Mafia 75: Return of the Mafia! TOWN WINS (really late)

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

umm why are you voting for Whome, when we have confirmed scum already? 0.o

A bit over-eager? lol

BM

We have confirmed scum? I don't see RC as confirmed scum. What play does the scum have claiming cult on a claimed miller? We're not going to lynch based on that, so why, as scum, is he more likely to do something that doesn't make sense than as town?

[Battle Mage]

because he's done the exact same thing before as scum. -.-

[curiouskarmadog]

because he's done the exact same thing before as scum. -.-

link?

[armlx]

CKD, ongoing. Thats why I tried not to say anything.

[curiouskarmadog]

ahh, that is what you two were talking about before...well I can meta it then.

[Matt_S]

I'm really starting to dislike Nemesis's "I saved the vig" defense.

[dahill1]

i'm kind of confused again..why are people hesitant to believe RC would be lying?
is it because of just general scumminess or something else?

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I am hesitant to believe RC would be lying because I don't see the benefit as scum of doing so, except for possibly the WIFOM benefits of having done something scum have no reason to do. I'm not clearing him for it, but I have no good reason to do so (and I don't view the meta as good enough, I can think of at least one likely and other less likely scenarios in which he's still telling the truth.)

[armlx]

He has the out of saying there is a cult, the out of BM being a miller, etc.

He has done this before.

[Rosso Carne]

the mod just changed his mind.

i now know that BM would show up guilty no matter what.

unvote

and can he please be vigged tonight. I'm tired of these exchanges with nemesis.

[curiouskarmadog]

I dont believe your claim. why wouldnt you find out before targetting the miller if it would effect your result?

confirm vote Rosso Carne

[WhoMe?]

the mod just changed his mind.

i now know that BM would show up guilty no matter what.

unvote

and can he please be vigged tonight. I'm tired of these exchanges with nemesis.

oh dear. you knw that BM will show up guilty no matter what do you? how? surely the mod didn't say that? Do you mean a miller would show up guilty no matter what?

Even if you were told by the mod that BM would show up guilty no matter what, this would confirm him as a miller, so why would we want him dead?

my vote stays on you

[Battle Mage]

the mod just changed his mind.

i now know that BM would show up guilty no matter what.

unvote

and can he please be vigged tonight. I'm tired of these exchanges with nemesis.

Unvote

Did Jordan say why he changed his mind?

There's something i want to look into. I'll be back in a sec.

BM

[Battle Mage]

bah im torn. Armlx, check the time stamps of the two games starting. only

1 day

separating them.

Much as id like to think that we just caught Rosso in the most retarded play ever as scum, i can actually see a case for him as town, on the grounds that his claim in THAT GAME was inspired by the role he recieved at a similar time, in this game. Cult Cop isnt a role ive ever actually seen outside of IRC, but it is potentially something Jordan could come up with. Rosso's subsequent posts also fit what i would expect of an exchange between him and the Mod.

Of course, much as my gut tells me he might just be telling the truth, i cant help thinking that he is a total waste of space. I mean, his role is useless, and he's basically vanilla to us, and even if he DID have a useful role, can we expect him to do anything even the slightest bit beneficial for us? Probably not.

Even now, hes pushing non-logic in order to force a fellow weak power role to the grave. I'd not be sorry to see him die, and id hate for him to be such transparent scum and we talk himself out of lynching him because of WIFOM. But, i'm no longer sure hes scum, and if he isnt, we need somewhere else to go, either with our Vig, or for subsequent lynches.

In light of this, i want to hear what you guys think we should do with him.

BM

[Battle Mage]

If BM is a miller, then RC's claim corroborates his story.

This is complete and utter insanity.

Why on Earth would a player investigate a claimed miller? In case he gets an innocent result?

There is zero game logic in investigating a Miller.

I buy neither the claim, nor the night choice.

Also, a cult cop would announce all his innocents, not just the latest one. Being cleared of being cult doesn't mean confirmed town. Clearing them from being cult doesn't make them a NK target in any way, shape or form.

vote: Rosso Carne

Thats a good point by TS (albeit a little while ago). Rosso, who did you investigate N0?

BM

[Nemesis]

And you misread my post. If what I suspect is true, the scum thought the doc would protect me when (s)he didn't.

I think this a rather short-sighted approach to the situation. I mean, what IS more important, an RB or a Vig? I know which i'd rather be, but its a matter of opinion, and its totally conceivable that this is what determined the choices-not your breadcrumb early on.

Yeah, there's that... Or there is the fact that the vig was completely and utterly left wide open with a huge target on her.

Please explain.

Well the vig was unmissably the vig, a great deal of attention was drawn to her being the vig. She did seem pretty resigned to her fate and a great deal was made out of her probable death. She was by far the most obvious target.

you might want to consider potential motives of my comments. If you still think it is worth discussing openly, then you may proceed.

1: You thought the roleblocker would ignore you anyway.

2: You have a night action despite saying a number of times that you havn't.

3: You feared a bus driver?


No, I'm not quite there. Why would a miller ask the Roleblocker not to target them but instead to make no night action?

*sigh*
Ok, lets try a different question. Why would a Mafioso ask the RoleBlocker not to target them?

BM

1: They have an ability they want to use.

2: If they must make the kill then they'll like it to go through.

3: Because they think that asking not to be targetted would ensure they are targetted and thus their partner could make the kill?

1. ok, what conceivable abilities could i have as scum?
Mafia RB? Nope, because a game with a Mafia RB does not feature a Town RB-its a broken setup.
Mafia Doctor? Who would i be that worried about protecting? lol
Please feel free to come up with some possible scenarios. So far, i cant see any.

2. Erm, we dont have any mafia dead yet. Why would 1 scumbag NEED to make the kill?

3. Thats WIFOM, and in practice, makes very little sense.

Keep trying.

BM

1: Scum could have virtually any ability. If you think that scum abilities are restricted to Doctor and Roleblocker you really need to play on IRC, it's amazing the stuff scum could theoretically have. Vote Stealer, Framer, Tracker, Switcher, Cheat, Redirector, Witch, etc.

This is a game modded by Jordan. In fact, it is his first large game as the primary moderator. This isnt scumchat or mafia IRC.

2: If the Godfather loses his unKNable ability or alway innocent ability

How is that even possible, and even if it was, how would it affect who made the kill?

... If the mafia are restricted in kills

All Mafia are restricted in kills. Normally 1 per night. It doesnt affect who makes the kill though.

... If his scum buddy had been culted

Scum cannot normally be culted, for obvious reasons. But, again, even if it were possible, we are probably looking at a mafia group of 4-5 people here. Theres still plenty of options.

... If his scum buddy was MIA and he didn't have the choice of sending him...

Usually, he would still have the option of stating that the MIA player would perform the kill. But even then, theres going to be plenty more buddies, not all of whom are going to be MIA. -.-

I did not say it was, I simply said that restricting mafia abilities to 2 very common ones may force you to overlook others.

Well, the GF wouldn't want to loose those cool abilities and wouldn't want to make the kill.

Sorry, I meant restricted on who makes the kills. I'm sure I've seen a game or two with an order. (Rare yes, unprecedented no.)

Yeah, that's a fair point.

Sometimes whoever sends the pm makes the kill.

So far, you have failed to make ANY valid scenarios in which i would be scum, asking the RB not to target me. You've proven your own case invalid. Unfortunately you've rolefished to the extent that i have to now fully-claim. I'm not just a Miller. I'm a Miller cum Hider. Each night in order to protect myself, i can leave my house, and go stay with someone else, so if i am targetted by scum, i dont die, but if they target the guy im hiding with, then we both die. If I get Roleblocked, i wont be able to hide, and will probably die...

Happy now? -.-
BM

It's not rolefishing when you say you definately are just a miller and do nothing.

I'm really starting to dislike Nemesis's "I saved the vig" defense.

You keep finding stuff I say to dislike. My disclaimer here is when I said "it probably had no effect at all". Keep searching though, I'm sure you'll find something.

the mod just changed his mind.

The mod corrected you after a misunderstanding or the mod clarified the situation to you after seeing you wern't sure what would happen or the mod randomly PMed you saying "I've changed my mind"?

Also, you said before that the mod implied a miller would show up guilty anyway, so when the mod changed his mind, what exactly changed? Just your understanding of the situation or something else?

[armlx]

What night did you target BM exactly Rosso. N1 is sorta vague given the terminology issues on this site.

[Battle Mage]

And you misread my post. If what I suspect is true, the scum thought the doc would protect me when (s)he didn't.

I think this a rather short-sighted approach to the situation. I mean, what IS more important, an RB or a Vig? I know which i'd rather be, but its a matter of opinion, and its totally conceivable that this is what determined the choices-not your breadcrumb early on.

Yeah, there's that... Or there is the fact that the vig was completely and utterly left wide open with a huge target on her.

Please explain.

Well the vig was unmissably the vig, a great deal of attention was drawn to her being the vig. She did seem pretty resigned to her fate and a great deal was made out of her probable death. She was by far the most obvious target.

That being the case, why did you think that the Scum would expect the Doc to target someone who was OBVIOUSLY less likely to be NKed?

you might want to consider potential motives of my comments. If you still think it is worth discussing openly, then you may proceed.

1: You thought the roleblocker would ignore you anyway.

2: You have a night action despite saying a number of times that you havn't.

3: You feared a bus driver?


No, I'm not quite there. Why would a miller ask the Roleblocker not to target them but instead to make no night action?

*sigh*
Ok, lets try a different question. Why would a Mafioso ask the RoleBlocker not to target them?

BM

1: They have an ability they want to use.

2: If they must make the kill then they'll like it to go through.

3: Because they think that asking not to be targetted would ensure they are targetted and thus their partner could make the kill?

1. ok, what conceivable abilities could i have as scum?
Mafia RB? Nope, because a game with a Mafia RB does not feature a Town RB-its a broken setup.
Mafia Doctor? Who would i be that worried about protecting? lol
Please feel free to come up with some possible scenarios. So far, i cant see any.

2. Erm, we dont have any mafia dead yet. Why would 1 scumbag NEED to make the kill?

3. Thats WIFOM, and in practice, makes very little sense.

Keep trying.

BM

1: Scum could have virtually any ability. If you think that scum abilities are restricted to Doctor and Roleblocker you really need to play on IRC, it's amazing the stuff scum could theoretically have. Vote Stealer, Framer, Tracker, Switcher, Cheat, Redirector, Witch, etc.

This is a game modded by Jordan. In fact, it is his first large game as the primary moderator. This isnt scumchat or mafia IRC.

2: If the Godfather loses his unKNable ability or alway innocent ability

How is that even possible, and even if it was, how would it affect who made the kill?

... If the mafia are restricted in kills

All Mafia are restricted in kills. Normally 1 per night. It doesnt affect who makes the kill though.

... If his scum buddy had been culted

Scum cannot normally be culted, for obvious reasons. But, again, even if it were possible, we are probably looking at a mafia group of 4-5 people here. Theres still plenty of options.

... If his scum buddy was MIA and he didn't have the choice of sending him...

Usually, he would still have the option of stating that the MIA player would perform the kill. But even then, theres going to be plenty more buddies, not all of whom are going to be MIA. -.-

I did not say it was, I simply said that restricting mafia abilities to 2 very common ones may force you to overlook others.

True, but ive challenged you to a valid exception to the rule, and you havent done so.

Well, the GF wouldn't want to loose those cool abilities and wouldn't want to make the kill.

This doesnt make any sense. Since when did the GF lose basic functions of his role by making an NK???? 0.o

Sorry, I meant restricted on who makes the kills. I'm sure I've seen a game or two with an order. (Rare yes, unprecedented no.)

Actually, this is the one valid point you have made. And this is the way more often than you might think. BUT, in such scenarios, the primary killer is ALWAYS the Godfather. And 95% of the time, this same Godfather is immune to investigation, which i am clearly not, having claimed MILLER. lol

Sometimes whoever sends the pm makes the kill.

VERY rarely is that an uncomprising rule.

So far, you have failed to make ANY valid scenarios in which i would be scum, asking the RB not to target me. You've proven your own case invalid. Unfortunately you've rolefished to the extent that i have to now fully-claim. I'm not just a Miller. I'm a Miller cum Hider. Each night in order to protect myself, i can leave my house, and go stay with someone else, so if i am targetted by scum, i dont die, but if they target the guy im hiding with, then we both die. If I get Roleblocked, i wont be able to hide, and will probably die...

Happy now? -.-
BM

It's not rolefishing when you say you definately are just a miller and do nothing.

Yes it is!!!

BM

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

i can actually see a case for him as town, on the grounds that his claim in THAT GAME was inspired by the role he recieved at a similar time, in this game.

That was what I was thinking. Let's wagon whome now.

[armlx]

BM, I have seen games where GF is not investigation immune while killing. It was pretty common when I joined actually.

I will have to ponder the Rosso case more, but WhoMe is admittedly another good choice.

[Battle Mage]

TSPN-You know which game we are referring to then?

Armlx- Link me to one which occurred recently. I havent been here as long as you, but ive played about 75 games on MS, and havent once seen that feature of the GF role.

BM

[armlx]

BM- Would take to long to find. Like I said, it was common when I joined. I don't remember details of those game from 2 years ago. I was just saying Nemesis probably has legitimately seen that variety of godfather enough to say that.

[Battle Mage]

ok. As long as Nemesis is willing to accept that unless he can provide a recent example of such a method being used, he cannot consider this a viable option.

BM

[armlx]

I'm not trying to say it would occur in this game (I doubt it would in any game now), just saying I see where Nemesis would say that from.

[Matt_S]

You keep finding stuff I say to dislike. My disclaimer here is when I said "it probably had no effect at all". Keep searching though, I'm sure you'll find something.

You aren't using logic. You admit that it probably did nothing to help the vig, yet you are still using it to defend yourself. I find that scummy. And I don't have to keep searching, because I've already seen enough.