Team Mafia 2018: Game 3 - Random GIFs Game Over

[Archwing]

VOTE: Deas

Ffs Deas is scum.
Guys I'm a vt, I didn't go anywhere last night.

[Archwing]

You seriously think me, the potential counter wagon to radja, everyone's secondary lynch target yesterday, would make the night kill?

[Archwing]

Deas I'm probably the worst target to fake track. That was a really bad scum slip. If I'm a scum partner with anyone else here, they're making the kill over me 100% of the time.

[Bins]

:$

THIS GAME BALANCE IS SO WACK

[Archwing]

Yeah how is fruit vendor and tracker balanced.
Wtf

[Bins]

I’m claiming now. This is to get assistance from the other town members in regards to balance in this 1v1.

I’m a Doctor. I never protected anyone correctly (SORRY). I crumbed this in on Day 1 638 - the first letter of each sentence spells out “Artz” which is doctor in German. I also heavily crumbed my protects after almost EVERY flip in the game and crumbed Doc a little more later on especially during the claim (hopefully if you reread this is obvious).

My protects were: Bulba (hence why I was like WHY DID BULBA NOT DIE), Chesskid (Which I INITIALLY HAD AS T-BONE AND SWITCHED LAST MINUTE, WHICH is why I was like “IM SO SORRY TBONE” and the reason I protected Chess was I thought if his reads were right he would die), next I protected Keychain (which is why I said “Why hasn’t Keychain died yet?”), finally last night I protected DV (very obviously why, even if I wasn’t sure of the claim).

THIS IS ALSO WHY I WANTED A MASSCLAIM THE DAY BEFORE LYLO. So I could get a good protect target (claims are useless to me in LYLO).

Anyways, I’m interested in this balance. Because Implosion still thinks Doc-Tracker+Backup-Fruit Vendor (essentially a neutral role) is balanced. Which is why I still believed DV’s claim. But now I have no idea.

Also, yell at me for the Radja lynch after.

[Bins]

Yes,
I’m aware the scumteam might be DV+Bulba and I’m sorry.

[Bins]

*Implosion thinks it’s not balanced.


I’m going to do a potential teams list later.
If Dunker is scum it’s taking me to my grave.

[Archwing]

Bins.

Any world where Deas isn't scum to you?

[Archwing]

Ughhhhh

[Archwing]

Deas/bulba for the win?

[Bins]

Bins.

Any world where Deas isn't scum to you?

Well, yeah.

Right now, the possible teams are:

{Archwing or DV}, {Bulba or Dunker}

No idea.

[Bulbazak]

Gun to my head, bulba and radja.

I'm worried that there's a mafia roleblocker or something. I mean, fruit vendor, tracker, backup tracker... I could maybe see it. In that csse they block Deas, nk someone else and obviously hard push deas as a fake claim for the mislynch win.

This looks really bad on a reread. I also didn't like Arch's insistence that the scum team was comprised of 3 goons, but I guess if you were only looking at 3 PRs, I could kinda see it. Okay, seeing if I missed anything.

[Bulbazak]

You seriously think me, the potential counter wagon to radja, everyone's secondary lynch target yesterday, would make the night kill?

After having already been tracked once? Yeah. The likelihood of being tracked again is smaller, and the chance your buddy gets tracked is higher. I've tracked the same person twice in a row before, but it's super rare, even if you are heavy duty scumreading the person. But still...

@DV: Why did you track Arch again?

Bins claim makes sense. Mastina was going on about setup not making sense and said that someone was lying. She did setup spec after T-Bone and kept on landing on 4 PRs, though she didn't think any of them would be too strong. I still don't like Backup Tracker because of the "Follow the Cop" like element it suggests that the game would have. And that's something I think Smith would not include. I mean, he essentially has a hate boner for cops and doesn't like hard guilties. However, evidence does show that he

really

likes the tracker role. And when I looked over some of his modding thoughts, it seems he does like to overpower town to compensate for higher scum win rates. Something about if town can't win in those conditions, then they deserve to lose. I'll see if I can track down the quote. With day talk in the mix, I could potentially see him including a more powerful town PR set. Idk. I need to talk to mastina about this.

[Bulbazak]

Couldn't find the quote I was looking for. I swear it's in that thread, but I can't really find it. If you can, please post. But Smith does show a tendency towards thinking larger town power is balanced. The thread's worth it to look over, and I'm sure someone will get more out of it than me. Regardless, this is worth a look:

TLDR:

1) Non-vanilla roles seem to be generally over-valued, especially roles that don't actually do much of anything useful (town neighbor, bodyguard, 1-shot whatever).

2) 3 goon setups in particular seem to tend to attract nowhere near enough town power needed to make games tossups. One decent power (tracker, JK, watcher, doctor, vig - obviously some of these are better than others) and two mediocre powers (bodyguard, hider, vengeful, 1-shot anything) is simply not enough. Ditto one good power and just ONE mediocre power (like just a night 1 doc in 1701). Even against an all-goon team, you probably need TWO good powers out of 3-4 overall power roles in order to achieve balance.

3) If the goal is to have a balanced win rate in 10v3 mini normals, then towns need to keep getting boosted even beyond the current norms, especially when it comes to what level of power to apply against all goon teams or how heavily to value five town PR's solely for the sake of HAVING five town PR's.

[Archwing]

This is a closed setup. The setup has been reviewed for normalcy (but NOT through the standard NRG process). Normal game rules can be found here.
Please note that this game has been balanced around the expected level of play for this event. This may or may not be different than the balance in a standard normal game of this size.

this is not a standard normal game though. this has taken into consideration it's team mafia.

assuming daychat, help from other eyes, etc... i definitely buy:
doc + tracker + fruit + 9vts vs 3 mafia. probably goons, maybe 1 weak pr.

[Bulbazak]

But the mod designed the setup, so his thoughts on what is balanced need to be considered. 4 PRs feels about right for a game this size where scum have day talk. And that's before we consider what's on the scum side of things.
But "game has been balanced around the expected level of play for this event" makes backup tracker more dicey, as that would suggest a setup that could fall into a potential follow the cop type scenario. It could depend on if scum have any PRs or not, and what they are.

[Archwing]

why isn’t keychain dying
keychain why aren’t u dying

because scum have no hearts and refuse to have mercy on me ;-;
or because my reads are shit.

Reads from the three NKed players

A50

:

Spoiler: Relevant quotes

A50, am I on a shitty train of thought with Bins/LLD/Radja idea?

Nope. So far it still makes perfect sense for the trio to be scum together, and I didn't want to affect your reads before, but I'm glad you came around on Elena.

Other than your 3, I'm not sure about CDB, Aeronaut, T-bone & CK (but T-bone & CK are like last resorts. Like, if we mislynch and then get a clear on another one of the main suspects.. maybe then).

Oh, and Dunker. I'm not 100% on him either. I know he can do better than this, but I don't explicitly SR him either.

My strongest SR remains Bins though, and she's not even trying. Like, I would expect Town!Bins to be overly noisy, and especially while we are waiting for Titus/Fitz to catch up, so we have all the time for her to Town!case herself or show some genuine Scumhunting, but she seems to have basically given up.

After careful consideration, Bins is unlikely to be Scum in this game. Still possible, but unlikely.

@Math: If Titus ain't scum HERE, then I'm calling Fitz/Chesskid/Elena for the scum team in this game.

As best I can tell, his scumreads who are still alive were Radja, DeasVail and Bins.

T-Bone

:

Spoiler:

Could try chesskid or Titus or....sigh Radja

vote:Radja

It looks like his viable lynches were chess and Radja.

Mina

:

Spoiler:

Dunkerdoodles, when did I become locktown?

I've been feeling good about Archwing being town after rereading the early game today. Aaaaaand I've been feeling like Bulbazak's paranoia around deadline is also very town!

And now I'm also feeling a lot better about Dunkerdoodles, so {xyzzy, DV, Bins} may actually be my pool. I'll need to do lots of rereading and ISOing past games tomorrow, though.

DV and Bins were her most recent pool.


From this, I think I'd like to lynch in {DV, Radja, Bins} today, with that being my order of preference, with the assumption that at least one of the NKs was made because of someone having good reads.

this is a good post. I really think this plays a part as to why keychain got NK'd (by deas).

also, key was pretty inactive EoD, so people were more-or-less happy with the game state by killing key, while keeping in mind they did not want key's reads to carry over into LyLo.

[Archwing]

furthermore, town!dunker is kept in the game because i'm in his lynch pool, even though NKing him would not affect game state as much.

[Bulbazak]

Oops, my bad. Here's where I'm at:

Dunkers still town partly because I think Boon's influence would be more visible if he were scum, and I think I trust Elena's final read on him.
Bulba strikes me as town.
Still townreading Radja :/
Ugh maybe Bins is actually scum, I can't remember why I was townreading her and moreover I can't remember why she's townreading me so solidly at this point in the game.
The only reason I'm really townreading Archwing is the sync up with UCV, but I did read 3841 and the consistencies are not as strong as they first appeared. Potentially Arch could have gotten them from a read through UCV's ISO and non-Creature teammates.
DV claimed PR so he can be sorted out later, doesn't lock him as town (my ability to detect real/fake claims based on setup spec is like nil) but if he is we'll see if scum are willing to give him a night to track.

Final reads from Key. Probably worth going over more than something from the start of the day.

[Archwing]

okay but bulba, if you're town, just look FMPOV for a minute

key points out 2/3 of night kills have scum!DV (or DV's slot)
key puts DV in a lynch pool.

and theennn, in your last post you just quoted, key was fine leaving DV for last day phase, BUT DOESN'T LOCK HIM AS TOWN!
I really think with Bins' claim here, key would have death tunneled DV, and DV couldn't 1v1 key as well as me.

[Archwing]

@bins

just wanna be 100% clear.

if we successfully lynch scum today, you can't heal yourself right?
which confirms you as tonights NK?

[Archwing]

actually, i dunno. maybe don't answer that? i dunno how much info you wanna give to scum right now

[Bulbazak]

But that's assuming that DV knew what Bins was. FMPOV one of you is scum with Dunker. I'm just trying to figure out which one. And I don't want to ramble right now, because I'm waiting for certain responses both in here and in my team PT in order to get a better handling. Right now it's evidence of you as scum vs. balance issues. And I'm like:

[Dunkerdoodles]

bins wtfffffff