Newbie 621 (Game Over!)

[Mirth]

Mod: mass proddage please?

[mercdaemon]

Because I'm more convinced about Merc. My case on Batto is mostly WIFOM and I realize this.

At this stage, with regards to my status as pro/anti-town, you're either misguided or scum.

If the former, then I'm sorry I gave you that impression. You've stated what you've got on me and I feel I've answered the bits you've brought up. It seems that most of what you have is that I kept going after TSQ/farside22 and he/she turned out to be the cop.

If your case on Batt is "mostly WIFOM", then do you have suspicions on other players at this stage?

Also, Batt asked you what you think about the recent interaction between Malex and himself.

as foe Batto's FoS'ing I guess I could see it as a tactic to draw attention away from himself, but I don't think thats the case here.

So what do you think is the case?

[Gremwell]

I think people have a tendency (this game especially) to drop off the radar from time to time, It didn't look like he was backed into a corner, and he's been prodding people all game, I think he was trying to get people back into it.

[Mirth]

Merc, my going after you has nothing to do with Farside flipping cop, actually. It has to do with the way you went after TSQ/Farside.

And I missed Batto throwing my own question back at me, actually. Their interaction makes me think that they're not a scum pair.

[mith]

Vote Count:

4 to lynch.

Battousai: 2 (Gremwell, zeal)
mercdaemon: 1 (Mirth)
Mirth: 1 (mercdaemon)
zeal: 1 (Battousai)

I'll try to find a replacement for zeal, but given the difficulty I've had getting a replacement for kristopf, he may just have to stay in. Deadline coming whenever I do get kristopf/AK47x2 replaced.

[Battousai]

Ok, I'll try this again (internet lost connection last time). D2 has had many mistakes made, which allows the scum mistakes to hide between them. With Kristopf/AK not posting, makes getting a read on them very difficult. So I'm just going to post some suspicious pairs. Right now I can see a Mirth/Zeal pair and a Malex/Zeal pair. Merc has also been a little suspicious today as well. Gremwell, looked good for a D1 deadline lynch, but with today's posts I don't think I would support his lynch right now. So I'm happy with my original vote on Zeal.

The vote against me by Grem seems to be a little OMGUS from me singling him out D1 and getting a wagon formed by him (You have a reason, but I think you are narrowing in on me based on my D1 vote). Zeal's case was the fact that I'm still alive D2 which is BS. I really don't know Merc's or Mirth's cases that well to comment on them. So, what do you guys think?

[Mirth]

Why do you see a Malex/Zeal pair. I think that's the most unlikely combination possible.

[Battousai]

It's just lately. I'm starting to build a case against Zeal's parroting. Noteing how it's scummy and then Malex comes in and puts pressure on me for FoSing 3 people for not being active during a convo. Honestly this is from memory, there may be posts in between, but I'm just trying to get some conversation going and keep this game alive.

Why is a Malex/Zeal pair very unlikely? Is there anything either Malex of Zeal done that would automatically say to you definately not a scum pair?

[Mirth]

I think Malex is town. But I suppose this means I need to do another reread to reexamine why I think Malex/Zeal are an unlikely scumpair, because I just dont see anything there. (I see and understand your case on Zeal, I can understand why you could suspect Malex, but I'm not seeing connections.)

[Battousai]

It's more of like a chainsaw defense, I'll have to do a reread to confirm it, but basically he's attacking someone's accuser out of the blue, effectively leading the discussion away from zeal and towards myself.

Now I have a question for EVERYONE. What do you guys think about lynching an empty chair (AK/Zeal)? Are you for it if you feel the person is scummy, or do you feel like you have to wait for the chair to be filled to get a defense out of the person? I asked a similar question in another game and they thought I was implying that I wanted to lynch an empty chair, so I'm just going to say I'm trying not to imply how I feel here.

[Mirth]

I only believe in lynching the empty chair if the empty chair is the scummiest person around without a doubt but would much much rather wait for a replacement. And I don't think either Zeal nor AK qualify as "scummiest around without a doubt"

[Gremwell]

I agree with the above post by mirth

and as a show of good faith I'll go ahead and

Unvote

and I'll go ahead and reread also

[Mirth]

Explain your unvote please?

[Gremwell]

I don't see the Batto wagon going anywhere so I've decided to unvote, reread and do some completely objective scum hunting (well as objective as a person can be anyway)

it takes nothing to put my vote back up, the game has gotten stale and I'm trying to clear my head and re-attack this game.

[Gremwell]

Batto, if you wern't one of Mirth's suspects would you be more inclined to believe her claim?

Mirth, would you feel comfortable hammering batto if there had been three votes up there?

zeal and ak are out right now.

I'd like to hear more out of Malex and merc, I'd say it looks like active lurking but the whole thread is dragging right now.

We have one claim out and 2 dead townies and plenty of back and forth between a few of us, thats plenty to make some assumptions on, I'm going to vote later on tomorrow, I'd like to see what you all have to say first.

[mercdaemon]

Batto: I'm not really happy to lynch AK based on virtually nothing. Fingers crossed we get a replacement who would give us a better idea. Zeal I would have to look at a bit more closely tomorrow (just got home from a LAN, no sleep and lots of driving makes merc a tired boy). I agree there was quite a bit of "me too" in her play on D2 but I'd have to go back to D1 and see what I can turn up there.

[Mirth]

Grem, maybe. I don't know. Because my case on Batto is weak. If he did something to raise my suspicion further, maybe. Right now, probably not. I would prefer a Merc lynch if this is all we have to go on at this moment.

Also, I said I'd be doing a reread, but I'm having some eye problems at the moment. Working on the computer is putting some strain on my eyes, so I'm going to hold off on rereading a bit until the pain goes away. (Will still try to post a lot, since that doesnt involve reading huge walls of text, but I'm going to hold off on a reread until it becomes absolutely necessary or I can get to an eye doctor, whichever comes first.)

[Battousai]

Grem: No, because to me, her claim didn't help the town, in fact it hurt us. Mirth said she was certain that the scum would roleblock her again, so she claimed. Now the scum KNOWS she's the doc and will roleblock/kill her tonight if she is the doc. The only thing I can see that was gained would be if Mirth was scum, because she has claimed a powerrole and no one has countered it (possibly because there is no doc in the game). Now, I don't find Mirth all too scummy, so her past actions do give credit to her claim.

[Mirth]

And again, I didn't really see a loss there since I was queued up to be rendered useless anyway. ~shrug~

Malex: what do you think of Zeal? What do you think of Merc? What do you think of Grem?

[mith]

ClockworkRuse replaces kristopf/AK47x2.

[Battousai]

Welcome ClockworkRuse. Quick question, we think there is a doc in the game. Are you the doc?

[ClockworkRuse]

Well, hello everyone. I am going to be replacing AK and... Kristop, I believe it was. I'm a semi-experienced player, if any of the new players have a question about that I will answer it.

No, I am not the doctor. But I do come with a list of my read through from earlier yesterday.

First, I would like to ask Mirth how it feels to be a Shepard. Because you have a mighty big flock following you right now.

I would like to point out these posts of players, starting with Mirth then progressing through the order of posts.

Why believe me so easily? I could just as well be scum, know there is no roleblocker, and claim doc because the only real town powerrole was killed.

When you say things like this right after role claiming it makes me concerned. It is entirely possible that you are trying to pull the wool over our eyes. I quite frankly don't know what to believe. Also, for someone who kept saying how you wanted to have to upper hand for as long as possible, was this really the appropriate time to put all of your cards on the table? Or could it be another way to keep the upper hand?

Completely possible, yes. But I pretty much needed to claim. Though I must say, if I were smart scum who knew there was no doctor, I'd have waited a bit closer to endgame to avoid the WIFOM for surviving.

What pressure on you made you realize you had to vote? You had no votes on you, during my re-read I didn't even see a crumb from you. Why was it absolutely necessary for you to claim?

Let's see, there could be a chance Mirth is scum (thus I would have been roleblocked and then Farside killed. Or it could be the fact that NONE of the IC's were scum, thus they could only effect 2 of the 3 of us. What your saying is that YOU thought FARSIDE was scummier than I was, thus Farside should have been kept alive instead of myself.

I don't like your statement. You think I'm scummy, because I'm alive and not Farside.

Except that there is no chance of that and you gain scum points for even suggesting it. If I am scum, then there is no doctor, thus there is also no roleblocker, thus you could not have been roleblocked. And you should know that.

I don't understand how if he made the mistake of saying 'I could have been roleblocked' when obviously in that scenario there wouldn't be a role blocker would mean that he's scum.

Except that there is no chance of that and you gain scum points for even suggesting it. If I am scum, then there is no doctor, thus there is also no roleblocker, thus you could not have been roleblocked. And you should know that.

If you are scum, you could be partnered with a roleblocker and would know that you are. I haven't seen anything in the play that would remove that possibility.

The "strategy" of "killing off ICs" was suggested by Batt back in post 410. If we're to go with your version of events do you believe that scum-Batt would have brought this up?

If I was scum and my partner was the roleblocker, then I couldn't claim doctor. Because we have a cop. That means there is either only the cop *or* both the doctor and the roleblocker too. If I was scum then there'd be a real doctor around to counterclaim me. None of you have so far and Kristopfs replacement wont, I can assure you. (If he does, lynch us both, doctor for scum is a good trade)

Batto, I got what you were saying, but how you made your point bothers me. Your specific example. You don't get scum points for suggesting that I'm scum, you get scum points for suggesting you were roleblocked, because if I'm lying, there would be no roleblocker.

Thank you for explain to us what you would have done us doctor. Also, I disagree that doctor is a good trade for scum.

Why are you only appearing after he FOSed you?

because I just sat down at the computer

This is a good example of bad posting and I do not like it one bit.

In all honesty, I was only going to FOS Malex, then I noticed Grem didn't vote since then either. Must have missed Merc as well.

FOS: Merc

I find it amusing that you FOS me only after Mirth tells you to do so. Can you give the court your reasoning why you think I'm suspicious? I've already stated my opinion that Mirth's reasoning behind thinking I'm scum is flimsy approaching non-existent, but all she wants to do is keep going with the "I think Merc is scum line". Got anything else yourself?

If Battousai wasn't suspicious of you himself, he wouldn't have FoSed you. It's apparent that he is weary of Mirth's claim thus he wouldn't let himself get pushed around by him.

Bat, if you are getting pushed around by Mirth then shame on you.

Battousai - After doing a read through of day 2 looking for reasons of your suspicion I have found that most of the things you have said can be read into as scummy. If it is read with an assumption of your scummyness, there is seeming to me to be more of a strong case . Keep in mind I am also reading this believing Mirth's Doctor claim.

Starting from post 415 it seems most apparent to me.

Mod: Has Kristoph picked up the prod or are you looking for a replacement?

I

think

that Mirth is refering to why Farside was killed over me and her. If I was newb scum I would have killed Mirth first, unless she was my partner, and then probably Farside, as a Battousai lynch would probably be easier than a Farside at that point.

Mirth then brings up the idea of the doctor and Batto responds:

As I could not find any tells, the only way they would have known there to be a doctor or a cop is if there are two goons and no roleblocker.

You have been a member for over six months and you don't know the format of the game? Again this next post shows my point.

If they had a roleblocker, then they wouldn't know for sure if there was a town power role. That is why I did not include it.

But they'd darn sure be considering it and act as if there were two of them just in case. Or do you not agree with me here?

Post 428

Activity has been dwindling, I would like more people to contribute. The convo me and Mirth is having isn't really scumhunting, so I think it's best we move on from that.

When the conversation continues, you dismiss that there is a Role Blocker again.

I meant the fact of RB using their ability or whether or not there is a RB, that's extraneous

This reads to me that not only are you scum, but you are the role-blocker.

After Mirth's claim your next post is really defensive for seemingly no reason. Especially considering that no one was voting for you at the time. You then FoS the presumed Doctor and Super-FoS Zeal before changing to a vote your next post. You then end up FoSing everyone for the most part. Good way to draw attention away from yourself following that back and forth. I just find most of these posts questionable.
With all I have said I am leading towards a vote, but I still find it a bit premature. Just read through Day 2 looking at what Battosai is saying, and I think you may agree with me that if nothing else, those posts do seem to be the posts of someone trying to keep attention away from himself, and for that I have to ask why.

I do not buy this argument for one bit.

If I say there is not doctor and continually dismiss the idea of a doctor being present in this game then must I be the doctor? According to that kind of logic, I am. And that's a bad argument to make, in my opinion. Exploring the possibility that Mirth is lying is an acceptable play in my book. You should NEVER just believe a claim. EVER. You should always be questioning and looking for slips from

everyone

, Mirth included.
[That is ENTIRELY HYPOTHETICAL.]

The possibility of there being no doctor and there being no roleblocker is 50-50. I don't like that you call Mirth the 'presumed' doctor. I would have much preferred Claimed or something of the sort. Presumed to me says that you aren't that suspicious of him at all and you should be suspicious of

everyone.

Batto, then why not frame you with Grem?

Why I think Merc is scummy:
post 2 he says that maybe TSQ picked up on something with me. Game barely started. Nothing to pick up on. This rings false. (as does the thinking I'm dangerous part)
6: starting the TSQ attack
11: sounds like trying to sit on both sides of the fence in regards to TSQ
12: suggests TSQ has a strategy
14, 16: tries to connect Batto to TSQ (this connection doesn't really exist as I was defending him a lot more)
18: afraid id call him on parroting again
23: continues to think Farside is scum without any real reason
28: suggests i'm scum in a very subtle manner. (the subtlety here is what bothers me, because it appears to leave room for backtracking.)

2: Easily a Townie mistake. Could be pushing for TSQ to explain his reasoning.
6: TSQ attack was reasonable. No one knew that Status was the cop and the lurking plus more horrible play is reason enough for that wagon.
11: People can often change their minds about a case, I'm sure I could point out instances where you have.
12: Flawed play, I agree.
14,16: See above.
18: Being called on parroting is a scum-tell, for me this reason if fifty-fifty. He could be avoiding that to form his own opinions or he could be scum moving away from your flock.
23: Easy newbie move, that said learn from your mistakes Merc. Null tell for me.
28: Why subtly say it? [See below after the influx of posts]

Bat's post 493 on Page 20 to me is a good post. [Too long to quote here.]

Mirth- The action that I FoS'd him for can not be taken away by posting more (I was suspicious of him for being gone at a CERTAIN time). From his recent posts, he has gotten scummier to me.

Explain the CERTAIN time and why it makes Malex suspicious.


That said, I will say that Mirth is well within the top three of my scum list.

Without being able to confirm/deny the existence of a role blocker, we will never know for sure that Mirth is the doctor unless she is killed during the night or lynched.

The timing of the claim felt off and I really felt like she's had the newer players following her the entire game while making attempts to keep them aware that they should be a suspicious of her. [A possible set-up for a WIFOM argument later.]

I also felt that the lynch of Mega was because she voted Mirth. The flock looked at someone who was doing something that they thought was wrong because they all had pegged Mirth for town and bam! Mega is swinging as soon as she replaces in.


So excuse the EXTREMELY long post everybody and thank you for letting me join your game. But now it is time for the questions.

@Everyone except Bat and Mirth; Do you believe Mirth's claim and why?

@Bat,
Explain the CERTAIN time and why it makes Malex suspicious. [Posted twice, but this is the question section as it were.]

@ Malex, What do you think of my interpretation of your reasoning?

@Zeal, In your own words, explain the cases of anyone you are suspicious of at the moment.

@The Newer players, Do you feel that you've been following Mirth to closely? Be honest and learn from your mistakes. [DON'T ANSWER THIS QUESTION IN THE THREAD, just think about it. If you were to answer, scum would undoubtedly use it against you.]

@Grem, Who are you suspicious of and why?

[Mirth]

CR: i'm not sure I understand your whole post, but I have to say your accusations about people following me are off. I have spent the whole game saying not to do so. You cannot blame me for something I have been actively discouraging.

[ClockworkRuse]

The timing of the claim felt off and I really felt like she's had the newer players following her the entire game while making attempts to keep them aware that they should be a suspicious of her. [A possible set-up for a WIFOM argument later.]

I know.

[Gremwell]

Mirth's claim of doctor as it has been said is 50/50, but I'm leaning toward that the claim is true, not heavily mind you.

my reasons for this is been her play all game, in this game each person seems to be invested to varying degrees, and some rather than do their own scum hunting, wait for others to make an accusation, then chime in either for or against. It would have been very easy for Mirth to sit back D1 and let me get lynched. As for lynching the replacement I was acting out of self preservation not "flocking". Also for today lynching Batto wouldn't have been hard with Zeal and myself already voting.

As for who I'm suspicious of Batto, for what went on D1, Malex and merc for active lurking, Mirth for her claim, and you haven't been around enough for me to say either way, but everyone still.