Mini Normal 2168 | So Many Bats! | Game Over!

[duppin]

where I said I got slight town vibes from her "fire" towards BM

GUYS DUPPIN IS SCUM

does not warrant a TR. aggressiveness isnt alignment indicative. you're finding very stretched reasons to read people here.

That's a really bad read.

[duppin]

Massclaim: yay or nay?

why does mafia doc = not a good idea to massclaim btw?

Because it could indicate there is a vigi around

[duppin]

That's a really bad read.

I was using that to reference how you basically TR'd aggressiveness which is not alignment indicative at all, and

Noraa tunnels more as scum from my shallow metadive

forced reasons to TR scumbuddy? Check.

Yes and it is a terrible read. Why would I feel the need to throw a tr on a partner? She came across as very passionate to me when discussing with BM like being annoyed at BM calling out her friendship with you. I liked the fire of her tone and thought it felt slightly townie. I was clearly wrong but it is what it is.

pedit:

if we had a vigi why do we have no double kills

I do not know.

[duppin]

meh

I think im just going to end up paranoid and/or afraid if we elim today, best play is to no-execute, but scum has no incentive to kill either

Sure they have as there could still be TPRs around.

[duppin]

Okay we should not massclaim today

[duppin]

for what it is worth i think it is perfectly fine to lim today, but i would personally prefer not to simply due to me being very concerned about some of my reads so reducing the pool would obviously help with that

[duppin]

We either no launch, or massclaim if we're launching. You always massclaim before a launch that could potentially end the game.

Optimal play here would be no launch, you should always no launch on even numbers, even if you have no PRs - I feel pretty strongly about this as a standard practice thing. Even though it might mean I probably just get killed, I don't mind because I'm sick right now (got covid again), so I'll be on low power mode.

I actually think it is a little more complex than that. I think if there is a universal townread or someone who is pretty much conf town or something like that then it is (generally) better to go for a lim, but when there isn't then I think it is better to skip. I do not believe there is anyone at this point with a strong presence or someone I trust enough to be capable of leading town which is why I said that this might mainly be for selfish reasons but I prefer not limming anyone simply because I want the pool to be reduced.

Now as the for town leader I will also say this: I feel that this was how you played day 1 especially earlier on hectic. It felt to me like you were trying to control town and as I thought your posts were really townie I thought it was fine to let you take that role but I feel you have dropped a bit off - you're not really trying to push in a direction but has more so just commented on stuff and asked questions but there is a lack of push I think which concerns me because it kind of goes against my initial day 1 read of your playstyle and makes me fear a deep wolf. This might not be totally fair but I just can't shake this feeling; if you are town I expect you to try to take a more leading role today

[duppin]

Also I hope you feel better as soon as possible and I obviously understand that it might affect your play

[duppin]

Sometimes the UTR turns out to be a wolf though, which is why it's always optimal to no launch. I just had a large game in mylo where I convinced everyone to no launch because I wasn't sure about the person everyone thought was town, and lo and behold, they didn't die in the night and claimed a guilty on me (I was town). I got mislaunched but at least we stood a chance there rather than losing for sure in the mylo.

It does but usually games like these are already lost at that point anyway, but yeah point is it can be a bit more complex but probably not worth talking about

I've felt burnt out and less enthusiastic about mafia across the whole site, duppin, so don't associate changes in my motivation with being relevant with my alignment, because it really isn't.

that could definitely be true and as I also said I do feel like it might be unfair for me because it could be me pushing you into a role you perhaps werent looking for

I was thinking shelly and Plus for a bit there because of shelly's contrast in treating dave's L-1 vote and Plus's hammer, and her heavy defence of him here, but then I reminded myself of the shelly and Jacko interactions which are just never SvS £_£
Still want to hear reasoning from you though, shelly.

I went over shelly and noraas interactions last night because bugs pushed shelly+noraa, however to me at least it does not really feel like partner behaviour but it is possible i just dont know how to read all the spam.

i have the slight benefit of knowing i am town though so from my point of view i know assuming its a 3 man scum team that 2 mafia voted on Mundivore but the problem is that pretty much all of the votes/behaviour around the votes look pretty bad so its difficult for me to read into it

[duppin]

Regarding plus I need to look this up but I did try to start a wagon on him day 1 and I recall noraa defending him several times by calling him mislimbait and saying his play was standard "plusiness" or something like that. I can't remember exactly how it went down so I might be misremembering it, so i'll try to find it

[duppin]

btw this is wifom and its meaningless but i still like to say it, there is no way i would ever kill bugs after they said i was lock town for them

[duppin]

okay so i found it, this was when i started a wagon on plus

im going to do this for now actually
VOTE: PlusJOYED

norwee and tayl0r immediately follow up with a vote each, noraa then posts this:

should we claim the masons right now? i get the feeling we got masons

what in the fuck. don't fucking out more prs.

VOTE: bugs
VOTE: bugs

I don't give two shits if we have masons but don't ask them to out wtf

and as tayl0r points out in 2170, it was a weird progression

I think it is possible noraa was deflecting. She did not acknowledge the wagon we started at all and instead immediately voted elsewhere for very questionable reasons

[duppin]

dave then catches up, but does not acknowledge the plus wagon either in 2177

Norwee what's the best wagon today besides plus?
I don't want a plus lim today. I haven't yet determined if I think he's LHF here or scum here.

this looks questionable as well in hindsight

[duppin]

i keep going back to the dave/plus being the last two and it really is the most simple solve i think but does feel a bit too easy, but this is definitely wher i am at

[duppin]

obviously this isnt the case from your point of view, but plus + you is a possibility as well actually

[duppin]

PlusJoyed you scumread Tayl0r. Wanna join this wagon? It seems better than Redados.

No this is stupid. Theres literally no lim better than Redados today however if I was required to choose a different wagon ... I could prolly think about compromising on Taylor.

okey. i haven't done a full analysis on taylor but grendel was sus af

UNVOTE: red
VOTE: taylor

Plus: comes in, votes the biggest wagon, Redados
When people start shifting wagons, he jumps to a Taylor wagon with literally no reason.

VOTE: Plus

Ik in general ur considered easy limbait but I want to put pressure on u for flipflopping. Please defend your actions to prove you are town. Yes I am hesitant to vote u and shit cuz I been wrong about u before but I want an answer bc this one really isn't reading hot.

currently going through noraas iso and realised that she actually voted on plus earlier on

[duppin]

I also think there's some subtle pocketing going on with "I'm struggling to think the solve is joy + dave" as well, likely from duppin.
Identifying hectic as the "town leader", and trying to push an idea to him for a mislim while being open to whatever seems very much like a scum mentality. I think duppin has a high chance of being scum

what?

[duppin]

@Hectic talk to me about shelly and noraa. I was reading through noraa's ISO again i noticed something that while Noraa was calling shelly scum, she never voted on her. Not only that she responded to a lot of the votes on shelly and ended up defending while also calling her scum, eg:

VOTE: shellyc

I have an operating theory that opportunistic wagoning is one of shelly's scumtells. The source of this theory is that when other people do it, she calls them scummy.

The fact that she applied her vote to the Redados wagon to make it 'actually useful' without much additional reasoning and didn't do the same on the saudade wagon smells off to me.

did she call it scummy when she was town or scum? If scum, this logic doesn't apply cuz scum make up all their reasoning since they know who the scums are

@redados so you're null on taylor?

noraa's subtly shading me
what if this whole thing redadosvnoraa was scum theatre

VOTE: Noraa

I kinda think noraa's scummier than redados based off the reactions, noraa just seems insincere moreso than redados. i think redados IIOA is still scummy. considering scum theatre possibility

Scum theatre my ass.
VOTE: ShellyC

LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOO I actually love this. However as I've said before ... shelly plays weird. I have a hard time reading her. I feel like she just gives off scummy vibes no matter her alignment. Idk when it comes to reading her, I seriously dont know.

Scum theatre my ass.
VOTE: ShellyC

ok you're wrong

this sounds lots like one of ur posts from doggos when someone called u scum

My current scum team I think is:
Shelly
Redados
Norwee/bugspray

plus this was the scumteam she gave, 3 of them are now confirmed town. Generally i'd say you can usually expect scum to put at least 1 teammate there for distancing but there is no guarantee of that and seeing as noraa is a pretty new player she might not be comfortable enough in doing so

theres more than this, when someone suggested it could be scum theater noraa felt the need to point out how absurd that was several times:

No I think it would be to get me off ur tail. The reason is that anyone that assumes Shelly and I ended up both rolling scum again has to be a low-key delusional townie that wants the pieces that clearly don't fit together to fit together. You saying you ruled out the possibility just makes u sound more town cuz the probability of that happening is literally god knows how low. And considering a possibility that is literally so damn small definitely looks town imo. But then I'm kinda like mmm what if scum!redados is trying to change my mind with this bc he knows I overthink the shit outta everything and anything?

+ post 1259, 1263, 1264, 1266

so i dont think this means shelly is necessarily scum, but i know several of you have more experience with both noraa and shelly so i would like to hear opinions on this.
however my take is that while noraas behaviour is really odd, shelly's isn't. Her push feels way more natural to me. I think a possible explanation for noraas behaviour could simply be because as i stated above that she is a relatively new player so she might not be that comfortable by pushing against a really aggressive player like shelly - I mean she did call her out several times but she never actively tried to wagon her and did some slight defense of her while also calling her scum, which to me does come across a bit as her not wanting to push shelly directly because she isnt comfortable with it.

[duppin]

@davesaz I really need to hear more from you. If we are limming anyone today then I believe it should be you. You haven't really made any proper associations this game which I think is extremely suspicious as I expect town to naturally form them when attempting to gamesolve, so this to me indicates that you have been in the backseat for most of the game. Also as I stated before I have a hard time believing that you did not have any chance to explain your read on Mundivore yesterday when you put out a naked vote and I would still like you to explain the read

[duppin]

noraa hates bussing. I'm not suprised her scum team is all town slots

yes my initial impression of her is that she dislikes bussing as well. these are the players she voted on:

redados, tayl0r, bugs and you. 3 of them are already confirmed town.
I do believe her initial vote on you does give you some town cred

[duppin]

sorry i meant bm not tayl0r

[duppin]

dave then catches up, but does not acknowledge the plus wagon either in 2177

In what world is it surprising that I spent all my energy figuring out the two claims that had happened? This observation seems to be coming from a direction of expecting a pairing and trying to find it vs. not knowing.

Pedit: it's a work day.

Yes that is possible, I was simply making an observation

[duppin]

Massclaim: yay or nay?

why does mafia doc = not a good idea to massclaim btw?

Because it could indicate there is a vigi around

If the purpose of the doc was purely to partially nerf the gunsmith then there may not be a vig at all. Seeing no unexplained deaths lends credibility to a no vig scenario, though I suppose something outlandish like a night specific with a high night number is possible. Normal design has tended toward those kinds of unusual setups.

that is definitely a possibility as well i agree

[duppin]

Okay I've been thinking about this and I think this is the right move atm...

The Revelation!

the reason why I'm currently town on plus is because

I have a GUILTY result on duppin

, and I know the world they're pushing is at least halfway correct.

I am a

Town [REDACTED]

. I am an investigative and may or may not be gated with one incriminating result (on duppin) and no clears. I can think some instances however that this result occurs when I check a town. I'm not claiming the exact investigative until duppin claims as to give a scum!duppin less information to make their fakeclaim.

@duppin, please claim now.

no you dont have anything (unless i was somehow a miller but that doesnt line up with your claim) and honestly if you are town then i really disapprove of fakeclaiming like this in mylo because it could so easily backfire.
even if i had been scum i am pretty sure i would have realised this was a fake claim

[duppin]

i keep going back to the dave/plus being the last two and it really is the most simple solve i think but does feel a bit too easy, but this is definitely wher i am at

we were brought to mylo for a reason

the solve that is dominant in lylo / mylo is usually the solve SCUM want you to reach

thats not really how it works. even if we knew the exact scum team before hand, they would still end up nking someone leading us to a specific state. dont use wifom like this to clear people.
I agree with the notion it is too simple which is why i am trying to evaluate every slot, but you shouldnt clear them out of principle

[duppin]

Is this all you have to comment on Dave? What are your scumreads now?

NGL, it's hard reset time. I'm going to run out of lunch break time soon and it's gonna take a shitton of reading to do that reset.

please feel free to share your thoughts a long the way because what i am really missing from you is understanding your thoughtprocess

[duppin]

by the way shelly if you are town then its important that you retract your claim relatively soon

[duppin]

I've played 3 games now with scum shelly, all 3 she pushed me fairly hard.

so you think her not pushing on you today makes her town based on that?

[duppin]

i honestly expected more to happen, i hate to throw out reads like this but i noticed hectic has been active on the site yet not chimed in here. its not necessarily alignment indicative but i would lie if i said it doesnt affect my read on you a tiny bit

[duppin]

i need to sleep now but i will get back to this but yes shelly if you are town then i hope you understand why you have to retract the claim as soon as possible because otherwise the day is stalling and youre pushing it into a tvt.

if youre scum then do whatever you feel like but i will consider it to be a scum claim if you do not retract it

[duppin]

shelly, do you retract or stand by your claim?

VOTE: duppin
duppin claim now

im apathetic, this has been stalling

I bus too much by the way. i dont hard defend partners

okay i assume you stick to your claim, which makes this a lot more simple actually

[duppin]

yeah
VOTE: no elimination
rn im at duppin/uno being the solve. I reconsidered dave and I think his predecessor was pretty townie, I think his catchup struggle is genuine, and the vote on mundi was extremely risky given his standing
duppins recent posts regarding shellys invest result is pretty panicky too.

plus if you are town then you really need to revaluate how you read people as your read seem to be based on conf bias because you believe shelly is town and you believe i am scum. there was nothing panicky about my reaction. If you are town then you are really being pocketed. I think you need to ask yourself why you townread shelly and why you scumread me independently instead of being pushed into reads. If you still reach the same conclusion it is what it is

[duppin]

okay so seeing as shelly seems to commit to her claim, it should honestly be rather obvious that this is a fake claim

Okay I've been thinking about this and I think this is the right move atm...

The Revelation!

the reason why I'm currently town on plus is because

I have a GUILTY result on duppin

, and I know the world they're pushing is at least halfway correct.

I am a

Town [REDACTED]

. I am an investigative and may or may not be gated with one incriminating result (on duppin) and no clears. I can think some instances however that this result occurs when I check a town. I'm not claiming the exact investigative until duppin claims as to give a scum!duppin less information to make their fakeclaim.

@duppin, please claim now.

first of all she has not claimed what her role is or what her result is, but she claims she could think of a reason "this result might be town". There is nothing about my role and it should be fairly obvious due to my reaction what my role is actually, that should lead her to believe it is scum no matter what her role is. It looked like an obvious reaction test due to the vague and careful claim

however now she seems to claim that i am "conf scum" without elaborating on her claim, this is an inconsistensy that honestly makes no sense. also if I was confirmed scum to her, why would my claim even matter?

sigh we have to elim today

i'll tell you why
im a Night 3 investigative

we wont be closer to solving if we no elim and I just die, it brings us into lylo with duppin confscum, then 3p lylo with probably {plus UNO davesaz}

these are also super questionable because as plus just said it should be obvious that if shelly was indeed a tpr and i was scum then it would not make any sense for me to lim her in the night
the "night 3" investigative claim is also convenient in the sense it means that she does not need to provide any other results

[duppin]

lol shelly, i said i could only be miller which i thought was unlikely for you to have any kind of result on me

[duppin]

in other words there is nothing else i could have done that could lead you to believe i was scum which was why I said it was a fake claim.

Anyway this is actually a bad fake claim as scum

[duppin]

lol shelly, i said i could only be miller which i thought was unlikely for you to have any kind of result on me

are you the fucking track miller

I don't think you understand

I am saying the only way you could have any result that could make you believe I am guilty no matter what your role is is if I was miller which in other words should make it really obvious what role i am

[duppin]

when I am saying you could not have any reason to believe I was scum unless I am miller I am also stating that I have not visited anyone or done anything at all that that could suggest i would be scum.

You are claiming I visited someone. So are you hard commiting to your claim?

[duppin]

uh i think shelly just said that she is going to kill hectic, i dont want to townclear him for that because it could be a wifom play especially if he does not die, but does certainly give him some town cred

for what it is worth killing hectic would be absolutely idiotic for me to do if i was scum since: i have thrown shade at him and more importantly he seems to believe me over shelly

[duppin]

also "when i die" is honestly jsut a fun thing to say since if you were town then you know you would never be killed, so youre just saying it to make it more believable

and now claiming that hectic would be the best kill for me when he obviously would not just comes across as you wanting to put shade on me because you want to kill him

[duppin]

Anyway, I do still believe UNO is town. I still the same read and I was expressed my disapproval of people putting UNO into the solve based on noraas flip. I think his ISO is really town.

I initially thought plus was likely to be scum especially after observing noraas behaviour when I started the wagon on him, but then I later noticed that noraa did in fact vote on plus earlier which gives him slight cred mainly because I feel noraa only voted on town.
Add to the fact that after reading the doggos game I also noticed that noraa seems to like to defend townies that are being defended for relatively questionable things (in fact she kind of did the exact same thing to plus in that game), she seems to paint him as town due to "plusiness", being mislim bait and whatnot. Could eb used to defend a partner in theory, but to me it feels more like an attempt at towncred + potential pocketing. I also believe the fact that he questions the claim and pushes for a no lim is fairly town as well, albeit this is obviously slightly biased to me knowing that shelly is scum.

Hectic is a weird one as I said my concern was that he was deepwolfing which is admittedly still a possibility, but with shellys comment before I'm feeling slightly better about that slot actually.

dave is an obvious candidate as i mentioned before the biggest issue about dave is that he simply hasn't formed any associations which I do believe is a scumtell.

[duppin]

sorry for the typos doing it on phone is a bit iffy. also i obviously meant that noraa seems to like to defend townies that are potential mislim bait by coming up with weird reasoning

[duppin]

Could be to save dave but could also just be her trying to go for the win. Her treatment of plus leading up to the claim does to me feel like pocketing so could be an attempt at making sure she thought she had enough support to go for the claim

but her claim itself and the logic she has used since just makes it a bad claim. I actually thought she might still have been trying to do a reaction test hence asking her if she was hardclaiming because the claim was and i dont mean this in a disrespectful way, but it was just not a good claim at all

[duppin]

I'm actually thinking we should hurry and nolim. At this point we're giving maf more material of whose being TR the most and who could be mislimed tomorrow

Strongly disagree. Tomorrows execution is between duppin/shelly, all that will change is we will have one less town. Besides, dave needs to have a chance to contribute so we can get a better understanding of where he is at.

i agree with your last point. Dave looks like the most obvious partner for but on the off chance he is indeed town i believe it is important we give him a chance to get back into the game

[duppin]

also regarding whether we should lim today or not, UNO is kind of right. Ever since shelly forced a 1v1 between me we can justify limming today simply because it's going to be the exact same players you need to solve tomorrow

[duppin]

because i want to hear from dave

[duppin]

also if hectic is alive tomorrow I'm probably gonna tunnel them. Makes the most sense for a partner.

by the way what exactly do you mean by this? this seems like a really silly statement to make if you are town

[duppin]

also if hectic is alive tomorrow I'm probably gonna tunnel them. Makes the most sense for a partner.

by the way what exactly do you mean by this? this seems like a really silly statement to make if you are town

you'll find out

youre still going to have to elaborate on your post. makes the most sense for a partner for who?

[duppin]

@davesaz i understand youre trying to do a hard reset, but i would like to hear your thoughts regarding shellys claim

[duppin]

i see, i will follow up on it tomorrow then

[duppin]

i mean it kind of seems like you are just flailing at this point. you go from this super confident and aggressive player to trying to appeal and downplaying yourself, your logic is still super inconsistent, like you just questioned why people were not considering scum to no kill when you were the first to bring up who scum would kill.

also i dont mean this in a condescending way at all, but i really think you made a couple if big mistakes with your claim. this might be hindsight, but i really think you should have retracted the claim when i asked you to because i think that would wouldve likely won you the game. I understand that youre probably just going to call out this comment for whatever reasons and thats fair, but between the two of us you i just wanted to tell you that this is an area i think you should work on. it sounds super condescending actually but its not really not my intention

anyway we can call each other out all day long but i doubt thats going to help town

also regarding whether we should lim today or not, UNO is kind of right. Ever since shelly forced a 1v1 between me we can justify limming today simply because it's going to be the exact same players you need to solve tomorrow

I was saying we should don't need to rush the day to an end. I still believe we should not execute, even though the choice is the same whoever dies outside the 1v1 will rule things out for the remaining players.

kind of - I really need to talk to plus today though to evaluate his slot.

my concern is that he might be town in which case i think it might be a mistake to go for a no lim today simply because if he is town i believe he is pocketed by shelly. based on what he has said he has already made up his mind on me and shelly so and yes this is from my point of view obviously, but in that case shelly would never kill him in the night but instead kill someone like hectic (who she claimed would be the best kill for me which is just absurd if hectic is town).

Now what this means is that assuming it is a 3 man scum team then they only need 1 town so if plus is town then that means they most likely already have that town in which case tomorrow is probably jsut going to be a loss. I mean absolutely no offense by this but i am not sure i trust plus if he is town on being able to solve me and shelly based on what he has said so far

now another issue is that we still have absolutely no idea where davesaz head is at at the moment

[duppin]

shelly you proved yourself that you were scum, i need to prove that i am town to the rest of town

[duppin]

you just linked a game with 3 scum? what am i missing?

[duppin]

(who she claimed would be the best kill for me which is just absurd if hectic is town).

Who would the best kill for you be if you were scum with Dave?

plus

[duppin]

it doesnt, youre looking at the dead list

[duppin]

also the main point hectic was making is that youve played the game under the assumption that there have been 3 scum all game long, so it was weird for you to call him out for that

[duppin]

also the main point hectic was making is that youve played the game under the assumption that there have been 3 scum all game long, so it was weird for you to call him out for that

when did i make that assumption though

when you tried to put out a 3 man solve day 2? actually i think you already did it day 1

[duppin]

i mean even the fact that you claim it is mylo is based on the assumption that it is a team of 3

[duppin]

i mean even the fact that you claim it is mylo is based on the assumption that it is a team of 3

yes im assuming its a 3-man team but so has the whole plist.

indeed they have, which is why it is weird for you to call it out

[duppin]

i was a bit surprised by that as well. if plus is town however i also think it is a possibility that she apparently always mislims plus as scum so perhaps she thought this might be a scumtell for her, she made sure to put it out there that she always mislims him as scum for some reason. Most likely for pocketing if plus is town but i dont know

[duppin]

plus will you follow up on your post from yesterday?

[duppin]

I see. Anyway Plus I need to solve your alignment and if youre town you really need to solve me, so let's talk

Could you explain your read on you? I understand that if you townread shelly and believe her claim, but you were already reading me as scum before that

[duppin]

i mean your read on me

[duppin]

duppin saying he'd nk me if scum is kinda odd too

why do you believe that is odd?

[duppin]

duppin saying he'd nk me if scum is kinda odd too

why do you believe that is odd?

I'm pretty easily manipulated most of the time and limbait

okay but you are clearly siding with shelly whereas hectic seems to believe me. are you aware that shelly tried to push the idea that if i was scum i would always kill her or hectic in the night?

[duppin]

I see. Anyway Plus I need to solve your alignment and if youre town you really need to solve me, so let's talk

Could you explain your read on you? I understand that if you townread shelly and believe her claim, but you were already reading me as scum before that

its mainly gut. posting style has a bit to do with it too

okay but youre going to have to elaborate plus, because if you are town then you are wrong and perhaps you do not believe so but as town you need to realise you need to solve us. I am not of the impression that you are trying to solve me but have already settled

[duppin]

are you aware that shelly tried to push the idea that if i was scum i would always kill her or hectic in the night?

i am not you and i do not need to do NKA finding out whos the best kill for you. i posted that BEFORE hectic sided with you.

and yet you still tried to

[duppin]

duppin saying he'd nk me if scum is kinda odd too

why do you believe that is odd?

I'm pretty easily manipulated most of the time and limbait

okay but you are clearly siding with shelly whereas hectic seems to believe me. are you aware that shelly tried to push the idea that if i was scum i would always kill her or hectic in the night?

no but hectic is most UTR so he'd be my best guess for the nk target

okay so if you believe i am scum do you believe it makes more sense for me to go into lylo with someone siding with me or someone who has sided with shelly?

[duppin]

you trying to "read" me comes more as survivalistic than genuine. I could understand the motivation if ur town tho.

the latter part of your post here is the only important thing. you have to consider me, if you still reach the same conclusion it is what it is but if if youre town you actually need to evaluate at this point

[duppin]

the latter part of your post here is the only important thing. you have to consider me, if you still reach the same conclusion it is what it is but if if youre town you actually need to evaluate at this point

plus is plausibly the most flipfloppy town ive ever seen. trying to get them to consider town!you is the exact right move for scum to do.

but WIM > everything, I'm not losing this duel!

its also the most obvous thing to do as town lol what is this even supposed to mean.

its also a good way for me to get a read on him

[duppin]

its also the most obvous thing to do as town lol what is this even supposed to mean.

its also a good way for me to get a read on him

didnt you already townbin them because you thought i was "POCKETING" them
the inconsistency

no, i said i thought it was a possibility.

i dont think you would like to talk about inconsistency for what it is worth

[duppin]

no, i said i thought it was a possibility.

i dont think you would like to talk about inconsistency for what it is worth

"possibility"

how come you have 0 confidence in any of your reads because they're "POSSIBILITIES"

because i dont have tmi like you

[duppin]

yes clearly that is the case

[duppin]

thanks for the talk

now plus please respond to my posts

[duppin]

hm I am fairly confident UNO is town so I think thats a 0/2 solve in mylo which no matter what your alignment is, is a bit concerning

[duppin]

this is semi of an outside factor/meta but
I'd also think shelly is aware that I was salty af at her since 2163 ended, like frustrated enough to self vote in lylo as town. She's gotten me elimed imo 3 times as scum. Maybe she just feels bad, but she has to be somewhat aware I'd be more likely to go for her in a lylo situation since I don't wanna lose to scum!shelly again, which leads me to think she's town.

on the other hand it could also be a reason to pocket you if youre town

[duppin]

I think dave is town, mainly cause saudade was very townie to me. When I read suadade, he played exactly the same as he did in 2163 to me, he just went for another slot. Dave strikes me as genuine too at this point, but i need to hear more + reread.

Dave is not Saudade's replacement.

oh shit wtf I must've went too fast
who replaced saudade? who did dave replace?

battle mage replaced saudade
dave replaced mini

[duppin]

plus if you are town i would love for you to iso dive and revaluate the game and then if you reach the same conclusion you are wrong but it is what it is, however to me you come across as very conf biased since you seem to attribute everything shelly does as coming from a town perspective and everything i do from a scum perspective. if you are town i expect you to have an open mind and then evaluate and then i can whine post game if you still read the same conclusion but at least i cant blame you for lack of effort

[duppin]

dave could definitely be scum in fact I think it is very likely, but shelly is 100% scum. I believe we should always lim in me and shelly rather than delaying it especially since the only townread i am very confident in is UNO

[duppin]

I believe you are more likely to be town but youre my paranoia read.

but I actually kind of understand your point since it would be easy to push the dave duppin pair in which case the lack of resistance would be easy to explain

[duppin]

I'm kind of struggling to understand how I'm still your paranoia read after gunning for shelly so much with you.

because i dont believe associations reads are worth that much in mylo especially not with a counterclaim

[duppin]

That's ignoring context though. The context here is that the rest of the players want to kill you. scum!me is actively trying to dissuade them to kill you, and to kill my partner, instead of just taking the win?

You're actually giving me doubts now lol

yes but until we know who we lim it's an irrelevant association because it could also be you trying to figure out where people are at first. You would need 3 people other htan yourself to vote on me to lim me, dave hasn't said a word and UNO was on the fence so it could obviously be a scum play distancing just in case it doesnt go their way

but as i also said i believe you are more likely to be town and i said a big reason for this was actually do to shelly spewing you as the kill

[duppin]

*2

Trying to figure out where people are while I hard bus my partner and try and convince them she's scum in the 1v1? I'm trying to understand if you really believe scum!me would make things this unnecessarily difficult for myself.

no we are 6 alive so you need 3 others including your partner

i am not sure you understand what i mean by a paranoia read, its more so that i believe you are town but would not be that surprised if you turned out to be scum. Based on your whole jester thing earlier and troll posts i could see you flexing yes. Do I think it is likely? no

[duppin]

yea but its still 3 including your partner because you wouldnt be possible for you to swap before 3 votes

[duppin]

i also said earlier that my paranoia was based on the fact that you initially seemed to be lurking more earlier on in mylo while posting else where which made me lean towards you waiting to see what people were going to do

[duppin]

it was actually the same reason i wanted to lim plus day 1 since he kept spamming elsewhere while not responding to pressure here

[duppin]

it was actually the same reason i wanted to lim plus day 1 since he kept spamming elsewhere while not responding to pressure here

i dont remember that

i mean of course you don't, i called you out for disappearing near the deadline even though you were active on the site so probably not surprising if you missed that

dave could definitely be scum in fact I think it is very likely, but shelly is 100% scum. I believe we should always lim in me and shelly rather than delaying it especially since the only townread i am very confident in is UNO

Why do you have such confidence in me?

i had the read since day 1, your iso just comes across as extremely town and genuine to me they way you evaluating things. Logic and thoughtprocess is very consistent and clear. I also now know that shelly is scum and i dont believe you are teammates because she was pushing for a solve with you in it day 2 together with norwee, while it could have been distancing to me it felt like you and mundivore were being pushed for to be the lims for the next day

[duppin]

i genuinely think it should be obvious that this was a pretty poor fake claim, there is so much inconsistency and just straight up bad logic.

anyway the problem with this game is that no matter what plus alignment is, the game is pretty much already lost. he said he would iso dive and revaluate but i dont believe he has and i am unsure if he is going to, so plus if you are town then it's really honestly a bit shitty of you to not put in at least some effort (like not knowing who replaced who in mylo) and lose the game for town simply because you couldnt be bothered. if you are scum then fair enough

but yes no matter what his alignment is the game is most likely lost because at this point because im pretty sure both hectic and uno are just town at this point meaning that we would have 3 votes on shelly, plus and shelly are voting on me and that leaves us with davesaz who still hasn't taken a stance for some reason (?), but if plus is town then its just shelly + dave in which case its going to be tied at 3-3, tomorrow they kill one of uno/hectic and i get limmed

if davesaz is town then there should still be a chance for us to lim shelly, but i think davesaz is way more likely to be scum at this point and plus is just a pocketed town

[duppin]

oh and

VOTE: shelly

[duppin]

I have a mechanical analysis of Shelly's claim, but it makes more sense to talk about it after massclaim. I don't want to take any risk at all that scum can use it to get an advantage.

this sounds a bit odd. since everyone has claimed now id like you to follow up on this

[duppin]

Another thing: hectic pointed out Norway’s check on bugspray making bugs near conftown which makes no sense from a commuter perspective as a commuter would want to eat the nightkill

Yep, there is no way Hectic commuted night 1 when three PRs had been outed so this looks really bad in light of claim.

i am bit confused as to what you mean by this, are you suggesting hectic claimed to have commuted night 1?

[duppin]

i am bit confused as to what you mean by this, are you suggesting hectic claimed to have commuted night 1?

Hectic should have had no worries about surviving to day 4, so he had no reason to out bugspray as the likely gunsmith clear. Doing that points the scum kill away from himself which is the opposite of what his role is useful for. If he commuted night 1 + 2 it is more understandable but also not credible.

ah i understand now, thats actually a good point and kind of related to the initial read i gave on hectic this day (that he pushed town on bugs to provide an explanation for why he would still be alive), however it is wifom and i believe he is town at this point

its also a possobility he is a 1-shot and used it day 2 and but is doing it to introduce wifom into the next night since shelly seemed to spew him as the kill (dont comment on this hectic)

[duppin]

ah i understand now, thats actually a good point and kind of related to the initial read i gave on hectic this day (that he pushed town on bugs to provide an explanation for why he would still be alive), however it is wifom and i believe he is town at this point

its also a possobility he is a 1-shot and used it day 2 and but is doing it to introduce wifom into the next night since shelly seemed to spew him as the kill (dont comment on this hectic)

Norwegian was still around on day 2 so while it is more plausible I don't really buy commuting then either.

There is not much need to introduce wifom because Hectic guaranteed he doesn't die tonight the moment he claimed X-shot commuter, regardless of how many charges he has. Which means it is exactly the move he had to make if scum, as otherwise whichever of me/Plus/dave is still around would question why scum!shelly doesn't just kill him and push an UNO/duppin team for victory.

not really true because if he is a 1-shot then the bugs comment could suggest he had already used his ability

[duppin]

anyway i can theorize all day long but ultimately i agree with the concern actually, however i know i am town and i know shelly is scum so i dont really care that much about solving his claim

[duppin]

not really true because if he is a 1-shot then the bugs comment could suggest he had already used his ability

The bugs comment suggests that either way. Shelly doesn't kill Hectic because him flipping X-shot commuter would

probably

be enough to convince the town in Plus/dave to at least reconsider.

kind of - shelly had already tried to push the idea that hectic was the best kill for me which i called out so even before hectic claimed the kill on him could possibly backfire especially the way hectic aligned himself with me and pushed on shelly. You seem to be implying that the only reason for scum not to kill hectic as town tonight if we no lim is due to his claim

[duppin]

It's tough, because on the one hand there's:

- dodgy dave stubbornly sitting on his hands the entire day
- Plus hammering without a claim twice and ending day 3 way too early
- shelly with an unconvincing and conveniently timed claim

Individually any one of them looks scummier to me than either duppin or Hectic but together there is no combination that satisfyingly explains how they've played today. Shelly sticking her neck out to save dave by going after duppin is a strange risk if that's the team, even stranger if it's Plus/shelly (which I doubt, but suppose is still possible).

On the other hand, duppin and Hectic are playing really clean games and there's not much I take issue with. But with how this day has gone I can totally see them making sense as a team.

the issue is that if plus is town then this game is already lost and i dont really have a problem with that itself, but i have an issue with the lack of effort. he talks about iso diving, wanting to revaluate etc but hasn't done any of that yet still puts out a vote in mylo. I would lie if i said that it did not bother me a little because i think he is more likely to be town over dave

[duppin]

also this is meaningless as i would probably claim this if i was scum as well, but id never look up my partners games and call them out for posting elsewhere. id also not try to push and justify a policy lim on them day 1, shelly mentioned before that i backed off and whatever but the only reason i backed off was because people were very opposed to it

[duppin]

kind of - shelly had already tried to push the idea that hectic was the best kill for me which i called out so even before hectic claimed the kill on him could possibly backfire especially the way hectic aligned himself with me and pushed on shelly. You seem to be implying that the only reason for scum not to kill hectic as town tonight if we no lim is due to his claim

You're right that the Hectic kill might have been a risk anyway, but Plus at least seemed to be expecting it to happen even in the shelly town world.

plus was pushing the idea very early on this day that if hectic survived then he would push him tomorrow because he would be the most likely partner, he didnt state for who but and didnt respond to when i asked him to elaborate but later kind of followed up on it and said he was the most likely partner for me. I initially thought his logic was a bti weird, but then when i realised he mixed up the replacements it made a bit more sense to me, but i am a bit troubled by him not revaluating associations after realising he messed up the replacements. So yeah ultimately i think he is lazy town or scum and at the moment i am leaning more towards the former because I think dave is more suspicious

[duppin]

plus was pushing the idea very early on this day that if hectic survived then he would push him tomorrow because he would be the most likely partner, he didnt state for who but and didnt respond to when i asked him to elaborate but later kind of followed up on it and said he was the most likely partner for me. I initially thought his logic was a bti weird, but then when i realised he mixed up the replacements it made a bit more sense to me, but i am a bit troubled by him not revaluating associations after realising he messed up the replacements. So yeah ultimately i think he is lazy town or scum and at the moment i am leaning more towards the former because I think dave is more suspicious

Yeah he was, but I think shelly at that stage would still have gone for the kill against Hectic because UNO/duppin scum is likely to be an easier sell in endgame than Hectic/duppin based on our comparative presence in thread.

sure i agree that is definitely a possibility, but i dont think so. shelly tried to push that i would kill her or hectic - both which are really bad kills from my point of view as scum because either i kill shelly (who has claimed n3 tracker so leaving her alive would be irrelevant) and immediately get limmed the next day, or i kill hectic who was already siding me with over shelly at this point so reducing my chance to win in mylo. The kill would only make sense from her point of view and the fact that she tried to push it onto me is a scumtell and one of many reasons why her fake claim was not good

[duppin]

oh i misread your post actually - i think she initially wanted to lim hectic but after plus started pushing me and hectic as the pair it would be bad for her to kill hectic especially if plus is town

[duppin]

i mean kill hectic not lim obviously

[duppin]

I think scum!shelly's going to win and I've kind of lost the motivation to fight it anymore. Most likely with Dave.

I haven't caught up completely, but once again, I outed the gunsmith clear without thinking as soon as I saw it, since honestly, I didn't think bugspray would die in the night even with a good clear on them. I later regretted it and even PMed some of my frustration to Morning lol

aaa, I wish I had some more WIM to fight but I really can't be asked right now. duppin, can you please obvtown or something? I feel like the game is lost either way now, since even if I'm horribly wrong and duppin is scum, I'm gonna be mislaunched for the loss tomorrow at this rate.

as i said i think the game is over as well. dave is hardly around so impossible to engage with but seems to be leaning towards believing shelly (?) and plus has no interest in trying to solve my alignment

[duppin]

i understand that i am biased but i genuinely believe that shellys claim was really a bad and i dont think an experienced player would ever really buy it due to the lack of inconsistensy and poor logic. in my opinion it is very easy to deconstruct the fake claim but dave seems to have some kind of mechanical analysis that makes it more believable and plus says "sure it could be scummy but i dont think she would do that", its really not easy to work with

[duppin]

i mean the lack of consistency obviously

[duppin]

i think you misread, i never said i thought dave was town or uno was scum

[duppin]

oh i see what caused the confusion, i meant that dave seems to have some kind of mechanical analysis that makes shellys claim more believable to him for some reason

[duppin]

but yeah point is there is a town between dave and plus and its not possible to work with whoever it is because one isnt around (i understand if youre busy, but that does not change the fact) and the other one straight up isnt trying. the fact that plus had mixed replacements up all the way to mylo is honestly a bit ridiculous

[duppin]

but yeah point is there is a town between dave and plus and its not possible to work with whoever it is because one isnt around (i understand if youre busy, but that does not change the fact) and the other one straight up isnt trying. the fact that plus had mixed replacements up all the way to mylo is honestly a bit ridiculous

Nah, Plus seems really towny this day, and I don't think he's ever scum with shelly because of Jacko/shelly interactions. It's probably just Dave, but outside chance of UNOwen.

oh i believe plus is more likely to be town, which is why i am calling out his play

[duppin]

if youre town then most likely yes

[duppin]

i disagree unless they want to do a WIFOM kill but that would be really risky for no reason. I can't see how a kill on uno would change plus mind

[duppin]

unless hectic or i die, i dont believe plus is going to put in an effort to solve my slot if he is town, so to be completely honest i cant see myself trying to put in an effort tomorrow given the current game state so assuming a 3-3 tie and assuming you guys are both town, i frankly wouldnt mind that much if you hammered me

[duppin]

i thought youd be v/la but i do appreciate you posting if busy actually

I haven't caught up completely, but once again, I outed the gunsmith clear without thinking as soon as I saw it, since honestly, I didn't think bugspray would die in the night even with a good clear on them. I later regretted it and even PMed some of my frustration to Morning lol

aaa, I wish I had some more WIM to fight but I really can't be asked right now. duppin, can you please obvtown or something? I feel like the game is lost either way now, since even if I'm horribly wrong and duppin is scum, I'm gonna be mislaunched for the loss tomorrow at this rate.

hectic is now officially flailing

ehhhh im fine with no elim if we just get duppin tmr then hectic and finish the job off

seriously. another thing is that dave is a mechanically-oriented player, and im a newb at heart, so why wouldn't me and dave talk about the best claim to make? dave/me makes no sense at all, uno/me doesn't make sense because UNO can just push through and dave/uno/shelly/plus all vote duppin and finish the job.

me/hectic and me/duppin are impossible. I am not paired with anyone here.

i mean there are a lot of ways to explain this: dave has been very busy throughout the game so its possible you never really got to talk about fake claiming, it is also possible that you did (since he seemed to suggest it would be silly for scum to fake tracker) but that he did not know youd come up with such a weak claim. this is a nonsensical read to try to clear yourself

even though you can say me/dave/plus have been more individually scummy, scum is a TEAM and simply the only way to explain this mylo is that hectic/duppin are scum

uh... what? feel free to try to explain this

[duppin]

It should be obvious what I'm implying. I mean, I may as well say it at this point, as I'm an unlikely nightkill now. I didn't want them to know I was a commuter because I wanted them to target me tonight.

Scum!duppin obviously doesn’t kill you here

i would never kill uno either and you know that but pretty sure youd never admit to that as it it would force you into killing your only town supporter in dave/plus

[duppin]

hectic is now officially flailing

i also love this since earlier this day you said it was a scumtell to say someone was flailing, but yeah this is pretty much in line with your play today so i am not surprised

[duppin]

noraa is flailing now

keep in mind that next time as scum in this kind of situation you should self vote and shut up. you’re caught.

actually you also said it day 2, i just love the hypocritical inconsistency, it really is a shame that the town in dave/plus isnt around more

[duppin]

where even is plus? he voted and then disappeared

[duppin]

im still likely to go duppin today
to sleep i go

jesus at this point I really hope you aren't town because if you are then im inclined to say that you singlehandely lost this

WIFOM aside, why would I ever kill UNO? Both UNO and Hectic were siding with me, it makes no sense for me unless you think I'd go for style points to kill UNO over you if you are town.
Also keep in mind that yesterday I pointed out that I would never kill UNO in the night and I pointed out that shelly would never admit to that. The only reason I point this out again is because you need to realise that if shelly was indeed town then from her point of view I would definitely not kill UNO and I would kill you - yes it is possible I would go for a WIFOM kill if I was scum and whatnot - but you need to understand that if shelly is scum this is what should be the most logical and obvious point of view. That I would kill a player siding with her. However she refuses to acknowledge this and instead just said I would never kill hectic. That is not a townie mindset that is a scum being scared of accidently limiting themselves in terms of kills because scum are thinking more about the potential WIFOM and having to fight against it. There is no way a town shelly would not have realised that you Plus (if town) should be my only and viable kill.

Killing UNO would pretty much be against my win condition if I was scum especially since UNO sided with not only me but also hectic - the team that shelly is pushing which means that for that world to even make sense we killed off our ONLY supporter. Why the hell would we ever do that as scum? We are the active players trying to actually solve the game so if we were scum then I am fairly certain that we would have been able to convince UNO no matter who we killed (unless it was shelly obviously). It should also be a tell for you that the most active and game solving players in mylo were me, hectic and UNO. We were actively looking for associations rather and attempting to solve each other. shelly on the other hand came out with a garbage claim (sorry i meant godlike 1v1 and charismatic claim (?)) that all the active players thought were terrible - you even pointed it out yourself Plus, the claim was bad. Pretty much everything she said yesterday was refusted, she was illogcal, inconsistent and hypocritical.

The world she is pushing is either relying on a town refusing to revaluate (plus) or a town not being active (dave), so im not getting my hopes up for this game, but plus if you expect me and hectic you put in an effort to prove to you that you are town then you better put in an effort yourself and try to approach mylo with an open mind.

You still have not answered my questions from last night. I asked you to explain why you scumread me, you said you couldn't really remember but would iso dive me to find out but you still havne't done that (yet you still didn't mind voting on me in mylo though). You are not trying to engage us which leads me to believe you are not trying to solve us. If you are town then this is really bad and if you are scum then fair enough you can ignore my criticism

[duppin]

you killed them because you feared uno's paranoia and my charisma

lol

[duppin]

WIFOM aside, why would I ever kill UNO? Both UNO and Hectic were siding with me, it makes no sense for me unless you think I'd go for style points to kill UNO over you if you are town.

this game is white flag for you and lost
if you killed UNO, plus votes you and gg

ah so you already know dave would vote on me, thanks for the slip

if you killed plus, UNO realises that its the best kill for you, gg

sure he does

[duppin]

shelly on the other hand came out with a garbage claim (sorry i meant godlike 1v1 and charismatic claim (?)) that all the active players thought were terrible - you even pointed it out yourself Plus, the claim was bad. Pretty much everything she said yesterday was refusted, she was illogcal, inconsistent and hypocritical.

UNO thought it was fine

no he did not, he thought it was a bad claim

dave thought it was fine

i have no idea what dave thought about it, he did a weird analysis

plus thought it was fine

not true even plus thought it was bad. He said it was so bad that he thought it was townie of you

[duppin]

It should also be a tell for you that the most active and game solving players in mylo were me, hectic and UNO. We were actively looking for associations rather and attempting to solve each other.

in mylo my job was to convince town that my claim was true, and I succeeded!

you didnt convince anyone but plus who was townreading you before your claim. UNO the now confirmed town did not believe your claim.

you were fakesolving
from your pov the game was solved as me/dave or plus
this is a perspective slip

you could maybe even push this angle if it wasnt for the fact that i was already trying to solve before your claim

[duppin]

well all the town arrived at the conclusion that shelly = town which is correct
so my claim was fine

the only confirmed town (uno) did not.
the only one who said he thought u were town was plus. dave made a weird ass analysis that ignored hectics claim

[duppin]

UNO the now confirmed town did not believe your claim.

lol??????

they did
cant quote because on mobile but they were clearly paranoid about you

no they did not... jesus christ lol

[duppin]

uno was paranoid about me and hectic buddying him up but thought we were way more believable than you and he did not believe your claim. dont make up stuff, serves no purpose

[duppin]

duppin quote the post when you did your glorious Solving

uh how about you just iso me. i brought up the fact that she never voted on you and actually gave you a slight tr for your play even though her play was dodgy, i pointed out how she dodged the plus wagon but then later retracted that as i realised she had voted on plus earlier etc

[duppin]

It remains possible that I have been completely fooled by the entire scum team deciding to townread me, in particular duppin's reasons for trusting me reminded me of Noraa and I really don't think my day 1 ISO was all that great considering most of it was spent tunnelling town. I don't understand why he wavered on his Hectic read but not on me when from his point of view Hectic has been backing him up all along and I have been the one to avoid committing, so if anything I should look like the opportunistic scum waiting to see which way the wind blows. It kind of looked like it was a reaction to Plus mentioning the duppin/Hectic team possibility. He certainly has had a suspiciously explain-y tone at times which I have put down to personality. Finally, the independent raising of the replace out theory by Hectic and duppin sticks in my mind, it could suggest that this was something scum talked about in pt.

found it

congratulations you found a post where he is scared of me and hectic buddying him which i just said he was paranoid of - want to go over all the posts where he clearly says he believes us over you?

[duppin]

how about referring to his last post of the day?

[duppin]

YES ONOWEN

you have no idea how happy I am to see you finally seeing the light. now we just need to get that + guy out of the darkness

See now I fear I am being manipulated again.

So this is where I am unless I survive to day 5 and go back to doubt and indecision:

It remains possible that I have been completely fooled by the entire scum team deciding to townread me, in particular duppin's reasons for trusting me reminded me of Noraa and I really don't think my day 1 ISO was all that great considering most of it was spent tunnelling town. I don't understand why he wavered on his Hectic read but not on me when from his point of view Hectic has been backing him up all along and I have been the one to avoid committing, so if anything I should look like the opportunistic scum waiting to see which way the wind blows. It kind of looked like it was a reaction to Plus mentioning the duppin/Hectic team possibility. He certainly has had a suspiciously explain-y tone at times which I have put down to personality. Finally, the independent raising of the replace out theory by Hectic and duppin sticks in my mind, it could suggest that this was something scum talked about in pt.

But overall I end up thinking that this is just paranoia and that the scum team is simply shelly/dave. Hectic seemed genuine about thinking there was going to be an execution today, so the motive for the commuter claim as scum is weakened (he does not need to explain his survival to day 5 if the scumpartner he's defending is about to get executed). bugspray stuff is still a problem, but my instinct would probably have been to point it out without thinking too. And does duppin scum call attention to this if that was his partners play?

shelly's claim requires believing that despite being super confident this entire game, she got worried when she had a guilty result on her track. It also requires believing that she chose not to track the players she was suspicious of. Stitching up duppin instead of Plus is strange, but maybe the idea was that Plus would be too obvious. Perhaps she was worried she would not win in final three, perhaps she was just impatient and wanted to make a bold play, perhaps she intended to claim it was a reaction test but decided to press ahead when it looked like it might fly. It's a big risk, but I can see her going for it.

I think Hectic has a good argument that a lot of what she says sounds fake and it's difficult to imagine her believing in it, going all the way back to the Jackson push from day 1. It's probably worth comparing this with some of her town games to see if this is AI or if it's just how she plays but in isolation it looks clearly scummy.

With dave idk, it might just be because I haven't seen a lot. This day has gone all the way to deadline to allow time for him to do his hard reset and all he has offered is a mechanical defence that soft supports shelly but does not account for Hectic's claim or what she has actually said. It's a shame if he is town and this is all he has time for, but I would have expected town in this situation to have a bit more urgency in providing relevant content. He had no problem offering weak reads when he entered (2005) so I don't trust this "I have bad reads" explanation. Going back, he was prepared to hammer the Redados wagon because he agreed with it despite not once suggesting so during day 1, and he wordlessly echoed the Noraa/Mundivore/UNO solve despite claiming he had his own reasons which he never had the chance to expand on. It's not much and they feel like lazy reasons to say he is scum, but the simplest explanation is that he is and is just attempting to coast it out.

[duppin]

uh how about you just iso me. i brought up the fact that she never voted on you and actually gave you a slight tr for your play even though her play was dodgy, i pointed out how she dodged the plus wagon but then later retracted that as i realised she had voted on plus earlier etc

who's she here

also why should I ISO confscum

she is noraa

you iso conf scum to evaluate their play from before they were conf scum. anything noraa said day 1 is valid also you clearly did iso her lol, you were trying to push association reads day 2 when she was going down
another hypocritical statement

[duppin]

shelly you can try to ignore unos last post as much as you will, fact is you are lying at this point (once again as hectic pointed out you also lied day 1), but i am sure plus will townread you for it so no need to be worried

[duppin]

then surely you shouldnt care about me trying to engage dave and plus

[duppin]

but i am sure plus will townread you for it so no need to be worried

see you already lost hope

well played but just concede so we can speed this up and get to postgame

no i lost hope yesterday when i realised that plus was most likely town

[duppin]

then surely you shouldnt care about me trying to engage dave and plus

i care because i need my TRs to form a block and vote you

but why would you mind, you are apparently very "charismatic"

[duppin]

but why would you mind, you are apparently very "charismatic"

because I need to high effort to convince them

doubtful since me uno and hectic all put in a high effort yesterday and neither of them showed up, so i think you should just continue with the lies and being hypocritic that seems to work for you

[duppin]

im making sure you're not just bullshitting as you usually do

oh feel free to point out where i have been bullshitting and please can i go next and point out where you have been bullshitting?

also plus is town and has been with me so you just lost

once again a slip, you just know dave is town and is voting with you even though he has barely said anything. even plus has no idea where dave is but you have no concern at all

[duppin]

that definitely seems to indicate it is just shelly/dave in which case i can criticise plus again

[duppin]

doubtful since me uno and hectic all put in a high effort yesterday and neither of them showed up, so i think you should just continue with the lies and being hypocritic that seems to work for you

lol?

I had more posts than both UNO and hectic yesterday

because you spam a lot of useless stuff. you called UNO out for pushing a 3 man team i mean jesus christ lol

[duppin]

once again a slip, you just know dave is town and is voting with you even though he has barely said anything. even plus has no idea where dave is but you have no concern at all

plus and dave are both town and with me. k thanks.

I am sure they are. We can go on for this forever, unlike you I am willing to point out all the flaws in your play, where you contradicted yourself, where you were hypocritical and were you straight up lied and none of this is based on my perspective it is based on what you have said in the game thread and everyone can see it so there is no denying it. If Plus wants to townread you for that then he is free to do so, but I will definitely call him out for it if he is town

[duppin]

that was bullshitting since I did care about dave and asked the mod to prod them
i cant have anything to work with if someone is MIA, also duppin is just venting instead of convincing plus because they lost

There was no bullshitting. You clearly implied on the last page that dave would vote with you even though he has not said so.

[duppin]

i didnt imply anything???? that dave would vote with me
they both TR me and will vote with me

Dave never said he was townreading you he also never said he would vote on me.
He said he thought your claim was more likely to be true in absence of hectics claim but then said he would evaluate hectics claim but hasnt done so yet

[duppin]

I believe shelly is town as well actually. I have not played with her and most of the scumreads on her seems to be a bit biased on meta but the reads themselves seem to be a bit lackluster to me.
I think someone said it was suspicious of her to do pre flip reads but I disagree with this a lot actually - it is bad if she starts playing around pre flips, but expressing her thoughts on a potential flip is something I find to be a bit more towny albeit easy to fake as scum as well as it helps you set up your read progression in case you get a mislynch through. But the counter argument to that in this case is in my opinion that shelly has been all over the playerlist. I am pretty sure she has called out everyone for something at this point and has engaged with everyone. I have no idea if this is out of her scumrange or not but to me her play jsut comes across as coming from a town perspective.

lmao

for all future scums: im a bad target to pocket

Yes I thought you were town day 1 and I evne thought you were town yesterday as I just mentioned on the last page; I thought noraas behaviour towards you was scummy but I thought it could be due to noraa not wanting attention, now after having finished another game with noraa as scum and actually looking up the doggos game as well I am perfectly aware that she is just really awkward at bussing.
By the way I thought you would not ISO "confirmed scum"

[duppin]

i didnt imply anything???? that dave would vote with me
they both TR me and will vote with me

Dave never said he was townreading you he also never said he would vote on me.
He said he thought your claim was more likely to be true in absence of hectics claim but then said he would evaluate hectics claim but hasnt done so yet

didnt he drop the wall after hectic claimed or did i just mess up everything

Yes you messed up everything including your claim

let me also bring back up the time where I reaction tested by saying that confidence had something related to my role
HECTIC and DUPPIN started rolefishing by prompting me to answer and asking me about the role

Yes it makes so much sense for two scum partners to question a vague ass "reaction test". I love to call it a reaction test when I play poorly as well.

[duppin]

hectic and duppin are so obvscum it hurts
they rolefished together

lol

they pushed the narrative that mini/jackson are not t/t together

Yes we definitely pushed this. I remember pushing this hard by saying this was a one off comment that everyone should ignore but I just wanted it for post game credit and I have never mentioned it since. Damn I really pushed that.

duppin pressured hectic early for a few posts but then randomly shitpushed saudade for no reason

I tried to push a policy wagon on hectic true, but it stopped since everyone else was opposed to it. It could be scum distancing, but the more likely conclusion is probably that it would be unlikely.
Also "randomly shitpushed Saudade for no reason" is a nice way to twist things.

duppin and hectic mostly broadly TR each other for not much reason

No I think our reads on each other have been rather elaborate actually. Also I was not really townreading hectic going into yesterday because he hadn't done anything since day 1, which I thought was weird given how he approached day 1.

[duppin]

By the way I thought you would not ISO "confirmed scum"

was just interested in how much you'd try and pocket me early game, for the postgame

There isn't even anything pockety about that post unless youre trying to imply that every townread is someone trying to pocket.

[duppin]

Alright so how about we first go over noraas non sense read and stance towards shelly:

69-73: claims the probability of shelly rolling scum again is low
143: reacts to shellys push on her. Does not really take a stance on her push.
167: questions shelly standing up for mini. Says she might have found "two scums" this round (has not called shelly scum before this and does not vote on either player)
179: tries to push the idea of shelly/mini again when a TR is given on shelly.
210: responds to shellys meta read on her - says she has no finished town games
213: calls shellys reasoning bad
215: says what shelly just said looks bad
- While she never states that she is scumreading shelly at this point, she definitely seems to be suggesting the slot is suspicious

then people begin to question shelly and Jester/hectic pushes shelly as scum:

513: out of nowhere noraa decides to comment on shelly of all players with a really weird comment: "

Oh also one other thing before I go to bed. I wanna put a word in my my ex scum partner. Shelly plays a good scum game imo and if she's doing anything really scummy here(I haven't caught up yet so im not quite too sure if this applies), I would assume she's just playing a weird asf town game. Idk but that's my view on that after being her scum partner once and shallow meta diving her a bit afterwards

"
752: says shelly plays strange and that she does not understand her line of thinking ever. Says that shelly will be on her null list for a long time because she has a hard time figuring her out
966: i just remembered noraa mixes me and bugspray up here. More interesting is that she at this points claims shelly hasnt done anything alignment indicative so far.
approx from #966-#1017: some weird interactions between them, resulting in talk about signature and whatnot
- so what happened here is that while she initially seem to have scumread shelly the immediately backs down as soon as players begin to push on her

then shelly starts to push on Jackson insead:

1042: noraa calls out shellys push on jackson because she think it is suspicious for shelly to start a new wagon now that a wagon on Saudade is piling up. She pushes for a shelly/saudade scum team.
1047: Now she suddenly has a scumread on shelly but not on saudade. We know Saudade was town, we know she tried to push the idea that shelly was scum because of trying to "save" the wagon on Saudade.
We also know that she doesnt think shelly has done "anything alignment indicative" until this, so it makes no sense for her to push shelly as scum while not putting Saudade there as the read would have to be based on Saudade being scum.
1068: she says she believe the scum team from most scummy to least scummy is from redados > shelly > norwee/bugspray
- Okay so now she seems to be scumreading shelly again for very weird and illogical reasoning

but then this happens:

1161: she questions mundivore's vote on shelly and seems to be trying to defend shelly against a Mundivore's meta read on her.
1259, 1261, 1263, 1264, 1266, 1271: noraa goes out of her way to argue against the notion that her and shelly could ever be scum, she even tries to put a very slight townlean on redados for saying that they could not be together because she think its "townie" to believe that (?) (I also think this is very interesting is because she seems to be trying to entertain the idea that redados is more town but for that to make sense the natural vote for her would be on shelly, so for no apparent reason she throws this away pretty much immediately adn just goes back to "red so scummy")
1309: she pushes the idea that shelly and redados are the scum team and that they are the two most sus players
1340: norwee then votes on shelly; but then noraa questions it? she says she doesnt know and that shelly gives off scummy vibes no matter her alignment and she doesnt know what to think of her, while also in the very same post saying a post of her is something she did as scum in another game

and a bonus:
1483: shelly has called noraa scum all game long, but then her puts her at the bottom of her lim order. She never explained why and even when noraa asked about she responded to everything else noraa said but this reason being there was no logical or good explanation for this.

---
So what this shows is that noraa kept calling shelly scum when it was easy to do, but every time it people began to push shelly she started to question the push and defend it. She never once voted on her scum read and even at one point when she was cornering herself into shelly being her top scum she decided to go back on the slight townlead she had just given to justify voting on red over shelly.
She kept going back and forth between scumreading shelly only to null read her because "she hasnt done anything alignment indicative" and so on when people actually pushed on her.

Ironically shelly did the exact same thing - the pushed on noraa all day long but then when it started mattering (closer to deadline, had to settle on wagons) she put her at the bottom of her lim order for no reason whatsoever.

What makes Noraa's behaviour towards shelly even more indicative of being a scum pair is noraa's meta.
I just finished a game with her where she was scum where I ironically referred to the doggos game where she was scum with shelly for a very specific reason; because in the doggos game, in the game we jsut finished (mafiasunny) and in this game she is doing the exact same thing to her partner in all of them: throws shade at them when it matters yet always finds a reason not to vote and always try to carefully question the push on them. She always tries to find a way to justify not voting on someone she is scumreading.

[duppin]

throws shade at them when it matters yet always finds a reason not to vote and always try to carefully question the push on them.

throws shade at them when it does not matter yet always finds a reason not to vote when it matters*

[duppin]

Plus why do you believe I am more likely to be scum?

[duppin]

Also Plus as hectic mentioned yesterday it is factual that shelly has lied several times. Do you believe that is more likely to be a towntell?

[duppin]

cuz shelly tracked you and I've had a gutread against you most the game. And like I think Shelly is more likely to be town than you based on her play this game.
The issue with the Duppin/Hectic team is hectic has been obvtown most of the game for me, but his claim doesn't fit with shelly.
The issue with Shelly/dave is Shelly appears pretty town to me, but dave has been null.

but what is this "gut" read based on? and why have you still not tried to solve my slot?

[duppin]

plus you also realise that shelly actually slipped right? she knew dave would vote with her for no apparent reason.
if you are town you then consider this comment to be aimed towards post game: you need to up your town game in mylo and stop dismissing/clearing players for what is generally considered to be scumtells no matter how strong your "gut" read is. you need to evaluate it and if you reach the same conclusion then it is what it is, but giving it a pass/ignoring all the things indicates that you dont have an open mind and have already settled. If there hasn't been a counterclaim then this is how you get mislimmed as town

[duppin]

I also hope you understand that if you are town then I am blaming you for a) not trying to evaluate my slot. You are sticking to a gut read based on nothing, dismissing every being said and reading the game state with confirmation bias; you believe shelly is town and you are twisting everything like that no matter how scummy it is and b) giving players pass for a lot of things you yourself said were questionable and even more things you just refuse to acknowledge

[duppin]

Shelly has lied several times, she has been hypocritical, she has been inconsistent and illogical. I can provide proof of all of this, but what is the point when you are just going to dismiss it as "lol shelly so scummy but my gut says you"? You should be concerned that I could be scum trying to manipulate you which is why I have been advocating all along for you to do your own evaluation but you aren't doing it even though I keep calling you out for it

[duppin]

By the way and this is WIFOM I understand, but if me and hectic were scum this would have been an easy win since the team that was initially pushed yesterday was me + dave so all hectic had to do was bus me, kill shelly, lim dave and game would have been over.
There is no motivation for hectic to side with me if we were partners and claim unless he is super impatient especially not when he was being UTR and the only one calling him out in mylo was me.

[duppin]

plus you also realise that shelly actually slipped right? she knew dave would vote with her for no apparent reason.

where was this, please quote
I have evaluated you duppin. You're either scum or a pretty scummy townie.

Then explain why I am a scummy townie?

and she did it in 3985 and also in 4016

[duppin]

that's also a good point. i think it'd be fishy if he lived as obvtown till lylo tho

it would not because if you limmed me then shelly would be 100% confirmed town (unless some weird mylo SvS bus) in which case she would be killed over him and then he just needs to mislim dave

[duppin]

Ultimately her whole sentiment for today is a slip: she has not ever evaluated dave and does not mention him but is 100% confident that dave is voting with her. If she was town she would be trying to evaluate dave and make sure that he is siding with her, but she already knows for some reason

[duppin]

She approached you yesterday and engaged with you, but did not attempt to solve dave. Do you think that is a town mindset? Especially when she tried to push me + dave initially and obviously wanted to lim me first.
Compare that to me, hectic and UNO who were all trying to reach out to dave several times to get him to take a stance. It makes no sense for her as town to not be concerned at all regarding the stance of a slot who has been so inactive. The most logical explanation is simply that they are partners.

[duppin]

i feel like your posts have been more pushing an agenda rather than solving like most of this game. I just haven't seen a solvy mindset from you.

What agenda would that be?

[duppin]

So the Hectic claim changes the picture somewhat but I'll discuss Shelly without that.

Looking at it from the true claim point of view... Prompting your track target to at least crumb/soft if a PR is a +town move when there hasn't been a massclaim. Tracker is a really tricky role to play, especially as 1-shot and even more so as night-specific. I think the targeting on a weak TR is a little weird, unless the TR was semi-fake to instill a false sense of security in the target's ability to get away with making the kill. With 2 scum left and a night-specific shot, she'd be in a use it or lose it position, and tracking a largely scumread target would risk coming up blank because scumread!scum shouldn't make kills. I feel tracker is one of the weakest investigatives. I got really annoyed in the Gay Mafia team game when I saved my tracker shot for later and tracked my target to a kill, but almost got ignored because a couple people kept trying to elim me. I chose a previous TR to track in that game because Occam said the only solve was that one of my TRs had to be scum. Bottom line it's quite possible as a true claim from the mechanics and targeting point of view. There is more to say about Shelly, and balance. I'll make those points later.

From a fake claim point of view, this is an obviously horrible claim.

The

fake claim to make in this position to get a fake guilty is a

watch on the semi-conf player

. I find it hard to believe that a scumteam with daytalk would not hash out a fake claim and make the strategically best claim possible. Fake claiming a track guilty suffers right from the start because it's the investigation type that is statistically least likely to hit prior to getting down to one scum left. In this situation any fake claim that's going to result in lengthy discussion is a massively bad idea.

For balance purposes, if it's a true claim then mafia might have a ninja. The balance that has been revealed so far shows complementary roles, with a mafia doc to complement gunsmith, and weak FN to give a guilty where the gunsmith fails. The rolestopper would reduce the probability of other roles being successful without interfering with NK.

Shelly's handling of Duppin's response was weird, which I already pointed out. You'd think that as either alignment she'd look at what might defeat the role and be prepared for it. As scum she might be prepared for an admission that Duppin did indeed visit Bugs, and have rebuttal prepared for that. Scum!Shelly preparation for Duppin saying he didn't visit should be to just press the case. The "tracker miller" idea shouldn't ever enter her head as scum planning ahead. It shouldn't enter her head as town either, a town tracker is expecting a positive result to be either a TPR visiting or scum. So while it's very weird, I don't think that episode really means anything other than she's a very impulsive player who blurts out thoughts with little or no filtering.

Long story short, I think Shelly's claim is much more likely to be true than it is to be fake, in the absence of Hectic's commuter claim.
Now to cogitate again with that included.

this is pretty indicative of dave siding with shelly. I think what you linked is a pretty big misrep of shelly duppin.

No it is not and I even referenced this post:
Long story short, I think Shelly's claim is much more likely to be true than it is to be fake, in the absence of Hectic's commuter claim.
Now to cogitate again with that included

He believes shellys claim from an analysis of the setup because there are no other PR claims, he hasn't evaluated hectics claim yet

[duppin]

She approached you yesterday and engaged with you, but did not attempt to solve dave. Do you think that is a town mindset? Especially when she tried to push me + dave initially and obviously wanted to lim me first.
Compare that to me, hectic and UNO who were all trying to reach out to dave several times to get him to take a stance. It makes no sense for her as town to not be concerned at all regarding the stance of a slot who has been so inactive. The most logical explanation is simply that they are partners.

why focus dave when she got a track on you

It's not about focusing Dave, it is about evaluating the players like she did with everyone else. She reached out to you to see where your head was. She did not attempt to each out to Dave to find out where he was at.

[duppin]

If you are town then you want to know where everyone is at. Look at UNO since he is the confirmed townie from yesterday, he did the exact same thing. Was trying to look at it from everyones perspective to get a sense of the game state.
Shelly has never been concerned about Dave not voting with her since hectic claimed - sure if she believes the world is hectic and me she believes dave is town, but why would she be so confident that ti means dave would vote with her?

[duppin]

i looked through your early iso. Seems like you've been more pushing for mislims than solving. I also think your early hectic vote/post feels like scum theater.

But you have pushed way more mislims than me? ironically I was called out for not pushing reads day 1, so this seems like a weird read to have. If I was scum it would certainly not be for that

As for your scum theater I have no idea why you believe that to be scum theater to be honest, but I'm not sure I can really contest it too much as it is simply your opinion. I believe you are approaching it with confirmation bias though.

[duppin]

By the way Plus I want you to acknowledge what hectic said in his case the previous day: it is a fact that shelly has lied. Based on your reads you seem to believe it is a towntell. Could you explain this?

[duppin]

I never said it was a towntell
stop freaking misrepping, it's getting on my nerves
i didn't like your push on taylor either
I looked through shelly and dave iso and their equity is really high. Shelly really didn't talk to dave much at all. Shelly is scummier than I thought.
another thing is that hectic thought I was the "key" to getting the town win
like in the duppin/hectic scum world, they only need to convince 1 person to win (besides shelly). If they were scum I think they'd put more effort on getting dave to vote shelly as well.

I was not trying to misrep you, I said that based on your reads (you seem to believe shelly is town) it would indirectly also seem imply you thought it was a town or well perhaps a not alignment indicative thing to do. I suppose I could have phrased it differently, but I don't believe I was misrepping you I am more so trying to engage your read on shelly.

Look I'll take a break and get back to this later, but I appreciate you actually iso diving, feel free to point out anything you dislike about my slot and ill get back to it

[duppin]

okay i just read your last post and perhaps i was a bit too quick as it does seem like you are trying to solve shelly as well now

[duppin]

anyway ill be back in a couple of hours

[duppin]

Oh I am pleasantly surprised Plus, I think I owe you an apology because I must admit that I really did not think you were going to properly evaluate us today after what you said last day.

by the way dave out of curiousity, why didn't you just try to bus shelly now? I understand that it is unlikely that you would have won that way but still, by not doing so i dont think there is any way you are going to persuade people you arent scum

anyway,

VOTE: shelly

[duppin]

Thanks for the game and thanks for modding

Was a fun game but we sure got lucky with that fake claim backfiring!