Mini 645 - Innocence Falls (Game Over)

[Ectomancer]

vote goatrevolt

Goat's don't need a chair.

[Ectomancer]

@ nureins: Never joke-voted, never will. I'll vote soon enough, and it will be with purpose.

But thanks for asking.

Who's joke voting? I'm taking my vote seriously.

What do you hope your current vote placement will accomplish?

[Ectomancer]

cause he voted for the guy I wanted to vote for

I know it is almost a joke, but why didnt you yet vote for the guy you wanted to vote for ? two votes are far from being relevant...

Cause I figured it was a scummy thing to do, beating me to the punch and all..

Are you trying to avoid acting scummy so as not to draw attention to yourself?
Why would a townie be worried?

You find your self stuck to the carcass of what was a joke vote, now pummeled into glue. Lose 1 turn while you get yourself out of it.

[Ectomancer]

cause he voted for the guy I wanted to vote for

I know it is almost a joke, but why didnt you yet vote for the guy you wanted to vote for ? two votes are far from being relevant...

Cause I figured it was a scummy thing to do, beating me to the punch and all..

Are you trying to avoid acting scummy so as not to draw attention to yourself?
Why would a townie be worried?

You find your self stuck to the carcass of what was a joke vote, now pummeled into glue. Lose 1 turn while you get yourself out of it.

My point here is that, while even townies like to get out of the random stage and onto some good bandwagons, TPT is pushing this past its prime (hence the kicking the dead horse reference).
Since then he's come along with post 52, that feels like someone who has garnered more attention than he was after and isn't sure what to do with it.

It's getting time for someone to start squealing anyhow.

vote The Pope's Tiara

[Ectomancer]

Intially I read the whole thing as newbie like, but I need to meta game a bit to see if Pope really is new to the game.

Good, I expected that of you

(Ectomancer, noc noc, you are failing us )

If we dont do it quick, that game is gonna explode, so Ill try to follow you and comment back if you want...please try to ask me in a direct way, Im a bit busy these days so clear questions help...

I dont think I failed us, as he definitely squealed and we've had reactions to that. The self-vote shows a certain lack of fortitude, but I've not seen where that trait is more prevalent among scum than town.

However, I'm also not certain I am prepared to yield to Simenon's assessment of TPT either.

[Ectomancer]

Why are you trying to appear to gather information out of a series of irrelevant posts?

Why do you think those posts are irrelevant, because they are jokes? Meaningful stuff happens during the random phase, and people shouldn't be given a free pass to say whatever they want because it's the random phase.

Anyway,

Unvote

.

Right now I'm reading TPT's self-vote and sarcastic responses as townie frustration at a perceived unworthy bandwagon on him. The self-vote is poor play as both town and scum, but it seems like something that townies do more often than scum, regardless.

I feel like TPT is saying "You guys think you're so smart. We'll see how smart you really are when you lynch me and I'm town." That whole "prove you wrong" mentality is not a natural scum reaction, because nobody will actually be proven wrong.

I believe he said he wasn't inexperienced. Perhaps in his experience people are more likely to unvote someone who votes themselves, even while giving them grief over it.
Or perhaps not. I would not read that he is town out of his action though, not the way Simenon and yourself appear to have. I reserve my judgement on him, but he doesnt deserve to be lynched today, even without a claim yet.
Now, what is this Ythill business? I see random and OMGUS, but what is habitang on there for again?

[Ectomancer]

oh yes

unvote

[Ectomancer]

Well, I think not helping town is generally a scum-tell But yes, if there is no evidence on anyone, I think lynching the least helpful player is not a bad thing. It's the smallest loss for town, and he might just be scum... I much prefer evidence, though.

Ugh. This post contains my three least favorite words: "scumtell", "evidence", and "least-helpful"

You don't like evidence? That's gotta be some kind of a scumtell.

Dont muddy the waters.

Nurein has inferred Ectomancer as a voice of authority once too many times for me to trust his motivations. His voice is lending authority (and his vote) now to Cass, making her case seem stronger. Questionable player in my mind is Nurein.
Cass is not only pushing for information, but is now using popular opinion to push a lynch for Simenon. (this is momentum folks, Im not necessarily looking at votes)
Goatrevolt has the situation well assessed as near as I can tell.

I had no problems with Simenon's simple statement that TPT was town. I briefly considered asking him about it, but decided it was gut by him, and an invitation to have scum come sniffing around him looking for power roles/more info/etc.
I'm still uncertain about TPT myself (I think Simenon is too, but wanted to derail a quick lynch).
Cass and Nurein have moved to my top suspects at this point, and I'm more likely to believe that Nurein is pandering scum right now.

vote Nurein

[Ectomancer]

Allright. That sounds reasonable. And I have to be careful not to tunnelvision, especially this early in the game.

Unvote: Simenon

That was a quick reversal of course..

@nureins - yes I still find habitang suspicious. Many of his posts remind me of the way I've seen people play as scum. Throw stuff out there, see if another townie bits and runs with it, and the when the accused flips scum, someone else lead the charge. Also didn't like his statement about the self vote quoted below, where he inferred he didn't know who had done it or the modest reinforcement that it's a scum tell, that another unknown poster suggested. Just something very non commital about all of it..

Oh wow! This is like a SUPER game! So much posting, it is awesome compared to all the other games I've played!

LOL at whoever voted themself!

I did that last time and I was Townie so I can sympathyise a little, but at the same time, I don't really think you were pushed to the edge like me to pull out a self-vote. It is either really childish or

actually scummy as someone mentioned above, I think.

<snip>

That being said, I have to admit that this is mainly a visceral reaction and he could easily be looking for consensus/support before pressuring...

I looked up the game and he did self-vote, and he did turn up town. Clearly he was skimming the game, saw a self-vote, felt compelled to post because he had just done something similiar, but didnt really read much else. I dont see anything sinister in this post.

[Ectomancer]

infer
Verb
[-ferring, -ferred]
1. to conclude by reasoning from evidence; deduce
2. Not standard to imply or suggest [Latin inferre to bring into]
USAGE: The use of infer to mean imply is common in both speech and writing, but is regarded by many people as incorrect.

Where I'm from it's commonly accepted, besides, you have not yet established that scum are more likely to use infer, and town is more likely to use imply. Maybe while you're in that dictionary there, you should also look up the word logic.

[Ectomancer]

All I will say about the imply/infer situation is that he has a long row to hoe if he intends that to be a case against someone.

[Ectomancer]

With so many long posts and a lot of high noise/signal ratio (a lot of fairly meaningless points being discussed at length) I'm having a hard time picking out scum. I've been able to earmark a decent number of players as town thus far, but I'm hoping to be able to catch some idea of who is scum on a reread. I'm hoping to have a chance to do that tonight.

Agreed. Chaos is the agent of scum, and though walls of text can be useful at times, mostly it scatters the attention and causes people to lose focus. Arguing over semantics is also a scum tactic for being active.

[Ectomancer]

I'll agree that conciseness is the best possible posting style for the town. But I am not one to let points against me go unanswered. And I certainly don't think argument is "chaos".

A roomful of people all chattering away at great length on different topics certainly can be chaos. Even saved in a written format as it is, you still have a verbal ball of spaghetti to unravel. It causes things to be missed. That is indeed a form of chaos and an agent of scum. It is best to avoid discussions over semantics (just like this one)
Defend yourself, just dont get wrapped up in it. Quote pyramids suck.

[Ectomancer]

Agreed. Chaos is the agent of scum, and though walls of text can be useful at times, mostly it scatters the attention and causes people to lose focus.

THE agent of scum is silence. If you play the game without words, then lynching is probabilistic. The more information you have, the better for town. Now, if you want to add Chaos as a malign agent, that is ok, but it is AN agent, not THE agent.

If you are worried about chaos, ask ppl to summarize their scumhunting hints, opinions, etc, so you can follow the game AT THE SAME TIME that you spark discussions the more you can to have the more opinions you can have...

You claimed that this is the 2nd game of your life...ever. You can listen to the advice I am giving you or not. I'm telling you how scum can (and how I have in the past) manage the game to their advantage. Creating chaos in the chat, muddying the waters with arguments over semantics, prolonging discussion of misunderstandings between other players (especially townies) are all ways that scum can disrupt the scum hunting process of the town and hide in the morass.
Trying to take my point and trying turn it into a position that would state "discussion is bad" is ridiculous. Keep the discussion focused and we are more likely to be successful.

[Ectomancer]

-Simenon and Nureins have posts longer than John Holmes.

I haven't actually posted anything long. I don't think I gave more than a three sentence response for much.

Not atypical for you if I recall correctly.

[Ectomancer]

I dont know who this Goebels cat is, but I get the point of his strategy.

[Ectomancer]

Nuriens and Ythill, I think you're both now tunnelvisioning on eachother. A (perhaps starnge) request for the both of you: could you please each make a case on anyone that isn't the other? It would really help me compare.

@Ythill: yes, I dislike his 'Goebels' talk, and I dislike your misinterpreting and tunnelvision too. But he explained his actions well. And you both seem to be actively scum-hunting. I see bigger suspects than you two at this time.

QFT

[Ectomancer]

unvote

The water is too murky.

[Ectomancer]

unvote

The water is too murky.

If you have such a clean read, why dont you go ahead and give it?

[Ectomancer]

unvote

The water is too murky.

If you have such a clean read, why dont you go ahead and give it?

I did not claim to have one. However, I also didn't throw up my arms and say "WELP LOOKS LIKE THE WATERS ARE TOO MURKY CONTRIBUTE HERE."

That's a load of bullshit. I said nothing about giving up. I removed my vote because I no longer felt like my vote should be sitting on Nurein when I didn't feel confident about what is going on there.
The

REAL

problem I have with your statement is Pot, Kettle, Black.

Remember this?

Unvote

More later.

It's later.

[Ectomancer]

I was referring to your unvote followed by no follow up.

[Ectomancer]

habitang make good words

me no read them tho

too big for head, make it hurt

-------------------------------------------

Just kidding. I read them. I have a question for Ythill though:

Habit’s accumulated stance on scumhunting bothers me. He doesn’t like “taking it to the next level.” He doesn’t like arguments based on joke votes. He doesn’t like questions directed to specific people, or focused arguments, or multiple conversations happening at the same time. He doesn’t like arguments in general, or all-inclusive attacks, or using pressure to draw out slip-ups. He doesn’t like posts that don’t go deep enough, or posts that are too long. I suppose these could be honest peeves, but it seems odd that a townie would tell so many people to stop scumhunting.

This just feels like an ad hominem attack to me. There are so many accusations here that I believe few players would actually go back and see if Habit actually exhibited all of the behavior listed. In the case of the lazy, they might be inclined to assume all of it was true if they say a bit or two they

knew

to be accurate. Some of it I saw, but some statements look like opinion to me.
My question is: Do you think you maybe took it just a bit too far and would like to retract some of the things I consider more to be an opinion? Or can you actually point out all of these traits? (God help us reading that post if you can)

[Ectomancer]

I hate simulposts.

Our winning strategy is to lynch. Nobody can make the first day so chaotic that we cant come up with a good lynch. If you are unsure of the Nureins situation, move to a different target. It's ok. Go back and re-read or just flat out pick somebody, but a lynch is happening today.

[Ectomancer]

I had a weekend at SchlitterBahn, so I've been out and am beat. It looks like everyone is waiting around for Tritch to tell us why we aren't going to lynch him over TPT?

[Ectomancer]

I'm not interested in lynching Tritch at this point, but I'll hear what he has to say.

Not waiting for anything specific, just working long hours, got a date tonight, and tomorrow is poker night. I'll be able to poke my nose in for a moment like this, but don't expect any serious research.

Good.

[Ectomancer]

I noticed you're leaving out Cass, Goat.

Out of what?

The opportunistic club. I don't see why that necessarily has to refer to voting.

QFT.

I'm not getting that feeling from Cass though, unless you think she is using this meta she has as a blind she can use to justify not voting, but still enables her to takes shots from behind it. I'm not really getting that feeling either.

[Ectomancer]

I understand the function of your list, but I was making a point myself: if you're going to nail somebody for opportunistic behavior (which I don't oppose), I would naturally go for the person who isn't committing to a vote.

I disagree with the idea that a FoS is more opportunistic than a vote. Both can be opportunistic, but a vote actually furthers along the wagon. I feel much more confident going for the person who threw on additional meaningless reasoning to justify their vote, especially since Andycyca was in my top 3 prior to the habitang vote anyway.

I agree with Simenon on this one, or at least with the point he was making at the time. Goat's answer to it was fine.

[Ectomancer]

TPT was my 4th post and first vote out of the random stage. The unvote there is really no surprise. Lynching the first person you go after usually means you are going to have a short day. I prefer to build a wagon, see what people do, and move along, building reviewable material.

Well, I think not helping town is generally a scum-tell But yes, if there is no evidence on anyone, I think lynching the least helpful player is not a bad thing. It's the smallest loss for town, and he might just be scum... I much prefer evidence, though.

Ugh. This post contains my three least favorite words: "scumtell", "evidence", and "least-helpful"

You don't like evidence? That's gotta be some kind of a scumtell.

Dont muddy the waters.

Nurein has inferred Ectomancer as a voice of authority once too many times for me to trust his motivations. His voice is lending authority (and his vote) now to Cass, making her case seem stronger. Questionable player in my mind is Nurein.
Cass is not only pushing for information, but is now using popular opinion to push a lynch for Simenon. (this is momentum folks, Im not necessarily looking at votes)
Goatrevolt has the situation well assessed as near as I can tell.

I had no problems with Simenon's simple statement that TPT was town. I briefly considered asking him about it, but decided it was gut by him, and an invitation to have scum come sniffing around him looking for power roles/more info/etc.
I'm still uncertain about TPT myself (I think Simenon is too, but wanted to derail a quick lynch).
Cass and Nurein have moved to my top suspects at this point, and I'm more likely to believe that Nurein is pandering scum right now.

vote Nurein

This vote was for Nurein pandering.

I removed my vote because I no longer felt like my vote should be sitting on Nurein when I didn't feel confident about what is going on there.

I know at some point he had said this was only his 2nd game. After the lengthy exchanges, and the leeway I tend to give newbies, I couldnt be certain that he wasn't newbie town.

As far as not being anymore than a voice of reason, I'm consciously being much less aggressive in my playstyle, as I believe that can lead to tunnelvision at times, or dominate the discussion enough to allow scum to hide in the flurry. Having more of an observer role will probably improve my analysis game more than spearheading a charge all the time as I was used to do.

[Ectomancer]

Tritch is being replaced. As is Matin. It's been that way for... some time.

Makes the mods threat to replace me if I dont post a bit hollow.

I'm listening to the discussion right now. The main point on my mind is whether Simenon's opinion that Habitang was being fake is correct or not. If so, he is likely scum.

I've got 4 words for you long-winded MFers - half short, twice strong.

[Ectomancer]

I'm at page 7 now, and I must say that this game is very hard to read. People make very long posts and as of yet nobody strikes me as really scummy.

As of where I'm now, habitang looks reasonably town. I'm a bit torn on Ectomancer, IIRC he accused someone of taking away his authority...? And then there's Jahudo. For a very long time he didn't have his vote on anybody, which doesn't strike me as very pro-town either. I'd say he'd be the most scummy player so far, but I'm nowhere near convinced on that. Most people seem to be good players, and everyone's very vocal.

No, I accused Nurein of using me as a voice of authority once too often. Though you might take into account a players experience, experience doesn't dictate role or alignment. He shouldn't be using me, or any other player like that. You can agree with someone, but too often and your input becomes a "What he said" style that doesn't give the town that players own insights into the game, not to mention the feeling that they are aligning themselves with that more experienced player.
If you'll read further, Nureins is no longer following this habit.

[Ectomancer]

Well, you essentially said Put up or shut up, but you are right that the meaning is not the same.

[Ectomancer]

Drive-by lurking.

[Ectomancer]

Tunnelvision and plenty long winded bags of it.

vote Nureins

Fixed tags -Mod

[Ectomancer]

Tunnelvision and plenty long winded bags of it.

vote Nureins

[Ectomancer]

Im serious. Vote Nureins. Clear the clutter.

[Ectomancer]

27 page day 1. Let's kill someone.

[Ectomancer]

I have a first choice (

obviously

pacman) and a second choice (sirdan), but after that it all gets pretty arbitrary, right? I don't see the point in a ranked list.

Obviously?! What the...

I still don't have a list-o-scum, sorry. I will try to do it later. Lots and lots of stuff to read... >_<

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

27 page day 1. Let's kill someone.

That's scum-behaviour.
A long day 1 means lots and lots of info. Lots and lots of info means more possibilities to lynch scum. Ecto isn't posting at all, and he is trying to cut off discussion. That's scummy.

FoS: Ectomancer.

vote Pacman

"That's scummy behavior, blah blah blah. Im so town because I can repeat a favorite townie mantra"

Whatever. You need to die.

[Ectomancer]

That's the entirety of your reasons for voting me. Now meta reveals that I have done this recently as a town-friendly role, and that it worked in that game to catch scum (hence me using it again). Even my most adamant attacker said, "Anyway, yes, you did utilize 'LOL whatever scum' here, and you badgered a bit, so yeah you utilized that tactic here," but you say the meta doesn't change your view.

Okay. If you're town, I'd suggest rethinking here because a Ythill card-flip today will put you on the gallows tomorrow. You've got all of sirdan's emptiness without any of his slippery tricks to hide it in.

Your secondary suspicions are no better. An abandonned wagon from midday and an annoyance policy lynch? I wonder why you're coming off this way now, I thought you were pretty solid in the early game.

Personally, I don't give a shit. This game bores me to death. I have other games that keep my attention. I play for fun, not to nit-pick through 27 dry ass pages to appease anyone.

Do you support my someone needs to die bandwagon?

[Ectomancer]

I explained it when I voted. Reading comprehension FTW.

[Ectomancer]

If you understood it, shouldn't you respond to it?

[Ectomancer]

Nureins is fun.

[Ectomancer]

Hi Kuribo. And I saw Karne on the site today, so if you read this, Citizen karne: please come back and help us finish this day. I think this is one of the strangest games of mafia I've played yet. This whole compromise lynch is... different.

Agreed. I haven't been playing mafia all that long, but I've never seen anything like it.

I have played an entire game that was a consensus lynch game. It was odd, but it isn't necessarily a bad idea. The main problem with it is that scum can manipulate it if too much information is given, so I think order of scum list presented would matter quite a bit without an impartial observer helping (which of course we dont have).
To me, in effect, all lynches are unspoken compromise lynches unless they hard evidence behind the case.

[Ectomancer]

Me likey Kuribo.

[Ectomancer]

Good thing I've retired my aggressive playstyle for awhile. Every game needs a couple, but too many cooks in the kitchen as they say...

Nureins, you can see where my vote is. I could see where you might have town motivations in your analysis of the numbers where votes and such are concerned. I can also see how, as a result, you might be asking for those last 2 opinions in the manner that you have.
Here's the problem, even if you are town:

You have once again managed to ask a 'yes/no' type question, but even more you've created a type of false dilemma between pairs of players. I know you are trying to get this consensus thing together, but I dont like how you've created these head to head matchups. Even if you used a reason you didnt originally have influence over. The matchups were done

after

the vote tally accumulated. As long as that tally fit your design as scum (ie a couple townies are in the top), then you would have no reason as scum not to propose this the way you have.

So, I dont plan to answer your question as phrased. I'll rephrase it a bit and give some answer though. I'm unlikely to lynch Ythill today.

[Ectomancer]

What i don't get is how my being tired of this day is scummy, while for Ythill it isn't.

I'm not certain why my name would not be tossed into the hat as well. Why would both of you leave me out of that particular riddle?

[Ectomancer]

Ecto wants someone dead. (Agreed) Ythill puts together a list of who suspects who. Cass wants the day over. (I think it matters WHO we lynch, just so you know)

I went and got the quote in question from Kuribo. It looks like he is painting a fine line distinction. I'd like to hear elaboration on the distinction from Kuribo, and also your answer Cass, on why you left me out. Am I being egotistical about being overlooked? I thought my statements stood out.

[Ectomancer]

Here's the problem, even if you are town:

You have once again managed to ask a 'yes/no' type question, but even more you've created a type of false dilemma between pairs of players.

Im really confused here. I really do not see this false dilemma. I am not claiming that EITHER SIRDAN IS SCUM OR YTHILL IS SCUM. I just said that in a natural way, these two players were confronted somehow. The opinions over them are correlated. This is pretty clear in my case. The more I find sirdan scum, the more i find ythill townie, and viceversa. And I really perceive lot of people is having this views. You have plenty of examples around. I am sure that you agree with that idea, at least partially.

No, I don't. Let me try again to explain it using your statements:

I am not claiming that EITHER SIRDAN IS SCUM OR YTHILL IS SCUM.

Ok, so here you say that you are not claiming that either one is scum.

This is pretty clear in my case. The more I find sirdan scum, the more i find ythill townie, and viceversa.

Yet here, you set up the teeter-totter board on them. (The higher one goes up, the lower the other goes and vice-versa)

You see, it's a false dilemma of 'which is scum', when neither or both could be.

I really perceive lot of people is having this views. You have plenty of examples around. I am sure that you agree with that idea, at least partially.

If you mean that people agree with your teeter-totter view on Sirdan and Ythill, that is simply your opinion unless other players explicitly state it. You simply do not know why people are placing their votes where they are, even if they state it. (lying scum, gambiting town, etc) For all I know, Nureins, Sirdan, and Ythill are the scum. Nureins has decided he is going to be lynched regardless, especially after Kuribo showed up, and is setting up a false dichotomy between his 2 scum partners to facilitate a win later.
Do you see?
Please don't try to break down a case against you 3 being scum with quotes and crap. I'm not presenting it as a case, but as an example of why your actions are bad ones. Try viewing them through Suspicion Colored Glasses.

[Ectomancer]

Well, I still don't have an official list-o-scum. And I might as well not to have one of them. I don't want to be trapped into a misread from my own...

That's ok, I'm not certain that I care for them anyhow.

P.S. - people tend to want to lynch you if you are apologetic (in my experience). I think that both town and scum can be apologetic myself, and so think it is a null tell.

unvote

I considered leaving my vote on a bit longer, but am doubtful of getting returns on it. Still deciding who to hang after the positive flow of the latest conversation.

[Ectomancer]

It's cute the way nureins is trying to give me more evidence to put against him, but no. I have my reasons for suspecting him, and I don't really feel the need to unload them on the thread unless he moves up the ladder.

Lets try and do one thing at a time people and actually get this game moving somewhere.

Unless you have a tactical reason for keeping that case in your back pocket, I'd like it to see daylight now please.

[Ectomancer]

It's cute the way nureins is trying to give me more evidence to put against him, but no. I have my reasons for suspecting him, and I don't really feel the need to unload them on the thread unless he moves up the ladder.

Lets try and do one thing at a time people and actually get this game moving somewhere.

Unless you have a tactical reason for keeping that case in your back pocket, I'd like it to see daylight now please.

[Ectomancer]

Allow us to be the judge. Unless you have a better reason, I'd like to hear it today. What makes you believe you will be around later to tell us about it then?

[Ectomancer]

vote Darox

[Ectomancer]

Quit bickering you two.

[Ectomancer]

Nureins and kuribo can continue bickering for as long as they please, Ectomancer.

They can continue bickering and get nowhere. If kuribo is so damn hot to get on and lynch somebody, he could have simply posted the last statement and been done with it instead of dragging the crap out over an entire page.
Both of them stated they were making certain assumptions that flew over the head of the other.

Get. Over. It.

unvote

I doubt Darox is going to be budged by me without outside support.

vote Sirdanilot

How about letting them answer, Sir "I have to get this Pro-town statement in"?
Unfortunately for you, it isn't a Pro-town statement

at this juncture in a game

. Makes it better for you if they

do

bicker doesn't it? With town itching to lynch, it makes it just that much more likely that the focus will center on the top vote getters (one is you) and if you can get two town members to take up time bickering with each other, so much the better.

Need 3 more.

[Ectomancer]

How do you define "bickering"?

I view the topic of their discussion as being very relevant.

Both of them making certain assumptions (or assuming the other did), and then jumping on the other when they didn't examine the world through their assumption skewed view of the world. That's bickering.

[Ectomancer]

Sarcasm doesn't feel as good when you misspell "been".

Haha!

Anyway, I would like more time to talk about the choice between pacman and sirdan.

Ok, here is one of Ythill's thought's on the matter. The reason I post it is because I was thinking the same thing of Pacman's vote. I realize he could also be patient scum, or frozen into inaction trying to decide how to save his hide. It's a part of the reason I voted for Sirdan over Pacman, even though Pacman had more votes on him at the time.

People are voting, Cass. Except pacman which, considering the circumstances, is another suggestion of his alignment. With the deadline in place, scum pacman should already be voting for sirdan.

Anyway, to reiterate, I

will

hammer pacman @ deadline to avoid no lynch. However, I will be campaigning for a sirdan lynch until that time.

[Ectomancer]

Nureins and kuribo can continue bickering for as long as they please, Ectomancer.

They can continue bickering and get nowhere. If kuribo is so damn hot to get on and lynch somebody, he could have simply posted the last statement and been done with it instead of dragging the crap out over an entire page.
Both of them stated they were making certain assumptions that flew over the head of the other.

Yes, they can continue bickering and get nowhere. The content of that bickering won't give us any information, but the bickering itself may. If it's not pro-town to continue bickering, and yet they continue bickering, that gives us information. If you don't want them to bicker, lynch them.

There is a difference between an action that is not pro-town and an action that is scummy. You should know this. I don't lynch over an action that is not scummy.

You were a top vote getter before your statement. The deadline was not in consideration when referring to the juncture in the game that would precipitate your action.

[Ectomancer]

I agree with Kuribo

vote Darox

I dont think there is a clearer lynch candidate at this juncture.

[Ectomancer]

Kuribo, meet deadline

in two days

. You have experience with this site. You know good and well that 2 days is barely enough time to get a lynch. You also know good and well that a no lynch is not an option for us. You came into this game ranting about the length of day 1, yet now that a deadline is approaching, you are trying to stall. Wassup?

On your comments:

#1 - You are ignoring the last 38 pages in a rather large way. This wagon didn't rise 'suddenly'.
#2 - Continuing to say that Pacman is far more scummy without elaborating on it at this point is completely useless. What are you waiting for? The deadline?

Personally, I am far more interested in the people on Pacman's wagon than Darox's. Clearly there is a stalled push on that wagon. It looks to me like a scum driven wagon that failed to convince the town of its validity. You'll notice that I am lynching one of those 4.

[Ectomancer]

Kuribo, meet deadline

in two days

. You have experience with this site. You know good and well that 2 days is barely enough time to get a lynch.

Also, that is ordinarily the case, but as you can see, everyone was perfectly willing in the last page to throw their votes on Darox instead of pacman. It reeks of people protecting pacman.

One lynch at a time. It doesn't look to me as though town sentiment is on your side at this time, and unfortunately, that's all the time we have. Your extreme protest on this matter is noted. Let's continue on the not-yet-deadlined Day 2 shall we?

[Ectomancer]

I would expect you to hammer if it were going to no-lynch, yes. As for top vote-getter, I don't see you moving your wagon forward with new arguments on Pacman. I simply don't see town sentiment leaning that way. I also don't see another bandwagon forming and we are running out of time.
What is your suggestion? That we lynch Pacman? You've got less than 48 hours to try and mount a better case against Pacman and we need 7 votes. Do you think you can get 3 more? Honestly? I think you can given the number who have already stated a willingness to lynch either one today, but it will take convincing that you have not yet done.

[Ectomancer]

I went back and looked and I didn't see or remember a claim from either Darox or Pacman. Both of them need to claim ASAP, rolefishing be damned.

[Ectomancer]

I went back and looked and I didn't see or remember a claim from either Darox or Pacman. Both of them need to claim ASAP, rolefishing be damned.

Pacman claimed vanilla townie at L-3.

I didn't take that as a claim. I took as "I am townie'. That tells me nothing about his role. If he is claiming vanilla, I'd like to see 'vanilla'.

[Ectomancer]

Ectomancer: I'm a VANILLA townie. Happy now?

Happy? Not unless you've learned a lesson. This game revolves around what you say, and

how you say it.

The way you stated 'I'm a townie' leaves entirely open to you the possibility of coming back later and claiming a power role. (I just said I'm a townie, I didn't say I was a

vanilla

townie)
While there are definitely townie reasons to say they are townie in just that manner if you have a power role (hoping people will assume vanilla and move along, if they don't you can fully claim), it could also be a way to reserve a future fake claim as scum.
Now, the former is why I didn't bring up the point then that you didn't actually claim. The latter is why you needed to claim now, when your head is being demanded by a good sized faction.

The reason I bring all of this up is to show you why you needn't have been snippy and asking if I was happy now.

[Ectomancer]

I find your analysis interesting, Ythill, because I see no greater phony in this thread than habitang. His posts, particularly his outbursts, are loading with a disturbing amount of drama, all of which seems pretty faked.

You know, I just didn't agree really that it was obvfake. It's your gut though that you have to depend upon there, and you could easily be right. My gut just didn't clinch there.

[Ectomancer]

Relax Kuribo. Darox was scummy. So was Pacman. The town took care of them both. Remember that somone you may be currently berating could have sent in that kill, while you spend time trying to convince them again how scummy pacman was. Hey, he was scummy, you get a gold star. Going back and telling everyone how stupid they were is an overblown ego and counterproductive. Clearly, at least one person wasn't so stupid after all.

[Ectomancer]

YOU ARE DEAD. STOP POSTING UNLESS YOU WANT TO BE BANNED FROM PLAYING (at least in my games).

[/list]

[Ectomancer]

Mod, that entire post should be removed.

[Ectomancer]

Im back from a week in the hospital and will be catching up as soon as I can. I need the important cliff notes. Are we on deadline? Who are we trying to string up? Also, give me time to tell you who it should be instead. Im off the next 2 weeks and will be able to spend a few hours catching up.

[Ectomancer]

Ok, no deadline = good. Was some jerk asking for one?

2nd, Nureins needs to die. I'm not convinced he is scum, but he still needs to die.

Simenon should not be lynched.

Jahudo and Ythill? Meh. Nureins makes a better lynch.

Darox is going to die.

[Ectomancer]

P.S. - Kuribo needs some investigation for possibly bussing Pacman.

[Ectomancer]

Quick response:

Lots of people said: "Blah blah blah, you cant do this, you cant do that"

I'm directing the cop and the Vig/SK. You'll just have to deal with it. You want more answers? I'm not interested in providing them. Lynch Nureins.

vote Nureins

Someone said that should be L-1. Get on with it.

[Ectomancer]

Hmmm. Let's ponder this a bit shall we? I have information that needs sorted out as well. The question now is who reveals what and when?
It's time to contemplate a mass claim and sort out all the sordid details.

Anyone else in?

[Ectomancer]

As has been stated, it is no surprise that my role is Vig.

Day 1 was a split between Darox and Pacman. I hate going into Day 2 debating whether to kill the 'other scummy player', so I shot Pacman.
Nureins was muddying the waters so thickly that he had to be lynched Day 2, regardless of whether he was town or scum. If you research me, you'll know that is one of my personal scum tells.
My statement about killing Darox was a calculated one. After Pacman was shot, it was clear that we had an SK/Vig floating around. My question was whether I would be allowed to kill him or not. However, I did not target him last night, instead I targeted Sirdanilot. Doc claim, not killed, and I wanted to kill off a questionable player. I would also still gain information. If I was roleblocked, it was likely Darox as a roleblocker, or we have an 8:4 setup and Darox is very likely mafia and a mafia roleblocker saved his hide.
Anyhow, yeah, I could be an SK. That's really not a concern today, as I can be killed when we are down to 3 players and town wins. (me too to Ythill, I hunt scum early and try to maintain a balance afterwards)

So, what to do? My first inclination was to lynch Darox, but there is a bit of a problem (despite his horribly unbelievable claim).

Here's the problem, you never, ever, should base a lynch upon trying to outguess the mod. It is my impression that one of the first things you do when designing a game is to prevent a Day 1 mass claim from breaking things. If we had done that, and both were telling the truth, we would likely lynch either Darox or Simenon, and then the other if/when the first turned up town. As a mod, I would sit back and chuckle as you tried to outguess me and lynched 2 pro-town power roles.

Now, I am 99% certain that Darox is a roleblocker, Simenon I'm not sure. I haven't looked at his targets and results deeply yet. We've got some leeway and a very good chance of playing this out.

So, we'll get into the details, but of this I am certain: Sirdan should protect

me

. I kill as town directs. If we have a mafia roleblocker, they either have to block me to save their hide, or we win when I kill them. Despite my earlier concerns, I would say lynch Darox and I kill Simenon tonight. That would account for myself and the 2 roleblockers. Ythill then tracks someone of his choosing to see if anyone is out where they should not be. That should leave us either 6 or 7 players left tomorrow with good information or a win.
If we still haven't won, and I am suspected SK, and we have only 6 players (which means our remaining scum somehow got a kill), we can either lynch, get another night kill by me (leaving 4) and if scum somehow manages to slip the net AGAIN (highly doubtful), then we would be left with a 1-1-1 situation. Instead of that, we could also no lynch, and use my kill at night, making sure that total player numbers remain high.

Thoughts?

[Ectomancer]

EBWOP: I think my plan is much better than yours Ythill, especially when you consider that I am easily killed in end game with only 2 remaining town members. We've got far better numbers than that right now, and if I wasn't 95% convinced that you weren't simply guessing on the targeting last night, you would be very high on my suspect list.

[Ectomancer]

So yeah you guessed my target right, that gives us a good reason to think you are town...

No it doesn't. It means I am either scum or a tracker. Really, it tells you nothing about me that isn't apparent from my claim. See, if you're the doc, I could know that you targeted kuribo because I could be scum who tried to kill him. I'm not, but it's a distinct possibility from your point of view.

What my claim

does

confirm is that you are the doc (unless one of the last two people claims doc who protected kuribo). It also confirms kuribo as town. See, either he was protected from the NK or Ecto is scum who got blocked targeting someone else. Either way, kuribo is

not

the last scum.

Unless you believe this was a 4:8 setup with Ecto and kuribo as buddies, which is extremely unlikely.

Hello? What do you mean guessing on what targeting? Quite irritating for people to conveniently forget what they just said.

I dont care of your hairs are standing on end or not, in fact, that very statement gives you another notch on the scum meter if you understand anything about SK's and the numbers game.

There is absolutely no reason at all to confirm my alignment today. In fact, I am becoming even more suspicious as you try to limit the town's options to only being able to lynch and remove our ability to also kill at night.

My plan is definitely superior to yours and explained, with actual numbers and scenarios why that it is. Obviously that is up to town to decide, but I cant think of anyone except scum that would want to remove both roleblockers

and

the Vig/SK, leaving yourself as a claimed tracker to incriminate whomever you wish.
With my plan, the roleblockers are tested, town retains an additional way to remove suspects, and still has plenty of time to kill me off. I explained how the net will work to trap scum. I stated that you should be left to choose who to track, but I think that keeping an eye on our masons would not be a bad move.

I now expect you to further justify your proposal. If you are scum, we lynch me today, you turn in a no kill tonight, putting suspicion on both roleblockers, meaning we lynch one of them tomorrow, you kill the next night, we lynch the other roleblocker the following day and we are down to 5 players. You then cast suspicion on the Masons (because who knows if they are really confirmed?) getting one of them lynched, you kill at night, then implicate the other mason as a 'tracker' and win the game as scum.

Sorry, I will do everything possible to stop your plan. Let's see how good you are at guessing. You might have gotten lucky the first time, but let's see how good you are at guessing who Sirdan will target

tonight

. Make your own choice Sirdan, protect who you will and let's test our 'tracker' as well as our roleblockers. I think that my numbers show that even if I am an SK, I have almost no chance of winning, while I've outlined your path to victory as scum very explicitly.

[Ectomancer]

It's interesting to me that you ask us to take your alignment at face value. Not a very townie thing to do.

What are you about here Ythill? It's very clear that I have not asked the town to take my alignment at face value. I said very clearly that it isn't important

today

, and the reason is that I am very easily controlled regardless of alignment, and can easily be taken out at a later point. Right now I am a very good tool for the town, and not using me, whether you know my alignment or not, is certainly anti-town.
The one thing you said that is correct is that I don't give up. In fact, if you look, you can find a game where I actually claimed SK and continued to try to somehow pull off a win or tie. (I've taken it as a personal affront before when someone said I was 'giving up')

Anyhow, Goat's reply reminded me that your 'guess' wouldn't have been a guess at all, meaning you could absolutely be scum. (yes, I know you mentioned it earlier)

As for the 'fairy tale'? If I were in your position and scum, I could definitely pull that one off. I certainly would say the same for you. Regardless of Jah's simple 'yes' statement, the wording of mason PM's to confirm/not confirm your partner's alignment varies from mod to mod. It would be very easy to cast enough doubt to get him lynched, especially if you are not forced to 'prove' your tracking ability a time or two more. In point of fact, as expressed earlier, my underlying concern is that the mod threw in 2 pro-town roleblockers as mod-bait when 2 were exposed.

If you and our first RB lynch both come up town... and the second RB is town... it will be obvious to him that I am scum and he will RB me. Not to mention have a good chance of getting me lynched when that N4 no kill is revealed.

No. I've had too many games with confirmed/unconfirmed masons and the

players themselves

misinterpreting what exactly the mod was saying, and what he was not. One of my RL friends got caught with his pants down when he

assumed

that his partner was town along with him. (you see why Im saying that nailing both masons, combined with your tracker 'confirm', is hardly a fairy tale?) No kills mean very little when scum can simply not kill in order to set someone up. Scum doesnt need to NK at all if they can manipulate the lynch to suit their needs.

Obviously Im coming from 2 fronts here. 1 is that you could very well be scum. 2 is that your assumptions and method of elimination could cost us should one of the masons be the remaining scum.

Anyhow, enough bickering. I like the plan as Goat laid it out and I'm glad that you agree to it. Let's lay the cards and see what the future holds. I think with today being a bit of an extended weekend, we need another day or two to get rest of the input from everyone else.

[Ectomancer]

I dont get why we are choosing Simenon today. My feeling, and Goat's review indicates that Darox is the more likely scum.

[Ectomancer]

I dont get why we are choosing Simenon today. My feeling, and Goat's review indicates that Darox is the more likely scum.

Because Darox claimed to have blocked your vig kill, in my mind, it gives his claim more weight.

I think I mentioned that as well, but at the time I hadn't gone back and looked at Simenon closely. Town sentiment looks like we kill Simenon today and I go for Darox while he roleblocks me. Sirdan protects somebody and Ythill will tell us who he protected tomorrow.

Whenever you all are ready.

Anything else Simenon? Look for cracks and please give your opinion. I realize that if you are scum, you are hardly motivated to do so, but if town, we need your experience.

[Ectomancer]

Honestly, does it matter? Follow the Goat plan. I endorse it. I do wonder, though, why I would counter Darox when it would seem better for a scum just to claim townie. But that's all for posterity's sake.

And I don't think you need protecting Ecto.

True, and true. I think either Darox or Ythill are the remaining scum. With me going after Darox, he cant kill me, and Ythill would have to guess at Sirdan's choice if he chose to kill (and he would clear Darox by killing). The best Ythill could hope for is to no kill tonight, putting Darox in the sights tomorrow, then try to go back to the Ecto as SK theory, which would turn up incorrect, then somehow try to get someone other than himself lynched.
I think at this point Kuribo, Goat, and Sirdan are almost definitely confirmed? If after all of this, we still haven't found scum, we need to arrange for those 3 and the masons to be alive during the day, and those 3 make sure to lynch masons until we win.

[Ectomancer]

But Simenon and Darox always play like that.

Nhat's silence was uncharacteristic.

I dont know about Nhat, but the first statement I can support.

[Ectomancer]

vote Darox

I think no NK was because I forced his hand into roleblocking instead of killing :ego:

[Ectomancer]

Let's WIFOM ourselves into paralysis! That would be so much fun!

[Ectomancer]

Both roleblockers are slated for termination anyhow. If there is a NK tonight, we don't assume that scum cant do both actions and keep going with the plan. As I said, what's important is getting down to 5 players during the day, with Goat, Kuribo and Sirdan along with the masons so that they can kill off the masons if necessary.
One thing is certain, chasing our tails is STILL not going to tell us what will happen tonight

until we do it

.

Actual scumhunting Ythill? Waiting until page 52 to do it?

[Ectomancer]

I just want to note that I'll be willing to be lynched just so that we can follow the fucking plan.

I still say Darox or Ythill, though Im leaning towards Ythill as he tries to toss out the last few pages of discussion for "actual scumhunting".

[Ectomancer]

Clearly I was mocking you.

Something to hide? Im pretty rock solid as either a Vig or an SK. I'm much more concerned about what you have to hide. How about you examine Nurein's posts and my statements about him. Remember muddying the waters? That's what I see going on right now. It was started by our Doc, but you leaped right on the pony didn't you?
I tell you what happens when things get overly dragged out. Town gets tired of the crap and are willing to just lynch somebody, ANYBODY, just to get things moving.
I place Simenon's last statement as evidence #1.
I'll tell you exactly what needs to happen: You, me, and both roleblockers need to die, but I swear you are convincing me more and more that it only needs to be you to win the game.

[Ectomancer]

Excellent game town.

My night 1 killing of Pacman was influenced both by my stated reasoning of not going into day 2 arguing over whether to lynch the 2nd most scummy player of day 1, as well as Kuribo's arguments against him.
Nureins I chose to lynch for muddying the waters. I believe that to be a fine scum tell, though sometimes its certainly an opinion.
I decided to taunt DaroxB with the "Darox is going to die" to see whether I would be roleblocked (and to softclaim), Sirdan my actual target because I believe not every town has a Doc, and I thought him next scummiest, plus if I got blocked, he was likely

not

scum and would be 99% verified for me.
Once I was blocked, and no night kill occured, I felt Darox was almost certainly scum. Darox, could you have also submitted a kill? If so, why didnt you?
For the rest, I simply kept a healthy dose of suspicion and tried to keep us away from false assumptions about anyone.
Also, I was very serious about getting the day down to the 5 players I mentioned so that we could eliminate the masons a well if need be.
@Goat - yes, I had planned to ask the mod if I could self-target if need be to arrange for Goat, Kuribo, and Sirdanilot to be in a final showdown against the masons without worrying about an SK in the mix.

I personally felt that this was my best game as town, with the majority of my hunches being on track.

Good playing with you all