Jigsaw's Revenge - Game Over

[Battle Mage]

Unvote, Vote: BBMolla

I'll lead the charge again then...

ABR tomorrow please, for the love of God...

[Battle Mage]

@BM You only find me scummy because you think ABR is so confirmed scum that anyone defending him must be doing so disingenuously. I'm finding it increasingly pointless to try and debate with you

You allow your own tunnel vision on your ABR read and setup spec to shape the way you view the entire game. For example, my defense of ABR is somehow invalid because I townread him prior to having that reaction to you pushing him. I townread him before, i am still townreading him now. it makes sense to anyone who isnt currently locked into a deathtunnel

I'm not going to explain it at length again.

Vecna said he thought ABR was scummier before and townier now.
You said Vecna's position reflected yours.
It doesn't - you never thought ABR was scummy.
Therefore you didn't read what Vecna said, and just used it to defend ABR because it was the nearest thing available and all you are concerned with is defending ABR at all costs.

Therefore, you aren't really thinking and engaging with this - you're simply plucking things at random to defend him, even when there's no need!
It isn't credible behaviour from somebody town, it's a parody. The only conceivable explanation could be that you are a cop with an innocent investigation on him, but that isn't compatible with times earlier in the day where you've said he "could" be scum. So your story doesn't add up.

We don't need to debate it further, I've definitely heard enough to form a view. Vote for 1 of my 3 options I've given you.

[Battle Mage]

Unvote, Vote: BBMolla

I'll lead the charge again then...

ABR tomorrow please, for the love of God...

Total capitulation. Pathetic.

Now now now
No more Mr Hyde
Albert B. Rampage
He's never satisfied

[Battle Mage]

Unvote, Vote: BBMolla

I'll lead the charge again then...

ABR tomorrow please, for the love of God...

Total capitulation. Pathetic.

bro....

What? I thought he meant it when he said I was scum and wasn't changing his vote forever. I didn't know forever just meant 48h.

Don't worry, you ain't gonna make it anywhere close to endgame after today, so your time will come, thanks to me.

[Battle Mage]

you've changed your tune. not so long ago you REALLY did not want to be lynched today. so excuse me if I don't buy the false bravado and laissez faire attitude now.

[Battle Mage]

MorningTweet, I didn't discredit you, you discredited yourself. I don't care about you beating this dead horse, everyone else has moved on. are you going to vote for somebody? or do anything besides be a cheerleader for ABR? I'll settle for the pretense of scumhunting.

[Battle Mage]

MorningTweet, I didn't discredit you, you discredited yourself. I don't care about you beating this dead horse, everyone else has moved on. are you going to vote for somebody? or do anything besides be a cheerleader for ABR? I'll settle for the pretense of scumhunting.

(一ω一)

you make me want to take a dozen naps

Spoiler: Beating a dead horse

only just noticed this.

Why are you so sure ABR is town?

This is probably the best way i can put it BM. if he is scum he is a good actor

I don't believe you. You've always maintained he was town: when he was acting erratic, when he was acting stable, angry, happy, indifferent.

@BM You only find me scummy because you think ABR is so confirmed scum that anyone defending him must be doing so disingenuously. I'm finding it increasingly pointless to try and debate with you

You said Vecna's position reflected yours.
It doesn't - you never thought ABR was scummy.
Therefore you didn't read what Vecna said, and just used it to defend ABR because it was the nearest thing available and all you are concerned with is defending ABR at all costs.

Therefore, you aren't really thinking and engaging with this - you're simply plucking things at random to defend him, even when there's no need!

No, i quoted the part where vecna said that ABR would have to be a really good actor if he is scum

Which i totally agree with. You are trying your very best to discredit my position not wanting to vote ABR because you literally cannot see any situation other than A.) im scum or B.) i lack critical reasoning and just go with what other people think

MorningTweet, I didn't discredit you, you discredited yourself. I don't care about you beating this dead horse, everyone else has moved on. are you going to vote for somebody? or do anything besides be a cheerleader for ABR? I'll settle for the pretense of scumhunting.

All im doing is responding to you. why ask me why i think ABR is town or tell me you don't believe im being genuine, if you also feel like we're beating a dead horse? furthermore, i would never participate in an act of animal cruelty

dont try to make me feel like im dragging this issue on and on, and being so terribly useless just to get me on your new bandwagon. it's just sort of annoying at best

i'm specifically

not

asking you about ABR, to try and get you to comment on

anything else

. As I've said already, I don't believe you'd find this difficult as town.

[Battle Mage]

This game is confirmed Role Madness, there are no Vanilla Townies or Mafia Goons.

Has this been addressed, because I don’t see how a neighbour is a PR in a role madness game.

it is true we haven't had any other straight neighbour claims

[Battle Mage]

This game is confirmed Role Madness, there are no Vanilla Townies or Mafia Goons.

Has this been addressed, because I don’t see how a neighbour is a PR in a role madness game.

Considering momo role was neighbour, it's possible

going to reread later but for now:

VOTE: Drixx

erm….momo was scum

If Drixx is scum, I'm considering this the fluke of the year, because there's nothing about his play which suggests we should be lynching him today.

[Battle Mage]

I'm surprised people aren't talking about the one actually scummy thing I've seen from ABR.

?

I'll get there when I'm not mobile posting later.

@BM, Drixx, MT, Molla

I would like a full reads list please. Explanations are a plus but at least town to scum.

I've like, already done one. Several times. Have I not been clear about who I want to lynch today?

[Battle Mage]

Main takeaways from this:

MorningTweet has U-turned on her neighbour Blake Belladonna, who she earlier thought was probably town or something? Not sure what has led to that, given Blake has barely posted? Could do with explanation.

I'm somehow less townie than VaultDweller?? Little bit harsh, given I'm the towniest townie of all.

Surprised at her view that "if ABR was town, someone on the scumteam would try to bring him down" when ABR has, so far, been untouched by any of the traps at night. Add it to the list of weak ABR defences which don't stack up.

Overall, pleasing to see some actual suspects here.

@Eddie Cane

Spoiler: Readslist

BAT //

Morning Tweet I

TOWN BLOCK //

VaultDweller
Battle Mage I

HEAVY TOWN LEAN //

Albert B. Rampage
Vecna

TOWN LEAN //

GeorgeBailey
GuiltyLion I
Gamma Emerald

UNSURE //

iDanyboy
Davesaz
pisskop
BBmolla

SOME BAD LOOKS //

Drixx
Blake Belladonna

Players are ordered within their tier as well from most town to least town (or in iDany's case, how much i want to lynch him atm)
i put tick marks next to players showing how many games they've been in

-===================-

Spoiler: iDany

Very scummy slot. I want iDany to keep living on and give us more cop results, though. Will reconsider in the days to come.

Spoiler: davesaz

Dave is more here because i don’t explicitly townread him more than anything. I put him above my other unsures. Tbh? Reading through his recent ISO actually doesn’t look that bad. He makes good observations at least

A good few of his posts are explaining why he joined the Hectic wagon. Which is fair enough.

There isn’t enough for me to form a solid townread on dave yet though


2395 - Dave explains he voted Hectic because he thought hectic was scum lying about not being able to see the case against him. And also wanted to help get some wagon VCA going.

I do worry about leaning on the Hectic wagon too heavily, since at the time I did give some thought to joining it. Ultimately i liked momo’s better, but there is certainly town on Hectic and we need to find that


2418 - Dave feels it makes sense that iDany’s claim would be a cop when he’s in a cop PT

I agree


2470 - Dave points out that Pine was a double neighbour, and he finds it suspicious people are making a big deal out of the neighbour claim.

again I’m inclined to agree.

Spoiler: pisskop

Kinda bad hop on to ABR in 2063. Did he really think that ABR accidentally claimed VT..? i would expect him to think about how unlikely ABR accidentally fakeclaims a role that doesnt exist

2022 raises a good point and could possibly explain his progression on ABR.

1890 oh apparently pisskop is, in fact, not interested in lynching ABR at this point when there was pressure on ABR. This suggests that pisskop did hop on ABR thinking that ABR claimed something invalid. ok

1872 - I like his willingness to vote Blake or iDany, they are good preferences

pisskop seems generally excited about getting lynches and competing wagons going. Tonally i had a slight townread enough to put him higher than some others. For a large part i find pisskop hard to read so it is partially just a PoE as well

There is this whole d1 interaction where apparently pisskop lied about his PT status? Haven't gone back to actually deeply read that but it could be of some use.

Spoiler: BBMolla

Vecna informed me that BBMolla wasn’t really that invested in Doubles Mafia, and was more or less forced to post. Thank ye for the info


1807 / 2010 - “Can we lynch Gamma / iDany”

iDany was fair at the time. Gamma too, although now i’m starting to think both these individuals may be town and just earlier lynchbait :O


2120 - “ABR is not a VT, he’s a neighbour”

Thank you. I still think pisskop thinking he slipped VT is weird.


2354 / 2407 - “I’ll do stuff” …… “If I were scum I’d be doing stuff”

What


2455 - BBMolla says we can hammer him since he’s already claimed and he doesn’t care

What


2480 - “Vault Dweller and iDany is scum”

(*ﾉω-)


2487 / 2488 / 2489 - BBMolla doesn’t seem to get why Vault is nearly confirmed town

Unsure whether to attribute this to being a faked act or simply BBMolla not really reading into it very closely. His posts prior would certainly suggest he’s not having a lot of time to engage with the game

Spoiler: Drixx

Wary of his suspicion on Vecna and Battle Mage. He seems to be getting the opposite vibes from it that i’d expect.

He ALSO gets the opposite reaction from iDany’s claim, thinking it makes iDany more scum that he claimed cop.. Dunno what to make of this. Why does Drixx suspect all of those who claim?

Not BBMolla’s claim though. Nor has Drixx ever expressed a suspicion on BBMolla. Drixx doesn’t have anywhere in his ISO (that is semi recent) where he outlines what his reads are. He just seems to comment on BM, iDany, Vecna, and Vault (suspicions on all 4).

So with my PoE plus his gameplay, I do not have a lot of confidence in this slot being town

938 - Drixx asking why people townread Hectic

Spoiler: Blake

1089 - “Apologies, I meant to unvote last time I visited the thread.”

I may be biased, but this sounds kinda like it could be a faked thought process. Drixx wasn’t in any kind of pressure. There didn’t really seem to be any reason to say this. Definitely a nitpick though. This post also contributes to a large trend of Blake saying she’ll go to this game but not really ending up getting to it sadly


1300 - Blake says the Drixx and Elsa wagons were acceptable, but the Battle Mage and Vecna wagons were awkward. Her townread on Hectic is going down, and she feels like she should be townreading Morning by now. Dave is unlikely scum if Morning is scum.

Oooh. Hectic was in her highest townreads in 512, but it seemed to progressively melt away. You can see this process in 801, where she comments her trust in Hectic is dwindling. She does comment she has a lot of townreads though


1384 / 1392 / 1398 - Blake makes very sure over multiple posts that ABR did not declare his plan in the neighbourhood to fake push Hectic then turn on momo.

Farside actually points out to Blake that it should be obvious that ABR didn’t spoil the plan to his neighbourhood. I tend to agree. This could be Blake wanting to fake exhibit a sense of cautiousness


1687 - Readslist

She townbins BBMolla and townreads dave + Drixx. I wonder if she feels she can freely townread her partners and use her reputation as a good town player to have people sheep her.

Morning and ABR are her nullreads. Hm okay. I’d kind of expect someone on the scumteam to try and place paranoia on ABR if ABR is town.

And then she pushes Gamma and iDany as being her highest scumreads, voting Gamma. I wonder what made Gamma more scummy than iDany..?


1741 - Claims nothing ABR has done is town

Can see this coming from a town perspective as well as a scum one. ABR has made really controversial statements surrounding the neighbourhoods. Still, if ABR is town, i’d expect someone on the scumteam to try and bring him down


I think her defense on Xtoxm could have had scummy intent. Most of the game kinda just went with the flow assuming BM had some good information. I admit that i did townread Xtoxm and i wanted to defend him too, though

The replaceout is curious but i won’t really focus on it too much. Blake never had a chance to comment on BM’s case on ABR which is a shame..

Overall i could very well see Blake scum with at least a couple in BBMolla/dave/Drixx, possibly iDany!scum as a bus or simply iDany!town. And this would make ABR town as well i think.

[Battle Mage]

I'm surprised people aren't talking about the one actually scummy thing I've seen from ABR.

Is it the one where he manipulates people into sheeping him by threatening anyone who doesn't go along?

Nope.

Feel free to share it - I'm still keen to lynch scum today, although I may be the only one!

[Battle Mage]

VOTE: BBMolla

You've gone for two of the easiest scumreads in the game

Hey MorningTweet, MorningTweet!

2 of your tiddlytoppiest townies are voting for BBMolla. Maybe you should join us?

Best ask ABR for permission first.

[Battle Mage]

MorningTweet has U-turned on her neighbour Blake Belladonna, who she earlier thought was probably town or something?

MT said from the start she didn't know how to read Blake. Never said Blake was town.

if so, she never said or indicated she thought she was scum, so my suspicion stands.

[Battle Mage]

This game is confirmed Role Madness, there are no Vanilla Townies or Mafia Goons.

Has this been addressed, because I don’t see how a neighbour is a PR in a role madness game.

Considering momo role was neighbour, it's possible

going to reread later but for now:

VOTE: Drixx

erm….momo was scum

If Drixx is scum, I'm considering this the fluke of the year, because there's nothing about his play which suggests we should be lynching him today.

he's also dead, which confirms that neighbour is a possible role in this role madness game, thereby answering iDany's post. so.. yeah

your defense of drixx reminds me of something i could say to you about ABR. as I said i haven't really looked thru yet but my inital lynchpool is something like Drixx/dave/Blake/pisskop/BBMolla

BBMolla? great, time to put the chips in! I'll take Pisskop as a compromise if absolutely necessary.

I think you misunderstood my point about Momo - he wasn't a normal neighbour, he was a

scum

neighbour. So that is a "role" which is not a standard vanilla role. Clearly there are a couple of those in the game, so it seems obtuse to suggest the existence of scum in the hoods proves there must be vanilla town neighbours in the game. Personally, I don't buy it, and once again you've made a deduction which seems objectively unlikely and portrayed it as fact. This is not conduct which feels protown to me.

[Battle Mage]

IF I HAD ONE

Has ABR blacklisted you from the scumchat? Sorry, couldn't resist

[Battle Mage]

Battle Mage I’m not scum

Ok dude, would you be up for lynching GuiltyLion instead?

[Battle Mage]

Main takeaways from this:

1. MorningTweet has U-turned on her neighbour Blake Belladonna, who she earlier thought was probably town or something? Not sure what has led to that, given Blake has barely posted? Could do with explanation.

2. I'm somehow less townie than VaultDweller?? Little bit harsh, given I'm the towniest townie of all.

3. Surprised at her view that "if ABR was town, someone on the scumteam would try to bring him down" when ABR has, so far, been untouched by any of the traps at night. Add it to the list of weak ABR defences which don't stack up.

Overall, pleasing to see some actual suspects here.

1. No..?

2. Sorry BM i still love you though <3

3. By bring him down I mean in thread, not at night. Sort of a baseless theory sure. I just have a sneaking suspicion that opposing ABR's leadership is something somebody on the scumteam would have to do at some point. I can see him as being easier to oppose in day rather than just killed at night

If I was scum, and ABR was town, I guarantee I'd have trapped him on Night 1. No scumteam wants a loud influential townie running the show. And the beauty of having night-kills is that you can get rid of people like that easily. So I think your assertion here is incredible.

re: Blake - it would be helpful for you to explain why her not posting made you change your read on her to such a significant extent? You indicated her replacing out was suspicious, so maybe start there.

[Battle Mage]

he's also dead, which confirms that neighbour is a possible role in this role madness game, thereby answering iDany's post. so.. yeah

your defense of drixx reminds me of something i could say to you about ABR. as I said i haven't really looked thru yet but my inital lynchpool is something like Drixx/dave/Blake/pisskop/BBMolla

BBMolla? great, time to put the chips in! I'll take Pisskop as a compromise if absolutely necessary.

I think you misunderstood my point about Momo - he wasn't a normal neighbour, he was a

scum

neighbour. So that is a "role" which is not a standard vanilla role. Clearly there are a couple of those in the game, so it seems obtuse to suggest the existence of scum in the hoods proves there must be vanilla town neighbours in the game. Personally, I don't buy it, and once again you've made a deduction which seems objectively unlikely and portrayed it as fact. This is not conduct which feels protown to me.

"Scum" is an alignment. "Neighbour" is a role. The fact he was on the scumteam does not make his role somehow more special than a town neighbour.

Momo's flip proves that neighbour is an acceptable role in this role madness.

I think of being on a scumteam as being a power role, coz u get to do shit, innit?

Seriously though, the point is not whether it's conceptually possible to have a town neighbour, but whether you actually believe there is 1. I do not. You evidently do. But we are getting to a point where it becomes less and less likely as more and more claims come out.

Maybe we can cut to the chase - if ABR purported to be the only vanilla town neighbour in the entire game, would you believe him?

[Battle Mage]

I've like, already done one. Several times. Have I not been clear about who I want to lynch today?

You want to lynch ABR, and Molla, and apparently as of the newest page GL, and I believe you gave Pisskop and someone else as compromise lynches. I do not remember seeing a full reads list from you other than EoD1

ISO me

[Battle Mage]

This game is confirmed Role Madness, there are no Vanilla Townies or Mafia Goons.

Just a reminder that this is the mods definition so a neighbor is perfectly acceptable

ABR might be scum regardless of that but a case built on that is foolish

FOOOOLIOIISSHH

I think BM is the one using that as evidence against ABR

This is a misrepresentation, I've been clear on my view that I don't believe there are plain old town neighbours in the game. Conceptually there could be. But I don't think there is. So ABR would then be lying, duh.

[Battle Mage]

Main takeaways from this:

1. MorningTweet has U-turned on her neighbour Blake Belladonna, who she earlier thought was probably town or something? Not sure what has led to that, given Blake has barely posted? Could do with explanation.

2. I'm somehow less townie than VaultDweller?? Little bit harsh, given I'm the towniest townie of all.

3. Surprised at her view that "if ABR was town, someone on the scumteam would try to bring him down" when ABR has, so far, been untouched by any of the traps at night. Add it to the list of weak ABR defences which don't stack up.

Overall, pleasing to see some actual suspects here.

1. No..?

2. Sorry BM i still love you though <3

3. By bring him down I mean in thread, not at night. Sort of a baseless theory sure. I just have a sneaking suspicion that opposing ABR's leadership is something somebody on the scumteam would have to do at some point. I can see him as being easier to oppose in day rather than just killed at night

If I was scum, and ABR was town, I guarantee I'd have trapped him on Night 1. No scumteam wants a loud influential townie running the show. And the beauty of having night-kills is that you can get rid of people like that easily. So I think your assertion here is incredible.

re: Blake - it would be helpful for you to explain why her not posting made you change your read on her to such a significant extent? You indicated her replacing out was suspicious, so maybe start there.

ABR is like, the #1 person I'd expect to be protected. Do you always nightkill the most widely townread (or at least most influential) townie? I wouldn't.

plus as we found out, ABR did get protected lmao

As scum I would probably avoid ABR n1, then shade him really hard d2 and onwards in order to make protectives second guess themselves, and then get him lynched (or possibly nightkill him if his reads are too accurate and people are still mostly trusting him)

Where are you getting the idea that I

ever

trusted Blake? Not only that, but I said her replace out isn't something I want to focus on.

ABR hasn't been the most widely townread player at any point in the game. Except in your own mind.

Influential, absolutely. But I don't buy that he wasn't hit because he was protected, we've had loads of traps each night, you don't think there could have been MORE surely?? Again, this stretches credulity.

And I don't believe for a second you would employ that strategy as scum, from what I've seen of your play here.

[Battle Mage]

he's also dead, which confirms that neighbour is a possible role in this role madness game, thereby answering iDany's post. so.. yeah

your defense of drixx reminds me of something i could say to you about ABR. as I said i haven't really looked thru yet but my inital lynchpool is something like Drixx/dave/Blake/pisskop/BBMolla

BBMolla? great, time to put the chips in! I'll take Pisskop as a compromise if absolutely necessary.

I think you misunderstood my point about Momo - he wasn't a normal neighbour, he was a

scum

neighbour. So that is a "role" which is not a standard vanilla role. Clearly there are a couple of those in the game, so it seems obtuse to suggest the existence of scum in the hoods proves there must be vanilla town neighbours in the game. Personally, I don't buy it, and once again you've made a deduction which seems objectively unlikely and portrayed it as fact. This is not conduct which feels protown to me.

"Scum" is an alignment. "Neighbour" is a role. The fact he was on the scumteam does not make his role somehow more special than a town neighbour.

Momo's flip proves that neighbour is an acceptable role in this role madness.

I think of being on a scumteam as being a power role, coz u get to do shit, innit?

Seriously though, the point is not whether it's conceptually possible to have a town neighbour, but whether you actually believe there is 1. I do not. You evidently do. But we are getting to a point where it becomes less and less likely as more and more claims come out.

Maybe we can cut to the chase - if ABR purported to be the only vanilla town neighbour in the entire game, would you believe him?

Are you forgetting that Pine was a town neighbour?

I would expect somewhere between maybe 1-3 town neighbours. It will not surprise me AT ALL if there is multiple. 75% of the game is in PTs.

Pine was a double neighbour. His special ability was being in 2 hoods. Let's not go round in circles on this please.

[Battle Mage]

I've like, already done one. Several times. Have I not been clear about who I want to lynch today?

You want to lynch ABR, and Molla, and apparently as of the newest page GL, and I believe you gave Pisskop and someone else as compromise lynches. I do not remember seeing a full reads list from you other than EoD1

ISO me

Quote it please, not seeing it.

Also, I remember you doing some in-depth setup spec about amount of scum per hood; I asked in my hood and they said there's no list of who's in it, could you quote that stuff again please? I'm I think its called police officer or FBI or w.e.

It was fricking multi-coloured. gimme a break dude.

there's only 1 scum in your hood, don't think it's you.

you should know your own hood flavour from your role pm.

scum is ABR, 2 of (BBMolla, GuiltyLion, Pisskop), and 1 from your hood (probably Danyboy)

[Battle Mage]

Battle Mage I’m not scum

Ok dude, would you be up for lynching GuiltyLion instead?

Why not Gamma or Danny

less likely to be scum. I'll do you a deal though - if you get a decent wagon on GuiltyLion, I'll join you on it. Otherwise, I'll continue to assume you're scumbuddies and just lynch you

[Battle Mage]

join my wagon Eddie, then we'll talk

[Battle Mage]

Never give BM a break.

That's it guys, if BM doesn't have you convinced with his superb scumhunting, I don't know what will. Only reason I'm not helping him vote the scum with a town neighbor role is because I have one too.

This game is confirmed Role Madness, there are no Vanilla Townies or Mafia Goons.

Just a reminder that this is the mods definition so a neighbor is perfectly acceptable

ABR might be scum regardless of that but a case built on that is foolish

FOOOOLIOIISSHH

I think BM is the one using that as evidence against ABR

This is a misrepresentation, I've been clear on my view that I don't believe there are plain old town neighbours in the game. Conceptually there could be. But I don't think there is. So ABR would then be lying, duh.

Revolutionary.

I think BM just cracked this game wide open guys.

Somebody not getting enough attention?

[Battle Mage]

I don't want to vote you, I think you're town.

vote BBmolla

[Battle Mage]

ABR hasn't been the most widely townread player at any point in the game. Except in your own mind.

Influential, absolutely. But I don't buy that he wasn't hit because he was protected, we've had loads of traps each night, you don't think there could have been MORE surely?? Again, this stretches credulity.

And I don't believe for a second you would employ that strategy as scum, from what I've seen of your play here.

What kind of reasoning is "You wouldn't do that as scum, because you're not doing it here."

ABR was the most prominent, loud players on day one, in my opinion. He had a decent town backing. Plus, you and him seem to have driven up a scum lynch. The game was feeling pretty good about him at that point in time.

It is not a reach to expect that they didn't try to NK him and instead shade him the next day so he'd either be easier to kill, or potentially set up for a mislynch later. Yeah it's still possible ABR is scum, but you are letting yourself be absolutely consumed by your setup spec and NK analysis like that mechanically confirms him. i can't take you seriously like this

I didn't say "you wouldn't do that as scum, because you're not doing it here". Regrettably, you have misinterpreted me once again.

Being loud is not the same as having town backing. My recollection of this game differs from yours, clearly. ABR didn't drive a scum lynch - are you sure you're thinking of this game? As I recall, he ran up a cop into a claim, and then eventually joined the Momo wagon when it looked inevitable he was going to be lynched.

On the contrary, I'm not even voting for ABR. You, however, are completely obsessed with arguing he is town, even when he is under no pressure. And your reasoning for doing so, at times, has been utterly ludicrous.

[Battle Mage]

I don't want to vote you, I think you're town.

vote BBmolla

I think Dany is more likely to be scum, Molla is not a town read but Dany is actively scummy.

Mathematically, we have more chance hitting scum with BBMolla. And you'll note ABR scum has been keen to lynch pretty much anyone today, except BBMolla.

What does that tell you?

[Battle Mage]

It was fricking multi-coloured. gimme a break dude.

there's only 1 scum in your hood, don't think it's you.

you should know your own hood flavour from your role pm.

scum is ABR, 2 of (BBMolla, GuiltyLion, Pisskop), and 1 from your hood (probably Danyboy)

you do not know this. this is coming entirely from your setup spec. try reading the game outside of it and see what comes of it

I'm confident. I think if I was wrong, at least 1 scum would have leapt on it. But the only way to find out is to try, and I'm a big fan of giving town the best chance to win.

You seriously don't need to be giving me advice about reading the game objectively.

[Battle Mage]

why do you keep commenting on my ABR read if you don't want to hear about it? seriously dudeee (*ﾉω-)

I suppose in the vain hope you stop digging that hole for yourself.

[Battle Mage]

Unvote, Vote: ABR

That's all I've got in me at the moment. Probably not back on until Tuesday.

[Battle Mage]

if you want people to stop scumreading you, do stuff worth townreading?

Just sitting there indignant is doing nothing to help your case buddy

Yeah we're just past the point where the effort is worth it. Sorry to be so blunt. I could spend all night reading and make all sorts of notes and I'm still on the list of people the scum hope to mislynch. If I'm eating a lynch then I'd rather do it while there's a chance it doesn't end the game in a scum win.

you arent the only person im considering voting for. im voting you in the hopes that either you're scum, or the lynch pressure makes you want to contribute and show you're town

you passed on even giving a readslist. What am I supposed to think? Also even if you're town and get mislynched, we can look back at your input in a new townie light

You apparently missed the part where I said use a sniper rifle instead of a shotgun. In other words: ask for a specific person instead of all people.

you could just mention the people you do have an opinion on. I'm unsure who to ask about.

I'd like to hear more about your evaluation on Battle Mage. You said you got super duper scum vibes on him. You likened him to a blind squirrel (good one btw). Why'd you find that to be scum-indicative for him?

Or if that wasn't the scum-indicative bit, what was?

well you're not wrong

Have you found anyone besides BM scummy? Like if you had to do a top three or four lynchpool, who'd be in it

BM appears to be trying to drive the game but doesn't appear to actually be applying much rational thought to it. Literally the entirety of BM's "pushes" have been wildly speculative.

lovely thanks guys

[Battle Mage]

I should add that, despite the fact I apparently have no credibility and am just getting buried by everyone... 112 pages into the game, I'm the only individual who has actually successfully identified and lynched scum (based on the most rudimentary scumhunting). So if my cases have been "wildly speculative", I can't imagine what folk like Drixx and MorningTweet have been smoking.

But please, continue to ridicule me, and pat yourselves on the back for your excellent results so far...

[Battle Mage]

Can anyone, preferably the naked votes, tell me why davesaz is scummy?

A lot of people are townie and he is hard null, which makes him more likely scum. I also like who I'm voting with.

Additionally, he’s a member of my hood which has a flipped cop, a cop claim that can only target in hood, an innocent by cop and an innocent by friendly neighbor adjacent role. Assuming my role isn’t a red herring for town, there should be at least one non jigsaw scum in the hood. The other options in that hood are me EC and drixx.

I also don’t like that he’s been very mechanics lite in a mechanics heavy game when he’s a self professed mechanically oriented player.

it's a mechanics heavy game? Can you try telling that to...ok pretty much everybody?

[Battle Mage]

I should add that, despite the fact I apparently have no credibility and am just getting buried by everyone... 112 pages into the game, I'm the only individual who has actually successfully identified and lynched scum (based on the most rudimentary scumhunting). So if my cases have been "wildly speculative", I can't imagine what folk like Drixx and MorningTweet have been smoking.

But please, continue to ridicule me, and pat yourselves on the back for your excellent results so far...

You're also the only person that lead an unquestioned mislynch on xtoxm day 2. You lost all of your credibility.

Hey, nobody's perfect! 1/2 is not bad and would have been 2/3 by now if we'd got you over the line.

[Battle Mage]

Almost50 is TOWN - meta
Drixx is TOWN - open post reveal of hood, and subsequent near-obsession with hood, as well as general inquisitive tone reads strongly town.
Blake Belladonna is PROBABLY TOWN - meta
Gamma Emerald is TOWN LEAN - marginal, but townie vibes from ISO so far.

Remaining suspects:

Pine*
momo*
Morning Tweet
Elsa Jay
VaultDweller
Vecna
Hectic
iDanyboy
GeorgeBailey
davesaz
farside22
BBmolla
GuiltyLion
pisskop
Albert B. Rampage
xtoxm

He's had the Drixx town read since here, with their only interaction before being Drixx pushing him (idk the details didnt read this part of the game), and Drixx had the worst popin during BM vs ABR. I want him to explain why he has it maintained the whole game.

On the BM note I also had a few other things to push him on but it's been radio silence.

I think we should get things straight at the outset - if you've got things to "push me on" you're barking up the wrong tree, as I'm not a suspect. I don't think there's any scenario in which I'm a viable lynch today, given my play and attitude so far, the fact I led a scumlynch on Day 1 from nowhere, the fact I got targeted by scum Night 1, and the fact that my 4 person hood has already flipped 1 scum (which everyone else seems to think makes me town - although I disagree completely with the logic!). Am I confirmed town? No, but I'm pretty much the towniest town you can get without being actually confirmed. Do I massively care if I do get lynched for some reason? Not really, as long as when I flip town, people actually smell the coffee and lynch ABR-scum.

You can ask me questions and I'll tell you the facts, but if you think you're interrogating me or some crap, you're fooling yourself and I won't entertain it.

On Drixx, I've consistently had the sense from him in the first 80 pages or something that he was town, and nothing since has really stood out to me, although I can be corrected on that! I don't think I can agree with, or see tremendous value in, a lot of what he says, but being wrong doesn't make you scum (it just makes you an easy cheap mislynch, which is something I'm keen to avoid). Could he be scum? Possibly yeah, but he'd be pretty low on my list for all the reasons stated.

[Battle Mage]

Eddie if you feel strongly that Ank slot is town or at least the wrong lynch today, I can defer to you on that since tbh your assessment of her meta/playstyle feels more nuanced and built off a lot more experience than I have with her. I think I'm just struggling to see a lot of clear scum candidates here if Bingle claim is legit. I definitely do not want ABR today, but trying to hit right between Bingle/Drixx/Blake feels like a crapshoot especially since two of the players can't really justify or explain their predecessors play.

What do you think of Bingle discreding MT as a universal townread? Is that scum just trying to have a nice 'against the grain' fake read to try to sound original or is that likely to be genuine?

MT is not even close to a universal townread. The only reason anyone would think MT is town is because she is in a hood which probably doesn't have any scum (which to me, counts for something). In terms of play, she has been as scummy as anybody still living with the exception of ABR.

For the same reason, lynching Firebringer is a really weak play which I couldn't justify.

[Battle Mage]

Do you intend to respond to me?

It is so frustrating to have no player willing to engage live, cant call people scummy dodging it if everyone does....

BM's town read of Drixx, which seems like nonsense, is my current flavor.

I'm not pushing Drixx with that post, though I dont see how pushing Drixx would be unwise.

This is what is eating you up inside? Me thinking Drixx was town, 30 something pages ago?

I mean, I'm flattered you care so much about my reads. Although it does beg the question why you aren't hardcore pushing ABR or somebody I think might be scum?

[Battle Mage]

Stop voting Dave. Bingle or Firebringer are far better lynches.

No they aren't.
VOTE: GuiltyLion

VOTE: guiltylion

Never let it be said that I can't compromise.

[Battle Mage]

I mean, seriously, we're 114 pages deep, and we still don't know what the lion is guilty of....

traditional scumhunting here...

[Battle Mage]

In terms of play, she has been as scummy as anybody still living with the exception of ABR.

... which game are you reading, lmao

please explain what MT has done that is scum-indicative

saying "please explain" when you know I've already explained, at length, over the course of numerous posts, is lame. You're better than that. You're probably the smartest dude in this game. The post above isn't the best illustration of it, and targeting me just because I'm voting for you is pretty cheap.

[Battle Mage]

also, me becoming a sudden counter wagon to Dave is interesting and makes me feel more confident that Dave is scum

I'm just desperate to lynch someone who actually has a decent chance of being scum today, and gives us a foundation to work with tomorrow.

Depending on how I play tonight, I might re-read at some stage soon.

[Battle Mage]

saying "please explain" when you know I've already explained, at length, over the course of numerous posts, is lame. You're better than that. You're probably the smartest dude in this game. The post above isn't the best illustration of it, and targeting me just because I'm voting for you is pretty cheap.

quote the posts then if you've already explained it, because I don't remember you ever making a good case for scum!MT

It's not my job to go back and quote my own posts for you, it's your job to read them, as you are very capable of doing.

And I never made a case for "scum!MT" as such - as I clearly said in my post which you originally responded to, I said MT's play has been exceptionally scummy, but I don't think she's scum because I don't think the FBI hood has scum in it. I can't imagine how anyone else who is actually reading the game could come to the conclusion MT is town...

If my mechanic solve turns out to be completely wrong, I expect MT to be a pretty high priority lynch, but we're a little ways off that.

[Battle Mage]

why me instead of Dave

I think in the most neutral objective sense, you should agree he is more likely to be scum than I am

it's not a personal reflection on you at all fella! You've played great here, and I'm certainly not planning to go and make some elaborate case against you, because that sort of thing ain't gonna fly in this game anyway. But I think you might be scum, and that's all there is to it.

[Battle Mage]

Okay well now i'm feeling better about voting dave

Because if GuiltyLion flips town, you could be lynched tomorrow? A surprisingly honest perspective, but I welcome it.

[Battle Mage]

BM I'd almost prefer you forget your flavour-mechanical solve and push me, cause i'm

genuinely

curious why i'm nearly as scummy as ABR to you

All i know is that you dislike that i mostly just get townreads instead of scumreads + my defense of ABR is 'exceptionally scummy'

I don't know if you remember, but we lynched Momo on Day 1 for little slips like these?

I don't buy the pretence of ignorance, you're a smart cookie.

[Battle Mage]

Oh i guess i can save the anticipation of you coming after me for after your solve is proven false, then

It wasn't too long ago you declared it had already been proven false, but it's pleasing to see you backtrack here. Won't be long until you're in the palm of my hand!

[Battle Mage]

In terms of play, she has been as scummy as anybody still living with the exception of ABR.

... which game are you reading, lmao

please explain what MT has done that is scum-indicative

saying "please explain" when you know

I've already explained, at length, over the course of numerous posts, is lame

. You're better than that. You're probably the smartest dude in this game. The post above isn't the best illustration of it, and targeting me just because I'm voting for you is pretty cheap.

saying "please explain" when you know I've already explained, at length, over the course of numerous posts, is lame. You're better than that. You're probably the smartest dude in this game. The post above isn't the best illustration of it, and targeting me just because I'm voting for you is pretty cheap.

quote the posts then if you've already explained it, because I don't remember you ever making a good case for scum!MT

It's not my job to go back and quote my own posts for you, it's your job to read them, as you are very capable of doing.

And I never made a case for "scum!MT" as such - as I clearly said in my post which you originally responded to, I said MT's play has been exceptionally scummy, but I don't think she's scum

because I don't think the FBI hood has scum in it. I can't imagine how anyone else who is actually reading the game could come to the conclusion MT is town...

If my mechanic solve turns out to be completely wrong, I expect MT to be a pretty high priority lynch, but we're a little ways off that.

so I ask you to explain why you think MT is scum
you say I need to just read your posts where you've explained it at length
I ask you to quote these posts
then you say you never actually made a case for MT as scum explicitly and you think MT is town mechanically

so what were you even on about when you responded to my first question by saying that you already explained

"at length"

why MT is scummy when you don't even claim she's scum now?

….acting scummy doesn't necessarily mean you are scum. If this is really where we're at, I'm off to sleep.

[Battle Mage]

Oh i guess i can save the anticipation of you coming after me for after your solve is proven false, then

It wasn't too long ago you declared it had already been proven false, but it's pleasing to see you backtrack here. Won't be long until you're in the palm of my hand!

i hope the 10,000 shades you've made on me over the course of this game don't factor into your case. they're quite weak

You don't seem to think it's proven false. A disfavourable flip would prove it false in your eyes, yes? do you even try to interpret things i say as anything other than scummy?

and you still haven't answered the emoji question. im getting grumpy about it >:(

10,000 is an exaggeration. If you were town, would you find it so difficult to be honest, and not resort to hyperbole?

Also they aren't really "shades" or "weak" - they are simply measured reflections of your inconsistent and unsubstantiated perspectives on the game as this day has developed. As I said on Day 1, there is something in the fact you are really struggling to find suspects you are willing to push, and you've only really pushed anybody after significant cajoling. I think you've acknowledged that that doesn't reflect well on you.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong - but I don't know yet, and if you're town, neither do you. But you have really floundered when responding to it - when you could simply have concluded, as others have, that my theory is possible but unlikely. Instead, you've tried desperately to persuade others, and maybe even yourself, that it's wrong, when that is factually incorrect. It's difficult for me to see why, as town you would:

A. Care so much about my theory, if you really think it's not close to the mark.
B. Go to great lengths to falsely claim that it cannot be right, when it could be.
C. Despite B, later acknowledge that it could be right, and thereby recognise that your previous assertions were all incorrect.

You've conceded that you don't have an actual mechanical reason (like an investigation or some such) for believing ABR is town, so I think your defence of him reflects poorly regardless of his alignment because it is incredible reachy, unsubstantiated, and has failed the consistency test abysmally.

I'm a gut-feeling sort of player really, and my gut still says you're town, but pretty much every time you post, including perpetually wittering on about your favourite emojis when nobody cares, I find it difficult to see a town motivation there. So I will absolutely point it out every time I see it, because it's part of the game to find scummy stuff, and maybe eventually the balance will tip and my gut read will change or I'll just come to the conclusion which seems to be an emerging consensus that there are worse lynches than you today.

That's my final word on it for now - I'm not going to get sucked into your preferred tactic of a long debate which leads nowhere and achieves nothing.

[Battle Mage]

I really want to solve this game, but theres just nothing to really work with here.

All that we can do is make weak ass assumptions based on the little that like 6 slots have given us

I wouldn't waste your time - I solved the game like 30 pages ago, and it didn't make a lick of difference

[Battle Mage]

Dave

decided not to

didn't get a chance to vote Momo

FTFY. Day 1 went from about L-4 to hammer while I was sleeping IIRC.

Day 2 started and ended without me even getting a chance to read. I want to scumread BM over that but it seemed like a perfectly reasonable case when I skimmed it. Today BM vs ABR turned me off completely. I hate 1v1s. I hate voting claimed PRs. I don't have any mechanical results that are +town to reveal.

A couple things:

1. It wasn't entirely my fault Day 2 ended before you could post. It was like 10 to lynch or something?
2. If you hate 1v1s and voting claimed PRs, maybe voting ABR is your best play.

[Battle Mage]

TBC, I'm not really townreading either of them, I just think resolving my neighborhood is literally the most important thing for this day phase and lynching outside of it is dumb.

I doubt the mod puts me in a neighborhood with another cop where I can't get any guilties. The living non inno'd people in my hood are BINGLE DRIXX EC DAVE.

Of those, Dave is the only one I don't think is town.

On the contrary, I'd suggest resolving your neighbourhood is literally the least important thing for this day phase, given it's the largest pool and it's not obvious that it has a higher proportion of scum than any other pool. So lynching in your hood is "dumb" to use your words.

[Battle Mage]

if there is a cop who can only investigate in their own hood, which has only 7 other people to start, does anyone really think there are more than 2 scum there? It's probably more like 1, otherwise it's a pretty powerful role in a game which is already chock-full of town PRs.

Just a hot take, as I do need a re-read to get to grips with who has claimed what...

[Battle Mage]

Something doesn't feel right with Pisskop. Noted mainly for my own benefit.

Please dont judge Fire based on his 'content' or 'contributions'

Wait did people change their minds and decide to out hoods fully now?

idk, but I was just about to come in and say I was sorry for not reading the last . . . 12 or so pages when an egosearch turns this up.

VOTE: unovte

Sorry bud, the ride stops here.

VOTE: abr

I have to give this a read. Im sorry guys

In other news, could somebody please post a list of everyone who has claimed, and what they claimed? If not, I'll do it myself later when I have time.

[Battle Mage]

if there is a cop who can only investigate in their own hood, which has only 7 other people to start, does anyone really think there are more than 2 scum there? It's probably more like 1, otherwise it's a pretty powerful role in a game which is already chock-full of town PRs.

Just a hot take, as I do need a re-read to get to grips with who has claimed what...

There are 4 living people who have not had innocent results on them in said hood. One of them is me. I am townreading 2 of them. 3/4 of them are highly proficient mafia players. I'm literally counting on there being 1-2 scum in that neighborhood.



Go ahead and tell me again why this isn't a good place to spend our energy?

...You literally quoted me in the post above

I don't know if your figures are right, but if they are, we've still got more chance of hitting scum by going OUTSIDE of the hoods, where there are only 3 players left (excluding Vecna who has a decent claim), and either 1 or 2 scum.

No idea why you would care if someone is a proficient mafia player in the context of whether they get a cop investigation on them or not.

[Battle Mage]

if there's a godfather role in this game, it's ABR right? who else played on Day 1 like they were desperate to be investigated asap?

[Battle Mage]

Pagetop
VOTE: Battle Mage

Dude...no...I don't see what advantage BM has of turning on me day 3 when I 100% townread him.

You know you've messed up when even ABR won't back your BM vote.

Problem with replacements after 100 pages, is they don't tend to read what's happened so sometimes they can make mistakes like this.

[Battle Mage]

If ABR and BM are scum together i'd lose my shit

Why? The more I read the game the more this feels plausible

3 scum in a 4 person hood? That is wacky dude...

[Battle Mage]

W.r.t. all the investigative roles in the cop hood, I can confirm that I also have an (admittedly weak) investigative power.

And my funnybone is telling me that one of my hoodmates just has to be scum, but I'm hesitant to lynch there for obvious reasons.

I don't really follow this?

if there's a godfather role in this game, it's ABR right? who else played on Day 1 like they were desperate to be investigated asap?

Youre suddenly going to ignore your own flavour theorycrafting?

that seems odd

Not really... I quite clearly said "if there's a godfather in this game", responding to the previous comment. I haven't given a sense of whether I think that's likely. I don't really have a sense of whether it's likely or not. And for what it's worth, even if I did conclude a Godfather was likely, there's nothing to suggest it would have to be Jigsaw. Investigation immunity is not exactly an amazing power role in the context of this game.

[Battle Mage]

Jokes aside, if this Day phase actually ends with me being lynched, town has zero chance in this game.

[Battle Mage]

Maybe it's {Battle Mage XOR ABR}, Guilty Lion, davesaz, and Drixx.
VOTE: Drixx

Pretty unlikely solve, but a substantial improvement on your last attempt, so kudos for that.

[Battle Mage]

Dave saying "I'm a PR. take that stupid" kind of seems like his M.O and is pretty much what id expect from town dave

Although im unfamiliar with what scum dave does instead. hmm

I think that if you're gonna design a setup with an 8 person cop hood, you cant afford to make all their investigative powers good. A regular cop, a godfather cop, an internal cop, etc., all makes sense. Drixx finally having a role claim that isnt cop makes me feel better about him though.

im not sure if i can use the cop claims themselves to determine who is scum. frustrating

@BM Hectics role PM heavily implies there is a godfather named Jigsaw

Ah thanks - I'm a bit lost on all the claims/confirms still.

Has anyone made that list yet?

[Battle Mage]

Forgot one thing!

This message came over the loudspeaker in the middle of the night:

Welcome to ChannelSawNews

Today's topstory,Logan"momo"Nelson has been hung by the Survivors.He is survived by his partnersincrime,REDACTED, REDACTED,REDACTED,andJigsaw

BBmolla,identityhidden,was lauded as hero

"Well I told everyone I'd hammer in 10 minutes but I did in 5.Cause justice waits for noone."

I'm still totally cool with an ABR lynch today.

[Battle Mage]

ah ignore the quote above - was ISOing the BBMolla reporter claim

[Battle Mage]

On balance, I'm not sold on Vecna and VaultDweller as town. Looking back at early VaultDweller posts, he was very engaged with 2 people: Momo and Vecna. With him having no knowledge of Vecna, but Vecna claiming something to defend him, one simple explanation would be that they are simply scumbuddies. Not sure why Vecna would make that play though? Unless perhaps VaultDweller was Jigsaw? In any case, Vecna should go first, and could be viable lynch, although quite far down priority list today I think...

[Battle Mage]

On balance, I'm not sold on Vecna and VaultDweller as town. Looking back at early VaultDweller posts, he was very engaged with 2 people: Momo and Vecna. With him having no knowledge of Vecna, but Vecna claiming something to defend him, one simple explanation would be that they are simply scumbuddies. Not sure why Vecna would make that play though? Unless perhaps VaultDweller was Jigsaw? In any case, Vecna should go first, and could be viable lynch, although quite far down priority list today I think...

It's likely VD is town, but I can agree that Vecna looks bad. Especially when we take into account that VD softclaimed some sort of weak investigative role (add that to the list). Still though, Vecna is outside of the cophood.

I mean, I'm basically saying the opposite to you here. On read alone (excluding the claims), VD-scum is very plausible, and if he was scum, clearly the next lynch would have been Vecna based on their interaction. Nothing massively worrying me about Vecna, besides the mechanics point you note, but for VD to be scum, he must be scum, and that pairing seems perfectly possible. I'm certainly not advocating a Vecna lynch on the basis of Vecna himself looking bad.

It's pretty hard for me to imagine a world in which VD (and given the claim, Vecna) and you are both town.

[Battle Mage]

I mean... Never lynch VD before Vecna, don't lynch Vecna today.

I don't see why Vecna fake innos a buddy here when there are a ton of viable mislynches regardless of who the scum team is, so it's likely that VD is town regardless.

unless VD is Jigsaw, as it would buy him some time. I can't remember whether VD was under any particular heat at that stage, which would be important, but VD would definitely have been one of the 2 options for lynching from that hood at the start of the Day, and it would have been hard to see him surviving long without the claim. If Jigsaw has lots of power wrt traps, possible that it would be worth the risk. Vecna hasn't always acted with care and sophistry in this game, so I reckon it's possible he could do that and get it wrong as scum. Although I agree, it isn't the optimal play today at all.

That's functionally 5 investigative claims, all gated pretty heavily, and I can agree that it's likely not all of them are town. But of the three {Vecna/Dave/VD} VD is the one I suspect the least. Why would VD out himself as investigative the way he did as scum. It looks like there's already going to be a lynch on a claimed PR, so it's probably not to cast doubt on true town claims. He himself isn't under scrutiny because Vecna isn't nearing a lynch. It just doesn't make sense for VD to make the play he's making here.

I also think Vecna is more likely to be town than dave, because Vecna has flavor knowledge about VD. Vecna claimed VD's flavor iirc, which means scum has a flavor cop of some kind if VD isn't on his team.

I think if Vecna is scum, VD is scum. Little doubt.

[Battle Mage]

Vecna has requested replacement.

Interesting timing.

[Battle Mage]

Why do you think one of {Vault, Bingle} has to be scum, BM? I feel it's extremely likely Vault is town and i dont really attach it to any other players.

They were easily the 2 scummiest players in the big hood, with obvious links to Momo-scum.

Also, it's virtually impossible that Vecna made up that claim. Vault is Eric Matthews, who in the movies, frantically searches for his son Daniel Matthews.

Vault's real role (or mod fake claim) has to be Eric Matthews, and Vecna's real role (or mod fake claim) has to be Daniel Matthews. Otherwise they would have had a flavour conflict with another player. Also Eric Matthews is a cop just as his PT suggests

We know that scum are given fakeclaims which correspond to their hood flavour (I believe you actually told me this, so surprised you've forgotten). Otherwise, I agree that it's likely they would need to have been given those fakeclaims, which of course is perfectly possible.

The only way Vault can be scum is if Vecna's mod-given fake claim is a 1-way IC confirmer on his scumbuddy's fakeclaim (Vault's). Which i find pretty unlikely.

I think the more likely possibility is that Vecna's real role (or mod fake claim) is Daniel Matthews, and it 1-way confirms a townie. In that scenario, Vecna can be scum, Vault cannot

I couldn't disagree more. For them both to be scum, all that would need to happen is they would have had to tell each other their Mod-given fakeclaim at some point (which I imagine scum did fairly early in the game). I think it's less likely that Vecna is scum with knowledge of the identity of an investigative town PR. We don't need to debate this.

[Battle Mage]

it could be:

ABR-GuiltyLion-Vecna-VaultDweller

Although MorningTweet wouldn't like that very much...

[Battle Mage]

I'm leaning more towards GuiltyLion-scum out of all the non-hood folk. Although I'm feeling increasingly willing to look at a wider pool today.

[Battle Mage]

Ultimately I'm not gonna fight tooth and nail against an MT lynch today - it's probably +EV for town regardless of flip if it means every wagon on potential scum isn't getting de-railed for no good reason...

[Battle Mage]

I will literally hammer anyone at this point including myself

Have GuiltyLion and Pisskop claimed yet?

I think one saving grace for Bingle is that Danyboy replaced out - his scum meta is to collapse and self-vote under pressure, which he didn't exactly do here.

[Battle Mage]

Did BBMolla claim 1 shot reporter? with like 300 characters? if so, that's a pretty weak town PR, and could be a scum ability to go with a fakeclaim. Lines up with the odd coincidence that most of the people he referenced in his extended article were the ones hit by traps on that same night. But, he chose to post that extended version, so makes it less likely to be AI. Also his general attitude in the game has been pretty consistent with what I'd expect from someone town with an ability like that (engaged at first, then disappointed to only do a short article, and then dis-engaged once he had shot his shot).

[Battle Mage]

GuiltyLion's claim could also be possible as a scum-role, with the benefit of giving him a safeclaim but also allowing him to be trapped without risking death and get a bit of towncred. It's also perfectly possible as a town role. I think slightly more likely to be scum than the reporter, as the reporter is something openly revealed in the day, whereas the trap disabler would be a night option, and as we don't know how the traps work, scum might be able to orchestrate it so it looks like one of them has disabled a trap, without that being a special ability as such.

Pisskop hasn't yet claimed, and probably should as the only non-revealed non-hood person.

Vecna's claim relies on knowing somebody elses flavour. On balance, I think a better claim than GuiltyLion but worse than BBMolla. Although not much to choose between these.

Might not be the worst thing to run up a wagon on Pisskop.

Unvote, Vote: Pisskop

[Battle Mage]

VOTE: TrueSoulEnergy

Looks like Vecna may have just been scum. And if we're wrong confirming VaultDweller as town would be really useful. I don't see much reason not to do this.

Tweet is likely town as much as I hate to admit it.

why on earth would you 'hate to admit' that one of the more active and solve-y slots is likely town? odd choice of words here

I like your style.

I don't like how they handled the trap they were in.

This is the sort of thing I would expect scum to be pitching, to try and get more equity from their traps.

I think its highly likely that scum can just 'avoid' the negatives of a trap'. which is what MT did.

agree

Hello there.
VOTE: Albert
I’ll go ahead and Sheep this wagon.

a strong start

So the correct choice IMO is to lynch Dave.
Because of what has occurred, this game is practically solved if Dave flips Scum.

VOTE: Dave

WTF?

The team should be something like:
Eddie, Albert, Morning Tweet, Battle Mage

With BBMolla and FireBringer leftover as possibilities.

Wow that is awful...I reckon if that was the team, scum would already have closed this game out.

It’s like you seem to only care to small details to prove a point to something that isn’t there.

I care to prove that your posting is nonsense. Dave is not "higher info" than Bingle, which is your entire case. If that's a small detail, sure. Not that info lynching on day 3 isn't nonsense to begin with.

As you aren’t even questioning my vote on you.

I think you're a pretty annoying player, you clearly haven't read any of the game so your opinion/reads don't matter to me, and with 2 days to deadline your slot is too widely town read to get lynched today so sorting your alignment doesn't really matter. Why waste thread space?

too widely town read? I disagree, I'm ok with lynching him, largely on merit of how much I scumread VD, the value of lynching outside the hoods, and this haphazard open.

It’s more like I set you up for a trap to test your actual alignment but you avoided it.

dude, what are you doing...

[Battle Mage]

If you scum read VD I’d like to know your case on that slot.

great, you can start by reading the game then.

[Battle Mage]

Also I’m kinda disappointed in my slot for hard claiming Informed Town. (VD - Town)
They could have legit baited scum and have some caught scum or managed to get into F3 with VD making the Mafia Obvious.

Given how scummy VD has been, I don't think that strategy would have worked if you were town

[Battle Mage]

That strategy actually makes a lot of sense cause VD would never get nightkilled

Vecna-TSE and Vault make it to LYLO, a bunch of people push Vault, Vecna reveals Vault is an IC. it's not a perfect plan but it does seem like the strength of the role is meant for that.

of course people would need to townread vecna-TSE though

if Vault is confirmed town, him surviving to LyLo is beneficial. But the idea you can trap scum by looking at people who push VD is inconceivable when every townie has perfectly good grounds to do so. Just my 2 cents!

MT - are you working under a post restriction this game?

[Battle Mage]

That strategy actually makes a lot of sense cause VD would never get nightkilled

Vecna-TSE and Vault make it to LYLO, a bunch of people push Vault, Vecna reveals Vault is an IC. it's not a perfect plan but it does seem like the strength of the role is meant for that.

of course people would need to townread vecna-TSE though

if Vault is confirmed town, him surviving to LyLo is beneficial. But the idea you can trap scum by looking at people who push VD is inconceivable when every townie has perfectly good grounds to do so. Just my 2 cents!

MT - are you working under a post restriction this game?

Ah but there’s a difference between Misguided Town and Scum.

Yes but you haven't given a sense of how you would distinguish between the two. On the evidence of you simply asking me, without too much thought, whether I'm misguided town or scum (Spoiler: I'm neither), I can't say I'm overwhelmingly impressed with your methods.

[Battle Mage]

That strategy actually makes a lot of sense cause VD would never get nightkilled

Vecna-TSE and Vault make it to LYLO, a bunch of people push Vault, Vecna reveals Vault is an IC. it's not a perfect plan but it does seem like the strength of the role is meant for that.

of course people would need to townread vecna-TSE though

if Vault is confirmed town, him surviving to LyLo is beneficial. But the idea you can trap scum by looking at people who push VD is inconceivable when every townie has perfectly good grounds to do so. Just my 2 cents!

MT - are you working under a post restriction this game?

Ah but there’s a difference between Misguided Town and Scum.

Yes but you haven't given a sense of how you would distinguish between the two. On the evidence of you simply asking me, without too much thought, whether I'm misguided town or scum (Spoiler: I'm neither), I can't say I'm overwhelmingly impressed with your methods.

I could care less if your impressed or not.
If you really want to see me distinguish the two give me your entire case on VT and let me interact with you on it.
But instead, you would rather be like “oh look TSE isn’t ready the thread! Bad! Read it and find out for yourself!”
Which doesn’t really look like you actually care anyways.

I'm well past the point of playing the game for anybody else - if you aren't intending to read the thread, why would you even replace in? Not a dig, a genuine question...

You're absolutely right though - I couldn't care less about making a case to persuade

you

that somebody is scum when you have claimed to mechanically confirm them as town. That would be a complete waste of my time.

[Battle Mage]

He’s in the hood and people keep saying he’s he’s scummy without explaining why. I think he looks like classic disenfranchised town who genuinely tries to understand and scumhunt on occasion, but my experience with him is dated hydra meta, so it’s worth looking yourself.

I think he feels like an easy target because he's a bit all over the place with his reads at times. Hasn't read scum to me, and nobody really mentioned him before today.

[Battle Mage]

I’ll be Honest, I think I know what Battle Mage is doing here if he’s scum.
He’s trying to get rid of the Informed Townie because it’s practically a mason.
In doing such he plans to use the excuse “your lynch proves VD Town” which was shown previously
Then after that he Night kills VD getting rid of a threat to the mafia.
And TBH they shouldn’t have to need someone’s flip to tell them who’s Town.
If They are Misguided Town I’ll help them figure out why they miss read VD.
Simple.

This is weak OMGUS. My reads this game have been pretty solid, so arguing I'm "misguided town" is demonstrably untrue. And your argument for me being scum, needing to lynch you to kill a potential conf-town, is ridiculous, when scum seem to be killing multiple people each night, and you are nowhere near confirmed town. Portraying yourself as a mason is inaccurate, and suspicious. Clearly I don't care about your defence of VD because:

A. you haven't even read the game, and your 'reads' so far suck.
B. you have claimed he is conf-town, so you are completely biased regardless of alignment.
C. I think you're scum

[Battle Mage]

Hey look, seems I've been busy. I got another son!

Hi TSE, I'll probably be sheeping your vote today. I'm becoming more lost as the day goes on.

That’s fine.
RN I’m between Eddie and Battle Mage.
Ain’t liking either.
My vote will probably be on Eddie but it depends on Battle Mage’s responses.

I'd love to see you waste your vote on me - bring it!

[Battle Mage]

I’ll be Honest

, I think I know what Battle Mage is doing here if he’s scum.
He’s trying to get rid of the Informed Townie because it’s practically a mason.
In doing such he plans to use the excuse “your lynch proves VD Town” which was shown previously
Then after that he Night kills VD getting rid of a threat to the mafia.
And TBH they shouldn’t have to need someone’s flip to tell them who’s Town.
If They are Misguided Town I’ll help them figure out why they miss read VD.
Simple.

On a serious note, and I hate to labour the point - the "I'll be honest" slip above, is the exact sorta shit we lynched Momo-scum for.

[Battle Mage]

I hate to join a wagon infested with scum, but Pisskop is worth wagonning to a claim at the very least.

Let's get that claim, and then make a sensible decision about whether to lynch or not...please?

VOTE: Pisskop

[Battle Mage]

And I will look down upon them, and I will say 'no'

Ok great, happy to lynch you in that case.

[Battle Mage]

too widely town read? I disagree, I'm ok with lynching him, largely on merit of how much I scumread VD, the value of lynching outside the hoods, and this haphazard open.

I did not get a town read Vecna catching up but I dont think the votes exist, deadlines in like 2 days

I agree that Vecna wasn't a beacon of town shinyness, but he's still probably a bad play today.

I think TSE is likely to annoy scum into shooting him/actively scumhunt.

He tends to be a very proactive if high ego player, but let's be real here, the only way we could get bigger egos in this game is if we added RC and LLD to blow up at each other, so the ego drawback is less than worrisome.

The way town wins this game is for some of our moderates (GL/Drixx/FB/Irch/MT?) to do a good job of reigning in whichever town voices are in the middle of the "No, sheep me!" wars and build a common ground to stand on. My town flip gives Ircher the cred he needs to do that, and SHOULD instigate a hard reset on the part of the people who have been hard suspecting me all day.

Why are you talking like you're about to be lynched or something? And why would that make Ircher town? Or suddenly the leader of everything? And why are you assuming those suspecting you are predominantly town? Or why you being mislynched would achieve anything (not clear that it would)? So many questions!

If we assume at least 1 scum not in a hood, and Pisskop is the only one refusing to claim, and everyone else has potentially plausible claims, I can live with lynching him.

[Battle Mage]

momo (11) -

Hectic, farside22

, Morning Tweet, GuiltyLion, Albert B. Rampage,

Elsa Jay

, Blake Belladonna,

Almost50

, Battle Mage,

xtoxm

, BBmolla

I probably should have spent more time on this but IMO this makes it very likely there's scum in {Fire, BM, Molla} and those are the lynches I'll compromise on if not Bingle

why me?

[Battle Mage]

VOTE: Albert B. Rampage

I'm half tempted not to use my immunity tonight, as scum are less likely to bother trapping me if I'm becoming a potential lynch-target tomorrow (no idea why or how!).

Votecount 3.7

BBmolla (3) - Albert B. Rampage, Firebringer, Morning Tweet
Bingle (2) - Eddie Cane, GuiltyLion
Albert B. Rampage (2) - pisskop, VaultDweller
pisskop (2) - BBmolla, Battle Mage
Drixx (1) - Ircher
davesaz (1) - Bingle
Eddie Cane (1) - TrueSoulEnergy

Not voting (2) - davesaz, Drixx

(expired on 2020-05-16 19:49:00) remain until day end

With 14 players alive, it takes 8 to reach a majority.

"Face your fears."

[Battle Mage]

who u think holds the most content filled flip then?

ABR, obviously - today has been mostly about him.

[Battle Mage]

I won't be around before deadline, so I'm sticking with my principles and keeping my vote on ABR...all day!

[Battle Mage]

Two more doors open. In the first, an enormous circular blade hangs from the ceiling, with a pulled switch in the center. Nobody seems to be inside...
Inside the second, yet another massacre awaits. Two shredded bodies and a destroyed bathtub lie inside. It seems nail bombs went off inside the room. How grim.

Due to the Choice made in a Game by Battle Mage last night, Jigsaw's Acolytes have gained a 2-shot factional night kill!

Due to Choices made in a Game by pisskop, GuiltyLion and TrueSoulEnergy last night, GuiltyLion and TrueSoulEnergy were killed by nail bombs!

VOTE: Pisskop

Obviously

2 players left not in any hood (every other one has flipped town) - BBMolla and Pisskop. Pisskop still hasn't claimed. Helped lynch Drixx yesterday (a wagon surely riddled with scum at this stage). Killed 2 town last night in a trap. Need I go on?

[Battle Mage]

I think this town is screwed either way, based on how yesterday went

But the least we can do is try and lynch someone with a decent chance of being scum. There's 4 of them, so I'm not too fussy...

I'll come up with a solve shortly!

[Battle Mage]

A minimum of 3 people are dying every night - the idea that a consequence of my trap is a difference maker in this game is ridiculous

I'll stick with trying to lynch scum today, rather than wasting time with that foolishness.

[Battle Mage]

Nobody cares about my solve, but they care about yours?

I'll be back later with something useful, but town today will need to think very carefully, and not be bombarded with MT's volume posting - regardless of alignment.

[Battle Mage]

MT - your reads have been way off all game. mine have been pretty on-point (remarkably so).

[Battle Mage]

How did we end up lynching Drixx yesterday? No post mortem on that? I wonder why...

[Battle Mage]

Nobody cares about my solve, but they care about yours?

I'll be back later with something useful, but town today will need to think very carefully, and not be bombarded with MT's volume posting - regardless of alignment.

Nice try, but I'm really not phased by you anymore

Not to mention you attack PK out of the gate -- that's like the worst slot you could've picked on the Drixx wagon. Especially considering the trap. How do you even come to the conclusion PK is scum from that trap?

How do you even come to the conclusion I'm scum, but he's town?

I don't think it's a question of "being phased by me". If you're town, you've probably played a bigger part in costing us the game than anybody by continually de-railing useful lynches on possible scum and lynching someone not only town, but whose lynch seems to provide no value to the town. If you're scum, it doesn't really matter - I suppose you've played an effective game, so kudos.

[Battle Mage]

Well I'm not gonna spend lots of time re-reading, given where we are (with 4 scum and 6 to lynch, I'll probably be dead by morning)! But I'm comfortable with an ABR or Pisskop lynch today. The others are a bit less certain, although my best guess would be:

ABR-Pisskop-MT-Bingle - I think that's not too far off, although some would argue it's too obvious given how they've interacted with each other. Some brief notes below:

FBI Hood (1 town dead):
Morning Tweet
Firebringer Blake Belladonna

Cop Hood (3 town dead):
Ircher Gamma Emerald
VaultDweller*
Bingle iDanyboy (best candidate for Detective Mark Hoffman - scum)
Eddie Cane GeorgeBailey
davesaz

Survivor Hood (1 scum, 1 town dead):
Battle Mage
Albert B. Rampage (Amanda Young - scum)

No Hood (3+ town dead):
BBmolla
pisskop (Dr Lawrence Gordon - scum)

Jigsaw - could be anyone apart from me and VD (most likely MT, then BBMolla, although BBMolla has a good credible claim). Big tell for MT being scum throughout is deliberately lying about the provable elements of the game, like scum fakeclaims and flavour - she obviously understands the flavour and has mislead town on it to undermine me, which suggests she must be scum with ABR.

I'm broadly happy with how I've played this game. I've been right on most of my reads, pushed strongly and with conviction, but also been versatile to try and make things happen. I'm the only player who has got close to leading a lynch on scum all game. But the biggest weakness, as is often the case, is failing to persuade people to follow my cases. I did ok early in the game, but then got de-railed on Day 3, either because scum were worried about my influence or because my solve was too close to the bone. My decision for the first trap was not too hard - on Night 1, I was essentially confirmed townie, and able to actively influence the game, so it felt more beneficial to town to continue on. Last night, I didn't put too much thought into it - in retrospect it was probably the wrong call, given I might get lynched today although definitely wasn't expecting that possibility. My gut was that, in the context of a game in which scum have seemingly limitless kills/traps, the risk of scum getting 2 extra NKs in future was worth a gamble to give town a chance of lynching scum and winning the game against all the odds. Either way, not likely to be a game-changer, given that scum have been dominating the game anyway. It's pretty tough for town anyway, if you have to get 5 lynches correct, and can't afford 3 mislynches.

The key weakness of town this game has been forgetting that it's a large theme game - the flavour is important! How important, we'll find out soon enough, but there hasn't been enough effort put into trying to solve the mechanics and flavour which is clearly what the Mod was hoping and expecting town would do. Appreciate it can be hard if you're not familiar with it, but I wasn't at the start of the game, and I did some research to allow me to get a grip of it. In terms of strategy today, town clearly shouldn't be letting scum set the agenda for the day with their night actions - if you let the traps determine the lynches, you forfeit the game to scum unfortunately. The idea that I would bus my partner on Day 1, without any instigation, presumably in order to get towncred, and then put myself in traps which lead to bad things happening for town, doesn't make any sense - why erode my towncred in that way, when presumably I would have other partners who could do the same job. The idea of me being lynched today is nonsensical in the context of the game, and some scrutiny should be put on the players who have been here throughout who should know better. Those who've replaced in and not read the game, have some excuse. It's a shame town didn't follow me yesterday, as we could have won this game with time to spare, or at least been competitive. But as it turned out with the Drixx lynch, I think it was always bound to be a real long-shot.

My closing thoughts would be: big credit to the Mod for the game - it's been really enjoyable and well-modded! So thank you!

[Battle Mage]

I'm definitely not certain on Bingle, especially as his claim is pretty good. But he does wear the burden of his predecessor's scumminess.

That's all from me for now - I'll back a Pisskop or ABR lynch today, no sense in lynching outside of that duo.

[Battle Mage]

If BM is town, then scum putting BM in a trap that requires you to sacrifice yourself or face the consequences is a really smart move.

He's obviously not gonna do it cause he thinks he's god, scum gets free bonuses, and then you get a super easy mislynches on BM cause the choice is insane coming from a town mindset

That's the only reason I'm not voting you BM. I can still see the possibility you're actually arrogant enough to think the town would lose without you, so it's worth killing several other people

It is possible that you've just been playing that character for the explicit purpose of being able to trigger negative scumtraps and hide behind "What? You expect me to kill myself? I'm carrying town". I dont know

The night 1 decision was objectively right I think. The night 3 decision - probably not in retrospect, but at the time I was pretty frustrated at how badly the previous day got fucked up after all the effort I put in.

[Battle Mage]

To be more precise, what do you mean by "essentially confirmed town?

at the time I'd just single-handedly led a scum lynch from nothing, within my own hood (at a time when the unanimous view was that there was only 1 scum in our hood). So I was essentially conf-town, in that nobody in their right mind would be lynching me (as everyone else would have told you at the time...). But I had the added benefit of being able to actually influence things, whereas a hidden IC couldn't do that (and in a game full of cops and stuff, an IC isn't that powerful anyway...)

[Battle Mage]

Have BM go in a self-incriminating trap
Pisskop!scum says that GL and TSE both advocated for BM's lynch.
Leave Morning alive, she's going to be upset with BM
Leave Ircher alive, he hard scumreads BM

It's a really simple and quick mislynch plan and then you win the game. I kinda thought that Ircher and myself were good candidates for the trap, not GuiltyLion/TSE/pisskop

this is probably pretty close to the mark. Incidentally the timing of when I've been trapped, also implicates ABR-scum.

[Battle Mage]

TrueSoulEnergy has been killed night 3! He was Daniel Matthews, a Son aligned with Jigsaw's Chosen

Welcome to Jigsaw's Revenge TrueSoulEnergy!

You are Daniel Matthews, a Son aligned with Jigsaw's Chosen



"My Dad's a... he's a real hard ass. You know, he's probably got half the city out looking for me, just so he can kick my ass for disappearing on him."

Abilities
-During the day, you may vote for whoever you want to arrest on suspicion of being involved in the Jigsaw murders.
-You know your father is on the hunt for you. You know VaultDweller is Eric Matthews, and is one of Jigsaw's Chosen. However, they do not know your identity.

You win once all of Jigsaw's Acolytes have been eliminated.
The game thread is here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=82769

Am I town yet BM?

Yep!

I can't be right all the time...

[Battle Mage]

Ok Ircher is definitely town. So that helps.

Good chance there is 1 scum in {Firebringer, BBMolla}

No idea why it's so damn hard to lynch ABR - his play this game has been as inconsistent and haphazard as anything I've ever seen on this site, and yet throughout he has made no attempt to hide the fact he is scum. MT saving him yesterday was a turning point in this game.

so Ircher, VD, BM = town

Pisskop has started to win me over a little bit today, so let's play it extra safe.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: ABR

We may as well go out swinging at the most likely scum player. Anyone buying that ABR is some nonchalant frustrated town who is throwing the game today, after all the effort he has put in, is mad.

[Battle Mage]

To be more precise, what do you mean by "essentially confirmed town?

at the time I'd just

single-handedly

led a scum lynch

from nothing

, within my own hood (at a time when the unanimous view was that there was only 1 scum in our hood). So I was essentially conf-town, in that nobody in their right mind would be lynching me (as everyone else would have told you at the time...). But I had the added benefit of being able to actually influence things, whereas a hidden IC couldn't do that (and in a game full of cops and stuff, an IC isn't that powerful anyway...)

It's posts like these that I don't like. Hectic made the initial case. So "single-handedly" and "from nothing" are objectively false

Not my recollection matey, but I'm not going back to check now, so whatever!

It's nearly game over - time to join the righteous wagon, or close this one out. Don't think we can lynch outside of {BM, ABR} today anyway given the numbers.

[Battle Mage]

I think based on a voting standpoint, we'd have a higher chance of hitting scum voting for dave. Dave could be partnered with scum!BM. Dave could be on the scumteam framing town!BM.

At the same time, if BM is in fact scum, I'd be extremely unhappy with allowing him to get away with everything he's done so far. Additionally, it's possible that scum!BM is just being bussed here

So yeah, I can just take the safe option, whatever it's GG and we lose if he's town. Can't really be upset about that.

Or we could try and hit dave just to see what happens. i dont really know what the odds are of this one workin yet. Me believing pisskop is hurting the chances a little

The idea that it's ok to lynch me when I'm quite clearly town, but justifying it because of how I handled a trap, is lame. I've already said my piece on night actions, so won't be made to feel more guilty - last night was a bad move, night 1 was the right move. But gimme a break, aside from that, I've been all over this game, scumhunting to the max.

If you gave my setup theory the benefit of the doubt yesterday by lynching ABR we could be in a great position now. All the knowledge of flavour we have, has been completely wasted in this game - achieving no benefit for town (which is a crying shame if we're both town).

It isn't too late to actually try and win this game...

If I was scum here, do you really think I'd even care enough to spend time discussing anything, with the game virtually won? In contrast, ABR is just popping up frequently to gloat about being on the cusp of victory.

I don't think Dave is even voting for me, so setting this up as BM vs Dave is a wild stab in the dark.

I'm sticking with ABR, and that's final - we either lynch conf-scum today or it's game over, seems quite apt.

Confirm Vote: ABR

[Battle Mage]

Claim time.

I am a 3-shot Investigator. I can investigate someone and see if they rigged the game within the last 2 nights (excluding jigsaw)
- Night 1 I did nothing
- Night 2 I investigated iDanyboy/bingle. I got a negative result
- Night 3 I investigated BM. I got a negative result

Discuss.

So me and Bingle are conftown (or Jigsaw)? Sweet!

And by the way, if anyone seriously thinks I'm freaking Jigsaw, in the survivor hood, and deliberately bussed my only cover on Day 1, then put myself in traps 2/3 nights, you're ribbing.

Also this confirms Jigsaw is not the only one placing traps, so our previous discussion about killing Jigsaw ending the traps was wrong.

And for what it's worth, I don't think Bingle/Idanyboy is Jigsaw either. Would his team bus him so hard if he was? Would he have just replaced out, with his team in such a strong position? Not convinced of that.

[Battle Mage]

We may as well go out swinging at the most likely scum player. Anyone buying that ABR is some nonchalant frustrated town who is throwing the game today, after all the effort he has put in, is mad.

every single vote on you is 100% justified. to call voting you "throwing the game" is a terrible misinterpretation of the situation

Erm, like at least 1 of them is from scum, probably 2.

If you're town, you do have a genuine choice today between throwing the game and lynching me even though you basically know I'm town, or actually giving me the benefit of the doubt and having a chance of lynching scum. The defence of "You deserve to be lynched BM, because you were mean to me" or even "BM, you deserve to be lynched because you made a bad choice on a trap, despite otherwise playing a great obvtown game" ain't all that, but I won't labour the point.

[Battle Mage]

Oh I interpreted negative as guilty. That was really confusing for a moment.

The idea that it's ok to lynch me when I'm quite clearly town, but justifying it because of how I handled a trap, is lame. I've already said my piece on night actions, so won't be made to feel more guilty - last night was a bad move, night 1 was the right move. But gimme a break, aside from that, I've been all over this game, scumhunting to the max.

If you gave my setup theory the benefit of the doubt yesterday by lynching ABR we could be in a great position now. All the knowledge of flavour we have, has been completely wasted in this game - achieving no benefit for town (which is a crying shame if we're both town).

It isn't too late to actually try and win this game...

If I was scum here, do you really think I'd even care enough to spend time discussing anything, with the game virtually won? In contrast, ABR is just popping up frequently to gloat about being on the cusp of victory.

I don't think Dave is even voting for me, so setting this up as BM vs Dave is a wild stab in the dark.

I'm sticking with ABR, and that's final - we either lynch conf-scum today or it's game over, seems quite apt.

Confirm Vote: ABR

Quite clearly town is massively overselling yourself. I can see town!you making this choice in the game last night, so I can't really confirm you as scum over it, like many others in the thread have. It's making me very paranoid. You also massively overestimate your scumhunting abilities. It's really painful to read

You really never were able to convince me, nor anyone else of your flavour theory. It just didn't make sense to me. You couldn't have done anything different. It just sounds wrong. im sorry dude

I would say ABR sounds more like he thinks the game is lost due to you throwing than anything.

What does dave voting for you have to do with it?

I'm playing around with the idea of setting the lynch to someone entirely different from you on the chance it hits scum. Only problem is I really just want to lynch you and end the game. Vault is helping though.

If you and me are both town, and we lose this game, I will be quite disappointed. Because with the flavour stuff, we really should have had it in the bag if we'd worked together. And I'm not JUST blaming you in that scenario - it's my responsibility too, for not being able to persuade you. But really, we made a big mistake yesterday not going with it. Look at the setup so far - 3 mislynches for a scum win? Do you really think a flavour solve which town can theoretically crack, is game-breaking? I actually think it's essential, and rewards town for engaging properly with the theme of the game.

And MT - I never managed to convince you of

anything

. I think that's also on both of us, because you never really gave me the benefit of the doubt on anything from Day 3 onwards. But if we lynch ABR and he flips Amanda Young, maybe you'll actually go on and win this game?

[Battle Mage]

Claim time.

I am a 3-shot Investigator. I can investigate someone and see if they rigged the game within the last 2 nights (excluding jigsaw)
- Night 1 I did nothing
- Night 2 I investigated iDanyboy/bingle. I got a negative result
- Night 3 I investigated BM. I got a negative result

Discuss.

So me and Bingle are conftown (or Jigsaw)? Sweet!

And by the way, if anyone seriously thinks I'm freaking Jigsaw, in the survivor hood, and deliberately bussed my only cover on Day 1, then put myself in traps 2/3 nights, you're ribbing.

Also this confirms Jigsaw is not the only one placing traps, so our previous discussion about killing Jigsaw ending the traps was wrong.

And for what it's worth, I don't think Bingle/Idanyboy is Jigsaw either. Would his team bus him so hard if he was? Would he have just replaced out, with his team in such a strong position? Not convinced of that.

Confirmed town is a bit of an exaggeration. If scum sets 2-3 traps each night, then only 2-3 members of the 4 member team would show up as guilty. Minus jigsaw. So 1-2 members.

Well.. GuiltyLion and TSE think you did bus. And at least half the living thread does as well. Also putting you in traps has done nothing but help the scumteam. so..

You notice how hard it's been to lynch Bingle? He almost gets less votes than ABR. Calling him getting "bussed hard" is not exactly the case

Do you look at every post I make with the intention of finding every possible way of disagreeing with everything? Regardless of alignment, you've made this really hard work

I don't care massively what TSE thought - given he replaced in and hadn't read the game at all, iirc? And this testimony presumably relies on Pisskop being town, which isn't guaranteed?

Bingle/Danyboy has been under pressure throughout - in a way which could indicate low-level scum, but unlikely to be a big scum power role.

It's possible I bussed, but it doesn't make any strategic sense. And also worth noting for future days, Firebringer is very familiar with my play as scum, and should know better than to be voting for me here. Although I don't know why I'm bothering to tell you this, as you won't ever listen to me anyway.

But I do maintain that, if you're scum, you've played exceptionally well in dominating the game, saving a buddy and avoiding much scrutiny.

[Battle Mage]

We may as well go out swinging at the most likely scum player. Anyone buying that ABR is some nonchalant frustrated town who is throwing the game today, after all the effort he has put in, is mad.

every single vote on you is 100% justified. to call voting you "throwing the game" is a terrible misinterpretation of the situation

Erm, like at least 1 of them is from scum, probably 2.

If you're town, you do have a genuine choice today between throwing the game and lynching me even though you basically know I'm town, or actually giving me the benefit of the doubt and having a chance of lynching scum. The defence of "You deserve to be lynched BM, because you were mean to me" or even "BM, you deserve to be lynched because you made a bad choice on a trap, despite otherwise playing a great obvtown game" ain't all that, but I won't labour the point.

I don't blame them for using this tactic to get you lynched.

Leave Morning/Ircher alive, have BM make a dumbass choice in a trap, lead a quicklynch. He'll probably continue being a bit of a prick in thread, you'll be able to accuse him of being arrogant and guilt-tripping Morning into thinking she's the biggest anti-town idiot in the game, and bam BM is lynched.

I would not feel sorry at all letting them get away with that. I am generally more agreeable to more pleasant players.

I would, however, feel a lot of regret if you're scum and I stopped your lynch.

I think you're probably not scum. But is it worth the risk? Is it worth joining you on ABR? Not to mention I'd prefer.. anyone else on your wagon, probably

My current guess if you're town would probably be that Pisskop/ABR are the less likely scum on you, whereas BB/Fire are the more likely scum.

I still think Dave gets added onto that as well based off how he's played in this game as a whole, as well as his voting pattern. The guy has only voted for Hectic and Drixx

I'm very pleasant! MorningTweet, you seem like a genuinely nice person. I don't know if you're town or scum. For me personally, your play has been immensely frustrating because it has seemed to undercut and undermine everything I've tried to do. And I do think the way you've done it has looked very anti-town at times. And I do think you single-handedly saved ABR yesterday - if you had backed his lynch, we would have got it done. It's definitely not a personal thing against you, so I'm sorry if you feel that way. As I say, if you're town, you've just made it incredibly hard work for me by fighting at every turn when we could have worked together productively. Although as I say, I'm not convinced you're town anyway. If you are town, you need to let the personal feelings towards me go, and play the game as it was intended (to try and lynch the player most likely to be scum).

[Battle Mage]

Do you look at every post I make with the intention of finding every possible way of disagreeing with everything? Regardless of alignment, you've made this really hard work

I don't care massively what TSE thought - given he replaced in and hadn't read the game at all, iirc? And this testimony presumably relies on Pisskop being town, which isn't guaranteed?

Bingle/Danyboy has been under pressure throughout - in a way which could indicate low-level scum, but unlikely to be a big scum power role.

It's possible I bussed, but it doesn't make any strategic sense. And also worth noting for future days, Firebringer is very familiar with my play as scum, and should know better than to be voting for me here. Although I don't know why I'm bothering to tell you this, as you won't ever listen to me anyway.

But I do maintain that, if you're scum, you've played exceptionally well in dominating the game, saving a buddy and avoiding much scrutiny.

Yeah and I don't think you've accepted being wrong a single time. Even after mislynching Xtoxm or giving scum two nightkills

I'm assuming Pisskop is town at this point, see earlier posts. Yeah TSE's reads aren't massively valuable to me. GL's are though

How does bussing not make any strategic sense???? What?

Stop putting the "if you're scum" bit at the bottom. If I'm scum you've already lost. There's no reason to talk to me if I'm scum

I did accept I was wrong about both those things (although the Xtoxm thing was because of ABR) - but I think this falls in the category of you either not reading my posts carefully because you have a personal issue with me and always want me to be wrong, or deliberately misrepping because you're scum.

GuiltyLion was a great player here - although if he did think I was scum, he was wrong about that.

I'm definitely not convinced you're town, so trying to get bragging rights off me that way isn't going to work. I'm 3 away from a lynch, with 2/3 scum not voting for me. You are incredibly active, but some people haven't posted yet. If you're scum, I expect you to be hammering here, not jumping on early.

And I mean, like, seriously dude - if you're lynching me because I was wrong about Xtoxm, and misplayed a trap, when we are 120 pages deep, I've got a cop-inno, and everything about my play has oozed town throughout, I don't know what to tell ya! But I don't think you can lynch me today on that basis, and blame me with the line "I didn't have any choice". Good town player sees bigger picture and doesn't allow scum decision-making to dictate their lynches (especially in a game with ~3 NKs a night).

[Battle Mage]

If you and me are both town, and we lose this game, I will be quite disappointed. Because with the flavour stuff, we really should have had it in the bag if we'd worked together. And I'm not JUST blaming you in that scenario - it's my responsibility too, for not being able to persuade you. But really, we made a big mistake yesterday not going with it. Look at the setup so far - 3 mislynches for a scum win? Do you really think a flavour solve which town can theoretically crack, is game-breaking? I actually think it's essential, and rewards town for engaging properly with the theme of the game.

And MT - I never managed to convince you of

anything

. I think that's also on both of us, because you never really gave me the benefit of the doubt on anything from Day 3 onwards. But if we lynch ABR and he flips Amanda Young, maybe you'll actually go on and win this game?

If you're town I'll be a bit disappointed as well. I think you had a good ability to seem town, but your arrogance is a huge turn off. You're like ABR confidence-wise, but a lot less fun to play with

Three mislynches + We played out the traps really poorly (see Hectic, pisskop traps) + We vig shot a townie. Yeah, it's a tough game. I don't think the game being tough is a good reason for the game to have a game-breaking flavour solve. Who does your flavour solve still implicate, anyway? You keep calling me part of the scumteam for some reason. I'll reread your big post if you put it in there dont worry

You convinced me of momo, to an extent. In my mind I more remember Hectic giving the case though.

Less fun to play with than ABR? ouch, that one stings! Especially given how this game went earlier

Thankfully this is effectively my last game, as all this personal stuff is just a bit much for what is meant to be a bit of fun!

On Momo, I think it was my case initially and Hectic jumped on early as he was keen not to be lynched. It wouldn't surprise me at all if you found him more persuasive than me, but I did start the move at least.

Yes I definitely don't want to lose sight of you as being potential scum (especially as I'm the only person who seems to acknowledge that is a possibility, which is quite scary....).

My flavour solve means ABR is scum, at least 1 of BBmolla and Pisskop is scum, and there is at least 1, but perhaps only 1 scum in cop-hood. Which means lynching from within the cop-hood today is kamikaze.

[Battle Mage]

I'm very pleasant! MorningTweet, you seem like a genuinely nice person. I don't know if you're town or scum. For me personally, your play has been immensely frustrating because it has seemed to undercut and undermine everything I've tried to do. And I do think the way you've done it has looked very anti-town at times. And I do think you single-handedly saved ABR yesterday - if you had backed his lynch, we would have got it done. It's definitely not a personal thing against you, so I'm sorry if you feel that way. As I say, if you're town, you've just made it incredibly hard work for me by fighting at every turn when we could have worked together productively. Although as I say, I'm not convinced you're town anyway. If you are town, you need to let the personal feelings towards me go, and play the game as it was intended (to try and lynch the player most likely to be scum).

We have clashing playstyles. Remember earlier in the game when you scumread me for making sorta pointless readslists that just have town on them? You said you value finding scum above all. I prefer townhunting. I'm not surprised we disagree on other things, like the mechanics of flavour solves. I am okay with us disagreeing, I don't find you to be anti-town for having vastly different opinions and reads to me. Unlike you towards me.

You know why I fight you so much? You've consistently been really high on my town list. We need to be in agreement to win, since I have always thought we're town together. ABR I also thought was town together with us. So... what would I logically do if my townreads are fighting? Yeah. I'm sorry that's just how I've read the both of you.

I can live with us being town and not being able to agree. What makes me genuinely frustrated is when you try to suggest that I'm throwing the game away for town just because I have different opinions to you. You think so highly of your solves and your reads, that those who are opposing them have to be scum or anti-town. I really do not vibe well with that mindset.

This game has been unusual for me, as I've been very confident on my reads - I'm not always as confident as town. I approach the game honestly, so if I'm town and I ain't got a clue, I'll just say that. It's because I believe you are smart, especially on the flavour stuff, and also that I see you are open-minded on a lot of players, the fact you are close-minded in relation to me when I'm pushing somebody like ABR, is scummy. Because I think that if you were town you would be open-minded on that as well, and would want to use your knowledge, rather than brush it under the carpet. I think your defence of ABR was really weak, and miraculously saved him yesterday. If he is scum, as I believe, we could have been in a strong position today. But it is what it is, and at the end of the game, you can see whether I was right or wrong.

[Battle Mage]

Less fun to play with than ABR? ouch, that one stings! Especially given how this game went earlier

Thankfully this is effectively my last game, as all this personal stuff is just a bit much for what is meant to be a bit of fun!

On Momo, I think it was my case initially and Hectic jumped on early as he was keen not to be lynched. It wouldn't surprise me at all if you found him more persuasive than me, but I did start the move at least.

Yes I definitely don't want to lose sight of you as being potential scum (especially as I'm the only person who seems to acknowledge that is a possibility, which is quite scary....).

My flavour solve means ABR is scum, at least 1 of BBmolla and Pisskop is scum, and there is at least 1, but perhaps only 1 scum in cop-hood. Which means lynching from within the cop-hood today is kamikaze.

it wasn't right for Xtoxm/ABR to snap at you like they did. But now im not really surprised about it, in hindsight

Yeah it was something like that. I might have starting townreading you before it and I was convinced by it. Can't really remember now. Also I went with you on Xtoxm, cause I thought you had a convincing reason to lynch him. So there's 2 examples. Sort of.

ty for the reminder of the flavour thing, i'm gonna keep it in mind just on the off-chance it's actually right. Don't know if I can compromise on ABR yet though

this is the problem really - people thinking that sort of thing is ok. But it is what it is - I'm done for this one. Although, as always, people will give me loads of shit during and post-game about how bad I played or whatever, the fact is I've played a good game here, had a good reads for the most part, and pushed hard to lynch scum. If I hadn't played as well as I have, town would have been railroaded much much earlier. And despite the abusive behaviour of some, it has been a fun game as I've said, and thanks again to the Mod for that. Let's cut the crap, and make it simple:

We are lynching ABR or BM today. I've got a cop innocent on me from the conf-town VD, I'm quite obviously town, but admittedly I haven't always made optimal decisions. ABR is obviously scum who has barely even tried to hide it, if anyone would even bother to look. Make your choice.

-Adios-

[Battle Mage]

Spoiler: Claims

Morning Tweet
Ircher - Can escape traps, gave ability to ABR.
VaultDweller - Checks whether people have set traps on previous 2 nights, 3 shot. Checked me N2, BM N3.
Bingle - Cop who can only check in hood, 2 shot. Role PM says Jigsaw is a godfather.
davesaz - Softed hard that he's a cop that checks if someone is Jigsaw. Maybe innocent result on Drixx? (God Drixx wagon was awful.)
BBmolla - Confirmed Reporter
pisskop - Breaks out of traps, kills people in trap with him.
Eddie Cane
Battle Mage
Titus
Firebringer

Spoiler: Hoods

Cops

Ircher
VaultDweller
Bingle
Eddie Cane
davesaz

Hood w/ deadscum

Battle Mage
Titus

FBI Hood

Morning Tweet
Firebringer

No Hood

BBmolla
pisskop

Spoiler: Clears

VaultDweller - Town
Ircher - Town or Jigsaw
Battle Mage - Did not trap N1 or N2.
Bingle - Did not trap N1.
Morning Tweet
Eddie Cane
davesaz
BBmolla
pisskop
Titus
Firebringer

{Morning Tweet, Eddie Cane, davesaz, BBmolla, pisskop, Titus, Firebringer} Contains 1-4 scum from a public PoV. I'm going to assume 0-1 erroneous clears for now. Definitely want to lynch outside of the clears. Thinking a little bit more, it would make sense thematically that the one with control of the loudspeakers would be Jigsaw, but I think scum with that role would be too self conscious about it to self confirm immediately. Maybe?

I'm still wigged the fuck out by MT, but I think I'm alone there. Dave needs to firm up his claim and out results. He shouldn't have been allowed to not do that yesterday with the shitty ass soft. We also probably need a full massclaim at this point, especially if we're in likely MYLO.

You might be right about BBMolla flavour-wise. The claim is substantiated, and it seems that scum are given flavour fakeclaims only - we haven't yet seen one flip with a fake role which can be substantiated. However, Jigsaw might be the exception. And I did say aaaages ago, I thought Jigsaw would not be in any hood.

Also worth noting I was at L-3 for quite a while without being lynched. Which suggests at least 1 or 2 of Titus/BBmolla/Firebringer are scum (otherwise they could theoretically have hammered).

Agree with your read on MT, but also agree that we can't be going there today, and it's one to watch for future.

[Battle Mage]

VOTE: Firebringer

I feel more comfortable with this.

given the situation, this makes me more comfortable with a Titus-BBmolla pair, and Firebringer just being town, of the early wagonners.

[Battle Mage]

Did nobody else comment on the fact that ABR replaced out, rather than risk getting lynched? Not dissimilar to earlier in the game when he asked to replace out because he was under scrutiny. Pattern?

[Battle Mage]

co-ordinating votes to quick hammer in LyLo as scum is incredibly easy - I literally just won a game as scum doing that.

[Battle Mage]

ah sorry Mod, I wasn't alleging he'd broken a site rule - merely that the timing didn't look great, on top of everything else. Am sure we had a similar discussion about Danyboy earlier.

[Battle Mage]

Hey Bingle - I definitely suspected you! But never keen to lynch in the cop-hood.

Spoiler: every player who posted on the page I repped in, sans mod.

Youre being run up in high pace bingle and need to fullclaim

I think your slot is extremely mafia. You should full claim with bonus points on how quick you do.

I pretty much agree with you dave yea

Ideally id like to give iDany-Bingie another day and reevaluate. If we mislynch town!idany down the line we got more info too

hia Bingie!

The mod stated there could be multiples, I think? So a CC doesn't automatically mean one is each alignment.

That's not the basis of my hesitation though, un-CC'd isn't essential. Claims just make me stop in general, mostly because of golden rule and hating it when the shoe is on the other foot and people don't stop when I'm the town who trueclaims. My TM game is a perfect example. A CC would reduce that hesitation but would just leave me with a 1v1 to solve.

The "only in the Police hood" thing is an aspect that makes fakeclaim a real possibility for me. If scum needed to eliminate someone from "police" at a critical juncture with a fake guilty it would be the best kind of cover. Plus it's good cover for not investigating scummy people outside that hood. And I certainly don't see town in iDany's posting. I would have said that it's just as likely to be fake as real, but I think we're on the same page there.

VOTE: idanyboy

As a note, most of these are still alive.

Everyone suspected me, no one was willing to vote me because my predecessor claimed cop.

[Battle Mage]

VOTE: Firebringer

I feel more comfortable with this.

given the situation, this makes me more comfortable with a Titus-BBmolla pair, and Firebringer just being town, of the early wagonners.

Hmm, what do you have to say about my VCA. Wildly accurate or inaccurate?

You came up with me as a top suspect right? So not particularly accurate - although from a skim, wasn't your analysis mostly just:

"VC1.1

BM looks bad"

?

Apologies if I'm doing a disservice, still catching up. You have all my sympathies for replacing into a very tough spot.

[Battle Mage]

co-ordinating votes to quick hammer in LyLo as scum is incredibly easy - I literally just won a game as scum doing that.

did you coordinate 4 votes in a large theme game? That could go horribly wrong and wouldnt be that easy to set up

I mean, really, it was Titus who inexplicably referred to "4-5 votes". In reality, I was at -3, so it would only require a further 3 votes. And my game was only a small one, so we did it with 3 people. But it doesn't really matter - the principle is exactly the same, and it's something I expect every half decent scumteam to be agreeing well before LyLo.

[Battle Mage]

Hey Bingle - I definitely suspected you! But never keen to lynch in the cop-hood.

I know, you just didn't express that on that page.

I think the only one who actually thought I was solidly town yesterday was Irch. Similar to how I was the only one who actually thought Drixx was town.

Erm dude, I've been saying Drixx was town since like page 20, and never wavered from that.

[Battle Mage]

Yes, my analysis is largely my conclusions right now. I have an appointment in roughly 30 minutes and then I'll be out the rest of the day.

I can't really blame you - it's a tough spot.

[Battle Mage]

Did nobody else comment on the fact that ABR replaced out, rather than risk getting lynched? Not dissimilar to earlier in the game when he asked to replace out because he was under scrutiny. Pattern?

I didn't sub in specifically because I knew ABR was here. Let's just say ABR is a bully fmpov and takes it personally when he gets wagoned. He makes the game as toxic as possible. Hence why my first post was an apology but I haven't read the entire game.

It sounds like you've read enough of the game

I like you already <3

[Battle Mage]

ABR's replaceout doesnt strike me as scum indictative, scum is very close to winning the game and i dont think they're fearing BM right now.

Definitely see town!ABR replacing out. Town is having extremely little fun right now, and now we were threatening to lynch ABR for the lose. It's very tempting to throw in the towel so you dont have to play any longer

I think if the pool of {Titus, Ircher, BM, Vault} came together and agreed on a wagon, thatd be pretty appealing

3 scum and 1 town agreeing on a wagon? I don't love the sound of it. Especially when 2 of those 3 have already agreed on a wagon, which you don't like.

I wonder if scum-ABR would not want getting lynched on his resume, particularly if it blows the game open as I suspect it would. I also think town-ABR would be delighted to get mislynched here and blame me endlessly in the post-game for screwing the town.

[Battle Mage]

Eh. I stopped listening to you when I decided that even if you/ABR weren't TvT it wasn't worth parsing yesterday.

might be worth going back for a look then

[Battle Mage]

ABR has a rep for being hard to get along with.

I've never had a personal issue with him (except for one game that he got way too salty and outed his team in) but knowing ABR is abrasive is almost a given if you've been on site as long as Titus and I have.

It's funny though, I used to play with him a decade ago, and he was always a good dude - no issues! Was actually really excited to play this game with him (as Titus can see from the PT haha)

[Battle Mage]

BM, how long have you had your current reads?

I think early D2? He hasn't meaningfully reevaluated since ABR became his top priority iirc.

I didn't even suspect ABR until Day 3. I think probably right to say I've been pretty consistent with my reads since then, apart from where claims etc have changed things. Although that is only 1 game-day.

[Battle Mage]

What are your thoughts on Firebringer specifically BM?

He's a great guy. Alignment hard to call - could be town or scum. Pretty low down the list of people I'd be lynching in the next couple days. It's not a conundrum to worry about today.

[Battle Mage]

BM, how long have you had your current reads?

I think early D2? He hasn't meaningfully reevaluated since ABR became his top priority iirc.

I didn't even suspect ABR until Day 3. I think probably right to say I've been pretty consistent with my reads since then, apart from where claims etc have changed things. Although that is only 1 game-day.

The reason I ask this is because you have to ask yourself (if town), why am I alive in lylo? It's pretty obvious why my slot is alive.

Could be lots of reasons for that, although all WIFOM of course.

If town, it could be because your slot was given a key on Night 2 which allows them to escape from any trap?

Or alternatively because your slot is simply scum?

[Battle Mage]

@BM, Vault is hard confirmed town.

...I know. Why are you saying this?

[Battle Mage]

Yeah, that's def possible. My knowledge of the thread before my rep in is spotty at best. Mostly ISOs and skimming.

I still maintain that ABR's taking credit for the momo lynch looks 100% like town ABR, your stance on momo doesn't look like a bus, and 1 scum in a 4 person neighborhood is a perfectly reasonable choice. I might be wrong (and frequently am) but that's my take on that whole situation. I think someone mentioned you had a large case on ABR when I repped in, do you happen to have a post number?

As you asked nicely, I will go and (try to) find it.

[Battle Mage]

@BM, Vault is hard confirmed town.

...I know. Why are you saying this?

Ohhhh, I typo-ed. Meant to be 3 town and 1 scum.

[Battle Mage]

@BM, Vault is hard confirmed town.

...I know. Why are you saying this?

3 scum and 1 town agreeing on a wagon? I don't love the sound of it. Especially when 2 of those 3 have already agreed on a wagon, which you don't like.

Haha yeah, I got the scum and town mixed up in the first sentence (I'm assuming Ircher is town). Kinda ironic really...

[Battle Mage]

Reposting the below from early yesterday as requested.

Battle Mage's Setup Theory

4 person survivor hood - includes 2 scum (Momo and ABR)
3 person FBI hood - NO SCUM
8 person (Cop?) hood - Likely only 1 scum, outside chance of 2.
No hood - Likely 2 scum, outside chance of 1.

I'll case ABR properly later, but wanted to set out my theory on the setup first. Reason for this is partly flavour (I spent the night phase reading up on all the Saw flavour!) and partly what I think the Mod would do to balance the game whilst making it consistent with the flavour.

Assumption:

Flavour consistency is very important to the Mod. So far, everyone in hoods, has conformed to the flavour of that hood. This INCLUDES SCUM. Momo had a fakeclaim of a town survivor, but his actual scum character was a survivor in the movies.

One of the premier baddies in Saw is a character called Amanda Young. She was also, notably, a Jigsaw Survivor. My hypothesis is that ABR is Amanda Young, and therefore my hood contained 2 scum originally.

There was only 1 cop who was a baddy in the franchise, Det Mark Hoffman. So he is presumably in the 8-person hood.

John Kramer (Jigsaw) would be outside of any hood. And the remaining scum, I theorise, is most likely to be Lawrence Gordon, who was a doctor, and wouldn't fit in any of the hoods either.

From a gameplay perspective, unbalanced number of scum in the hoods makes sense (to give false positives in the small hood, and everyone chasing shadows in the big hood with only 1 scum). Hoods with the right proportions of scum would be too town heavy, especially with the amount of PRs. Plus it's Saw, so the point is the game is meant to screw with you.

In the game that means:

ABR is scum.
There is 2 scum within: Pisskop, BBmola, Vecna and GuiltyLion
Blake and MorningTweet are town.
There is only 1 scum in big hood, which I still think is Danyboy (especially if ABR is scum, as he loves Danyboy). But we shouldn't be hitting here yet as we have lower mathematical odds of success.

Why ABR is scum

1. PT Behaviour on Day 1 and post-lynch:

I noted at outset of Day 2 his behaviour in PT is exactly what I would expect from him as scum (and only Momo's behaviour made me think he was clean).
He was initially not keen to throw suspicion on others in the hood, and just wanted everyone to follow him. He just 'assumed' Momo and I were town, and only suggested Pine was scum when Pine wouldn't toe the line. ABR was non-committal on my Momo scum-read, and didn't engage with it until after the flip. After the flip, he was excited and jubilant, and claimed credit for the lynch.

2. Flavour:

As noted in my setup theory, I think Amanda Young is highly likely in the game, as a survivor. ABR has instead claimed, in the PT, that he is Corbett Denlon - the child of 2 confirmed townies. She was not a prominent feature of the film franchise, so I'm not sure she would be a character in the game, especially given both her parents were. She was also never subject to Jigsaw's traps, so I wouldn't really call her a 'survivor' at all, and she'd be way way down on the list of likely survivor characters compared to Amanda Young. Gut says it MUST be a fakeclaim.

3. PT Behaviour Night 1 onwards:

During Night 1, ABR suddenly became frantically active in the PT, having neglected it for a while before that (me and Pine were both stuck in traps at this point of course). He claimed his role and flavour, and also claimed that Xtoxm was a "mailman" (incidentally, not what he flipped), and then gave the story I repeated yesterday in order to make me suspect Xtoxm, which on reflection may not have been true. He was not keen on my suggestion of lynching those not in a PT, which suggests if ABR flips scum, there is some more credence to it. I made it clear that I didn't trust him (by not reciprocating his claim, or sharing info about what happened to me in my trap), and since then he has become very angry and aggressive in the PT.

4. Momo wagon:

ABR was not at all eager to get on the Momo wagon, despite my endless cajoling, and the fact he was pretty happy wagonning everybody else.

5. His approach to the hood:

ABR was very keen to reveal the identities of people in the hood, has put lots of effort into protecting everyone in that hood during the day, and has taken a firm line that 1 scum-flip confirms the others as town. Which is exactly what he would do as scum, knowing that 50% of the hood was scum.

6. No Traps:

If ABR was town, I think he would have been high on the list for scum to trap. He has claimed that he doesn't have any immunity to this. This is not conclusive, but very suspicious given scum have focussed on other veterans like me and Farside.

I'm stopping at 6 for now, there is more, but I think that's plenty, and everything else in the main thread so you can form your own view.

Vote: ABR

[Battle Mage]

It's unlikely that both BM and ABR are town, given I was at L-3, and ABR was at L-4 at the same time for a long period, with 4 scum in the game.

[Battle Mage]

Titus - I looked at your vote count analysis, there's no explanation for anything, and you've basically just named a bunch of players right? So my view would be, you've probably got some scum and some town in that mix.

[Battle Mage]

MT you said that extra traps would be coming, but from the mod's posts it doesn't look like that happened. Can you explain how you managed to escape a trap without having the consequences that you thought would happen?

Why is this something you're most curious about?

I'm not completely certain that it's not scum!you just skating away.
I mean good for town if you're town with a good explanation, not so good if you're scum on the way to a roflstomp.

im a bat with a trick or two up her sleeve. i can tell you that i knew the whole time there were not going to be any extra traps. check my messages at the end of d3 about the deadline

I don't really follow this - it seems like scum still have a steady supply of traps, given the rate they are churning through them.

[Battle Mage]

interesting that, if we assume Bingle and Ircher are town, that means at least 1 of Dave and Eddie Cane are scum. Haven't really spent much time thinking about that until now!

[Battle Mage]

Here's what I think about the BM / MT / ABR triangle.

ABR and BM could be scum theater. If it is, it's scummy worthy win or lose. But I really don't think they are scum together. Why would they bother? Behaviorally either one could be scum trying to take control of the game. I see both of them as highly manipulative, which is the definition of what scum wants isn't it? I kinda think at least one of this pair has to be scum.

BM and MT could be scum together, with BM trying to get ABR mislynched and MT playing the white night. Both of them escaped traps, which I'd expect scum to be able to do. That makes it another kind of theater, a good/bad split. That would also make for a good long-term strategy. They both look active and solvey while ABR is around, and if/when ABR flips town at least MT looks good. The wrench in this pairing is why would both of them as scum together escape traps with scum+ effects. In particular why would MT claim those effects (and then unclaim them).

BM and MT both town with ABR scum is plausible. It is not at all unusual for two townies to have polar opposite reads on a player. This would match my personal reads. I have thought ABR was pushing weird stuff all along. BM seeing it and MT not wouldn't be far fetched. For this to be the case we kinda have to squint at the trap escapes. Perhaps Tweet's reply to my question about the negative effects explains that.

The remaining scenario that's reasonable with at least one scum in this group is BM town, ABR & MT scum. This path requires MT to have escaped a trap, claimed that doing so will give scum more traps, and then as scum not setting that extra trap. This seems like a mistake that a team would not let happen. And I think MT's explanation of why there weren't more traps makes more sense as town revealing the hidden info than it does as scum trying to cover up.

Of this set, ABR is most likely scum. I have not looked yet at what it would mean if all are town.

VOTE: Titus

If me and MT were both scum and ABR was town, we would be eligible for whatever the opposite of a scummy is.

I'm a bit lost on the MT-traps stuff, can you explain to an idiot like me what happened and why you believe it's town? My gut feeling is pretty much everyone trapped so far is dead and was town. Of those remaining, MT's was a bit different to the others, and I do sorta buy the idea that scum might put 1 of their own in a trap to get towncred.

[Battle Mage]

Ok, Davesaz is probably scum.

I'm actually leaning town more after his last post.

[Battle Mage]

If ABR/BM are scum together it's a 3/4 scum neighborhood with a full mutual bus. That's just dumb, setup wise.

I have to say, that flavor case seems a lot stronger than any flavor case should ever be.

my flavour case? thanks man, appreciate that. <3

MT didn't agree though, and she is like a Saw expert.

[Battle Mage]

My conscience is totally clear with an ABR lynch today - we should have done it yesterday of course, and not be at LyLo having wasted a lynch on Drixx, but we are where we are.

If I'm wrong on this one, I will deservedly take all the flack in the post-game.

[Battle Mage]

ah definitely my fault - sorry town, and especially MT! You were much better at reading this than I was...