Mini 645 - Innocence Falls (Game Over)

[Cass]

This game seems to have a lot of one-on-one fights, which seems to be making it hard for us to decide on a lynch. Still, I think it's time we start working towards one. I obviously think Karne is scum, but either nobody agrees with me, or we're all too busy with our private crusades to look at the cases of others. So, in hopes of moving things along, I'll do some rereading of player interactions. I'm going to start with Ythill:

Ythill:

attacked TPT from the beginning, somewhat stubbornly but not too aggressively. Then he went after Nuriens for a long time, aggressively (calling him scum etc.) He disliked my request to focus on someone else for a bit, but he did express some doubt about Nuriens at the same time. He then makes a (not very strong) case on Habit. Backtracks a bit, slowly, on the nuriens attack. He asks repeatedly for people to tell if they think Nuriens is a noob. He defends Habit after his emotional outburst. He thinks I was scummy in that whole situation for fosing but not voting.

An interesting quote:

My only real problem with the Goat case is that he doesn't seem to have any doubt, which is unsettling but may be a function of his playstyle.

We could say exactly the same thing about Ythills playstyle, so this is a somewhat strange thing for him to say. Not long after, he votes Jahudo, on what feels like a pretty opportunistic case - going with Goat. Again, he keeps plenty of doubt open on Jahudo being scum.

He never mentions Matin/Karne until this quote:

Karne seems solid which is odd, because Matin was on my suspect list.

Yet he never named Karne as such, must have been one of his unnamed suspects (very convenient to have some of those to later fall back on...)

He calls Sirdan slippery, and syas:

@sirdan: Look back at my scum-list, votes, and cases. Rest assured that if I vote for you or push you toward the noose, I will do so with an evidence-based case that gives you something to defend against.

Yet in his next post, he changes his vote from Jahudo to Sirdan: "for the previously stated reasons." Sirdan of course comments on this and he responds with:

For now, I will say that one of the chief reasons I put my vote on you was that Jah has defended well against me and you are next in line for scrutiny. But I do have a case (it was eluded by a couple of my posts including the definition of "slippery") and I will post it as soon as I have time.

When heposts the case a bit later, I have to admit it is a pretty convincing case. However, het then goes into it so aggressively that confusing chaos descends again.

Conclusions:

A bad vibe off the first part of the day (before the replacements), some of his posts feel quite dishonest and there are a few contradictions. He seems very tunnelvisioned in his attacks, yet he keeps all his options open. Those could be (weak) scumtells. I feel a connection to habitang, though this is of course irrelevant until one of them flips.
His recent attack on Sirdan seems stronger and more honest. I may dislike the style in which he attacks, but the case itself seems solid.


I'll reread Sirdan/TPT next, to see how I feel about Ythill's case on him after that.

[Cass]

TPT:

random omgus votes Goat. Votes Ythill, sarcastically, this also seems to be omgus. More sarcasm, then a horrible, horrible self-vote. None of his posts seem to contain anything useful. Votes ectomancer for word-use (??) He... I don't know... that is the most anti-town play I've seen yet, from an otherwise intelligent coherent poster.... Then he disappears.

Tritch:

Made only one post, suggesting that the people voting for him were scum (specifically, nhat and me). Then disappeared.

Sirdanilot:

Comes in with some very weak, vague reads on people. Then makes a case on Goat (but doesn't vote or FoS!), throws suspicion on Simenon and on everyone on the habit wagon. He ignored my request to talk about his predecessors, but later answered Ythill's repeated request. He goes on about his case on goat, but in fact never votes him. After some badgering, he decides that Ythill is scum for attacking him, and omgus votes him.

Conclusions:

I find it hard to decide. Scum? Or frustrated and insecure town? I did hate the play of TPT and Tritch. But his defenseand his overall response to Ythill attacking him do not strike me as scummy. On the other hand, he hasn't done anything terribly pro-town either. I'm not convinced he's town, but I don't think he's the best lynch either.

This Ythill vs. Sirdan thing reminds me of the Simenon vs. Nuriens thing - a lot of noise and chaos, people getting upset, and neither party looks much better than the other. Which makes me think it might well be two townies fighting.

[nureins]

This game seems to have a lot of one-on-one fights, which seems to be making it hard for us to decide on a lynch.

I agree. But I do not mind either to continue this day. If a sufficient number of people express the desire of approaching views, I would accept it however.

Still, I think it's time we start working towards one. I obviously think Karne is scum, but either nobody agrees with me, or we're all too busy with our private crusades to look at the cases of others.

citizen is high in my scumeter, but the absence of his comments and how he hides of his accusations towards you and me makes me difficult to judge him more seriously. Ive decided to quickly answer your post to give him more "pairing" observations, so giving him the chance to build a case on us.

It is just "one observation" the one I have on citizen, and he has not elaborated. Thus, it is difficult to judge.

If you want my view on who I might lynch, right now is sirdanilot. Then simenon. Undoubtly I wouldnt mind a serious bandwagon on citizen. I no longer would lynch ythill though he is not one of my serious townies. I have a couple of people flying down, but i wouldnt either lynch them probably.

[sirdanilot]

I was wondering why you aren't suspicious of anyone at all yet after such a long time? Who do you find the most suspicious and why?

Citizen Karne looks pretty scummy to me right now, but that is partially his avoidance to my questions for the past two weeks. It looks too easy for him to agree at face value with Simenon’s summary of nureins “Respond to contrary opinion by repeating bad argument…” and not saying anything himself, especially since he is voting for him.

For now though,

FoS: Citizen Karne

Ew. Why did you not FoS or vote him (or anyone else) before I asked? Why did you need my question to do so? I am not fond of this reply...

On to Ythill. I am going to accuse you of cherry-picking here. You did not address all my points, and you didn't quote the points you addressed entirely so I had to look up what they were about.

How is that scummy, actually. Why can't you explain that by a townie who got a tad frustrated there and used a different word choice.

I've just seen scum do it more than town is all. I've seen a few really bad players do it as town, but you don't strike me as that bad of a player. Just scummy.

You have failed to say why it is scummy in my case.

Wait, I already know the reason. 'You're scum, and this would be a very effective tactic for scum, so this brings more suspicion on you.'

You say that I don't

strike

you as a bad player. So basically, the fact that I give you a scum vibe is the reason that you find this scummy.

Now, I was very disappointed that you didn't reply to the following. It was probably really easy to skip this, wasn't it.

So the first one to make an, uhm, 'inane' comment wins the tie?

Do you get what I'm getting at here.

Reply.

Do you say that you are only going to be pro-town as an exception to the rule?

Not quite. I say that I'm only going to repeat myself as an exception to the rule. There's enough people grumbling about long posts as it is. They can read the evidence I've already posted, and so can you.

It wasn't really so much about repeating. When you posted your case that was based on paraphrases, you did not make it clear that those were paraphrases and you did not mention off what lines that I said you based them. Because of that, that case was flawed and scummy. Your case was less scummy when you actually backed it up. Is this going to be an exception to the rule? Do you not think that would be anti-town?

Also, you skipped this

Okay, and I defended myself against that because I acknowledged that I said something among the line of that paraphrase.

I made one argument where I accidentally assumed his alignment, and I was wrong when I did it.

Well... see... at first you were saying that you didn't make any. And I was saying that you'd made a few. Now you're saying that you've only made one, while I'm still saying that you've made a few. So your story is changing but mine isn't. Interesting.

You only showed me one. Therefore, you are lying, because unless you proof otherwise, I have only made one such comment. Do you think that this is pro-town behaviour?

(1) Bolded part is an attack on me as a person. Sorry, but I don't tolerate that. (2) This is a game and my vocabulary doesn't matter at all in this game.

(3) And again you didn't reply to the point itself.

(1) My apologies. I was using in-game examples (inane, asinine, essence) to demonstrate how facts trump opinions. Didn't intend to do more than rattle you and gain information... won't go there again. You have a great command of English for someone who speaks it as a second language.

(2) Correct, but someone

pretending

a poor vocabulary to sidestep arguments is

very

relevant. It seems to me, now, that your lack of understanding was honest, at least in those three cases.

(3) I've already replied to the point. I addressed (factually) why nuriens' summary wasn't underhanded, and so did he. I'm not going through it again.

(3) No, you only said that what he did was fair and that you thought it was pro-town of him. You didn't participate in the actual debate about nurein's summary. You did not defend each bit of it explaining why it was a good summary.

To my detractors:

Wait. Dictionary definition:
de·tract Audio Help /dɪˈtrækt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[di-trakt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used without object)
1. to take away a part, as from quality, value, or reputation (usually fol. by from).
–verb (used with object)
2. to draw away or divert; distract: to detract another's attention from more important issues.

So you call anyone not me as people who take away from your case against me? Wow, you must be really tunnelvisioned, so much that you think other people are just bugging you. How was that comment pro-town?

Or am I missing something here.

My next post will contain bits that you did not reply to. It will be quite big, most likely.

TPT:

random omgus votes Goat. Votes Ythill, sarcastically, this also seems to be omgus. More sarcasm, then a horrible, horrible self-vote. None of his posts seem to contain anything useful. Votes ectomancer for word-use (??) He... I don't know... that is the most anti-town play I've seen yet, from an otherwise intelligent coherent poster.... Then he disappears.

Tritch:

Made only one post, suggesting that the people voting for him were scum (specifically, nhat and me). Then disappeared.

I commented on the play of my predecessors. I do not agree with the self-vote and I can only explain it with that TPT was a frustrated newbie town. Tritch simply disappeared, nothing to get from that.

Sirdanilot:

Comes in with some very weak, vague reads on people. Then makes a case on Goat (but doesn't vote or FoS!), throws suspicion on Simenon and on everyone on the habit wagon.

Everyone on the habit wagon? Please go on and elaborate on this.

I explained why I did not FoS goat and why I did FoS Simenon.

He ignored my request to talk about his predecessors, but later answered Ythill's repeated request.

Show me where I ignored your request. I thought we had agreed to the fact that nobody requested this?

He goes on about his case on goat, but in fact never votes him. After some badgering, he decides that Ythill is scum for attacking him, and omgus votes him.

Horrible, absolutely horrible simplification of how it really went. You know damn well why I voted Ythill, and it was anything but simple OMGUS. I would have certainly voted him even if he did that to someone else.

Conclusions:

I find it hard to decide. Scum? Or frustrated and insecure town? I did hate the play of TPT and Tritch. But his defenseand his overall response to Ythill attacking him do not strike me as scummy. On the other hand, he hasn't done anything terribly pro-town either. I'm not convinced he's town, but I don't think he's the best lynch either.

Tritch didn't play. Can you name players who have done 'horribly pro-town' things, and what did they do?

This Ythill vs. Sirdan thing reminds me of the Simenon vs. Nuriens thing - a lot of noise and chaos, people getting upset, and neither party looks much better than the other. Which makes me think it might well be two townies fighting.

I actually agree. However, I am doubting more and more that Ythill is a towny, he keeps cutting out big parts of my posts and cherry picking only tiny parts. I don't see how town would do that.

Anyway Cass, I was a bit disappointed with this read. I would have expected something more thorough and better, but you simply mentioned a very simplistic version of reality without really adding anything.

In my next posts I will put the things that Ythill ignored, and I may check Simenon as I don't have a clear picture of what he actually contributed in the last few pages.

[sirdanilot]

Ythill, reply to the following posts. If you continue your evasive and cherry picking playstyle, you're just going to continue confirming yourself more as a scum. And there are many more things you didn't reply to.

2. What I said:

Goat is suspicious because he did something that he might have done as scum…

, which was in reference to the following statement from my initial case (#517): “Goat is scum because he did something that Goat might have done if he was scum.”

This statement was, of course, inspired by your #463 (“People were starting to suspect Goat for not participating, so he might have wanted to suddenly participate more, and you know that scum are paranoid.”).

Alright then. See, this is pro-town behavior. You now win that particular argument in a pro-town way, by backing it up with something I said. Point taken.
Can you show any other places where I said things like that?

The ironic part is that, in rereading to find those quotes, I found more evidence against you. I’ll post it below.

No, how is it anti-town to allow someone who is accused to defend themselves?

I'm only going to say this one more time. I'm giving you the chance to defend yourself. I am not giving you the chance to smokescreen with garbage.

See, you really don't seem to understand me here. What you perceive as 'smokescreening with garbage' is my defense, whether you like it or not.

And, quantity=/= quality.

I addressed the quality issue at length. See, this is how slippery arguing works. Sirdan-scum posts explicit suspicions that do not match his stated evidence (serious scumtell); Ythill points this out, addressing the quality and quantity of sirdan-scum's evidence; sirdan-scum blathers around the accusation, pretending not to understand it; Ythill simplifies the accusation, addressing only quantity; sirdan-scum then argues that it was the quality of the evidence, not the quantity, which motivated him.

Anybody with a sixth grade reading level can see what you're doing if they take the time to go back and read our argument.

Why don't you reply to the actual point, and quote my entire bit there.

And, quantity=/= quality. I saw Simenon's general attitude, even though that was one of his few scumtells, as worthy of a FoS, and even though I listed a lot about Goatrevolt I wanted to work out the case using his defense before coming to my conclusion. Quite honestly, I'm pretty satisfied with goat now.

Reply.

You did it yourself more than once.

And you actually did do this yourself (sirdan-scum and chips anyone? you're going to hang, scum etc.).

What I did: suspect you, post evidence that has not been refuted, read your reactions to that evidence as scummy, come to the conclusion that you are scum, treat you as if you are scum.

No, what you did is: suspect me, vote me without having backed it up yet, post a more than decent attack, throw it by saying 'hahaha whatever scum' and not giving me the chance to defend'

You cannot know for sure that I am scum. It's impossible. Therefore, you should treat me like someone you suspect. If you start treating me like I'm scum, you start reading into the past, and, with your 'knowledge' that I am scum, you keep seeing more and more scum tells.

What you did: seem like you suspect Goat; post unreliable evidence that was refuted by several players; make arguments that assume Goat's alignment, using them to back up your flawed case; claim that you never thought Goat was scum because you never said it; drop the subject.

I made

one

argument where I accidentally assumed his alignment, and I was wrong when I did it. And I didn't really drop the subject, but obviously this discussion with you takes up way more time.

I explained this point in an earlier post, and you did not reply to it. Because I properly defended myself when you brought up this accusation using a concrete case, you decided to bring it up abstractly?

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here, because I may have missed a valid point in your mountains of bullshit. Quote your response or point me to it and I'll address it directly.

Why goat's lurking was notable? You're just reversing things here. Why is Goat's lurking any less worse when there are big lurkers around? The fact that there are lurkers in this game only reinforces my point that goat knows he can hide under the radar. I didn't even dodge this. Please quote the part where I dodged this. I even recall saying this exact same thing a while ago.
And with the 'essence' thing, with 'the essence of SirD's post' he is basically doing the same as he did first, namely using his own flawed summary to reply to my case, which is why I said that.

And again you didn't reply to the point itself. How did you call that? Slippery!

Because I feel he misinterpreted my case, and showed it incorrectly to the rest of the town, and that it could perhaps even be used by scum as 'evidence'.
Oh wait, that already happened.

You asked, why would a townie do X. I replied. I did something because I felt I was misinterpreted and I tried to correct that. You did not reply to the actual point. I am getting the feeling you did this even more often in your arguments against me.

Now, a quick one-player thread on Simenon shows that his most recent posts are nothing more but catchy one liners and clever questions. And most of those questions address details only.

Simenon, do you think that your play style is helpful to the town?

Do you think that the fact that Ythill ignored all the points that I quoted above is pro-town?

[pacman281292]

Now, a quick one-player thread on Simenon shows that his most recent posts are nothing more but catchy one liners and clever questions. And most of those questions address details only.

Simenon, do you think that your play style is helpful to the town?

Do you think that the fact that Ythill ignored all the points that I quoted above is pro-town?

I agree with this. He is trying to attack habitang/me and nureins with those little-sense posts. I think that some explanations are needed. I understand the case against me (habitang made an awesome job creating a huge case against him). But I still think that he must give some explanations to all us .

[Simenon]

Simenon, do you think that your play style is helpful to the town?

If we are to take your depiction as accurate (I personally find it unfair), then I don't see how it can possibly hurt. I'm asking what I think are the right questions; vague and inconsistent language that should at the very least be cleared up. Could I be doing more? Certainly. But as I've said, this game is very hard to get into, and I have a lot of work to do. So here it is.

Do you think that the fact that Ythill ignored all the points that I quoted above is pro-town?

What exactly are you asking here?

[Ythill]

@ Goat:

Also, you dodged the initial question of "why is it helpful or pro-town."

I didn't dodge it. I turned it around on you. It isn't my job to prove that I'm town. The burden of proof lies with the accuser.

Yes, I can. Doing something like this can be used to manufacture additional suspicion on someone that isn't real.

Would you believe it if I only posted "sirdan-is-scum" without other evidence? Have I done so? Don't tell me about "can." Tell me about "did."

Yes, it is pro-town to try to lynch scum. Is it pro-town to try and lynch Ythill's target?

For Ythill, absolutely. You decide whether you agree with me.

Repitious declaration and certainty in belief do not make sirdanilot more likely to be scum. Nor are they meaningful whatsoever in determining whether or not he is scum.

I agree 100%. His actions (which I've noted) make him more likley to be scum. His habits in responding (which I've noted) are meaningful in determining whether he is scum. Repititious declaration and certainty in belief punctuate his slippery blather, reminding y'all of those actions and responses. Among other things.

So rather than merely present your points against sirdan and why you think that makes him scum...

I did that. First I attacked Pope a little. Then I came back to call sirdan slippery, then I explained why. Then I voted him, citing that explanation. Then I elaborated at his request. Then I answered 651248071249512487 questions that did nothing but distract from the case. Then he posted 8612481248651234 more and I decided it was time to stop being nice.

But don't take my word for it, go back and read it.

Aren't you doing the exact thing you grilled me about but to an even larger extent?

The phrase "grilled me" is misleading bombast. I mentioned it as a single point of doubt about your alignment, and it came with the qualifier "but may be a function of his playstyle." You know, like it is of mine.

Furthermore, when I spoke of your surety, it was about a PbPA which, in many instances, are a neutral examination of a player leading to a conclusion of alignment. Plus it was earlier in the day. Your surety was of a different context than my own.

@ Cass:

He never mentions Matin/Karne until this quote:

Karne seems solid which is odd, because Matin was on my suspect list.

Yet he never named Karne as such, must have been one of his unnamed suspects (very convenient to have some of those to later fall back on...)

Untrue. In post #215 I said, "Nuriens is still my PE#1. Matin and habit are looking suspicious to me." At the time, he was in my top three.

Of my interactions with sirdan you say, "I may dislike the style in which he attacks, but the case itself seems solid." Of sirdan, you say, "I find it hard to decide. Scum? Or frustrated and insecure town?" Please explain how both of these can be true.

[Ythill]

@ sirdan-scum:

In defining detract, you missed the archaic definition: “to speak ill of, belittle.” All I said was a variation of

to my accusers

. I’d advise against semantic arguments.

I am going to accuse you of cherry-picking here.

I’ve replied to what I found relevant. If I post enough to show that you are dishonest, then I’ve done my job. Here’s some more cherries for y’all…

You have failed to say why it is scummy in my case.

Lie.

In #595 I said, "I've seen a few really bad players do it as town, but you don't strike me as that bad of a player." Since you paraphrased this, you can’t plead ignorance here.

When you posted your case that was based on paraphrases, you did not make it clear that those were paraphrases...

Lie.

I refrained from placing the words in a block quote or quotation marks. I

did

post them in italics, which I've used to paraphrase before.

You only showed me one.

Lie.

I cited (and quoted) your #s 437, 444, & 463. I even separated them into two types of assumption (experience level means can’t be read as town, and did something he might have done as scum) which were numbered. This is all in my post #568, but was also repetition of things I’d already stated and explained. You quoted the cites from #568 so, again, you can’t plead ignorance.

No, you only said that what he did was fair and that you thought it was pro-town of him.

Lie.

In #517 I said, “It did rip out some of the rhetoric (example: it called tunnel-vision and out-of-context scumtells rather than alluding to them as such by calling the PbPA process scummy from an experienced player), but was also pretty fair.” Which I repeated and expanded on in #529 when I said, “He didn't manipulate anything. He simplified by removing your own misleading rhetoric. And said he was doing so. And invited you to correct him.” You even quoted me saying this in #532, so you can’t plead ignorance this time either.

Seriously people… why are more of you not on this wagon?

[sirdanilot]

I am going to accuse you of cherry-picking here.

I’ve replied to what I found relevant.

If I post enough to show that you are dishonest, then I’ve done my job.

Here’s some more cherries for y’all…

You are wrong.

If that is your definition of scumhunting, then this debate is over. You didn't reply to the points I told you to reply to, and you blatantly continued what you were doing. You are not helpful to the town in doing so and I am now pretty damn sure that you are in fact scum.

You only showed me one.

Lie.

I cited (and quoted) your #s 437, 444, & 463. I even separated them into two types of assumption (experience level means can’t be read as town, and did something he might have done as scum) which were numbered. This is all in my post #568, but was also repetition of things I’d already stated and explained. You quoted the cites from #568 so, again, you can’t plead ignorance.

Now, you may have a point here. I do not have the time to research this right now and I am going away over the weekend but I'll get to this eventually. This is the only actual point so far that you have against me. All the rest are either based on the assumption that I am scum or I defended myself properly against them.

Seriously people… why are more of you not on this wagon?

Because you are cherry-picking and lying?

Seriously, doesn't anyone see what he is doing here? He purposely continues to do something that I asked him not to do. He rips my arguments out of context and then calls them lies. No shit, if you rip them out they may very well say something that I didn't imply at all. He keeps badgering that I am 'sirdan-scum'.

First, I quoted his entire post and say why even the cherry picked points where false, but I decided to just cut them all out as there's no use. He is going to continue what he is doing. I say we lynch Ythill. There's no way that a towny would do something like this. He is only distracting the town with his continuous badgering and conviction that someone is scum.

I am now almost fully convinced that Ythill is not a tunnel visioned towny. I cannot possibly imagine a towny this tunnel visioned. And, Ythill, if you do flip town, then I think you should change your play style. It is not effective at all. You just convince yourself that someone is scum and you do everything to make sure they are. This is not an effective scum hunting technique. You simply cut out any good defenses that I have to make me fit into the picture.

On to simenon.

Simenon, do you think that your play style is helpful to the town?

If we are to take your depiction as accurate (I personally find it unfair),

How

is it unfair. Back this up.

then I don't see how it can possibly hurt. I'm asking what I think are the right questions; vague and inconsistent language that should at the very least be cleared up. Could I be doing more? Certainly. But as I've said, this game is very hard to get into, and I have a lot of work to do. So here it is.

Not bad =/= not anti town. You have to actually contribute. Now, what I am going to say is not that I assume you are scum, but I think you could imagine that it could be possible that someone started thinking you were scum, desperately trying to avoid getting into really big debates (such as ythill-me) but also trying not to lurk. Could you give us the town version of your behaviour (ie. clarify your behaviour while assuming that you are town)?

Do you think that the fact that Ythill ignored all the points that I quoted above is pro-town?

What exactly are you asking here?

Horrible. Absolutely horrible. Just answer the question please. Yes or no with an explanation.

[Ythill]

See, Sim? Now he's doing it to you.

[nureins]

See, Sim? Now he's doing it to you.

A serious question, Ythill. Do you think something else can be extracted from your (our) conversation with Sirdan ? Now I fully understand Cass petition when we played a beautiful dance.

Without any doubt, I do not pretend you to stop your hunt, especially coz sirdan is my top scum. But I also think positions are pretty clear, as you said. Everybody can read you and your critiques on sirdan. Of course, if somebody else thinks your case is a fake, defend yourself and explain your case on sirdan. But right now, I guess there is nothing else you (we) can do.

Let people express their opinions and then lets see what happens. Who are your other suspects, ythill ? And maybe everybody can give 2 or 3 names (Id like the reasons of everybody if they are not pretty clear, but hey, Ill not repeat asking). That way maybe we can try to decide (or wagon) on someone, as we are far away from an agreement...

Suspect count?
Sirdan - Simenon - (Citizen only if a decision is very hard to reach)

[Ythill]

A serious question, Ythill. Do you think something else can be extracted from your (our) conversation with Sirdan?

Sorry man, I don't understand what you're asking. Could you rephrase?

I agree that it's time for everyone to list their suspects. The reason? The thread is getting loaded down with info and I feel like we should be moving towards a lynch before the mod deadlines us. So I'd like to start talking about consensus.

Obviously, sirdan is my top pick. Seems like a lot of people don't support that (even though nobody has actually defended him, as requested) so I feel like I might have to compromise. Which is okay. There's always future days for lynching sirdan-scum and I feel that it is equally likely to happen whether I live or die tonight.

I've performed a pretty thorough examination of nuriens and Jah. The former, I believe, is n00b town and I'd rather not hang him. The latter seemed to clear himself but I'm still wary of him. I'd be okay with a Jah lynch if none of my other choices was viable, but I will not advocate it.

My other suspects are somewhat minor. Both Cass and nhat have struck me as scummy from time to time. Matin is also pretty high on my list, though my initial impression of Karne cleared him somewhat. I believe I'd be willing to compromise-lynch any of these three, but I'd have to reread before actually placing my vote.

Pacman (habit) would be an excellent information lynch, but I don't really find him very scummy. I might be tempted to hammer this guy if no better options were available but, again, that would depend on the situation at the time.

On everyone else I have either a null or town read ATM, and I'd probably argue against lynching any of them them unless one of them drops a smoking gun or some such thing.

[Cass]

Citizen Karne is obviously my top pick. Right now I'd be willing to compromise on (in no particular order) Sirdan, Pacman (habit) and Ythill. All of these might be scum and their lynches would yield information.

[nureins]

A serious question, Ythill. Do you think something else can be extracted from your (our) conversation with Sirdan?

Sorry man, I don't understand what you're asking. Could you rephrase?

Sure, my english is not so bad. The previous post was a quick one.
Do you really think your wagon on sirdan can produce new interesting output?
But you already answered by exposing your suspects...

There is something I didnt understand in your post. First I laughed a lot. Consistent with the image I have of you, you listed 6!! out of 11 players as people you could lynch. So I tried to wonder who your top were, to analyze easily the votes and suspicions of everybody. And I got lost.

Clearly, Sirdan is number 1.

But you mention jah, a group of 3 minor and one "information-townie" lynch, pac. With pac I guess I simply have not played games to understand exactly the purpose of a "informative-townie" lynch, but anyway, I do not want to add noise, so if you think about scum-theory, please abstain to answer me

But about jah, you said:

"... but I'm still wary of him. I'd be okay with a Jah lynch if none of my other choices was viable, but I will not advocate it"

does this mean jah is below your minor suspects?
your only important suspect is therefore sirdan?
or is jah your second suspect (and then choices is choice singular)?

A clarification is welcome...

[nureins]

A serious question, Ythill. Do you think something else can be extracted from your (our) conversation with Sirdan?

Sorry man, I don't understand what you're asking. Could you rephrase?

Sure, my english is not so bad. The previous post was a quick one.
Do you really think your wagon on sirdan can produce new interesting output?
But you already answered by exposing your suspects...

There is something I didnt understand in your post. First I laughed a lot. Consistent with the image I have of you, you listed 6!! out of 11 players as people you could lynch. So I tried to wonder who your top were, to analyze easily the voting and suspicions of everybody. And I got lost.

Clearly, Sirdan is number 1.

But you mention jah, a group of 3 minor and one "information-townie" lynch, pac. With the last of this group I guess I simply have not played games to know what this means. But about jah, you said:

"... but I'm still wary of him. I'd be okay with a Jah lynch if none of my other choices was viable, but I will not advocate it"

does this mean jah is below your minor suspects?
your only important suspect is therefore sirdan?
Jah is your second one and then the minor?

A very short clarification is welcome, because that way I can have an idea of which the 2-3 top suspects of everybody are...

[nureins]

opsss, sorry for the multipost, i did a preview and then both posts appeared haha...
sorry sorry. Answer whichever you wish, ythill

[Simenon]

How

is it unfair. Back this up.

The burden of proof is

not

on me here.

Not bad =/= not anti town.

Yes, it necessarily means it's not anti-town by definition.

You have to actually contribute.

In my view, I am contributing.

Now, what I am going to say is not that I assume you are scum, but I think you could imagine that it could be possible that someone started thinking you were scum, desperately trying to avoid getting into really big debates (such as ythill-me) but also trying not to lurk. Could you give us the town version of your behaviour (ie. clarify your behaviour while assuming that you are town)?

What?

This question is really, really muddled.

Why should I have gotten into a big debate?

Horrible. Absolutely horrible. Just answer the question please. Yes or no with an explanation.

No. It is your job to clarify your questions. I am not going to get pushed into responding to verbal traps.

And for god's sake stop being disingenuous. Your insistence on forcing "yes or no" answers on confusing questions is bizarre.

[Ythill]

Sure, my english is not so bad. The previous post was a quick one. Do you really think your wagon on sirdan can produce new interesting output?

I still don't quite understand. Are you asking whether it has information potential? Well, not as much as some others' would, but I'd still rather have dead scum than information. Besides, there would have to be a lot more votes to lynch him, which would most likley increase the information potential.

If that isn't what you're asking... then... um... try again?

So I tried to wonder who your top were, to analyze easily the votes and suspicions of everybody. And I got lost.

They weren't meant to be in any sort of order, except that sirdan-scum is my PE#1. If asked to order them, I'd have a hard time of it. Pacman would be at the bottom, vying with Jah for last place. Of the other three...

...I don't know. Like I said, I'd have to reread before I voted any of them. Off the cuff I'd probably put Karne as my PE#2, then Cass, then nhat but that's from my overall impressions, I haven't done much research on any of them.

[Simenon]

See, Sim? Now he's doing it to you.

yeah. This:

You are wrong. If that is your definition of scumhunting, then this debate is over. You didn't reply to the points I told you to reply to, and you blatantly continued what you were doing. You are not helpful to the town in doing so and I am now pretty damn sure that you are in fact scum.

is pretty silly.

[Ythill]

Yeah. I mean, for a guy that claims to not be slippery, that's a whole lot of

Argue like I tell you to or you are obv-scum and I'm not talking to you anymore.

Seriously guys, sirdan is the play. I don't see what's so obscure about that.

[Simenon]

Yeah. I mean, for a guy that claims to not be slippery, that's a whole lot of

Argue like I tell you to or you are obv-scum and I'm not talking to you anymore.

What was "Hahahaha. Whatever, scum."

[pacman281292]

I checked the VC, and I realized that I'm voting. And I don't know why

Unvote.

I will be LA during the whole weekend. Sorry

[sirdanilot]

So, the people that I'd lynch.

1. Ythill. I posted my reasoning above.

And as for two others, I'm not sure. Simenon comes to mind, but I'm not finished debating with him yet. He keeps avoiding questions, so that may take a while. I don't really think Goatrevolt is scum, even though I suspected him earlier. He's defended himself well.

I wouldn't mind a pacman or citizen karne lynch. I don't really think that either of them are scum though, but I may be wrong.

Jahudo somehow gives me a scum vibe, but I know that if I'd make a case against him it would turn out into nothing. He just gives me a vibe, that's all.

So Ythill-Simenon-Jahudo.

How

is it unfair. Back this up.

The burden of proof is

not

on me here.

You could've just answered the question.

Not bad =/= not anti town.

Yes, it necessarily means it's not anti-town by definition.

Then, what is actually bad for the town?

Wow, it took me a few minutes to realize how clever your argument was. You said something like 'I don't realize how not contributing is bad', and I followed along with something like 'even if it's not bad it doesn't mean that it's not anti-town' and you just said 'yes it does'. Obviously you successfully tricked me here, but in this case I'm to blame.

So, let's try again. I do think your play is bad for the town. Why? Because it doesn't contribute, and gives the town less information than when you would contribute more.

You have to actually contribute.

In my view, I am contributing.

You're contributing a bit, but not enough. You just comment on single one-liners that you picked up and you reply to them with a one-liner. Sure, this contributes a bit, but you could've done more.

Now, what I am going to say is not that I assume you are scum, but I think you could imagine that it could be possible that someone started thinking you were scum, desperately trying to avoid getting into really big debates (such as ythill-me) but also trying not to lurk. Could you give us the town version of your behaviour (ie. clarify your behaviour while assuming that you are town)?

What?

This question is really, really muddled.

You could've also answered it. Let me rephrase. I want you to clarify your play in your last few posts. I can't do this since I don't know if you're town or not, and you do know your own alignment.

Why should I have gotten into a big debate?

I didn't say that. If you had gotten into a big debate, it would've been helpful, but there are also other ways to be helpful. For example, I think that what Cass is doing is helpful. I am not going to tell you exactly how to be helpful, if you're town you should know what to do.

Horrible. Absolutely horrible. Just answer the question please. Yes or no with an explanation.

No. It is your job to clarify your questions. I am not going to get pushed into responding to verbal traps.

And for god's sake stop being disingenuous. Your insistence on forcing "yes or no" answers on confusing questions is bizarre.

I don't know what disingenuous means. My question was not confusing at all.

Let me rephrase: What do you think of Ythill's playstyle (which includes not answering a very large part of my defense)?

You are wrong. If that is your definition of scumhunting, then this debate is over. You didn't reply to the points I told you to reply to, and you blatantly continued what you were doing. You are not helpful to the town in doing so and I am now pretty damn sure that you are in fact scum.

is pretty silly.

Learn to back up your claims.

Why

is it silly?

[Ythill]

What was "Hahahaha. Whatever, scum."

That was simply

you are obv-scum

, with a little bit of

your last post confirms my view

.