Open 815: Forest Fire Redux [Endgame]

[Prism]

Policy vote the biggest noob

VOTE: Hectic

I am proud to take on the mantle of Tree once more, though the leafy crown weighs heavy

[Prism]

The correct term is "Yeetdrasse"

[Prism]

axe me. do it. then what're you gonna do, vote me again? im gonna haunt you forever

Are you that eager to be disenfranchised?

[Prism]

cant fuck up if you’re just a husk of a tree

You will never know how deeply, and personally painfully, wrong you are.

[Prism]

VOTE: Prism

Prisms are lame, Pyramids are cooler.

Triangular pyramids are best.

[Prism]

prism what happened to you ....

It's a long story and jokes no one but me will get will be a constant theme this game

[Prism]

Ydrasse, pick a vote and I'll follow.

[Prism]

Please note that as I painted my nails to match my avatar it will not being going anywhere anytime soon. Thanks.

[Prism]

Oh, I absolutely get it.

VOTE: Infinity

Caring, however, is another matter...

[Prism]

That's E-2, by the way. Interesting choice.

[Prism]

You're already voting there. Do you think selecting you was scummy?

[Prism]

I'm not really thrilled with Ydrasse's selection. It was made to pressure her to vote somewhere, I had to prod her further by making the comment about my nails, and the vote wound up on someone she just watched get in her own head/buckle to pressure in another game

as town

. The stakes aren't really comparable yet but I found it a lackluster choice.

[Prism]

My post about following her was made to pressure her [Ydrasse] to vote somewhere*

[Prism]

why pressure me to vote this early?

To see what would happen and how married to holding off you were

[Prism]

It was Perpetual Melo, where I played under the name Iverson.

[Prism]

Unvoting me, and not voting elsewhere, was a lot more interesting choice than either of the jokes you made.

Did something about my posting spur this?

[Prism]

So far I would lean against voting any of Ydrasse, Lukewarm, Child

I am happy voting Infinity at the moment. Applying the "towny" label to what I did with Ydrasse is not wrong but is very presumptive. I would consider Johnny or T3, too.

T3's start with Lukewarm was bizarre as T3 hadn't posted and Luke hadn't said anything about T3. Not sure if that was a joke or what.

[Prism]

Why is that more of an issue now and not when you knew I had my vote following yours?

Johnny is a random dart gutthrow for the stuff about Hectic

[Prism]

Ydrasse might actually be scum

Can you talk more about this?

[Prism]

As a personal meta comment, my goal for this game is to be a lot more intentional around my writing. You should expect tighter language across the board rather than the improvisational prose more natural to me.

[Prism]

When in doubt, Hectic is always worth your attention.

VOTE: Hectic

Reviewing his start, it feels to me as though the start was dealing with the basic rote interactions with Ydrasse and I before trying to find footing elsewhere by engaging with Fidget.

[Prism]

hectic will kill me so i can’t vote him out of principle

I know you've said you're at work and a bit irritated, but that isn't really commenting on my point, and this was something I was genuinely interested in your thoughts on.

[Prism]

My first question about the vote would have come regardless of what account you were under. The question about Hectic would not have.

I don't know the degree to which Infinity, Hectic, myself, your current annoyance, or simply wanting a different playstyle are factoring into that alt sentiment, but I'm not a particularly social player and the name attached means very, very little to me if that is any consolation.

That said, I hope you feel better, both in general and about playing, later on.

[Prism]

I feel pretty good about Lukewarm being town after 139. I skimmed the marathon run of Guardians and they feel more comfortable here. In Guardians they stuck strictly to mechanics for the first half of the game and only gradually dipped into giving reads or meaningful feedback.

[Prism]

We are talking about two different games. Lukewarm was scum in the recent Marathon run of Guardians.

[Prism]

I think it's very comparable given the realtime nature of the interaction, but we agree anyway so I won't labor it further.

[Prism]

Prism - Lot of analysis and some meta. Good content but nothing I explicitly townrwad and that isn't fakeable for her. Tone is notably different but she says she's trying a different approach. Probably weakest townread on here

I don't buy this.

You have clearly seen me fake the freewheeling, joking tone (in the vein of non-tilted Costello or me at my most lighthearted in Chara's Folly) in Flying Scumsman. You have seen this sort of intentionality and sharper focus repeatedly, dating back to your first experience with me on Replica, continuing through Folly, with flashes of it in Binding of Isaac.

I have repeatedly done things to sort players both actively and preemptively. I find it unlikely that these take a backseat in your mind in favor of tone.

[Prism]

Can you elaborate why Fidget is low and Infinity is high?

For Infinity, I was not impressed by "Ydrasse might be scum". I saw similar reads in Perpetual Melo, where Infinity sort of went on autopilot without explanation, but reads with explanation were always right around the corner. 125 was a satisfactory response for me but not decisively town.

[Prism]

I townlean you for the sorting, but

I know you have a wide scumrange

Given that Scumsman-the only game you have played with scum Prism-doesn't appear on your mind, what are you thinking of here?

[Prism]

Between you right now, and Bell cowering in fear most of WH-13 and illicit substances, I have no clue what made my single post as Ruler such an apparently powerful presence, but I'll take it.

[Prism]

Selective thinking is striking again, as I am 2 for 3 in correctly reading you as town, and quite early at that. You unconsciously count Scumsman.

My final question before I let others have their turn with you would be why Child is a townlean for you. Thanks for answering so much from me to begin with; I know I can be quite demanding.

[Prism]

I'm still satisfied with my vote for now, but don't have any other questions on my end.

[Prism]

Tone was presented as an almost counterbalancing factor or consideration to pull the townlean down. Calling the content good without diving into what made it so or why, and then presenting it as the weakest townlean, makes me extremely skeptical.

The vote is based off of your start, that read, and our followup conversation. Unlike Infinity I found 167 very scummy; though I am not exactly sure when, this topic of always scumreading you has come up previously and I don't like the more nervous framing of it this time around.

[Prism]

Found where it came up previously

[Prism]

Do you think I'm a more nervous player as scum, Prism?

As much as I hate to say "Around me? Probably", that is exactly what I am saying.

[Prism]

Found where it came up previously

You were townreading me there, here you scumread me

You don't think there'd be a difference in my reaction?

I don't really think this is a very productive line; there is going to be a difference regardless and it is up to me to guess which bucket it falls into.

Finding this where you seem to think it is a 50/50 which happens, later broken in favor of townreading you that game, does not inspire confidence that this isn't a flop.

[Prism]

Okay yeah w/ 190 this vote stays unless I have to compromise elsewhere

[Prism]

It's not disregarding a contextual difference, it's saying I don't think it fully explains the difference.

Contextually it is worse given that you recognized that game the ability to hardtownread you and viewed it as a tossup. This game you immediately retreated towards it as a shield, and it is not the only reason I scumread you. I did not buy your approach towards me from the get-go.

Binding of Isaac was focused around your progressions around other players, of which you've had zero this game.

[Prism]

Okay yeah w/ 190 this vote stays unless I have to compromise elsewhere

Like seriously, you're this confident despite knowing you've been horribly wrong on me for an extended period of time before?

Hmhmhm

You have absolutely seen similar displays of confidence, and know very well that I do not mind being wrong.

[Prism]

I see the scenario where scum!Prism recognises town!Hectic always hard townreads her when she pushes him and wants to replicate that

This is an extreme stretch given that what you're describing is exactly the tactic I used on you in Scumsman, which I have had to go out of my way to draw your attention that I was scum in.

[Prism]

While we could continue to go back and forth discussing how hypothetically this isn't the exact same context and how much we should weigh that, I will take a moment and let others process what is happening.

[Prism]

Prism have you seen hectic/ydrasse play together before?

Only in briefly spectated snippets.

[Prism]

That's the feeling I was trying to articulate when I said her content was good but nothing I'd townread her for

I scumread her for reasons largely based on previous experience now though

You don't seem particularly interested in any of:

A) The explanation for exactly how I read you correctly in Binding of Isaac, which you can freely crosscheck
B) The blatant reuse of the tactic you're proposing (which I pre-emptively came up with before ever scumreading you as town, by the way)
C) Engaging in a good-faith conversation on the difference rather than using different context as the end-all shield of which I cannot make a guess around

This reads like you realized things were getting worse before they got better and pivoted accordingly.

[Prism]

If the answer was yes, it's less likely scum!prism decides to come out of the gate pushing you I think.

I have not seen the dynamic play out beyond vague months-old recollections but am very aware of it, if that was the point of your question, which was a large motivator in 129, 134, and 140

[Prism]

A) There hasn't been enough time in the game for progressions to happen

Right, so the bar in 194 is garbage.

B) Chara's Folly happened after Flying Scumsman, I hard townread you there as you pushed me. That's an indication I'll continue to do it despite that scumblip in Scumsman. I think that would encourage you more than discourage on such a tactic

I literally had to draw your attention to the fact that Folly was the only game I did this and that I was scum in Scumsman. I was the one that drew your attention to both of these games and that the trend you gave for Prism-town was incorrect.

I was the one that went back and found the context, and split the hairs over it preemptively with my analysis of it, only to have you essentially go "Well it's different so none of it matters why read into it"

[Prism]

It is frustrating to contend with a false but NAI belief of yours in referring to town-driven pushes (plural). Stop for a second and get it straight, and if you are town chew on the ideas I am presenting along with who flagged these misconceptions and issues for you to begin with.

[Prism]

The last line of 226 reads as desperate and I'm inclined to gladiate this, but I have a very bad tendency of keeping things going. Crying about context and not appreciating exactly how I am using the the difference -even if my conclusion is hypothetically wrong-also reads poorly.

I will take the time and consolidate my issues/stance in a single post if I still feel this way in a few hours.

[Prism]

It is safe to return to 159 unless you want to continue using "I thought the different BoI context points towards Hectic-scum" and "I think the difference points to it not mattering" as a primary point of contention for my read rather than as something extremely secondary. I will gladly concede speculation that I am scumreading you as in instrument to be townread.

[Prism]

It means that I am not able to defend myself from it other than by returning to the legitimacy of the read itself and mentioning that it would be a Scumsman recycle.

[Prism]

After 11 years you stop caring about emphasizing the fact you are town and feel secure enough leaving it an open question when discussing the arguments of others.

[Prism]

They are both direct answers to Hectic. 231 is a quick and concise recenter given the confusion of 229 and 233 is a direct answer to 232.

What parts are trying to say more, exactly?

[Prism]

The premise Hectic is relying on is that my read is faked, the way to respond to this is to return to the read and prove it legitimate, or provide a reason I would not fake it in the first place. I have provided both, and Hectic rejects my point for the second and there is no more to discuss on that front. This only leaves returning to my original read.

Saying "No you're wrong I'm town so my read isn't fake!" is pointless.

[Prism]

Simpler restatement of 240: Debating the motivation for something I'm not doing in the first place is stupid.

[Prism]

I know, that was for Child, but I appreciate explaining your perspective more anyway.

While I could answer what Hectic's argument is in that framework (he has something very coherent) I will leave it to him.

[Prism]

Don't say things like that to me, please. Not even the part about liking my play less this game but liking my play in any game.

I fucking hate it.

[Prism]

Sorry, if you catch me after a workout I tend to be a lot less filtered. You didn't do anything wrong. I just genuinely do not handle anything resembling praise of past play well.

[Prism]

I thought Fidget's reaction to the 1v1 was very questionable. He doesn't really stop to consider the reverse where I would be correctly reading Hectic. This really felt like trying to understand the minimum amount w/ the confidence argument to give a passable stance and immediately read no further. (While I am biased due to the vote on me, Hectic's side also has a lot more depth than that. I took issue with Child's framing of our argument as superficial because both of us have really been splitting hairs)

Lukewarm had by far the best reaction to the 1v1, not even close, and should be voted in no world. I think Johnny's reaction was fine. I'm mostly confused as to why Child didn't vote me, or if they were suggesting it was SvS or TvS w/ the going through the motions argument.

As much as I want to call Infinity a townlean for their interactions with me yesterday I think that'd be a mistake, and I've fought off that instinct enough to call her null.

[Prism]

Apologies, Fidget uses she/her.

[Prism]

Child, you aren't voting and don't appear to have any scumreads other than the ambiguous conclusion about myself and Hectic. Can you walk us through your thinking here?

[Prism]

Fidget's reaction to the 1v1 was towny imo

Why? I am considering voting Fidget over Hectic, reaction was awful imo and eager to take a side using the first reason she came up with.

[Prism]

I'm not opposed to the Johnny vote, but I'm not very optimistic at the moment.

I have one confident townread in Lukewarm. I have intentionally shoved Hectic out of mind for the last 24 hours to revisit later. Everyone else is kind of a tossup for me right now.

[Prism]

I'm about to take a nap so this one will be underexplained.

I was suspicious of Fidget's first post on me/Hectic regardless of what Hectic wound up being, which is why I considered moving my vote there. Her response to me, not quite backtracking but accepting my criticism, was quite good and the question became how knowledgeable of a scum player she was, because that post was more of a question of knowledge than of skill.

I feel significantly better about the slot after reading 327, enough to slot her as a townlean, but am a bit confused as to her relationship with Chara's Folly. Her reaction to Hectic's point about my confidence will make either more or less sense depending on her identity.

[Prism]

Putting aside the question of Hectic for a bit longer, my voting order would probably be Johnny, T3, Child.

[Prism]

VOTE: Johnny

This is E-1.

I feel comfortable voting here without sorting Hectic, though a part of me is regretful that Johnny is on V/LA.

[Prism]

My thinking around the time of 325 was swirling. Something in my mind was that instinctually, I felt it was Johnny+T3 despite T3's vote, but I could also see it being Hectic XOR Fidget & ?, and part of me even wanted that to be the case. I also felt that one of Fidget/Johnny was likely to be scum, but I don't like "one of" assertions like this. I like giving a specific name with a specific alignment.

I wasn't really able to reach a conclusion at the time. This led to me asking "What really are my reads?". The answer was only one with great confidence, which led me to the uncertainty of 325.

I feel significantly better about Fidget, and am very open to being wrong on Hectic though I don't think Johnny-scum would require that. Infinity, while not hardtown, is largely unchanged from how I saw her in Perpetual Melo and perhaps it is worth betting on. Your latest response to me was better on second-pass but I still don't have you as a townread.

[Prism]

Hectic XOR Fidget & ?

For anyone who might be unfamiliar with XOR, it's "exclusive or" where exactly one of Hectic/Fidget would be scum, rather than "inclusive or" where it could be both.

[Prism]

My full ordering right now is something like:

Town
======
Lukewarm

Fidget
Infinity

Ydrasse
Child
T3

Johnny
Hectic
======
Scum

[Prism]

UNVOTE:

I intend to revote in an IRL day or two. It sounds like he has something more meaningful to think about right now.

[Prism]

It's unfortunate that right now we're in an episode of "The Gang Goes On V/LA". After a few weeks of reflection, this is the first time in many years I have been excited to play.

I'm willing to wait for it.

[Prism]

[Prism]

The point about my confidence-which I would classify more as willingness to pursue an instantaneous read rather than true confidence-will likely have to wait a bit longer, despite my eagerness to tackle it.

I don't think that dissuades you from pushing me again given Folly happened after. I'm not saying this a standard go-to strat of yours, but it's certainly possible scum!you sees it as a valuable investment given past history

If you're saying you wouldn't bring this to my attention as scum, you clearly did with the impression it means you're less likely to do it, and see it as something that helps your case

Do you still genuinely believe this? Specifically that it is not just possible but probable that I reuse the strategy, with the defense of reuse as a kind of backup.

[Prism]

I am curious as to why Johnny is the lowest for you, Hectic.

I don't really see anything about the "last few Prism pages are towny" that I should directly comment on. If you are curious about meta this is my summary of my last scumgame.

[Prism]

It is worth saying that while I can see you holding this last few pages are towny take as scum, when I am serious my tone tends to get universally townread, especially when I take the more personally removed approach of the last few pages, so I find it a natural read even if incorrect in process.

[Prism]

It's not so easy; the point of 356 was to highlight that the

backoff on Hectic itself

would have been the endgoal, rather than a correction to an earlier mistake.

[Prism]

I don't think Hectic understands what scum Prism is like or what she plays for. Letting him townread me for the wrong reasons is inviting trouble later down the line if he is town.

I don't really want to get more explicit with detailing how I would hypothetically play this as scum.

[Prism]

This is deeply ironic and you are wildly, wildly offtrack in your interpretation. I think fixing it by being more explicit would be in poor taste.

I would reflect on what Hectic townread about my posts recently, and think carefully about what 363 is suggesting.

[Prism]

Apologies, 361, not 363.

[Prism]

It's only really a problem for town!Hectic if you aren't town, though? If you really are both town you wouldn't do this.

It's a problem for Hectic either way. It's a problem for me later down the line if he's relying on something NAI to conclude I'm town, definitely as town but arguably as scum.

I think when interacting with Hectic specifically you've done a fair amount of things that ping people's radars in a "there's no way scum would do this, it's too obvious" way, and I'd like you to clear up that confusion now. You keep suggesting it's obvious and that we should all be seeing it, but that sounds less like a response and more like a deflection to me.

It is unclear to me what you are referring to with "it's obvious" and the confusion. Is this just referring to 356 to the present? If so I will not clear it up. Anything before 356 I will gladly explain.

[Prism]

This is actually incredibly annoying and I want it over with.

Hectic is wondering if a scum Prism tried, and failed, to get townread with the push on Hectic early, only to salvage it with the town posts about backing off and thinking about the rest of the game. I am suggesting to Hectic that he has it flipped: that getting scumread initially only to be townread for the backoff would have been the point from the start, and linked a game where I planned several similar sequences days or weeks in advance.

If you think this is absurd, then okay.

[Prism]

It does not, not even close, but I am sufficiently frustrated that I even had to go on that spiel for what was supposed to be a oneliner to feel out Hectic with to begin that I am stepping away for several hours.

[Prism]

I am incredibly tempted to selfhammer given the mechanics but will hold off.

[Prism]

Let me be very explicit.

First, drawing Hectic's attention to the possibility was one of the hardest townclaims I have made in my entire life and seeing Infinity flip which posts were which and go "but what if she sold her own plan out for WIFOM" is incredibly tilting.

Second, I repeatedly tried to end the public conversation around this at least 3 times only to have both of you circle back to it, yet somehow the confusion around it is obviously intentional on my end.

Third, it cannot get more explicit than "I do not think Hectic's reasons for townreading me are correct."

[Prism]

Shocker, nuanced rabbit hole that I know in advance no one but me will actually understand or relate to is exactly that.

It's almost like I tried to avoid this by saying "I don't want to explain this" like ten fucking times instead of just lying and going "I'm just linking scum meta for him to check against" or better yet not linking it at all and calling it a day

[Prism]

Literally none of that was even remotely useful or relevant.

[Prism]

Trying to make me feel better is a gigantic waste of your time.

There are multiple things that are slightly wasteful ranging from 1) Asking yourself if this gutread is even vaguely a good idea based off the intent that was actually behind the post, especially when juxtaposed with Melo 2) Metaing myself or another player, my scumgame has literally not changed in ~6 years go reread Owner's if you want 3) Playing with a fidget spinner

[Prism]

You are asking nothing. You have summarized your read as gut, rejected my pointing out I wanted to make Hectic

more

suspicious, not less, and asked or engaged zero beyond rejecting that explanation as working either way for Prism-scum.

You have spent your time preemptively apologizing for a bad vote on me. It has brought me closer to selfhammering, not further, to the point where it is a question as to whether or not it is intentional as how hard I go on tilt, and my penchant for selfvoting as town, are both publicly known.

Ask me something tangible or stop posting to me, period. If you have an apology or a "Sorry it's gut idk how you play scum it's not intentional" I do not care and I do not want to hear it.

[Prism]

I will not be selfhammering at any point this game.

I would have loved to engage with your scumread on me, but there is nothing to engage with. It is gut reaction to one posting sequence, and clarification as to the real and opposite intent was met with "well works anyway imo". It is empty, and there is nowhere else to go on that front.

You do owe me, and you owe more, buy you cannot pay, as the preemptive apologies/excuses in the event of being wrong over anything worthwhile made clear. You blew up any chance I had of using that interaction to read Hectic as a bonus.

I will wait for others, feel free to take the last word.

[Prism]

Cool, this is finally finished.

Hectic, please comment how you thought my aggressive pursuit of a scumread was scum-indicative.

[Prism]

It is worth noting that I indirectly invited a revote in 385, but I did find the delay a bit ?_?

[Prism]

The unvote/revote came specifically in the context of the selfhammer fear. Infinity cited fear of a selfhammer for a reason to unvote; after I clarify that I will not be doing so she revotes.

I don't know if I'd say I was boasting, which has some connotation of pride in something of mine, so much as tearing into her play and how she was inviting me to "engage" while actively giving nothing to work with beyond the excuses she claimed she wouldn't. She fully owned up to the vote, it was the "dialogue" composed of her saying absolutely nothing for me to work with or respond to that drove me up the wall.

I concur that her recognizing ways to work around or explore the gut read further and promptly not doing so, or weighing in on my reaction at all except to fail to placate me, was pretty bad.

[Prism]

I'm currently at E-2, though Fidget might revote later.

[Prism]

Wait it's legitimately E-1 lmfao I thought it was E-2 my ass can't count

knew there was a reason i failed that one math class 5 separate times in college

Could be worse, this quote is a true story.

Earlier today I also had a friend explain that buying components actually gives a discount on final items in League of Legends (ie. more than just removing the cost of the component). He's been playing for like 6 years.

At least you're not that guy.

[Prism]

meanwhile me

[Prism]

I feel there's a bit of a mismatch with the initial vote on me, which was very whimsical and was ostensibly to create dueling wagons for the sake of having them, and how wedded to the vote Infinity was revealed to be over the course of the pages that followed. This occurred without ever actually weighing in or judging my reaction.

[Prism]

There is an extremely long history of me being both pedantic when it comes to me splitting hairs over what I would hypothetically do as scum, which is always worthless as a counterfactual, and of me getting extremely tilted to the point of selfhammering or coming very near it. I have tried to be better about managing how tilted I allow myself to become. I can provide backlinks for both of these if you wish.

[Prism]

That was typed before the vote on me.

It is very important that I get a response from Hectic before I flip. Force him to go to bat against me to secure the elimination; do not hammer prior.

[Prism]

I have had enough of people actively getting in my way of trying to sort that slot.

If he's town and I'm scum let him have his own agency and place his bet rather than capitalizing on it while he's gone.

I do not want him crying that I was obviously town after I have already flipped.

[Prism]

It is taking everything in me to rein in my ego and not launch into a tirade about how awful of a stump I will be or insult the other players. I am aware that I am entitled to nothing, and will play to the best of my ability regardless if I wind up voted.

Getting in the way and hammering while Hectic is gone is objectively awful here is for several reasons.

[Prism]

Do you not understand that I have spent the last 10 pages trying to figure out a way to sort this slot only to have Infinity/Child force me to not only blow it up, but vote me for it, while you are actively encouraging the one last chance I have before he comes in and gets to keep the vote with zero repurcussions?

[Prism]

422 was sleazy.

What Lukewarm is saying is fine and the slot is hardtown.

He does not understand my history with tilt, or why I want to force a player to take a harder stance on me pre-flip, but this is not scummy IMO

[Prism]

Lukewarm, I would advise skimming this game.

I selfhammer on Page 1, fortunately having a mechanical excuse but make it quite clear I would have done it as VT. Day 2, I lose my mind over someone suggesting I would play a certain way as scum, and promptly vote to concede the game.

The playstyle difference here is just bussing, but there are extensive examples in multiple other games of me waxing for pages and pages about what I

actually

would have done as scum if you would like.

These are not moments of pride, but they are exactly what I do not want to repeat this game.

[Prism]

428 was more charitable but 422 ending with alas was gross to me.

I think the last sentence, reading this as a last-ditch-Hectic-save-me gambit, makes perfect sense. The issue here is that I want to sort that fucking slot and Infinity/Child/Lukewarm are all not only voting me out but actively getting in the way and blowing up every attempt with fucking dynamite.

[Prism]

FWIW Infinity's first ask of it was actually useful because it got me to more explicitly poke him after he demurred, but after that I was solidly on the tilt-a-whirl.

[Prism]

It's almost like those are objectively bad traits and bad things to do, and that I have been incredibly intentional about holding off on them this game.

[Prism]

I'm not saying I'm town because I threatened to selfhammer. I'm saying that scumreading me for it is a mistake, and asking why I didn't just do it if it's such an issue with me is like asking "Who cares about the diet, why didn't you just shovel the whole gallon of ice cream?"

[Prism]

My comment postgame in BoI:

Also, even though I alluded to it with my comments about being the worst offender, etc.: I do want to apologize to the game broadly, and to madeline specifically, for my attitude Day 2. That level of toxicity/spite was completely unacceptable, I needed to A) Not react so viciously to begin with B) Replace out before I hit the post button. I should have probably been forcereplaced at the point I submitted/claimed to have submitted a concession, because that was absolutely breaking rule #2 even if I continue to play to my wincon otherwise.

So that was completely over the line and I apologize; I'm not sorry about asking madeline to justify the read on me-that was necessary-but everything about how I went about it and how I treated the other players was unacceptable.

I had come into this day ready to reset and not be toxic, but that would not have made up for my previous behavior and I'm glad to see that the game just ended instead.

My last game, Perpetual Melo, I immediately forcereplaced myself the moment I insulted a site user

Acknowledging I have a bad trait and fighting it does not make me town or a saint, as I have some incentive to fake this narrative. I don't deserve praise for not gamethrowing; but saying "Well why didn't you just do it then?" is revolting.

[Prism]

Your vote absolutely matters, especially when you are actively encouraging hammers on me without letting me do the single thing I have wanted to do today. Ridiculous.

[Prism]

Ydrasse, you seem to think I would make a good flip regardless given that I would be stumped rather than gone. I can't say I agree with the idea I will make a good stump, but I understand why.

From what I can tell, you are extremely confident in your ability to read Hectic, so my wanting his reaction is pretty irrelevant on that front.

Are you holding off just out of courtesy?

[Prism]

They have good reads
Can be charismatic but bot always
If they're being charismatic the slot is probably unflippable esp if bork/notsci realize its prism (just like bork was playing nice with peta because of tenet/2181, it'll be a similar dynamic i think)
If they dont and/or prism isnt trying to like work with people and gets on people's nerves the slot is flippable

i have no idea how he's going to read the game but he was in w13 with bork/notsci/cakez recently so given recent meta probably townreads them but who knows, might not want to work with notscience though. prone to getting tilted lately by people annoying him. will probably make the slot hard to elim though.

He's kinda hard to describe like he has good reads but gets distracted hy random sidethings and will sometimes play antiwincon depending how frustrated he gets

Thanks peta that was super super super helpful

Two scumplayers strategizing to figure out how to capitalize on my tendency to tilt and let the rest of the game lose in Perpetual Melo, which Infinity was in.

[Prism]

This entire wagon is just disgustingly bad to sort on.

Hectic hasn't updated his read in eons and we have players actively hoping he doesn't.
Infinity is hiding behind a single gutread and refusing to do even the slightest bit of basic research or critical thinking.
Child is a case of curiosity killed the cat where they opened the bag labeled "Do not open" then goes "Prism making me open this is so scummy"
Lukewarm has a somewhat rational response but is just wrong

I hope scum is in the second/third because if they are both town so help me god

[Prism]

(Everything before 441 from Lukewarm was rational)

[Prism]

One thing that I haven't talked about was how I felt that you absolutely needing to engage with me about my read was something you'd need to do as scum here, though I can understand a similar mindset as town.

You were a townlean prior and not giving depth makes it virtually impossible to sort you unless I resort to policying.

It's also, like, I'm not sure why you're not thinking about whether my read on you makes me scum until like a day later? Though that's a pretty small part of my read

My thoughts on your vote were not new, but were prompted for posting by Ydrasse. While I am still posting more than I would like, I am not using the thread as my scratchpad, and I am quite happy with it.

[Prism]

I'm in a holding motion where I am still waiting on half the game.

[Prism]

As much as I wanted something more substantive from Infinity, I really do not like this casting.

I have some issues with acknowledging that reason as terrible and using it anyway, but it's unclear to me why Infinity holds

that strong

of a respect for my scumgame that being on the table means I am town. They do not seem to be incorporating that I am willow1, who was scum with her in Draft Mafia, so the only citation for this is Owner's Market. While that game was both a prototypical scumgame and one where I carried, it was not at all a difficult game and my level of play reflected this.

I am also troubled with the "This is too easy" line, given that two players voting me were AFK (ie. votes not bandwagoning/likely NAI), and later one of those swapped with someone very town. The pivot votes were Infinity and Child, and it's not like a scum partner on the sidelines can afford to hard defend me at E-1. Where was the resistance supposed to come from to save Prism-scum?

[Prism]

Johhny, Faries, and Prism are my top 3 scum after a reread.

This is my current top 2 though Hectic is an unknown.

I would slot Infinity as null. Just no idea what she is doing at all.

[Prism]

Again, with the comments/shield about having no idea of how I play scum, this sudden awareness is extremely out of left field.

[Prism]

I am not a big fan of Fidget really being a focus of Ydrasse and now included in the PoE for Infinity, I found several posts back in the 300s very town that I elaborated on at that time, but she did not have to unvote me or show up in the thread at all yesterday.

I am still alive because she did so. Her initial post about me/Hectic and vote on me struck me as opportunistic but the rest has been the opposite.

[Prism]

So who are you thinking about/wanting to look at right now? I imagine there are still thoughts about me swirling around, but curious as to where you go from here.

[Prism]

Did you happen to understand my tree jokes?

[Prism]

Thanks; I will chew on all of that quite a bit and perhaps say more later.

[Prism]

I won't revote him until he shows back up, as I still want to give space to take care of anything he needs to, but my vote will likely wind up there afterwards.

The people I most want to hear from are Johnny, Hectic, and Child. Until I get more from them I feel in limbo.

I don't want to be like "Find somebody else to vote!", but virtually every Child post is either about or responding to me. 306 is probably the most substantive otherwise. It's time to diversify.

[Prism]

I look forward to it. Your current vote was already negligent last time you posted, now it is horrifically so.

[Prism]

Reread Fidget, posts are all solid and still a townlean. Probably will need flips to sort her decisively.

Reread Johnny, 252 is better than I realized at first pass. Reads on T3/Ydrasse aren't wrong. It's really just 253 that I don't like. Still probably the best vote but this leaves me increasingly skeptical of other slots.

Came close to voting Child but have decided to hold off. They need to be more forthcoming with reads on other slots.

[Prism]

To be more specific: Are you saying that I would be unable to restrain myself from selfhammering as town, or that I would not

want

to restrain myself to begin with?

[Prism]

Also I literally said "I will not selfhammer ever" to spur someone to revote me after unvoting specifically in fear of a selfhammer.

I won what I wanted with an unvote only to throw it back is a...viable but interesting thesis

[Prism]

I'm not convinced they're town but I'd vote both Johnny and Hectic over Child atm

[Prism]

At the risk of committing suicide, right after I've gotten out of the fire and successfully pulled more diverse content out of Child:

VOTE: Hectic

Rereading our initial interaction I am still skeptical of both the initial read on me and the followups. I do not like his jumping on Lukewarm's reaction to the 1v1, which was by far the most town of the bunch. Later, he rereads the marathon game I pointed out and shifts this to a townlean. At no point does the fact that I was the one to highlight this to begin with faze him. 175 was mostly in line with what I expected him to do after I stand firm in 172, which was to go more on offense. 348 is still trash.

160 seems to be trying to shake me rather than a genuine attempt to sort me and I still feel like the very early game was a lot more focused on hitting tonal markers, ex. with Ydrasse/Fidget, than doing any real sorting.

I strongly feel as though he unvotes in absence of a deeper take based off what I have seen in Binding of Isaac.

[Prism]

I would still favor a Johnny vote as a more likely compromise; my fear now is something more like Hectic/Ydrasse going through the motions than legitimately sorting each other.

[Prism]

Lastly, I legitimately don't know what he's thinking with the confidence point given that he knew I was willow1, unless he just completely forgot Happy Face Mafia existed. He was never getting away with lying about that as scum and it clearly did not factor into his read on me at all as town.

[Prism]

To be blunt, that reads like a crock of shit to me because that reaction didn't look genuine to begin with and even if it hypothetically is it's so trivial to fake that I probably do it with alcohol poisoning.

Agree to disagree but I cannot emphasize how vehemently I disagree with that paragraph from top to bottom.

[Prism]

i think my read on hectic is buried deep in having a lot of experience with him and having played with him enough to know that the frustrations he felt for how you were pushing him were genuine in a way i don't think he would be able to replicate as scum (also because i don't think he thinks to do that unless he's specifically playing around me and assume this is something that i'll expect from him which is like. a lot of layers to plan ahead i feel like?)

Have you considered that the target of that reaction was almost certainly myself?

I'm just blown away by the idea that Hectic can't fake frustration/fear of a tunnel a la Scumsman/early Folly. I have not seen Hectic scum to date, and do not believe this assertion to be true, but if it were he would not only be the worst DC winner in the history of the site but

worse at the alignment than the site average

This is just ridiculously narrow & treats Hectic like a brick, and this does not change even if is in fact town.

[Prism]

The qualifier "in a way" for justifying the genuineness of his frustration has me so insanely tilted

[Prism]

If it was something about his reads or progressions I don't think I would mind as much but the idea that his reaction to me/emotion displayed is out of range is appalling to me. If that universe is somehow the case I want to live in a different one.

[Prism]

Okay, sorry, I've calmed down a bit, I know that was harsh. That idea offended the side of me that views mafia very aesthetically, which isn't as relevant to what Hectic actually is in practice.

[Prism]

My concern with Child was that they've held off and been very intentional about holding off on voting and reserving their thoughts until sharp. That's usually a great thing as town, but with only really having the push on me, it made reading them quite difficult. I appreciated the wall and found it pretty solid.

I don't know if I share the concern that they don't have an "aura of solving"

[Prism]

It confuses me that you see clearly that you have a sampling error with Hectic, and that you have this sort of less-rational inertia of wanting to be right, but are just stepping right into the hole in the ground anyway.

[Prism]

That annoyance/fear wasn't an accident as scum, it would have been intentional hoping it shook me off. I didn't like that framing and found it unnatural.

[Prism]

You can feel nervous when getting pressed as scum, but it's not uncontrollable or completely useless and you can absolutely selectively show/channel it for an intentional result

[Prism]

It would not shock me if Hectic is town. Tammy has previously pointed out that I have an issue with raking people more familiar with my play completely over the coals, and Hectic has once before been a victim even if I'm 3 for 4 (w/ Happy Face mafia added) overall.

If that's the case, though, I feel as though I don't have enough information to see it and am more than happy to vote him until I do.

[Prism]

Earlier I knew the degree of familiarity might help. The more recent one tilted the hell out of me because of how I view the game.

I wasn't even aware off the top of my head that you had one, and even thinking I still can't remember it. I was definitely not looking for one specifically from you so it probably was not memorable in contrast to the readflip on me. I might review your ISO if I feel like it, but right now I don't.

[Prism]

It's not really a you or your read problem, it's fine to townread him because when you come down to it you think he's genuine. I view the game very aesthetically, somewhere between a sport and an art, and place a huge weight on fundamental skills. To me, Hectic not knowing how to fake that kind of frustration/annoyance would be akin to meeting an MLB player and watching them not know how to hold the bat.

But maybe he doesn't, or maybe he does and is town anyway.

[Prism]

This website does enjoy proving me wrong anytime I assume scum knows how to play the game

[Prism]

The crux of your push on me was the selfhammering line. I presented the history, explained that I am trying to be less spiteful, cited regretful posts in contexts where I have no incentivize to lie, and will not do so despite the temptation.

If you think I happen to be lying this time/this instance for towncred, then okay, but your starting thesis seems to be that I would not feel or act this way to begin with, and you have been given all the evidence in the world that I do regularly.

I don't understand why you are hung up on the selfhammer line and not revisited other, more indicative parts of my play.

[Prism]

I'll reserve waxing further on my personal history more out of courtesy than lack of relevancy. Thanks for making that more clear.

[Prism]

It should be very obvious that my top pick is Hectic and my second is Johnny. I gave plenty of my perspective on this in the post I voted him.

I have been very clear that I feel I need more information from both Johnny and Hectic. The context of 498 is that I'm increasingly growing wary of other slots I have given mostly free passes (eg. Infinity/Ydrasse). Your quote of 498 clips both that and why I thought Johnny was the best vote at the time of that post:

It's really just 253 that I don't like. Still probably the best vote but this leaves me increasingly skeptical of other slots.

Your quote of 539 clips me being very explicit about wanting more information:

If [he is town], I feel as though I don't have enough information to see it and am more than happy to vote him until I do.

Other posts outlining this idea 1 2 3

I have split hairs over the use of the term "confidence" repeatedly and will do so again. Willingness to aggressively pursue my reads should not be interpreted as certainty that they are right.

[Prism]

Implication of the quoted 498's "skeptical of other slots" is that lower confidence in Johnny means a higher chance of other slots, and a bit here.

my fear now is something more like Hectic/Ydrasse going through the motions than legitimately sorting each other.

This is more skepticism by default than anything actually scummy. I had a post that called the people in this section the "next on deck" that I don't appear to have actually posted, but I believe the bottom 3 at that time were Johnny/Hectic/Child while the "next on deck" was T3/Ydrasse/Infinity. These were ordered S->T in both lists of 3.

[Prism]

I will eat Hectic's oldest athletic shoe boiled in a pot of grape Kool-Aid if Lukewarm is scum and I feel OK putting Fidget as a townlean. I also feel really, really good about Infinity's intentions the last few pages, which were genuinely concerned at a time when she would benefit greatly from just letting me tunnel Hectic.

[Prism]

not voting: prism

I...don't see why I'm here? This page it seems like you were very skeptical of me suddenly being in your PoE, the explanation+backlinks explain that but does it fully negate any skepticism?

Lukewarm is mostly meta but even this page was ridiculously town. I had suggested focusing on other parts of my slot rather than just the selfhammer line. Lukewarm explains it's not just the selfhammer line but my entire behavior around E-1. I say okay. Conversation was over, keep the vote on me and call it a day.

Instead he goes and reads anyway and comes back with 554.

[Prism]

I'm both working and doing frantic house cleaning right now so will be a bit more haphazard/erratic with my posting.

[Prism]

Now that you're at that point, DON'T read any of my scumgames, please only revisit when already close to voting me

[Prism]

@prism Though I feel like you were implying earlier that if I read one of your scumgames it would be apparent that you're town here? I highly doubt that anyway but did I misinterpret you

It's useful for understanding specific strategies and how I approach the game, ex. Me trying to lead Hectic to the possibility that the entire sequence (through finding that most recent set of posts town) was planned. Your original questions iirc were actually helpful to that point but when you flipped what would have been the point it annoyed me. It also would not have been worth it as scum and is one of the hardest townclaims I have ever made but this requires depth of knowledge of me that I don't think I can expect from others.

It was more to get you to think about how I play overall and shift your perspective on me, which was gut and wrong, rather than proving anything divergent.

In contrast, if you soul/toneread me as extremely town, and are concerned that I have most of the table pocketed, both of those are borderline NAI.

[Prism]

(I say this because I've noticed a trend of Prism having extremely high WIM now and it was used as reasoning to townread her at least a couple of times)

Iceland explicitly capitalized on this misconception.

[Prism]

"Outpost by far" does not quite apply to that game but my posting activity was extreme, and was only rivaled by two very enthusiastic new players matching the energy.

[Prism]

Ydrasse, do you mind laying out how your read on Child has progressed over time?

Perhaps there is a post to follow, but whether there is or not it is curious to me that you unvoted before anything else here; Child is nowhere close to eliminated and only 3 minutes passed. Plenty of time to chew on the post further.

[Prism]

Maybe it's because I am illiterate and read slow as shit but I'm skeptical of that.

My PoE is basically Hectic/Johnny/Ydrasse with T3 next ondeck. For T3, I have thought his reads/reactions fine and he's probably just going with the flow of his gut regardless of alignment.

[Prism]

I would be moderately surprised if the list of 4 I gave did not have both scum in it. Fidget/Child are conceivable, Infinity less so after her interaction with me on Hectic even though her progression on me is still a rollercoaster, and I do not want to eat a shoe.

I should probably elaborate on Child at some point when I feel better irl

[Prism]

In that scenario you're typically more concerned with breaking into the townbloc over breaking it up completely.

I don't like the rushed unvote from Ydrasse precisely because it felt performative for an audience rather than genuinely sorting the slot or engaging with what Child said.

[Prism]

I understand what you are claiming your intentions were.

[Prism]

I'll probably have to metadive pretty soon but few things are more painful than getting stood up by someone you care about more than they do so I'm going to just shovel sushi and watch Dodgeball instead of play mafia.

P-Edit: Leaning no.

[Prism]

it's okay i have patches o'houlihan

[Prism]

Well, 59 minutes and 56 seconds into the movie I no longer have Patches O'Houlihan, but I am revived and ready to play mafia again...in another 30 minutes or so

[Prism]

Lukewarm was very explicit about wanting someone to hammer ASAP, before you got a chance to weigh in. My being scum in that sentence there is a worst case ccounterfactual.

[Prism]

Good to have you back, by the way.

[Prism]

VOTE: Johnny

The short of this is that, coming back fresh from V/LA to find what is 100% a dumpster fire for scum, jumping straight to townreading so many people, especially if one of them is me, over something more open is a big risk for Hectic as scum. I had this vote typed up before he pushed on Child, which IMO opens the possibility more, but I still feel comfortable moving off. I think his reasoning is pretty ontrack with my concern for Child-a lot of being very careful with reads and defensive when pushed-but I felt better about the wall.

I do think Hectic makes a good point about Child's read on T3.

[Prism]

Hectic I'll be honest this scumread feels like you forced yourself to come up with a scumread

My concern is that it comes immediately after originally ceding this giant block of townleans, and with very well thought-out reasoning. This is a very good, crisp angle: but searching for a scumread is exactly what you should be doing as town, so I'm not going to dwell on whether or not the sequence was planned.

[Prism]

Hmmm okay accuracy, I can't weigh in as much there atm but will probably review the wall from Child more indepth.

Vote preference right now would be Johnny -> Ydrasse -> T3 -> Child

[Prism]

I do not know why I read 646 as so town but I do.

Locktown: Lukewarm, Infinity
Strong townlean: Fidget, Hectic
Null: Child, T3
Scumleans: Ydrasse, Johnny

Ordered overall T->S

[Prism]

Actually I'm going to bump Hectic down to weak townlean 646 isn't that good considering the Child push was telegraphed in 633.

Also curious to me that you never wound up weighing in on the suggestion that the whole original sequence between us was planned, whether you found it ridiculous or not I think not touching it is a bit ?

[Prism]

Myself on Page 15, not someone suggesting that we're SvS but a suggestion for what I would have done as scum

[Prism]

Normally I'd say it's not a big deal and move on but there were like 3 pages consumed by it, and the confusion from Child is precisely in reaction to that suggestion of mine

[Prism]

this is why i only vibe and don't try to give thoughts. lmao.

I don't think your extended thoughts are what got you into trouble with me, and they seem to have gotten mostly positive reactions from other slots. I can't recall off the top of my head what the ratio for Fidget is.

[Prism]

Yeah, that post.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ That explanation works for me.

[Prism]

Mafia is a sport of violence, exclusion and degradation. So, when you're picking players in gym class, remember to pick the bigger, stronger kids for your team. That way, you can all gang up on the weaker ones, like Ydrasse here.

[Prism]

Note that while I wanted to shitpost with a Dodgeball quote, I do not think you are at all weak or playing poorly. I think you are playing very well as town-your reads are likely killer if you're town-and I think you've been making fundamentally sound decisions if scum while still putting out solid progressions & good tone. I think the level of this game across the board is very high.

Good games are hard and keeping motivation & persistence is one of the biggest challenges imo

[Prism]

The whole "confusion created" thing was in reference to Prism supposedly acting scummy on purpose to bait you, only for Infinity and I to notice it instead and jump on her. Rather than actually clear this up right away, she decides that

it's our fault for noticing the scummy thing and drags out the engagement for much longer than it needed to go on.

You literally quoted me repeatedly saying I didn't want to talk about it further. When I realize it's going on, I immediately correct it. It might be worth dragging on if it's scummy from me but yes, it is 100% your fault for both of your persistence in questioning something I repeatedly signaled I didn't want to talk about.

What reason would Town have to not clear that up as soon as it became a problem?

It's almost like

I wasn't trying to use it to get townread but instead get a read on Hectic.

I'm going to turn the Prism part back around on you here: If Prism has a history of self-hammering to mechanically clear herself, if she were town why would she threaten to do it in this setup instead of actually doing it? I read it as a threat like "I've done this before so watch out, take your vote off or I'll self-hammer" but her going back on it later made me feel like she was lying, and possibly had a role that couldn't come back after a hammer.

I have repeatedly quoted sections from other games where I make clear I don't enjoy that spiteful side of me and have actively fought against it. Whether I could succeed or not is one thing, acting "Why would she even try to resist?" and completely ignoring the answer+evidence presented is absolute horseshit that I have called out at least 3 times this game.

I said in the original post that I would not selfhammer despite the temptation. When Infinity unvoted in fear of the selfhammer, I made it clear I would not selfhammer. This was not a threat.

What is a threat is that I am legitimately willing to policy you if you keep ignoring that I have repeatedly said I do not want to play badly out of spite.

[Prism]

I am unsure if you are scum and choosing to ignore the 3-5 posts outlining exactly why I did not selfhammer+citing outside posts expressing the exact same sentiment or if you legitimately tune out anything against your pre-existing view.

Thinking I am unable to resist and am therefore scum is one thing. The inability to read, reject/accept, respond to, or even acknowledge the provided answer to your question despite it being handed to you on a silver platter repeatedly is inexcusably terrible.

[Prism]

The fact that you scumread me I can accept.

What is unacceptable is you completely putting your head in the fucking sand repeatedly and not even bothering to reject the answers I'm presenting you. It's horrific.

[Prism]

I don't think Hectic understands what scum Prism is like or what she plays for. Letting him townread me for the wrong reasons is inviting trouble later down the line if he is town.

I don't really want to get more explicit with detailing how I would hypothetically play this as scum.

This is deeply ironic and you are wildly, wildly offtrack in your interpretation.

I think fixing it by being more explicit would be in poor taste.

I would reflect on what Hectic townread about my posts recently, and think carefully about what 363 is suggesting.

Is this just referring to 356 to the present?

If so I will not clear it up. Anything before 356 I will gladly explain.

This is actually incredibly annoying and I want it over with.

[Explicit explanation]

It does not, not even close, but

I am sufficiently frustrated that I even had to go on that spiel for what was supposed to be a oneliner to feel out Hectic with to begin that I am stepping away for several hours.

Look how badly I kept baiting you and Infinity to keep talking about this, you can tell how badly I wanted to keep talking about it with you two haha

[Prism]

Spoilering the quote wall from the "Why wouldn't she just selfhammer?" point:

Spoiler: Quotewall

It's almost like those are objectively bad traits and bad things to do, and that I have been incredibly intentional about holding off on them this game.

I'm not saying I'm town because I threatened to selfhammer. I'm saying that scumreading me for it is a mistake, and asking why I didn't just do it if it's such an issue with me is like asking "Who cares about the diet, why didn't you just shovel the whole gallon of ice cream?"

My comment postgame in BoI:

Also, even though I alluded to it with my comments about being the worst offender, etc.: I do want to apologize to the game broadly, and to madeline specifically, for my attitude Day 2. That level of toxicity/spite was completely unacceptable, I needed to A) Not react so viciously to begin with B) Replace out before I hit the post button. I should have probably been forcereplaced at the point I submitted/claimed to have submitted a concession, because that was absolutely breaking rule #2 even if I continue to play to my wincon otherwise.

So that was completely over the line and I apologize; I'm not sorry about asking madeline to justify the read on me-that was necessary-but everything about how I went about it and how I treated the other players was unacceptable.

I had come into this day ready to reset and not be toxic, but that would not have made up for my previous behavior and I'm glad to see that the game just ended instead.

My last game, Perpetual Melo, I immediately forcereplaced myself the moment I insulted a site user

Acknowledging I have a bad trait and fighting it does not make me town or a saint, as I have some incentive to fake this narrative. I don't deserve praise for not gamethrowing; but saying "Well why didn't you just do it then?" is revolting.

To be more specific: Are you saying that I would be unable to restrain myself from selfhammering as town, or that I would not

want

to restrain myself to begin with?

Also I literally said "I will not selfhammer ever" to spur someone to revote me after unvoting specifically in fear of a selfhammer.

I won what I wanted with an unvote only to throw it back is a...viable but interesting thesis

We have absolutely been over this repeatedly and you have not once acknowledged the answer even to reject it.

[Prism]

Deadline expires in

(expired on 2021-06-12 21:58:45).

While I have tried to be pretty patient with my voting, I want to bring this to collective attention.

[Prism]

I am happy to see the acknowledgement of my points; I think your clarification of what is meant by "confusion" is very helpful, and there the blame falls squarely on me. I thought you were saying the confusion was

intentional

on my end, as opposed to me playing poorly regardless of alignment. I accept the latter. I also accept the argument that I wouldn't really be able to restrain myself as town.

I will accept the criticism for how I responded to Infinity, and take ownership of making you feel as though I don't respect the other players or the space in the game. I am human and got frustrated with Infinity and yourself, even as I decided to explain something I did not want to for both of your sakes. I can be very demanding and harsh when it comes to challenging players to meet my own subjective standard of play. Finally, my enthusiasm is a double-edged sword that leads to me posting too often and taking up too much space. I try to counterbalance this with posts like 494 and 498, encouraging you to branch out in a way that was for all of our benefit, but I recognize behavior does not cancel out. I have been harsh this game, and while this wasn't included in your wall I think 247 was unacceptably mean as an example.

As a final note, this conversation prompted by ignoring the more respectful ask in 505:

To be more specific: Are you saying that I would be unable to restrain myself from selfhammering as town, or that I would not

want

to restrain myself to begin with?

I take up too much space and can be a real jerk, but I don't think I've ignored a single question posed to me. I typed those paragraphs explaining my point as much for your sake as for mine. I hope we all can do the same for each other. Ignoring my point over just respectfully rejecting it and calling it a day was clearly counterproductive. Now that we're on the same page, I hope you can be more forthcoming with your actual reasoning moving forward, and I will keep striving to be better on my end both by posting less and treating the other players with more respect.

[Prism]

As much shit as I rib notscience, the quote that I am most proud of comes from him:

Prism plays hard and doesn’t like the halfassed Shit

But is fair and willing to give space to engage

I take a lot of pride in my level of effort and in pushing other players to dig deeper and play harder. Simultaneously, I can overshoot it, and clearly I have done so.

[Prism]

It's 2v7 mountainous where town gets treestumps (non-voting IC) and occasionally a chance to gain an extra elim (by eliminating someone already primed)

We get flips from elims, treestumps are revealed to be town-aligned and may keep posting while scum flips and exits the game

[Prism]

Losing an elimination, which is in limited supply and the only way to eliminate scum, is not optimal. The difference between here and a regular game for a stump is that you get to talk.

[Prism]

I suspect there is more theory around early burns but I think you get the gist and what is actually important.

[Prism]

I already have comments but I will hold off until you finish. Don't know how much I'll be around today as I have a long drive after work but will try to answer any questions at least.

[Prism]

I don't think there's been a question for me, correct me if I'm wrong. I'll go ahead and make my comment from earlier since you seem to be done for the night. I might go back and revisit what I called desperate from Hectic when I'm not preoccupied.

Infinity's read on me was early for my liking but what she was saying 100% made sense to me and I could easily fill in the gaps. The "towny antics" were very similar to what she had just seen in Perpetual Melo. I did not mind the vagueness because I could easily fill in what was missing and make the connection (the specific antic was manipulating Ydrasse into voting someone). I think lack of scum sample meant it was bold to slot me as town for something that could be NAI stylistic, but the connection was clear to me.

[Prism]

The pace of this game is way too slow right now for being just over a day to deadline. I don't like being the one to set the pace. No one exploring alternatives or weighing in makes it difficult to sort around a wagon even if it makes us more likely to get my preferred vote. I'll be doing some reading in the sun today but would gladly spend time on this game if it picks up again.

Kind of curious as to whether Ydrasse still wants a Child vote after their last few posts.

[Prism]

I have not seen anything making me inclined to unvote. I think realtime readthrough reactions are easy to fake, which is an obstacle you are running into with me. I am waiting to see where your reads fall in the end and how persuasive I find them.

[Prism]

I forgot Ydrasse unvoted Child and that Hectic even voted them.

I'm getting old, I guess.

[Prism]

I empathize with this if you are town but "if" is a very large qualifier here. I am pleased that others are now back and weighing in precisely for the reason you're describing.

[Prism]

It's ambiguous whether "for scum" means they're the ones taking/driving it or not. Do you think scum is driving the wagon on you, or do you not really know at this point?

[Prism]

I don't speak for the other voters but the promise line/dismay is not getting you as far with me as just completing the catch-up would IMO, not that I want to make any promises. You are in this position for your predecessor but even if you get voted out you will have plenty of agency left in the game, even if eliminating you turns out to be not optimal.

[Prism]

Let me sleep clidd. I promise I'm town. If you're town, just give me time to convince you. You have nothing to lose.

This is a quote of yours from a scumgame, so I believe I am right to be skeptical.

I found 3 others for a 2/2 split but both of the more appealing ones were scum-you.

[Prism]

Right, well, sorry for getting in the way of your catch-up. I will get coffee and circle back later.

[Prism]

I will stay on you for as long as your content remains all thin and empty. All bark, no bite.

[Prism]

I'm on my phone but everyone but you, Ydrasse, and T3 have towntold in my eyes. Johnny had one okay wall but was very focused early on just tonally touching base with people, and I didn't like him going after Fidget.

I am not even remotely impressed by the reactions on readthrough, esp. wrt Infinity whose read on me was suspicious only for being potentially ingratiating, not that it didn't make sense, and nor am I impressed with the appeals and promises.

I believe you are acutely aware of the lack of direct evidence against your slot, whose ISO is incredibly thin, via previous discussions.

Ydrasse/T3 are my runner-up votes and I will likely tunnel Ydrasse to hell if you flip scum. I have detailed why Lukewarm and Infinity are locktown previously, along with why I townlean Fidget and Hectic. Child I am more ambivalent on. I am sure you will encounter those if you finish your catch-up.

[Prism]

I would again suggest finishing reading. You are more likely to understand my perspective by doing so, or at least have something now that you can verify for yourself. Hypothetically, as scum I am saying things knowing you are here to take them into account, and adjusting accordingly. This is not true of things before your replace-in.

Perhaps you will find the real scum in your read, whether that is Infinity or myself, and be able to present a stronger case for it rather than simply throwing the same self-serving AtE you do in your scumgames hoping that I was born yesterday. If I am scum, you will be able to mount a stronger case against me rather than relying on reading into my pushing your empty AtE.

[Prism]

Perhaps a more direct challenge is in order.

I think you're all bark no bite. I think you will finish your reread never. I expect you to never mount a solid, well-founded push on someone.

If I'm wrong, shut up and bite. Finish your read. Find the scum.

[Prism]

I really want to believe that Prism is town.

This is weird to me given that my statements today. I would have expected the opposite feeling.

817 is a big step up in quality of content IMO. I still think this is fakeable but it's much better play and I'm grateful.