Open 815: Forest Fire Redux [Endgame]

[Hectic]

Who suggested that?

[Prism]

Myself on Page 15, not someone suggesting that we're SvS but a suggestion for what I would have done as scum

[Prism]

Normally I'd say it's not a big deal and move on but there were like 3 pages consumed by it, and the confusion from Child is precisely in reaction to that suggestion of mine

[Ydrasse]

this is why i only vibe and don't try to give thoughts. lmao.

[Prism]

this is why i only vibe and don't try to give thoughts. lmao.

I don't think your extended thoughts are what got you into trouble with me, and they seem to have gotten mostly positive reactions from other slots. I can't recall off the top of my head what the ratio for Fidget is.

[Hectic]

This is actually incredibly annoying and I want it over with.

Hectic is wondering if a scum Prism tried, and failed, to get townread with the push on Hectic early, only to salvage it with the town posts about backing off and thinking about the rest of the game. I am suggesting to Hectic that he has it flipped: that getting scumread initially only to be townread for the backoff would have been the point from the start, and linked a game where I planned several similar sequences days or weeks in advance.

If you think this is absurd, then okay.

This post? I don't really have anything to comment on it, I can see it being a genuine take regardless of alignment, but probably less likely to come from scum admitting the plan from the start

[Hectic]

this is why i only vibe and don't try to give thoughts. lmao.

You mostly get townread when you give thoughts nowadays though

[Prism]

Yeah, that post.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ That explanation works for me.

[Ydrasse]

i think i'm frustrated because i feel i'm giving slightly more effort than i intended to and it's fallen flat

[Prism]

Mafia is a sport of violence, exclusion and degradation. So, when you're picking players in gym class, remember to pick the bigger, stronger kids for your team. That way, you can all gang up on the weaker ones, like Ydrasse here.

[Prism]

Note that while I wanted to shitpost with a Dodgeball quote, I do not think you are at all weak or playing poorly. I think you are playing very well as town-your reads are likely killer if you're town-and I think you've been making fundamentally sound decisions if scum while still putting out solid progressions & good tone. I think the level of this game across the board is very high.

Good games are hard and keeping motivation & persistence is one of the biggest challenges imo

[Ydrasse]

thank you, it really is appreciated

i feel pretty shitty so that's channeling into here atm and i'm trying to take a Break.

[Infinity 324]

<3 I appreciate you

[Ydrasse]

<33

[Child of Fairies]

Well, I read everything. All of Lukewarm, Fidget, Prism, Infinity, Ydrasse, Child are towny which is an interesting conundrum. There's even reason to think T3 is towny for the lack of care for progression and swinging his vote around and likely following his gut. Of those, I think Child is most likely to he scum for the way he was aggressively scumreading Prism, almost trying to appear as strong on the push, perhaps because he would think it looks towny, it read a little over the top, yet only listing Prism as a scumlean in his eventual readslist.

Lukewarm did a similar thing but it felt a lot more genuine, not sure why, probably because he fleshed out the reasons in which Prism could be manipulating using the self-hammer shenanigans. In fact, Fairy Child's eventual reason to scumleam Prism does borrow directly from Lukewarm's reasoning, although I'll check this after posting (on my phone)

Johnny's inactivity seems to be site wide but the easy TvT stance is probably a scummy enough thing to vote for this game

Alright, I have a scumread now and feel much better

There's a difference between "least towny townread" and "Scumread". What changed in four posts? Especially since you supposedly read all of the posts in the thread, said this, and

then

decided you were going to scumread me later.

I didn't only have Prism as a scumlean in that post, too. I also had T3 and Johnny, the former of which you actually acknowledged in a later post meaning you'd seen it and chosen to ignore it or hadn't actually read yet.

I probably should've made the Prism part a bit more clear since both you and Fidget have now done the same thing, but that wasn't an "eventual" reason to be sring Prism, it was an "additional" reason after most of my other posts had been related to Prism. I pointed this out to fidget later, which you proceeded to acknowledge, but it was only meant to cover what had happened since my last Prism-related post because it was supposed to be a post about the rest of the cast.

Also, I can't be "aggressively pushing Prism" the whole time and just following up on something Lukewarm had said later to form my sr on her. Those are conflicting statements, as they establish two different timelines for me doing the same thing.

This is actually incredibly annoying and I want it over with.

Hectic is wondering if a scum Prism tried, and failed, to get townread with the push on Hectic early, only to salvage it with the town posts about backing off and thinking about the rest of the game. I am suggesting to Hectic that he has it flipped: that getting scumread initially only to be townread for the backoff would have been the point from the start, and linked a game where I planned several similar sequences days or weeks in advance.

If you think this is absurd, then okay.

I'm sorry for any frustration I may have caused, and that maybe my brain's just being dumb here, but are you suggesting to Hectic that you're playing a similar game to your last scumgame? Because that game you linked for similarity is a scumgame. I can't tell if you're suggesting that you're playing the same and thus Hectic shouldn't townread you for this or you're playing different and that he should townread you for this.

I still feel like this line is something town wouldn't really do, though, and while you could probably argue that scum wouldn't either given how it's turned out, but I feel like scum has more reason to try this given the amount of confusion it's created, so...

VOTE: Prism

If I'm wrong and just bad at reading I will unvote, but this feels fine right now.

Hmhmhm, is this reasoning genuine... I think there's a lot more reason for scum not to do what Prism did than town, scum probably don't care about the incorrect reasoning, but there's reason for town to worry that it could come back to bite them down the line if the other party sees that, as Prism explains. I particularly don't like the "confusion created" line though, it's silly to assume Prism would post it to cause "confusion" in the thread

The whole "confusion created" thing was in reference to Prism supposedly acting scummy on purpose to bait you, only for Infinity and I to notice it instead and jump on her. Rather than actually clear this up right away, she decides that it's our fault for noticing the scummy thing and drags out the engagement for much longer than it needed to go on. What reason would Town have to not clear that up as soon as it became a problem?

Not really a fan of Fairy Child's readlist either

Dislike how he randomly throws in the possibility of a Ydrasse/Prism scumteam, yet doesn't comment on why he would think this could be the case

Dislike how he says it's "interesting" that Fidget dislikes Lukewarm which is an unpopular opinion, yet fails to ascertain anything alignment indicative from it

Dislike the reasoning on Prism since the plan stated there doesn't really make sense? For scum!Prism to say she won't self-hammer herself is going against the whole point of linking a game where she did it as town in the first place, particularly when Infinity had unvoted due to it. Makes more sense if she says she won't while on L-1 since the question of why she isn't doing it while in that state might come up, but to do so after Infinity unvotes and puts her on L-2 invites her to revote and dispels trying to scare people from voting her by linking the game in the first place. That took a while to articulate but not sure what Fairy sees about this being a scum-motivated plan, seems surface level scummy to take this take

There isn't really any point in trying to make a scumteam on day 1 when nobody's flipped, is there? If Prism were to flip scum I could maybe see a world where Ydra's her partner and came in to try and bail her out, but that theory's extremely reliant on seeing one of them flip first so it's not worth bringing up much until one of them does?

I did point it out later, but I could see either side having a motivation to push on Lukewarm a little bit, either for genuine sorting reasons or to try and sew distrust in a widely townread slot. So it's NAI to me on its own and Fidget's iso wasn't conclusively one way or the other for me to draw a real conclusion from the rest of her posts.

I'm going to turn the Prism part back around on you here: If Prism has a history of self-hammering to mechanically clear herself, if she were town why would she threaten to do it in this setup instead of actually doing it? I read it as a threat like "I've done this before so watch out, take your vote off or I'll self-hammer" but her going back on it later made me feel like she was lying, and possibly had a role that couldn't come back after a hammer.

T3 reads opportunistic scum to me, but since everybody else seems to be content to have him as a backburner read right now I don't see much of an incentive to try and push on him.

Lastly, I don't like this part. following everyone else's opinion rather than starting the push or trying to talk to others about it, this is also the second time this has been said, but he hasn't cared to ask talk more about it or ask Lukewarm about him who seems to have meta on him. I think this fits well into scum seeing something town is doing as scummy, and wanting to point that out, but being afraid to go beyond due to the consensus opinion not matching it

Like I said, T3 is everybody's backburner read. People seem to just have him as a "well, if getting rid of these people doesn't end the game, then T3", so I've been putting it as a low priority, "we'll get there eventually" sort of thing and just focussing on other players right now. I did talk about T3 with Fidget afterwards, and we both explained our prespectives on T3 there, during with T3 posted a single sentence. So it's the combination of T3 being people's backburner things and the huge amount of energy it would take to get anything worthwhile out of T3 makes me okay with just leaving him until everybody's ready to take him off the backburner and actually do something.

I'm not really sold on this scumread of yours. It feels less like a real scumread and more like you going "wait, I need a scumread that's not Johnny" so you picked me to try and stretch into one. A lot of your things you bring up are things I explained later to Fidget or outright contradictory with eachother, like saying I was aggressively pushing Prism but also saying I only came in after Lukewarm made a point? I'm also not really sure how you ended up posting saying you'd read everything, then your next five or so posts all made it seem like you were reading my posts for the first time.

[Child of Fairies]

I swear I don't intend to wall, it just kind of happens

[Prism]

The whole "confusion created" thing was in reference to Prism supposedly acting scummy on purpose to bait you, only for Infinity and I to notice it instead and jump on her. Rather than actually clear this up right away, she decides that

it's our fault for noticing the scummy thing and drags out the engagement for much longer than it needed to go on.

You literally quoted me repeatedly saying I didn't want to talk about it further. When I realize it's going on, I immediately correct it. It might be worth dragging on if it's scummy from me but yes, it is 100% your fault for both of your persistence in questioning something I repeatedly signaled I didn't want to talk about.

What reason would Town have to not clear that up as soon as it became a problem?

It's almost like

I wasn't trying to use it to get townread but instead get a read on Hectic.

I'm going to turn the Prism part back around on you here: If Prism has a history of self-hammering to mechanically clear herself, if she were town why would she threaten to do it in this setup instead of actually doing it? I read it as a threat like "I've done this before so watch out, take your vote off or I'll self-hammer" but her going back on it later made me feel like she was lying, and possibly had a role that couldn't come back after a hammer.

I have repeatedly quoted sections from other games where I make clear I don't enjoy that spiteful side of me and have actively fought against it. Whether I could succeed or not is one thing, acting "Why would she even try to resist?" and completely ignoring the answer+evidence presented is absolute horseshit that I have called out at least 3 times this game.

I said in the original post that I would not selfhammer despite the temptation. When Infinity unvoted in fear of the selfhammer, I made it clear I would not selfhammer. This was not a threat.

What is a threat is that I am legitimately willing to policy you if you keep ignoring that I have repeatedly said I do not want to play badly out of spite.

[Prism]

I am unsure if you are scum and choosing to ignore the 3-5 posts outlining exactly why I did not selfhammer+citing outside posts expressing the exact same sentiment or if you legitimately tune out anything against your pre-existing view.

Thinking I am unable to resist and am therefore scum is one thing. The inability to read, reject/accept, respond to, or even acknowledge the provided answer to your question despite it being handed to you on a silver platter repeatedly is inexcusably terrible.

[Prism]

The fact that you scumread me I can accept.

What is unacceptable is you completely putting your head in the fucking sand repeatedly and not even bothering to reject the answers I'm presenting you. It's horrific.

[Prism]

I don't think Hectic understands what scum Prism is like or what she plays for. Letting him townread me for the wrong reasons is inviting trouble later down the line if he is town.

I don't really want to get more explicit with detailing how I would hypothetically play this as scum.

This is deeply ironic and you are wildly, wildly offtrack in your interpretation.

I think fixing it by being more explicit would be in poor taste.

I would reflect on what Hectic townread about my posts recently, and think carefully about what 363 is suggesting.

Is this just referring to 356 to the present?

If so I will not clear it up. Anything before 356 I will gladly explain.

This is actually incredibly annoying and I want it over with.

[Explicit explanation]

It does not, not even close, but

I am sufficiently frustrated that I even had to go on that spiel for what was supposed to be a oneliner to feel out Hectic with to begin that I am stepping away for several hours.

Look how badly I kept baiting you and Infinity to keep talking about this, you can tell how badly I wanted to keep talking about it with you two haha

[Prism]

Spoilering the quote wall from the "Why wouldn't she just selfhammer?" point:

Spoiler: Quotewall

It's almost like those are objectively bad traits and bad things to do, and that I have been incredibly intentional about holding off on them this game.

I'm not saying I'm town because I threatened to selfhammer. I'm saying that scumreading me for it is a mistake, and asking why I didn't just do it if it's such an issue with me is like asking "Who cares about the diet, why didn't you just shovel the whole gallon of ice cream?"

My comment postgame in BoI:

Also, even though I alluded to it with my comments about being the worst offender, etc.: I do want to apologize to the game broadly, and to madeline specifically, for my attitude Day 2. That level of toxicity/spite was completely unacceptable, I needed to A) Not react so viciously to begin with B) Replace out before I hit the post button. I should have probably been forcereplaced at the point I submitted/claimed to have submitted a concession, because that was absolutely breaking rule #2 even if I continue to play to my wincon otherwise.

So that was completely over the line and I apologize; I'm not sorry about asking madeline to justify the read on me-that was necessary-but everything about how I went about it and how I treated the other players was unacceptable.

I had come into this day ready to reset and not be toxic, but that would not have made up for my previous behavior and I'm glad to see that the game just ended instead.

My last game, Perpetual Melo, I immediately forcereplaced myself the moment I insulted a site user

Acknowledging I have a bad trait and fighting it does not make me town or a saint, as I have some incentive to fake this narrative. I don't deserve praise for not gamethrowing; but saying "Well why didn't you just do it then?" is revolting.

To be more specific: Are you saying that I would be unable to restrain myself from selfhammering as town, or that I would not

want

to restrain myself to begin with?

Also I literally said "I will not selfhammer ever" to spur someone to revote me after unvoting specifically in fear of a selfhammer.

I won what I wanted with an unvote only to throw it back is a...viable but interesting thesis

We have absolutely been over this repeatedly and you have not once acknowledged the answer even to reject it.

[T3]

The amount of times I have been scumread for being oppotunistic as town lol

[Prism]

Deadline expires in

(expired on 2021-06-12 21:58:45).

While I have tried to be pretty patient with my voting, I want to bring this to collective attention.

[Lukewarm]

Lukewarm was very explicit about wanting someone to hammer ASAP, before you got a chance to weigh in. My being scum in that sentence there is a worst case ccounterfactual.

To be clear, it may have come across that way, but that was never my intention. I was not trying to convince anyone else to do it, I just said that I would have if my vote was free. That is all I planned to say about you getting hammered there, but Ydra questioned it so I explained more, and I think the more I talked about it the more it seemed like I wanted someone else to do it.

[Lukewarm]

As for the aside, maybe "tunnel" wasn't entirely the right word. I was referring to how you were the only player who didn't seem to fully tr lukewarm right off the bat and instead made an effort to push him and engage with him about things. In my head this could come from either town (wants to properly sort a slot everyone else has written as town to avoid town being played) or scum (wants to create some confusion on a slot that people are tring), so I wrote it off as interesting, but not alignment indicative on its own.

While catching up, I read hectic's comments on this, and it reminded me of something I wanted to mention.

Child, if fidget's questions directed at me were enough for you to comment on, what did you think of hectic voting and pushing me at one point? I feel like hectic's push on me was much stronger then anything Fidget did, so I am interested why Fidget's stood out, but you did not mention Hectic's