Sunny 2: Rules of Im-peachment - Over!

[Morning Tweet]

This is pretty much Noraa's scum meta from two games of reference now

So vote?

keep yur tiny pants on cat

VOTE: Jingle

Pretty obvious scum tbh. That vote on me is actually like absolute crap. I expect better from jingle.

Your strongest suspicion this game is on somebody who is wrongfully scumreading you and that's basically all ive seen from Jingle so far ?

It's working

Am I missing something? Because I'm not able to sort morning off of this????
Morning's read on me is horrible but I realize that there are a lot of players that I expect to read me well that just don't sometimes. Like they catch scum!me a couple times and I'm like "yeah they will be able to tell this is town!me!!!" but then they SR me and I'm like "well ok so they never caught me in my scum games to begin with. it was just playstyle clash. what a troll."

You didn't comment on anything i said other than call it horrible (ノ﹏ヽ)

What separates me from Jingle? i searched through your ISO but i just cannot find your reasoning there -- aside from here whre you say you expect better of him

Most your posts are shit so idk why ur complaining.

is there something causing you to be so abrasive this game? I don't think it's outright scummy because it can happen to me always, but i just find it fairly new for you

[staypositivefriend]

btw, i want to point out that i originally marked jake off as a townlean because i thought that the stances and angles he was pursuing were so bold and so aggressive that it would be unlikely for a scum under pressure to take them in the early game

but that read was predicated on the idea that jake was going somewhere with his scumhunting, and it really seems like he isn't. he's been lazily pushing on gamma for a while now with no real sense of conviction or internal motivation to actually solve gamma's slot, or to get people to vote with him.

i wouldn't mind if jake was lazy & detached from the game if his reads reflected that level of detachment - but i've been getting the impression that he is trying to give off the impression of scumhunting while not meaningfully reading or engaging with the game

[Pink Ball]

I agree with you; I thought that the early pushes on Jake where scum motivated trying to make him a liability, but he has done that to himself

[Untrod Tripod]

Votecount 1.7

Cheetory6
Gamma Emerald - 1 (Jake)
Gypyx - 3 (staypositivefriend, SirCakez, Zaiden)
Jake The Wolfie - 1 (midwaybear)
Jingle - 2 (noraa, MariaR)
MURDERSUNNY
MariaR
midwaybear
Morning Tweet
noraa - 3 (PrivateI, MURDERSUNNY, Pink Ball)
Pink Ball
PookyTheMagicalBear
PrivateI
SirCakez - 1 (Pooky)
Something_Smart
Spring Breeze
staypositivefriend
Zaiden - 5 (Cheetory6, Jingle, Spring Breeze, Gypyx, Gamma Emerald)

Not Voting - 2 (Morning Tweet, Something_Smart)

Day 1 ends on January 29th at 8PM EST. With 18 alive, it takes 10 to ask someone politely to leave.

If I make a mistake in the Votecount, please PM me or message me on Discord to let me know. Do not clutter the thread with posts about it.

[Pink Ball]

Very Cool

[Cheetory6]

Also with reference to Clidd both Hopkirk and Hectic told me that scum are more likely to sub out - which also makes wary of Morning Tweet. And given the game state it seemed convenient they would immediately attack on Nora seemed quite opportunistic to me. And also it adds to my scumlean on Cheetory who said they were considering subbing out. Although Hectic and Hopkirk are divided on Cheetory. Hectic thinks Cheetory's anger comes from a genuine place where it seems like he doesn't know my alignment hence I've been attacked over the possibility of 'theatreeing' as scum. Hopkirk thinks that Cheetory's early vote on Gamma doesn't strike him as genuine town trying to form a read + his subsequent progression in logic for reads and votes doesn't across as natural. I feel like taking Hopkirk's side on this one. Even if we set aside anything personal from yesterday I don't trust Cheetory or believe they are acting in good faith. If I didn't respond to their questions immediately to me it was one post among many and I was feeling very overwhelmed by dozens of posts at the time.

Would love for Hopkirk to unpack those thoughts of his in detail for you to deliver to me. Thanks.

[Cheetory6]

Also, can you just stop and engage me on the fact that this is now the third or fourth time that I've tried to explain to you that the quote that you're making such a huge deal out of, is not me saying that your playstyle is shit and that you're a shit player.
I literally prefaced the start of my question batch with an explanation of why that wasn't the case and you still haven't acknowledged that.
Do you think I'm just lying about that? Like I seriously just don't get it.
Read this:

So in my experience there's a spectrum of mafia playstyle between impulse and logic. Players who play off the cuff and use vibes to try to figure things out are generally easier to read off of their tone/activity.
To me you fall on the wayyy other end of the spectrum of calculated and logical, which is fine, if that was unclear. It's just harder for me to get a handle on someone whose content-posting is a lot more curated/prepared.
(especially when I just want to be lazy and respond to everything without having to read back )

and this:

I don't think you're bad at the game, if that was the implication you took from my posts. (though I think the worst thing I said was that your posting felt stilted so I'm not sure where this came from, maybe me being a dufus with the wendy's comment? q_q)

Also, can you drop some reads on other slots in the game/drop any other reads that your teammates have?

This reads to you like I'm bullying you? Seriously like if this is a misunderstanding just like stop and read the posts and acknowledge them and fucking level this tension because I really do not feel like I've been an asshole to you in any way shape or form and you continuing to dance around the big sections of my push post on you where I tried to address what you were saying is fucking bothering me a lot.

[Morning Tweet]

skimming after page 32

It looks like Zaiden got upset over a comment by Cheet essentially saying he wouldn't endgame and he thought that to be insulting him, then Cheet got upset by that. I have only seen someone get upset over something personal as scum once as opposed to many many times as town. Cakes mentions that Cheet would get upset either way, it makes sense as either alignment to be upset about being called an asshole, and that makes sense, but still

Particularly 813 by Chett doesn't seem like something you would make up to me. Zaiden feeling persecuted by Cheet feels like something that makes a lot less sense for a scum newbie to get upset over and quite frankly i guess i'd be surprised if scum!Zaiden intentionally uses that line to attack Cheet / defend himself. So yeah, I guess thats all ill say on that.

I can replace out if people think I'm actually being an asshole.

In all honesty, I'm glazing over your 1v1, but I don't think either of you are being particularly assholish by my standards. It just seems like a really boring fight that's not actually going to make either of you more solveable.

Might be worth it for both of you to disengage and look at other people. Maybe ignore each other until Wednesday?

I would agree with Jingle that i dont think either of them really overstepped but i do believe they believed that the other did and felt upset by that. i think it's less justifiable to fake getting upset there as scum as opposed to genuinely being upset about it. Of course, scum do get upset but i just dont see it happen as much and probably for both of them -- i dont think Zaiden gets upset there as a newbie!scum for the "not endgaming" comment -- and Cheet i dont think makes up 813.

Oh there's my greeting post! i glazed over most jake-gamma interactions and most Zaiden walls besides the one particular one, but ive got a few reads at least

[Cheetory6]

Also in terms of me being flaky, I am just generally an unstable and flaky player.
I genuinely hate playing mafia a lot of the time and would not be playing in team mafia if it weren't for having been asked to by people I like.

[staypositivefriend]

I personally feel like Zaiden will become a more obvious wolf as the game goes on as you can see where Jingle will be the other way around so I would personally take a shot at them. However, if people aren't overly keen I will take the easy one.

^^i like this thought from maria

if maria is playing from a scum mindset, then it means that she successfully created a significant amount of momentum against zaiden and ensured that he would become the focal point of discussion today, only to deliberately switch her push onto a much more intimidating player and risk drawing a lot of heat on herself.

maria was already a universal TR when she made this post, so it's difficult to see the scum intent behind deliberately switching off of the wagon and the momentum that she singlehandedly created. the most simple answer is that her progression is coming from a town mindset

[staypositivefriend]

also i've seen a lot of townleans on murdersunny but very little explanation for them. is it a meta thing? cause i'm going to need the word of people i trust right now for me to get to a murder!town world

[midwaybear]

I was already fine with the fact Dunn was TRing Maria

Why are you making things up?

Will catch up soon

[Morning Tweet]

I believe that Murderkitty may be seeing the correct things about Noraa's play that makes it scummy -- although he does leave open the possibility that the change of meta is detached from her alignment entirely (she could be trying to avoid a miselim as town since she gets eliminated a lot).

an issue i have with the latter explanation is that i dont feel the changes Noraa is making (the abrasive parts) really does anything to help with that other than make her seem different/odd. The other problem is she comes off doing exactly what she does as scum which is where she projects several *confident* scumreads but the reasoning boils down to "they suspect me and they should be better than this". she acts like she's taking hard stances but it doesnt seem like she had an ample thought process to get there. I was pinged by this while reading 651.

The original point i was going to make was that Murdercatto has been able to successfully call out Noraa as scum on D2 in the last game where they met so him picking up on that is a good look if true. otherwise i dont have as much. I do want to note that piling on pressure on Noraa tends to make her harder to read for me, not less so, but enh i dont take issue with that strategy

pedit: @ SPF, although that ended up more talking about Noraa than Murder

[staypositivefriend]

I believe that Murderkitty may be seeing the correct things about Noraa's play that makes it scummy -- although he does leave open the possibility that the change of meta is detached from her alignment entirely (she could be trying to avoid a miselim as town since she gets eliminated a lot).

an issue i have with the latter explanation is that i dont feel the changes Noraa is making (the abrasive parts) really does anything to help with that other than make her seem different/odd. The other problem is she comes off doing exactly what she does as scum which is where she projects several *confident* scumreads but the reasoning boils down to "they suspect me and they should be better than this". she acts like she's taking hard stances but it doesnt seem like she had an ample thought process to get there. I was pinged by this while reading 651.

The original point i was going to make was that Murdercatto has been able to successfully call out Noraa as scum on D2 in the last game where they met so him picking up on that is a good look if true. otherwise i dont have as much. I do want to note that piling on pressure on Noraa tends to make her harder to read for me, not less so, but enh i dont take issue with that strategy

pedit: @ SPF, although that ended up more talking about Noraa than Murder

cool, thanks for sharing your perspective. i agree that murder's towny equity would increase significantly if we do live in a noraa!scum world - i think the fact that i've been townleaning noraa for a good portion of this game has made me more skeptical about the intentions behind his push on her

[Spring Breeze]

Kanna just sucks at reading me generally so I'm weirded out that she's right but I'm waiting on her reply to that atm.

not sure what you want me to reply to? my teammates think you're town and after discussing with them, i agreed. i just read your catch up though and i had an epiphany that you're town by myself. i really see what infinity means by the spew whatever even if it looks bad = town!noraa now

i wouldn't say the "kanna can't read me" thing is accurate as well, i can point out to why i ended up reading you wrong in every one of those games and i think they were just unfortunate

[Jake The Wolfie]

*yawn*

What's kraken y'all?

[Pink Ball]

Kanna just sucks at reading me generally so I'm weirded out that she's right but I'm waiting on her reply to that atm.

not sure what you want me to reply to? my teammates think you're town and after discussing with them, i agreed. i just read your catch up though and i had an epiphany that you're town by myself. i really see what infinity means by the spew whatever even if it looks bad = town!noraa now

i wouldn't say the "kanna can't read me" thing is accurate as well, i can point out to why i ended up reading you wrong in every one of those games and i think they were just unfortunate

Could you show us how exactly the conversation with your team wrt to Noraa was?

[midwaybear]

I was coming around to a Noraa townlean, but I didn't need the self meta sob story so back to null.

@mwb - why is murder town?

Mostly for the same reasons I was townreading Gamma. He doesn't really seem to be setting himself up yet, but it also does seem like he is solving. I think Murder described himself as someone who takes time to really hit his groove, and this basically looks like it. I was also townreading him really early for some meme reasons, and I think I have mostly dropped that.
@Murder My instinct may have been right there, but I don't think it was AI.
Also, you can probably BoP Murder this game. If he doesn't start driving scum hangs or at least change his current style, then he is probably scum.

I think Noraa is more cohesive than this as town

Eh. I would hope so, but I don't really think so.

but this is enough for me to TR her as well

How is what Maria said there enough to give you a TR there?

I feel like after he literally hydra'ed with me in one of my flawless scum wins, he shouldn't be this bad at sorting me.

Why is this the only reason you have for scumreading people? First Jingle now Cakez lol.

I'm actually gonna try to read through Zaiden's megapost instead of reflexively sticking the 'town' label to it.

However Morning Tweet lays out and explain the meta reason (please do this if you're using meta because if you don't say it I can't know) that apparently Nora is sitting back and spectating which is atypical for them? And then Nora kind of reacted by getting engaged into the game, which tells me this meta read must be true

If you are talking about Morning's 891 where she talks about Noraa not being fun and happy, I don't think Noraa actually reacted to that because Morning was commenting on stuff that happened a long time ago.

I thought the Pooky/SPF interaction segment was a genuine conversation where they got to a mutual understanding and agreed to hunt scum together.

I like this take. But I would also like Pooky to do things!!

So I won't townlock SpringBreeze like they recommended because what my team told me here about 'soul masons' was a load of gibberish that made no fucking sense to me.

This seems like a genuine thought. I would definitely not townlock Kanna from Pooky's read.

Even if we set aside anything personal from yesterday I don't trust Cheetory or believe they are acting in good faith.

I feel like scum Zaiden wouldn't continue to press on Cheetory. I don't really know why, but it seems like a town tunnel.

I've read enough. Might go back to review the takes, but it seems decently good to me. Maria, why are you still scumreading this slot?
I still like my vote.

[SirCakez]

For the Cakez discussion, I felt it was odd that Cakes held onto this stance they supposedly always had in 848 and only came out with it when it was convenient. So I want to ask Cakez, why did you decide to sit on those thoughts?

What thoughts?

[Something_Smart]

Zaiden, a word of advice: break your posts up into shorter paragraphs. They will be easier to read, and probably better organized as well.

[SirCakez]

I think I want to stick to the gyp wagon despite my suspicions of jingle and noraa
I have a good feeeling about it

[SirCakez]

Creature thinks Gamma, Gyp and Maria are suspiciously

[staypositivefriend]

it's interesting to me that gyp is essentially LHF, but that there has been a fairly significant absence of pressure on him. i would almost expect a player like gypx to face a lot more pressure & opportunism from the scum team if he was town

unless there's some kind of meta reason why scum might be reluctant to go after him

[Noraa]

Hopkirk told me he's less confident about his reads on Morning Tweet and Jake and to defer to Hectic. Hectic liked what Morning's doing in 873 and 904. She knows Murder is good at reading Noraa, and knows Pooky is good at reading Kanna, so the questions are meaningful to him. Hectic reckons based on 656 if Nora is scum, one of the scum would be one of Jake or Jingle because scum tend to be hyper aware of their partner, so she could mistake people commenting on Jake as commenting on Jingle, but it's unlikely she would make the same mistake if Jake is scum and Jingle is town. I understood what he meant about being hyper aware but I didn't get how that affects the likelihood of making mistakes. In this scenario Hectic showed a preference to Jingle being town because 865 and 877 showed he didn't care about rubbing people the wrong way and openly admitted to that, which scum would be more interested in avoiding. I didn't like Jingle's interaction with MWB comparing my wagon with Nora's in 883 and whether that was framed a dichotomy of two choices when I think there should be more options for wagons on the table. Also I'm confused how Jingle came around to a PB townread. They don't explain much here but I assume it's because of PB's support on Nora's wagon? I don't follow the logic of how that led to that particular townread. For Nora's vote on Jingle, I have no idea whether Jingle is a good player and whether they are playing below their standards? Didn't see this was an OMGUS until Cakez pointed that out - but is the OMGUS here alignment indicative for Nora? I wouldn't know but don't get the impression OMGUS would be AI is based on how hard Nora flip flop between their town/scum reads?

OH god wtf is this. Hectic please send help asap if ur buddy Zaidan here is actually town. this paragraph be dumpster fire :/

[Something_Smart]

Why?