Mini 666 - This Could Be Mafia - MOD ABANDONED

[ShadowGirl]

I didn't have any information in mind. It was just a counter-punch to Tajo saying he wanted info from an ergo lynch.

They why would you use that sentence?

If we are lynching people primarily for information, I find your lynch very educational, Tajo.

unvote both
positive vote:populartajo

You must have had something in mind. Especially because you

voted

him for said reason.

Mm, where is Grimmy?

So, for the moment:

postive vote: Tony

[TonyMontana]

This is a ridiculous post. It's a blatant misrepresentation of Muerrto's case against populartajo (which is at least a lot better than populartajo's case against Muerrto).

The comment was mostly directed at you. Which was before i realized you were making the

ridiculous

assumption that Tajo actually stated to have been guessing the win condition.

If populartajo turns out to be scum, and I expect he will, TonyMontana will be next in line.

If tajo doesn't, you will.

Look, the only viable buddy scenario here is that I am scum (with uncharacteristically good skills).
That Tajo guessed the win condition is highly unlikely to start with, but that I made a play to point out the validity of the condition, without being able to know if it's right is downright preposterous.

[populartajo]

Wow, Falcone you just went to think Im scum, then Muerrto is scum, then Im scum again with such easiness.
Do you agree that much with Muerrto's case?

FOS: Falcone.

Explain.

[populartajo]

EBWOP
Im 90% sure Tony and Shadowgirl are townies.

[TonyMontana]

Shadow, I have already admitted to have been bandwagoning Tajo. Try to keep up.

[TonyMontana]

I didn't have any information in mind. It was just a counter-punch to Tajo saying he wanted info from an ergo lynch.

They why would you use that sentence?

I didn't have any information in mind.

It was just a counter-punch to Tajo saying he wanted info from an ergo lynch.

[Falcone]

This is a ridiculous post. It's a blatant misrepresentation of Muerrto's case against populartajo (which is at least a lot better than populartajo's case against Muerrto).

The comment was mostly directed at you. Which was before i realized you were making the

ridiculous

assumption that Tajo actually stated to have been guessing the win condition.

Justifying your vote for Muerrto by a comment that’s directed at me is scummy.

And ridiculous assumption you say? I was merely reading what populartajo wrote:

In the meanwhile, can anyone tell me why this guy can't simply believe I am a watcher and that I was extremely lucky to guess his win condition?

The only conclusion I can draw from this line is that populartajo admits to having guessed the protown win condition. That means he’s scum.

What other interpretation can you give to this comment?

Look, the only viable buddy scenario here is that I am scum (with uncharacteristically good skills).
That Tajo guessed the win condition is highly unlikely to start with, but that I made a play to point out the validity of the condition, without being able to know if it's right is downright preposterous.

Except that if populartajo guessed the protown win condition, which he himself has admitted to, he’s scum. If you were scum too, you wouldn’t need

“uncharacteristically good skills”

to fake-confirm his claim, because you would know it to be incorrect. So your argument proves nothing at all.

Wow, Falcone you just went to think Im scum, then Muerrto is scum, then Im scum again with such easiness.
Do you agree that much with Muerrto's case?

FOS: Falcone.

Explain.

I thought you were scum for your general behaviour up until your claim (for example, my question regarding Muerrto’s “information” lynch which you

still

haven’t answered, by the way, in spite of me repeating the question for what seems like a thousand times). After TonyMontana drew my attention to the line from your claim that’s also in my role pm, I thought it was very unlikely you were scum (see my #288 for reasons). From his reaction to your claim and the follow-up to your claim, I thought Muerrto probably didn’t have the line in his role pm, making him likely scum in my eyes. Now the Mod has confirmed different townies may have different win conditions, and you have admitted to having guessed the (or a) protown win condition. Therefore, you must be scum, which is indeed completely in line with your behaviour throughout the game.

[TonyMontana]

In the meanwhile, can anyone tell me why this guy can't simply believe I am a watcher and that I was extremely lucky to guess his win condition?

The only conclusion I can draw from this line is that populartajo admits to having guessed the protown win condition. That means he’s scum.

What other interpretation can you give to this comment?

Uh, the obvious one. That he is dissing muerrto for assuming that Tajo was just lucky in guessing. I understand that grammatically he is saying what you say. But logically you have to be pretty daft to not understand what he was trying to say.

[populartajo]

When the fuck did I admit to have guessed my win condition?

[Battousai]

When the fuck did

I admit to have guessed my win condition

?

You did it again!

Falcone: Obviously scum would not have said that unless it was a slip. I'm guessing you are infering that it was a slip and not just written incorrectly, no? That's a big assumption if you are, with a mislynch of a powerrole if your assumption is incorrect. Are you that sure of your assumption?

[Falcone]

Falcone: Obviously scum would not have said that unless it was a slip. I'm guessing you are infering that it was a slip and not just written incorrectly, no? That's a big assumption if you are, with a mislynch of a powerrole if your assumption is incorrect. Are you that sure of your assumption?

Yes of course I'm assuming it was a slip. Please note however, that the slip is not the only reason I'm voting populartajo. He has behaved like scum throughout Day 1 and, (re)considering all things, I'm more then willing to lynch him for it.

As I see it, the facts are:

1. Populartajo has behaved very scummy
2. Populartajo has claimed to have the exact same win condition as I have
3. I'm protown, so one of the following things is true:

a) Populartajo is protown and has the same win condition as I have
b) Populartajo is scum and the Mod gave the scum the protown win condition
c) Populartajo is scum and correctly guessed the protown win condition.

Since I cannot know which it is (disregarding for the moment I still maintain that populartajo literally wrote that c) was true), I should judge populartajo on his behaviour rather than his claim (this is just good play in general).

Therefore, I'm willing to lynch populartajo.

Am I absolutely 100% sure about this? No I'm not. But the town can never be sure of a lynch (exceptions exist of course, but not on Day 1).

[populartajo]

Sigh.. that slip you're proposing is the same as "Yes, Im scum and I just gave away one of the opportunities to save my scummy ass?" * Do you really think that?
If it helps, English is not my first language.
Its pretty obvious that I didnt guess my win condition. What are the odds? I already proved its not a standard win condition.
The argument that scum can have the win condition of town is a better one (since I dont have a scum PM) but I consider it pretty impossible since we know that there may be more win conditions than we know and give scum all possible ones is ridiculous.
So, why cant you think that possibility a) is the real one? Can you explain how Ive acted scummy?

*Note for Falcone: this isnt a slip.

[skitzer]

Vote Count Equations At the Moment:

populartajo = +nhat+fuzzylightning+Muerrto+Falcone = 4
Muerrto = +populartajo+TonyMontana = 2
Grimmy = +Vivian Darkblaam+Voodo-Grimmy = 1
Falcone = +Erg0 = 1
Erg0 = = 0
Vivian Darkblaam = = 0
Voodo = = 0
Battousai = = 0
fuzzylightning = = 0
ShadowGirl = = 0
nhat = = 0
TonyMontana = -TonyMontana+Battousai = 0
Jimmybot = -Vivian Darkblaam-Erg0-ShadowGirl = -3

Not Voting = -Falcone+Grimmy-Muerrto-populartajo-Voodo-nhat+ShadowGirl-Erg0-Battousai-fuzzylightning = -5

FoS Count:

Falcone has pointed two fingers of suspicion at TonyMontana!
Battousai has pointed a finger of suspicion at Timeater!
Falcone has pointed a finger of suspicion at Battousai!
Battousai has pointed a finger of suspicion at TonyMontana!
Battousai has pointed a finger of suspicion at Voodo!
Falcone has pointed a finger of suspicion at populartajo!
Muerrto has pointed a finger of suspicion at TonyMontana!

Note: The win condition may not be the same for all players.

[ShadowGirl]

Look, the only viable buddy scenario here is that I am scum (with uncharacteristically good skills).
That Tajo guessed the win condition is highly unlikely to start with, but that I made a play to point out the validity of the condition, without being able to know if it's right is downright preposterous.

If you were scum and he were town, then he would have no reason to lie about it. And thus, I wouldn't say it's quite so preposterous to make a move that would make you look cleared.

I already proved its not a standard win condition.

It sort of is, but - really, Tony proved it was not a standard win condition, not you.

But if scum got the townie pm, then wouldn't townies get the scum pm? That seems more... normal. Then again, I guess this game isn't really normal. :/

[TonyMontana]

Look, the only viable buddy scenario here is that I am scum (with uncharacteristically good skills).
That Tajo guessed the win condition is highly unlikely to start with, but that I made a play to point out the validity of the condition, without being able to know if it's right is downright preposterous.

If you were scum and he were town, then he would have no reason to lie about it. And thus, I wouldn't say it's quite so preposterous to make a move that would make you look cleared.

Read again.

[ShadowGirl]

Look, the only viable buddy scenario here is that I am scum (with uncharacteristically good skills).
That Tajo guessed the win condition is highly unlikely to start with, but that I made a play to point out the validity of the condition, without being able to know if it's right is downright preposterous.

If you were scum and he were town, then he would have no reason to lie about it. And thus, I wouldn't say it's quite so preposterous to make a move that would make you look cleared.

Read again.

Why are we assuming he guessed it? If he's town he would know it.

[populartajo]

Kay. I left job early. So. Ill try to summarize. Here are my general thoughts so far.

FAMOUS QUESTIONS

Some people have accused me of dodging questions. I havent. I think all the information needed to explain why I acted like that or that is in this thread. Since Falcone still thinks that I havent answered his question Ill answer him.

Your problem Falcone, is that you think I didnt suspect Timeater at the moment I unvoted him. I did suspect him but I unvoted becuase I wanted to prevent a possible quicklynch. After my unvote, conversation settled down and I KEPT thinking Time/Ergo was possible scum for the reasons previously given. His wagon was full of information. Almost EVERYBODY reacted to it. At that PRECISE moment, If Ergo was lynched and he would have came up scum, then the people jumping in his wagon early (Muerrto, Voodoo) had less possibilities of being his scumpartners, and people defending him (Nhat, Batto, Vivian) should be moderately suspected. If Ergo would have came up town then the people jumping with me for weak reasons are more probable scums (Tony and Grimmy).

You're talking about information gained in a short period of time (between my unvote and my revote). Yes, there was information between these two events but the INFORMATION I was talking about was generated since the moment Muerrto placed his vote on him.

MY CLAIM AND MY WIN CONDITION

Here it is.

I could be your watcher, guys and I could win when all the threats to the town are eliminated.
Take that, scumbags and lambs.

As Falcone has pointed out there are three possibilities regarding my claim.
a)I could be the real watcher and I have a town win condition
b)I could be scum and I somehow have a town win condition in my PM.
c)I should stop playing mafia and spend all my money in lottery tickets becuase I am extremely lucky : I guessed town's win condition.

I already pointed out that reason "c" is going against common sense. Reason "b" feels a little better argumented but it is ridiculous for skitzer to add all possible win conditions in the scum PM. So, my friend Falcone, unless you come up with another possibility, choice "a" is the only one we should consider. IM YOUR FREAKING WATCHER!

MY SCUMHUNTING TECHNIQUES!!!111

To all the people that dont understand why I suspect Muerrto, look at this:

Falcone, what do you think of Ergo's case and lurking? Do you think is a bad case?
Wheres Muerrto and Ergo?
Mod: Prod them.

Muerrto's inmediate response was:

First off, just to let you know, I wasn't prodded. Second,
Unvote positive, poisitive vote : Popular
You called for my prod when I posted friday, then saturday, and I even cross posted with you? It had been less than 24 hours since my last post.
And attempting to link me with Ergo/Time? Nice. No wonder you had a problem with me agreeing with you about Ergo.

First of all, I must admit I made a mistake when rereading and didnt notice that Muerrto had posted recently so that he didnt need a prod. To be honest, I was expecting a little of decent support since I thought he had experience and could attack the weak reasonings against my case. This explain the "Muerrto, thoughts?" that I added at the end. However, the thing that worried me the most is that he was supporting my theory of Time's flaking until that post, therefore he found me townie. Then,how did I go to decent reasoner to obvious scum just becuase I made a mistake about his frecuency of posting in this game? Oh yes, was it because the majority of players were against me? THE REASONS WHY HE VOTED ME ARENT SCUMTELLS.
I will add more reasoning to my case when I answer his the weekend. I have to go. Thats all for now.
In the meanwhile, could you do me a favor and answer him who has scumhunted more?

Mod: Any news in the replacements?

Sadly, no. I'm having a hard time finding replacements in either of my games.

[TonyMontana]

Look, the only viable buddy scenario here is that I am scum (with uncharacteristically good skills).
That Tajo guessed the win condition is highly unlikely to start with, but that I made a play to point out the validity of the condition, without being able to know if it's right is downright preposterous.

If you were scum and he were town, then he would have no reason to lie about it. And thus, I wouldn't say it's quite so preposterous to make a move that would make you look cleared.

Read again.

Why are we assuming he guessed it? If he's town he would know it.

I am not assuming he guessed it. People who doesn't believe him are assuming it.
My "preposterous" scenario was if both me and Tajo was scum.

[Falcone]

I am not assuming he guessed it. People who doesn't believe him are assuming it.
My "preposterous" scenario was if both me and Tajo was scum.

Let's do a little thought experiment. Assume populartajo and TonyMontana are both scum (in the same group).

Populartajo claims a protown power role and mentions the exact protown win condition. Since populartajo is scum, his claim is false. Since TonyMontana is populartajo's scumbuddy, he knows that the claim is false.

In this scenario, it is not unreasonable at all to think that TonyMontana would try to give credence to his scumbuddy's claim by implying (not saying outright at first) that he has the exact same win condition. Note that in this scenario it doesn't make any difference if the win condition claimed by populartajo is accurate or not. Either populartajo correctly guessed the win condition and TonyMontana thought it was false, but decided that he'd support his scumbuddy anyway, or both populartajo and TonyMontana were given the correct protown win condition by the Mod. Therefore, TonyMontana's assertion that it is preposterous to think he and populartajo could be scumbuddies is false.

This is what I was trying to say in #356, but I admit that I wasn't as clear as I could have been in that post. The point is, the fact that TonyMontana is using this argument to demonstrate he cannot be scum with populartajo continues to rub me the wrong way.

Incidentally, as TonyMontana himself admits, if populartajo is protown, he himself isn't cleared by any means by claiming to have the same win condition.


I'll comment fully on populartajo's #361 and #366 later, but I do note that populartajo has

finally

answered the question I wanted him to answer since what seems like an eternity. I have to do a little bit of research before deciding what I think about his answer.

[TonyMontana]

Or.... this is just a big stretch.

[Falcone]

If it helps, English is not my first language.

It’s not? May I ask which language is your first, and where you’re from?

It’s pretty obvious that I didn’t guess my win condition. What are the odds? I already proved it’s not a standard win condition. The argument that scum can have the win condition of town is a better one (since I don’t have a scum PM) but I consider it pretty impossible since we know that there may be more win conditions than we know and give scum all possible ones is ridiculous.

I see what you’re saying here of course, but I have a nagging feeling that the Mod didn’t exactly tell the truth when he said there were different protown win conditions. Would you agree if I asked every townie with a different win condition than the one you claimed to come forward?

To everyone else:

Please don’t say anything until populartajo has answered this.


I’m glad you finally answered my question. I think it’s clear for everyone to see that, contrary to what you’re saying, you didn’t do so until now. Your explanation makes some sense, and if you had given an answer like this immediately, I wouldn’t have suspected you for it, but I still think your unvote and revote are somewhat strange.


Your case against Muerrto doesn’t convince me at all, since you vastly overstate the degree to which Muerrto agreed with you before he voted you. Even then, it’s not because player A agrees with player B on something early in the game, that player A can’t think player B is scummy later in the game. Furthermore, Muerrto had already stated that he, unlikely you, didn’t think Erg0 (Timeater’s replacement) was scummy. The timing of Muerrto’s vote also isn’t as suspicious as you make it out to be. When Muerrto voted for you, there were only two votes for you (fuzzylightning and nhat) and a FoS from myself.

Can you explain how I’ve acted scummy?

For starters, see my #209.

You evaded my question(s) and others. This is an important scumtell in my opinion.

You did a lot less useful scumhunting than you seem to think. Suspecting people just for disagreeing with you, complaining about the general stupidity of the town, and calling people names is not useful scumhunting.

Your “cases” against Timeater/Erg0 and Muerrto were unconvincing to say the least.

Your defence to the accusations that were made against you was subpar.

Is that enough?

[populartajo]

Falcone, before I answer can you tell me what do you think of Muerrto?

[Muerrto]

First of all, I must admit I made a mistake when rereading and didnt notice that Muerrto had posted recently so that he didnt need a prod.

Why did that take you 2 weeks and 10 pages to say?

[Falcone]

Falcone, before I answer can you tell me what do you think of Muerrto?

That is one of the things I'm trying to figure out by asking protown players with a different win condition than the one you claimed to come forward.

[TonyMontana]

I think we ought to leave the win conditions alone. I don't see anything good coming out of trying map out the differences in win conditions.