Micro 1013: IMoA [game over!]

[northsidegal]

{moon, sang, vfp} is i think my primary lynchpool, final answer for today

[Andresvmb]

Still plausible scum.
Outting NSG as a neibour too is pretty scummy.

Andre can't claim anything else as scum here though so I don't doubt the Neibour part of the claim.

You wanted a Claim, and when I give you a claim, you think it’s Scummy?

Part claiming is dumb. Then what you would do is assume that I’m hiding my neighbor because they’re my Scum buddy or some other nonsense. Either ask for a Claim and live with the consequences when you get it, or kindly fuck off.

[northsidegal]

@moon, you never answered this:

Updated:

Uneven
Ta vera
Nsg
SS
Sigmund
Ico
Andre's
VFP.

it's unlikely Sigmund is partnered with Ico.
Andres/Ico could be interesting but I'm not sure Ico unvotes me as scum.

that was quick! why doesn't what you were just scum reading me apply anymore?

[Andresvmb]

I know you don't care much about this game Andre, but out of the votes that came onto you today which ones would be the most suspicious to you?

It’s not that I don’t care - I haven’t had time. Honestly I usually pour a lot of effort into every game I play. It’s just been a really busy few weeks for me IRL. It’s across the board not just here that I’ve been unfocused. It happens real life interferes.

[northsidegal]

next time literally anyone is online and sees this let me know, i think there's a lot to discuss

[Moongrass]

the strength in a masonry is mostly the confirmed aspect, not the communication aspect

I didn't say it was the same I just don't think it's balanced if there are two town neighbors when there is also a masonry.

Direct quote from wiki:
"in the hands of skilled players a Neighborhood can function either as a Masonry (if both players are town) or a directed Cop investigation (if one is not town). In the hands of unskilled players, Neighbors are virtually useless."

You obviously have superior experience when it comes to game balancing, but from my personal PoV if I were scum in a game that had Mason's and two town neighbors in a PT that would seem really unfair and town sided unless there were some kind of scum scum skill to kill a whole pt or something.

Speaking of scum being more likely to have knowledge of town roles, this is why I found Ico suspicious, due to his suspicious mentions of masons twice in his early ISO. It looked like fishing to me.

[Something_Smart]

next time literally anyone is online and sees this let me know, i think there's a lot to discuss

what's up?

[Moongrass]

{moon, sang, vfp} is i think my primary lynchpool, final answer for today

Thank you for claiming scum.

[northsidegal]

next time literally anyone is online and sees this let me know, i think there's a lot to discuss

what's up?

i think that moon basically claimed scum last page, but i don't want to harp too much on that to the detriment of other topics.

what does your lynchpool look like right now, and how much does it intersect with {moon, sang, VFP}?

{moon, sang, vfp} is i think my primary lynchpool, final answer for today

Thank you for claiming scum.

i might not win this fight and get you lynched today, but you

certainly

will not win it.

[Moongrass]

Challenge accepted.

VOTE: nsg

[northsidegal]

please answer 952.

[Moongrass]

Sang sorry to break your dreams of winning alongside nsg today but you need to kill it with fire.

[Moongrass]

Sigmund, Uneven, Ico, VFP, andre I summon thee in the name of justice!

[Something_Smart]

i think that moon basically claimed scum last page, but i don't want to harp too much on that to the detriment of other topics.

what does your lynchpool look like right now, and how much does it intersect with {moon, sang, VFP}?

The intersection there would be just VFP, but I'm not set in stone on the other two, and if you want to 1v1 Moongrass I will respect that because I know you're not one to do that lightly.

[Something_Smart]

i think that moon basically claimed scum last page, but i don't want to harp too much on that to the detriment of other topics.

I would like to hear at least a little bit about this because I do not see it at all.

[Sigmund]

Ngl the first thing that went through my head was that this setup was rejected from normal review because it had a scum-scum neighborhood. That doesn't match my reads, but it isn't impossible.

I don't necessarily think that's likely, though.

pretty sure scum-scum neighborhoods are fine for normals

[Sigmund]

I have knowledge of a masonry existing in this game, now it would be hugely unbalanced if there were also a neighbor PT with two town players in it because once the neighbors townread each other it's effectively a double masonry in the game with 4 pseudo confirmed town. Therefore, in the name of balance it's likely that one of the two neighbors is scum and if it were Andre they would not have claimed their neighbor because if we did elim nsg at some point down the track it would mean Andre's head when the masonry is discovered.

what

[northsidegal]

Something that I've noticed relatively frequently when looking back on a lot of my completed games is that, very early on in the game, a lot of the questions that I ask tend to be towards scum members. That isn't some brag—I'm not talking about my reads or my suspicions, just my outright questions about stuff that I don't understand. More often than not, when people say things which seem really odd to me, I tend to just write it off as different thought processes. To be clear, I think this is a good habit! It probably is more likely that someone just thinks differently than you than that person being scum. That being said, I think that sometimes I might go too far, or be too lenient—looking back on those games, if I were to give myself some threshold for stuff like that, I would've caught a lot of scum.

Moon, I know that as a player you have a tendency to kind of be all over the place, but I think that you have more than passed that threshold this game, and I think that it would be a disservice to the time I've spent reviewing and the things I've noticed if I didn't act on that.

Your progression on ta vera is nonsensical. You didn't answer 545 then and you can't answer 952 now because you have no answer. This progression

very closely resembles

one which is completely fabricated:

Spoiler:

VOTE: ta vera

Waiting on your response. You seem more interested in people's reads on you than your reads on them which seems like you're not interested in solving. I thought your push onto me was town indicative however you have just sat there happily in my blind spot shading me at each opportunity rather than trying to figure out my alignment. I found it annoying, now I find it scummy.

if everyone votes norwegianboy i can figure out who his partner is by what sound he makes when he breaks

could you say something about me please?

Yeah I was just skimming her ISO. It seems fine, I'm literally stumped with the lack of content to narrow down teams.

VOTE: VFP

Didn't mean to quote there.

Updated:

Uneven
Ta vera
Nsg
SS
Sigmund
Ico
Andre's
VFP.

it's unlikely Sigmund is partnered with Ico.
Andres/Ico could be interesting but I'm not sure Ico unvotes me as scum.

Your progression on VFP was similar. I'm just going to quote myself here because I don't think that I could say it better than I did then, and I don't think that you actually really answered anything that I said:

Spoiler:

You have this image that I'm going to vote where's safe or care about a retaliation vote on me.

I care about a retaliation vote on you in coming days. You misunderstand my perspective. I don't care if I go down I care if I take town with me because they couldn't give good reasons for their vote and will be easy targets.

when did you go from VFP at the bottom of your readslist to "i care if i take town with me"? this is a strange thing to say, even in the hypothetical where you're just talking to people as if they're town (as a lot of people do). after all, if i thought someone were just voting me with literally no justification and they outright said they weren't going to give me one, i think that one of my first responses (and most people's first response) would be to make some sort of ruckus about how this is an obvious scum push.

even if

i were then to go on to try to appeal to the person and say "this will look bad for you if you do this with no reasons, even if you're scum you should give me a reason here", i wouldn't frame it as being worried about the person potentially being town and me maybe taking them down with me, i would frame it exactly like how i just did, because i would genuinely believe i were talking to scum and would thus want to engage on that level.

am i missing something here?

(also, i realize i've been responding mostly to you here for the past few posts as well as calling your posting "strange" pretty often – nothing specific meant by it, just so happened to turn out this way)

if i thought someone were just voting me with literally no justification and they outright said they weren't going to give me one, i think that one of my first responses (and most people's first response) would be to make some sort of ruckus about how this is an obvious scum push.

That was in my first retaliation to his push on me, I told him that based on his reasoning he has no good reason to vote me. My later responses were addressing his argument that he doesn't need a reason to vote someone.

sorry, i don't really believe you and "i care about misreading people" doesn't really do it for me as a justification.

i find it difficult to look at the progression of someone being at the bottom of your readslist and you voting that person, to that person saying that they're going to vote you with no reason, to you voting someone else entirely, saying that you don't want to mislynch town so you'd really like reasons, and basically walking away from the conversation. i think that even the absolute most charitable players don't really tend to have progressions like that as town.

now, i could be wrong, but again i have to say it just makes it difficult for me to believe that you actually scumread VFP. instead, it seems more likely that you just wanted to disengage and vote for the easier ico wagon, for which support was building.

VFP was at the bottom of your readslist, you were voting him, he voted you back and said that he didn't need to give you any reason for it, and then you proceeded to vote someone else, and when responding to him said that you only wanted reasons so that you didn't take town down with you.

Even for a very spontaneous player

, that's a difficult progression to believe, especially for someone who displays the behavior that you're displaying here when you seem to have a scumread.

[Something_Smart]

pretty sure scum-scum neighborhoods are fine for normals

Imo they violate expectations. I think at least a reasonable chunk of reviewers agree with this.

[Sigmund]

ngl but wouldnt it make more sense for scum to be informed of the existence of a masonry than town to be informed of the existence of a masonry

[northsidegal]

ngl but wouldnt it make more sense for scum to be informed of the existence of a masonry than town to be informed of the existence of a masonry

this is exactly what i'm saying.

[Sigmund]

pretty sure scum-scum neighborhoods are fine for normals

Imo they violate expectations. I think at least a reasonable chunk of reviewers agree with this.

I have literally seen scum-scum neighborhoods pass normal review and I will link the games for you

[northsidegal]

They're normal, but frowned upon. They've happened in the past, though. It's not what's happening this game, at least with my neighborhood.

[Something_Smart]

I have literally seen scum-scum neighborhoods pass normal review and I will link the games for you

And iirc the response to them was largely negative. The normal review group does not exist in a vacuum.

Also, I'm sure there are reviewers who would pass them, but it's still possible that a reviewer for this setup rejected them.

[Moongrass]

Fine I'll directly claim I am a Mason because you people don't know how to add 1 + 1. Can we focus on killing nsg or Andre now?