Mini 622 - Mind Screw Mafia - Das ist alles!

[iamausername]

Before I place my vote, question to everybody- Did you recieve a rule in your pm? A yes or no, you do not have to say it... yet.

I did not.

Also,

Vote: Battousai

, because he's first alphabetically and that's my thing.

FoS count is worrying me, because I never use those things.

"Genesis turns to its source, reductuon occurs stepwise though the essence is all one. End of Line"

They will not harm their own.

[iamausername]

I have a question of my own, though: does everybody's role include a name and something extra in parentheses?

That it does, yes.

[iamausername]

Interesting. Vote count is inaccurate, but only in one aspect. FoS count is entirely accurate.

Going to try an

Unvote, Vote: Jenter

to see what happens.

[iamausername]

And a

Vote: Cavebear

, because who knows if unvoting is necessary or useful here?

[iamausername]

Also, iamausername, the vote count is wrong in multiple places.

Multiple places, but not multiple

aspects

- the names of voters are correct and in the correct places, and the numbers are also correct, just in the wrong places. At least, that's how it appears at the moment. Three votes might not be enough to say for sure.

[iamausername]

Also, iamausername, the vote count is wrong in multiple places.

Multiple places, but not multiple

aspects

- the names of voters are correct and in the correct places, and the numbers are also correct, just in the wrong places. At least, that's how it appears at the moment. Three votes might not be enough to say for sure.

Wait, I didn't notice the "Not voting" list. OK, two aspects.

I didn't see that one either... - Tar

Anyway, I think we can say for sure that the vote counts have a consistent logic to their structure at this point. How this relates to actual votes, I don't know.

[iamausername]

and you have to unvote to revote.

This part looks right. The rest, not so much.

Iamausername is a double voter?

Or there's a 13th player we don't know about
Or at least one person can vote silently

Check the first vote count, Jenter already had two before my vote. Seems to be that he receives Yosarian votes.

Korts -> ???
Battousai -> Yosarian2
Jenter Brocliani -> Musher333
remussaidow -> ???
MafiaSSK -> ???
Musher333 -> ???
Macavenger -> ???
Cavebear with a toothache -> ???
Jex -> ???
Nocmen -> ???
Yosarian2 -> Jenter Brocliani
iamausername -> ???

I think we're going to want to figure out where our votes will really end up, so

Unvote, Vote: Korts

. This may take a while.

[iamausername]

We're gonna need someone else to vote Korts or Musher before the next votecount (and no other votes) so we can tell which vote is which, by the way.

What'll be really interesting to see is who's eventually lynched; the guy with the votecount or the guy with the names.

Indeed. I'm betting on it being the former, at the moment, just because that would make things more difficult.

[iamausername]

Updated list:

Korts -> MafiaSSK
Battousai -> Yosarian2
Jenter Brocliani -> Musher333
remussaidow -> ???
MafiaSSK -> ???
Musher333 -> ???
Macavenger -> ???
Cavebear with a toothache -> ???
Jex -> ???
Nocmen -> ???
Yosarian2 -> Jenter Brocliani
iamausername -> ???

Unvote, Vote: remussaidow

We now want someone else to vote with me, then someone to vote MafiaSSK, then a third on a remus, then a second on SSK, then one on Musher. And so on.

Although either Tar has made another error on the votecount, or this is more complicated than I thought, because apparently I'm simultaneously voting and not voting again. And Musher333 has a vote that doesn't seem to be accounted for.

Edit: That would be "Tar is screwing up the votecount. Again." - Tar

Also wondering if we can UnFoS, since it's quite possible that FoSes have some tangible effect here. I'll leave someone who's already used one to test that out, in case we can't, and they do.

[iamausername]

And UnFoSing works. Excellent.

Unvote, Vote: MafiaSSK

.

Next person should be voting Musher.

Korts -> MafiaSSK
Battousai -> Yosarian2
Jenter Brocliani -> Musher333
remussaidow -> Macavenger
MafiaSSK -> ???
Musher333 -> ???
Macavenger -> ???
Cavebear with a toothache -> ???
Jex -> ???
Nocmen -> ???
Yosarian2 -> Jenter Brocliani
iamausername -> ???

[iamausername]

Korts -> MafiaSSK
Battousai -> Yosarian2
Jenter Brocliani -> Musher333
remussaidow -> Macavenger
MafiaSSK -> Battousai
Musher333 -> iamausername
Macavenger -> Jex/Nocmen
Cavebear with a toothache -> Jex/Nocmen
Jex -> ???
Nocmen -> Cavebear with a toothache
Yosarian2 -> Jenter Brocliani
iamausername -> ???

Almost there now...

Unvote, Vote: Jex

.

[iamausername]

Point of Order!

"The pattern is self-evident, if only you can see the key."

Is there some obvious pattern we're missing here?

I was thinking the same when I saw that, but couldn't see any. Kind of immaterial at this point, since the next votecount should complete the mapping for us anyway.

[iamausername]

Or that, yeah.

[iamausername]

Well, now that we've figured out the pattern, I guess I can get on with voting properly. Oh wait, I already am. Huh.

About the question, you're right, I see it now.

Noone else answer my question

Korts, you say you've realised now that Yos was right and your rolename questioning can only really benefit scum, but what benefit did you think it could have for town when you originally asked?

[iamausername]

Cylons are bad guys.

They're just misunderstood.

Yes [we should try lynching the mod]. Since town usually doesn't lycnh scum on the first day.

Do not like this.

FoS: MafiaSSK

.

[iamausername]

Actually,

Unvote, Vote: Korts

. Because we don't have any way of knowing where the votes really count, and I'd much rather be voting MafiaSSK than Jex at the moment.

[iamausername]

iamausername - why would you rather be voting SSK than Jex currently? They've both been somewhat lurkish.

For the reason I FoSed him in this post - What he said there was basically akin to suggesting that we should vote No Lynch today because quote "town usually doesn't lycnh scum on the first day", which I'm sure we can all agree is a terrible strategy.

[iamausername]

For the reason I FoSed him in this post - What he said there was basically akin to suggesting that we should vote No Lynch today because quote "town usually doesn't lycnh scum on the first day", which I'm sure we can all agree is a terrible strategy.

But he didn't actually suggest a no lynch, he suggested lynching the mod. Which, according to Korts (if I understand him correctly) is more like a random lynch. Which is even worse.

I didn't mean to suggest that SSK was actually advocating a no lynch (I'm sure lynching the mod will have more effect than that), merely that his reasoning for voting Tar was just as faulty as that same reasoning would be if applied to a vote of no lynch.

P.S., Tar, I believe my name should be in front of Korts and SSK should have a (3) next to his.

Once again, the omniscient proves that he cannot make a proper vote count to save his life. Eighth, Nine, and Tenth Vote Counts repaired. - Tar

[iamausername]

I don't think making assumptions about alignment based on role names is a good idea in a game called "Mind Screw Mafia".

[iamausername]

Anyone else notice that there are three "game specific" rules listed at the start, yet Tar started Day 1 saying "New Rule"

four

times? I'm not so sure we've got all the rules here.

Agreeing with Mac's speculation on Yos being probable town.

Also,

Vote: Jex

(MafiaSSK), because my reasoning for voting him yesterday still applies.

[iamausername]

Actually, I think it works to our advantage if I don't keep this to myself.

Not going to fully claim, but at night, I am able to find out two random rules. I may or may not have other night actions.

Anyway, I did this last night, and was told rule 14, exactly as it appears in the thread, and rule 29, which says that a count of the number of town/scum/third party players left alive will be appearing along with each vote count, and that we can trust this count to be accurate.

So, there are presumably at least 7 rules (22-28) that we don't yet know.

[iamausername]

...And now I notice that the day started with a vote count, and yet there's no town/scum/other count to be seen. So maybe the rule isn't at the start of the thread because it doesn't apply yet. Or maybe there will be one in the next vote count. Hmm.

[iamausername]

Well then. It appears that that part of my role is now entirely useless. Except possibly to verify myself if/when rule 29 does show up.

[iamausername]

username, did your rule state specifically what third parties we're looking for, or even if they do exist?

It doesn't.

[iamausername]

Iamausername: What do you mean rule 29 would verify you?

Well, if it later appears, it will demonstrate that I have the ability that I say I have. It's probably not an ability that has any inherent townliness, so it's not a particularly useful verification, but it's something.

[iamausername]

I'm against the idea of a mass name claim, because I don't think there's likely to be an obvious link between role name and alignment, so it doesn't seem like we'd gain anything, and scum might be able to make educated guesses about which role names would be most likely attached to a power role that's particularly dangerous to them. Can't see how it would help the town.

[iamausername]

Battousai, please tell us why you think a name claim is a good idea.

MafiaSSK, please attract more votes.

Simple enough.

[iamausername]

Because you're scum, but apparently no one else has realised yet.

[iamausername]

Current Deadline:

July 18, 2008

Next Mod Deadline Review:

July 11, 2008

We don't have no idea when the dealine's coming; it's coming

soon

.

[iamausername]

It does, but your name still shows up in the wrong place on the vote count, remember? The numbers are what's important, and there's a (2) next to SSK, not Jex.

[iamausername]

Is there any reason why we shouldn't have SSK claim properly at this point?

[iamausername]

quick question...
voting jex puts votes on SSK?

This is correct.

[iamausername]

Yeah, my point is that he's already half claimed by saying

If I roleclaimed you'd understand a lot why you shouldn't lynch me.

and at this point, I don't think it would harm the town any to have him claim fully.

If he's town, he's already painted a big target on himself with this, and I don't think this would be increased a whole lot by telling us exactly why it is that we'd understand why we shouldn't lynch him.
If he's scum, then forcing him to pin himself down to a particular lie is obviously a good idea.

I would like to see SSK contribute as well, but that is in no way mutually exclusive to claiming.

[iamausername]

OK,

Unvote

. Name claim would also be good. I would also suggest demonstrating this revival power on Korts, but the fact that he's "Erased From Existence", not "Fading Away" suggests that this may not be possible.

And then

Vote: MafiaSSK

[Battousai] based on his resistance to the logic that puts Yosarian as probable town, and more importantly, the total disconnect between these two posts:

You just roleclaimed MafiaSSK, and are now a target of the scum if you yourself are not scum. You could have EASILY avoided it by posting content or at least a player anaysis for the top 3 players you find scummy (if you don't find anyone scummy, a game analysis).

Iamausername, why do you want MafiaSSK to claim so bad? All he has to say is vanilla townie and we gather no information and MafiaSSK would continue to not contribute.

[iamausername]

Revival is a wholly testable ability, and one which I think is highly unlikely to be in the hands of scum. Why wouldn't I unvote?

Also, not particularly important, but I was thinking of reviving as being a day power, due to something in another ongoing game of mine. Either way, we can find out for sure if he has this power, and lynch him later if he's lying.

As far as Battousai's inconsistency goes, I'm not seeing how "you are now a target of the scum if you yourself are not scum" is something you'd say if you thought he was just saying "you shouldn't lynch me because I'm town!", because if that was all he was saying, then how would he be making himself a target? Scum would already know he was town.
Nor am I seeing how you'd take "if I roleclaimed, you'd understand a lot why you shouldn't lynch me" as in any way likely to be a vanilla townie softclaim. It just doesn't sit right with me.

[iamausername]

I personally don't want to use my role power, unless a doctor dies. I also believe I can only revive pro-town roles.

No. You're using your power on the first pro-town player you get the chance to, because we want proof that you actually have this power, and when we reach endgame, it doesn't matter what other powers they have; confirmed town status is incredibly useful in itself.

And, yeah, I'd like to see a flavour explanation for why you can revive people. And if you're not sure about exactly how your role works (like, whether you can use both your powers in one night), then PM the mod and find out. You should do that as soon as you read the role PM.

[iamausername]

You'll never know if you don't try.

[iamausername]

That's a pretty big error. Please explain what your role actually does, what the flavour reasons for your abilities are, and how exactly you came to make such a huge misinterpretation.

[iamausername]

Yes, so what made you think you could revive anyone?

[iamausername]

I can also Cheat Death where

if I'm killed in any way

it is revealed as an elaborate ruse by the other players and I am not killed. However, I can only do this once.

Does this include lynching?

[iamausername]

Which rule? I just looked at them and I did not see any rule that states that a player who does xxx will need less votes to be lynched or any of the sort.

This one:

<19> Game-specific rule: Whenever a player breaks a rule that is not punishable by modkill, they will be informed that they have committed a rule infraction and told the post number where they broke a rule.

For every 5 rules infractions incurred, the guilty player will require 1 fewer vote to lynch

. (If the rule broken was a temporary rule, then its associated rules infractions will be removed when the rule is removed.)

I think there could be any number of other reasons that SSK requires one less vote to lynch, though.

Unvote, Vote: Jex

[MafiaSSK] again, since my reason for unvoting him is now gone. His actual role is also testable, but one-shot unkillable could easily be town or scum.

[iamausername]

Which is me, as Battousai intended.

Vote: Musher333

, I don't like your recent posts. Your contradictions for my posts are poor, case is bad. You then switch back to MafiaSSK, which to me looks like you're voting him because there's a wagon on him now (as I don't know why you unvoted him in the first place that could later be dropped to later let you vote him)

When I unvoted SSK, there was just as much of a wagon on him as there is now, so I don't see how you can say I'm only voting him because of that.

And I've already stated pretty clearly why I dropped my vote and why I've returned to it, but I'll explain again; he said he could revive a player, that is an easily testable ability that I don't believe scum would have. He has since retracted that claim, thus I am voting him again.

[iamausername]

So hey, while SSK feared modkill for explaining how he thought he could revive a player, I have no such fears, and I think I might have figured it out anyway, looking at his original claim:

Since, I softclaimed I will full claim right here. I am a

One-Shot Pro-Town Reviver

. I can also Cheat Death where if I'm killed in any way it is revealed as an elaborate ruse by the other players and I am not killed. However, I can only do this once.

I would guess the bolded is more or less a direct quote from his role PM, and that he read this and didn't realise that "reviver" referred to himself, not anyone else, and the 'Cheat Death' part was an explanation of this, not a separate power. SSK, I'm pretty sure you won't get in trouble for just confirming that I'm on the right track here, if I am.

However, I don't think this says anything much about his alignment, since it would be pretty easy to replace "One-Shot

Mafia

Reviver" with "One-Shot

Pro-Town

Reviver", no?

[iamausername]

I'd prefer if he did both, personally.

[iamausername]

I read my role PM again last night, and I'm concerned that we may have to lynch Yos today.

New Rule.

Is its lack of appearance at the start of the thread intentional? Or am I just being dumb and missing it?

The omniscient sees no error. -Tar

[iamausername]

username, is there a reason you can tell us that yos has to be lynched today?

Yes, but I'd rather not just yet.

[iamausername]

So no, I'm not at all worried that he's going to convince the entire town to lynch me just on the strength of some vauge comments.

Obviously. Yos, would you agree that you are not aligned with the town?

[iamausername]

And yeah, you're going where I thought you were going with this. You're going to reference the town win condition now, right?

Indeed. I didn't just come out straight and say it, because I figured I might get some useful reads on other players from the vagueness. Don't think that was particularly successful, but still worth a try.

I think it's entirely possible that you are correct, and we don't actually need to lynch you, but as I said, I'm concerned that it is a possibility. And if my concern is justified, then obviously we need to lynch you today, since we won't get a chance later.

I'll try asking the mod, but I'm not so sure he'll give me a useful answer. Would like everyone else to go read their win condition and give their thoughts on the matter.

[iamausername]

A single survivor isn't a faction

See, I wouldn't say this is a certainty. 'Faction' doesn't necessarily imply more than one player, which I assume is your reasoning here. Anyway, I PMed Tar, and he did in fact answer helpfully, and I am now satisfied that we can leave Yos in peace.

Also, I'm pretty certain Batt is town at this point. So something useful has come out of this. Gonna need to reread, because he was my main suspect previously.

[iamausername]

Why?

Also, shouldn't it be voting Grimmy that leads to votes on me?

[iamausername]

Iam, no, voting me puts votes on you. Nice try though.

I think you should look at the votecount/rules again. Really, why would I even bother trying to lie about that?

And

Vote: Yosarian

[Grimmy]. I do not think he is aligned with the town.

[iamausername]

<20> Game-specific rule: If a player would vote for another player, that player will instead vote for the player directly below the intended votee in the player list.

Yosarian2
Grimmy (rep. Musher333)
iamausername
remussaidow
Nocmen
Cavebear with a toothache
Jex
Battousai

The player directly below remus is Nocmen, not me.

I'd still like more of an explanation as to why you don't believe I'm aligned with the town, Grimmy.

[iamausername]

If you're this determined to keep your vote on Nocmen, I think you should make a case against him.

[iamausername]

That's not actually a remotely valid reason to vote for me.

a) I'm not a lyncher.
b) Even if I was, then I would lose at the end of today as long as Yosarian wasn't lynched, so lynching me is pointless overkill and wastes a lynch that we could be using on mafia.

[iamausername]

Well, yes, clearly it's in

your

interest for us to not lynch mafia today.

[iamausername]

Because you are mafia.

[iamausername]

The mafia is you, is what I'm getting at.

[iamausername]

Iam, I'm saying your not town becuase you displayed a lack of knowledge of the town's win condition.

I displayed a highly paranoid misinterpretation of the town's win condition. I was told that, for the town to win, all other factions must die. Yosarian admitted that he was not aligned with the town. I don't see how it's so difficult to understand the leap I made there.

[iamausername]

So, by your definition, if there was an SK in the game, we wouldn't have to worry about lynching them either?

[iamausername]

That's not the town win condition though. The town wins when all other factions are dead. The SK, according to you, is not a faction, since he's only one player. Therefore, by your definition, the town would win if only town-aligned players and the SK were alive.

[iamausername]

No, I don't think you think that, I'm just pointing out that not thinking that contradicts your assertion that the word 'faction' can't possibly refer to a single player, which is the entire basis of your case against me.

[iamausername]

My vote is not on you. It is on Iam.

It's actually still on Nocmen.

[iamausername]

umm.. no. Don't put words in my mouth, Iam, it doesn't do anyone any good. I said you displayed lack of knowledge of the standard win condition. Since this is the scummiest that's happen so far today, its what my vote is based on for now.

Show me where I displayed lack of knowledge of the standard win condition without first making the base assumption that 'faction' can't possibly refer to a single person.

[iamausername]

Nocmen, can you try rewording that, because I honestly have no idea why you're voting me.

[iamausername]

Also, it occurs to me that it is in Yos's interest to hammer as soon as anyone reaches L-1, so nobody should put another vote on me or Grimmy unless they're fully prepared to see us dead.

[iamausername]

It's because he pushed for a lynch that should never have come up until tomorrow.

If my concern had been reasonable, then waiting for tomorrow would not have been an option.

And its also because he fought against my solitary vote as though it were the one putting him at lynch -one. If it were me being accused in that situation, as town I wouldn't mind the one or two votes based off of this apparent evidence. Its the fact that he tried to fight, continuously, the same point, when it had to be obvious that I wasn't changing MY opinion on the matter, that my vote stays upon him firmly.

DEFENDING YOURSELF IS NOT A SCUMTELL. NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER.

I mean, seriously, you just did exactly this in response to Cavebear's single vote. If someone has misunderstood me, of course I'm going to try to clear up that misunderstanding. I'm pretty sure you would do the same. It doesn't have any relation to alignment.

I'm not voting remus here, because I still don't believe him to be scum. I think he's a townie who's just being stubborn and refusing to give up on a case that's been pretty well proven to be bad. If he is scum, he's done a far, far better job of acting like he honestly believes in the case against me than either Grimmy or Nocmen.

P.S. Still hoping for that clarification, Nocmen.

[iamausername]

remus is calling me scum because I defended myself too much, and Grimmy is calling me scum because I didn't defend myself enough. Awesome.

[iamausername]

What exactly is this 'slip-up' you keep talking about me having made, Grimmy?

[iamausername]

I'm going to

Unvote, Vote: remussaidow

[Nocmen] at this point. I'm still not entirely sure why he's voting for me, although I assume it's because I'm supposedly a lyncher or something similar. (If I'm wrong, please feel free to correct me, Nocmen).

More to the point, his last post looks like he's setting himself up to hop over to the remus wagon, since it's gaining traction, and mine has obviously stalled, and since I remain fairly confident that remus is town, I don't like that.

[iamausername]

Iam, I don't know that you will garner much support for a nocmen lynch today.

Yeah, I made that vote fully expecting that I'd be switching back to Grimmy in a few days. I do think Nocmen needs looking at, but I guess we don't really have time today.

Unvote, Vote: Yosarian2

[Grimmy].

And I totally forgot that FoSes actually have a meaning in this game, thanks for reminding me.

FoS: Grimmy

,

FoS: Nocmen

.

[iamausername]

I stay with my vote on remus.

That's not where your vote is.

[iamausername]

OK...?

Vote: Yosarian

, again. C'mon, guys.

[iamausername]

Maybe we were supposed to lynch one of the two for the day? (Iam or Yos)?

Thoughts?

Let's try lynching Grimmy first, and if that doesn't work either, we'll think about it.

[iamausername]

So, do we massclaim before or after we no lynch?

[iamausername]

The first. I'm almost certain that we have three town, one scum here; if there were more than one on the same side, it'd be game over, and if there were more than one scum faction, we'd have been seeing more night kills.

I really think we have more chance of lynching correctly in a three man endgame than a four man endgame. I'm just not sure if it will be better for us if whatever town powers we have left are revealed or not before we go to night.

[iamausername]

Wait, I should pay more attention. Rule 22! Woah, that seems too good to be true.

[iamausername]

Ya, totally. I'm thinking remus is the best target for the investigation-lynch, since the other two are so sure he's scum, even if I think they're wrong.

[iamausername]

So... do we mass claim before or after we lynch/investigate?

I vote after. It probably won't make a massive difference, though.

[iamausername]

1. Cavebear
2. remus
3. Battousai
4. iamausername

would be my preferred order, I guess. Although didn't remus claim already?

[iamausername]

Whatever, I don't really care what order the claims go in, because I'm pretty sure we've got this in the bag.

I am Quantum Physics. I have two abilities, the first I explained earlier (learning two random rules), the second is basically a Bus Driver ability. I can only use one of these abilities each night. The flavour reason for why I have these abilities is based on the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.

Anyway, the important point is that last night, I guessed that Battousai would be the most likely NK, and switched him with Nocmen, who I thought was most likely scum. Since Nocmen turned up dead, Batt must have been targeted for the NK, which makes him 100% confirmed town from where I'm sitting. So, add that to the investigation lynch we get, and I at least will know for certain who the last scum is.

Cavebear, I choose you! Claim plz.

[iamausername]

Yeah, my switch goes both ways, so if scum tried to kill Nocmen, Batt would've died.

[iamausername]

I'm fine with either Cavebear or remus, since it has to be one of them, and finding the alignment of one would tell me which, one way or the other. So yeah,

Vote: Cavebear

.

[iamausername]

Aw, I'm kind of disappointed that Cavebear turned up scum (although I was pretty sure he would), because if he hadn't I had a whole awesome plan lined up to vote no lynch and try to make remus shoot himself. I love the Bus Driver role.

This game was awesome, and I'm nominating it for the "Most Enjoyable Mini" Scummy award. And, Tar, do I remember seeing somewhere that you plan to run a Mind Screw II at some point? If so, is it possible for me to pre-in for that right now?

I called the role Pro-Town instead of Townie (Townie is the indicator of being unambiguously town in a Tar game)

I actually picked up on this and did a little reaction fishing to try and see if anyone else had (see the end of this post), but he got himself killed fairly soon after that so it became irrelevant.

[iamausername]

If Cavebear came up town, I was going to propose a No Lynch, and then say that I would be bussing remus with either Cavebear or Battousai, as remus couldn't kill me without confirming himself as scum, so I'd be leaving him with a 50/50 chance of shooting himself in trying to kill one of the townies.

Then, I'd actually switch myself with Battousai, hoping that remus would spot the deliberate mistake in that plan and actually target himself. And if not, he'd still have to pick Cavebear in order to have a chance of winning.

I would have been so pleased if I could pull that one off.