Newbie 655: Zeroville. (Game Over!)

[Yuu]

Welcome, guys. I'm glad you're in. Wow, 1/3 of the people have been replaced - is that usual in games?


Well, I'd like to

Unvote, vote: WhereIsTony

.

Jon doesn't sit in my first place anymore - though he still looks suspect for me. I'd say for me now my 'rank' stays:
1 - Tony
2 - Jon
3 - Tume

Tume talks a lot and his explanations gave me a new look on him - his explanations make sense to me, and he's trying hard to prove his case against others now, too, instead of just being defensive. That doesn't mean I'm about to forget his previous actions (the whole arguing if Pope did or did not roleclaim as a mean of defense of his role really made me think for a moment he might be scum), but it lessened my suspicions on him.

Jon still sticks out to me, but I'm going to have to go with Tony. He says he already explained himself but actually provided no further information, he gives a fourth vote with no comments, and his short posts still bugg me. He doesn't defend himself with the (repeated all the times someone asks) claim that "the innocent don't need to defend themselves" and that... It might be another point of view, sure, but if you don't show how exactly you're innocent, how am I supposed to believe in you? Anything you say can be used as information about you. Ok, you might find more important to scumhunt, but when you defend yourself, we can see more of your behavior, and that helps town, too. For me, it looks like you think that defend is an act of the mafia, and attack, an act of the town. But don't forget the mafia is attacking, too, and the innocent have to protect themselves against a mislynch.
"I see no problem with short posts if you post frequently" - I don't get that, either. I thought it was about quality, and not quantity.

When you only make short posts, attack and don't defend yourself, I think you're mafia with no knowledge on how to cover your lies and attacks townies to put blame on them. That's what you look to me. On the other hands, your actions made me think. While I've been suspecting Tume for being extremely defensive (and, supposedly, having something to hide - but now he's showing a more balanced game), I'm suspecting you for the exact opposite reason. You said Michel came out as an agressive player, but you seem much more agressive, at least to me. While a defensive game alerts me, and agressive one just screams mafia - town has no reason to be as rushed as you were (still using the example of the fourth vote: you didn't even let Tume, a new player who had only been in the game for a page or so, explain himself before putting him into an extremely dangerous position. If he's actually mafia, it's great, but if he's town and dies, it's just what the mafia wants).

[populartajo]

Thx for the welcome. Im in page 6-7. Im in work right now and Ill post my thoughts later. Until now, the only things Im kinda sure is that Pope is newbie scum, that Yuu is newbie townie and that Mayhem is so town it hurts. Ill should reread the others to talk about them. Later.

[WhereIsTony]

I think frequent short post are as high quality, as occasional long one, obviously someone has less to say than someone who is commenting on a week's worth of post.

I fail to see how pope being scum, is somehow washed away because he was replaced by someone more skilled at lying. The roles have not changed.

And what accusation have I not defended, what defense is there other than "I am town"

What have i been accused of that needs defending exactly. Short post? covered
lack of content - I have provided an indepth case way back when against pope which got almost no comment.

Oh thats right pope is replaced - I guess the new guy has chnged popes role..

The town lucked out that tume was not here from the beignning,.

[WhereIsTony]

A question for all of those who replaced someone.

If you did not know the role of the person you were replacing would you think they were mafia?

[afatchic]

Tony. i actually read some of the thread before i told the mod i would do it. and to answer your question, no. it honestly did not seem like syphen was mafia lurking. i honestly thought he just wasn't here. which was bad on his part to not replace in the beginning, i think.

[WhereIsTony]

That actually matches my take on syphen as well, although i did believe he was lurking at first.

[populartajo]

Finally.
Here we go.

WherisTony

Seems an agressive player. Comments like "I am pretty secure with my vote" at semirandom stages of the game strike me as odd but I guess he was joking. Nice reasoning in the no lynch fiasco (townies come on, lynching is our only weapon again the scum) and diferencing between the newbie tells that I agree. Lately he has gone hard against tume with so so reasoning. To look tomorrow if tume is town. Verdict : neutral.

JonMW

Excited newbie. Strange nervous behavior at the beginning as SDK notices. Bonus points for noticing the Syphen lurking. Loses them with the No lynch suggestion but Ill consider it a newbie slip. However seems a little defensive and worried about others may think. Verdict: neutral to scum.

J_Slr

"I hate lukers" townie. He has been suspecting Syphen all day, an apparent easy target. I feel the majority of his posts have a relaxed tone with the exception of 29 and 30(in the "display posts from users" menu) where he suspects Syphen and somedamnkind but votes for Yuu and where he gives us this little gem:

I have to go with tumescence, attacking someone again and again because they mentioned the possibility they might be roled is a little silly, but continually making it sound like they actually claimed the role is going too far!
That being said I do not want people to stop looking at tumescence,

keep watching him, but also look at Jon

, he really really wants tumescenced lynched and I for one can not really see why?

Verdict:neutral to scum.

Yuu

Typical Newbie. Nervous at the beginning but good reasoning overall.
When I first read her I thought she might be someone experienced faking it but some posts really scream newbie power. However, lately it seems she has started to feel confident and acts a little defensive of tume in some posts. To look if tume is scum. Verdit: neutral to town.

afatchic (replaced Syphen Day 1)

I really liked afatchic's last post. Nice reasoning provided there. The only thing I dislike is the "replacement effect" The fact is that she/he (lol?) replaced Syphen, a lurker with a voting disaster that has claimed vanilla for no reason (!). He dissappeared after. Verdict: neutral to scum for Syphen actions.

tumescence (replaced The Pope's Tiara Day 1)

I really read this player as scum. The Pope's Tiara semiclaimed cop (thats the way I see it) but then he backtracked with his vanilla claim. Then he came up with the No lynch and when I first read it it really semed he was a townie getting frustrated but then he said he was just being ironic. The cherry is his vote for Syphen (echo of everything that was said) his HOS and his salmon of doubt, all consecutive in different players, like trying to deflect the attention. His replacement, tume, seemed to be a newbie ("oops, I think I shouldnt have claimed") but I just think he has more experience of what he says us to have. Also he just went crazy attacking the majority of the players that suspected him.

somedamnkid (replaced hohum Day 1)

This is an strange player. When I first read him in "all posts mode" I thought him as agressive townie but when I checked him in the "only user" menu I found that his stance about some players is very odd.

Because of the reasons I stated above I think Syphen is scum, If he is not scum he is not an active player and won't contribute much to the game. I think it would be better to nip this problem in the bud.
Vote: Syphen

Also his posting is not very frecuent and really stroke me as a possible calculating scum.
Verdict: neutral, slightly scummy.

M4yhem

Not too much to say about him. Im also tired . Overall good reasoning and as I said earlier I find him extremely protown. May be related with the fact that I also like to ask questions and be some kind of leader. Will be very surprised if he's scum. Verdict: neutral to town.

I feel good with my vote being in Tume.

Unvote Vote: Tume

[afatchic]

i was just going back and looking and somehow i missed bolding my unvote, so does it still count or did POP just hammer in the last vote?

and what did you say you saw scummy with me? was it just something syphen did? it confused me a little.

[Erg0]

To avoid any possible perception of bias, my policy is that votes and unvotes are strictly required to be bolded, or they will not be counted. As such, that is indeed a lynch.

[Erg0]

Final Vote Count for Day 1

tumescence 5 (afatchic, JonMW, M4yhem, WhereIsTony, populartajo)

WhereIsTony 3 (somedamnkid, tumescence, Yuu)

Not Voting 1 (J_Slr)

The residents of Zeroville were almost surprised that they'd come to a decision at last: tumescence was mafia (probably) and would have to go. Never big on the concept of deportation, they instead dusted off the old gallows in the town square. After four attempts, two new ropes, a large quantity of WD-40 and the ministrations of the fishmonger's (surprisingly strong) wife, there was a drop, a snap, and a cheer. The mood dimmed a little when a cursory search revealed that tumescence had been carrying no weapons or illicit items - he was a mere townie.

tumescence (Townie) Lynched Day 1.

It is now Night 1. Please have any and all night actions to me within 72 hours of this post.

[Erg0]

Morning breaks in Zeroville, and it's not alone - by the angle of J_Slr's head relative to the rest of him, it appears that his neck has been broken.

J_Slr (Townie) Killed Night 1.

It is now Day 2. With 7 players alive, 4 votes are required for a lynch.

[afatchic]

so what does everyone think about J_slr being NK'ed? Michel had expressed that he didn't like that picture, maybe his thoughts were passed onto Popular, lol. but do yall think that the mafia actually had a serious reason to NK him or did they just do it randomly. maybe that just wanted to get rid of the pic or something if nothing else.

[JonMW]

Well.... looking at how all my efforts were for naught, I guess an apology is in order. Or something. Amazing that after all this time, Pope's most memorable argument has been proved to have some merit, if only circumstantial.

Looking back at how the game progressed yesterday, J_Slr seemed to go against everyone else's grain, not joining any "side" of an argument, preferring to strike out on his own. Sadly, this means that I certainly can't deduce anything by his being the NK victim.... he didn't seem to be threatening anyone particularly hard, and even if he

was

then killing him would only draw suspicion onto his target.
While the rest of us were looking at Tony, tumescence, (and me, in the earlier days) he broke away and nudged Yuu for information.
Surely, we are much poorer for this loss. Perhaps the scum saw that he would only provide the rest of us with so much more information.

It seems like very little useful information can be gleaned from J_Slr's death. We're practically back at the situation we had in Day 1 - nothing to go on but conjecture, wild guesses, fabricated evidence, mountains out of molehills, random acts of aggression and right stirring.

So, let's make with the making of mountains out of molehills!

J_Slr, to me, would not have been an obvious target - I think in simpler terms, go straight for the goal, kind of thing. In the scum's shoes, I'd try to remove people that were an actual threat to me.
Now, it would be too obvious to NK a guy who's dogged me from the start. I would try to identify people that were actually dangerous. Those with power roles... and those with experience. Think - an experienced player is much more likely to be able to put pressure on the right people, to ask the right questions, and get information before it's needed. The ICs, to me, would look like big fat targets that should be removed from play sooner rather than later.

So... why is it that this nigh-harmless player was NKed, and yet the more dangerous ones were left with another attempt to rat out the scums?

M4yhem! Populartajo!

Why are you still alive?

Actually, scratch that. This really isn't how I play games. I love silliness.

M4yhem! Populartajo!

It was you, wasn't it?

[JonMW]

You guys may have the chessboard out, but I'm playing whack-a-mole.

Mallet of Maybe-Justice: M4yhem
Whomping Shovel of Vigilanteism: populartajo

[M4yhem]

so what does everyone think about J_slr being NK'ed?

I have to admit I'm surprised.

but do yall think that the mafia actually had a serious reason to NK him or did they just do it randomly.

Speaking from experience, they probably had a serious reason. When I'm mafia I tend to kill either because
1.I think someone is acting like they have a power role (doc or cop in this game.)
2. The person is on to me or one of my partners
3. I want to frame a townie by killing the person who was going after them hard.
4. The person will be difficult to get lynched.

I think any of these reasons could be used to justify the killing of J_Slr. The problem is, we have no way of knowing which reason, because we don't know how the scum think (if we did, we'd know who they are). So any speculation about why he was killed is exactly that- speculation.

Jon- There are a number of reasons why I might be still alive. Obviously I don't know what the real reason is since only the scum know that but here are a few possibilities:
a. I've been wrong all game and the people I said were least likely to be scum (Yuu and michel-now-populartajo) are scum and are keeping me around so they can laugh at me when they win.
b. You, JonMW, are scum and were afraid that killing me would reflect badly on you, so you decided to try to lynch me instead.
c. Populartajo is scum and thought it would be really obvious if one IC died and the other didn't.
d.The scum want the thrill of beating two IC's face-to-face.
e. Someone thought J_Slr would be harder to lynch than I am, or thought he was more a threat to them than I am.

Anyway...I really dislike that you say we are back at square one. You get a

Fos: JonMW

for that because it's dishearting and innaccurate. For one thing, we now have two confirmed townies, tumesence/pope's and J_Slr. I'd suggest that everybody reread those two players in isolation (there's a thing at the bottom of the page that says 'view all posts by..').

We cannot always trust tumesence/Pope and J_Slr to be right but we can trust them to be truthful, which is very valuable at this point.

Also, everyone who helped lynch a townie, including me, should be forced to give an account of their actions. We'll start with JonMW- why did you vote for tumesence/Pope's? Why did you keep your vote on him dispite his defence? He was going after you pretty hard at one point, did that factor into your vote? Are you scum?

Rereading J_Slr, he was significatly suspicious of the following people: Syphen, somedamnkid, whereistony, JonMW.
He went after Syphen mainly for lurking. It's a shame he never really commented on afatchic because I'd like to have known if he changed his mind.
He started off suspicious of somedamnkid for agression but changed his mind just before he died.
He was becoming more suspicious of whereistony, based on somedamnkid's case.
And he had a few digs at JonMW.
Personally I think he was wrong about somedamnkid. Agression to me is a neutral trait, more about the player than the role.
I'd say he might have been onto something with Tony and Jon.

[somedamnkid]

I can't say I am greatly surprised at Tume being a townie. We based suspicion on him because of what Pope did, Which was being confused. I was in the process of writing a big list of reasons to lynch Tume when Erg0 locked the game. While I was reading through Pope's posts, as objectively as I could, it crossed my mind that maybe he was just confused. But one thing stood out to me like a drunken bear in a ballet and that was JonMW. If Pope/Tume was a confused newbie, JonMW seemed to be sinisterly taking advantage of him. He based his attack on very little evidence. I also recall him being very concerned as to how M4yhem was voting. Tony also could be viewed as taking advantage of Pope/Tume.

Sugar-Coated Gumdrop of Violent Aggression: JonMW

As for the NK I am a little surprised, if I were scum I would have killed M4yhem for being a leader, or Yuu for not being suspicious. But J_Slr was also very low on people's scum lists. As for the possibility of a revenge NK, If the scum is JonMW it is very possible seeing as in post 200 Jon admits that he can be motivated by revenge and J_Slr was calling for people to look at Jon. That could explain why J_Slr died instead of the juicier targets of Yuu and M4yhem.

[Yuu]

I'm as lost as ou as why J_Slr was killed. I think it's better if we, after thinking about some possible reasons, go discarding what could't be first. The problem in finding the reason why J_Slr was killed is that if we find the wrong reason, the logic beyond the thought will lead us to wrong people (at least I think - you experienced players could help here, I have no way to confirm if that really happens, but for me it seems it would).

J_Slr hadn't been particularly attacking anyone, he changed votes many times. Only if mafia felt really threatened by some of those posts I think there'd be a reason for they killing him, so I agree we should watch who J_Slr was after. But he wasn't the only one thinking about Tony and/or Jon - SDK and me, for example, were too (and even the latest Tume, as everyone can see by the votation). So while they might be mafia (heck, I'm not changing my opinion until I see them again) who felt threatened by a particular post, I think we should look at other probabilities.

[afatchic]

what does everyone think of Popular? he was the one that hammered tum. in his first post. anyone else find this a little anti-town.

[populartajo]

Since I can see this being a very possible problem specially in newbie land, I would explain my motives for hammering Tume.

Yes I knew I was possibly hammering Tume (taking in count the bolding problem). I dont have problems with it and you with decent reasoning shouldnt have it. He was 100% scum in my read. (Read my case against him for more reference.) and the only thing I would like to ask afatchic (and anyone attacking this point) is that if you could have hammered tume what would you have done?

Also, take in count that almost all poeple here were asking for his lynch. I dont understand whats the reasoning for going after the hammer. (Oh yeah he hammered, he must be scum!) I dont like that last post of afatchic, she's like asking for someone to put a case and take advantage of it. Explain please why you think my hammer is antitown.

FoS:afatchic.

Now I wouldnt recommend speculating too much in the NK. As Mayhem ( why are you alive?) points out, scum could have had millions of motivations for killing J_Slr. IMO and from my experience, speculating for one would lead us to inaccurate conclusions, specially in his case as a relaxed tone player. What I strongly suggest all people here is to reread tume as an easy target for scum and watch the motives behind the people that attacked her since IT IS EXTREMELY possible that there is one or maybe both scum in their wagon.

So of the wagoners, I find Tony attacks extremely agressive (as stated in my first post) and just like he knew tume was a townie about to get lynched. Of all the atackers Im pretty sure that he has more possibilities of being scum so

Vote: Tony

As for the reactions after night, Im finding Jon's posts extremely protown. I dont undestand the case against him. Theres something strange in the way he seems to have gained confidence but his reasoning is valid for the excited newbie read I had of him. Why are you jumping against him?

[Yuu]

I don't see why a 5th vote is anti-town. Scum has to be lynched some way, if no one does the last vote, how we're going to lynch it? Nobody could be for sure if Tume was or wasn't scum, and it will be like that with everyone - we can only be sure once the person is dead. In the same way he wasn't, he could've been.

I think it's highly improbable (but not impossible, of course) for scum to give the last vote. It attracts attention (I mean, who didn't take a second look at Populartajo when he announced his vote and Erg0 said Tume was dead? First I had assumed he had counted the unvote in his calculations, but now he said he didn't) so it seems to me they wouldn't do that.

[afatchic]

Popular, i must have worded my post wrong. i didn't meant that i found it scummy, i just meant does anyone else find it scummy. i was not trying to attack you, just to get some conversation going and see what people are thinking right now, and get reactions. and your reaction has kind of scared me, cuz i has you as pro-town all the way, but you seem to have gotten a little to defensive there over a one like statement asking what people thought.

and as for your question, no i wouldn't have hammered right there. hence, why i tried to unvote. not that i didn't find his actions scummy, i just don't like to hammer in my first post into a game. it seems to draw to much suspicion on yourself and away from the mafia. and i like to have the chance to ask some of my own questions before he gets hammered but i think he was V/La if im not mistaken.

[populartajo]

Popular, i must have worded my post wrong. i didn't meant that i found it scummy, i just meant does anyone else find it scummy. i was not trying to attack you, just to get some conversation going and see what people are thinking right now, and get reactions. and your reaction has kind of scared me, cuz i has you as pro-town all the way, but you seem to have gotten a little to defensive there over a one like statement asking what people thought.

and as for your question, no i wouldn't have hammered right there. hence, why i tried to unvote. not that i didn't find his actions scummy, i just don't like to hammer in my first post into a game. it seems to draw to much suspicion on yourself and away from the mafia. and i like to have the chance to ask some of my own questions before he gets hammered but i think he was V/La if im not mistaken.

I wasnt defensive. Ive seen many situations where the hammer is heavily suspected and wagoned to death specially in newbie games, even though all the town wanted the lynch. Its not good reasoning and is probably motivated for some kind of rejection to the hammer.
And as an advice for posterior games, Id be more suspicious of someone that just said "guys, this guys is scum and he deserves to die" but doesnt vote for him.
...........
Errr, just curious, why do you think I was protown if I only have three posts in the game and you just asked al the people here if they found my first post antitown?

[M4yhem]

I think afatchic is backpedalling like crazy...

Generally, if you ask a question like that, the implication is that you think there might be something scummy worth discussing.

I agree with Yuu; hammering is no more scummy than any other vote that helps to kill a townie.

[JonMW]

what does everyone think of Popular? he was the one that hammered tum. in his first post. anyone else find this a little anti-town.

I wouldn't trust populartajo as far as I can throw him. Which is, incidentally, not very far (I throw like a girl).

I'm looking at his last post. Suddenly, he's all hugs and kisses for me, and trying to eliminate the #2 on the big lynch-list that we compiled yesterday. Popular, I expected better from an IC. You obviously don't have what it takes to fill michel's shoes. Then again, few people have michel's particular skill at avoiding suspicion. Have we all read his "famous" game where he won as scum?
I know that just because he is capable of doing this again doesn't automatically make him guilty. Just bear with me a moment.

So, let's assume that he

is

scum. He's wasting no time on getting rid of the next easiest target, and attempting to make peace with me. Then, I would outright predict that I am going to be NKed tonight.
His reasoning is a bit like this: "Obviously, someone who is friends with a townie is a townie himself."
Casting me in a good light, and then going to act all surprised when my body's found tomorrow.

Vote: populartajo

However.... if I'm actually right, then I don't have a clue who his partner would be.

[JonMW]

Whoops, I didn't mean "last post". I actually meant post #268