Mini 666 - This Could Be Mafia - MOD ABANDONED

[Falcone]

Positive vote: Voodo

because TonyMontana said so.

I don't plan to use any negative votes, except for myself if necessary, or in extraordinary circumstances which I don't think will arise Day 1.

[Falcone]

Grimmy's vote for Timeater was actually the 6th, or L-1. His explanation was ridiculous ("Let's save the mod the trouble of finding a replacement). When called out for it, he first refuses to unvote (to be fair, it wasn't L-1 anymore at that point), but when pressured, unvotes and FoS'es two seemingly random people "for lurking".

Positive Vote: Grimmy

For good measure, TonyMontana deserves some suspicion for being the 5th vote for Timeater, with an equally crappy reason.

FoS: TonyMontana

[Falcone]

For good measure, TonyMontana deserves some suspicion for being the 5th vote for Timeater, with an equally crappy reason.

4th, thankyouverymuch

Negative unvote, vote: Timeater

This is incorrect.

The Vote Count in #61 has Timeater at five votes, including yours.

In #55 populartajo unvoted, so before that Timeater was at six.

In #54 Grimmy was the 6th vote.

Your #53 was therefore the 5th vote.

The fact that you're trying to downplay the importance of your vote is not making me feel any less suspicious about you.

Also, why are you unvoting and revoting Timeater in the same post?

[Falcone]

I think I'll place Grimmy at L-3, that's adequate pressure for right now. The reasons are basically the same as Shadow's and everyone else's (the vote on time).

Vote: Grimmy

For the love of God, please pay attention to the Vote Count.

Grimmy is now at L-2, not L-3.

FoS: Battousai

[Falcone]

Do you mean you intended to unvote your negative vote for yourself, and then negative vote Timeater, while also leaving your positive vote on Timeater? If so, why?

Grimmy needs to defend himself asap.

[Falcone]

Do you mean you intended to unvote your negative vote for yourself, and then negative vote Timeater, while also leaving your positive vote on Timeater? If so, why?

Grimmy needs to defend himself asap.

[Falcone]

So, Grimmy, let me get this straight. With regards to your vote for Timeater, you now claim you had two reasons for it, 1) lack of a better lynch candidate and 2) asking for a replacement.

The first is a fair enough I suppose, at least on page 2 of the game. What most certainly is not fair enough is putting someone at L-1 on page 2, especially not "for lack of another option".

The second is a stupid reason, since you admit that asking for a replacement is not scummy, but that you just don't like it when a replacement is needed.

What bothers me in this explanation is that you seem to think I and other players are voting you for your

reasons

for voting Timeater, while I (and I assume others too) are really voting you

for putting Timeater at L-1 for no good reasons

. You understand the difference right?

In my case, there was another reason for voting you, the misplaced and badly reasoned FoS'es in #65. You now claim you wanted to pressure some lurkers and made the mistake of thinking populartajo was a lurker. Again you misunderstand (or misrepresent?) the real reason why I took issue with the FoS'es.

I have no problem believing that you made a mistake in thinking populartajo was a lurker while he was clearly not, since I can't see any benefit for scum to accuse someone of lurking when they aren't. No one is going to be mislynched for lurking when they can point to several contributing posts.

I do have a problem with the timing of your FoS'es. They came right after VivianDarkblaam attacked you for your badly timed and badly reasoned vote for Timeater and asked you to scumhunt (#64). Your FoS'es "for lurking" were at that point the easiest way for you to appear to be scumhunting, without really doing it. At the same time, those FoS'es could be seen as a blatant attempt to shift away the attention you were starting to get.

So in summary, no, your explanation do not make me feel a whole lot better about you.

[Falcone]

Completely unrelated

note to self

: When you have more time, investigate why your gut is screaming that Battousai is scum .

[Falcone]

Populartajo, I mostly agree with your judgment of nhat's case, but you do need to explain one thing.

How did you go from this:

Errr. This is too fast guys. If he wants a replacement then we wait for the replacement. If he doesnt want a replacement then Id suggest waiting for 3-4 more pages to suspect at least another person.
Positive Unvote : Time.

To this:

We need to lynch Ergo. I find his wagon full of information.Positive Vote: Ergo

In the time between those two posts, you didn't really do anything to try and suspect any other players. What information did Timeater's (Ergo's) bandwagon contain at the time you made your second post that it didn't contain at the time of your first post?

[Falcone]

Populartajo, I mostly agree with your judgment of nhat's case, but you do need to explain one thing.

How did you go from this:

Errr. This is too fast guys. If he wants a replacement then we wait for the replacement. If he doesnt want a replacement then Id suggest waiting for 3-4 more pages to suspect at least another person.
Positive Unvote : Time.

To this:

We need to lynch Ergo. I find his wagon full of information.Positive Vote: Ergo

In the time between those two posts, you didn't really do anything to try and suspect any other players. What information did Timeater's (Ergo's) bandwagon contain at the time you made your second post that it didn't contain at the time of your first post?

I still think Ergo (Timeater) is a very decent lynch for this exact moment of D1. Pretty much everyone reacted to it and I still think his behavior is questionable. See previous posts for elaboration.
Now I did stop the wagon for going too fast. Either town or scum, speedwagons dont give enough information for posterior days.
You seriously cant blame me for that.

This is not an answer to my question. Let me be a little more specific. If Ergo is lynched and turns out to be protown, what would you learn from that? If Ergo isl ynched and turns out to be scum, what would you learn from that? Which of these (hypothetical) pieces of information would you have learned in the event of an Ergo-lynch at the time of your second post, but not at the time of your first post?

[Falcone]

1.

TonyMontana hasn't responded to my #104. For that matter, he hasn't posted in a week.

Mod, could you prod TonyMontana please?

2.

In reaction to Grimmy's #143, I can't help but note that Grimmy keeps missing (or evading?) the point. There is nothing wrong with pressuring lurkers

an sich

, but in the circumstances, i.e. at a moment you were suspected for your badly reasoned and badly timed vote for Timeater, and right after VivianDarkblaam asked you to scumhunt, it really seemed like a desperate attempt to deflect attention away from yourself.

3.

As a follow-up to my #142, part of the reason I have a gut feeling that Battousai is scum is his #105, where he brushes off my comment on his mistake in the Vote Count by saying it was a “typo”, suggesting that he did count right, but just wrote down the wrong number. Now, miscounts do happen and don’t have to mean someone is scum, but I don’t understand how you can count correctly (L-2) and then not notice you wrote L-3. It’s not unlikely Battousai, as scum, tried to misrepresent the Vote Count as being safer than it really was, and when he was called out for it, tried to cover up his mistake.

Another part of the reason is Battousai’s #139, where he FoS’es Voodo for his reason for voting Grimmy. Like I explained in the previous section of this post, I do think Grimmy was trying to deflect attention away from himself by FoS’ing two presumed lurkers, or “distract us”, as Voodo put it. Therefore, Battousai’s FoS for Voodo seems unwarranted to me.

[Falcone]

Theory: Common sense, nhat. We differentiate people supporting the wagon with dumb/good reasons. We differentiate people against the wagon with good/dumb reasons. Also we can gather a lot of information and check the reasons people did that or that will give when the results are shown.
Homework : analyse all the players in the interactions shown in class.
Class dismissed.

To me this seems to be an attempt to hide the fact that you don't have a good answer to my question by shifting the burden of answering a (slightly different) question to nhat.

FoS: populartajo

Battousai, I'll drop my point about your mistake in the Vote Count, since it's impossible to prove intent in this case. I still don't like the tone of your reactions to my pressuring about it, but that's a gut feeling.

You seem to have misunderstood my second point however, since it doesn't have anything to do with my opinion of Grimmy's behaviour. You FoS'ed Voodo for a weird reason, which I find suspicious. Could you explain again why Voodo was worthy of your Fos, please?

[Falcone]

The question is pretty simple.

You unvoted Timeater when he was at L-1, implying you didn't want to lynch him at that time. Later, you voted Ergo (Timeater's replacement) "because his wagon is full of information", implying that you did want to lynch him at that time. Fact is, there were no new (positive) votes for Timeater in between those two posts you made. Or in other words, all the information you could ever hope to get from Timeater's (Ergo's) lynch was already available at the time of your unvote. Therefore, I want to know what changed your mind from "I don't want to lynch Timeater" to "I do want to lynch Ergo", because I do not find your stated reason to be sufficient.

[Falcone]

@Vivian and all here: does my reasoning belong more to a town player or more to a scum player? Yes, no, why?

Your play with regards to Timeater is more likely to come from scum, in my opinion. You tried to resurrect a dead wagon for bad reasons (which you still haven’t fully explained, by the way, but I’ll come back to that) at a time where another player (Grimmy) was at L-2 for, again in my opinion, decent to good reasons.

You also made an interesting comment about Grimmy:

Whats the case on Grimmy, huh?

So in summary, I think there’s a fair chance you were (and maybe still are) deflecting attention from your scumbuddy Grimmy. That’s why I’m bitching so much about this whole thing, and why I haven’t unvoted Grimmy.

Now, could you please give the other part of the answer to my original question(s)? If we would lynch Ergo and he turns out to be town, which players would you suspect more? Which less? If we would lynch Ergo and he turns out to be scum, which players would you suspect more? Which less?

[Falcone]

Falcone: After reading Grimmy's post, I felt that he was on to something with vodoo, so I placed a fos to mark my agreement with him on that issue, which is:

Post 73, Voodo: Votes Grimmy. States im trying to “distract” everyone

Wifom on this one, as it appear that you are doing the same thing you are accusing me of doing.

Post 78: Voodo: says im trying to distract everyone from me by pointing FOS’s.

I pointed FOS’s to try to get other people to post more. I was mistaken in FOS’ing Tajo.

I'm starting to see tajo's point about the unvote/vote, BUT I think that the vote for information is leaning towards scummy than town.

Falcone: How is asking for the case ABOUT grimmy, deflecting attention away FROM grimmy. To me, it sounds counterproductive. Also, since when has grimmy become confirmed scum? While I do think that grimmy is scum, that is based on play and not any confirmations of guilt. Therefore, I think your adding in extra "scum points" to tajo when there is no need (like punishing a child for eating a cookie before dinner without checking to see if a cookie is missing).

What, are you Grimmy's and populartajo's third scum buddy? You manage to blow hot and cold about both Grimmy and populartajo in the same post.

That said, you do make a fair point, and a nice analogy. Should Grimmy turn out to be protown, that would take away the most obvious motive for populartajo, as scum, to advocate an information lynch for Ergo. But, as Vivian Darkblaam said, scum often make certain arguments and votes without a clear motive, just to appear to be contributing, and then break down when questioned about their reasoning.

[Falcone]

Your play with regards to Timeater is more likely to come from scum, in my opinion. You tried to resurrect a dead wagon for bad reasons (which you still haven’t fully explained, by the way, but I’ll come back to that) at a time where another player (Grimmy) was at L-2 for, again in my opinion, decent to good reasons.

Except it wasnt a dead wagon in my mind. Except it wasnt for bad reasons. Except Grimmy's case has nothing to see with this case.
The point is that if Grimmy is so scum in your mind and Im only scum if he is, then why are you pushing only mine's so hard?

You may note that I'm still voting Grimmy. I find his response to my attack severely lacking. At least you make an effort to respond to my accusations, you just refuse to answer the most important question I'm asking you.

I cant believe no one thinks here that we can gather valuable information of a lynch. IN D1!!

Who said no information could be gained from Ergo's lynch?

- Erg0 is an informative lynch: You've yet to actually say what we learn depending on his alignment.

Do I have to give you everything? Assuming, you are really scumhunting, what information could you gather of Ergo's and Tajo's possible lynch?

This is the second time you’ve tried to make someone else answer this question. I can only conclude you don’t have a good answer for it yourself.

What, are you Grimmy's and populartajo's third scum buddy? You manage to blow hot and cold about both Grimmy and populartajo in the same post.

Joke, right?

Partly, yes, but only because it would be slightly ridiculous for me to have caught three scum on Day 1.

Im really worried with Falcone's reasoning. Lately I was thinking he was one of those scumhunter magnifiques. But he's just pushin my case to unexpected levels. The idea of me being a townie hasnt crossed your mind, has it?

Of course it has. But I honestly think that you make life difficult for yourself by not answering a straightforward question. It would have been much better just to admit that you didn’t have a good reason, or at least not a fully thought through reasoning, when you called for Ergo’s lynch. Dodging questions is a scum tell, and the more you do it, the more you make me think you’re scum.

Falcone, what do you think of Ergo's case and lurking? Do you think is a bad case?

I wasn’t aware there was a case against Erg0. If you’re still talking about the fact that Timeater asked for a replacement when there were a couple of votes for him and then kept responding until he was replaced, then yes, I think it’s a bad case.

And why do you think is Erg0 lurking? He made 7 posts in 10 days, which isn’t a lot, but I don’t think you can argue he’s lurking. For what it’s worth, fuzzylightning and TonyMontana were in the game since the beginning and have less posts then Erg0.

[Falcone]

I really should go to bed instead of playing mafia, but responding to populartajo's posts is too much fun.

Who said no information could be gained from Ergo's lynch?

Why dont you ask all here?

You’re dodging a question again.

Partly, yes, but only because it would be slightly ridiculous for me to have caught three scum on Day 1.

WAIT. Where did you get that there were 3 scum?

Pay attention please. I never said there were three scum (although that's par for the course for a Mini Game). I'm just referring to the fact I have made cases against three people today (Grimmy, populartajo and Battousai) and that it would be hilarious if all three were scum.

Of course it has. But I honestly think that you make life difficult for yourself by not answering a straightforward question. It would have been much better just to admit that you didn’t have a good reason, or at least not a fully thought through reasoning, when you called for Ergo’s lynch. Dodging questions is a scum tell, and the more you do it, the more you make me think you’re scum.

Im not dodging any question. If my answer doesnt satisfy you for w/e reasons then its your problem, not mine.

If you're lynched for refusing to answer a legitimate question, then it will be your problem, not mine.

I wasn’t aware there was a case against Erg0. If you’re still talking about the fact that Timeater asked for a replacement when there were a couple of votes for him and then kept responding until he was replaced, then yes, I think it’s a bad case.

Oh yes there was a case against Timeater. Why havent you jumped against other players like Muerrto and Fuzzy Lightning that agreed with my case?

Please show me where fuzzylightning agreed with your case. Or rather, spare yourself the effort, fuzzylightning has few enough posts that anyone can see he never did agree with any case you have made against Timeater / Erg0. The point is not that a couple of people (including you) voted for Timeater right before and right after he asked to be replaced, the point is that you tried to revive the bandwagon several pages later and that you still haven’t answered my questions about your reasons for doing that.

Falcone, are you scum?

No, I’m not. What do you hope to achieve by asking me that?

Why did you ignore Muerrto's post?

Do you mean Muerrto’s #196? Is there anything especially noteworthy about that post? I certainly can’t blame Muerrto for voting you, if that’s what you mean.

If you think Timeater's was a bad case, why have you ignored others agreement to it?

See above. Please refer to one single post in which someone agrees with you wanting to lynch Erg0 because

“his wagon (is) full of information”

(#110).

You are misrepresenting my reasons for attacking you.

[Falcone]

Populartajo, you just don’t read my posts, do you? Since I’m a nice guy, I’m going to make it easy for you by quoting my own posts, so you can clearly see there is a question I have asked you at least two times which you have not answered yet:

If Ergo is lynched and turns out to be protown, what would you learn from that? If Ergo is lynched and turns out to be scum, what would you learn from that? Which of these (hypothetical) pieces of information would you have learned in the event of an Ergo-lynch at the time of your second post, but not at the time of your first post?

If we would lynch Ergo and he turns out to be town, which players would you suspect more? Which less? If we would lynch Ergo and he turns out to be scum, which players would you suspect more? Which less?

To make it absolutely clear, what I’m looking for is something like this:

If we lynch Erg0, and he turns out to be scum, I will suspect players A and B for such and such reasons, and I will think players C and D are probably protown for so and so reasons. If we lynch Erg0, and he turns out to be protown, I will suspect players C and E for such and such reasons, and I will think players B and F are probably protown for so and so reasons.

Now, here comes the hard part: you cannot use any reasons that weren’t there at the moment you made your #110 and #112, since that when you first called for Erg0’s lynch for information purposes.

This is your last chance by the way.


And for the second time, stop misrepresenting the case I have against you. I couldn’t care less that some players, including Muerrto, voted for Timeater on page 1-3. I don’t really agree with some of the reasons that they gave, but it was still early in the game.

I’m not attacking you for anything that happened on page 1-3, I’m attacking you for (in chronological order):

- trying to revive the Timeater / Erg0 bandwagon for information purposes
- not explaining which information we would gain from said lynch
- possibly defending and/or trying to deflect attention away from Grimmy
- misrepresenting the case against yourself
- being OMGUS’sy as hell

PS 1

: It's Monday, so I have to go to work again. Don't expect me to keep up the ridiculous level of posting of this past weekend.

PS 2

: Grimmy said he would be back on Monday. I expect a fuller defence against my attack on him, as well as his opinion about as many other players as possible, including populartajo.

[Falcone]

This doesnt make sense becuase a)if there's buddying then both have to be scum not just one and b)it was so fucking early to tell who is scum and who isnt with that degree of certainty.......

a) scum buddy up to townsfolk.

If we are lynching people primarily for information, I find your lynch very educational, Tajo.

unvote both
positive vote:populartajo

You don't post for more then a week, and this is what you have to offer? No comment on the question I asked of you several times. No real comment on the case against populartajo, but a vote for him for an extremely stupid reason. No comment on anything else that's been going on.

FoS: TonyMontana

This will become a vote in case Grimmy manages to convince me he's not scum.

I'm neutral on populartajo's claim for the moment. It came a touch soon, but it has a good chance to be provable during the following nights. Of course, the claim doesn't magically dispell the bad logic and the dodging of questions he's been guilty of.

[Falcone]

VivianDarkblaam posted while I was writing my post.

Populartajo is at four votes (L-3) by my count (fuzzylightning, nhat, Muerrto, TonyMontana).

[Falcone]

Do you mean you intended to unvote your negative vote for yourself, and then negative vote Timeater, while also leaving your positive vote on Timeater? If so, why?

Grimmy needs to defend himself asap.

Incidentally, both of my comments are still relevant and need to be responded to asap.

Populartajo, you're far to busy cursing at other players and asking yourself why the whole cruel world hates you to actually read my posts carefully, aren't you? See my #209.

[Falcone]

Meanwhile, TonyMontana is looking odd. Votes tajo for trying to buddy up with someone, then he abruptly unvotes. I think he's got some splainin to do.

The buddy comment was not related to the vote. And I unvoted because I believe Tajo's claim.

Why did you vote for populartajo then?

Why do you believe the claim?

[Falcone]

Who believes my claim and who doesnt?

People if you're town you got to stop acting scummy and pay attention to the game.

Populartajo, if you really are protown, you should stop trying to divide the town in those who are for you and those who are against you. If a lot of people vote for you or disagree with you, the problem always lies at least partly with yourself.

Mod, could you prod Grimmy please?

It has been five days since his last post.

[Falcone]

The votes did not add up on me until AFTER this point. The pressure began being placed on me BECAUSE of these posts. I was ni no danger or suspicion of anything other than lurking at this point, so your "desperation" call is invalid.

This is actually a pretty good point.

If you could also give an answer to the other part of my attack, that would be great.

So, Grimmy, let me get this straight. With regards to your vote for Timeater, you now claim you had two reasons for it, 1) lack of a better lynch candidate and 2) asking for a replacement.

The first is a fair enough I suppose, at least on page 2 of the game. What most certainly is not fair enough is putting someone at L-1 on page 2, especially not "for lack of another option".

The second is a stupid reason, since you admit that asking for a replacement is not scummy, but that you just don't like it when a replacement is needed.

What bothers me in this explanation is that you seem to think I and other players are voting you for your reasons for voting Timeater, while I (and I assume others too) are really voting you for putting Timeater at L-1 for no good reasons. You understand the difference right?

[Falcone]

I'm willing to test this.

Positive unvote: Grimmy
Positive vote: Muerrto

[Falcone]

I already said that I will answer everyhting in the weekend. Dont you read?

Pot. Kettle. Black.

And since when not voting for your top suspect is a scumtell?

It's a pretty good scumtell in my experience, except in special circumstances.


I'm actually at a loss for what to do now. Populartajo's claim does indeed contain a line that's also in my role pm (literally exactly the same). I didn't realize this until TonyMontana said that was the reason for his unvote. A sample townie role pm was not included in the Mod's opening posts. I think it's pretty cheesy to try to confirm someone's innocence or guilt based on something like that, so I PM'ed the Mod to ask for his opinion on the matter. He basically said that since populartajo didn't quote his full role PM, there was no problem. Then there came the little rider attached to the Vote Counts saying that all protown win conditions are not necessarily the same.

The question is therefore whether scum have access to the townie win condition (or rather, some of the townies' win condition). If they don't, populartajo cannot be scum, since it would be too big a coincidence for him to make up the exact same sentence as is in my PM. By the same logic, TonyMontana is almost certainly protown in that case (or he would have made a truly brilliant and extremely opportunistic scum play). If scum do have access to the townie win condition, all bets are off. I just feel that if the Mod would have intended to do that (which by itself is a good thing, just to prevent things like the current mess from happening), he would have put the townie PM in the rules, as a lot of Mods do. That way, any discussion such as this is made pointless, as the town knows it can never catch scum this way. By (hypothetically) privately giving the scum the townie win condition (or some of the townies' win condition), the Mod would actually encourage such discussion, since the town would think they could possibly catch scum this way, while the scum know they can't.

It all boils down to outguessing the Mod, I realize that. But for now, I'm going by the assumption that skitzer is a good Mod and that populartajo and TonyMontana are probably protown.


Also, why is Muerrto self-voting?

[Falcone]

I thought Timeater's soft claim was a joke at the time.

Erg0, can you confirm whether or not your role name or flavour alludes to a tennis ball runner?

In other news, I'm still in favour of lynching Muerrto.

[Falcone]

Falcone: What is your reason for voting Muerrto?

The win condition argument. See my #288 for details.

[Falcone]

In the meanwhile, can anyone tell me why this guy can't simply believe I am a watcher and that

I was extremely lucky to guess his win condition?

Posite Vote : Muerrto

We have a winner here.

Positive unvote: Muerrto
Positive vote: populartajo

[Falcone]

You admitted to having been extremely lucky to guess the protown win condition in your claim. If you really were protown, you wouldn't have had to guess. Therefore, you're scum.

[Falcone]

Yeah, we're gonna lynch a powerrole, on the case that he was reaaaaaaaally lucky. ¬¬

Positive vote: Muerrto

This is a ridiculous post. It's a blatant misrepresentation of Muerrto's case against populartajo (which is at least a lot better than populartajo's case against Muerrto).

ShadowGirl makes a good point too that TonyMontana has a bad habit of evading questions.

If populartajo turns out to be scum, and I expect he will, TonyMontana will be next in line.

In other news, Grimmy hasn't made a useful post in a week. We shouldn't give him a free pass just because populartajo, and to a lesser extent TonyMontana, are tying up our scumhunting efforts.

[Falcone]

This is a ridiculous post. It's a blatant misrepresentation of Muerrto's case against populartajo (which is at least a lot better than populartajo's case against Muerrto).

The comment was mostly directed at you. Which was before i realized you were making the

ridiculous

assumption that Tajo actually stated to have been guessing the win condition.

Justifying your vote for Muerrto by a comment that’s directed at me is scummy.

And ridiculous assumption you say? I was merely reading what populartajo wrote:

In the meanwhile, can anyone tell me why this guy can't simply believe I am a watcher and that I was extremely lucky to guess his win condition?

The only conclusion I can draw from this line is that populartajo admits to having guessed the protown win condition. That means he’s scum.

What other interpretation can you give to this comment?

Look, the only viable buddy scenario here is that I am scum (with uncharacteristically good skills).
That Tajo guessed the win condition is highly unlikely to start with, but that I made a play to point out the validity of the condition, without being able to know if it's right is downright preposterous.

Except that if populartajo guessed the protown win condition, which he himself has admitted to, he’s scum. If you were scum too, you wouldn’t need

“uncharacteristically good skills”

to fake-confirm his claim, because you would know it to be incorrect. So your argument proves nothing at all.

Wow, Falcone you just went to think Im scum, then Muerrto is scum, then Im scum again with such easiness.
Do you agree that much with Muerrto's case?

FOS: Falcone.

Explain.

I thought you were scum for your general behaviour up until your claim (for example, my question regarding Muerrto’s “information” lynch which you

still

haven’t answered, by the way, in spite of me repeating the question for what seems like a thousand times). After TonyMontana drew my attention to the line from your claim that’s also in my role pm, I thought it was very unlikely you were scum (see my #288 for reasons). From his reaction to your claim and the follow-up to your claim, I thought Muerrto probably didn’t have the line in his role pm, making him likely scum in my eyes. Now the Mod has confirmed different townies may have different win conditions, and you have admitted to having guessed the (or a) protown win condition. Therefore, you must be scum, which is indeed completely in line with your behaviour throughout the game.

[Falcone]

Falcone: Obviously scum would not have said that unless it was a slip. I'm guessing you are infering that it was a slip and not just written incorrectly, no? That's a big assumption if you are, with a mislynch of a powerrole if your assumption is incorrect. Are you that sure of your assumption?

Yes of course I'm assuming it was a slip. Please note however, that the slip is not the only reason I'm voting populartajo. He has behaved like scum throughout Day 1 and, (re)considering all things, I'm more then willing to lynch him for it.

As I see it, the facts are:

1. Populartajo has behaved very scummy
2. Populartajo has claimed to have the exact same win condition as I have
3. I'm protown, so one of the following things is true:

a) Populartajo is protown and has the same win condition as I have
b) Populartajo is scum and the Mod gave the scum the protown win condition
c) Populartajo is scum and correctly guessed the protown win condition.

Since I cannot know which it is (disregarding for the moment I still maintain that populartajo literally wrote that c) was true), I should judge populartajo on his behaviour rather than his claim (this is just good play in general).

Therefore, I'm willing to lynch populartajo.

Am I absolutely 100% sure about this? No I'm not. But the town can never be sure of a lynch (exceptions exist of course, but not on Day 1).

[Falcone]

I am not assuming he guessed it. People who doesn't believe him are assuming it.
My "preposterous" scenario was if both me and Tajo was scum.

Let's do a little thought experiment. Assume populartajo and TonyMontana are both scum (in the same group).

Populartajo claims a protown power role and mentions the exact protown win condition. Since populartajo is scum, his claim is false. Since TonyMontana is populartajo's scumbuddy, he knows that the claim is false.

In this scenario, it is not unreasonable at all to think that TonyMontana would try to give credence to his scumbuddy's claim by implying (not saying outright at first) that he has the exact same win condition. Note that in this scenario it doesn't make any difference if the win condition claimed by populartajo is accurate or not. Either populartajo correctly guessed the win condition and TonyMontana thought it was false, but decided that he'd support his scumbuddy anyway, or both populartajo and TonyMontana were given the correct protown win condition by the Mod. Therefore, TonyMontana's assertion that it is preposterous to think he and populartajo could be scumbuddies is false.

This is what I was trying to say in #356, but I admit that I wasn't as clear as I could have been in that post. The point is, the fact that TonyMontana is using this argument to demonstrate he cannot be scum with populartajo continues to rub me the wrong way.

Incidentally, as TonyMontana himself admits, if populartajo is protown, he himself isn't cleared by any means by claiming to have the same win condition.


I'll comment fully on populartajo's #361 and #366 later, but I do note that populartajo has

finally

answered the question I wanted him to answer since what seems like an eternity. I have to do a little bit of research before deciding what I think about his answer.

[Falcone]

If it helps, English is not my first language.

It’s not? May I ask which language is your first, and where you’re from?

It’s pretty obvious that I didn’t guess my win condition. What are the odds? I already proved it’s not a standard win condition. The argument that scum can have the win condition of town is a better one (since I don’t have a scum PM) but I consider it pretty impossible since we know that there may be more win conditions than we know and give scum all possible ones is ridiculous.

I see what you’re saying here of course, but I have a nagging feeling that the Mod didn’t exactly tell the truth when he said there were different protown win conditions. Would you agree if I asked every townie with a different win condition than the one you claimed to come forward?

To everyone else:

Please don’t say anything until populartajo has answered this.


I’m glad you finally answered my question. I think it’s clear for everyone to see that, contrary to what you’re saying, you didn’t do so until now. Your explanation makes some sense, and if you had given an answer like this immediately, I wouldn’t have suspected you for it, but I still think your unvote and revote are somewhat strange.


Your case against Muerrto doesn’t convince me at all, since you vastly overstate the degree to which Muerrto agreed with you before he voted you. Even then, it’s not because player A agrees with player B on something early in the game, that player A can’t think player B is scummy later in the game. Furthermore, Muerrto had already stated that he, unlikely you, didn’t think Erg0 (Timeater’s replacement) was scummy. The timing of Muerrto’s vote also isn’t as suspicious as you make it out to be. When Muerrto voted for you, there were only two votes for you (fuzzylightning and nhat) and a FoS from myself.

Can you explain how I’ve acted scummy?

For starters, see my #209.

You evaded my question(s) and others. This is an important scumtell in my opinion.

You did a lot less useful scumhunting than you seem to think. Suspecting people just for disagreeing with you, complaining about the general stupidity of the town, and calling people names is not useful scumhunting.

Your “cases” against Timeater/Erg0 and Muerrto were unconvincing to say the least.

Your defence to the accusations that were made against you was subpar.

Is that enough?

[Falcone]

Falcone, before I answer can you tell me what do you think of Muerrto?

That is one of the things I'm trying to figure out by asking protown players with a different win condition than the one you claimed to come forward.

[Falcone]

I don't expect a win condition claim to reveal any halfway competent scum; it is just to confirm or deny the idea that there are multiple town win conditions. Scum will lie if they have a different condition, but any townie with a differing condition is obligated by the weight of almost all Mafia theory on the subject to be truthful in their claim.

This is exactly what I have been trying to say for the last couple of pages. Thanks Vivian.

So, people who have claimed to have the same win condition as the one populartajo claimed: populartajo, TonyMontana, Falcone, VivianDarkblaam, Muerrto, shadowgirl (I think).

Can anyone who does not have that win condition please say so? Obviously you should not claim anything else about your role (except if you're scum).

[Falcone]

Your feeling is wrong.

[Falcone]

Negative vote: JimmyBot

I have to say I'm slowly losing intrest in this game. This day should end pretty soon.

Since no one has responded to my question about the win conditions, I'm going to assume that all protown players have the same win condition.

I'm fine with lynching any of the following players: populartajo, TonyMontana, Grimmy, Battousai, Muerrto.