Dynasty Warriors Mafia (Shu Victorious)
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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ReaperCharlie wrote:elvis_knits wrote:HI! Let's see if I remember how to do this...
/confirm
When was the last time you played?
I think it's been like a year. I see some thing haven't changed. RayFrost is still... RayFrost.
I'm kind of excited to still know a fair amount of people here. <3Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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RayFrost wrote:mykonian wrote:
I think I get what we are supposed to do... and I have found scum! So now I should convince the town and then duel that person to death, right?
If you've found two scum then convince the town an then we have the two people die in a duel against each other.
OMG. Rayfrost is right. (sorry i can't stop razzing you! <3) Except I don't think both people die in a duel against each other.
If I am understanding the mechanic right, a player posts "DUEL: THATGUY" and then we have to lynch one of them and only one of them. I can see a scum exploiting that. They can challenge a person to a duel and then their buddies push the mislynch. I mean, maybe that's too obvious, but if they're skilled they could get away with it.
I say:
We decide together who our two top suspects are and force them to duel (and anybody who refuses to duel will be auto-lynched by the town via some townie who volunteers to duel them -- an enforcer perhaps nominated by the town). We should only have two scummy people dueling each other. No townie should take it upon themselves to duel someone they think is scum
Actually, NOBODY SHOULD DUEL ANYBODY UNLESS THE MAJORITY OF US AGREE TO IT.
That way we have as many people getting on record about potential duels as possible. We get more info this way, and hopefully town keeps control over who is in the duel, and then who gets lynched. Also we're guaranteed to have our two scummiest players in a duel.
Possible downside is the D ability thing. If scum win a duel they could get access to extra abilities. But if we see extra death after a duel, or something funny going on, then we know who to blame. So it might help us catch scum in the long run even though it could be bad/dangerous in the short term. And I think the pros of controlling the duel and getting info by everyone commenting on it, I think that outweighs this con. But speak up if I'm not foreseeing all possibilities, please!
Anyway, people, please comment on this strategy.
AGAIN: NOBODY SHOULD DUEL ANYBODY UNTIL WE DECIDE.Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Actually, looking at the rules, maybe we don't have to duel every day? We can lynch normally OR duel?
We have to think about the implications of dueling verses lynching old-fashioned way.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Oh... I was supposed to read the signup thread?
Here I was thinking I was cool...
Okay basically you're saying we want to:
Try to duel as much as possible to either kill two scum at once or empower a townie.
This assumes best case scenario. What if we end up killing two townies or empowering scum? I'm not sure I want to commit to this strategy throughout the game. I don't think I want to commit to a double lynch on the first day. I like to see a flip and look at the wagons for info. I really like playing aggressively, so a double lynch is pretty awesome, but I think we have to be smart about this too.
I think that it might be better to make two scummy players duel, make them both claim, kill one and try to confirm the other's night actions, or something like that. And then if we catch scum via this process of keeping tabs on the empowered guy, we can lynch him the next day, maybe in a double lynch duel.
I think a lot of that really depends on the circumstances of who is up for duel and how scummy I think they are.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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AlmasterGM wrote:elvis_knits wrote:Actually, NOBODY SHOULD DUEL ANYBODY UNLESS THE MAJORITY OF US AGREE TO IT.
No. SPYREX made this game and it was obviously meant to be played SPYREX style. The problem with the "majority of us" is that scum are in the majority, and can thus influence the decision.
I propose: if you are OBVTOWN, you are permitted to duel and/or order other people to duel. If you are NOT OBVTOWN, you are not permitted to start duels and/or order other people to duel. OBVTOWN people will form an alliance and work together to find scumz.
I'm not liking this at all. Who is coming up with the list of obvtown? You? You propose we give certain players license to duel and force others to duel and not others? No way. We rule by majority, like always in a mafia game. Yeah there are scum among us, but there always is. You trust some players more than others depending how scummy you see them. And you work with everyone in order to catch them doing scummy stuff. Like always.
I am an aggressive player and I love fast bold moves and games. I'm all in. But we have to think about what we're doing too. I have been in other games with similar mechanics that result in more than one player dead each day (like dynamite or something), and if you don't watch your arse you can lose a bunch of people in nothing flat and sometimes not have enough to go off in terms of getting other player's opinions. Then you're really in the hole, and scum are laughing. I'm not sure I want a double death on D1. I want to see a flip before committing to that amount of risk.
Whatever we do: I want every player to weigh in on who they want to duel and and why, if they want two dead or one, and who they want to lynch and why. We need that info to stack up over the days.
And no fucking way should any town player challenge anybody to a duel without a majority agreement. No fucking way. It is anti-town to act on something irreversible like deciding the duel for the town. We will get much more info if everyone decides together.Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Maxous wrote:
elvis knits - 31 wrote: We decide together who our two top suspects are and force them to duel (and anybody who refuses to duel will be auto-lynched by the town via some townie who volunteers to duel them
And this is why...'self hammer or else we lynch you'. Rarely a good idea.
Explain. I don't see your pov.
Maxous wrote:
It will probably be a good idea to ask permission before you duel.
I hope you mean ask the town's permission and not the other person's.
Maxous wrote:Oh and important : Have the person suspected claim before you declare a duel.
Claim before dueling? I guess that's okay if the person in question has majority of suspicion. I just don't want someone being like "Hey Mister I want to duel you so you should claim."
Maxous wrote:I would be of the opinion if somebody wants to duel and we trust them, let them do it. If nobody wants to duel then simply lynch.
DISAGREE. I don't want lynching power in any one person's hands. We decide by committee because it's harder for scum to take control completely away. Also, I want everybody in on everything so we have voting patterns and things like that to look back on later. More info = better.Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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So far I see:
Scummiest:
Myko for wanting to charge in and duel
AlmasterG for convoluted reasoning why we should not let majority rule
Maxous for promoting the idea that if we "trust" someone we give them free reign to duel
Amrun 59 gives me slight scum twinge by saying he was calling bastard scum as a "joke"
It has been my experience that in games like this where there are strategies that CLEARLY benefit scum, and some people push these strategies, THEY ARE SCUM.
vote mykoTalk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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OMG inhim.
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Max wrote:Let's say for example we the town determine Amrun and Juls to be the two most likely players to be mafia. We tell them to duel each-other and we will kill them both. If they don't do this we will lynch them one after the other.
Alas, it turns out Juls is town. If she calls this duel then she would be allowing herself as town to die without people lynching her (this is the equivalent of self-hammering as town) and therefore we get little info out of the lynch/death as opposed to analysing who voted to be her lynched.
That is why it is actually a bad move as town.
But I want people to be voted into dueling. I want duels to come as a result of a majority decision via voting for duel candidates. So we do get a lot of info. Whatever we end up doing, I want as many people taking definitive stances as possible so that we have as much info as possible.
I can understand why players wouldn't want to die, as we all want to live and win, but if there is enough support for a lynch, then I think players have to be willing to duel. It's the mechanic of the game.
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Juls 83 is good idea. If you're town about to be lynched, duel someone you want to empower.
Juls 105 pure gold.
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Magister Ludi thinking rayFrost is scummy is... scummy. Also mentioning toasty as possibly scummy is... scummy. (I'm not seeing toasty as scum) Then saying he never said toasty was scum... is scummier.
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Amrun's DK vote seems sort of pathetic given the amount of more important stuff going on. Fly-under-the-radar type vote.
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I have no knowledge of the flavor of this game, and I am glazing over about it. Did Magister Ludi make a slip? If yes, I would not be surprised as his play this far seemed scummy already.
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Myko 141 OMGUS votes me
Myko wrote:But it does show something: elvis is starting out passively. Caps don't help either, as she is just explaining with them that antitown = scum to her. She knows I'm not antitown.
There has been nothing passive about my play. I've been one of the most active posters so far, and I wanted to start voting even in pregame. What about that is passive? I am arguing strongly that I don't want scum like you floating the idea that town should be idiots and duel whoever and whenever they please.
confirm vote: myko
There has been some speculation about scum numbers in this game. This is what I think:
There is probably a low number of scum. The mechanic of this game is geared for a lot of early town deaths if we charge off and duel like crazy people. Double-lynch games need lower scum numbers. Also, there are probably scum PR's that can get empowered, which would also support lower scum numbers. Basically, scum want us to double-duel lynch between townies, or they want to duel with a townie and get empowered themselves. I'm not saying that anyone who wants to get empowered is scum, but I am saying that people who get empowered need to be scrutinized and held accountable if possible.
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I STRONGLY disagree with allowing any supposedly obvtown minority to have more control over duels than others. That reads to me like a recipe for disaster. One reason is scum can sometimes fool us, you know. Another reason is that letting everyone participate equally lets you see who is making scummy moves.
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I STRONGLY disagree with more than one dead guy for today. I say lynch or duel. Duel is probably more fun I guess, so I can go with that. But I only want one death. I want to see a flip and look at wagons before I agree to a double-death duel. And no fucking way do I agree to gammagoey double-double death explosion.Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Greyice:
This position and subsequent repeated ploys to convince the town that supposed obvtown players should be able to control the duel, and should be able to start a duel without majority agreement.
AlmasterGM wrote:elvis_knits wrote:Actually, NOBODY SHOULD DUEL ANYBODY UNLESS THE MAJORITY OF US AGREE TO IT.
No. SPYREX made this game and it was obviously meant to be played SPYREX style. The problem with the "majority of us" is that scum are in the majority, and can thus influence the decision.
I propose: if you are OBVTOWN, you are permitted to duel and/or order other people to duel. If you are NOT OBVTOWN, you are not permitted to start duels and/or order other people to duel. OBVTOWN people will form an alliance and work together to find scumz.Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Bastard 168... have you played a game here yet? Might want to read the wiki and a few newbie games...
C-worl 169 - NO. Are you a VI?If YOU DUEL ANYONE WITHOUT MAJORITY APPROVAL I WILL LUST FOR YOUR LYNCH LIKE A HORNY TEENAGER.This goes for anybody. Dueling without discussion and majority approval is scummy.
@inhim - game where scum tried to manipulate the public mechanic earlygame http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =dollhouse
@DK, everyone on my scum lists is people I've been talking about, so read my posts.
I guess I'll respond to myko in a separate post...Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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mykonian wrote:
elvis_knits wrote:Juls 83 is good idea. If you're town about to be lynched, duel someone you want to empower.
Elvis is either ignorant or scum here (hint, scum). This is this games equivalent of a selfhammer. Which means this is hardly a clear cut situation.
Please get a grip. It's a good idea. Maybe not in every situation, but generally, as an option, yes, it's a good idea for a dying town to try to empower a townie. When you can do nothing to prevent your death, help the town on the way down.
Myko wrote:
elvis can't remain behind when everybody else thinks Ludi is scummy!Magister Ludi thinking rayFrost is scummy is... scummy. Also mentioning toasty as possibly scummy is... scummy. (I'm not seeing toasty as scum) Then saying he never said toasty was scum... is scummier.
Well... I do think he's scummy. If you're trying to say I'm only doing it because everyone else is, the only thing I can tell you is I have unique reasoning which suggests I am being honest. Do you disagree that Ludi is scummy?
Myko wrote:
We needed some mud slung to Amrun too.Amrun's DK vote seems sort of pathetic given the amount of more important stuff going on. Fly-under-the-radar type vote.
I call stuff I think is scummy. Problem? Do you think I am wrong, or you just don't like me suspecting people?
Myko wrote:
Making absolutely clear she can hop on the wagon.I have no knowledge of the flavor of this game, and I am glazing over about it. Did Magister Ludi make a slip? If yes, I would not be surprised as his play this far seemed scummy already.
First of all, I will hope on whatever wagon I want. Second, I already thought he was scummy based on above, so get a grip. Third, I'm still voting you.
Myko wrote:
and then this gem:
Myko 141 OMGUS votes me
Myko wrote:But it does show something: elvis is starting out passively. Caps don't help either, as she is just explaining with them that antitown = scum to her. She knows I'm not antitown.
There has been nothing passive about my play. I've been one of the most active posters so far, and I wanted to start voting even in pregame. What about that is passive? I am arguing strongly that I don't want scum like you floating the idea that town should be idiots and duel whoever and whenever they please.
confirm vote: myko
It is true that she had her vote on me already, but that wasn't that odd, seen that I was the first wagon of the game. Meaning OMGUS is a very odd acronym to use in this situation. Further, Elvis is very quick in strawmanning the passivity argument there. Activity has nothing to do with aggressivity, and Elvis has clearly been holding back in all those posts of her. Just check the above mentioned statements about Ludi. Sure he is very scummy, and he probably made a slip, but I'm going to wait for confirmation from you guys if it really really was a slip.
YOU WERE THE FIRST WAGON OF THE GAME AFTER I VOTED YOU FIRST! Also, it got up to FOUR. In a game with 20 players. You scared?
It is also quite ridiculous to call me passive this game! I didn't vote Ludi yet. SO what? I want you dead, and I really have no idea about the slip thing so I'm waiting to hear more about it... just like you are! You're asking the same thing I asked, if the slip was real.
Myko wrote:
This is becoming a standard scumtell for me. Scum's biggest fear is suddenly being opposed by a large block of townies who have found each other. The above is only stating whatI STRONGLY disagree with allowing any supposedly obvtown minority to have more control over duels than others. That reads to me like a recipe for disaster.One reason is scum can sometimes fool us, you know.Another reason is that letting everyone participate equally lets you see who is making scummy moves.you shouldn't trust anybody.
You know, I actually do try to find townies I agree with in every game, so I understand the sentiment, and I understand that naturally players trust some players more than others. But I think it is REALLY BAD FUCKING NEWS to confirm people as obvtown based on gut and then let them run the show.
Myko wrote:
I STRONGLY disagree with more than one dead guy for today. I say lynch or duel. Duel is probably more fun I guess, so I can go with that. But I only want one death. I want to see a flip and look at wagons before I agree to a double-death duel. And no fucking way do I agree to gammagoey double-double death explosion.
Town wants more shots at scum. You wouldn't no lynch either in a normal game, nor would you hold your day-1-dayvig shot. This is just scum protecting her team and pulling the breaks on the town.confirm vote Elvis
If you can guarantee me two double-scum, double-death duels, I would agree to this. That would be awesome, myko, let's kill four scum today! Fuck yeah, you're my homey! Let's do this shit!
The reality of this is that we don't have enough information to kill off a quarter of the players in this game.
Actually,MOD, ARE PLAYER ALIGNMENTS REVEALED UPON DEATH OR END OF DAY?
I mean, if we want to have gamma duel somebody, see their flip, and then reduel accordingly, that could be okay. I just don't want us being stupid.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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ReaperCharlie wrote:elvis_knits wrote:If YOU DUEL ANYONE WITHOUT MAJORITY APPROVAL I WILL LUST FOR YOUR LYNCH LIKE A HORNY TEENAGER.
Screaming for town cred.
Unvote; Vote: elvis_knits
Am I too pro-town for you? Sorry.
Seriously. We need to have a no tolerance policy for people taking duels into their own hands.
And you know what, you want to be all stupid and allow that shit? Fine. But when you get down to lylo, you are going to have to lynch those people who took dueling into their own hands. Some of those people will be scum, some will be VI's, and some will be headstrong town. So you have your work cut out for you winning this game. And along the way you are letting scum, VI's and headstrong town decide the lynches. Seem good to you?Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Well I think theory is important because 1)scum push anti-town strategy; and 2)we can't let anti-town strategy rule the game (even when coming from mistaken town).
I haven't focused on theory totally. I also think amrun is giving off a little scummy vibes (first back off somehting as a joke, then voting DK in the midst of much important discussion), I think Ludi's suspicion of RF and toasty was really ridiculous. I also am undecided about the greyice thing. He asks me why I think AGM is scum (can't he build his own case?), then when AGM calls him scum he votes AGM. I also think he had a line in there about loving death, which made me uncomfortable.
I don't know, I can try to look at things without considering mechanics at all to perhaps give myself some perspective on the larger picture -- but i really feel strongly about the mechanics. I am absolutely certain that we can find scum pushing the anti-town strategy. We need to pressure those people to find out which ones are scum.Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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The list is pretty much from scummiest to least scummy. I will probably summarize as I go along, and repeat reasons, I just didn't want to clog the thread unnecessarily, or spend too much time doing something just for you (as lovely as you may be )
I don't mean to be difficult; I will explain more on people as needed, but I'm trying to put it all out there anyway.Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Vi wrote:Query @elvis_knits. Differentiate mykonian as wrong versus mykonian as scum.
It might not seem like it, but I am trying to be generous and assume that some people advocating scummy strategy are just wrong.
That does not explain why Myko is consistently mis-characterizing me as "passive" and "holding back." I mean, ask yourself, do you think he could honestly think that?
Or why he is stomping on my suspicion on Ludi and Amrun without saying he thinks they're town or why he disagrees with me.
Or why he questions my treatment of Ludi (is that a slip?) while he does the same thing.
Or why he considered four votes on him a wagon. I guess technically it is, but it seems kind of like... not that huge a deal.
To be completely as devil's advocate as I can be, I would have to say Myko might be town if he was 1)wrong and reckless in his first suggestion to spring a duel; and 2)being arrogant and obnoxious in his reactions to me. I think it's more likely he's scum.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Juls wrote:
ek
Post 31: I do not like the suggestion that two scum duel each other because it leaves open the possibility of empowering scum.
It was never my intention to empower a scummy player. I think my posts have been pretty clear about trying to limit scum control of duels. TBH, it will probably happen at some point though, maybe even as a result of your plan for a townie to empower someone they think is town. And I think that is unavoidable and I'm not too scared of it. We try not to empower scum, but if we do I tend to think we have a better chance at catching them. That's why I said that everyone who is empowered needs to be held accountable.
Juls wrote:
Post 65: Says "It has been my experience that in games like this where there are strategies that CLEARLY benefit scum, and some people push these strategies, THEY ARE SCUM.", but I could use this argument against you because post 31 is not exactly a pro-town suggestion.
You're really twisting my words if you're saying I was trying to suggest strategies that empower scum. Do you really think that's what I was trying to do?
Juls wrote:
Post 204: Minor, but I don't like that ek refers to town as "you" here instead of "we".
The post was a direct response to reaper. The "you" was reaper.Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Dislike this turn of events:
Max names Juls as one of his top suspects for not scumhunting
Juls answers without scumhunting
Max says he likes her answer and votes rayfrostTalk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Also dislike Bastard saying toasty and Iecerint are in scum position on Magister's wagon. First of all, they are two and three on the wagon, which seems early to me for traditional scum placement. Second on a wagon doesn't seem that opportunistic to me. I also feel like you have to assume Magister is town to be looking for the scum on that wagon already. And I really don't think Magister's done anything for anyone to feel comfortable assuming Magister is town.
I also dislike Bastard's refusal to vote and his poo-pooing of "quick" wagons. How are we supposed to play without voting? How are we supposed to play without pressuring and wagonning? (I've seen these stances as common newbie mistakes though... is this guy really that new? Does anyone know?)
I also dislike Magister coming in and voting Iecerint.
I guess I just find it odd for Bastard to be subtly defending Magister and suggesting iecerint is scum on his wagon and then Magister to pick up that seed and vote iecerint.Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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I'm worried that some/all of the problem between Greyice and AGM is carryover of bad feelings from a previous game. I'd like it if they both tried to put the other game away and look at this one like an island, see if that changes anything.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Juls wrote:ek wrote:It was never my intention to empower a scummy player. I think my posts have been pretty clear about trying to limit scum control of duels. TBH, it will probably happen at some point though, maybe even as a result of your plan for a townie to empower someone they think is town. And I think that is unavoidable and I'm not too scared of it. We try not to empower scum, but if we do I tend to think we have a better chance at catching them. That's why I said that everyone who is empowered needs to be held accountable.
Your initial suggestion was to have the TWO most scummy players duel. Thereby killing one scum andempowering the other. So if player A and B are scummy players, A dies, B gets an ability and we will likely lynch B tomorrow cause, he is still scummy. Even if you do empower town, you are not going to lose your scummy read on them. So I don't like the strategy. I would have taken it at face value until you said people who propose plans that benefit scum are scummy. Which is EXACTLY what you did.
The intent was not to try to empower scum. It was more to give us a chance to choose between lynching two scummy people. Realistically, I think that if we put two scummy people up for duel, they're probably not actually both scum. I was hoping we'd kill the scum, not empower the scum.
I admit that I was not thinking about it as thoroughly as I should have. I think it should be clear though that I was coming from a good place and trying to benefit the town.
I can explain more what I was thinking. I also thought that if you take the two scummiest people for a duel, they will claim and then you decide if you want to empower one of them based on their role. Let's say their claim is convincing or you're not sure if they're faking or not, but they might be legit. You can empower them and either bump up a PR if they're being truthful, or force them into faking results and probably being caught much easier if they're scum. My thinking was if a scum ends up being empowered (even though we obviously don't WANT this) it actually gives us a better chance of catching them.
SO, this is totally not the way you were looking at duels. You were thinking we agree on who to lynch and then duel them to empower someone we think is town. I wasn't thinking that way.
Juls wrote:
ek wrote:You're really twisting my words if you're saying I was trying to suggest strategies that empower scum. Do you really think that's what I was trying to do?
This is the game of mafia where you are guilty until proven innocent.
There's a lot more subtlety than that and you know it.
Juls wrote:
ek wrote:The post was a direct response to reaper. The "you" was reaper.
Ah but you were referring to him as town-reaper. That town-reaper would have trouble winning the game. If you are town, why would you not say "we". As I said, it was minor, but noted.
You're right, I was thinking about reaper as town, and actually I was thinking about myself as being dead by that point if people are so against me and my POV. Note away though, I guess.Talk nerdy to me.
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Unvote Myko; vote Amrun
Amrun's contributions this game consists of:
-"joke" about the scumQT against bastard
-vote DK (while not commenting on any larger issues)
-vote Magister wagon (after multiple people pressure her to start scumhunting)
-string of vague comments about vague meta feelings
I see very few opinions on players (Maybe 5/20 and all these are vague).
I see no comments about game mechanic. Staying completely out of all attempts to strategize for town or get into any fights about strategy.
I have seen no scumhunting.
Please join me in this wagon whether or not you have hated me thus far in the game or not. Amrun needs your votes.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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AlmasterGM wrote:In other news, elvis_knits switches suspects completely and begs for allies after getting pwnzored by mykionian. Scumtastic.
I'm trying to keep an open mind. Myko can't be the only scum.
I don't really care about allies. I care about getting votes on Amrun.Talk nerdy to me.
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Amrun wrote:P-edit: who pressured me to start scumhunting, elvis? P sure nobody did. And I stated why I got on the wagon and then why I got off. If you think I'm being opportunistic, how do you explain my vote on Deity Kabuto, who has no other votes? You're looking far more opportunistic than me atm.
Pretty sure I have been mentioning you since early game and others too (I can go look it up later, off the top of my head, Juls and Vi made comments about you). I said how I didn't like your DK vote and next post you vote Magister.
And I have never said your vote on DK was opportunistic. I thought it was you trying to fly-under-the-radar. I still think that's what it is. You're not commenting on any of the larger issues, but voting somebody nobody cares about and staying out of the heavy mud.
And now I am suddenly your number one suspect after I vote you.Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Amrun,
Please comment on the game mechanic and how you feel it should be used. Should we duel once today, twice? Who should be in those duels? Give more concrete opinions on people. Don't let meta be your primary (I'm okay with secondary, but not primary and sole reasoning).
xoxo,
ElvisTalk nerdy to me.
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AlmasterGM wrote:elvis_knits wrote:I'm trying to keep an open mind. Myko can't be the only scum.
Agreed, but you aren't just pointing out other scumtells and generating a list of scum. You specifically appeal to people to forge a new wagon on someone else, which is basically saying, "Now stop looking there...and look over here!"
I'm just being honest that it is my intention to wagon people who are scummy and apply pressure to solidify reads. And I can't really wagon alone. Wagonning is a group activity.
Is your problem that you think I am trying to distract people from another wagon? Which one?Talk nerdy to me.
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Amrun wrote:I have recently been re-thinking theory and I'm not sure it's wise to share townreads, or at least details on why someone is town, unless they come under pressure, particularly in the beginnings of large games.
In the middle/end, it becomes imperative, but I think it's better to observe on the first day and question scumspects.
Or I'm trying that out, in the very least.
Why are you changing your play strategy about sharing town reads in a game specifically designed to encourage and reward town reads?Talk nerdy to me.
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OK, so you don't like myko or amrun as scum, so you don't like me. Do you think my reasons are scummy or just wrong?
On the Ludi topic, I haven't liked him since the beginning even though I am still a bit confused about the flavor aspect. Let's go through this as if I am stupid.
Is this right:
Ludi assumed two three-man scum teams.
My question is: Do you think that scum would be told about another scum team? I haven't played in a while, and I think they more often would not be told, but maybe? I'm just asking to be sure it's even a possibility.Talk nerdy to me.
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mykonian wrote:@Gamma: I wouldn't mind if you pulled the trigger now and dueled someone. It gives us time to analyse it, and we aren't advancing that fast anymore anyway.
Yeah, let's kill someone, anyone, to liven things up.
HOW CAN PEOPLE THINK YOU ARE TOWN?Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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My negative feelings against Myko and to some extent (AGM), has to do with my belief that scum will try to exploit this mechanic to their advantage. I remember two games in particular that have great bearing on my belief.
One was Dollhouse mini, (I linked before, but here it is again http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... =dollhouse), where each day we lynched someone and could imprint them (AKA empower). The whole game hinged on scum finding ways to imprint/empower each other and prevent town from imprint/empower. You will see I took a similar strategy in that game and met with lots of opposition and bitching and moaning (some from scum, some from town). I did find scum on page one though because Deathnote wanted to "imprint everyone because it's fun playing with moar powerzlulz." You can see this play out in the first few pages even if you don't want to read too much.
The other game I am thinking of is Dynamite mafia (http://www.mafiascum.net/archive/viewtopic.php?t=8119). I think it was about this many players, where one player blew another player up each day (similar to this double-death duel). I was scum in that game, in a 3-man scum team. Only 3 scum in a large game because, as anticipated, town wasted several days blowing each other indiscriminately without majority consent, without discussion.
So I see this game as a combo of those two games that I played in. Scum want to be empowered, maybe even need to be empowered. But failing that they want town to be as reckless and as stupid as possible and go around killing each other. My play since the beginning of this game has been to prevent scum from getting away with this and try to discourage mistaken town from going along with it.Talk nerdy to me.
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Gammagooey wrote:Otherwise I'm just gonna choose whichever I think is best out of the wagons. (this is currently elvis.)
My "wagon" has two votes, one of which is your own.Talk nerdy to me.
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AlmasterGM wrote:elvis_knits wrote:Actually, NOBODY SHOULD DUEL ANYBODY UNLESS THE MAJORITY OF US AGREE TO IT.
No. SPYREX made this game and it was obviously meant to be played SPYREX style. The problem with the "majority of us" is that scum are in the majority, and can thus influence the decision.
I propose: if you are OBVTOWN, you are permitted to duel and/or order other people to duel. If you are NOT OBVTOWN, you are not permitted to start duels and/or order other people to duel. OBVTOWN people will form an alliance and work together to find scumz.
First of all... the argument that majority should not rule because scum are in the majority of us so they can influence the decision is... horrible. The whole point of this game is we don't know who the scum are, so we can't really cut them out of the process, and also letting everyone talk and participate is how we figure out who the scum are.
Second, it is a slippery slope to start giving some people more control than others. What happens if you have a good scum who people consider OBVTOWN? Then you have scum in total control of the duels, empowering themselves and/or their buddies, AND ordering townies to duel! And even if you correctly decide who a few OBVTOWN, town can be just wrong. I think the more input you have into things the better. Town are better together than apart.Talk nerdy to me.
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^^^ Yeah, also three posts ago I brought up your scummy comments again, so you better revote me.Last edited by SpyreX on Thu May 26, 2011 7:19 am, edited 1 time in total.Talk nerdy to me.
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Ok so I have been trying to let my scumlist breathe for a few days and see if it changes anything. I decided to try to include everyone in a scumspectrum. I've tried to give explanation on stuff I felt needed it. But some stuff I've probably beat to death at this point. Anyway, I will clarify more as needed.
Scum
Amrun
Magister
AGM
Myko
Toasty I was blinded by buddying
Vi
Viputer - reads very different from mine, no help with strategy (and shouldn't Vi be able to help since it is a very strategic player?)
Low-volume posters and/or VI-ish(don't feel particularly scummy about them, but having trouble reading)
Katsuki - have virtually no memory of this person
DK
GreyIce - I've been hoping for something that doesn't have to do with hating AGM from a previous game
C-worl - how Vi has a read on this guy, I have no idea
Neutral, slight town
Gamma
Bastard
RF
DUM
Maxous (keeping note of weird interaction between Max and Juls though Posts 209-220; my suspicion explained Post 270)
Juls
Town
Inhim
RedCoyote
IecerintTalk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Myko,
You know, you might turn this into just another reason to say I'm scum, but FWIW, I did decide that your quote about wanting to duel was not as horrible as I originally thought it was. (AGM much worse, actually.) It seems like maybe you intended to convince the town before dueling. Which was something that escaped me at first. And then I went after you like a rabid dog because... that's what I do.
If I was in the wrong, I am open to be proven so. I can't say I've seen much that makes me feel really good about you though. I haven't seen a lot from you except for the "Furthermore, I am of the opinion that Elvis_knits must be lynched" broken record crap. I have tried to look at everyone, and I don't feel like you've been trying very hard. Obviously, you may not care, and this may just give you more arguments against me, but I felt I had to say it because it's the truth. Say what you will about it. Vote me forever if you want.Talk nerdy to me.
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inHimshallibe wrote:myko raises a good point about Ray (and possibly Toasty) being on the DUM wagon. Maxous and Bastard Bros are fine, though.
I don't get the Dum wagon, and yeah I find it weird that Toasty followed onto it. Seems mostly like he didn't like DUM calling him scum.Talk nerdy to me.
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Amrun is laying low, hanging her vote on DK even though that's not happening.
Amrun, if you had to vote somebody else who had a chance of dying today, who would it be? And if it's me, can you tell me who your third choice is?Talk nerdy to me.
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Myko, the makeup sex is going to be awesome.
...
Ok, so I say we kill Amrun, Magister, or Toasty.
Amrun has not come through for me. Has not stepped up her game, has not come up with more complete opinions on people. Is still parking her vote on DK and hoping we forget about her. Has not answered this post:
elvis_knits wrote:Amrun wrote:I have recently been re-thinking theory and I'm not sure it's wise to share townreads, or at least details on why someone is town, unless they come under pressure, particularly in the beginnings of large games.
In the middle/end, it becomes imperative, but I think it's better to observe on the first day and question scumspects.
Or I'm trying that out, in the very least.
Why are you changing your play strategy about sharing town reads in a game specifically designed to encourage and reward town reads?Talk nerdy to me.
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Can we get a consensus on who must go into the duel?
I prefer Amrun. ML or Toasty almost as good. Not feeling DUM.
I think the only possible people should be:
Amrun
ML
Toasty
DUM
(maybe me, if there is current support people should speak up)
The above list is people who currently have a wagon on them, or had a wagon on them at some point, which I think qualifies them to be considered for duel. I'd like everybody to rank these 4/5 in order they would prefer. Or if they strongly prefer a write-in candidate, say that, but we should really try to narrow down this field, IMO.
My list is:
1)Amrun
2)ML
3Toast
4)DUM
5)lovable meLast edited by SpyreX on Fri May 27, 2011 6:03 am, edited 1 time in total.Talk nerdy to me.
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AlmasterGM wrote:List of lynch candidates for today (in order of preference);
1) Iecrint
2) elvis_knits
3) ToastyToast
4) Magister Ludi
Also, C-Worl.
Where is DUM on that list?Talk nerdy to me.
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DeityKabuto wrote:You are on your own scum list, that is scummy how I see it.
I'm not on my own scum list, silly.
That's the list of possible duel candidates. I included myself in the possible duel candidates based on who had gotten a wagon on them today. I had a wagon, so I went on the list. I listed myself as my least favorable option to duel.Talk nerdy to me.
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ToastyToast wrote:
1)Elvis, since when is agreeing with someone's thought process buddying? You seem to think I'm buddying you. I'm not, your not even on my town list.
I'm referring to how you said you agreed with my plan to rule duels by majority, while also giving caveats that if a person feels sure they found scum they can duel. Which actually means you didn't agree with me. Saying you agree with me AND AGM seemed to be an attempt to please us both, but it's not really possible to agree with us both, since one makes the other impossible.Talk nerdy to me.
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Okay, I don't have much time right now, but I feel I should post something before this game gets away from me. I should have some more time tonight to get better caught up and figure stuff out better. For now, I've kind of skimmed stuff.
OK RedCoyote was scum, toasty was town. Wasn't RC's death first posted to look like a third party? Now it looks generically scum. Is there any consensus on which we think he is? I'm only asking because I haven't spent enough time to look over carefully and I thought maybe someone could cut through all that for me. If RC was a third party I would find it more likely that his suspicions were honest, since I think you still try to scumhunt as a third party (not that he's right about all of them, but more that he was trying to be right). If he was mafia then I would be looking for different motivations and distrust his suspicions more.
I also think it's really important to look at the other major wagons yesterday and when/how they popped up in relation to toastytoast. I'm still wondering about amrun and ML as I think that toasty might have distracted from them. I'm also much more suspicious of inHim because I think he was pushing toasty most of the day. Inhim was also main pusher of DUM, so like if inHim's scum I would expect DUM to be town.
The whole thing about DK doing the pierce thing seems like he was just f'ing around, and I'm surprised people are all like "WHAT DOES IT MEAN??" Obv nothing.
UH. More coherent thoughts coming later, but that's what I'm thinking about ATM.Talk nerdy to me.
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Wagon analysis!
Major movements in the game were as follows:
1) Myko wagon (EK, DK, CSL, Cworl)
2) Magister Ludi wagon (RayFrost,ToastyToast, Iecerint, Katsuki, Vi, Amrun, CSL )
3) Amrun wagon (DietyKabuto, elvis_knits, GreyICE,RedCoyote, Vi)
4) DUM wagon (Drunken Unicorn Master - 5 - RayFrost, InHimshallibe, Maxous,ToastyToast, Bastard Bros)
5)Toastywagon (Katsuki, Gammagooey, AlmasterGM,RedCoyote, Amrun, Drunken Unicorn Master, Magister Ludi)
Reason behind myko wagon was me going rabid dog.
Reason behind ML wagon was the "slip"
Reason behind Amrun wagon (subpar votes, vague reasoning, resistance to getting in the mud)
Reason behind DUM wagon (not really sure? inHim major pusher, thought DUM was scummy for having to reread when it looked as if he was reading along)
Reason behind Toasty wagon (Contradicted himself, wanting to have it both ways, some really bad attacks on kats dum and vi)
Important stuff to note:
1)When Amrun wagon got to 5, Dum wagon grew to five as a counter wagon.This is VERY interesting to me because inhim was the major fuel on the DUM wagon, and inhim had previously voted Amrun early, so why wouldn't he be on the Amrun wagon? Instead he starts a counter wagon.This is his stated reason for DUM:
inhim wrote:Also, it was pretty clear RC was paying attention to the thread already, but he's now claiming he's going to read it like he hasn't touched the material. Forced imo.
2)I still don't get the DUM wagon.
3)I believe toasty wagon happened because we were trying to find a compromise, and also his attacks on Vi, dum and the kats fighting all looked so bad. I'm not sure I blame anyone necessarily, inhim did bring up toasty buddying me early, and redcoyote also votes toast early. kats also inflamed the toasty death, but I'm not sure I really blame him.
4)Mykonian still doing jackshit in this game. Sorry to keep going back to him, but really. The only thing he's done all day is vote me for being "passive" while I vote and analyze and scumhunt, while he himself is the one being extremely passive this game.
5)I notice that RedCoyote's first wallpost had a vote for maxous, and then an unvote and vote for toasty in the same post! I always find this suspicious when people vote somebody and then unvote in the same post. What is the point of that? Smells scumbuddy-ish to me, if we think RC was mafia? I'm still confused about his alignment, if it was mafia or third party. HELP ME, people who understand this flavor.
Overall, for his early push of toast, and his suspicious behavior regarding Amrun and then push of DUM wagon;
vote inhim
Note: if Inhim is scum, Amrun very likely buddy.
Supporting VC's:
page 5 vc wrote:Official Vote Count
Players needed to lynch: 11
Amrun - 2 - Juls, Katsuki - (L-9)
DietyKabuto - 1 - Amrun - (L-10)
elvis_knits - 2 - Gammagooey, AlmasterGM - (L-9)
GreyICE - 1 -ToastyToast- (L-10)
Magister Ludi - 1 - RayFrost - (L-10)
Maxous - 1 - Vi - (L-10)
mykonian - 4 - elvis_knits, CSL, DietyKabuto, C-Worl - (L-7)
RayFrost - 1 - Magister Ludi - (L-10)
Vi - 1 - GreyICE - (L-10)
Players not voting: Bastard Bros, Iecerint, InHimshallibe, Maxous, mykonian,RedCoyote
page 7 vc wrote:Official Vote Count
Players needed to lynch: 11
Amrun - 1 - Juls - (L-10)
DietyKabuto - 1 - Amrun - (L-10)
elvis_knits - 2 - Gammagooey, mykonian - (L-9)
Magister Ludi - 4 - RayFrost,ToastyToast, Iecerint, Katsuki - (L-7)
Maxous - 1 - Vi - (L-10)
mykonian - 4 - elvis_knits, CSL, DietyKabuto, C-Worl - (L-7)
RayFrost - 1 - Magister Ludi - (L-10)
ToastyToast- 2 - AlmasterGM,RedCoyote- (L-9)
Vi - 1 - GreyICE - (L-10)
Players not voting: Bastard Bros, InHimshallibe, Maxous
page 10 vc wrote:Official Vote Count
Players needed to lynch: 11
AlmasterGM - 2 - GreyICE, C-Worl - (L-9)
Amrun - 1 - Juls - (L-10)
CSL - 1 - InHimshallibe - (L-10)
elvis_knits - 2 - Gammagooey, mykonian - (L-9)
Magister Ludi - 7 - RayFrost,ToastyToast, Iecerint, Katsuki, Vi, Amrun, CSL - (L-4)
mykonian - 2 - elvis_knits, DietyKabuto - (L-9)
RayFrost - 2 - Magister Ludi, Maxous - (L-9)
ToastyToast- 2 - AlmasterGM,RedCoyote- (L-9)
Players not voting: Bastard Bros
Page 17 vc wrote:Official Vote Count
Players needed to lynch: 11
Amrun - 5 - DietyKabuto, elvis_knits, GreyICE,RedCoyote, Vi - (L-6)
DietyKabuto - 1 - Amrun - (L-10)
Drunken Unicorn Master - 2 - RayFrost, InHimshallibe - (L-9)
elvis_knits - 2 - Gammagooey, mykonian - (L-9)
GreyICE - 2 - Juls, C-Worl - (L-9)
Iecerint - 1 - Magister Ludi - (L-10)
Magister Ludi - 4 -ToastyToast, Iecerint, Katsuki, Drunken Unicorn Master - (L-7)
RayFrost - 1 - Maxous - (L-10)
ToastyToast- 1 - AlmasterGM - (L-10)
Players not voting: Bastard Bros
page 19 VC wrote:Official Vote Count
Players needed to lynch: 11
Amrun - 5 - DietyKabuto, elvis_knits, GreyICE,RedCoyote, Vi - (L-6)
DietyKabuto - 1 - Amrun - (L-10)
Drunken Unicorn Master - 5 - RayFrost, InHimshallibe, Maxous,ToastyToast, Bastard Bros - (L-6)
elvis_knits - 2 - Gammagooey, mykonian - (L-9)
GreyICE - 2 - Juls, C-Worl - (L-9)
Iecerint - 1 - Magister Ludi - (L-10)
Magister Ludi - 2 - Iecerint, Drunken Unicorn Master - (L-9)
ToastyToast- 2 - AlmasterGM, Katsuki - (L-9)
Players not voting: None
VC page 25 wrote:Official Vote Count
Players needed to lynch: 11
Amrun - 2 - elvis_knits, GreyICE - (L-9)
Drunken Unicorn Master - 4 - InHimshallibe, Maxous,ToastyToast, Bastard Bros - (L-7)
GreyICE - 1 - C-Worl - (L-10)
Iecerint - 1 - RayFrost - (L-10)
InHimshallibe - 1 - Vi - (L-10)
Katsuki - 2 - Juls, DietyKabuto - (L-9)
Magister Ludi - 1 - Iecerint - (L-10)
ToastyToast- 7 - Katsuki, Gammagooey, AlmasterGM,RedCoyote, Amrun, Drunken Unicorn Master, Magister Ludi - (L-4)
Players not voting: mykonianTalk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Myko, I didn't know what you were talking about with "Don't do this inhim" when you first disliked him. I think I gave inhim more of a pass because he seemed to want you and me to stop fighting. I took that as slightly pro-town to want to resolve a fight rather than inflame. That's kind of the same reason I felt good about redcoyote.
I think you're right that inhim is going after logic contradictions that are not necessarily scummy. My biggest problem with him is that his reason for voting DUM was that "Dum says he has to reread and he's obviously been reading--zomg liar." I mean... so what is DUM has been following along? Maybe he hadn't been reading as thoroughly as he wanted and wants a reread? I just don't get why DUM doing a reread is scummy. Also it distracted from amrun wagon.Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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DeityKabuto wrote:elvis_knits, I would like to see either you or VI duel Inhim.
I don't mind dueling inhim. Not to sound like a broken record, but if that's what the majority think is best, I'm fine with it.
Also, are you trying to empower me or kill me?Last edited by SpyreX on Mon May 30, 2011 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Myko, I think half the people haven't commented yet about the second duel... so yeah it was premature.
I'm getting more and more on your side, except for you rushing.Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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Vi wrote:
mykonian 822... Insufficient certainty for simple Y/N answer. Very large red flag thrown by Maxous in previous 72 hours. Extermination of Maxous not disallowed, but not priority.
Also, I'm not sure if my point about a possible RedCoyote-Maxous tie got lost in the wall. But RC's first wall post he votes and unvotes maxous in the same post then votes someone else (I think toasty). So the maxous vote was basically meaningless. Looks like scumbuddy distancing to me.Talk nerdy to me.
"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." -Joseph Campbell-
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elvis_knits Queen of Rock'n'Purl
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