Sure if it flips scum I'll take it, but then what?

What do you even mean by this, Dave?

[Hectic]

Why are people townreading/not scumreading Flavour Leaf?
He's been floating in and out of the game, and barely talked about specific reads.

[Hectic]

@Luca Blight
If he's scum we'd call it partner defense.
If he's town we'd call it: "Mild scumcoasting, blatant attempt at buddying, manipulative accumulation of towncred, purposefully keeping up the pretense of defending a townie with the true intention being to blame the other townies for the mislynch and pre-emptively excusing himself for scumreading them in the next day phase."

Stop buddying me, Norwee.

[Hectic]

Time to claim, PMister.

[Hectic]

I think he's lurking out of panic, guys. Is it time to use the day vig shot?

[Hectic]

I think he's lurking out of panic, guys. Is it time to use the day vig shot?

I don’t think he’s even been online since his last post. So is he lurking? Maybe. But panicky lurking?

I assume all scum come online incognito and type out a few posts, calculate the replies they'll get to those posts, and type replies to those replies out, and then come online to actually post the prepared posts.
This is because scum take 10x longer to type out natural responses, so would look suspicious if they replied in real time due to the long times between posts.

The trick fo finding scum is asking them questions they

haven't

got prepared responses to.
If you can land a question like that, scum's only option is to retreat and hide, and come back 8 hours late with a nice excuse, like "oh, I was on my phone replying to you but then I walked into my house and my friends were waiting there with a suprise birthday party, sorry."
But then it gets awkward when you use that same excuse in the timespan of a few weeks, and you have to start lying about how your family has a tradition of celebrating birthdays on the weekday you were born on, and since you were born on a Tuesday, it's your birthday every Tuesday.
Not speaking from experience or anything.

Anyway, their other option is to completely ignore the question, or answer it with a prepared response that doesn't quite fit the question.
So if someone asks PMister: "If Dave and Zote the Fucking Mighty were navy blue, and lighter colours were more town, what colour would represent Flavour Leaf + Dave + Zote as a scumteam?"
And PMister answers with:
"That's a good question. At first, I believed Luca's read of Norwee to be disingenuous and tunnely. However, he persisted once others moved off of Norwee, when there was no purpose for scum!him to continue to pressure him. And ultimately, he finally did move off on his own terms, having being satisfied with Norwee's responses. A strong townlean to be sure, but a welcome one."
Then you know something's off and you've probably caught a scum who didn't have a prepared response to your question.

[Hectic]

A Wake lynch is better than a no-lynch.

PM is never flipping scum here - look how quickly his wagon built up with zero resistance (other than me, and I know I’m not his partner).

It’s a massively convenient and easy lynch, and there are a number of dubious players on this wagon.

"I know I'm not his partner" implies that you think (or know?) he's Scum.

Reaching a little there, aren't you, Wake?

[Hectic]

I like the style of your reads, Dolly, might have to steal that in the future. Though, including how many posts you liked/disliked for each person might make it even better. E.G: Norwee +6 -3 = 3

[Hectic]

Also, rest in peace Zote and Billy. They were too good for this world.
Zote wasn't really a strong townread for people, so scum probably tried to snipe the other faction if this is multiball.

I knew I was onto something with Favour Leaf.
VOTE: Flavour Leaf

Why'd you check him, Chemist?

[Hectic]

Oh, wait. Can't someone abuse Dolly's system if they start tactically splitting or conglomeration their posts?

If they think they're saying something which may be controversial, combine everything they want to say on the matter into one post, and take the easy -1.

If they're going to say something they think will be well recieved, split their thoughts into 10 different posts, and an easy +10.

[Hectic]

I

[Hectic]

think

[Hectic]

Flavour

[Hectic]

Leaf

[Hectic]

is

[Hectic]

scum

[Hectic]

I can protect Chemist tonight, so you'll get at least one more check.

[Hectic]

Flavour Leaf's on +12. He's admitted he's scum, but I did like a lot his recent reads tbf. So by my point system, I simply cannot agree to lynching him.
Who started this wagon???? They're probably scum.

[Hectic]

I have a guilty on Flavor Leaf

VOTE: FL

Well well well well well

Maybe I won't be protecting you tonight.

[Hectic]

I dare you to do it

[Hectic]

Ha, you're dead.

[Hectic]

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

Take that, scum

.

This isn't a bad post. I also scumread Flavour Leaf.

+2

[Hectic]

Wake's anger is so over the top. I've never seen him like this when people always push him on day 1 for his non-playing.

VOTE: Wake

[Hectic]

Oh, you are Pisskop. Ok i understand.

We are ALL pisskop on this blessed day.

[Hectic]

Wake's scummier here.

a guilty.

ARE YOU SUICIDAL?

I'M TOWN.

I dunno this feels overreacty

As town id be like "ok wtf" and let it sit for a while and hope they go "sike"

Also this feels more like scum overreacting and trying to look like an enraged townie.
His first though is Dolly is a suicidal townie rather than the fact she could be scum?

[Hectic]

I don't really like what Wake is doing here, though

I don't really like what Dunnstral is doing here, though

I don't really like what Dolly is doing here, though

[Hectic]

Oh no, I have become prodded. I'll catchup soon.
I'll probably have to replace out in a few days anyway though since I'm going on holiday for a few weeks.

VOTE: Menalque for calling Norwee "Norway"

[Hectic]

I still want to lynch Wake honestly. It might just be that his playstyle completely rubs me the wrong way, but he just hasn't done enough, and I still don't like his reaction to Dolly claiming she had a guilty on him.

He's on -11 probably.

[Hectic]

Wake deserved to be lynched day 1. It was fast because everyone saw the same scummy things about his play. The fact it changed over to PM last minute like that should make Wake even more sus.

[Hectic]

How about we wait to see what Wake has in store for us today. If his reads suck we lynch him.

True that. But the fact we've had to pester him for reads/contribution until he finally gives some is noted.

[Hectic]

okay so gamestate says Luca is probably scum

pk why do you TR norway?

I have another pet SR but we should lynch Luca today prob

What's the reason for this? What about the gamestate?

[Hectic]

Splitfarvle was probably town based on his weird ping/progression on Dave. And other good scumhunting on Norwee and Luca.

[Hectic]

Menu's case on Norwee is actually pretty convincing.

VOTE: Norwee

I don't have a protect.

[Hectic]

VOTE: Wake

Turns out even Norwee is a self-voter. My faith in MS has been shattered.

[Hectic]

Menalque, Hectic, Reundo, and Dolly all were very quick to jump on the wagon, for NO reason.

Luca initiated the wagon. Tea held back.

Scum is definitely on my wagon. I don't know if it's Luca because he's obstinate and narrow-minded and has been tunneling on me all game.

But the other 4? Those I worry about the most.

I've been scumreading you all game. And was voting for you throughout yesterday, pretty sure I've given reasons too.



I'm on holiday so I won't be able to contribute much.

[Hectic]

I don’t think it’s possible to have two scum teams in a normal unless clearly stated. The only thing that’s possible is if I’m the SK, but I obviously know that’s not the case.

So you're claiming odd-night serial killer? I had faith in you, Luca.
Don't worry, I won't tell anyone if you promise not to kill me.

[Hectic]

I can't recall is wake has already claimed or not.

Can we get an update on your points totals? Those were pretty fun to look at.

[Hectic]

Where are you on holiday hectic?

JBR, Dubai. Went on a desert safari today which was pretty fun. Scuba diving tomorrow which I'm a little apprehensive for...

[Hectic]

This wagon is a joke.

There's literally no reason to even be voting me.

I'm at L-1. I'm not going to put effort into fighting this wagon because a lot of you are just dumb, and aren't listening.

Good job, Luca. You

totally

caught Scum. I don't care anymore.

This feels so unbelievably constructed and fake, though this might be my anti-Wake bias kicking in again.

[Hectic]

Why are you against lynching Wake now, Dunnstral?

[Hectic]

Yeah, Luca is basically confirmed town. He'll live till tomorrow though since I'm protecting him tonight.

[Hectic]

I think the townier slots like Reundo have a lot of room to be deepwolves

I can agree with this.

What are you two even saying here?
"The townier players can be mafia."?

Thanks for that.

[Hectic]

Does a Dolly and Wake scumteam make sense? I don't recall them interacting much but I haven't looked back to check at all. Also, Dolly's vote without pushing/scumreading Wake screams of bad bussing.

Could I commission someone to check for me please?

[Hectic]

I can't recall is wake has already claimed or not.

Can we get an update on your points totals? Those were pretty fun to look at.

Come on, Dolly. I'm waiting with baited breath for the points list's return.

[Hectic]

Annoyingly enough, Mene's predecessor was towny, and Mene's push on Norwee wasn't explicitly scummy.
So he's fine for now. @Menelque: Who you scumreading most right now?

[Hectic]

He's scumhunting less than what I'm used to, and he feels

different

this game, but I can't pinpoint anything he's done that I find scummy. Care to help me out?

[Hectic]

okay so gamestate says Luca is probably scum

pk why do you TR norway?

I have another pet SR but we should lynch Luca today prob

What's the reason for this? What about the gamestate?

Don't know if you answered this.
What made you shift focus from Luca to Norwegian?

I had been reading Norwegian's fluidity as townish without paying much attention to the context. With the context it looks much worse.

Luca convinced me look again at the wagons today and the fact he was possibly a counterwagon to wake

I remembered being pinged somewhat when I was reading the game a few days ago by Norway so I decided to deepdive his ISO, which I did, and concluded that he’s scum

What?
You thought Luca was scum because he was a counterwagon to Wake?
Or you thought he's scum because he led you towards the Norwee!scum route?

[Hectic]

Don't remember now. I checked through their ISO a few days ago, and think I agreed with most their opinions.

Care to explain 1948?

[Hectic]

Annoyingly enough, Mene's predecessor was towny

What dark place did you pull this out of? The opposite is true, split was hella scummy and Menalque is better.

I just recall agreeing with everything he was saying early on. All of his early reads made sense to me. Maybe I'l reISO him at some point if you feel so strongly against it.

Also, too early to mass claim, Luca. I can heal you tonight so it just lets scum kill the second best target, or even potentially a higher priority target if any of your proposed 5 turn out to be investigatives for example.

[Hectic]

My only doubt on Mene right now is his weird gamestate scumread on Luca. He was townreading Wake to such an extent that he thought Wake was the counterwagon to Luca? Why couldn't it have been TvT, and why is Wake the scum over Luca in the case of TvS?
His short answers to my questions on it indicate he doesn't really want to talk about it much either.

[Hectic]

Pissy summed up what I find different about Dave this game. He's less assertive and hasn't given out controversial reads.
@Dave: Enjoy your concert.

[Hectic]

Need to look into why people find Dolly scummy later.

[Hectic]

There's so many things wrong with that post.

[Hectic]

Got some time now.
I don't believe town!Wake honestly believes more scum other than Almo and Leaf were keeping him alive for some unknown secret reason, and there might be even

more

members of the scumteam who were doing the same. Why in the world would 3+ scum defend Wake like he's valuable to them?
Also, town!Gamma defending Wake has nothing to do with the other scum defending him.

Either Wake is scum who was defended by his scum buddies, or he's town and scum were off his wagon to look better and since no other scum were in danger of being lynched on counterwagons. Leaning towards the former.

VOTE: Wake

[Hectic]

Pissy summed up what I find different about Dave this game. He's less assertive and hasn't given out controversial reads.
@Dave: Enjoy your concert.

Thanks, it was great! My son's HS orchestra. His other non-HS orchestra has a concert on Sunday.

Yes, it's different. I'm very aware that nothing has really set me off this game, and it's not comfortable at all.

Nice, sounds like fun!

[Hectic]

My only doubt on Mene right now is his weird gamestate scumread on Luca. He was townreading Wake to such an extent that he thought Wake was the counterwagon to Luca? Why couldn't it have been TvT, and

why is Wake the scum over Luca in the case of TvS?

His short answers to my questions on it indicate he doesn't really want to talk about it much either.

Didn't the Wake wagon come up first?
I'm not sure about the underlined part, the first part says you think Mena thought Luca was scum over Wake.

Pedit: @Luca: For that VC look at the relative times of the first votes on you/split/wake. People talk "counter" in terms of numbers/competing wagons but timing could matter as well. Yeah, I can look for it too, possibly will.

Yeah, so if the Wake wagon came up first, why would a Luca counterwagon mean Luca was scum? Doesn't it make more sense for Wake to be scum and Luca town since he came after?

[Hectic]

Followup @Hectic -- you realize my reads were pretty awful in the other game, right? Not that it really matters, but just sayin.

Lul, true. Most of our reads were garbage that game.

[Hectic]

If you're suggesting those two wanted to keep you alive sisne you could be mislynched later, that makes a lot more sense, Wake.
But I don't think the whole of the scumteam or even more than 2 members would go out of their way to stop you being lynched for that reason alone. So I have to decide whether you actually think that's a possibility or if you're blowing this out of proportion and trying to paint two scum defending you as anything other than a negative.

[Hectic]

Woah, some great analysis from Ruendo here. Articulated my thoughts on Wake and Dave perfectly.

@Wake: You should be claiming round about now.

[Hectic]

Jeez Louise Finch, Dolly's interactions with Dunn are so scummy. Ruendo summed up why, but also how she sets that "scum trap" for Dunn where she contradicts herself in one post, and then claims scum!Dunn couldn't help but point it out when he inevitably does.

Also, Wake shouldn't be cleared off her declaring a guilty on him. The reaction was NAI and could easily be faked. In fact, I'm a little incredulous that his immediate reaction was to call her suicidal as if she was a town lying, rather than a scum faking.

I could see it being Dolly + Wake but that seems far too easy. I'd like to have both claim their roles.

[Hectic]

My only doubt on Mene right now is his weird gamestate scumread on Luca. He was townreading Wake to such an extent that he thought Wake was the counterwagon to Luca? Why couldn't it have been TvT, and

why is Wake the scum over Luca in the case of TvS?

His short answers to my questions on it indicate he doesn't really want to talk about it much either.

Didn't the Wake wagon come up first?
I'm not sure about the underlined part, the first part says you think Mena thought Luca was scum over Wake.

Pedit: @Luca: For that VC look at the relative times of the first votes on you/split/wake. People talk "counter" in terms of numbers/competing wagons but timing could matter as well. Yeah, I can look for it too, possibly will.

Yeah, so if the Wake wagon came up first, why would a Luca counterwagon mean Luca was scum? Doesn't it make more sense for Wake to be scum and Luca town since he came after?

But you're saying the opposite of the underlined part now. You asked a question why is Wake scum over Luca, and then answered it by saying he is. If you agree with it then why are you asking the question? Much confusion...

Oh, right. That should say: "why is Luca scum over Wake in the case of TvS?"

[Hectic]

Actually idk I think you might be town dave

What made you change your mind?

[Hectic]

Wake and Dolly should both claim.

+7

[Hectic]

VOTE: Dolly

Keep changing my mind about who's scummier of the two.

[Hectic]

Eh, actually. VOTE: Wake

Just reread the start of his ISO and his questioning of a possible multi ball setup.

[Hectic]

My only doubt on Mene right now is his weird gamestate scumread on Luca. He was townreading Wake to such an extent that he thought Wake was the counterwagon to Luca? Why couldn't it have been TvT, and

why is Wake the scum over Luca in the case of TvS?

His short answers to my questions on it indicate he doesn't really want to talk about it much either.

Didn't the Wake wagon come up first?
I'm not sure about the underlined part, the first part says you think Mena thought Luca was scum over Wake.

Pedit: @Luca: For that VC look at the relative times of the first votes on you/split/wake. People talk "counter" in terms of numbers/competing wagons but timing could matter as well. Yeah, I can look for it too, possibly will.

Yeah, so if the Wake wagon came up first, why would a Luca counterwagon mean Luca was scum? Doesn't it make more sense for Wake to be scum and Luca town since he came after?

But you're saying the opposite of the underlined part now. You asked a question why is Wake scum over Luca, and then answered it by saying he is. If you agree with it then why are you asking the question? Much confusion...

Oh, right. That should say: "why is Luca scum over Wake in the case of TvS?"

^Whenever you're ready, Mene.

[Hectic]

I knew I was onto something with Favour Leaf.

Hectic, can you briefly show this?

Woah, spotted this while ISOing him. I missed this, I'll try and dig it up.

[Hectic]

Why are people townreading/not scumreading Flavour Leaf?
He's been floating in and out of the game, and barely talked about specific reads.

This, which literally no one engaged me on.

[Hectic]

Hmm, actually. VOTE: Dolly

[Hectic]

The only way I will vote Luca today is if someone counter claims the A50 kill.

Fine, I'll come clean: I'm a mafia vig and I shot him in the night. I was annoyed at him bussing me and thought my best shot was to get rid of him and win solo. Luca's a jester who's very confused why no one was counterclaiming him before now.

[Hectic]

Is it normal for the game to have a Jailkeeper and a half as good Doc? I've reconsidered my read on Wake yet again. Both Leaf and Almo defending him is just too transparent if all 3 of them are scum, also Leaf seems like the kind of player to leave "traps" like that.

Don't know what to make of Dolly's claim. I'd like to hear some reasoning for why you picked Norwee, Dolly, and why didn't you bother crumbing your role?

Pissy is an interesting alternative lynch. I'll have a look at his ISO again now.

[Hectic]

Well, weve got two competing wagons, if the last 3 pages have anything to say. and im an oldschool player - i prefer there to be strong competing wagons.

Dolly today, since i am voting them, then whoever keeps making excuses for them tomorrow?

Well, weve got two competing wagons, if the last 3 pages have anything to say. and im an oldschool player - i prefer there to be strong competing wagons.

Dolly today, since i am voting them, then whoever keeps making excuses for them tomorrow?

You are voting the doc?

you claimed doc, didnt crumb it, and are getting uppity about me being a nonpresence in the game?

Why so quick to condemn Dolly? Want to give some reasons for scumreading her other than her not crumbing?

Pissy has a lackluster ISO, but I struggled to pinpoint much as scummy. His interactions and push on Norwee are bad but he did correctly read Luca when he was a viable mislynch, though if the other wagons were town, it wouldn't hurt scum!him to do that anyway.

Dave I still think could be a decent lynch. He's a useful player but I can't look past how different he's playing this game compared to the other two I've played with him.

[Hectic]

We have 2 NKs on odd nights. That makes sense for 2 protective roles. Maybe there is a strongman or something.

I never got around to crumbing I guess. Really IDK why I didn't. I noticed Vork's softclaim and I thought I would let that sit around until I needed to speak on it.

I picked norwee because he felt like a target to me. If scum do have a strongman then it probably wouldn't have mattered anyway. But that's all speculation anyhow.

But if we are to believe Luca's vig claim, one of those night kills come from town.

Why not Chemist as Ruendo mentioned?

[Hectic]

The only thing I said was when someone asked me about Vork's claim.

Lawl my internet didn't let my post go through apparently

ANYWAY
I have an N1 action/result.
Also N1 is my modifier so I'm functionally even more useless at this point.

there's one thing I wanna know from dolly though, which is this: what happened to the N0/N1 modifier thing?

There is no Night 0 modifier. I don't know what Vork was up to there.

How is this a soft claim btw? I'd get it if Vork said night 2 modifier but night 1 modifier considering you claim to be a even night doc? Struggling to see the logic in that.

Why does doc!Vork say he's only useful on night 1? That's him as a PR who can only protect on even nights attracting attention onto himself to potentially get sniped night 1.

[Hectic]

Luca hadn't claimed prior to N2.

What does that mean? You don't believe his vig claim then? If he's not a vig, your point makes sense. Otherwise, it's looking kinda townsided.

[Hectic]

We have 2 NKs on odd nights. That makes sense for 2 protective roles. Maybe there is a strongman or something.

My point is that the above and your reasoning for having 2 protectives doesn't apply if we assume Luca is a vig, and it has nothing to do with when he claimed.

I really want to believe you here, Dolly, but I'm finding it difficult right now.

[Hectic]

Maybe we should keep Dolly alive since an even night is incoming. She has a small chance to confirm herself if she successfully protects someone.

[Hectic]

We have 2 NKs on odd nights. That makes sense for 2 protective roles. Maybe there is a strongman or something.

My point is that the above and your reasoning for having 2 protectives doesn't apply if we assume Luca is a vig, and it has nothing to do with when he claimed.

I really want to believe you here, Dolly, but I'm finding it difficult right now.

We have me (doc) and a dead JK... so we have at least 2 protective roles.

I think you're misunderstanding. What I'm saying is if there were 2 kills from

anti-town

factions on odd nights, it would make sense to have 2 protectives. But since one of those kills comes from town, it makes less sense.

[Hectic]

By the way, I counterclaimed Luca's vig shot and you didn't vote him as promised.
You failed the reaction test.
Unbelievable.

[Hectic]

VOTE: Dave

Feels wrong but... [INSERT_EXPLANATION_HERE]

Pedit: Yeah, we can come back to her tomorrow after this night.

[Hectic]

The only way I will vote Luca today is if someone counter claims the A50 kill.

Fine, I'll come clean: I'm a mafia vig and I shot him in the night. I was annoyed at him bussing me and thought my best shot was to get rid of him and win solo. Luca's a jester who's very confused why no one was counterclaiming him before now.

^

[Hectic]

Interesting point, Dave.
@Dolly: Why aren't you incredulous that I too, have protects?

[Hectic]

VOTE: Wake

[Hectic]

You should be protecting Luca tonight, Dolly.
Also, your honing in on unclaimed slots as if the claimed slots are basically cleared is really weird. There's other players that were on both PM's and Norwee's wagons that have claimed VT...
and then I actually checked the wagons and realised that Dave and I were the only people who were on both wagons when the slots were lynched.
Are scum more likely to be on town wagon mislynches? I think it depends on the situation like if the counterwagon was on scum or town. If Wake is scum, it makes everyone on the PM counterwagon scummier. If Dolly is scum, it makes everyone on the Norwee wagon scummier.

[Hectic]

Fair. I was a little pinged

for reasons

on his focus on my protects rather than the ideal lynch for today which seems more pressing.

VOTE: Dave Might change back to Wake, it depends.

Still want to lynch Wake, Dave?

[Hectic]

It’s frustrating deciding who to lynch when you scumread half of the players in the game.

Perhaps it's time to use my

Thanos Snap.

ability.

[Hectic]

My only doubt on Mene right now is his weird gamestate scumread on Luca. He was townreading Wake to such an extent that he thought Wake was the counterwagon to Luca? Why couldn't it have been TvT, and

why is Wake the scum over Luca in the case of TvS?

His short answers to my questions on it indicate he doesn't really want to talk about it much either.

Didn't the Wake wagon come up first?
I'm not sure about the underlined part, the first part says you think Mena thought Luca was scum over Wake.

Pedit: @Luca: For that VC look at the relative times of the first votes on you/split/wake. People talk "counter" in terms of numbers/competing wagons but timing could matter as well. Yeah, I can look for it too, possibly will.

Yeah, so if the Wake wagon came up first, why would a Luca counterwagon mean Luca was scum? Doesn't it make more sense for Wake to be scum and Luca town since he came after?

But you're saying the opposite of the underlined part now. You asked a question why is Wake scum over Luca, and then answered it by saying he is. If you agree with it then why are you asking the question? Much confusion...

Oh, right. That should say: "why is Luca scum over Wake in the case of TvS?"

^Whenever you're ready, Mene.

@Mene

[Hectic]

Hectic, I’m voting my biggest scumread while discussing the other wagon. How is that bad? It seems you’re managed to create yet another counter to wake. Not saying you have anything to do with the other counterwagons though I have not looked.

It's not the act of you discussing it, but what you chose to discuss about it which I find odd.
It does feel really bad to lynch you over Wake though. Why am I not voting Wake again? Oh yeah, because of two scum openly defending him day 1. If there was no other scum in danger of being lynched day 1, I can see why it's in scum's favour to keep Wake around so he's mislynched on a future day. Though, having just said that, Wake did promise to power up anime style after Day 1 was over. That didn't really happen obviously, but scum had no way of annoying that his promise to provide analysis/reads and improve his slot wouldn't ring true.
Sorry, this post was just me jotting my thoughts down as they came to me.

[Hectic]

*had no way of knowing

[Hectic]

Interesting point, Dave.
@Dolly: Why aren't you incredulous that I too, have protects?

Any reason you decided to ignore this, Dolly?

[Hectic]

Hey, Dolly: Don't self-vote if you're town please, it's never the correct play. It may be frustrating to be scumread, but mafia win off of town mislynching each other, so it's simply part of the game.

Could you give us a quick shotgun reads list of everyone in order? Explanations aren't necessary but would be helpful.

[Hectic]

Still undecided between Wake and Dave. Need to hear more from both really.

[Hectic]

Ah, I get it.
*taps your nose*

VOTE: Menalque

[Hectic]

VOTE: Dolly

You didn't learn from norwee and you will just repeat the same mistake

This is on Luca.

that was the hammer.

and...

Even-Night Doc.

Nothing changes.

How many votes was Dolly on when she posted this? Did she actually believe she'd just hammered herself or is that scum fake self-hammering for some juicy AtEcred?

[Hectic]

There hasn't been a votecount for quite a while. Could we get one please, mod?

[Hectic]

Lul, Menalque has a thing for lynching protective roles, doesn't he? Though I get the logic here obviously.

Answer the question I've asked 3 times now, Mene.

[Hectic]

Mene's improved. We lynch Dave or Wake today.
Should've stopped overthinking Wake long ago tbh.
Wake for sure actually.

VOTE: Wake

[Hectic]

There's just too many things pointing towards him being scum on the top of my head, like his weird reaction to Dolly's fake check, 2 scum defending him day 1 (which is a scummy thing, and not a towny one which it can be made out to be and which I was slightly convinced of earlier), and then the general lack of reads throughout the game. Also him asking for pisskop to claim because Fish already did for weird reasoning did not feel important or genuine whatsoever.

[Hectic]

Votecount 4.06

Menalque

(3): Luca Blight, Dunnstral, Hectic

Wake88

(2): Reundo, davesaz

davesaz

(1): Tea

Dolly Parton

(1): Menalque

Not Voting

(3): Dolly Parton, Wake88, pisskop

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2019-12-18 20:30:00)

That's Wake on L-1.

[Hectic]

Your frustration at Luca and your explanation at how pushing Norwee makes you town. Though I have no previous meta with you so don't know why I'm believing you so easily. Sounds legit I guess.

Mind hammering Wake? Kinda want to see the flip when I wake up tomorrow.

[Hectic]

You know what to do, Dolly.

"taps head with nose"

[Hectic]

"taps head with nose"

*taps your nose with my knee*

[Hectic]

Congrats guys.

You got me. I was totally Scum.

Thank Luca for doing an excellent job catching Scum for good reasons.

Nice of you to be so humble and graceful in defeat, man.
You know, I had doubts about you this game, but if you're scum, it explains everything.
Pleasure playing with you, Wake. You're the best.

[Hectic]

VOTE: Dolly

You didn't learn from norwee and you will just repeat the same mistake

This is on Luca.

that was the hammer.

and...

Even-Night Doc.

Nothing changes.

How many votes was Dolly on when she posted this? Did she actually believe she'd just hammered herself or is that scum fake self-hammering for some juicy AtEcred?

I knew it wasn't a hammer. I just wanted to see if we could get anything out of it. Nothing notable in the reactions imo.

I really didn't like this from Dolly yesterday but didn't want to say anything since I didn't fancy dying in the night. She's claiming she had a burst of frustration and self-voted, but is also claiming that she lied about it being a hammer for reactions?
Nah. I think she's scum AtEing and tried to make it look like she thought she'd hammered herself, and is going back on it now when called out on how she thought she'd done that, since there hadn't been a votecount for a while before that.

VOTE: Dolly

[Hectic]

I think it's mass claim time.

Dunn -> Reundo -> Hectic -> Menal

is my proposed order

Why would you like Mene to claim last?

[Hectic]

I targeted Luca last night. Weird that scum didn't shoot there.

Why is that weird? Shouldn't they know your doctor claim is genuine, so you would protect Luca?

[Hectic]

One thing that doesn't make sense if Dolly is scum is them leaving the vig alive while we're on even numbers. Having a vig alive is so good because they can shoot for free without consequence, since it's MyLo with 2 scum alive for both 5 or 6 players.

UNVOTE: Dolly

Gonna think this over when I have time actually.

[Hectic]

My guess for now is Dolly and Pissy.

[Hectic]

I targeted Luca last night. Weird that scum didn't shoot there.

Why is that weird? Shouldn't they know your doctor claim is genuine, so you would protect Luca?

Well, I had to protect Luca because apparently I almost got lynched for not targeting the ocnftown N2.

Exactly, everyone expected you to protect Luca if your claim is true. So why would it be weird for scum to not shoot there? Isn't it likely their shot would be blocked?

[Hectic]

I think it's mass claim time.

Dunn -> Reundo -> Hectic -> Menal

is my proposed order

Why would you like Mene to claim last?

It just what I felt like. What order do you recommend?

Does this mean you townread Mene the most out of the four?

[Hectic]

Dolly's so confusing. Most of her actions scream scum, but her tone has towny/genuine vibes at times. Also, she may not be scum with Pissy since she was pushing him yesterday. Need to look back at that and see how likely Pissy was of being lynched when she was pushing him.

@Dolly: Answer the question above, and why you aren't suspicious of me having protects when you come back please.

[Hectic]

VOTE: Menalque

Just noticed the deadline is almost here.

So why did you vote Mene here yesterday if you townread him?

[Hectic]

My guess for now is Dolly and Pissy.

why pisskop?

Mostly PoE, but his posts have been scummier than others here. If Dolly flips scum, will look for associations properly then.

[Hectic]

I've got a monster role which has a mind of it's own. It'll probably claim whenever it feels like it.

Nothing's changed in terms of who I want to lynch today.

[Hectic]

V/LAish until the 29th. PM me on AOL if it's anything urgent.

[Hectic]

I'm not really believing it though, that's the problem.

[Hectic]

No one wants to get their hands dirty, eh? Fine, I'll pull the trigger, you cowards.

VOTE: Dolly

[Hectic]

Huh. Sorry, Dolly and unlucky, Luca.

Kinda awkward, there's 3 townlean/reads and 1 scumlean left in the final four from my perspective. Without doing any rereading, my guess right now would be Dave + Dunnstral. Ruendo is towniest.

[Hectic]

Oh, and in case anyone's forgotten: This is Lylo so no hasty votes.

[Hectic]

Dave is probably still scum for how differently he's acted this game.

[Hectic]

What do you mean? The day was coming to a close and it was pretty clear we were lynching Dolly.

[Hectic]

ah fuck this is probably right

VOTE: dolly

that's L-1

I thought you had similar thoughts after I saw this.

[Hectic]

Hmm, want to say more on this but I'll wait until Mene replies.

[Hectic]

Luca when are you back?

Why would I have posted this if I wanted day to end prematurely?

Good point.

@Dave: That wasn't serious shade/justification. Just joking around.

It seemed right when I did it, but perhaps it was a little premature. No reason to scumread me for it though. Dolly was almost always going to be the lynch, and scum!me had no reason to try and close the day out as fast possible.

[Hectic]

I’m probably voting you like 90% of the time here so if you’re town be convincing on why town!you ever does that

I'm pinged by Mene's confidence on this. Feels like he rearing up for another tunnel, similar to Norwee. It's also a lousy reason to suddenly flip his read on me imo.

If it is Mene, it's probably with Dave, since Dave was most widely scumread out of us 5 yesterday, so Mene would have to find another scumread that he's confident enough about so that he could convince others to lynch them over Dave.

[Hectic]

Well, then you're throwing or scum. Explain why hammering slightly prematurely, when the resolution of the day would almost certainly not have changed, makes me so much scummier in your eyes.

[Hectic]

No, it really didn't at the time. It didn't help that Dolly asked me to hammer her as well if I wasn't going to change my mind.
It was stupid, but I fail to see how it's so scum-motivated that Mene has flipped his read and wants to vote me solely because of it. Mene and Dave is still my solve for now. Note, I haven't really done any rereading or ISOing since the start of this day.

[Hectic]

If I was really scum wanting to cut discussion short before Luca could come back, would it really be worth all the negative attention to hammer early like that?

No, and it wouldn't even change anything because Dolly was definitely gonna be lynched. My premature hammer is just an error of judgement and nothing more. And Mene trying to paint it as much more scum-motivated than it should be is scummy.

[Hectic]

I'll probably be voting Mene now, but will do some rereading and wait for Dunns to chip in before I make my decision.

[Hectic]

What are your thoughts on remaining scum, Ruendo?

[Hectic]

Fair enough. I honestly just thought it was the right time to hammer her, and I was performing the statua quo. I didn't think I had to justify the vote, so I just joked around as I hammered her.

[Hectic]

What's your solve, Dave?

[Hectic]

I'm pretty much writing off Ruendo as town here, but maybe that's a bad idea.

[Hectic]

This is quite the quandry.

I had trouble with Hectic's reaction to Dolly's (lack of) reaction to the protective soft. The way I remember it he seemed kinda wishy-washy on the lack of reaction, but also unwilling to either confirm or deny the soft. But then still willing to follow through with the lynch. I kinda agreed that Dolly's claimed targets were pretty oddball and the kind of things that scum would say to keep a fakeclaim alive. On the flip side of that, I tend to think err on the side of caution when working with a claimed doc, the scum kinda need to kill it eventually anyway. Don't know if this is scum squeezing through a lynch on the doc, or just town who doesn't take the same cautious approach that I do with claimed PRs.

I prompted her on it like 4 times iirc. I don't know why I stopped after she continued to ignored it, guess I just forgot to.

Speaking of, it's time to mass claim. My proposed order is Mene>Dunn>Reundo, and I'll go in wherever people think is best.

[Hectic]

Hectic, I'm not entirely convinced you're town here. I'd think as town you'd be more likely to think through the implications before hammering Dolly, especially considering Luca was going to be NK'ed 99% of the time. I agree that Mena's assertion is a bit too strong, but I do think your hammer was more scum than town motivated and at the very least it was bad town play, and I don't think Mena is scummy solely because of it. I only really see him opening this way today as scum if the team's him/davesaz, which I'm not feeling atm.

Yeah, it was bad town play. Also, I came online and didn't look at timestamps, just got the feeling nothing had been said for a while and it was time. I don't understand why it's so beneficial for me to do as scum though, knowing I'd draw this attention if I knew it wasn't the right thing to do.

Mene and Dave is exactly what I think right now. My reason for Dunn being town is based on previous meta where he does very little scumhunting and is a lot more passive as scum. But he's probably aware enough of his meta at this point to amend that, so... something something

[Hectic]

I'm pretty much writing off Ruendo as town here, but maybe that's a bad idea.

Also, it's pinging me how before this you haven't even really suspected me much at all, and I get the feeling you've been buddying me.

Oh, and just a side-note my name's actually spelled Reundo. Don't know if that was intentional or not.

That's because you've been my strongest townread for a while (outside of Luca after he claimed vig). That was unintentional btw, I've been spelling it like that the entire game lol.

[Hectic]

So coming into today I thought the team was likely davesaz/Dunn but that's a little mmmm considering davesaz's now pushing Dunn apparently, but on the other hand I don't think it's a very convincing push either. I think it's a bit more likely dave would push on Hectic if that was the team but I don't think a bus is entirely implausible either considering Hectic also threw that team out earlier. Actually, I think it's a bit weird dave didn't mention Hectic's hammer at all in his read of him considering that's literally the only thing that was talked about today, but I'm doubting they're a team together. I'm leaning towards dave/Dunn atm, but I'd need to re-read the game again later. It's either that or Hectic/Dunn, and maybe it could be dave/Mena too but I'm thinking Mena's probably town.

Could I hear your reasons for the Dunnst scumread?
The only

real push

I've seen which would be hard to justify changing thus far is Mene's push on me, due to the confidence he's presented it with. Everything else could easily be bussing, since it's easy to reconsider or slightly change reads at this stage.

[Hectic]

Feeling more and more that this has to be scum, I just don't see Mene going from townleaning me to being certain I'm scum over that hammer, and he hasn't responded to any of my questions on

why

he's so certain about it. I don't want to repeat myself do I'll link the posts: 2412, 2415, or 2433.

Also, he says he's going to vote me before Dunn has even said anything today. Town!him would be a little more cautious than that I feel.
You need to reconsider your read on Mene, Reundo. Are you only townreading him because of his push on Norwee?

[Hectic]

I mean I’ve told you like twice to towncase yourself if you’re town and you haven’t

I don't know how to towncase myself, and it'd probably be a waste of time, how would me explaining my own actions as town do anything?

There’s no point in me explaining prior to voting you bc if you’re town it’s game over and if you’re scum then I’ll be 1v1ing you anyway

How about so we could talk about your explanation? You're so set on this that you'd chance insta-losing the game over bothering explaining this?

[Hectic]

I don't know how to towncase myself, and I don't feel like putting that kind of effort in to try and change your mind when you're probably scum who's mind can't be changed.

You explaining why I'm scum for my hammer would take a whole lot less effort than me towncasing myself, and you expecting me to do that while you can't even be bothered to explain yourself is another scummy thing.

[Hectic]

Err because scum has significant incentive to end day early before conf!town could give their final reads, especially when conf!town had just been asked after?

But if I was aware of the fact that I was cutting of conf!town's final reads, I would also be aware that my hammer would be perceived as scummy. And making myself more scummy for that reason is really not worth it.

What's more likely is that regardless of my alignment is that I didn't realise the hammer would be perceived as scummy and that I was cutting of Luca's final reads.

The hammer is completely NAI. I wouldn't do it as scum to draw all this attention, I'd only do it as scum if I didn't realise that fact, and the same is true for if I'm town. It could even be argued that it's slightly town-indicative because scum would be more careful at not drawing that sort of negative attention like that, and would be more likely to realise hammering was a mistake and anti-town.

[Hectic]

It's confusing that both Dave and Mene are okay with lynching Dunn now. It supports my Dave + Mene theory but bussing is a massive possibility at this stage so I'm not going to let myself be too confused by this. Ruendo, I might just sheep your vote because I'm genuinely terrible at this kinda situation. I know this looks scummy but I have a bad track record and I like Reundo enough to do this.

[Hectic]

I think I agree that Dunn is the most likely to be scum here

What happened to voting for me 90% of the time? Why is Dunnstra most likely now?

[Hectic]

I really want to vote Mene. Waiting on you, Reundo.

[Hectic]

I wonder if scum goes for the win here or tried to create a false dichotomy

Also, I really dislike this post.

[Hectic]

So tempting.

[Hectic]

I think it's Mene and Dave so I would settle for lynching Dave, Reundo. I was scumreading Dave for the past two day phases for the same reasons you said above, in that a lot his analysis is not substantial and he feels different to his usual town assertive and analytical self.

Regarding my townread on you, you being cautious about me buddying you only strengthened it, and my track record in LyLo situations is garbage (misfired last two games), hence why I made that comment about sheeping you.

[Hectic]

Would still rather lynch Mene simply for how he's treated my slot this day phase, and the weird switch to Dunn from me for what I see is very little reason. He was incredibly engaged while pushing Norwee, and now has seemingly lost interest in LyLo when it's most important? Kinda convenient.
I might be a little biased in this read though and it's hard not to be.

[Hectic]

Saying "I'll let them speak" is a weird one in that it obviously associates you with Leaf if he's lynched, and Dunn didn't need to comment that since he wasn't unvoting Leaf and no one had anyway of knowing he was online. Unless he was trying to discourage people to quick lynch him but that's unlikely.

[Hectic]

Hmm, interesting. So is Dunnst your preffered lynch right now, Dave?

[Hectic]

Luca's prophecy was right. What were those tunnels, Mene.

[Hectic]

Goes without saying but well played, Reundo.

[Hectic]

By voting you, I too, have sinned, Norwee.

Are you an alt, Dolly? Apologies for the hammer.

[Hectic]

Lul, Luca really does not hold back post game.